So I used these GRS speakers in some enclosures that I designed with the help of WinISD and this video--2 enclosures of 7 cu ft each. They're big but my gosh, it's incredible. It makes my home theater sound like the movie theater. My wife said tonight, "why do you need it to shake the whole house?" and that confirmed that I had made the right choice. My first sub build and it was a huge success. Thanks for the inspiration!
That is awesome! Thanks for sharing! If you're up to it, we would love to see some of the pictures. Throw some up on the forum. Or even a quick video. I would love to see it. toidsdiyaudio.com/forums/
Great to see, I'm not the only one using isobaric subwoofer. I'm using 4 subs with RCF P400 18" woofer in 150L enclosure tuned to 25Hz. PS keep the distance between the Woofers to a minimum. AWESOME 😲👍👊
Nice work! Looks like the subs will stay relatively cool drawing just 62.5 watts each. If you want a smaller box you can add mass to the cones at the expense of sensitivity. I found out long ago that you can have 2 out of 3 of the following but not all 3 at once. Efficiency, low frequency extension and small enclosure size.
@@Xbs_Rebasscould also put both isobaric pairs into an isobaric configuration, which would cut box size and efficiency in half again, but then design the box with a rise of 3 db right around the target frequency. as long as the response is relatively flat within the passband, tuning will allow for an even smaller box. so give up 3db, but have a box potentially in the 1.5-2cuft range.
Sometime the least expensivce is also the vest for your application, you know the room , what amp, all the thing many people do not know when buying a pre made sub. Good luck with this idea
The first original maker of this type of speaker system was AWA in Australia in the 1960's. They used 2 x 8inch speakers face to face, and the performance was equal to a Certwin Vega 15inch bass speaker.
I shook my front metal door with just one 8” sub at 18Hz. I placed it in a PVC tube about 96” long and 4” diameter. That’s all it took. Simple, light, loud, efficient.
@@Bassotronics Do you happen to know how low of a frequency it can do? I can't seem to find a sub that can hit down to 20 Hz. I'm wanting to build this for my van. A long tube enclosure would be perfect for what I want to do.
I built a box with just 1 of the GRS 12 4he version - down firing. The internal volume came out to 3.85 Cu Ft. Using 4" abs for the port. It sounds great and goes down to around. 18hz. I added a 5/8 inch thick mdf top and did an epoxy pour on it. Turned out beautifully. Looks like a nice coffee table in the corner near the couch (main listening position.
I built two enclosures with 4 Skar Audio IX-10 D2 10" 400 each. powered by Crown XLS 2002. that's eight subs at 4 ohms. This is one outstanding sub. I have tuned in at 24hz. and frankly, I have unlimited power. since I own a brand new Yamaha RX-A6A with independent sub-outputs. I have every 4 subs on one side. spending $2000 -$ 4000 on a retail sub is insane. there is a company called stereo integrity. they make the best subs I ever heard,
Back in 90's when home theater subs only came with 100 watt amplifiers I went down to a local car audio shop and picked a 12 inch orion in a 4th order sub box with external amplifier and Omg bass for my home theater was insane. I now own 4 definitive super cubes best bass ever.... 🔊
Very nice video. For those who may be more cosmetically oriented, as you mentioned and may not like the look, these could easily be compound loaded with the usual cone facing outward design. In this case the second woofer behind will be facing the same direction and it's cone spaced just far enough behind the magnet of the first one. The cardboard coupling chamber can be made using heavy duty concrete pour tubes cut into rings and wood glued between the same facing woofers. Of course, in this case the woofers will be wired together in phase.
Everyone tells me isobaric is an old alignment that's no longer viable or necessary. This shows why it is...space savings! Great build! I may have to build an end table version of one of these for my theater.
Actually it is an old alignment that's no longer viable or necessary, because it's possible to design woofers that perform the same way with just a single conventional driver. But the 10SW-4 are an example of the drivers that used to be common when isobaric alignments were popular, and it works. It shows the main limiting factor of this woofer design is the strength of its motor.
This woofer is available now so the alignment is still viable. Sure you can design a woofer with higher motor strength and cone stiffness that wouldn't require iso but it would be far more expensive. Again, ISO is still 100% viable in the year 2021.
@@jstrahn Perhaps, but consider the cost impact of Isobaric. When you couple two woofers together, that requires you first buy two woofers. And you don't gain any swept volume capability; both woofers are acting on the same piston diameter and can only move it so far. If you can design one woofer (or find one off the shelf) to do the same work, while keeping it slightly less expensive than 2x the cost of the cheap woofer, then you've already come out ahead.
@@Acoustic_Theory So show me the 10" sub for $40 that matches this. That can play as low with as much output in the same amount of space. The last point being the key. It is viable because it brings the space requirement down to a manageable level.
i recently made a new enclosure for my old z2300 sub (only used the sub for a few years) and well, F3 of the original was 56Hz, new F3 is 27, it's incredible what you can do with existing speakers and 30€ for mdf gets you
Fantastic video! I was in the middle of designing an isobaric sub using the new HE variants of the same driver you are using and I stumbled on this video. You took away all my doubts!
Nice! I looked at these a while back and though they seemed to go pretty deep, the box size just was way too big for 1 driver, as you said. Using 4 in an isobaric/compound combination really made it easy to place design back to being able to model on just 1 driver, albeit with much more power handling. Hmm. Maybe I'll revisit them and see what they can do in a bandpass configuration... Also, you could get some nice gloss black paint and detail the bare backsides of those outside drivers. Your own artistic ability is the only limit.
Bandpass doesn't model well, at least with my old calculator. Too high of a Qts. But the quick calcs show that optimum ported box should have a Fb of just over 24 Hz and an F3 of 17 Hz. Interesting.
@@TheTrueVoiceOfReason yeah I was trying six order bandpass and it really didn't model well. It was basically giving you an f3 in the 60hz range and an f3 in the 28 Hertz range I think. It just really wasn't what I was hoping for
I enjoyed this video Toid. I just bought a set of inexpensive subwoofers. the GRS 10SW-4HE. They are currently about $55 each Of course the QES is much lower as it has a much stronger motor and 11mm Xmax vs 8.5 compared to the ones you used in your video. They model very well in WinISD. I suspect they may not of been available at the time you built your project. I was going to build them with a ported enclosure but now decided to just go with a sealed design. I figure with room gain I should be just fine; but now wish I had bought the 12SW-4HE's they work in the same size box but handle about double the power before XMax is an issue. I have done that a lot. Buy drivers only to change my mind for a different pair before I even start to build the enclosure.
It's nice to see some who is willing to think outside the box, pardon the pun cool idea 💡 I have an up firing 6" sub in a tube, it fires into a cross ❌ tube, after seeing what you did, I'm going to fit another sub on top and push pull, but using the cross ❌ tube idea 💡.
I like these odd ideas and low bass! I recently build a sub that hits 14 Hz with only 1 10" driver. OK, it's a little more expensive, but not too much. I used a Seas L26ROY with a 4 m long folded transmission line in a 2 m tall tower.
I have one of the 8" version of those subwoofers. For the $20 its really great. Now that I know I like them I think Ill buy another and one of their high output ones. Then put the 2 normal 8" into my wife's speaker cabinet. It just has cheap Zenith paper cones from the 70's right now.
Next time try modelling the subs using Basta. Basta can actually account for port losses and power handling to predict a more accurate max SPL response.
Of course your large sealed system will be the best, I'm sealed fan myself...the BR is OK and the performance is nice, but do you hear some mechanical noise from the reversed drivers. When I made push pulls like this the noise was always a drawback.
I’m building 2) 3cuft sealed boxes with 2 JBL 2226h in each box mounted face to face. The drivers were sourced on EBay and Reverb. The last isobaric subwoofer I built went down to seismic frequencies.
and clamshell desing also cancel 2nd order distortion making it even cleaner, plus back side of woofer for some reason also has higher Sd, so even more air contact
I have a Bag End setup in my home theater. A pair of Dual 18" with their ELF1 processor. These subs are 4 ohm. I drive these with a Krell FPB600, which easily makes 1800 watts a channel at 4 ohms. This setup will go to 8Hz. But its a little more than $100.
That's cool. I like to use their GRS12SW for cheap sub builds. Just a few dollars more for the 12" version and needs a smaller cabinet. But It's not anything like my Dayton DCS450. I have it in a sealed box with the Dayton DSP-LF and it is so clean and sensitive for movies.
All parts, out the door, with the Dayton SPA 250, extra speaker wire etc. is actually closer to $400. That being said, I am nearly done with this build and couldn't be more excited! P..S. this sub/box is much bigger than you think
I have Morel Octwin 5.2 home speakers with the 10" Isobaric loaded subwoofers and I can say these drop cleanly below 20Hz with ease! I also love the fact that an Isobaric configuration also cuts the distortion level by half at the same frequencies.
Thanks for this video, it highly reminds me of a idea i had.... : -) I build my own subwoofer years ago which is a isobaric single reflex type with 2x 10" speakers and a build in amp, it serves as a side table and weighs in at 55 Kg (121 Pounds) The subwoofer manages to put out just a notch under 30Hz, it still makes for some unexpected moments when a low frequency sound effect in a movie kicks in.
A couple years ago I bought 20 of 12 inch versions for around 14 bucks each, I haven't done it yet but I want to build a infinite baffle with all of them running off of a big crown amplifier. I have everything to build it but I just don't have the time
@@Ohm_Breaker Sorry to say I never got around to even starting the project but I do have 20 of the GRS 12SW-4 12" subwoofers and the amp is a Crown XLI 3500. All the stuff is now about 5 years old but still new in the box. The past few years I’ve only been home long enough to sleep and shower. I still do plan on building the described infinite baffle, it should only take a weekend. There’s a bedroom with a 7’ wide closet on the other side of the living room. I’m going to use the wall separating the living room from the closet/bedroom to mount all 20 drivers in between the studs in 5 groups of 4 subs per bay. That’s the extremely simple layman’s rundown of what I plan on doing. The project you plan on building sounds awesome, I would like to hear more about it.
I had 4 of these in a car in a 5cu.ft. box on 500 watts rms and they sounded nice but they were pretty quiet, one 600 watt audiopipe 12 in a 2.5 cu.ft. box was louder and the audiopipe was $65 vs the grs at $80 and the 12 hit the lows way better but the grs are great if you aren't going for volume
Would have likes to see some bassy music pumping thru those. Also maybe a shot of the windows shaking tooo. Great build otherwise perfect for a basshead 🙌🙌🙌🙌👍👍👍👍
Only thing is, might want to be careful with these though, the power rating is for thermal performance only, and xmax is quite easy to reach, so go easy with them!
I have two of the high excursion GRS 12's being driving by that Icepower amp project you talked me into. The bass was so unreal in my media room that I had to relocate the thing to my garage because even my teenage kids were compaining that pictures were rattling on the walls upstairs. So i sit here with them belching some Weeknd (and related) for the appreciative neighbors. They were 60 bucks a piece and I tossed them in 1.25 ft3 sealed boxes. They are comically strong. Almost embarrassing. Almost.
Haha, that is awesome. I haven't had any experience with those ones yet, but I've heard good things. Sometimes it's just amazing what you can DIY for the price. Sounds like you found the perfect sweet spot for that.
There are other advantages also in using multiple smaller drivers. Like the fact that you are distributing the power to multiple motors which multiplies the control over the smaller cones that can start and stop faster yielding better transient response, spreading the heat among multiple motors for better cooling and power capability, and increasing the sensitivity of the sub 6dB for each doubling of drivers. For the best transient response you want to stay away from ported designs and go even better with open baffle designs. This will pay off more with music than HT sound effects though. Music doesn't really need to go below about 41Hz for a 4 string bass guitar, or 31Hz for a 5 string bass.
Please hear this , there is some useful 16 Hz ... if not, I listen to in on Deezer HiFi., or try to find the CD. ruclips.net/video/vxMMs4uE44I/видео.html I agree with Your technical considerations , You may add that he inductance problems are lowered in push-pull mode...
@@potatojake197 Yea maybe... Gonna simulate that tommorow morning in hornresp. I probably have to go for isobaric loading no matter wich driver's as i don't have much room.
Given two subwoofers, would switching the phase and driver direction within and between the cabinets usefully reduce mechanically induced distortion? This might be beneficial at extreme excursions though whether the ear is sensitive to it or not is another issue. Great channel! Thanks for another great video!
Cool video! For the price I have always wanted to play around with those GRS subs but I had already invested in 4x 15", so I'm set. Will you post frequency response measurements so we can see how they actually perform?
Did you see the Boss CXX10 CHAOS EXXTREME? It's very slightly different in Xmax (1.5mm less) and SPL (1dB less) and is $4 more, but it ups the power from 120/240W (GRS) to 400/800W. Need a slightly bigger box (6.375^3') and the ports need an extra 1.5".
@@Toid I build a box for a guy's SUV. In a 10 cu. Ft. Box tuned to 33Hz the Boss Phantom 12's (four of them) sounded... Kind of pesky/poppy/shitty. They are not constructed better than these woofers. They are poly cone, rubber surround, not very large ferrite magnet, and i think 2 inch voice coil. Over $80 each for them. I was not impressed. For fun, i hooked them up to a 50W x2 amp (all four lol) and they sounded decent on that, actually. They did not particularly like high wattage I think. The Kickers he replaced them with did better. I'm not a Boss fan. Lying to consumers.
I built one similar for a high profile “media circus” trial. It kept the “lasers” used to listen off the glass at bay. I ran at 40Hz, 300 watts rms in a huge law firm’s meeting room that a glass wall. This was before multi-pane insulated glass. The cab was very heavy and flush against the aluminum framing that supported the base of all the windows. The harmonics off the glass caused the audio-tap to stop completely. Using lasers against glass, if your not familiar with it, works “sort of like” an ear drum - it measures the movement and interprets the data (the simplest way I can put it in one sentence.) 🔊 On the fun side:. I always thought it would be fun to take a 20Hz box like the one you built. Find out where they are filming one of those “ghost hunting” shows and set one up in the attic against a structural beam 🤣 👻 😂
@@modernbassheads5051 I think he is talking about a laser microphone. Maybe you can buy one? It's a spy gadget. That firm had to be mad paranoid to need such extreme measures lol.
@@gahbah274 very interesting I know the kgb used similar devices in the 80s and90s who knows what they have now, look into headaches from cuban American embassy workers
This vid gets over 1M views. i'm calling it. When I'm right, just promise me you'll send me the whole kit just so that I can avoid spending $80 and (yes even that amount will) annoy my cheap spouse. Come on! It'll be my blessing that did it!!
I watched this and immediately thought it was too good to be true. But is it? Where would the high end subwoofer outperform this setup? How would the sound compare to a high end subwoofer? If you wanted to push it to the max what amplifier be? Are you using a DSP to get this flat curve? Awesome video!
@@Toid Do you think a DSP could pull some ULF without damaging the subs? I would love a budget sub like this that could hit the emergency button of the brain😉
I have. If I remember correctly the 12-in version didn't model nearly as well. I think it went lower, but it needed a huge box. But I haven't modeled it currently so I'm just going off of memory.
I have 2 of the 12's, converted an old stereo cabinet from the 60's to a dedicated sub cabinet. These guys hit down to 17 in my cabinet( both downfiring), the whole damn house shakes on 400 watts!
How about turning this into a 6th order BP? That would hide the unsightly baskets without adding a ton more volume to the box. I would love to see that project! 😄👍
If I tuned it 6th order I wouldn't have been able to meet my 20hz goal. With a 6th order you will start rolling off at 60 and 30hz respectively. So it really would need to be crossed over lower (around 60 hz) and then wouldn't give me the anechoic F3 I was looking for. I also envision that if you build this you are probably crossing over your mains from 120-80hz, so that wouldn't really benefit those building this. However, you could definitely do it.
Band pass subwoofers tend to be have a very "one-notey" type of sound. Not very musical and somewhat fatiguing. The best isobaric setup is front to back ie; like the Linn Isobarik.
@@milesdufourny4813 yes, one-notey because they ring like a bell because of the poor transient response. Sealed or open baffle is the way to go for music, and there is no reason to go below 30Hz for music.
Nice video ;) for budget. If you want low budget bass u can try a ib setup with a cheap 15 or 18 inch sub .. that will give you a really nice sound , I have a workshop and a small window between the workshop and garage . Dudes I put a 12 inch subwoofer in the window ... Jesus !!! When I open the door of my garage and workshop the whole backyard shakes;) and also you Don need more than 100/200 w . For the sub I paid 30 € and the amp about 20 € . Try this and you will be amazed.
sub placement is everything. I had a Bose 321, just setting it in the floor was...well...useless. It did nothing. I have always been Into car audio, and learned early on about enclosure placement, and the structure in front of the enclosure, and the difference placement makes. The "sub" (don't even know what dinky speaker is in Boses enclosure) would impress everyone. Even my buddy with a wall of 15s in his car. For it's size, it was impressive when placed in a small closet, firing into a corner of the closet (no clothing or anything In the area). Great video. I'll stop with my pointless comment. ಠ‿↼
Those GSR speakers are a good bargain I have the 6 1/2 to play around with and to replace some JBL bookshelf speakers. They are actually a decent replacement speaker and sound good, another good budget subwoofer if you wanna spend a little more and concerned about space are the Skar audio evl65. I have a pair of these in a box I built tuned to 28hz and they are very impressive, I also have a pair of the rockville 6.5 subs to not as good as the Skar but also impressive.
I'm actually sitting about 5 feet from a ported 18" cabinet that's almost exactly 6 cubic feet after accounting for driver and structural volumes :D tuned to approximately 27 Hz but it's for my bass guitar so that's plenty low, I had to downtune my 5-string 2 full steps to hit that low G at 24.50 Hz, and considering going lower since it's still quite loud and tonal. Might even go all the way to E0 (20.60Hz) on my B0 string since there's still enough SPL to hurt your unprotected ears
So I got all geared up to order the 4 subs and it's out of stock everywhere. However, the GRS 12SW-4 12" are in stock and only $10 more a piece. They seem to have a lower frequency, but I don't want to get in over my head in designing the box. Should I be able to use the same dimensions as you use? Or should I research the proper calculation for 4 of those in isobaric load?
Hi , my question bellow but at first: congrats and respect !!!! And a lot of Thank You for your interesting com. So: I prefere using sealed boxes for the low freq with the idea of "pressure" because for mid and Hi, I'm trying to demonstrate that there are huge advantages in HiFi to use the "plan baffle" - the speaker works better and mostely: it is a bipolar radiation and doesn't radiate sideways, on the walls etc. Using already a 4 subs per cabinet (6 and a quater inch), I'm now used to 20 Hz and want to reach 14 :) -that signal is so rare that You would think it is "triggered". Do You have any Idea for what should be the sealed box volume for 4 Isobaric GRS10SW4 - and in a sealed box, there is no Hi-Pass natural filter as the vented does cut off the bottom preventing tne sp from breaking. Thanks very much, pics on demand !!
Well i don't have a 250w plate amp laying around, i also don't have the materials for the box. So for me this sub is not gonna cost me 100$. The plate amp, plus the drivers, plus the ports, add 50 for materials and you have a 350$ subwoofer, which is still pretty good for what it can do. DIY always wins. I've never seen the drivers being placed like this. Will definetly read about it. Seems really interesting.
Great points. I was really talking about the price of the subwoofers themselves. At $80 in subwoofer cost, I am not sure there is much that can compete with it in terms of low bass for cost. You get the added benefit of not have to use an expensive amplifier as well. A 100w would be enough for a lot of people.
I have a great next build for ya. A power supply / preamp for semiconductor (strain gauge) phonograph cartridges. Especially something that is perfect for Panasonic epc-4XX series of cartridges such as epc-451. From my understanding it be done with a simple circuit that can be relatively inexpensive.
Thanks Scott. The 15" is pretty awesome as it stays pretty quiet unless you really crank it up. This one is a little noisier, but it handles ultra low frequency scenes like the beginning of Edge of Tommorow surprisingly well. In fact I can run the sub gain all the way up, play the beginning of this movie at reference level in these subwoofers handle it just fine. That is a really hard feat to do. That's a scene that has killed many subwoofers. So if you're looking for ultra low frequencies, I would choose this one. If you're going more for just the bass feeling and not really hearing it, I do the 15-in, and keep the subwoofer amp gain about halfway.
These subs are 2x the price now, glad you were able to get a good deal!
I can't hear any of the 20hz through my phone speaker therefore this sub must not work.
Haha! Best comment ever!
@Yama Fanboy The Forbidden Knowledge
Did you know phone speakers are weak?
🤣🤣
You need 4 iPhones to hear it
So I used these GRS speakers in some enclosures that I designed with the help of WinISD and this video--2 enclosures of 7 cu ft each. They're big but my gosh, it's incredible. It makes my home theater sound like the movie theater. My wife said tonight, "why do you need it to shake the whole house?" and that confirmed that I had made the right choice. My first sub build and it was a huge success. Thanks for the inspiration!
That is awesome! Thanks for sharing! If you're up to it, we would love to see some of the pictures. Throw some up on the forum. Or even a quick video. I would love to see it. toidsdiyaudio.com/forums/
@@Toid Will do!
Great to see, I'm not the only one using isobaric subwoofer. I'm using 4 subs with RCF P400 18" woofer in 150L enclosure tuned to 25Hz.
PS keep the distance between the Woofers to a minimum. AWESOME 😲👍👊
Nice work! Looks like the subs will stay relatively cool drawing just 62.5 watts each. If you want a smaller box you can add mass to the cones at the expense of sensitivity.
I found out long ago that you can have 2 out of 3 of the following but not all 3 at once. Efficiency, low frequency extension and small enclosure size.
i'd give up a little bit of the lows and tune it to 28-34 hz so I could get 1.5-2.5 cubes instead
@@Xbs_Rebasscould also put both isobaric pairs into an isobaric configuration, which would cut box size and efficiency in half again, but then design the box with a rise of 3 db right around the target frequency. as long as the response is relatively flat within the passband, tuning will allow for an even smaller box. so give up 3db, but have a box potentially in the 1.5-2cuft range.
Sometime the least expensivce is also the vest for your application, you know the room , what amp, all the thing many people do not know when buying a pre made sub. Good luck with this idea
The first original maker of this type of speaker system was AWA in Australia in the 1960's. They used 2 x 8inch speakers face to face, and the performance was equal to a Certwin Vega 15inch bass speaker.
I shook my front metal door with just one 8” sub at 18Hz.
I placed it in a PVC tube about 96” long and 4” diameter. That’s all it took. Simple, light, loud, efficient.
How does an 8 inch speaker fit a 4 inch tube? I'd like to build that.
@@kleinstruction874
You need an 8" diameter PVC or Cardboard tube, then adapt it to fit the 4" tube.
I'm very intrigued. Which specific 8" driver are we talking? This sounds like an interesting experiment
@@sule_imani
Could be any high powered 8”.
The one I used was Massive Audio Hippo
@@Bassotronics Do you happen to know how low of a frequency it can do? I can't seem to find a sub that can hit down to 20 Hz. I'm wanting to build this for my van. A long tube enclosure would be perfect for what I want to do.
I built a box with just 1 of the GRS 12 4he version - down firing. The internal volume came out to 3.85 Cu Ft. Using 4" abs for the port. It sounds great and goes down to around. 18hz. I added a 5/8 inch thick mdf top and did an epoxy pour on it. Turned out beautifully. Looks like a nice coffee table in the corner near the couch (main listening position.
I built two enclosures with 4 Skar Audio IX-10 D2 10" 400 each. powered by Crown XLS 2002. that's eight subs at 4 ohms. This is one outstanding sub. I have tuned in at 24hz. and frankly, I have unlimited power. since I own a brand new Yamaha RX-A6A with independent sub-outputs. I have every 4 subs on one side. spending $2000 -$ 4000 on a retail sub is insane.
there is a company called stereo integrity. they make the best subs I ever heard,
Back in 90's when home theater subs only came with 100 watt amplifiers I went down to a local car audio shop and picked a 12 inch orion in a 4th order sub box with external amplifier and Omg bass for my home theater was insane. I now own 4 definitive super cubes best bass ever.... 🔊
Very nice video. For those who may be more cosmetically oriented, as you mentioned and may not like the look, these could easily be compound loaded with the usual cone facing outward design. In this case the second woofer behind will be facing the same direction and it's cone spaced just far enough behind the magnet of the first one. The cardboard coupling chamber can be made using heavy duty concrete pour tubes cut into rings and wood glued between the same facing woofers. Of course, in this case the woofers will be wired together in phase.
Everyone tells me isobaric is an old alignment that's no longer viable or necessary. This shows why it is...space savings! Great build! I may have to build an end table version of one of these for my theater.
Agreed! All alignments are viable, to someone.
Actually it is an old alignment that's no longer viable or necessary, because it's possible to design woofers that perform the same way with just a single conventional driver. But the 10SW-4 are an example of the drivers that used to be common when isobaric alignments were popular, and it works. It shows the main limiting factor of this woofer design is the strength of its motor.
This woofer is available now so the alignment is still viable. Sure you can design a woofer with higher motor strength and cone stiffness that wouldn't require iso but it would be far more expensive. Again, ISO is still 100% viable in the year 2021.
@@jstrahn Perhaps, but consider the cost impact of Isobaric. When you couple two woofers together, that requires you first buy two woofers. And you don't gain any swept volume capability; both woofers are acting on the same piston diameter and can only move it so far. If you can design one woofer (or find one off the shelf) to do the same work, while keeping it slightly less expensive than 2x the cost of the cheap woofer, then you've already come out ahead.
@@Acoustic_Theory So show me the 10" sub for $40 that matches this. That can play as low with as much output in the same amount of space. The last point being the key. It is viable because it brings the space requirement down to a manageable level.
i recently made a new enclosure for my old z2300 sub (only used the sub for a few years) and well, F3 of the original was 56Hz, new F3 is 27, it's incredible what you can do with existing speakers and 30€ for mdf gets you
I have a working Z2300. One of the best ever. It sits collecting dust now. Congrats on your refresh.
Fantastic video! I was in the middle of designing an isobaric sub using the new HE variants of the same driver you are using and I stumbled on this video. You took away all my doubts!
Oh yeah We were just talking about a design using the he on the Forum. toidsdiyaudio.com/community/postid/7148/
Nice!
I looked at these a while back and though they seemed to go pretty deep, the box size just was way too big for 1 driver, as you said. Using 4 in an isobaric/compound combination really made it easy to place design back to being able to model on just 1 driver, albeit with much more power handling.
Hmm.
Maybe I'll revisit them and see what they can do in a bandpass configuration...
Also, you could get some nice gloss black paint and detail the bare backsides of those outside drivers. Your own artistic ability is the only limit.
Bandpass doesn't model well, at least with my old calculator. Too high of a Qts.
But the quick calcs show that optimum ported box should have a Fb of just over 24 Hz and an F3 of 17 Hz. Interesting.
@@TheTrueVoiceOfReason yeah I was trying six order bandpass and it really didn't model well. It was basically giving you an f3 in the 60hz range and an f3 in the 28 Hertz range I think. It just really wasn't what I was hoping for
I enjoyed this video Toid. I just bought a set of inexpensive subwoofers. the GRS 10SW-4HE. They are currently about $55 each Of course the QES is much lower as it has a much stronger motor and 11mm Xmax vs 8.5 compared to the ones you used in your video. They model very well in WinISD. I suspect they may not of been available at the time you built your project. I was going to build them with a ported enclosure but now decided to just go with a sealed design. I figure with room gain I should be just fine; but now wish I had bought the 12SW-4HE's they work in the same size box but handle about double the power before XMax is an issue. I have done that a lot. Buy drivers only to change my mind for a different pair before I even start to build the enclosure.
It's nice to see some who is willing to think outside the box, pardon the pun cool idea 💡 I have an up firing 6" sub in a tube, it fires into a cross ❌ tube, after seeing what you did, I'm going to fit another sub on top and push pull, but using the cross ❌ tube idea 💡.
I like these odd ideas and low bass!
I recently build a sub that hits 14 Hz with only 1 10" driver. OK, it's a little more expensive, but not too much. I used a Seas L26ROY with a 4 m long folded transmission line in a 2 m tall tower.
Just a little bit more expensive 😂 Sounds like an awesome build!
I have one of the 8" version of those subwoofers. For the $20 its really great. Now that I know I like them I think Ill buy another and one of their high output ones. Then put the 2 normal 8" into my wife's speaker cabinet. It just has cheap Zenith paper cones from the 70's right now.
this should get 2 million views
Next time try modelling the subs using Basta. Basta can actually account for port losses and power handling to predict a more accurate max SPL response.
Of course your large sealed system will be the best, I'm sealed fan myself...the BR is OK and the performance is nice, but do you hear some mechanical noise from the reversed drivers. When I made push pulls like this the noise was always a drawback.
I’m building 2) 3cuft sealed boxes with 2 JBL 2226h in each box mounted face to face. The drivers were sourced on EBay and Reverb.
The last isobaric subwoofer I built went down to seismic frequencies.
Build Plans can be found here: toidsdiyaudio.com/forums/discussion/iso-100-build-20hz-for-under-100/
How to wire speaker
@@geoffreyantonio5766 click the link. All the info is there
and clamshell desing also cancel 2nd order distortion making it even cleaner, plus back side of woofer for some reason also has higher Sd, so even more air contact
Cool I'm goin to mod your box plans to fit in the trunk of my car that should be interesting
5:18 no it really looks like the face of
"HOLY SHIT 20HZ BASS!!!" OoO
Some of the GRS subs are staggering good for the price point.
I have a Bag End setup in my home theater. A pair of Dual 18" with their ELF1 processor. These subs are 4 ohm. I drive these with a Krell FPB600, which easily makes 1800 watts a channel at 4 ohms. This setup will go to 8Hz. But its a little more than $100.
That's cool. I like to use their GRS12SW for cheap sub builds. Just a few dollars more for the 12" version and needs a smaller cabinet. But It's not anything like my Dayton DCS450. I have it in a sealed box with the Dayton DSP-LF and it is so clean and sensitive for movies.
All parts, out the door, with the Dayton SPA 250, extra speaker wire etc. is actually closer to $400. That being said, I am nearly done with this build and couldn't be more excited! P..S. this sub/box is much bigger than you think
Sweet! Can't wait to see the final project!
That Bass is what I give my neighbors, sundown audio x18 and 4000 watts driving by slow and loud LOL 🤤 gotta love it
I have Morel Octwin 5.2 home speakers with the 10" Isobaric loaded subwoofers and I can say these drop cleanly below 20Hz with ease!
I also love the fact that an Isobaric configuration also cuts the distortion level by half at the same frequencies.
Ok it's been a year... They still kicking ass😁
They are.
Killer build! Loved the intro
Thanks man! I appreciate that!
Thanks for this video, it highly reminds me of a idea i had.... : -)
I build my own subwoofer years ago which is a isobaric single reflex type with 2x 10" speakers and a build in amp, it serves as a side table and weighs in at 55 Kg (121 Pounds)
The subwoofer manages to put out just a notch under 30Hz, it still makes for some unexpected moments when a low frequency sound effect in a movie kicks in.
In '94 i ran 4 15" orion xtr duals in a clam shell design n powered them with a earthquake p4300 4 channel amp. I cdnt keep my car together
Low low bass is great. I'd love more of the builds on some DIY channels to be about producing the best sound quality not loudest and lowest.
A couple years ago I bought 20 of 12 inch versions for around 14 bucks each, I haven't done it yet but I want to build a infinite baffle with all of them running off of a big crown amplifier. I have everything to build it but I just don't have the time
Did you get around to going this?
If so how did it go?
I'm planning a biuld with 16x grs 15pf-8 with each one in a H frame.
@@Ohm_Breaker Sorry to say I never got around to even starting the project but I do have 20 of the GRS 12SW-4 12" subwoofers and the amp is a Crown XLI 3500. All the stuff is now about 5 years old but still new in the box. The past few years I’ve only been home long enough to sleep and shower. I still do plan on building the described infinite baffle, it should only take a weekend. There’s a bedroom with a 7’ wide closet on the other side of the living room. I’m going to use the wall separating the living room from the closet/bedroom to mount all 20 drivers in between the studs in 5 groups of 4 subs per bay. That’s the extremely simple layman’s rundown of what I plan on doing. The project you plan on building sounds awesome, I would like to hear more about it.
Damn Toid! You were INSPIRED! What did you smoke? Gimme more.
HAHA!
I had 4 of these in a car in a 5cu.ft. box on 500 watts rms and they sounded nice but they were pretty quiet, one 600 watt audiopipe 12 in a 2.5 cu.ft. box was louder and the audiopipe was $65 vs the grs at $80 and the 12 hit the lows way better but the grs are great if you aren't going for volume
Awesome Video! Isobaric loading can be very interesting for some drivers!
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to do it with some crazy expensive drivers, but it works for this.
I love isobaric subwoofers
Would have likes to see some bassy music pumping thru those. Also maybe a shot of the windows shaking tooo. Great build otherwise perfect for a basshead 🙌🙌🙌🙌👍👍👍👍
I too share the love for the low lows
Another awesome build and video Nick! I might need to go out on a spend soon! 😁
Only thing is, might want to be careful with these though, the power rating is for thermal performance only, and xmax is quite easy to reach, so go easy with them!
Dude I got 8 6.5 on the yung 300 big box tuned to 50 it's insane
So glad I got to see the build, awesome!
Liked instantly... I have been waiting for a subwoofer video! I am still looking for a reply about the RV Theater room.
Some upgrades to the Dinas would be amazing!
Living in a small apartment, large builds tend to become a bit out of reach 😕
I N .... yeah, the other problem is trying to use it without the neighbor banging on the ceiling with a broom stick. (turn that !@#$ down!)
I have two of the high excursion GRS 12's being driving by that Icepower amp project you talked me into. The bass was so unreal in my media room that I had to relocate the thing to my garage because even my teenage kids were compaining that pictures were rattling on the walls upstairs. So i sit here with them belching some Weeknd (and related) for the appreciative neighbors. They were 60 bucks a piece and I tossed them in 1.25 ft3 sealed boxes. They are comically strong. Almost embarrassing. Almost.
Haha, that is awesome. I haven't had any experience with those ones yet, but I've heard good things. Sometimes it's just amazing what you can DIY for the price. Sounds like you found the perfect sweet spot for that.
Amar Bose had this design in the Bose 701 . It's brilliant.
I liked the downfiring table, nice video!
There are other advantages also in using multiple smaller drivers. Like the fact that you are distributing the power to multiple motors which multiplies the control over the smaller cones that can start and stop faster yielding better transient response, spreading the heat among multiple motors for better cooling and power capability, and increasing the sensitivity of the sub 6dB for each doubling of drivers. For the best transient response you want to stay away from ported designs and go even better with open baffle designs. This will pay off more with music than HT sound effects though. Music doesn't really need to go below about 41Hz for a 4 string bass guitar, or 31Hz for a 5 string bass.
Please hear this , there is some useful 16 Hz ... if not, I listen to in on Deezer HiFi., or try to find the CD. ruclips.net/video/vxMMs4uE44I/видео.html
I agree with Your technical considerations , You may add that he inductance problems are lowered in push-pull mode...
You don’t know what you’re talking about, also some of us like rap and EDM which sometimes goes down to 23hz
@@modernbassheads5051 Some pipe organs go below 17 Hz.
@@modernbassheads5051 source please
I'm a believer. Isobaric loading, should be used more often.
Definitely should not be ignored.
Haven't heard isobaric since my younger days when I studied car stereo relentlessly. Always wanted to do a tube style clear plexiglass isobaric setup.
Antônio from Brazil. Nice job changing 0,9 QTS cheap drive to a 0,45 Qts nice subwoofer.
Have (4) of these 10 in grs in my car for the last 3 years. They sound great. Run the grs 6.5 (2) per front door also sound great for the price
Power to the mighty woofer.
This gives me crazy ideas to make subsonic noise😁 A tapped Horn with subs in an isobaric setup tuned to 11hz I wonder what driver's to use tho...🤔
Use some Skar SDR-18's
@@potatojake197 Yea maybe... Gonna simulate that tommorow morning in hornresp. I probably have to go for isobaric loading no matter wich driver's as i don't have much room.
@@kaedeschulz5422 If you don't have a lot of room maybe an 18" isn't a good option lol
I like your build, exposed subwoofers looks awesome!
Nice budget! May I suggest painting "eyes" on the rear of the woofers.
Given two subwoofers, would switching the phase and driver direction within and between the cabinets usefully reduce mechanically induced distortion? This might be beneficial at extreme excursions though whether the ear is sensitive to it or not is another issue. Great channel! Thanks for another great video!
Isobaric already significantly reduces mech distortion as long as you don’t exceed mechanical xmax
Cool video! For the price I have always wanted to play around with those GRS subs but I had already invested in 4x 15", so I'm set. Will you post frequency response measurements so we can see how they actually perform?
Would you be able to make a box that fits in the floor joists. I’ve always wanted to try it.
Did you see the Boss CXX10 CHAOS EXXTREME? It's very slightly different in Xmax (1.5mm less) and SPL (1dB less) and is $4 more, but it ups the power from 120/240W (GRS) to 400/800W. Need a slightly bigger box (6.375^3') and the ports need an extra 1.5".
Boss is one of those brands that I don't trust their specs. So if have to get one in and see how close the specs are to their published specs.
@@Toid I build a box for a guy's SUV. In a 10 cu. Ft. Box tuned to 33Hz the Boss Phantom 12's (four of them) sounded... Kind of pesky/poppy/shitty. They are not constructed better than these woofers. They are poly cone, rubber surround, not very large ferrite magnet, and i think 2 inch voice coil. Over $80 each for them. I was not impressed. For fun, i hooked them up to a 50W x2 amp (all four lol) and they sounded decent on that, actually. They did not particularly like high wattage I think. The Kickers he replaced them with did better.
I'm not a Boss fan. Lying to consumers.
I built one similar for a high profile “media circus” trial. It kept the “lasers” used to listen off the glass at bay. I ran at 40Hz, 300 watts rms in a huge law firm’s meeting room that a glass wall. This was before multi-pane insulated glass. The cab was very heavy and flush against the aluminum framing that supported the base of all the windows. The harmonics off the glass caused the audio-tap to stop completely. Using lasers against glass, if your not familiar with it, works “sort of like” an ear drum - it measures the movement and interprets the data (the simplest way I can put it in one sentence.)
🔊 On the fun side:. I always thought it would be fun to take a 20Hz box like the one you built. Find out where they are filming one of those “ghost hunting” shows and set one up in the attic against a structural beam 🤣 👻 😂
Haha! That would be hilarious! 😁🤣
What kind of lasers are they and can a regular person buy something like that
@@modernbassheads5051 I think he is talking about a laser microphone. Maybe you can buy one? It's a spy gadget. That firm had to be mad paranoid to need such extreme measures lol.
@@gahbah274 very interesting I know the kgb used similar devices in the 80s and90s who knows what they have now, look into headaches from cuban American embassy workers
I got 4 sundown 18's I'm thinking about ripping out and replacing them with these.
I wonder what the 12 inch version would sound like :)
Do mandatory Bass I Love You
I put 16 GRS-10SW-4s in 30 cubic foot wall tuned to 22hz on a Audiopipe APNK4001.
Dang!
Great, another project to add to my list....LOL.
This is actually going to be in a subwoofer shootout video coming out
This vid gets over 1M views. i'm calling it. When I'm right, just promise me you'll send me the whole kit just so that I can avoid spending $80 and (yes even that amount will) annoy my cheap spouse. Come on! It'll be my blessing that did it!!
Help me get it there, and you never know.
New Spouse Shopping: Initiating
I watched this and immediately thought it was too good to be true. But is it? Where would the high end subwoofer outperform this setup? How would the sound compare to a high end subwoofer? If you wanted to push it to the max what amplifier be? Are you using a DSP to get this flat curve? Awesome video!
No dsp. However if you want to dsp the low end for your room, check out my dsp-lf video. It's definitely a value buster subwoofer.
@@Toid Do you think a DSP could pull some ULF without damaging the subs? I would love a budget sub like this that could hit the emergency button of the brain😉
Great video
typical subwoofer is 4 ohms looks at my 2x 1ohm subwoofers sad noise. Nice build
I only build isobaric clamshell sealed subs. Very forgiving.
Have you modeled the 12" version of these subs?
I have. If I remember correctly the 12-in version didn't model nearly as well. I think it went lower, but it needed a huge box. But I haven't modeled it currently so I'm just going off of memory.
I have 2 of the 12's, converted an old stereo cabinet from the 60's to a dedicated sub cabinet. These guys hit down to 17 in my cabinet( both downfiring), the whole damn house shakes on 400 watts!
How about turning this into a 6th order BP? That would hide the unsightly baskets without adding a ton more volume to the box. I would love to see that project! 😄👍
Much worse transient response with a BP. Better to stay with 4th order ported or better yet with 2nd order sealed.
If I tuned it 6th order I wouldn't have been able to meet my 20hz goal. With a 6th order you will start rolling off at 60 and 30hz respectively. So it really would need to be crossed over lower (around 60 hz) and then wouldn't give me the anechoic F3 I was looking for. I also envision that if you build this you are probably crossing over your mains from 120-80hz, so that wouldn't really benefit those building this. However, you could definitely do it.
Band pass subwoofers tend to be have a very "one-notey" type of sound. Not very musical and somewhat fatiguing. The best isobaric setup is front to back ie; like the Linn Isobarik.
@@milesdufourny4813 yes, one-notey because they ring like a bell because of the poor transient response. Sealed or open baffle is the way to go for music, and there is no reason to go below 30Hz for music.
@@StewartMarkley I agree.
Nice video ;) for budget. If you want low budget bass u can try a ib setup with a cheap 15 or 18 inch sub .. that will give you a really nice sound , I have a workshop and a small window between the workshop and garage . Dudes I put a 12 inch subwoofer in the window ... Jesus !!! When I open the door of my garage and workshop the whole backyard shakes;) and also you Don need more than 100/200 w . For the sub I paid 30 € and the amp about 20 € . Try this and you will be amazed.
I use cerwin vega cva121 im in loveeee in this 21 inch booofer if i find another one in good price will buy
sub placement is everything. I had a Bose 321, just setting it in the floor was...well...useless. It did nothing. I have always been Into car audio, and learned early on about enclosure placement, and the structure in front of the enclosure, and the difference placement makes. The "sub" (don't even know what dinky speaker is in Boses enclosure) would impress everyone. Even my buddy with a wall of 15s in his car. For it's size, it was impressive when placed in a small closet, firing into a corner of the closet (no clothing or anything In the area). Great video. I'll stop with my pointless comment. ಠ‿↼
Cool..! Now let's see an (isobaric) T-Line enclosure built...😁
Those GSR speakers are a good bargain I have the 6 1/2 to play around with and to replace some JBL bookshelf speakers. They are actually a decent replacement speaker and sound good, another good budget subwoofer if you wanna spend a little more and concerned about space are the Skar audio evl65. I have a pair of these in a box I built tuned to 28hz and they are very impressive, I also have a pair of the rockville 6.5 subs to not as good as the Skar but also impressive.
I'm actually sitting about 5 feet from a ported 18" cabinet that's almost exactly 6 cubic feet after accounting for driver and structural volumes :D tuned to approximately 27 Hz but it's for my bass guitar so that's plenty low, I had to downtune my 5-string 2 full steps to hit that low G at 24.50 Hz, and considering going lower since it's still quite loud and tonal. Might even go all the way to E0 (20.60Hz) on my B0 string since there's still enough SPL to hurt your unprotected ears
So I got all geared up to order the 4 subs and it's out of stock everywhere. However, the GRS 12SW-4 12" are in stock and only $10 more a piece. They seem to have a lower frequency, but I don't want to get in over my head in designing the box. Should I be able to use the same dimensions as you use? Or should I research the proper calculation for 4 of those in isobaric load?
I haven't designed a box around the 12s.
@@Toid can you point me in the right direction so I can design one myself? Are there size requirements formulas I need to be aware of?
@@Padenormous why don't you start asking on the forum and we can help out. www.toidsdiyaudio.com/community
Hi , my question bellow but at first: congrats and respect !!!! And a lot of Thank You for your interesting com. So: I prefere using sealed boxes for the low freq with the idea of "pressure" because for mid and Hi, I'm trying to demonstrate that there are huge advantages in HiFi to use the "plan baffle" - the speaker works better and mostely: it is a bipolar radiation and doesn't radiate sideways, on the walls etc. Using already a 4 subs per cabinet (6 and a quater inch), I'm now used to 20 Hz and want to reach 14 :) -that signal is so rare that You would think it is "triggered". Do You have any Idea for what should be the sealed box volume for 4 Isobaric GRS10SW4 - and in a sealed box, there is no Hi-Pass natural filter as the vented does cut off the bottom preventing tne sp from breaking. Thanks very much, pics on demand !!
This is great! Thank you!
Well i don't have a 250w plate amp laying around, i also don't have the materials for the box. So for me this sub is not gonna cost me 100$.
The plate amp, plus the drivers, plus the ports, add 50 for materials and you have a 350$ subwoofer, which is still pretty good for what it can do. DIY always wins.
I've never seen the drivers being placed like this. Will definetly read about it. Seems really interesting.
Great points. I was really talking about the price of the subwoofers themselves. At $80 in subwoofer cost, I am not sure there is much that can compete with it in terms of low bass for cost. You get the added benefit of not have to use an expensive amplifier as well. A 100w would be enough for a lot of people.
These subs are on sale right now for $30 each..MIght stock up!!
Might shake my house but does it sound good?
Is it musical or a single note bass bomb?
Great video. Learned alot.
Is there any sort of double cone filler that you can suspend between the two woofers for improved isobaric coupling by reducing the airspace?
Another nice proj Toid.
Whats the cheapest subwoofer to get clean 10hz. That would be a nice video. Thanks
I have a great next build for ya. A power supply / preamp for semiconductor (strain gauge) phonograph cartridges. Especially something that is perfect for Panasonic epc-4XX series of cartridges such as epc-451. From my understanding it be done with a simple circuit that can be relatively inexpensive.
Is there any chuffing at high volume? I’m loving your videos BTW!
Sweet video!
There speakers that have good flex and super loud
How is the sound quality compared to the PN395-8 build?
I'm enjoying all these new projects you have going on!
Thanks Scott. The 15" is pretty awesome as it stays pretty quiet unless you really crank it up. This one is a little noisier, but it handles ultra low frequency scenes like the beginning of Edge of Tommorow surprisingly well. In fact I can run the sub gain all the way up, play the beginning of this movie at reference level in these subwoofers handle it just fine. That is a really hard feat to do. That's a scene that has killed many subwoofers. So if you're looking for ultra low frequencies, I would choose this one. If you're going more for just the bass feeling and not really hearing it, I do the 15-in, and keep the subwoofer amp gain about halfway.