Good update on the p52 folks, interesting rudder design. I recently tried the turkish ice cream, as you say its elastic in texture and a small pot was very filling, not bad but still like the milk version. Take care.
I’m so falling in love with Turkey and thank you both for taking us along on this beautiful adventure! The ice cream is very unique but I believe I would pass and only because it has the appearance of nasal discharge! Lol 😂 The rudder on your Portofino is truly a piece of art and should hang in a gallery. I’m so impressed with the ingenuity that this company puts into their designs. I am so anticipating what Eli will do with her interior touches! Stay safe my friends 😊
Nasal Discharge :)))! And yes, the engineering expertise at Portofino is like no other with them providing and advising the experts of ways to change and improve various designs! We will share many of these systems in the future from air cons, to power and cutlass bearing designs.... I am also waiting for Eli to choose the interior designs and colours!!! What an exciting journey...
Great show guys. I do get a sense of appreciation though about anything less simplistic...furling main sails, folding rudders etc. Seawind and Gunboat have a cassette system for beaching / shallow water. My alloy cat was also cassette. Worked perfectly. You're gamer than me. Cheers
True, Yet the cassette type rudders are susceptible to damage when hitting submerged objects as the cassette is attached to fibreglass superstructure and they have no 'give' in them, whereas this is an aluminium superstructure.
@@gbsailing9436 Every rudder is susceptible to damage if you hit something. Especially aluminium. Gunboat 68 (Tosca) destroyed it's rudder whilst crossing the Atlantic and the cassette was undamaged. In fairness, GB's are full carbon fibre and not soft like aluminium. A bent rudder will jamb and steer in circles....Bismarck
There are pros and cons with each system. The ones that go up into a slot in the transom means you lose steerage as soon as you start to raise them and the Seawind type cassettes will break if hit. We maintain steerage ability when the rudder is up and expect the rudder to just break a 50c pin if hit and then we can replace it in 15 minutes from inside the hull. We will have a skeg that I mentioned that will (should) deflect anything below the fixed section of the rudder so we hop;e this system is more resilient than everything short of the full solid mini keel and skeg hung rudder (Delos style).
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Ture Jon, I think your system has the fail safes that give a better system overall. Nothing is perfect of course. The minute you decide to design something and put pen to paper, you are limiting you design in some way. A line on paper is by definition a barrier to something on the other side of it! Cheers.
Great video guys… wife and I are two engineers here… you bring up a great point regarding the lateral forces the rudder will encounter as the tide goes out and the boat sways side to side… the other concern we thought of (which may not be warranted) was - with the hollowed out section on the rudder to allow it to fold up, would that not sink in the sand more depending on bottom composition and potentially impact or weight your prop and shaft?? That’s the last thing you would want to bend What is the clearance between the rudder folded up and the prop??
They might be going to close up the fin forward of the 'pin' where the rudder rotates, that might help sinking, but they may choose to leave it open to help with maintenance and cleaning. It might be that much of that section of the fin will be solid Al billet with only the area milled out for the swinging section of the rudder. We'll soon find out I guess. Or perhaps Jon will answer below.
Hi Mike, we were also in the process of designing the skeg that will protect the prop and rudder and with a flat bottom that will take only weight and prevent any pressure on the rudder. We will share that design shortly.... Clearance is 35mm from rudder to prop open and probably about 15-20cm closed.
Awesome, can u burn some white sage when back on boat, so as to not carry restless spirits with u, just waft it around the whole boat and yourselves, saying please leave if u are here to cause trouble. John I'm with u on the sideways movement, just hoping that pivot point is capable of holding our precious Barefoot Bounty 🤣😁 are u having bowthrusters? Thanks for the vlog, great to see u both looking beautiful and so happy, much xx
Thanks Karlene and yes, we have sage and Eli is onto the cleansing processes..... Yes we are having jet thrusters to act as bow thrusters without the hassle factor of the big hole and blades and electrics that always require maintenance... Love and blessings to you too Karlene!!!!
Hi guys, suggest you take a look at the "Delos" sailing channel for their aluminum boat build. They will have a Skeg hung rudder with a shaft drive also.
Problem with this design is the rudder is way to short. Also with the mini keels performance is not going to be good upwind. That design is a cruising catamaran not a performance cat design. You can't have it all. With boats its all about compromise. My original deign also had a center board however that was way too complete and expensive to build so I changed the design to daggerboard designs. The portifino design may look like a cruising cat however she is a performance cat design.
Hi Doug, yes we are very well aware of the De Villiers design for Delos and theirs is a very traditional set up while we don;t have the minikeels to get improved upwind performance and when up we will have only 70cm draft to get up shallow rivers and mangroves. We are adding a skeg to protect the prop and rudder which we will share later as the limited space around the prop in that traditional design reduces the performance under power significantly. We will share in later episodes...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 With my design the daggerboards are basically a mumby 48 design. Very simple and easy to build. No sheaves required. For the rudders its basically 2 mini daggerboards controlled by a push pull jefa steering system. Very simple and very reliable design. Going with a center board design is a very good design its just very expensive and complex to build and not a one man job. With mini keels you are limited on what the boat can preform. Also in really bad storm conditions with both boards lifted and the series drogue deployed the boat has no lateral resistance and the large waves can glide under the boat.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 700mm draft not bad mine is a but more at 762mm with boards up and rudders partly up. This way I can still steer even in shallow waters. With the portifino design you can also steer as well with kickback rudder design you cannot.
You are so right about the ability to steer still with the rudders up - a great bonus for both our systems. Yes that issue you mention of the minikeels always being down does increase the risk of capsize and it seems that many folk are NOT AWARE of that risk! Also being able to keep the windward daggerbaord down while the leeward one is up when sailing across the wind reduces capsize risk because you slide sideways if you ever fly a hull and prevent capsize...
So good! -- QUESTION -- We were watching Parlay Revival and saw their most recent hull failure (this Sunday's video) where the bow deck peeled back three feet while sailing. It had a factory installed block for the lines (on the bow deck) but the deck was "glued" to the hull, but only glued in a few places. The entire deck just lifted and bent back in 12 knots of wind. How typical is these terrible construction method with fiberglass Catamarans? We are a bit freaked out to keep seeing so many failures and cracks on these Lagoon boats. Even Outremer 55 and 52 have had several failures. AWEN cracked their bow with a little collision and Great Circle Cat had serious rudder and hull damage with water ingress. Maybe Aluminum is the only proper material for a Cat build.?
Hi Coleen, yes very good points. The main difference is that the failure on the Lagoon with Colin is because of the defect in the structural building of the Lagoon that is throughout the boats. This is just another example of the inadequate structural integrity that concerned me when I started looking at production boats about 15 years ago... The difference with the Awen and Great Circle is that those cats are built appropriately but the basic problem with GRP / fibreglass and even carbon but to a lesser extent is that they all break and crack very easily if you hit rocks, harbour walls, containers, whales or other boats. You just have to look at the Sailing Dauntless Leopard 50 that basically had its bottom ripped out over a reef and those examples you give show that fibreglass breaks VERY easily and opens up wide and fast. Steel boats are usually pulled off reefs and survive but fibreglass ones seldom do... Aluminium certainly has advantages but it is not "the only proper" material to use, you just need to understand the limitations and risks.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ....we noticed that fiberglass can work with traditional sailboats as they can be built heavy and strong. But Cats seem to have this strange weight vs size thing going on where they need it to be super thin and light to be effective, and hence, vulnerable. Seems like fiberglass works best on regular sailboats but aluminum or steel may be the magic material on Catamarans. So weird to see how dangerous fiberglass can be when built thin. -- QUESTION -- Am I seeing this correctly.. on Outremers and Privildge, are they putting a single layer of fiberglass, on each side of foam, and that's it? Their construction videos show what seems to be a single see through fiberglass layer being applied. I thought it would be 20 layers or something. So so thin.
I am concerned that the slot in the rudder that protrudes down when folded facing the sea bottom will get full of mud and sand so prevent the rudder from folding back down. I suggest rubber flange be developed to plug it Simple to install before it bottoms
Yes that is a good point Kimble. As it might bottom out and dig in esp if the beach is lumpy, and to protect both the rudder and prop, we are adding a skeg that will take any weight the boat has at that point so the rudder will not touch or dig into the sand / mud. We will share that design shortly but it is quite a clever design to take the weight and also allow lateral movement as we lift off the sand. If we're ever in really soft mud that the boat sinks significantly into, we will use your plug idea to keep the rudder section clean. Thanks very much!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 maybe if your in Perth or Geraldton by the time I sell my house you can have this one as I'm taking nothing with me , Breville or I leave it in the house ... hopefully sold by xmas
Hi Jon and Eli from Cronulla, Sydney. Hmmmm, I was thinking the ice cream might contain Pectin, but clearly I was wrong again! I am still not able to get my iPhone to load up the Tuffminds App. Have Apple fixed the issue indicating it's just my phone, or are they still working on it? I can use the website of course. Hey, you didn't tell us last weekend why Rafaele's chin was blue. I couldn't work it out, my only thought being except of course the typical blue pen leak. So what gives? Clearly, this was filmed at that time as well. Will you be installing props that give an 'overdrive' option? On a brighter note, is Martina single? 🤣🤣🤣 Give her my phone number and I'll sponsor her a free trip to Australia and show her around. 🤣 Another great episode this week. Ok, that's all from me. God bless and Fair 💨's and Following 🌊's.
Hi Garth, just make sure that you load the "TUFMINDS APP" and not the old version "TUFMINDS" which does not work.... Yes that was all fixed at the same time and we are just sharing different points with the sailing in Turkey to give the variety. You are right too - it was a pen mark on Raffa's beard - he was scratching his chin with his pen and thought the cap was on! :))) PS Tough luck - Martina is with someone - sorry!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 OH Ah ok, I'll delete the current one on my phone and download a new copy. Ah Ha! I thought so !!! Oh Damn, My heart is broken. 🥺😩💔Cheers
A common failure in fiberglass boats that go aground is that the prop shaft support strut, just ahead of the prop, has a small area metal base. An impact to the shaft can punch the strut upward and right through the hull. This floods the engine room damaging the engine and electrical system. You may not always ground on a flat bottom where the rudder/skeg will save the prop shaft. One rock sticking up in the wrong spot can still get to the shaft. I see that the strut as shown is ahead of the watertight rudder crash bulkhead. It should be behind it. I expect that on your metal boat that there is a keel stringer on edge along the centerline of the hull. If the strut sits right on the stringer then the strut will probably break before it punches through the hull. You may be less vulnerable to this problem than most, but on fiberglass boats it is a real issue. See the "Wandering Hillbilly" RUclips channel. A fairly minor grounding resulted in mass destruction. I see in an earlier comment that you are working on a skeg design to protect the prop shafts. This is an excellent idea. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. These things are always a compromise between several conflicting factors. No free lunch. For max damage resistance Malcom Tennant and PowerPlay / LongReach Catamaran designs are interesting. You haven't talked about rig design recently. As I commented a while back, don't get the roller reefing boom. It's still a bad idea. Turkey looks so good. Thanks for showing it to us.
Thanks for all the info Jack! Our skeg that is now designed will take all the weight and keep the rudder above the sand. When we beach, we always stand in the water and check the beaching area for unexpected rocks or coral and to make sure the sand is soft (not sharp; coral that looks like sand) as that will rub off the antifoam or scracth the hull. We will share the design in the next few episodes. That back compartment is also watertight so there is nothing else in that area to get damaged from leakage if it ever happens... What is it about the Boom furling system that makes you so adamant to avoid it? We have never used one and obviously have had mixed user reviews.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 The biggest problem with roller boom reefing/furling is that as soon as you reduce sail area you have no mainsail outhaul adjustment. You're stuck with the foot tension you get and can't change it. Slightly changing the boom to mast angle before rolling can effect the shape you end up with, but then it is what it is. Reefing will ,of course, be done in stronger winds, and that is exactly when you will want to depower by flattening the mainsail. If the leech of the main creeps forward as you roll then you're stuck with a baggy/deep draft sail shape and can't do anything to change it. I've seen cases where the crew rolled foam rubber strips into the boom trying to get a flatter shape. I think they used strips cut from those "wet noodle" swimming pool toys. Having 4 outhauls, 1 main and 3 reefs, adds to the line clutter problem, and when going to first reef the slack in the reef 2 and 3 lines flailing around the boom end can tangle. I like to have all 3 reef lines led through adjacent stoppers so as the main is lowered I can pull in all 3 lines as a group and control the amount of slack flailing around. Then winch the last few feet to tension the mainsail. A possible combination system that I imagine but have not actually tried, if you really want the roller, would be to have reefing clews built into the mainsail leech. Then you can roll the main up and down as the standard roller, but if you need to flatten have a single high power/multi part outhaul with a hook that you hook into one of the clews to control foot tension. It would be necessary to unhook this when rolling in or out and then reset it, so multiple journeys out to the end of the boom would be required, but your coachroof design looks like it allows easy access to the boom. With only one outhaul clutter would be reduced. If you're happy with the mainsail shape, just leave the outhaul disconnected for simplicity, but if you need to flatten you can. How the reinforced clews would roll into the boom should be considered. There may be a limit on how thick and strong they can be and still roll in cleanly. Not having full battens is another downside if the roller prohibits this. No square top mainsail either. Battcar style mast tracks with full length battens are excellent. With full battens lazy jacks can easily control the lowered mainsail with no spillage. You can lower from the cockpit without having to do anything at the mast or boom as long as your track is clean and lubed. If the track is dirty you still may have to pull down the last few feet of sail, but most of it will drop to the boom. Since a fully battened sail will flutter/flog less the sail has a longer lifespan and is quieter. When hoisting a roller boom main that uses a "bolt rope" style mast track the rope stitched to the luff of the sail has to feed into the V shaped entry to the mast track. If the halyard is hoisted slower than the than the sail is unrolling the luff can have excess slack at the track entry and wedge the boltrope in the V. This will be more likely as the sail ages and the boltrope and track have wear. The sail can continue hoisting but be outside the track. Some boltrope masts have replaceable "feeders" at the track entry, but on others the V is part of the mast and can't be replaced. Controlling a powered halyard winch to synchronize the hoist with the unrolling can be tricky. This is especially true if the self tailer is used. It can help to hand tail the winch so it can be slipped to avoid excessive pull, or the halyard could be hand pulled/hand cranked so you could feel the tension. If the roller had a clutch so the halyard could pull the sail to unroll it without requiring the roller motor to unroll this could help, but I haven't seen this. Battcar mast track systems don't suffer from any of this. The cars never leave the track so they don't have to be put back on. To summarize: No outhaul, no full battens, no square top mainsail, no good.
The interior nav station is also a steering station - it will be seen on some of the early videos with the plan showing the wheel but if you send me your email address (here in comments or to drjohnmcintosh@tpg.com.au), I will send you the layout design with the internal wheel. We have chosen to use electric steering for internal steering and not the full wheel to save space.
Yes there will be a skeg and protection but is being refined and we will share shortly! We are trying to minimise water flow disturbance that occurs with an enclosed prop....
Very cool rudder, is there an emergency tiller tied to the step? I have seen boats with what looks like a hex receiver on a surface which allows for a tiller to turn the rudders in an emergency. It may be there and just not shown in the cad file. -MG
Thanks again MG, we have dual steering systems with electric and hydraulic that are separate and I expect to have the plug in to add a manual tiller if needed.
Do you know how many layers of fiberglass were used on your Leopard Cat? Was it one layer on each side of the foam core? I think that modern cats are now using a single layer on most parts.
Hi Colleen, I don;t know the answer to that although I believe that is the case. The other question is also what is the weight (thickness) of the single layer as that will change the strength and undoubtedly where there are joins to bulkheads and decks, there will be extra layers. Leopards are the strongest built production cats in my opinion as I have seen many examples of Leopards surviving when Lagoons would not....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ...agreed that Leopard seem to be very well built. We watch Sailing Sisu doing a bulkhead and fiberglass tour and it was very impressive. Everything looks square and strong and all joints were tabled and fiberglassed. They even had a steel I beam acting as a support in critical areas.
Rudder seems far too complicated. The obvious answer is a stern hung rudder. In fact I think every ocean going yacht should have such. Easy to repair, even at sea. Can swing up without damage.
Yes, we did consider the transom hung rudder and there are certainly benefits as you list. We had a transom hung rudder on a 27 foot monohull we had and yes, I did have to fix it at seas as the bolts became loose and we were taking on water... The down sides are the interference and risk when reversing into marinas/ ports, when swimming off the back, possibly less strong and the aesthetics.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I was thinking you could have a sky lounge that doesnt effect windage much, if any at all . Basically have a couch section where the backs of the seats ratchet down flat, like the seats on the front lounge area of FP Saba 50, etc... If you want to minimise it further, you could have a a clever mechanism where the flat laying seats sink down into the base and rise up really effortlessly and instantaneously You could get away with half a meter tall of bulk and still have a roof lounge very similar to Leopard 50.Just add some laminate decking or similar, nice pillow covers and it would be just about as nice.
So basically the upper half of the rudder has no hydrodynamical lift as it lacks a proper trailing edge. On the contrary, as it's hollow there will be a lot of flow disturbance. Weird design...
Hi Ozolli, I am not sure if the CAD drawings lose the 3D effect but all the segments of the rudder have the usual aerofoil shape and the top; section just does not rotate upwards so we will maintain our steerage as we are beaching the boat.... It is hollow so it is light but both sides have smooth aerofoil shape - you saw the rudder cut in half to show the interior structure.
I am not a fan of this design. Its too complex. I am going with daggerboard rudders for my design. I have now decided to use aluminum for my build as I have found a new way of curving the aluminum without an industrial english wheel. Welding is not the issue it was curving 5 and 6 millimeter aluminum plate.
Thanks for sharing, Carols - we had daggerboard in our 42 foot performance that I built and Eli and I sailed for 20 years and only twice did we lost the sacrificial segments but they did take a bit to repair - hence our choice to go with the kick up centreboards that can then just be rotated down again. But these are all personal choices and I'm sure you will have success with the daggerboards too! We are very interested in how you bend the AL plates without an English wheel - please let us know (unless it is a commercial secret!) Portofino built their own English wheel from scratch as they have the engineering expertise and they chose that pathway... Keen to get more info from you Carlos on the bending and what size of boat and design are you building?
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All commercial english wheels are self built. The thing is huge weighs in over 1 metric ton and takes up lots of space. Problem is that is takes a very skilled and professional people to operate that thing. which I don't have either. This is why wood epoxy was my choice of material. I can easily curve 4mm plywood. Problem with that method is it takes alot of work and there are lots of steps involved.Since I am building in Europe and its self build I am limited to 15 meter max boat length however it does not have to be CE certified which means I don't have to build with an english wheel. With an english all the plates are places horizontal and you must use the full plate 2m by 6m whenever possible. Again with a one man build this is not possible. So I will build the plates vertical instead and use a press brake so all the curved parts will be 48 inches maximum width. This method would not pass a CE inspection but for self build its fine. My press brake design is very simple and easy to build and does not take alot of space.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.
@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.
Love the Portofino updates. I am getting more excited every time.
Good to hear, Barry - us too!!
The Portofino 52 looks like such a great boat. I can't wait to see the end product. I wish you both all the very best.
Thanks so much!!!
Looking so good, every video I am more and more impressed with the PF line, Raff is amazing. 72 more sleeps!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Absolutely!!!! We are looking forward to meeting you both soon too!
Good update on the p52 folks, interesting rudder design. I recently tried the turkish ice cream, as you say its elastic in texture and a small pot was very filling, not bad but still like the milk version. Take care.
Thanks for the info, Ian and yes, we too prefer the milk version...
Love what you guys do to help people! ❤💙💜💛💚
Thanks Jane, it's nice to make a difference and help folk out.
Looks all very well designed and strong. Love the updates and love the journey. Thanks
Nice to hear fro you again Juergen! Thanks!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I’m always waiting for your weekly updates!!! Even when I don’t write… looking forward for the next video!!
:))
I love your poetic description style it makes the Turkish market come alive
I also think the Portofino is amazing
Perhaps in the near future for me!
Thanks Kimble - would love to have you join the Portofino family and glad yo unlike the videos!
nice quiet spot
Thanks Geoff for your support!
I’m so falling in love with Turkey and thank you both for taking us along on this beautiful adventure! The ice cream is very unique but I believe I would pass and only because it has the appearance of nasal discharge! Lol 😂 The rudder on your Portofino is truly a piece of art and should hang in a gallery. I’m so impressed with the ingenuity that this company puts into their designs. I am so anticipating what Eli will do with her interior touches! Stay safe my friends 😊
Nasal Discharge :)))! And yes, the engineering expertise at Portofino is like no other with them providing and advising the experts of ways to change and improve various designs! We will share many of these systems in the future from air cons, to power and cutlass bearing designs.... I am also waiting for Eli to choose the interior designs and colours!!! What an exciting journey...
Great show guys.
I do get a sense of appreciation though about anything less simplistic...furling main sails, folding rudders etc. Seawind and Gunboat have a cassette system for beaching / shallow water. My alloy cat was also cassette. Worked perfectly. You're gamer than me. Cheers
True, Yet the cassette type rudders are susceptible to damage when hitting submerged objects as the cassette is attached to fibreglass superstructure and they have no 'give' in them, whereas this is an aluminium superstructure.
@@gbsailing9436
Every rudder is susceptible to damage if you hit something. Especially aluminium. Gunboat 68 (Tosca) destroyed it's rudder whilst crossing the Atlantic and the cassette was undamaged. In fairness, GB's are full carbon fibre and not soft like aluminium. A bent rudder will jamb and steer in circles....Bismarck
@@ahminmabed5166 True, if you hit something big enough it will break. gunboats tend to sail much quicker than most, so that would be understandable.
There are pros and cons with each system. The ones that go up into a slot in the transom means you lose steerage as soon as you start to raise them and the Seawind type cassettes will break if hit. We maintain steerage ability when the rudder is up and expect the rudder to just break a 50c pin if hit and then we can replace it in 15 minutes from inside the hull.
We will have a skeg that I mentioned that will (should) deflect anything below the fixed section of the rudder so we hop;e this system is more resilient than everything short of the full solid mini keel and skeg hung rudder (Delos style).
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Ture Jon, I think your system has the fail safes that give a better system overall. Nothing is perfect of course. The minute you decide to design something and put pen to paper, you are limiting you design in some way. A line on paper is by definition a barrier to something on the other side of it! Cheers.
Great video guys… wife and I are two engineers here… you bring up a great point regarding the lateral forces the rudder will encounter as the tide goes out and the boat sways side to side… the other concern we thought of (which may not be warranted) was - with the hollowed out section on the rudder to allow it to fold up, would that not sink in the sand more depending on bottom composition and potentially impact or weight your prop and shaft?? That’s the last thing you would want to bend
What is the clearance between the rudder folded up and the prop??
They might be going to close up the fin forward of the 'pin' where the rudder rotates, that might help sinking, but they may choose to leave it open to help with maintenance and cleaning. It might be that much of that section of the fin will be solid Al billet with only the area milled out for the swinging section of the rudder. We'll soon find out I guess. Or perhaps Jon will answer below.
Hi Mike, we were also in the process of designing the skeg that will protect the prop and rudder and with a flat bottom that will take only weight and prevent any pressure on the rudder. We will share that design shortly.... Clearance is 35mm from rudder to prop open and probably about 15-20cm closed.
Your videos always bring me joy❤
Glad to hear Leanne!
What a stunning video. The editing and music were amazing. Stay Tuff! Your journey to help others is so uplifting. Portafino is looking great.
Thank you so much, Crystal for your kind words! Hope you're keeping well and enjoying each moment!!!
Awesome, can u burn some white sage when back on boat, so as to not carry restless spirits with u, just waft it around the whole boat and yourselves, saying please leave if u are here to cause trouble. John I'm with u on the sideways movement, just hoping that pivot point is capable of holding our precious Barefoot Bounty 🤣😁 are u having bowthrusters? Thanks for the vlog, great to see u both looking beautiful and so happy, much xx
Thanks Karlene and yes, we have sage and Eli is onto the cleansing processes..... Yes we are having jet thrusters to act as bow thrusters without the hassle factor of the big hole and blades and electrics that always require maintenance... Love and blessings to you too Karlene!!!!
Hi guys, suggest you take a look at the "Delos" sailing channel for their aluminum boat build. They will have a Skeg hung rudder with a shaft drive also.
Problem with this design is the rudder is way to short. Also with the mini keels performance is not going to be good upwind. That design is a cruising catamaran not a performance cat design. You can't have it all. With boats its all about compromise. My original deign also had a center board however that was way too complete and expensive to build so I changed the design to daggerboard designs. The portifino design may look like a cruising cat however she is a performance cat design.
Hi Doug, yes we are very well aware of the De Villiers design for Delos and theirs is a very traditional set up while we don;t have the minikeels to get improved upwind performance and when up we will have only 70cm draft to get up shallow rivers and mangroves. We are adding a skeg to protect the prop and rudder which we will share later as the limited space around the prop in that traditional design reduces the performance under power significantly. We will share in later episodes...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 With my design the daggerboards are basically a mumby 48 design. Very simple and easy to build. No sheaves required. For the rudders its basically 2 mini daggerboards controlled by a push pull jefa steering system. Very simple and very reliable design. Going with a center board design is a very good design its just very expensive and complex to build and not a one man job. With mini keels you are limited on what the boat can preform. Also in really bad storm conditions with both boards lifted and the series drogue deployed the boat has no lateral resistance and the large waves can glide under the boat.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 700mm draft not bad mine is a but more at 762mm with boards up and rudders partly up. This way I can still steer even in shallow waters. With the portifino design you can also steer as well with kickback rudder design you cannot.
You are so right about the ability to steer still with the rudders up - a great bonus for both our systems.
Yes that issue you mention of the minikeels always being down does increase the risk of capsize and it seems that many folk are NOT AWARE of that risk! Also being able to keep the windward daggerbaord down while the leeward one is up when sailing across the wind reduces capsize risk because you slide sideways if you ever fly a hull and prevent capsize...
A little birdie told me that there are more than 5000 med- beds hiding in Canberra, awaiting the GCR.
Wow, thanks of the info WK!
Such a good video. Thank you for sharing ❤ be safe😊
Thank you! You too, PE!
I've eaten cactus many times in Mexico, they call it Nopal, it's tasty, a little sour, and rubbery!
:) Thanks Jero - it was a bit of a lifesaver that time!
❤❤❤
Thanks Nikolai - miss you!!!
So good! -- QUESTION -- We were watching Parlay Revival and saw their most recent hull failure (this Sunday's video) where the bow deck peeled back three feet while sailing. It had a factory installed block for the lines (on the bow deck) but the deck was "glued" to the hull, but only glued in a few places. The entire deck just lifted and bent back in 12 knots of wind. How typical is these terrible construction method with fiberglass Catamarans? We are a bit freaked out to keep seeing so many failures and cracks on these Lagoon boats. Even Outremer 55 and 52 have had several failures. AWEN cracked their bow with a little collision and Great Circle Cat had serious rudder and hull damage with water ingress. Maybe Aluminum is the only proper material for a Cat build.?
Hi Coleen, yes very good points. The main difference is that the failure on the Lagoon with Colin is because of the defect in the structural building of the Lagoon that is throughout the boats. This is just another example of the inadequate structural integrity that concerned me when I started looking at production boats about 15 years ago...
The difference with the Awen and Great Circle is that those cats are built appropriately but the basic problem with GRP / fibreglass and even carbon but to a lesser extent is that they all break and crack very easily if you hit rocks, harbour walls, containers, whales or other boats. You just have to look at the Sailing Dauntless Leopard 50 that basically had its bottom ripped out over a reef and those examples you give show that fibreglass breaks VERY easily and opens up wide and fast. Steel boats are usually pulled off reefs and survive but fibreglass ones seldom do... Aluminium certainly has advantages but it is not "the only proper" material to use, you just need to understand the limitations and risks.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ....we noticed that fiberglass can work with traditional sailboats as they can be built heavy and strong. But Cats seem to have this strange weight vs size thing going on where they need it to be super thin and light to be effective, and hence, vulnerable. Seems like fiberglass works best on regular sailboats but aluminum or steel may be the magic material on Catamarans. So weird to see how dangerous fiberglass can be when built thin. -- QUESTION -- Am I seeing this correctly.. on Outremers and Privildge, are they putting a single layer of fiberglass, on each side of foam, and that's it? Their construction videos show what seems to be a single see through fiberglass layer being applied. I thought it would be 20 layers or something. So so thin.
I am concerned that the slot in the rudder that protrudes down when folded facing the sea bottom will get full of mud and sand so prevent the rudder from folding back down.
I suggest rubber flange be developed to plug it
Simple to install before it bottoms
Yes that is a good point Kimble. As it might bottom out and dig in esp if the beach is lumpy, and to protect both the rudder and prop, we are adding a skeg that will take any weight the boat has at that point so the rudder will not touch or dig into the sand / mud. We will share that design shortly but it is quite a clever design to take the weight and also allow lateral movement as we lift off the sand. If we're ever in really soft mud that the boat sinks significantly into, we will use your plug idea to keep the rudder section clean. Thanks very much!
I bought a ice cream maker and make my own Coconut Ice cream , same as in Asia
Fantastic Geoff - so did we in Australia but we don;t have one on our boat.... Enjoy your coconut icecream and share with us when we are in your area!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 maybe if your in Perth or Geraldton by the time I sell my house you can have this one as I'm taking nothing with me , Breville or I leave it in the house ... hopefully sold by xmas
Are you heading out onto the water or just moving homes on land?
You have left the MP4 extension in the title, it looks messy.
Thanks for letting us know - an oversight we will fix now!
Hi Jon and Eli from Cronulla, Sydney. Hmmmm, I was thinking the ice cream might contain Pectin, but clearly I was wrong again! I am still not able to get my iPhone to load up the Tuffminds App. Have Apple fixed the issue indicating it's just my phone, or are they still working on it? I can use the website of course. Hey, you didn't tell us last weekend why Rafaele's chin was blue. I couldn't work it out, my only thought being except of course the typical blue pen leak. So what gives? Clearly, this was filmed at that time as well. Will you be installing props that give an 'overdrive' option?
On a brighter note, is Martina single? 🤣🤣🤣 Give her my phone number and I'll sponsor her a free trip to Australia and show her around. 🤣 Another great episode this week. Ok, that's all from me. God bless and Fair 💨's and Following 🌊's.
Hi Garth, just make sure that you load the "TUFMINDS APP" and not the old version "TUFMINDS" which does not work.... Yes that was all fixed at the same time and we are just sharing different points with the sailing in Turkey to give the variety. You are right too - it was a pen mark on Raffa's beard - he was scratching his chin with his pen and thought the cap was on! :)))
PS Tough luck - Martina is with someone - sorry!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 OH Ah ok, I'll delete the current one on my phone and download a new copy. Ah Ha! I thought so !!!
Oh Damn, My heart is broken. 🥺😩💔Cheers
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Interesting. If I type in TUFFMINDS APP into the Apple Store all I get is: "An Led Board' ???
The right person awaits - keep your list in front of you, your eyes open and li9ve your best life for that person to join into the wonderfulness!!!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank you Jon and Eli!
A common failure in fiberglass boats that go aground is that the prop shaft support strut, just ahead of the prop, has a small area metal base. An impact to the shaft can punch the strut upward and right through the hull. This floods the engine room damaging the engine and electrical system. You may not always ground on a flat bottom where the rudder/skeg will save the prop shaft. One rock sticking up in the wrong spot can still get to the shaft. I see that the strut as shown is ahead of the watertight rudder crash bulkhead. It should be behind it. I expect that on your metal boat that there is a keel stringer on edge along the centerline of the hull. If the strut sits right on the stringer then the strut will probably break before it punches through the hull. You may be less vulnerable to this problem than most, but on fiberglass boats it is a real issue. See the "Wandering Hillbilly" RUclips channel. A fairly minor grounding resulted in mass destruction. I see in an earlier comment that you are working on a skeg design to protect the prop shafts. This is an excellent idea. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. These things are always a compromise between several conflicting factors. No free lunch. For max damage resistance Malcom Tennant and PowerPlay / LongReach Catamaran designs are interesting.
You haven't talked about rig design recently. As I commented a while back, don't get the roller reefing boom. It's still a bad idea. Turkey looks so good. Thanks for showing it to us.
Thanks for all the info Jack! Our skeg that is now designed will take all the weight and keep the rudder above the sand. When we beach, we always stand in the water and check the beaching area for unexpected rocks or coral and to make sure the sand is soft (not sharp; coral that looks like sand) as that will rub off the antifoam or scracth the hull. We will share the design in the next few episodes.
That back compartment is also watertight so there is nothing else in that area to get damaged from leakage if it ever happens...
What is it about the Boom furling system that makes you so adamant to avoid it? We have never used one and obviously have had mixed user reviews.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 The biggest problem with roller boom reefing/furling is that as soon as you reduce sail area you have no mainsail outhaul adjustment. You're stuck with the foot tension you get and can't change it. Slightly changing the boom to mast angle before rolling can effect the shape you end up with, but then it is what it is. Reefing will ,of course, be done in stronger winds, and that is exactly when you will want to depower by flattening the mainsail. If the leech of the main creeps forward as you roll then you're stuck with a baggy/deep draft sail shape and can't do anything to change it. I've seen cases where the crew rolled foam rubber strips into the boom trying to get a flatter shape. I think they used strips cut from those "wet noodle" swimming pool toys. Having 4 outhauls, 1 main and 3 reefs, adds to the line clutter problem, and when going to first reef the slack in the reef 2 and 3 lines flailing around the boom end can tangle. I like to have all 3 reef lines led through adjacent stoppers so as the main is lowered I can pull in all 3 lines as a group and control the amount of slack flailing around. Then winch the last few feet to tension the mainsail.
A possible combination system that I imagine but have not actually tried, if you really want the roller, would be to have reefing clews built into the mainsail leech. Then you can roll the main up and down as the standard roller, but if you need to flatten have a single high power/multi part outhaul with a hook that you hook into one of the clews to control foot tension. It would be necessary to unhook this when rolling in or out and then reset it, so multiple journeys out to the end of the boom would be required, but your coachroof design looks like it allows easy access to the boom. With only one outhaul clutter would be reduced. If you're happy with the mainsail shape, just leave the outhaul disconnected for simplicity, but if you need to flatten you can. How the reinforced clews would roll into the boom should be considered. There may be a limit on how thick and strong they can be and still roll in cleanly.
Not having full battens is another downside if the roller prohibits this. No square top mainsail either. Battcar style mast tracks with full length battens are excellent. With full battens lazy jacks can easily control the lowered mainsail with no spillage. You can lower from the cockpit without having to do anything at the mast or boom as long as your track is clean and lubed. If the track is dirty you still may have to pull down the last few feet of sail, but most of it will drop to the boom. Since a fully battened sail will flutter/flog less the sail has a longer lifespan and is quieter.
When hoisting a roller boom main that uses a "bolt rope" style mast track the rope stitched to the luff of the sail has to feed into the V shaped entry to the mast track. If the halyard is hoisted slower than the than the sail is unrolling the luff can have excess slack at the track entry and wedge the boltrope in the V. This will be more likely as the sail ages and the boltrope and track have wear. The sail can continue hoisting but be outside the track. Some boltrope masts have replaceable "feeders" at the track entry, but on others the V is part of the mast and can't be replaced. Controlling a powered halyard winch to synchronize the hoist with the unrolling can be tricky. This is especially true if the self tailer is used. It can help to hand tail the winch so it can be slipped to avoid excessive pull, or the halyard could be hand pulled/hand cranked so you could feel the tension. If the roller had a clutch so the halyard could pull the sail to unroll it without requiring the roller motor to unroll this could help, but I haven't seen this. Battcar mast track systems don't suffer from any of this. The cars never leave the track so they don't have to be put back on.
To summarize: No outhaul, no full battens, no square top mainsail, no good.
Wish it had an interior helm then ideal.
Yes , Beca there is an interior steering station at the nav station too
Really? Please show that part. I’ve never seen that in the drawings. Ideal then. Might be interested
The interior nav station is also a steering station - it will be seen on some of the early videos with the plan showing the wheel but if you send me your email address (here in comments or to drjohnmcintosh@tpg.com.au), I will send you the layout design with the internal wheel. We have chosen to use electric steering for internal steering and not the full wheel to save space.
Awesome rudder design!
Why would they not skeg the prop back to the rudder?
Yes there will be a skeg and protection but is being refined and we will share shortly! We are trying to minimise water flow disturbance that occurs with an enclosed prop....
Very cool rudder, is there an emergency tiller tied to the step? I have seen boats with what looks like a hex receiver on a surface which allows for a tiller to turn the rudders in an emergency. It may be there and just not shown in the cad file.
-MG
Thanks again MG, we have dual steering systems with electric and hydraulic that are separate and I expect to have the plug in to add a manual tiller if needed.
Do you know how many layers of fiberglass were used on your Leopard Cat? Was it one layer on each side of the foam core? I think that modern cats are now using a single layer on most parts.
Hi Colleen, I don;t know the answer to that although I believe that is the case. The other question is also what is the weight (thickness) of the single layer as that will change the strength and undoubtedly where there are joins to bulkheads and decks, there will be extra layers. Leopards are the strongest built production cats in my opinion as I have seen many examples of Leopards surviving when Lagoons would not....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ...agreed that Leopard seem to be very well built. We watch Sailing Sisu doing a bulkhead and fiberglass tour and it was very impressive. Everything looks square and strong and all joints were tabled and fiberglassed. They even had a steel I beam acting as a support in critical areas.
60mm is under 3" diameter
Sorry my mistake, RGF!
Rudder seems far too complicated.
The obvious answer is a stern hung rudder.
In fact I think every ocean going yacht should have such.
Easy to repair, even at sea.
Can swing up without damage.
Yes, we did consider the transom hung rudder and there are certainly benefits as you list. We had a transom hung rudder on a 27 foot monohull we had and yes, I did have to fix it at seas as the bolts became loose and we were taking on water... The down sides are the interference and risk when reversing into marinas/ ports, when swimming off the back, possibly less strong and the aesthetics.
Thanks for video. Is it possible to order a 52 with a flybridge?
I am sure it can be done, just ask Raffaele.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thanks
:)
Thanks for video. No flybridge like 47th?
We took it off because of the impact on performance and windage....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I was thinking you could have a sky lounge that doesnt effect windage much, if any at all . Basically have a couch section where the backs of the seats ratchet down flat, like the seats on the front lounge area of FP Saba 50, etc... If you want to minimise it further, you could have a a clever mechanism where the flat laying seats sink down into the base and rise up really effortlessly and instantaneously You could get away with half a meter tall of bulk and still have a roof lounge very similar to Leopard 50.Just add some laminate decking or similar, nice pillow covers and it would be just about as nice.
So basically the upper half of the rudder has no hydrodynamical lift as it lacks a proper trailing edge. On the contrary, as it's hollow there will be a lot of flow disturbance. Weird design...
Hi Ozolli, I am not sure if the CAD drawings lose the 3D effect but all the segments of the rudder have the usual aerofoil shape and the top; section just does not rotate upwards so we will maintain our steerage as we are beaching the boat.... It is hollow so it is light but both sides have smooth aerofoil shape - you saw the rudder cut in half to show the interior structure.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567but there must be a slot for the lower half to pivot into?
I am not a fan of this design. Its too complex. I am going with daggerboard rudders for my design. I have now decided to use aluminum for my build as I have found a new way of curving the aluminum without an industrial english wheel. Welding is not the issue it was curving 5 and 6 millimeter aluminum plate.
Thanks for sharing, Carols - we had daggerboard in our 42 foot performance that I built and Eli and I sailed for 20 years and only twice did we lost the sacrificial segments but they did take a bit to repair - hence our choice to go with the kick up centreboards that can then just be rotated down again. But these are all personal choices and I'm sure you will have success with the daggerboards too! We are very interested in how you bend the AL plates without an English wheel - please let us know (unless it is a commercial secret!) Portofino built their own English wheel from scratch as they have the engineering expertise and they chose that pathway... Keen to get more info from you Carlos on the bending and what size of boat and design are you building?
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All commercial english wheels are self built. The thing is huge weighs in over 1 metric ton and takes up lots of space. Problem is that is takes a very skilled and professional people to operate that thing. which I don't have either. This is why wood epoxy was my choice of material. I can easily curve 4mm plywood. Problem with that method is it takes alot of work and there are lots of steps involved.Since I am building in Europe and its self build I am limited to 15 meter max boat length however it does not have to be CE certified which means I don't have to build with an english wheel. With an english all the plates are places horizontal and you must use the full plate 2m by 6m whenever possible. Again with a one man build this is not possible. So I will build the plates vertical instead and use a press brake so all the curved parts will be 48 inches maximum width. This method would not pass a CE inspection but for self build its fine. My press brake design is very simple and easy to build and does not take alot of space.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.
@barefootdoctorssailing8567 All industrial english wheels are self built. Those things are huge weigh in over 1 metric ton and take up alot of space. It also requires very skilled people to operate and is not a one man job. It takes about 4 hours to curve a 2m by 6m plate of aluminum. In Europe all new boats must be CE certified if built by a yard. The shipyard itself must be certified for metal shipbuilding and all welders must have their welding cards and are tested every 6 months in order for them to keep it. Again not possible for 1 man to do. You can however build up to 15m (hull length) which is called a self build however no kit boat designs allowed. You are allowed cut files and you are not allowed to hire or consult any outside professional help besides the boat designer. So basically your on your own. If you can do this then CE certification is not required and you must show to the EU that you built it yourself with no external help. By CE rules you must build the boat with full 2m by 6m plates whenever possible to have the least amount of welds. That is why all plates are welded horizontally and an english wheel is required. Since I don't require CE certification because my hull is 14.98m long I can build all the curved sections 4 feet wide and weld them vertically which an english wheel is not required. All you need is a press brake and I am building one myseld. Very easy to build and does not take up alot of space.