Why Sonic Frontiers is DEEPER Than You Think!
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- The philosophy of Sonic Frontiers explained! The hidden philosophy of the full story of Sonic Frontiers. My review/analysis explaining the overarching story of Sonic Frontiers and how free will and determinism are represented by Sonic and Sage.
Sonic Render Thumbnail by Twitter/@CYB3D128
RESOURCES:
The Case for Free Will
• The Case for Free Will
How Free Will Works
• How Free Will Works
The OBSERVER EFFECT of QUANTUM PHYSICS says: "Your THOUGHTS affect REALITY"
• The OBSERVER EFFECT of...
Determinism vs Free Will: Crash Course Philosophy
• Determinism vs Free Wi...
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I always thought that this game set in stone the idea that no matter if the universe reassures Sonic's down fall he'll fight against it with just his pure determination as if he was a anomaly in his very world... nice video
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Best part is he'd probably win too.
While the developers and fans that have played the game, have come to the realization that The End is death itself. I interpret it as Sonic defying fate. He’s told that his usual optimistic nature and naivety cannot outlast the evil he always fights, that unending battle, or that he’ll beat the odds every time. Oftentimes, the entire universe has been at stake. Yet Sage tells Sonic things will be different this time. Because it’s not a threat he’s fighting, but rather that he is causing it. Where the world tells Sonic: you’re naive nature will be crushed, you can’t always triumph and fight forever. Sonic responds: Maybe I will lose, but I will always have a reason to keep trying. He defies that disparity, knowing lives are on the line. Even Sage is influenced by Sonic, as her cold, calculating nature, and despair, later change to a bright hope. Because, like Sonic, she found a reason to hope, to fight for those she cares about, instead of accepting the data as she sees it: her father. To me, Frontiers isn’t just about the past vs the future, or stagnation vs moving on. It’s also about new beginnings, and how every end and beginning is met with hope vs despair.
The fact that Sage feels emotions is evident of her autonomy and is alive. Eggman may have programmed her, but if Orbot and Cubot are any indication, he designed her to develop on her own. To have personalities of their own. I mean, why else would those 2 make fun of him at every opportunity? Yet he keeps them.
Even the E-100s from Sonic Adventure had personalities, yeah they were stupid and didn’t get the right frog, but they were their own bots. He didn’t even dismantle them, he repurposed them. I know the Flicky inside played a role, but there was still a separate identity. And let’s not forget Omega who, while he doesn’t see it, has feelings like trust in Rouge and Shadow.
Sage seemed to be a basic AI Eggman installed into the Ancients’ system to gather data. But in gathering that data, the recorded memories and even the souls of the Ancients, she evolved into his daughter. She loved him and he loved her. Eggman has an IQ of 300, if he believes her to be alive, enough so to call her daughter, then she must be.
Then there's metal sonic, even some robots in sonic X to support your statement.
In sonic X, robotnik makes a robot designed for one specific purpose, the robot then, as if alive and human, gains a personality and cares for the students. This ofc made eggman want to demolish him, the robot then felt something it shouldn't, fear. Something about eggman and sonic as characters demolish concepts on the norm.
Eggman able to make sentience within mere objects and the ability to expand REASONABLY based on the infinite factors while it should have been finite as he's one man, and this with only an iq of 300?
And he explained sonic in this video, but to put it simply, sonic is outside fate, he's not binded by fate or causality atleast not in the grand scheme of things, this ties into his unpredictability and his ability to ascend at a whim, I don't meant his speed, I mean to advance adversities. In other words, sonic will never truly ever lose. Truthfully, if there WAS any determinism in anything sonic represents, it would be that. Sonic is what we can describe as an unstoppable force even when hit with an immovable object.
An IQ of 300 has never stopped Eggman from being delusional though if we follow that logic.
The final boss also pretty much claims to be a physical incarnation of the abstract concept of the end, and that even if it can somehow be stopped momentarily, it's ultimately unstoppable because eventually all things to do end (technically true), and that therefore it's pointless to fight, but eventually Sonic and Sage still prove it wrong, by succeeding in changing their fate that The End was so sure wouldn't be altered, and allowing everyone to keep on living. It was by their refusal to accept their fate that Sonic's friends are now able to carry out their goals set up throughout the story, that's why their arc were all about what they'll do in the future. They were faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, and both The End as well as Sage's earlier beliefs would affirm that means they should give up, but in resisting, and holding onto hope, no matter how small, it opened up the path for untapped potential to be realized. That's even the same principle for why Sage was able to be brought back, Eggman almost gave up the end but you can see how he just went "nah lol" and decided he wouldn't accept the circumstances he was met with.
The game seems to be setting up all the things it could be and showing that despite all the reasons the end seems inevitable, there's so much more it could become if it simply managed to hold on. The vocal tracks, in particular One Way Dream which is confirmed to be a reflection of Sega's outlook on the franchise, paint a similar picture when you listen to them with the same philosophy in mind, that instead of abandoning their past or letting it all go, it's only by embracing it and pushing onward in spite of any past failures or uncertain futures that they can reach something better. Seriously, try reading those lyrics in the context of the Sonic franchise and Sega's current stance, it's remarkable just how easily they fit together.
OhwaitaminuteisthatwhySageiscalledthat
Okay okay so like, people have pointed out how Sage is close to Sega, and wondered if there was any significance to that, and like... If Sage's viewpoint matches Sega by the end of the game... And she had the opposite belief at the start... And the whole reason Sega leaned so hard on the callbacks is to demonstrate how they're engaging with the franchise going forward... As opposed to how often they'd abandon their history and systems when trying to fix the direction of Sonic... Is that why?! Sage IS Sega????? Is that also why she'd get so hung up on data and probabilities, while Sonic and his friends simply believed? Is that in reference to how often the games were completely renovated due to titles not doing well? Like how so many people criticized Sega for ditching the focus Sonic's friends after '06? Am I just going crazy? Is there something here?? Is any of this even REAL???Help
🤯 Dude what a great comment! Yeah I totally forgot about how the final boss of the game is literally called “The End” and how both heroes managed to defeat it.
If that’s intentional on the writers part, its both brilliant and encouraging for the future content
Also, Big represents the option to just chill out even with everything going on.
We all need that lol
Honestly, the idea of not letting yourself be subject to the whims of fate or circumstance has always been a running theme in Sonic, even if it wasn't as blatant as it is in Frontiers.
Shadow's character arc of not letting his past define him, Silver's commitment to killing Sonic to change the fate of his dying world, Gamma and Omega going against their programming, Merlina from Black Knight trying to cheat fate by making the story immortal, Metal Sonic's identity crisis, Chip's duty to protect the world, etc.
Sonic's sense of freedom is what resonates with people from all walks of life who feel trapped and lack the agency to act in their best interests. I think the truth is that fate/destiny isn't a concept that truly exists in the Sonic franchise, but the idea of it is an inhibition to those who think it has more merit than it actually does.
I think Sage's very existence supports this. She's not predicting fate, but ascertaining likely outcomes. And because she was programmed by Eggman she's coded to act in his best interests. Over time, she gains autonomy by choosing to go against Eggman for his sake, and her outlook is challenged whenever she sees Sonic bonding with his friends. And by the end of the game, she learns that if she acts of her own accord instead of doing what she's 'meant' to do, she has the power to become her own person and develop her own sense of love and identity.
All in all, great video. 👍
Wow what beautiful comment! Glad you enjoyed the video!
This dude needs to play Acecombat, specifically, the translated japanese version. (Or the video explaining the story)
It absolutely toys with ideas of free will, machines having pre-destined destinies, among other things.
I think it is a gem of a story that needs all endings to truly understand it haha
Ooh I need to check it out!
I like Sage who’s once about determinism finishes the definition of determinism itself The End.
I figure everything is technically predetermined by the rules of causality. But in practise that isn't a problem because that just means our choices are all logical in some way based on their context. Wanting free will beyond this causality is basically asking to have a will that is unbounded even by itself, which doesn't make sense anymore. You will always choose what you will choose, and that is fine, because otherwise, you wouldn't be you anymore, nor could you trust yourself to ever make sound choices if there was a random chance you would choose something else.
It's difficult to explain, but I figure both determinism and free will are true and exist in union.
that's really good!
@@Armadder Thank you!
Bro I feel like you articulated something I've always struggled with for years. Beautifully said.
@@hunterwillis3775
That's good to hear. I can use a little ego boost now and then.
If the many words interpretation is true then this is false
Even when video games allow your choices to affect the storyline, you’re often still “on rails.” Sonic as a character is driven by freedom and thrills. Even the song lyrics run with the theme of battling fate. “I’m what you get when the stars align…”
I love these types of videos. Linking games with philosophy or overall thematics
Kind of the story of games and gamers, really
Sage is reality. We are going to one day put the game down one last time in the end.
Sonic is us living in the moment.
It's never about the destination, it's about the journey.
The debate on Maximal Autonomy kind of reminds of a villain from Metal Gear Rising named Monsoon. he is someone who has a nihilistic mindset about how free will is myth because he presumes that every decision a person makes is influenced by external factors. He has the belief that memes(an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture)are the DNA of the soul because humans personalities and ideals nothing but a byproduct of what type of “meme” you’ve been exposed to. He fails to realize that unlike genes differ in one specific way in than they can be self-reflected upon as person can become self-aware of the things in their lives that they have picked up from culture and learn to separate the good from the bad.
Also, getting close to those 10 minute videos! Love to see it
As someone who played Sonic Frontiers, this is literally the philosophy in the game:
Sage-The world will end!
Sonic-Cool, we'll stop it and delay it until I say so.
Sage-That dude literally killed all the Ancients!!
Sonic-Yeah and?
Sage-Are you kidding me right now?
Sonic-No u.
Sage-Why are you like this? Why is it so hard for you to accept that sometimes you can't be undefeatable!!!! YOU CAN BE DEFEATED! STOP AND PLEASE ACCEPT YOUR FATE!
Sonic-Nope, I am undefeatable, it's literally the song that plays when I fight Giganto, which by the way I wrecked like a Boss.
Sage-Why can't you just accept The End of all and just give up on everything?!?!? WHY WHY WHY DAMN IT!
Sonic-Because I don't wanna. Now excuse me, I'm gonna collect more portal gears. (leaves)
Sage-...
Eggman-Now you see why I hate that Hedgehog... and why I respect him as well?
It do be like that😂
1:50 "So break through it all" well done for dodging that pun
The one thing that we all have free will over that there is no doubt is how we choose to react to certain things if we choose to react in a good way, then we just might be able to get the good ending and me personally, I’d like to take that risk
I gotta say, this sheds a whole new light that I'd never thought I'd look into with Frontiers! This video was absolutely well put together! :D
However, talking about "pre-determined" paths and such, I'm kinda shocked you didn't bring up the Koco since they literally have the spirits of the ancients that are walking in their path.
Thanks glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, the Koco are a really interesting story device in Frontiers. In retrospect, there was a lot more things I could've included in the video to bolster my points made lol.
The writers 🔥🔥🔥✍️✍️✍️
This video is legit
And it definitely seems to be the theme of the game especially when thinking about the theme songs from the boss fights like undefeatable and break through it all, etc
honestly i think that both Free Will and Determinism are correct; you cannot get far without free will, but free will alone can't get you through everything. it's a very complicated mixture of circumstances you have been born under and how things are going around you combined with your own will and what you decide to do
You're saying that there's a balance between free will and determination. Seems like a slight unbalance causes unwanted strain to happen. A variable of free will based on your current determination and how you've been treated and trained.
I do have A lot of free will of playing too much Video games, but I don't have this capability of talking to people in real life, so it's like a tri-balance between Free will, Determination, and Capability. Interestingly, I figured out that a strong (parental or idol) (attention or connection) causes a strong shift for this balance, focusing towards the balance point, possibly towards perfect balance.
From what I've observed: Determination = Performance, Free will = Choices, and Capability = Training (being Lectured also counts).
Seems like I also observed if that balance from a person, failed to being at least slightly balanced, then there's a chance that person chooses someone else in hopes to restore this balance.
I hate it when people underestimate the deepness in fiction for kids. This is an example of focusing on the message and not the meta, just look at colors, lost world, sonic forces, ect. If you want to know what happens when you focus on the meta, and not the message.
Really making me think about bigger things. Great video.
Thank you for this, this awesome!
Thanks glad you enjoyed it!
6:50
Damn, you actually went there. Lol.
Nah it's okay, it's actually gem you are aware of those findings. Very based.
Sonic-See? I am undefeatable, because I can break through it all and find my flame, that is why I'm Here to change destiny, so cope n seethe, Sage.
Sage-Bruh...
The real kicker for free will is what causes you to make the choices that you do. When you're presented with a choice, these are basically your only merits for making one:
-Assessment, implying determinism
-Randomness, implying mindlessness
Like, that's literally it. I can't think of anything else. When you make a choice, it's always for some reason, even if that reason is rejecting all of the internal criteria and therefore just randomly picking something. Even if there is randomness in the universe, we can't exactly control what happens, even if we make choices. The actually ideal thing to do is embrace causation, which enables you to make meaningful decisions with concrete consequences, even if they are predetermined. Philosophy Engineered has a great video about free will, although it has a swear word in it. It's a great watch for anyone covering the problem of free will.
Also I found Sage to be a very awkward character, and her relationship with Eggman also kinda seemed shoehorned and not making much sense in it's points. She seems very hesitant, conflicted, dissmissive, emotional and just overall awkward. Eggman probably designed her to be a simulated emotional persona connected to a superintelligent command-line API, rather than just outright ASI, in order to keep her in check. Otherwise, if her function was purely to serve him, Eggman would become the servant while she just manipulates him and everything around her to maximise the amount of doable requests he makes.
I don't assume even superintelligent AI would employ any evaluative systems of determinism rather than probabilities, weights and biases.
Wow, excellent comment. Really makes me think haha! But I guess a lot of tension between free will and determinism is how we actually define free will. As I've said in my video, people who deny free will tend to equate free will to maximal autonomy, which proponents of libertarian free will deny.
I disagree that assessment implies determinism, to make an assessment, you have to WILL yourself to look at evidence or to assess the choice.
@@axiom6000 But is the process of assessment random or deterministic?
@@FireyDeath4 What do you mean when you say random and determined?
@@axiom6000 Determined things are fixed by constants or strictly-applied physics, functions, algorithms and axioms. Random things are not determined and usually produce different results based on no factors at all. Also, even if you do experience something empirically random, you won't be able to prove it, and you could even just be on an arbitrary timeline on a branch of every universal possibility (i.e. level III multiverse). As far as I can tell, everything is either deterministic or random by definition, and free will is mostly defined by the ignorance of those factors when it comes to subjective metaphysical liberty
So to recap: Sage believes in Canon events 🕷 and Sonic is fighting the canon event of his demise.
so basically sage is miguel and sonic is miles
@@Dog1167 yes
Awesome video!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
I always think the arguments against free will is dumb. If everything is predetermined, why don’t I just sit down and do nothing? Was I “predetermined” to make this extremely stupid and out of character decision or did I have the free will to make a point out of spite?
1:35 YOURE TELLING ME THAT SONIC IS NOT A CANON EVENT???
Good work! 👍
Thanks for watching!
The End, this franchise’s Greater Scope Villain, undoubtedly embodies nihilism and through its perspective, life, existence and the universe are worthless, meaningless and in its words, teeming with chaos, due to how unpredictable it is, and so, by destroying all of existence and reverting the universe to nothing, The End believes that true order can be obtained and took on the role as a personification of death to do so, intending on bringing about the end of everything as we know it. However, its "noble" goals are merely delusions brought on by its arrogant nature and nihilistic thoughts, as it forces its beliefs onto countless civilizations because it views itself as the ultimate authority, showing that its delusions are solely motivated by ego. Subsequently, while it does believe what it's doing is right, it isn't above toying with others for no reason other than sheer sadism, showing that it takes pleasure in what it does.
Ironically, despite the fact that Dr. Eggman is Sonic's archenemy, The End serves as a foil to Sonic and the complete antithesis of him, even more so than Eggman and other villains before it. The End is a nihilistic eldritch abomination that wants to box others into a world anathema of light or existence, and attempts to crush the hope of those that confront it, making it an embodiment of order. Sonic, on the other hand, is a free-spirited being that embraces the freedom of others, and always pushes forward no matter how hard things seem, and encourages others to do the same, which makes Sonic an embodiment of chaos, being the metaphorical middle finger of The End’s beliefs.
Wow this is such a deep and insightful comment. Yeah, when making this video I failed to mention that the final boss of the game is literally called, “The End” and Sonic defeats him.
@@Ranni While Sonic and Sage defeated The End, it didn’t died since it stated that it can reincarnate in another form or its true form
I heard that: hastsune miku's cousin. Dope👍
Noice video!!!! Also... sorry to ask this, but does anyone know what the music in the background of this part is? (4:15) I'm assuming it's something from Frontiers but it's so good!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video! Yeah, the song is called "Talk" from the Sonic Frontiers OST.
@@RanniCool!! Thank you so much! And thanks for replying! :)
All I can say is-I WISH U WERE MY SCIENCE TEACHER
I wasnt a big fan of the story in this game that being said you made a good video covering the storyline from a pov i hadnt considered yet. Good job
Thanks Armin!
Sir they are not furries,mobians were trade marked before furries were even a thing,1991 beats 1995 which furries were named at,meaning sonic was before furries
“Mobians” only apply to the DIC cartoons and Archie comics. Not the games.
@@hydrocityshark I still call em mobians
@@Mikeprower ok
Lore of The Philosophy of Sonic Frontiers EXPLAINED momentum 100
Sonic frontiers is indeed deeper than we all think. A few octaves deeper actually. Mans balls definitely dropped lol
i LOVED the graceful , godly energy you put into this video , absolutely LOVED it . great job !!!!!!!! this really left a huge positive impact & reminder on me.
2:42
Is Sonic alive?
He always has a tendency to escape death itself.
I don't believe in free will and though I do have reasons that stem from our scientific knowledge, my main reason is that there are a lot of definitions for free will, and they are always either too vague to mean anything and so can still work within other models, or when taken to their logical conclusion, don't sound so free at all.
On the point of quantum mechanics, yes, there are aspects of the world that are not deterministic but instead governed by probability; this doesn't point towards free will, however, because for something to be truly random, you can't have any say in the outcome, hence the "will" aspect in free will is negated. Also, if we were to say that we have free will because of quantum mechanics, you would also have to say that an electron has free will, which most would agree is absurd. No matter how you look at it, you can't seem to have "free" and "will" working in tandem. It's like an oxymoron.
The reason the discussion of free will vs fate has been going on for millennia is because one is nearly indistinguishable from the other due to the illusion of free will. Consider this: before a calculation is completed in our head, we cannot know the outcome, or else the calculation wouldn't be necessary. This means that, up until the calculation is complete, it has an element of illusory freedom, even though its outcome does still follow from deterministic principles, plus some random probability.
In my own opinion, What truly matters is not weather free will exists or not, but our attitude. Allowing ourselves to accept us as we are and working with the will that we have, free or not, to make the difference we'd like to see in the world. I would say that the real difference between Sonic and Sage is that Sage feels bound by her fate whereas Sonic is willing to persevere regardless of fate. After all, (correct me If I'm wrong, I don't remember all of the dialogue perfectly) Sonic never states that Sage is wrong, simply that he'll keep trying anyway.
Nah. Most this is just subjects and holds no base. Saying that theirs "no free will" is just dumb.
You can argue that's its determined on paper but in execution its completely different. The future doesn't exist as there probably an infinite possibility to choose from. If the many words interpretation is real the it renders free will. It's that the election has free will its that the election is random and its only possibilities until see obverse or wave collapse.
I believe in free will because science can also back it up as well as religion
@@sonicthehedgehog1606 You say practice differs from theory, however, I'd like to ask how. If there's a new element in practice that allows for free will, how would we have not been able to account for this pretty large discrepancy in our models? there's no free will described in the standard model. Or are you referring to emergence, where free will results as a complex product of deterministic and indeterministic laws. If so, I should point out that emergent rules cannot clash with the underlying rules, they must follow from them. For example, indeterminism cannot arise from determinism but chaos can.
You beg the question when you state that there are infinite possibilities to choose from since that statement requires your conclusion (free will existing) to be true. We also don't know if the many worlds interpretation is correct so you can't use it as a point of evidence. You also misrepresent the many worlds interpretation by referring to a collapse of the wave function when this theory specifically states that such a thing never occurs, and instead the wave function expands when observed.
At the end you appeal to science and religion without having provided good evidence from one and none from the other. Furthermore, I'm generally unconvinced by appeals to religion since religions can be used to argue almost any point you desire and so is unproductive in debate.
Overall, you haven't convinced me, especially as you haven't tackled all my arguments, but I'd be happy to hear further from you.
@@Asodym We could argue that free will is that point you had made about Sonic's perseverence, being one where you cling onto those few beliefs you have and try putting effort into the future you are wanting to (for some personal or even shared reasons) fight for.
My belief is quite close to Sonic's in that regard, holding some bit of hope is sometimes the bit of freedom we need to keep going.
I think this is the best explanation for the debate I’ve read so far. It’s hard to concretely explain these two concepts, and what’s more important isn’t even the concepts themselves. Who cares if what we do is actually our doing or not? It’s how we choose to view our actions. I’m gonna die someday, that’s an inevitable fate that I can’t control other than its time, but whether or not my actions before my death matter itself doesn’t matter because I find value in what I do. It’s also why I don’t really care for philosophy. If I’m enjoying my life the way I want to, then that’s all that really matters to me, regardless of anything else.
What
Sonic Frontiers its literally Xenoblade Chronicles
I think I've heard people make that comparison before!