Here's Why The StrongFirst Snatch SUCKS
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
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In this video, I delve into the nuances and distinctions between the StrongFirst kettlebell snatch and the more efficient "Kettlebell Sport" snatch. Understanding the differences between these two movements is essential to optimize your kettlebell training.
1. *Technique Breakdown:* Analyzing the specific mechanics of the StrongFirst kettlebell snatch and contrasting it with the optimal form for the Kettlebell Sport snatch.
2. *Efficiency Comparison:* Highlighting the efficiency disparities between the two snatch variations and how they impact overall performance.
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Understanding the intricacies of the kettlebell snatch is crucial for individuals seeking a balanced perspective on kettlebell training. Whether you're a fitness enthusiast, trainer, or athlete, this video aims to provide valuable insights to enhance your approach to kettlebell workouts.
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Share your thoughts in the comments below. Have you noticed differences in training when using the StrongFirst snatch versus the Kettlebell Sport snatch?
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Here is the thing that you are missing about the HS snatch, and it's something they don't really articulate that well either (I just did the SFG cert a couple of months ago and had to figure this out on my own). With the sport style snatch, with the arm kept relatively straight, the axis of rotation is the shoulder. So the amount of force that you produce with the hip hinge is powering the bell rotating around the shoulder axis, which is like a figure skater spinning with her arms outstretched. With the HS snatch, pulling the elbow in and letting it flex causes the elbow to become the center of rotation, which shortens the lever arm by about half. This is like the figure skating pulling her arms in towards her torso - conservation of angular momentum will cause her to spin faster. And this is what happens with the HS snatch: the same amount of force from the hip hinge gets turned into greater bell speed as it rotates around the elbow. The difficulty with the HS snatch is technical and has to do with timing - if you do it correctly, you time everything so that you "release" the rotation of the bell when it is travelling straight up, like timing a rock being released from a sling, and you keep the elbow flexed by pulling it towards your torso with your lats, instead of bicep curling the bell up into that position. It's all about timing. When you do it correctly, it feels like the hip hinge just rockets the bell straight up, and you just place your hand through the handle. And the effort is felt in the hinge, and in the lats and rear delt as they are pulling the elbow backwards. Which, incidentally, is probably why there is the added WTF aspect of snatches helping with pull ups.
Thanks for the interesting explanation! What different outcome does this type of Snatch produce in the end? My contention remains, that there probably isn't any difference to the "High Volume" Snatch in comparison. What do you (and by extension, your peers) think? Appreciate the thoughtful response!
@@lebe-stark I appreciate you responding! In the spirit of not leaving long rambling RUclips comments, I'll email you my response, as it involves a number of different issues.
I will post a short version of part of the answer - if there is no difference in outcomes, then how could one of them suck? If you think one of them sucks, then by definition you are saying that you think the other one has some kind of better outcomes. If the outcomes for both are the same, then choosing one over the other comes down to individual differences - which style appeals to you, which style is easier for you, who you have access to as a teacher, which teacher resonates with you and your goals, and a bunch of other factors that will influence your ability to learn and practice safely and enthusiastically. Suckiness only comes into play on a case-by-case basis, as it relates to your individual situation.
@@chuangtsu SF is really dogmatic and cultish. That being said, it is all about preference. HS style movements mimic real world applications in my opinion. I also believe in the concept of figuring it out for yourself.I think that HS mimics barbell lifts more than SS. I would keep it as close to my body as a matter of efficiency, like a barbell. Sport style makes great sense for KB sport, but that technique can not be used to hoist 2 bundles of roof shingles onto your shoulder. In the end, if don't argue the technical aspects, this is about sprint training vs. distance training. I wouldn't do a SF cert if I was going to pursue it these days.
@@sethfarrell9605 I don't think either style is particularly good at "mimicking" barbell lifts nor should they be. Kettlebells are their own type of lifts. I use the Girevoy sport style. When I snatch heavier KBs it becomes a bit more "hardstyle" because I need to add extra oomph to get the KB up.
I love your nuance and can appreciate the titles 😂 I’ve even completely changed my Push Press and Jerk due to your recommendations, BUT I’m not giving up my HS Snatch! Keep up the great content!
You're so welcome!
Mr. Gregory. I'm a recent subscriber to your channel. I originally picked up a kettlebell in 2009 but due to work and life put it down years ago. After seeing your channel in the last couple months it's re-sparked my interest. My Dad passed away right before Christmas and to deal with the loss I've been doing swings according to your recommendations. I want to thank you for your brilliant instruction in the correct mechanics of the exercise. After less than a month of using your training insights I am able to swing a 35lb(16KG bell) 100 times continuously. I'm pretty proud of that. By the way I'm 51 and my Dad was 86 when he passed.
My condolences to your loss my friend! 💙 How awesome to be of service in your time of need! Keep pushing; the kettlebell has so many benefits if you stick with it. 🔥
Your demonstration of the snatch without the kettlebell in the hand is really impressive on the level of your motor program. Much respect to you.
Appreciate the feedback!
Learned a lot from you . Thank you for your fine work ,
Glad to hear it!
Excellent detailed description! Thank you! I'm working on improving my snatch, so this video is very useful. I don't want to simply go through the motions to bring the kettlebell to the overhead position. I'm looking for that clean path where I know it feels right. I'm watching sections of the video at .25 speed to really study the technique.
Glad it was helpful!
Hey love your videos! I have a question, my brother is a busy guy and doesn’t have time to go to the gym. He’s a big fella though about 400lb. Is it healthy for someone that big to do kettlebell swings or any type of hinge with that much body weight? I would like to get him into it since it’s flexible. Love to hear your thoughts. Thank you
I really like your content and explanations.
Happy to hear that!
Do a video explaning the kb moviment at the top snacth part. Thanks
Yes HS Snatch goal is with more emphasis on strength and hypertrophy then endurance. Engaging as many muscles as possible and making it as hard /"inefficient" as possible for those goals. And not effiency that is SP and won't translate as much to other sports or movements.
Good points and to each their own. Love your content. Hate the clickbait title.
To be honest my friend; I'm NOT a fan of these titles but I would be a fool to not play into the algorithm every once and a while. Most of our content is workouts and tutorials to help our target audience. Some of these "pipe bombs" however, reach a larger audience… Thanks for the love man!
Would love to know what you think of Wildmans Kettlebell Outside Dead Snatch. Keep the content and conversation coming brother ❤
+1 It would be awesome to see a collab between Gregory and Wildman.
@@LeafwortThumbfloggin or a debate in general!
Dead Snatch variations are awesome and change the dynamics of the exercise.
@@LeafwortThumbflogginwhile Mark is open to it, having met him in person, he’s really very busy and stuff gets lost. I know him and he doesn’t respond to my messages 😂. I did speak to him about it, and he’ll talk with anyone, the trick is coordinating it and for him to see the message under the weight of other stuff he receives. The only reason I was able to interview him was because I was there with him and he couldn’t escape 😂
They are different, sports style is taking into consideration the amount of repetitions, HS takes into account the trajectory and cause of movement; cause of movement in the body is muscle. Like you said, they are different, two perspectives
Always learn so much from LebeStark. Even when he is “debating someone” I learn exactly what they are doing as well as his preferred method. All of this Helps me to understand more of what I am our could be doing.
Glad to be of service!
Its kind of like comparing long distance running to sprinting. They are both the same exercise and body movement but the difference is in the speed of the movement and therefore the force production.
force=mass×acceleration. The greater you project the speed of an object the greater the firce necessary to move the object.
Hardtyle is focused on power, speed and the endurance of fast twitch muscles fibers. In order to do so the movements must be fofused on projecting the bell with speed and therefore power. Soft style is focusd kn endurance and therefore efficiency if movement and is therefore not macimally developing as much soeed and power, though some strength is developed. It would benlike comparing regular push ups to clapping or plyometric push ups. Bith will build strength but clapping push ups require more force production and therefore will build more speed and power.
Soft style will still build strength to sown degree but it wint build the same ammount of power that hardsryle will. Also with hardstyle by shortening the rest periods but allow enough time to recover maximal speed capacity you fan build the endursnce of thr fast twith muscle fibers, so power endurance, or the ability to continuously generate speed and power over a given time period.
So yes both can be used for endurance but I would argue with hardstyle you will build moe fast twitch muscle fibers and power. So similar but different, but still similar if that makes sense.
I see your point, friend. What we now need is actual data to prove different outcomes. My bet is, they're similar. And I would underline that Aleksandr Hvostov's 55KG snatch is the epitome of power production. -> instagram.com/p/CvLdFsBJ0n0/?hl=en
Having done kettlebells for over a decade I will say this: Regarding form; it's more important how an exercise feels than how it looks. If the exercise feels good and doesn't cause injuries or unnecessary soreness than even if it doesn't look too pretty it's good.
For example when I swing with 24kg I use a proper hinge technique. But if I do the swing with with 16kg my hinge is minimal, I can get all the momentum I need with a simple pelvic thrust. I often hinge anyway to get better back activation.
The key thing is the mind to muscle connection, being aware of what feels good for your body. Technique is important, but there's more than one way of skinning a turkey.
Gregory, I like you, I like your content, I appreciate the need to play ball with the algorithm. However What I don't understand is, If I've understood you correctly, you're someone who doesn't appreciate the binary hard style VS Sport only one way approach. This seems to be something you criticise. Yet this is exactly what this video espouses (at least at first?) that the sport style snatch is 'better' yet you seem to contradict that at the end?
I think the simplest way to distinguish between the two snatches is, sport style is a swing that goes overhead, a HS snatch is a clean that ends up overhead. All to do with how the elbow is used to transmit and direct power. I would be curious to know which best enables heavy (32kg+) snatching? I don't think there's any argument that you can do sport style snatches for much longer due to the efficiency.
As I've thought about it more, it also seems the sport style snatch is slower, i.e. it takes longer to execute the movement. This probably isn't relevant to many settings other than the strong first tactical challenge where some of the best guys are putting up 150+ snatches in 5 minutes. Still I think its interesting to think about.
Smart!
The lions roar variation by Pavel Macek is the only way to snatch. Take a beginner and work GS or HS. Then show them the variation above and it cleans up a LOT of issues with them.
The way the SF guys name standard exercises is something else. LOL Can you share any sources for this type of snatch?
@@lebe-stark you open up a search bar, then you type “lions roar snatch.” Then you press enter and view it.
Thanks for the RUclips tutorial, brother!
find the window with out compromising your form
what about overspeed eccentrics? There's a lot of evidence in Pavels books about the speed of the snatch creating more force on the body. speed and explosiveness this is the magic of the snatch! also keeping the body square ie. shoulders knees and hips with a asymmetrical load actually greatly improves rotational power. so it is in these aspects your snatch seems to loose. hardstyle has a different goal from GS!
What kind of evidence can you share to prove both claims? (More speed + more rotational power)
The bar path in a barbell snatch is more curved just like your arm out so maybe that is superior method.
I think this is an official challenge to a 10 minute snatch competition with Derek Toshner.
Thanks for sharing the name of the instructor; just googled him!
it would be pretty fun!!@@lebe-stark
Honest to God, I generally don't like hardstyle at all. But I don't do the sport style snatches even though I mainly use girevoy style. If I were competing in the biathalon, sure. I can snatch more reps sports style. But the kettlebell training is only for me a bridge between track and weightlifting. On my own, I adjusted my snatch technique to produce cross-over effects in my sprinting. I came out with essentially the same technique as StrongFirst without knowing. The kettlebell sport snatch does not for me provide the same effect in impulse during sprints as the StrongFirst snatch. I could sit here and try to explain why, but I could be wrong about why. I only know that, for me, that StrongFirst snatch can be adjusted to training for time and result in better adaptations for most athletics. And it pains me to admit that. It's just true.
To be clear, it's maybe not exactly the same snatch. It's basically the same going to overhead fixation, but more like sports style in drop, regrip, and back swing. It didn't even occur to me that I contributed to this hybrid thing until just now.
I think I stumbled into a similar technique after scratching my head trying to do “hardstyle” and sport technique; I’m hoping this “style” thing dies some day because it really just hurts people trying to do general training.
If one way of snatching or any other movement style is more efficient and you want more strength and development ,you can just add weight Why do a movement a certain way just to make it harder?The more efficient way is probably safer and you can do more reps with a heavier weight which may lead to more stimulation for strength and development.
Good point!
I don’t understand. If the goal is to challenge your body to adapt, why do you want efficiency and less effort? Proper form to prevent injury, for sure. But why less effort?
If we look at the adapted, trained and physically enhanced bodies of weightlifters, we might get a viable answer. These folks are the epitome of efficiency - and look like human terminators.
Bro, you may want to watch your own shorts video of 4 ways to perfect snatch
What's up with that short?
@@lebe-stark you are performing the move exactly how StrongFirst suggests
Yes, it‘s still a variation that‘s done often. Even though my HS technique does not hold up to a high standard. Did you watch this video to get my point?
@@lebe-stark TBH I never heard about strong first before watching this video. I started adding kettlebells to my workout routines a couple months ago. You and Mark wildman are my go to guys to understand the technique.
I enjoy all styles of snatch, especially dead snatches. I usually single snatch sportstyle. But Hardstyle is probably better to know for double snatch
The double snatch is a monster! Used to dislike it and came to love it!
@@lebe-stark Ever tried a barbel snatch ?
@@michaelgrossman7515 Not with heavy weights since I don't know the proper technique.
Snatch is my favorite move
Question first off with regard to the aspect of ergonomics - or the economics of joint care management - both elbow and shoulder are complex rotational joints - my instinct says less elbow, so I would say that Gregory has a valid point, or is there a certified physiotherapist out there who can validate or refute his suction claim? Secondly, the pencil/military crap: It's not the pencil but the arm that gets heavy in a STATIONARY POSITION - that is the foundation of an argument with no correlation whatsoever when talking ballistics. The Karate Kid analogy also makes no sense, who paints a wall or fence, by the way he holds a paintbrush, like Da Vinci working on his Mona Lisa?? Lebt Stark, ya f*ckrs ❤❤❤
Lecturing birds on how to fly
If you hold anybody to a perfect standard, valid discussions (and by extension, progression) is thrown out the window.
I agree that it does not matter so much since both camps agree that all the power comes from the legs so lets not go crazy about the ending.
100% any1 that does heavy kettlebell snatch understands this, or SHOULD!!
Thank you for this great info and being humble. I guess you cant even make a joke before the keyboard warriors jump on you in the comments 😂. Lov your vids Gregory
Appreciate the love, brother! :)
It does seems like over the last few years, with the popularity of RUclips channels like yourself, Strong First is getting left behind. I think its probably due to the fact yourself and other channels are more engaging with us. Doing things like podcasts, and going into more detail of the exercise. As much as I respect Strong First for bringing the kettlebell to the mainstream, it seems like they're stuck in the past. I personally would rather have in person coaching from you or Mark Wildman
Bro 100% gotta learn to adapt
You're raising a very interesting point! Thanks for sharing! 💪
You cant train power with soft style snatch. Its much slower and more endurance style Of training
This might be an argument, I agree! However, has this been proven in a straight comparison? If yes, let me know the resource so I can check it out myself! Finally, we have to acknowledge that "true" explosive power is best achieved with jumping.
@@lebe-stark
Someone should make a study between snatch styles. Winner would be The One that produces (with The same program) more results on different tasks like endurance (cooper test), vertical jump etc.
That would be interesting and the right step to coming closer to the truth!
@@lebe-stark have you ever tried Kenneth Jays Viking Warrior Conditioning Snatch protocoll? If not, id say you have to test it! Its a Good example Of Snatch training were you want to use HS snatch because The High cadence requirement
Read about Dr. Kenneth Jay‘s work from 2014. He seems to have changed his mind a little bit.. 🔥
No proof that one Snatch is superior than the other? I beg to differ. The dynamic flexion / extension of the spine during the "competition" / hybrid snatch activates the Azygos- Hemiazygos venous + vertebral venous plexus systems, the respiratory assistant muscles as well as lubricating (and thereby providing fluids and nutrition to) the discs of the spine, and with the double dip on the knees, the menisci as well. The SF- Method is imitating a barbell mechanic, which definitely has some great benefits for the body, but these are far easier achievable with a barbell. All of these components are measurable and quantifiable. That's why there is a Kettlebell Sport, and a Olympic Weight Lifting. Two different efforts, two different effects. Enjoy!
This is a very interesting take! I didn't think about, how the double dipping lubricates the menisci as well. Thanks for sharing! 💪
@@lebe-stark Its just important to realize that this is the mechanism by which these non vascularized structures receive their nutrition via synovial fluid. It gets pressed in during rhythmic motion under load. (Walking, running, kettlebells 😎) This goes for all of these structures. It hasn't ben studied yet, but I would wager that if you look at barbell athletes as compared to kettlebell athletes, over time, the barbell athletes will demonstrate a far greater loss of height and elasticity in their spinal disks than the Kettlebell athletes. (Kettelbells, clubs, mace family) And thanks for your determined and continual contribution to education on this channel!
The "Egyptian Snatch" was funny. Your explanation of the snatch is in line with what Denis Kanygin shows. His video is linked below. Denis was a Girevoy sport competitor and he demonstrates Girevoy sport technique. Near the top of the lift he bends his elbow slightly. At this point he is pulling the KB towards him and up. The last punch up with the arm allows him to shorten the distance of the pull. It's all about efficiency. I have Kanygin's video set and have learned a lot from it.
ruclips.net/video/twVQr0Fos8Q/видео.html
Thanks for sharing! I've never heard of Denis and immediately reached out to him for a chat!
@@lebe-stark I hope he responds. In addition to his "Kettlebell Systema" DVD set, which I purchased some years ago, he would give seminars now and then. He would also post workouts on his Instagram and he would always recommend thinking "happy thoughts" as you tried to suffer during 5-minute sets. But this was years ago as well and he hasn't done anything kettlebell-related in some time. Last I heard he was working in the US as a computer programmer/engineer. Denis seems friendlier than Ivan Denisov, who I recall told you to quit wasting time with snatches, or something.
What an intro! 😅😅
LOL
Snake fist of Shaolin???😂😂😂
There is no "the way" in any Human activity or endeavor. If there was, it would have been discovered a long time ago and we would all be doing it. Note: We are not all doing it.
Exactly!
Hi, 1st of all comments on utube may create a big mess, so SF do it right to disable.
Yours is an unfair strategy though, cause you pack up a statement in a whole and Complex concept and you disagree with it. I SINCERELY invite you to debate SF tecnique in an official event like Workshop or Certs or Opendays. Everybody will be pleased to compare with your opinion
IMHO snatch comes from a power hip hinge movement involving the posterior muscles chain like you said, but you didn't do with your conservative technique.
Different goals different style, totally agree.
Peace and Enjoy training
Its a great title, hahahahahaha
LOL
LS Kettlebell Police
The Kettlebell Cop! LOL
Why can’t I just troll your troll?
Beep boop
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Seems like all you do is bash other trainers. Are you trying to start your own kettle bell cult?
Yes, we are and we‘re looking for a priest! Interested? 🔥
@@lebe-stark Cute...what's the pay? Seriously how about showing a trainer you like? Maybe show someone you learned something new from. Or is everything you do perfect?
I stand on the shoulders of giants; Pavel included. See here: www.youtube.com/@kettleknights
@@lebe-stark and with that I'll eat my humble pie.
DUDE. You click bait fools into following your page using known algorithms. If you have better technique and methods POST IT. Otherwise you're welcome to sign up for the Tactical Strength Challenge and show everyone how it's done.
We have 1.6K videos on this channel with new kettlebell methods and techniques. I wonder what your arbitrary challenge has to do with a solid critique of a Clean & Jerk that doesn't make sense…
Oof
Your criticism about the snatch is really wrong, keeping the arm straight may work if you are short and are not moving the kettlebell very far, plus if you are snatching in an arc it's more dangerous on the shoulder. Keep up the pointless criticism little man.
Straight arm works best independent of height and arc, friend.
@@lebe-stark try it with a barbell with actual weight, good luck. A snatch is not an overhead swing.
Barbell Snatch is similar to the way I describe. "When the elbow bends, the power ends". A Snatch is a Swing on steroids, yes.
@@lebe-stark catchy words don't mean anything dude, your students will never put up big numbers
It doesn’t matter wether you put up big numbers or not. A straight arm makes the most sense in both cases. And you brought up the argument with “actual weight”.
Bro has too much negative clickbait... always hating on every other Kettlebell user out there.
They don't call me the clickbait merchant for nothing, brother! PS: No hate, only adding to the discussion.
He mearly responds to others negative or positive comments.
Naturally he's gonna put up a title to grab attention.
Did you actually watch the video? He knows it's a click bait title and actually jokes about it like 5 seconds in..... It's no secret it's just for the algorithm
Criticism isn’t hating I swear you guys get the term hating all wrong
Drama + Ads = my favorite handsome Swiss kettlebell "influencer" gets the bag.
For every detractor is a supporter - can't please everyone! 😢😢
@@lebe-stark
my friend a long time ago I appreciated you, you seemed like a person who trained enough and was also strong enough but I realize that your strategy is going badly because you speak badly of everyone. Talking bad about Strongfirst or anyone else means you want to get a lot of views. you try to justify this strategy of yours by saying that for you it is only a source of discussion but I think that your intent is that of the clicbyte. try to change course because at the beginning when you started making videos you seemed like a nice useless guy but now you're becoming arrogant. and on some things you also need to improve your technique because I've seen some exercises that don't go well with maceball.😅
I appreciate your feedback, my friend! 💙