Neumann KH 80 Studio Monitor Review. Excellent Performance. Small Size.
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
2:31 - Subjective
7:24 - Objective
17:26 - Summary
____________________
All of my tests are conducted using KLIPPEL Hardware and Software. KLIPPEL is an innovative leader in providing unique test equipment for electro-acoustical transducers and audio systems. Founded in 1997 by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, the novel techniques developed for control and measurement systems of loudspeakers and other transducers are the result of over 30 years of fundamental research. This provides more accurate physical models of loudspeakers, micro-speakers and headphones valid for both small and large amplitudes. The focus is on revealing the root causes of signal distortion and defects and giving practical indications for improvements in design and manufacturing of audio products. For information on KLIPPEL products, please visit their site below:
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I'm German and don't care how you proncounce it ... If you wanna try: Noi-Munn (the last part like nun but with an "m"). The content AND the speakers are excellent as expected. 🙂
Perfect pronunciation of Neumann 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Yes!!!! FINALLY, I pronounced something right! 😂😂
@@ErinsAudioCorner Aaaaaaactually not quite, sorry ^^
Your pronounciation of "Neu" is spot on, but the "mann" is actually like the "mun" in "munching" or "mundane".
@@wagayuuri9397not true
In German language, "neu" is like "noy", so correct, but the "mann" is not "mun" but more like "mahn", with an open "ah". But Erin was close enough.
"Hello...Neumann" Seinfeld :D
Doing lord's work Erin! Reviews in all price ranges for everyone to choose.
Man, I’m trying. Thank you!
Finally! I was waiting for a long time for you to review the Neumann line as well. Next the big boys: KH 120 II and KH 150, IMO as an owner of KH 80 DSP, those are the "sweet spot". Thanks
Your pronunciation of Neumann is absolutely correct!!
Thanks Erin, just the review I was looking for. You pretty much sunned up my exact experience with the KH80. I loved it's neutrality and compact size, I just wanted more bass extension, and didn't want to be limited to their Neumann 750 sub, which is quite expensive for what you get. I would absolutely love a 750 review at some point, as well as what others have said, a kh120mk2 review. Thank you for your time!
Glad it was helpful!
Great speaker reviews, Erin! Thank you!
Perfect review, I think you're getting better with every video. Thanks for your time and effort
Hi Erin, your new compression test kicked off a small debate on our audio discord and I thought I'd put my thoughts and suggestions into a comment.
I think both methods you use are not ideal for this particular test, so let's start with the sweep.
The issue with the sweep is the decay time of the limiter in active speakers mostly, but a little bit the voice coil cooling down on passives (the issue of "prior state"). You can see this effect on your linearity test of the Point Zero. The limiter of the speaker triggers because it's overloaded in the bass region when the sweep starts, then it seems to have a 'long' hold time but a very fast release, which causes the graph to go from "compression off the charts" to "back to zero compression" in an instant.
This means the stimulus is unfit for the test and the data may or may not be flawed, depending on the DUT. A solution would be to use stepped sines with periods of silence between the tones. This way you will more accurately capture how a speaker performs at a certain frequency.
About the multitone test, this is not representative of music content, unless you use a sloped multitone, similar to pink noise (3dB/octave), which resembles the spectral distribution of typical music more accurately. Instead of the multitone test, I'd suggest looking into CTA-2010B "6 Maximum Usable Sound Pressure Level - Continuous" (also included in CTA 2034), which is quite similar to your test, but would then actually be something standardized and well documented/defined. This test uses bandwidth limited pink noise.
Maybe Klippel has a standard routine for this specific test already, which would make this quite convenient.
In general, I think compression tests (and distortion tests for that matter) should all be performed with equal energy per octave in mind (pink noise), since the equal level sweeps just don't represent what we use the device for: music listening.
Anyways, thanks for the awesome data you always post!
Btw, you might wanna look into the settings for your voice mic, in particular the gate. It cuts off the beginnings of the words and phrases harshly, which sounds quite unpleasant to me. If you can up the attack time and ease the threshold a bit, that would be much appreciated! And if you're using a compressor with an attack time longer than 1ms, then you might wanna lower that to 'as fast as it'll go' too ;-) Cheers!
I appreciate your input and will consider it.
As for the gate, I increased the threshold for this video because my daughter and her friends were in the next room over and were having way too much fun making crafts. I’ll make sure to readjust before my next video. 👍
@@ErinsAudioCorner Cool, looking forward to what's to come! Btw I think it's mostly about the attack time of the gate probably. When I do live sound, I keep the attack time of the vocal mic gates at around 10ms, which makes it nicely transparent.
@@ErinsAudioCornerIf you have an nvidia gpu, consider their free Broadcast software. It’s a pretty decent real time noise reducer. FWIW, I didn’t hear any problem with your gate.
Now I'm curious how the KH120II and KH150 do ngl. From other measurements I've seen, they have a much better PIR, so farfield usage could be much more viable for those. Plus, they're larger, so they go fairly louder too. I would like to see how they fair in compression and multitone haha, probably really good :)
Excellent points throughout.
Thank you for this awesome review, looking forward to your KH 120 II review ;-)
Great explanations as always. Well done sir. Thanks Tom eh
Very welcome.
Interesting observations and Neumann as usual being great at speaker manufacturing
Nice review. Looking forward to see the KH 150's tested ! And with MA1 room correction if possible.
Another great review Erin, keep 'em coming! Given their purpose I'd bet that treble bump in far field would come down with a few rockwool panels on the walls. They might sound too dark in that scenario if the off axis were more well behaved.
Great review of these Neumann KH-80s. The high performance and compact size of these near-fields have made these popular for mobile studio use. I have friends that use these with Neumann's sub and they sound fantastic in a small room. In a larger room the KH-80s might be excellent as the overhead speakers in an Atmos setup.
Erin you might be interested in reviewing the HiVi Swans OS-10. They are DSP versions of the Overnight Sensations Kit. Paul Carmody was flattered that they made a commercial version of his speaker and he talks about them on his blog and provides a gated measurement.
Good luck with your move. Agreed that it makes no sense to use a 4 inch 2-way in a cabinet the size of the KH 80 for a far (or even mid) field application, but I appreciate you sharing your perspective and experience. Your explanations are always easy to understand. Neumann specifies a recommended listening distance of 2.5 to 6 ft, which is consistent with your evaluations.
I would welcome more studio monitor evaluations on your channel. Although professional studio monitors are purpose-built tools for tracking, mixing, and mastering, many models have crossover appeal in the consumer audio space. This is especially true for larger monitors that are designed for midfield studio use, like the Neumann KH 420 and Adam Acoustics S3V. Even robust nearfield monitors, like the Neumann KH 150 are likely suitable for 2-channel listening in smaller rooms.
Although some folks find studio monitors to be dry or analytical compared to consumer loudspeakers, if one is planning to apply DSP for digital room correction anyway, I hypothesize that studio monitors are a better place to start. They generally have lower distortion and more even off-axis behavior than consumer models. As such, they seem to take very well to EQ.
for mixing use this is a solid choice for the money.
Impressive performance for the desktop
Great review per usual
Glad you enjoyed it.
THANKS LOGAN...and Erin, of course.
I use these speakers in the studio paired with the Neumann sub. They translate very well and I have been impressed with them over the past couple of years.
Love Neumann, focal, and genelec monitors.
Excellent review - so glad you were so scientific about it. I am trying to compare the Genelec 8010A with the KLH80. Not doing hip hop music so I may try without a sub for now.
Erin, call Dave at Ascend and get the rest of his line!!! Do the Sierra 2 EX V2’s PLEASE. Dave is a helluva guy and his speakers are really well made
I wanna hear his subjective impressions on the Sierra LX. I love the idea of a bookshelf that has solid output down to 40 Hz and their Nearfield scanner measurements show it to be damn near perfect in room response. For $1500 they seem like they would be serious giant killers.
@@MechAdvbuy them and send to erin.
buy a pair then send to erin. but there’s klipple measurements on these from ascend..
@@chinmeysway Ascend likes Aaron, they will send him whatever he asks for. They speak the same language
You pronounced them perfectly. Not that i really care about stuff like this but since you mention it.
I love the-my Kh80. Imho one of the best if not the best "ultracompact serious monitor“ and pretty fair priced for what they offer.
Now i got curious about a review by you on the Ks Digital C5 Reference
Channel gets better every review. Peace!
Beautiful on axis!
Thanks Erin, great review as usual. Would be really cool to get a pair of Iloud MTMs for review, as they seems to fit just in between the Kh80 and Kali LP UNF, either for price and characteristics
They were supposed to send me some. I'll need to follow up.
@@ErinsAudioCorneryeah! I got them (the Iloud MTMs) after a couple of Kali LP6s, due to lack of space. They sound really nice (when used in the 50hz mode or more) and you can do some room correction with the proprietary microphone but I hear some port noise and they lack headroom, so I was thinking to switch for a pair of the little kalis+sub or go all in for the Neumanns
Broadband absorption will help. Reading the Early Reflections Breakout, it looks like the Front Wall Bounce is most strongly contributing to the elevated treble whereas the ceiling bounce is giving that 2kHz dip. Given that it’s common for control rooms to have some acoustic treatment, judicious placement of it should help manage the far field response.
Nice. Their NDH 30 headphones are pretty solid.
Surprised the vertical directivity is so good. Makes me curious about the new Kii sevens. Studio and hi-fi will soon have enough similarities to have a civil conversation. Thanks for what you do!
Awesome that you included a new check: Compression of transfer function! Thank you so much for getting better and better! I am from Germany: the pronunciation is Noi Mun.
I realized last week, that Canton speakers are aviable in the US. So it would be sooooo cool, if you would be able to get in Contact with the Canton Distributor and ask for testing a speaker of the Reference Series. Canton is No. One in Germany. The reference 9 is USD 3.600,- a pair. A beautiful two way design. Better than the Sierra LX from Ascend Acoustics which is half the price?
Thanks!
Interesting to see that those small monitors perform quite decent at 96 db, those MD and compression test are really useful
You had it right actually!
I bought KH 80s with the cal mic, and integrated them with my own subs with a miniDSP unit as well. Honestly one of the best purchases I've made in my life. Everything just sounds right. Got the exact house curve I wanted. My only complaint is Neumann's calibration software is quite clunky and limited for custom multi channel setups (I do 5.1 mastering for work). They've got a ways to go before they hit Genelec levels of software features, but they're going in the right direction. Rock solid product.
They recently released surround support for MA-1 that includes multisub but it’s an additional fee.
@@Hexspa yeah, I’ve used it. It’s okayish. Quite limited config options. Not quite to the drag & drop level of Genelec’s SAM. Granted it’s half the price.
You're happy with miniDSP? I see you're using that. Have you tried multisub optimizer? I just have one sub, the Yamaha HS system, and use EQAPO and that seems to work pretty well for one listening position.@@ctcwired
Hello...NEWMAN!
The comments regarding nearfield listening and the ratio of direct to reflected sound were extreme relevant. To some extent I think this is an important factor when choosing speakers for mid-far field listening. In my room for example there is about 1.5m for each speaker to the side walls and I am about 3.5m from the speakers. Therefore I’m not really hearing a huge amount of side wall, despite the fact my Revel M106 have been optimised to work well with side-wall contribution.
@mattholland 315
This is pretty much what the Klippel's "Estimated In-Room Response" result attempts to predict, and does quite well.
Note that it is in relation to a speaker's response in a typical room, and not nearfield, which is generally what a On-Axis measurement provides.
Another thing that matters in terms of speaker distance to the side-walls and other boundaries in your room is the Time Arrival in milliseconds (ms) of each of those reflections in relation to the direct sound at your listening position. The ratio and levels can be either beneficial or detrimental in regards to spectral balance as well as clarity/intelligibility and imaging/focus/soundstage cues.
Do an Online search for "Aural Exchange - Understanding Sound Reflections" as a quick reference, but as Erin has previously recommended, the latest edition of Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" book is a more in-depth and definitive reference.
Alright, where did you get THAT shirt. I have bought hundreds, maybe thousands, of pounds of their drivers.
Thank you as always for your detailed review. I do like the slightly larger coverage angles.
My friend is the US rep for their car audio division. 🙃
@@ErinsAudioCorner Any chance of Casey hooking you up with the $54k Morel ''FAT LADY'' home tower speakers to test???
After owning a dozen of studio monitors over the years, I ended up with the KH80 and I absolutely loved it, then I gave it away to a friend and I couldn't stand not having one so I got the KH120. Both great speakers & I believe they are endgame for home desktop setups.
Original KH120?
Would be awesome if you could review the Adam a7v. Also a nice studio monitor, very popular and has potential in hifi stereo use.
@SparK17299
Contact Adam and ask for them to loan a pair of the a7v to Erin. The more people who do this, the more they will be convinced to do so.
@@bbfoto7248will do so
I tried the 120s in my basement av system at around 7 feet and they sounded great but didn't have the bass I expected from the ASR report. Don't expect miracles!
@MRPC5
Were you using a separate subwoofer? I've owned the OG Neumann KH120AG since 2013 for use as secondary nearfield monitors in my home studio, i.e. for their intended use.
In regards to what they are...very small speakers with JUST 5.25" midwoofers, the bass that they produce is impressive, especially in that it is clean, articulate bass response and not one-note wonders.
I really don't understand what people are expecting in regards to the BASS response and level when using relatively tiny speakers with just 5.25" midwoofer drivers, especially in midfield to farfield scenarios and for A/V or HT use! There is just NO WAY around Physics..."there is no replacement for displacement" (as in "Cone Area").
IMO, the bass extension and level is also extremely impressive from the diminutive size of the KH80 and considering the use of tiny 4" midwoofers which have exponentially less cone area (Sd) compared to the 5.25" in the KH 120 series!
@@bbfoto7248 Reviews, measurements, and user accounts I saw made me think these somehow bent the laws of of physics. I know it's silly but people talk about these like the second coming and I'm just warning people to not get carried away like I did.
I'm 8% German ...you pronounced it correctly.
Hello Erin,
Thanks for the great work. Do you know why this speaker has better vertical responses/plot than other 2 way you measured like March Audio Sointuva?
Hey Erin, What happened to the Tekton troubadour review?
Hello, Newman.
Hello, Jerry!
Thank you so much for the great review, but where are the THD measurements?
Dammit! I accidentally deleted it out! Crap!!!! I had very briefly shown them but apparently I deleted that little section on accident. Sorry.
You can find the data on my site, though. I'm currently in the process of uploading it so give it a few minutes. With it you can see that at the higher output (96dB) is not good. But, luckily it's only really higher in the midrange and is 2nd order deiminated so less likely to be an issue. And given these are likely going to be listened in the nearfield (as opposed to my other speaker reviews that are listened much further) 96dB at 1 meter is quite loud.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Thank you for your quick and sincere reply. I will check your website.
15:45 I think most who have used satellites with subs know how much better the mid-low bass(but everything really) plays without full tone going through the bass membrane and box of the same speaker
In the end, the KALI LP-UNF is probably the best option for nearfield speakers for the price, right?
For 300$ and that kind of performance, I think it's probably the best.
did you trey these with the MA 1 mic / room correction? might be an interesting short followup ...
Hi, what do you think about Tannoy speakers, Gold series?
sold the kh 80 after years nearly for the same price i got them and boughtt yamaha hs7 instead ...doesn't feel like a downgrade, no problem mixing on the hs7 ....edit: sorry i had the kh 120 , not the kh 80....but same story
Can anyone explain why there is any variation at certain frequencies at all? Why can't the material simply be completely flat for Tweeter? Flat until it breaks up? Why do we always have these strange little dips and bumps that are narrow and frequency? Are they there all of the time or just in certain combinations of frequencies?
I SCREAMED "Hoooooly shit!" when I saw those on-axis numbers. That is FLAT flat.
Where do they get the maximum SPL of 108.8dB from? Interesting....
Thanks for the review. Why is it when you review speakers, you don’t usually mention the soundstage characteristics? Just curious, as that’s what stereo systems are all about.
Otherwise why not just use one Bluetooth speaker with great tonality. 🔈
Gerald, you haven’t watched my previous two videos because I talked a lot about soundstage. Not so much with this speaker because nearfield doesn’t have a lot of soundstage. Look up apparent source width. You’ll thank me later.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Interesting perspective, as near field listening has a larger soundstage in my experience as the room interactions don’t distort the direct sound, so the source material is better represented. But hey, we all view things differently.
Gerald, maybe you missed Erin's recent reviews of the KEF Blade 2 Meta and PS Audio FR10 tower speakers?
I think that Erin sometimes doesn't bother going into deep detail on some things every time unless those particular aspects are "bad" in a noticeable or specific way.
I'm pretty sure he kind of "lumped in" the imaging/soundstage metrics when he said that...unless there are some major/obvious issues (such as a wild imbalance in FR between the Left & Right speakers), most NEARFIELD speakers will perform similarly because you are mitigating nearly all of the variables created by the effects of the ROOM... [paraphrased].
From personal experience with Neumann's studio monitor lineup, you can generally EXPECT excellent imaging & soundstage performance across the board, at least when used for their intended purpose. It's sort of "a given" with Neumann. ;)
I've been using the OG Neumann KH120AG studio monitors since 2013 as the secondary/small monitors in my home studio setup and I've demo'd the others. They all perform really well in regards to imaging and soundstage metrics (including depth and height), and my KH120 present incredibly detailed, pinpoint, and focused images with excellent "air" or space between each element (when that is captured or mixed into the recording).
One example is Tears For Fears "Woman In Chains". It's a dense mix and everything has its own place and space in the soundstage whereas lesser speakers tend to smear and muddy/mix everything together with less separation and definition. And there is also a clear separation in both the Depth AND Height between Roland's lead vocal and Oleta Adam's background vocal that literally floats in space well above and behind Roland. A LOT of systems do not reveal that!
The midbass & bass IMAGING is also excellent in tracks such as the intro in Malia & Boris Blank's "Celestial Echo" track from the "Convergence" album.
The KH80 are just a "mini-me" design of the KH120, so I would expect nothing less...except a bit less bass extension and SPL. It's actually incredible what they achieve with a FOUR INCH midwoofer!
That being said, they may not be to your liking because they ARE Analytical and do not "color" the sound when properly set up. They are designed to be an analytical tool, not for everyday HiFi listening enjoyment. But when speakers are Neutral, low distortion, and dynamic, you hear everything as it is in the recording (for better or worse).
If you were wanting to demo or try one of the Neumann line in particular, I would opt for the KH 150, as IMO it is the most well rounded, and "better" than its larger KH310 sibling (again, IMO).
Cheers
You know they're great when Oluv bought a pair...
How does it fair against the KEF LSX II LT at same price?
test data looks good
but sounds pretty low-fi in midrange.Couldn't understand why so many studios use it
Let it be known Neumann doesnt make a bad speaker
there are probably less than 10 dome tweeters on the planet that can go this loud
As far as I remember, this is the flattest response curve, you ever published on your channel.
Had a demo of these a while ago. Didn't like them much - boxy mids (around 400Hz), something weird is going on in the highs, as if the tweeter is compressing them. My room is very good, I've been mixing professionally for the past 17 years. The mix I made on KH 80 DSP wasn't so good, which doesn't usually happen at this point. Sent them back of course.
It be nice if you got a tekton space in there any one of them under 1400
I have the Troubadour on the Klippel at this very moment. Listening is done already.
@@ErinsAudioCorner
Troubadour, nice!
There's physical characteristics that I'm really curious how they'll manifest into Klippel data.
- verticals due to the disparate drive units
- horizontals due to three elements;
1.) lack of mid-woofer flush mounting
2.) asymmetry in baffle width
3.) side-by-side drivers
I know, ate up ... but I'm curious nonetheless.
Many if the Tekton offerings are so compelling ... really dig their unique approaches.
@@FOH3663
Same curiosity here due to their unique "design elements".
@@bbfoto7248
Yes!
@@ErinsAudioCorner did you take the tekton video down cause people were being dicks on that one? tekton must have a cult like following they have great reputation among the audio community.you didn't say anything bad about them you liked them just wasn't your kind of speaker cause it had a little bump in the midrange. like whats the big deal?
Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn 🤓
Is it just me or does that response look freakishly linear compared to others you've shown?
It’s a DSP enabled speaker. 👍
I find it very interesting that Neumann, a company that specialises in making microphones for their subjective sound character is good at making speakers that are objectly focused.
Yeah somewhat interesting because Recording/Tracking/Capturing a particular instrument or vocal with a pleasing tonality or timbre and Reproducing it are two different things.
But Neumann is very much a science & technology based company, and their microphone capsules are speaker transducers "in reverse". It is more so the Tube & Electronics combined with the capsules that give each mic its unique sonic character.
But Neumann took over Klein+Hummel's studio monitor product line instead of letting it die off. Hence the "KH" prefix in Neumann's studio monitor product line as you most likely know.
The Klein+Hummel O 300 and their other models were loved by many but suffered from power compression/were dynamically limited, and the amplifiers failed often and Sennheiser would not repair them or even release the schematics to independent repair facilities.
Neumann improved them in quite a bit in nearly every aspect with the KH 310, but with seemingly very mixed "love/hate" reviews.
near-field algorithm...
Beep boop 🤖
@@ErinsAudioCorner 🌩🌩
Expensive little suckers. 4" woofers at $1000 per pair I would look at other highly rated monitors at way less than that..
True, but IF you want/need something SMALL with the performance to back it up, I don't think you'll find many that will compete, especially with their built-in DSP and microphone-based room calibration/correction.
way to much focus on freq response
what?
TF are you talking about... What should we focus on... The spices that make something sound lush or any other audiophile nonsense talk?
It’s pronounced Neumann, not Neumann
Obviously, LOL!
Exceptional!
👍 And next time try the “adults” KH120 II and KH150. 🤓
I’d be happy to if someone wants to send me a pair.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I’d be happy to save money for them 😅. Neumanns are really good. At this moment I’m listening cheapest actives from Dynaudio - BM5 MKIII and I hope that someday you’ll test them too. But I will not send them to you from Europe 🤷♂️🤓.
The KH420 measures great without DSP so I don't really know what they can improve on the second generation which will have DSP.
@jasonkillsformomy
The KH420 is considerably larger and intended for more Mid-Field use (1.5m-3m or 5’-9’, such as in ATMOS systems), and therefore the Acoustics of the ROOM will influence the response to a larger degree. The DSP and Calibration will be used to offset or correct for those Room effects.
@@bbfoto7248 I know all this. You misunderstood my post.
Best desktop nearfield speakers are always gonna be coax speakers.
@jasonkillsformomy
In order to achieve "good" low-end response without compromising the HF via IMD, it will need to be a 3-way design which might end up being too large for some "desktops" unless you create a subwoofer/satellite system as in the Kali IN-UNF.
@@bbfoto7248 That's common sense. No need to write it.
@@jasonkillsformomy You made a blanket statement as a matter of fact with your inclusion of "always" being best.
I'm just countering that there are No "BEST" desktop nearfield speakers or otherwise. It DEPENDS on one's specific use case scenario.
Cheers
@@bbfoto7248 Coax is the best because sitting close to a multiple driver speaker where the tweeter and mid isn't a point source isn't a good idea. How you handle the lf is irrelevant.