The lore entries quoted to establish that we changed Shin’s mind are from the “Letters from a Renegade” lore book, which is important. These letters are from Shin but are filled with lies, much like Truth to Power. Shin is maintaining the facade of his legend, the story of a zealot hunting down those who would dare wield the Dark. It isn’t until “For Every Rose, a Thorn”, released a full season later, that Shin Malphur begins to peel back the facade and reveals to us that he is Dredgen Vale and has been perfectly fine with Guardians able to wield dark powers the entire time. This is an important thing to note. Shin Malphur already accepts that Guardians can wield Darkness, he is trying to cull Guardians that let the Darkness wield them. Simply thought I’d point that out.
@@MyelinGames Yeah, have to say the whole video I was thinking to myself, "but Shin straight-up admits to us that was almost entirely a facade... and he PERSONALLY used the darkness as Dredgen Vale"
I don't think shin kill does who wild the darkness for bad on the lore it say im gonna be "better then him" that mean he's going to do what dredged yor did but different he doesn't do it for revenge he already got he's revenge and loss to dredged yor why because dredged yor wanted to be stop thats why he put the flames of vengeance on shin and shin knows thats he loss thats why he try to do something better then dredged yor by proving that Guardians who wield the darkness can change
It was good! Maybe we could get more later on “hot topics” in the lore. let’s hope the comments aren’t terrible ,but let’s be real the anonymity youtube gives users brings out the worst of them. Hope you’re doing good.
I really like this approach you are taking with the lore! It is such a unique approach, but it's necessary considering how dense and ambiguous the lore can be. On top of that, you are risking your sanity by engaging so heavily with the comment section but it's admirable and I think it'll pay off
God this is so good. Thank you for pointing out that Shin isn't just a boring "anti-hero." He is SO much better than that. Shayura too. I love these two characters. They are so much more complicated than the simple good and bad that people try to pinhold them to.
@@slorbonmyknorb777 Shin was literally employing Entrapment techniques, Those "weak-guardians" wouldn't even have steered towards darkness if shin didn't make way for them, imagine a cop getting you addicted to drugs and then in the next breath caught you for the usage of drugs.
@@bridge_four Given that stasis was discovered and tons of guardians have begun using it, that statement doesn't make sense. Those same guardians who Shin tempted almost definitely would have used Stasis, and fallen because of it.
Theory time: the darkness is using shayura. So far she seems to only have killed stasis guardians that are still allied with the tower. This may be an attempt by the darkness to destroy guardians that can toe the line of light and dark, and increase the ratio of corrupt to balanced guardians.
@@tuttuti123 exactly, the darkness wants to be the only faction with stasis weirdest; it wants to corrupt as many guardians as possible and kill the others
Brother Vance is MUCH more than that. Really, read his lore entries. He is the one who came up with the trials, he is the one who noticed the songs of death, he is much more interesting than just being a fan of Osiris
@@bfedezl2018 Too bad that nothing of that ever made it into his voice lines in Curse of Osiris. There he realy comes across as little more than a fan boy wiith an overinflated ego. So it's no wonder most players see him through this lense.
Saw a comment that I totally vibe with, if Shin came to try and pull her back from her craziness, they could have an epic battle to settle things and give us either redemption or closure. Love the videos, keep it up!
With Shin’s grey outlook, letting Guardians live who are able to walk the line in between, like Eris, Drifter, and Elsie are by wielding the Light and Stasis, it makes me wonder if Shin would be capable of working with them. The four of them seem to be of the same mind set: a grey outlook in which wielding light and dark is necessary to survive and defeat their enemies. Though I don’t know if Shin would be willing to learn Stasis. Or accept it. The other three understand that the very future of humanity is at stake. But I don’t know if Shin’s goals would align with theirs.
How many civilians did Shin kill in his early crusade? Because from where I'm standing, the murder or an Eliksni civilian and taking trophies paints a pretty large divide from young Shin and Current Shayura. In addition, the Joker comparison lacks context. Joker had no support system in place to slow or stop his fall to madness. Shayura has both a fireteam and the support of the tower. Hunting darkness wielding guardians, killing allied aliens (yes, they are former enemies of Humanity and most still count), and escaping Vanguard custody is not comparable to creating a honey pot in the guise of a cult to weed out guardians that lose themselves to the dark. Shin may have started out as a full Knight Templar, but he changed his methods long before he put his trust in us. Shayura is taking trophies. A sane person who believes in their cause does not take trophies. That's the mark of a hunter who sees prey and and not people. Shin simply killed and moved on. Could she be redeemed? Possibly. The question is, in her religious fervor, will she want it too? Shin knew that a balance could be made even subconsciously. He killed because he saw first hand the damage a corrupted Guardian could do and the risk of that was too much. Shayura has seen BOTH sides of that and yet has made a conscious choice of killing all who wield the dark. The threat she presents to our limited firepower while the wolves are literally at the door cannot be tolerated. When Shin was confronted by Aunor he stood down. Why? Not because he couldn't have taken them. His Golden Gun was already lit and the lore presents him as the fastest draw of all Guardians. He stood down because it wasn't worth it. He gave them a shot and a warning that should they cross the line again, their lives were forfeit. Shayura wouldn't have. There paths are similar, yes , but Shin was never presented with the sheer zealotry that Shayura has. His methods, then and now have always sided pragmatically. Early it was touch the dark, and die for the risk is too great. Now its use the dark responsibly. Shayura so far lacks the pragmatic view point that drove Shin. Zealotry very rarely leads to redemption, and with the enemies at our gates, we don't have time for that. Better to lose one rouge and unhinged Guardian, than countless others who, yes, may be a sleeper threat, but while stand the walls and hold the line.
I know I'm late but would you say that Shin's signature kill is a trophy? I mean anyone who sees the silhouette of a person on a rock or building knows Shin was there. Would you not agree that it is a trophy in a sense?
no, you didnt convince me that shes the new shin, but instead a foil to him. yea they are very similar in what they do and why they do it, its the how they go about doing it that makes them different. im glad that their similar enough to draw comparisons but not the same character. itd be pretty boring to have another shin running around. shayura is like the dark gray to shins lighter shade of gray. if that makes sense. another great vid!
an important part of this debate is context. in Shin's time their wasn't an example of a guardian wielding the darkness without becoming a puppet of the darkness, now in Shayura's time there is many examples of this grey. Shin was able to recognise the Grey the moment it appeared, Shayura is unable to identify the grey such as in her fireteam member. I think Shayura could be redeemed and forgiven but i think it will take more for her than with Shin because she is wilfully ignorant. I think "Shayura is the new Shin" is probably a bad statement. Shin is more a Vigilante (takes Justice in their own hands) and Shayura is more a Well-Intentioned Extremist (someone who goes too far in the name of the greater good), this is purely because of the environment they are in if Shayura did this in the dark ages than she'd be more of a vigilante like shin.
It’s clear Shin is more of a chaotic good, while Shayura is a lawful evil. I just hope, if Aisha tracks her down, she won’t be forced to kill her friend with stasis.
I believe this is what is called a “Joker Paradox”. Is the Joker bad by nature or nurture ;by the events leading to the tipping point to becoming the joker. Would Shay kill eventually without her trauma and that trauma just escalated the tipping point or is it because of the trauma ,(I’d say is because) but trauma alone doesn’t give justification ,or sympathy, for a heinous act. I believe this all stems from a mistake of word. “Shayura is like a young Shin.” However there is a gap for a justice like Shin’s since he left. Maybe Bungie will redeem her ,like Shin, but I feel like Bungie is gonna try to tell a story of the WHOLE fireteam and are setting up Shay to knock her down, but it would be a nice change of pace to have a good ending to this story.
You’ve got shin malphur who roots out and kills dark guardians to find the best candidates to create grey guardians. Then there’s aunor who will go after any rogue guardian that could be a threat to the city, but she doesn’t kill ghosts, instead she reeducates and rehabilitates. Finally, Shayura, who kills any dark guardians because she believes them to be corrupted beyond help and a threat to the light. All three are along a similar path but with differences in their methods and reasoning. I’m interested to see how this progresses
Shin Shin is a vigilante with a moral code he came up with. Shayura is a Templar of the praxis faith. One who creates their own way are easier to change if they find a reason to. One who follow another's code is not easily swayed from that path. This is like batman vs a d&d paladin.
Great video. Its stuff like this that make me think people just didnt pay attention in season of the drifter. How you could walk away from the thorn tab thinking that shin not only wasnt outright evil at one point, but even the good guiy in his bloody crusade is bizarre. He always was a mirror to Yor, crazed, but having an underlying method to his madness. He's Yor if he had a chance at redemption
Lots of great points here but ultimately the key point that shows us where the difference really lies is the mental state. Shin had a hard life that taught him very polarized worldviews at an early age. He's of sound mind so with time he learns to soften his view and become more tolerant of Guardians who go beyond the light for the right reasons. Shayura on the other hand, went completely off the deep end because of trauma fighting the hive lightless on Titan. Her mind is fractured and clings on to dogma as a crutch to see herself through life and follow her "purpose". Her fate looks to be sealed as she descends into madness and she even goes as far as taking trophies in the forms of remnants of her victims (like skulls) and then adorns her ship with them. This is completely out of line for anyone who claims not to be a hero and not a villain.
Reminder that the lore entry about Shin dealing in absolutes is from before he reveals that he is Dredgen Vale and is still keeping up the facade of his legend. We know Shin at this point already knows that there is grey in this war of Light and Darkness, as he had already been running the Shadows of Yor with this mindset. We have no knowledge of Shin hunting Guardians wielding the Darkness before the formation of the Shadows of Yor. We know that Shin’s change in perspective started the moment he gunned down Dredgen Yor. Therefore I don’t think it’s fair to try to paint Shin in the same light. Shin Malphur the man killed Dredgen Yor out of revenge and to serve justice for the countless he’d murdered. Shin Malphur the legend hunted down and killed those tempted by the banner of the Shadows who were not up to the task of wielding darker powers without succumbing to them. Shayura the fanatic meanwhile is murdering Guardians who use Stasis no questions asked, no wiggle room. She doesn’t believe that the Eliksni can be anything but Fallen. The two are leagues apart.
Shayura is everything shin isn’t Shin isn’t a rabid dog who strikes at anything “dark” like a defensive dog barking at movement, he gives everyone a chance, use the darkness? Great. fall to the darkness? Die.
Shayura collected the dead ghosts and skulls as trophies of her kills, if she is keeping trophies; she enjoys these killings. Shayura is using the justification of stasis users betraying the light as an excuse to continue killing. Why keep trophies is you weren’t proud of what you have done. If our guardian killed someone for falling to the darkness, we would not tote around a skull to show it off (not counting bosses as weapons and armor).
I think the big difference is that Shayura is murdering guardians who haven't turned at all, simply for coexisting with the Eliksni of house Light, which is something that would immediately put her on the top of Shin's list. Shayura has rejected the will of the light, cooperation, and become corrupted by the dark. Also, remember that Shin started in the Dark Age, without the context that Shayura clearly has access to.
First of all, before I listen any further(2:18) you handled that beautifully. 👏 No negativity but warmly embracing and encouraging tasteful debate and disagreement. Masterful. Alright on to the lore.
Shin baiting guardians just to see who would fall to darkness is wrong in of itself. If hes done that hes guiding them to a fate they may not have followed had he not intervened or atleast in the way that he did. He would be the cause of corrupted guardians by that method.
But those same guardians could've followed it sooner or later, and they would've taken the stumble. Shin did like we do with diseases. Cull the guardians who would before they become a threat.
@@vanvan5761 key word there is could've, like a car COULD explode due to a major mechanical failure or damage to the fuel tank, but if you cover it in gasoline it's way more likely to explode. I understand his thought process but this is literally why the idea of things like entrapment (the legal term, not action) is illegal.
@@VailAn-Tek yea exactly. At that point youre just assuming someone will do a crime before they do so without any real evidence if they'd act on it or not.
Great video! I too see them as very much alike. People are seduced by Shin’s legend and propaganda, which we all were fed in heaping doses since D1. He was put on a pedestal like Saint-14, before we became the godslayers we are now. If anything, Shin is thge more dangerous of the two because he’s so manipulative. He’s also been preemptively murdering guardians for centuries, whereas Shay has been killing them AFTER they embrace darkness, and she’s only been doing so for months.
You know having Shin and Shayura appear would actually be pretty cool Seeing their different perspectives on things would be a welcowk introduction to where the story is going with the Darkness and the use of the abilities and power it promises with its corruption
Though you are right, these are trying times. We are at war and fighting each other is not the way. In Shin’s time he could go through what he went through because there was no direct threat against the traveler and humanity. Everything is different now, Shayura killing guardians in a time where there is no option but to turn to darkness is not great for her character. To me it doesn’t really matter what either of them did but instead how it directly affects the efforts against the darkness because that is the most important thing. Great video, I really enjoy this new debate style thing!
7:10 you're plain and simply wrong.. as the lore entries progressed, shin dropped the 'black and white' facáde. He ALWAYS believed in the grey because he was dredgen vale the whole time. I dont know how you missed this
He seems to be stuck in making a weird shin Shayura comparison while Bungie is very clearly making out Shayura to just be a “failed” shin She won’t become a legend like the man with the golden gun, she will be remember as a killer, she will be remember on the lines of a villain like Dredgen Yor, not as a legend to inspire fear unto those who seek to harm humanity like the gunslinger
Shin has the benefit of his legend to lend him weight to his decisions being always right. Every time we heard about him it was his legend of how he was the one who killed Dredgen Yor so who else would be better fit to pass judgement on others? Now you take Shayura who is a mentally and spiritual broken monster who sees nothing but everyone who uses light is good and everyone who uses darkness is bad. Her snapping and turning on a guardian in Trials because of what happened to her in old chicago doesn't give her the benefit of a doubt that Palamon does to Shin. It makes me wonder what she would have done if she ran into Katabisis who ran away from being a guardian and willingly worked for Calus who was messing around with darkness itself. So far we have never seen or heard mention of him using stasis but he chose to live in the face of the fear of annihiliation which is one of the points she uses in her mind to condem people who wield stasis.
Have always believed that Shin was an unsanctioned vigilante - almost immediately after his “reveal” to us in that lore. It’s alway his “word” about a guardians potential. Dredgen Yor, conquered him in the end. Vale, Yor and Shayura are simply self appointed vigilantes who live to kill. They started differently - same in the end. Evil
Anyone realize the praxic order are super sketchy? Like rehabilitation? Re-education? That isn't something any free society considers acceptable in any form. That isn't corrupted guardians btw. That's guardians like us. Having a splinter means re-education. I remember a book just like that...
First - that I got quoted on one of your lore videos, as a guy who has been watching your videos and listening to your podcasts for years, it made my day. Second - your points in this video are very well taken. Perhaps Shayura is walking the same path as Shin, to a certain degree. And it’s funny, over on Byf’s channel I’ve been discussing Clovis Bray and his actions and how he’s not simple, as life isn’t simple. I believe the same goes for Shin and Shayura - nothing is simple. Their motivations, their actions, both driven by a complex set of emotions. I also believe Shayura is not beyond redemption, nor is Shin totally justified. Perhaps we look down on her and hold Shin up because in a way, Shin has been redeemed to some extent and she hasn’t, yet. Maybe we as guardians will have a hand in bringing her back one day, much like Shin. We can only hope, she kicks quite a bit of ass and I’d hate to lose her.
From my perspective shin gives you a chance to explain urself and is willing to help you control the light and darkness within u she would rather accuse you and outright kill you for using darkness
LOVE the discussion format of the video. *my guardian hearing about a crazy warlock out hunting stasis users as he looks down at his chilled icy hand* 👀👀👀
I think in a way Shayura is following down the path of young Shin, maybe at the end when Shayura goes up against her old fire team, Shin would step in to share his knowledge and experience with both the darkness and the light, it would certainly make for an interesting ending to this repetition of history.
To be honest, I think... Repeating Shin's story with Shayura would just be... lazy. We're getting to a point where Guardians are using the Darkness, and the Hive are using the Light. A world of grays, where the line between light and dark are "so very thin." And do we know what side we're on? When we trade weapons with the enemy, are we so different? Were we ever so different? I dont think that redemption is the direction that Shayura is being taken in. I think Shayura is being used to exemplify what the Warlords of the Dark Age have already shown: that not all that wield Light are innately good, and perhaps, that even without seeking the Dark, even without the corrupting force of Hive magics and dark whispers and the power of Stasis... one can still fall victim to corruption.
Wish I could "like" this vid more than once. It is REALLY well done. You're comparison to the Joker I think was spot on. The Batman/Joker dichotomy is a great comparison to Shin and Shay. In The Killing Joke, Joker attempts to prove that one bad day can push anyone to be like him. What he doesn't already know, though he suspects, is that it took one bad day to push Bruce Wayne to become Batman. One bad day, and certainly a string of bad days, can push someone to an extreme. I have always compared Shin to Batman (despite the killing); he is very similar in a lot of ways. I would LOVE if Shay became a sort of Joker in the D2 universe. Imagine lore stories where Shay is a little too far gone and can't be reasoned with, can't find the reason and balance Shin comes to find. She remains a bit manic. And then we see Shin attempting to stop her. Shay argues that she is doing the same thing as Shin. I love the idea of this ongoing cat and mouse battle between Shin and Shay behind the scenes. They both started off because of "one bad day," but end in radically different ends of the spectrum.
There is a *String-Catch* at the ends. [Hoarsely 'chuckled' *(**17:28**)* ] for those long examples have been there as long as the documented *Hive's* chance.
I wonder if we'll ever see Shayura meet Shin Malphur? He's gone through what's she's gone through, but her mind has problems, she can't think straight like this and she could maybe use the help of someone whose been through a phase similar to what she's going through.
Honestly, I’ve always thought of Shayura more like Aunor when she first started hunting the drifter. She was jet set on her goal of taking down the drifter, but ultimately changed. She still has her extremely passionate sense of righteousness and justice, but ended up finding middle ground, or finding balance. Aunor has stated that she full heartedly supports Osiris’ theory of balance, even going as far to say that light and dark are both tools to be used and manipulated, rather than the absolute “good and bad.” In contrast, Shayura, like you said, completely deals on absolutes. She’s the Aunor that never found balance. All in all, I’d love to see the two square off!
If anything, (and I said this about your previous video) I would like to see Shin put his money where his mouth is and try to rehabilitate Shayura. The thing I love about Final Fantasy 14, is we don't just rush in and obliterate our enemies-- we always try to find common ground first and failing that, we at least understand where our foes are coming from. And I like that Bungie is doing more of that. The thing that muddies the waters here is the mental health aspect that goes into Shayura's motivations and actions. Shin knew he was killing Guardians-- Shayura doesn't always have that luxury, as evidenced with her hallucination in the ToO match where she saw an undying Hive knight rather than a Guardian. While she may be targeting Guardians now, I think it is her brain trying to justify her abhorrent actions with the Praxic Fire being a coping mechanism. Like how Lakshmi's treatment of Eliksni reflects humanity's real world treatment of refugees, people's visceral reaction to Shayura reflects how humanity stigmatizes mental illness. Bungie keeps using these characters and stories to hold up a mirror to ourselves, and I love that. We may be Guardians, we may be "good", but there are plenty of us who are still shitty people at the end of the day. The best allegories will do this- hold up that mirror showing us our worst qualities and impulses, and demand us to be better.
I really would love to see Shayura's story end similarly to many of the villains in Batman the Animated series. Essentially they kinda reflect Batman in the sense of mental trauma led them to become villains. But it didn't always end with batman beating them up or capturing them physically. In fact, it would often end with the villain finally crumbling to burnout and their trauma. Having a mental breakdown of all they've done and the regret and pain in it all. It would be really cool to get an in game mission that ends with us catching up to Shayura in a state that we peacefully capture her being at the end of her rope. Or more realistically, have Shin Malphur in the lore do this. Then maybe get her a path of redemption or simply recovery. I think especially with themes of forgiveness and facing our "monsters" in this current season, that the lore should start also attempting to reflect some more of this. Rather than just a shootout or big heroic redemption suddenly.
Here's the thing about Shin. He's preaching the same thing as Eris. He believes that only in balance with the light and dark can we achieve victory (or something along those lines). Shayura is completely consumed by the thought that the Darkness is a sign of desperation and that Guardians should only use the light. Shayura is following the legend that Shin built with his duel with Yor and then with following Dredgens without knowing his "shadow of Yor" scheme or even that Shin is a Dredgen himself.
The thing is, light and dark are not inherently evil. They are more like forced of nature that Guardians, and others like them (Elsie, Eris, they don’t see themselves as “Guardians”) wield in use as they please. However, it’s more the wielder, and their actions, that define their morality/allegiance, not the tool. Whether one wields light or dark, they are capable of either good or evil. A light-bearer can do bad. A dark-wielder be good. Shin, like the other three, see things in shades of grey, rather than the Vanguards black & white view. Though he has done questionable things. I’m curious though, if he’d be willing to wield stasis. The question of weather he would really ally with the “Dark Vanguard” remains to be seen. Given Shin has been at this for a long time, his view did eventually change to a grey outlook. While Shayura is more vengeful. They are similar, they kill dark guardians. But they do it for different reasons.
Did we learn what happened to the rest of Shayura's fireteam beneath Old Chicago? There seems to be a lot of Darkness there and the Light did abandon them. Did she have to put them down?
So basically Shin Malphur culled the Guardians who were weak-willed, easily consumed, and unworthy of wielding the Darkness. Sounds like Sword logic to me. Sounds like a little ritual of negation. I believe it’s in the Darkness’s best interest that its powers be bestowed to only those who can wield it to its fullest potential.
I see them as more of two sides of the same coin. Shin being the chaotic good to shayura being the lawful evil. It’s the dynamic between these two, one seeing that the darkness can be used as a tool, as one uses a poison. And the other sees anything touched by the darkness is evil. I love how bungie is working this into the story, the moral gray area.
Things are not so simple as darkness=bad and light=good anymore. Warlords in the dark age wielded the Light and commuted evil acts. So it stands to reason that those who are strong enough to wield stasis but resist corruption may be capable of good. Much like Eris, Drifter, and Elsie. Idk if Shin would be willing to wield stasis, like them and other Guardians, but this change that Shayura is fighting against is inevitable. I think, by Lightfall, all Guardians will control the Light & Dark to combat the Pyramids. Or they may end up wielding the darkness but resisting corruption out of desperation.
When I first heard you say she was like Shin I also disagreed but I think that was because of the persona that was presented in Byf's Last word & Thorn lore project. I saw Shin as a hero serving justice to the lawless like a cowboy from a western. But after hearing all these stories I am more willing to accept their similarities. Well spoken!
I would say that Shayura is an even crazier and more zealous version of Shin and he was always crazy and an extreme zealot who felt like he needed to purge anyone that dabbled with darkness whether they deserved it or not and agree to many of them were innocent or at least semi-innocent like the drifter Shayura is basically a zealous self righteous feral lunatic and the moment she lays eyes on our guardian she’ll most likely try to pull the trigger not just once but most likely abjillion times because in her eyes would be one of the greatest and most dangerous traders a God slayer that she would fear would turn against the traveler and I am to either consume it kill it or just something generally nefarious or insidious or just general evil it is highly likely that Shayura and Shin have without a doubt teamed up and are attempting to form a beyond zealous organization to purge all guardians that we would stasis or any that they feel are unfit to be called a Guardian of light and the organization the shadows of your isn’t exactly making things easier since she claimed that he has disbanded them yet such an idea can never die so easily so they’re most likely trying to build up their strength sooner or later there’s gonna be a three-way war between the zealots of light the fanatics of darkness and us who tread the line between both light and dark but owe allegiances to neither sooner or later everyone will be forced to choose a side even if it’s the wrong side and making a mistake a Civil War is inevitable where there is power there will always be those that desire it as well as those that fear it and desire to purge it The darkness doesn’t need to do anything in order to win a war all it needs to do is offer some trinkets and gifts and let its own enemy be the architect of their own distraction if the hive realize this long ago they would’ve won by having guardians turn amongst each other for the slightest chance of power or because of some self righteous dogma. Like drifter says nothing kills a guardian faster than another guardian so what do you suppose our true enemies are plotting not necessarily knocking down our door and calling for our surrender know most likely they’re using a Trojan horse of some sorts and having us rapidly turn against each other it’s the most logical way to win a war against the ultimate soldiers especially soldiers that have no fear of death so long as they’re diluted by their own power and pride. Sooner or later brother will turn against brother sister against sister friend against friend comrade against comrade the writing is basically all over the wall it is highly likely that The expansion light fall basically entails a guardian Civil War.
Shayura is amazingly written and I would love the read (when I say "read" I mean hearing you read 😎) more about her in the future!! It would be cool if Shin took her in and made her see her ways are bad maybe became part of Shin's fireteam!! Peace!! Great vid as always!!
Really enjoyed the video. It will be interesting to see if this story continues. They've already added a bit more to Aisha's story in one of the Season 14 weapons (Riiswalker, I think?). I also think Bungie wants us to link Shin Malphur and Shayura (to which degree is up to the reader), because the flavor text on Shayura's Wrath SMG is from Shin Malphur...which (I think) is the first time we've heard from Shin for quite some time.
One thing is this, Shin Malfor is so old. He is from a time before Guardians, during the time of the Warlords and before Siva became the threat it was. He has seen and done it all. Sayura is most likely younger in comparison, so does not have the experience that Shin does to make the decisions that he has.
After the Witch Queen livestream and the announcement that The Final Shape DLC is the end of the Light & Darkness Saga, we are coming ever closer to that grey area. But I think the final roadblock before that might be Shayura. A conflict amongst the Guardians might be around the corner.
I like the idea of shin trying to find guardians who can walk the line between light and dark and he will ultimately find the guardian (us) when we seek him out to learn the poison element which is most likely the darkness power he uses.
Shayura. You put this lore into perspective. Shayura has yet to come to the enlightenment that Shin has attained. She needs to go through her own path in order to see if she comes out of this enlightened or lost.
Myelin, on behalf of the silent majority. I apologize for any nasty comments hidden under the veil of "passion" we enjoy this. Everyone here watches this. You are a large volume of this generations dictionary Thanks for all you do.
Iirc, there is another lore card where Aisha defends an eliksni from a human mob using stasis. I think that if Shayura does get redemption it will be bc she finds out that Aisha, a friend, is using stasis; either letting her go or killing her and later feeling regret.
What I get from this is that we should allow for Shayura's growth; to become what Shin us now, a force for balance. I would agree except for one thing.....we are out if time. This is like the time that Shin grew up in. Dealing with the Risen, the Shadow's of Yor, etc. That was all during a time before the Pyramid ships arrived. With the Ships here and Savathun making her play, we are at the endgame. Losing guardians at a time like this is game changing. We need as many guardians as we can get to fight back. Losing even 1 guardian is a tragedy we may be unable to overcome. She needs to be captured or put down as soon as possible. We have no time to allow for her growth.
Another point: when Shin was operating, any use of the Darkness was widely accepted to be unacceptable. But now, using darkness powers is condoned and even encouraged by the only authority that we answer to, using the term loosely. Shin was a renegade anti-hero, but Shayura is a terrorist.
[Paracausal] training.... [20:59]. It is not for the Causal people that 'I'/'we' are protecting anyways. So long it Sticks as training. And Not at the Ghost, or the [Light] within a Guardian *(Sola, Yor, that competitive Titan during a single Trials of Osiris pre-Red War Days, etc).*
When he said it was the first time he's sitting back and allowing it ended the debate for me. If this is the first time he's seen gray it might be because he wasn't looking for it.
I think the difference is mostly in the timing. Shin was when the time before the idea of a grey guardian was a possibility. After we changed his mind we will have stories of those using the Darkness for good. Shayura on the other hand was starting to build her legend when we are accepting Darkness and become more grey. Do to this people are seeing her as a zealot. With Shin we have stories of him hunting those we think will turn evil and against us but Shayura was written when we have guardians using stasis to help others. I agree with the idea that they are similar but his story had to end or he'll be seen from going from "hero" to villain. She is just what he could have been if the story continued.
Different or not, it’s still interesting how they’ve managed to create a story where people can feel so differently about two characters who ultimately are doing the same thing. I love these kind of stories
that's crazy how many people posted very similar thoughts most arguments on topics are more branched out. With mine I did a paragraph argument that probably would've been shortened to maybe half that if I wasn't so tired and probably would've been more coherent if I didn't write it at 3AM(4:53AM atm) awesome how Mylin referenced the lore I posted as well last video to share it with more people that haven't read it.
We have has another redemption story arc, another character we (as Guardians) hated, one we wanted to also kill. We seem to have trouble accepting redemption and prefer to demand justice - for others. That other redemption story was, of course, about Uldren Sov. Shayura.
Something I have in my head cannon is that there are a lot less guardians than we realize. In the beginning I thought of guardians in the thousands. Now as I read the lore, it just seems to me to make more sense that we are very few. Shin and Shayura can patrol almost all of us on their own. A loss of a guardian is extremely devastating and represents the real loss of a major military and defensive asset. I dunno. Everyone else probably knew that, but I has the dumb sometimes and I realized this. I tend to think Shayura is a little more on the religious zealot side of things.
Good video, I don't have anything serious to add, so I just want to meme "Guardians will literally murder other darkness wielding guardians instead of going to therapy."
I feel like either we will have to put Shayura down in a future season, as she will finally set her sights on the godslaying guardians who wield the darkness, or we will be the force that convinces her not all darkness wielders are evil or need to be put down. I'd kinda prefer the former, since the latter is basically saying that they reused Shins whole story. It would also be interesting to have the first guardian villain we would deal with in game, to see how everyone would react to that kind of storyline
I think Shayura's story is meant as a reflection of what Shin very well could have ended up as, had we not changed his mind. Her obsession with stamping out any and all users of stasis is, if anything, playing directly into the Darkness's hands.
We would get folded by like 90% of the destiny characters…do people not realize we’re like normal foot soldiers and literally everyone else are like unstoppable one man armies. Zavala cracked the moon in a different timeline If I’m not mistaken…..shin would literally fire one shot and game over our ghosts with the other in the span of half a second.
in terms of shins early fanaticism before he became a dregeon, yes she was almost identical to shin but she has very little in common with current shin. Shin puts down guardians that were unable to control the dark and have fallen to the darknesses influence for example the guardian that tortured her opponent. Shayura only sees black and white and will kill anyone that uses stasis even if such guardian has complete control over their stasis abilites and have used it for good.
The order that lore is released matters. If your theories hinge on lore that's been disproven by later entries, that's... not good theorycrafting, frankly.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
The lore entries quoted to establish that we changed Shin’s mind are from the “Letters from a Renegade” lore book, which is important.
These letters are from Shin but are filled with lies, much like Truth to Power. Shin is maintaining the facade of his legend, the story of a zealot hunting down those who would dare wield the Dark. It isn’t until “For Every Rose, a Thorn”, released a full season later, that Shin Malphur begins to peel back the facade and reveals to us that he is Dredgen Vale and has been perfectly fine with Guardians able to wield dark powers the entire time.
This is an important thing to note. Shin Malphur already accepts that Guardians can wield Darkness, he is trying to cull Guardians that let the Darkness wield them.
Simply thought I’d point that out.
This is a great point. Just spoke about this on stream. THANKS!
@@Zahqariah Minecraft stans are spreading
@@Zahqariah it’s a discount x-men summers brother
@@MyelinGames Yeah, have to say the whole video I was thinking to myself, "but Shin straight-up admits to us that was almost entirely a facade... and he PERSONALLY used the darkness as Dredgen Vale"
I don't think shin kill does who wild the darkness for bad on the lore it say im gonna be "better then him" that mean he's going to do what dredged yor did but different he doesn't do it for revenge he already got he's revenge and loss to dredged yor why because dredged yor wanted to be stop thats why he put the flames of vengeance on shin and shin knows thats he loss thats why he try to do something better then dredged yor by proving that Guardians who wield the darkness can change
Imagine playing gambit to get a god rolled bottom dollar only to get folded by shin as soon as you get it.
I'm sure shin would see this as keeping tabs on the drifter
I really enjoyed making this video. It was good way to recap a character’s lore without just doing a summary video. Hope you enjoy.
Sup, amazing video! Btw I made a vid for u!
It was good! Maybe we could get more later on “hot topics” in the lore.
let’s hope the comments aren’t terrible ,but let’s be real the anonymity youtube gives users brings out the worst of them.
Hope you’re doing good.
It’s unique and refreshing. Well done. :)
Loved this
I loved the way the points were dished out in this video
I really like this approach you are taking with the lore! It is such a unique approach, but it's necessary considering how dense and ambiguous the lore can be. On top of that, you are risking your sanity by engaging so heavily with the comment section but it's admirable and I think it'll pay off
This is true....
@@MyelinGames yeah don’t be afraid to take breaks for mental health if you can afford to, look after yourself guardian
God this is so good. Thank you for pointing out that Shin isn't just a boring "anti-hero." He is SO much better than that. Shayura too. I love these two characters. They are so much more complicated than the simple good and bad that people try to pinhold them to.
Nah dude shayura is literally an unhinged murderer
@@slorbonmyknorb777 Real helpful to the convo
@@slorbonmyknorb777 Shin literally baited people to the darkness and the killed them after SHIN tempted them how is that not unhinged
@@slorbonmyknorb777 Shin was literally employing Entrapment techniques, Those "weak-guardians" wouldn't even have steered towards darkness if shin didn't make way for them, imagine a cop getting you addicted to drugs and then in the next breath caught you for the usage of drugs.
@@bridge_four Given that stasis was discovered and tons of guardians have begun using it, that statement doesn't make sense. Those same guardians who Shin tempted almost definitely would have used Stasis, and fallen because of it.
Theory time: the darkness is using shayura. So far she seems to only have killed stasis guardians that are still allied with the tower. This may be an attempt by the darkness to destroy guardians that can toe the line of light and dark, and increase the ratio of corrupt to balanced guardians.
Anakin moment eh? Too much army on the light side, gotta balance it out?
@@tuttuti123 exactly, the darkness wants to be the only faction with stasis weirdest; it wants to corrupt as many guardians as possible and kill the others
'Vance: "Ikora Rey, Osiris' Greatest Student!"
Ikora: "brother Vance, Osiris' 'greatest Fan'."' - *(**00:41**).*
Brother Vance is MUCH more than that. Really, read his lore entries. He is the one who came up with the trials, he is the one who noticed the songs of death, he is much more interesting than just being a fan of Osiris
@@bfedezl2018 Too bad that nothing of that ever made it into his voice lines in Curse of Osiris.
There he realy comes across as little more than a fan boy wiith an overinflated ego.
So it's no wonder most players see him through this lense.
@@Bird_Dog00 I think he'll return as guardian in the future.
@@SuperRONDALE :0
@@Bird_Dog00 I think that was cause his V.A died and they didn't recast
Shin seems to be more Centuries experienced in this kind of War than Shayura's more early conviction to what she's still doing currently.
Saw a comment that I totally vibe with, if Shin came to try and pull her back from her craziness, they could have an epic battle to settle things and give us either redemption or closure. Love the videos, keep it up!
With Shin’s grey outlook, letting Guardians live who are able to walk the line in between, like Eris, Drifter, and Elsie are by wielding the Light and Stasis, it makes me wonder if Shin would be capable of working with them. The four of them seem to be of the same mind set: a grey outlook in which wielding light and dark is necessary to survive and defeat their enemies. Though I don’t know if Shin would be willing to learn Stasis. Or accept it. The other three understand that the very future of humanity is at stake. But I don’t know if Shin’s goals would align with theirs.
Nope
How many civilians did Shin kill in his early crusade? Because from where I'm standing, the murder or an Eliksni civilian and taking trophies paints a pretty large divide from young Shin and Current Shayura. In addition, the Joker comparison lacks context. Joker had no support system in place to slow or stop his fall to madness. Shayura has both a fireteam and the support of the tower. Hunting darkness wielding guardians, killing allied aliens (yes, they are former enemies of Humanity and most still count), and escaping Vanguard custody is not comparable to creating a honey pot in the guise of a cult to weed out guardians that lose themselves to the dark. Shin may have started out as a full Knight Templar, but he changed his methods long before he put his trust in us. Shayura is taking trophies. A sane person who believes in their cause does not take trophies. That's the mark of a hunter who sees prey and and not people. Shin simply killed and moved on. Could she be redeemed? Possibly. The question is, in her religious fervor, will she want it too? Shin knew that a balance could be made even subconsciously. He killed because he saw first hand the damage a corrupted Guardian could do and the risk of that was too much. Shayura has seen BOTH sides of that and yet has made a conscious choice of killing all who wield the dark. The threat she presents to our limited firepower while the wolves are literally at the door cannot be tolerated. When Shin was confronted by Aunor he stood down. Why? Not because he couldn't have taken them. His Golden Gun was already lit and the lore presents him as the fastest draw of all Guardians. He stood down because it wasn't worth it. He gave them a shot and a warning that should they cross the line again, their lives were forfeit. Shayura wouldn't have. There paths are similar, yes , but Shin was never presented with the sheer zealotry that Shayura has. His methods, then and now have always sided pragmatically. Early it was touch the dark, and die for the risk is too great. Now its use the dark responsibly. Shayura so far lacks the pragmatic view point that drove Shin. Zealotry very rarely leads to redemption, and with the enemies at our gates, we don't have time for that. Better to lose one rouge and unhinged Guardian, than countless others who, yes, may be a sleeper threat, but while stand the walls and hold the line.
Yeah I was pretty much thinking the same thing here, but I'm not sure others will see it this way.
I know I'm late but would you say that Shin's signature kill is a trophy? I mean anyone who sees the silhouette of a person on a rock or building knows Shin was there. Would you not agree that it is a trophy in a sense?
no, you didnt convince me that shes the new shin, but instead a foil to him. yea they are very similar in what they do and why they do it, its the how they go about doing it that makes them different. im glad that their similar enough to draw comparisons but not the same character. itd be pretty boring to have another shin running around. shayura is like the dark gray to shins lighter shade of gray. if that makes sense. another great vid!
an important part of this debate is context.
in Shin's time their wasn't an example of a guardian wielding the darkness without becoming a puppet of the darkness, now in Shayura's time there is many examples of this grey. Shin was able to recognise the Grey the moment it appeared, Shayura is unable to identify the grey such as in her fireteam member. I think Shayura could be redeemed and forgiven but i think it will take more for her than with Shin because she is wilfully ignorant.
I think "Shayura is the new Shin" is probably a bad statement. Shin is more a Vigilante (takes Justice in their own hands) and Shayura is more a Well-Intentioned Extremist (someone who goes too far in the name of the greater good), this is purely because of the environment they are in if Shayura did this in the dark ages than she'd be more of a vigilante like shin.
It’s clear Shin is more of a chaotic good, while Shayura is a lawful evil. I just hope, if Aisha tracks her down, she won’t be forced to kill her friend with stasis.
I believe this is what is called a “Joker Paradox”. Is the Joker bad by nature or nurture ;by the events leading to the tipping point to becoming the joker. Would Shay kill eventually without her trauma and that trauma just escalated the tipping point or is it because of the trauma ,(I’d say is because) but trauma alone doesn’t give justification ,or sympathy, for a heinous act.
I believe this all stems from a mistake of word. “Shayura is like a young Shin.” However there is a gap for a justice like Shin’s since he left.
Maybe Bungie will redeem her ,like Shin, but I feel like Bungie is gonna try to tell a story of the WHOLE fireteam and are setting up Shay to knock her down, but it would be a nice change of pace to have a good ending to this story.
You’ve got shin malphur who roots out and kills dark guardians to find the best candidates to create grey guardians.
Then there’s aunor who will go after any rogue guardian that could be a threat to the city, but she doesn’t kill ghosts, instead she reeducates and rehabilitates.
Finally, Shayura, who kills any dark guardians because she believes them to be corrupted beyond help and a threat to the light.
All three are along a similar path but with differences in their methods and reasoning. I’m interested to see how this progresses
Shin
Shin is a vigilante with a moral code he came up with. Shayura is a Templar of the praxis faith. One who creates their own way are easier to change if they find a reason to. One who follow another's code is not easily swayed from that path. This is like batman vs a d&d paladin.
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes”
Great video. Its stuff like this that make me think people just didnt pay attention in season of the drifter. How you could walk away from the thorn tab thinking that shin not only wasnt outright evil at one point, but even the good guiy in his bloody crusade is bizarre. He always was a mirror to Yor, crazed, but having an underlying method to his madness. He's Yor if he had a chance at redemption
Lots of great points here but ultimately the key point that shows us where the difference really lies is the mental state. Shin had a hard life that taught him very polarized worldviews at an early age. He's of sound mind so with time he learns to soften his view and become more tolerant of Guardians who go beyond the light for the right reasons. Shayura on the other hand, went completely off the deep end because of trauma fighting the hive lightless on Titan. Her mind is fractured and clings on to dogma as a crutch to see herself through life and follow her "purpose". Her fate looks to be sealed as she descends into madness and she even goes as far as taking trophies in the forms of remnants of her victims (like skulls) and then adorns her ship with them. This is completely out of line for anyone who claims not to be a hero and not a villain.
Reminder that the lore entry about Shin dealing in absolutes is from before he reveals that he is Dredgen Vale and is still keeping up the facade of his legend.
We know Shin at this point already knows that there is grey in this war of Light and Darkness, as he had already been running the Shadows of Yor with this mindset.
We have no knowledge of Shin hunting Guardians wielding the Darkness before the formation of the Shadows of Yor. We know that Shin’s change in perspective started the moment he gunned down Dredgen Yor. Therefore I don’t think it’s fair to try to paint Shin in the same light.
Shin Malphur the man killed Dredgen Yor out of revenge and to serve justice for the countless he’d murdered. Shin Malphur the legend hunted down and killed those tempted by the banner of the Shadows who were not up to the task of wielding darker powers without succumbing to them.
Shayura the fanatic meanwhile is murdering Guardians who use Stasis no questions asked, no wiggle room. She doesn’t believe that the Eliksni can be anything but Fallen.
The two are leagues apart.
Thank you! For a "lore youtuber" i'm rather disappointed that he didnt see those clear facts in front of him
Shayura is everything shin isn’t
Shin isn’t a rabid dog who strikes at anything “dark” like a defensive dog barking at movement, he gives everyone a chance, use the darkness? Great. fall to the darkness? Die.
Shayura collected the dead ghosts and skulls as trophies of her kills, if she is keeping trophies; she enjoys these killings. Shayura is using the justification of stasis users betraying the light as an excuse to continue killing.
Why keep trophies is you weren’t proud of what you have done. If our guardian killed someone for falling to the darkness, we would not tote around a skull to show it off (not counting bosses as weapons and armor).
I think the big difference is that Shayura is murdering guardians who haven't turned at all, simply for coexisting with the Eliksni of house Light, which is something that would immediately put her on the top of Shin's list. Shayura has rejected the will of the light, cooperation, and become corrupted by the dark.
Also, remember that Shin started in the Dark Age, without the context that Shayura clearly has access to.
The main lore of Shayura’s wrath is her murdering a guardian and eliksni for simply talking to each other, she’s too far gone to be redeemed
First of all, before I listen any further(2:18) you handled that beautifully. 👏 No negativity but warmly embracing and encouraging tasteful debate and disagreement. Masterful.
Alright on to the lore.
The Gunslinger and the Zealot, it would certainly be interesting to see them meet, and how his experience can shape her path.
Shin baiting guardians just to see who would fall to darkness is wrong in of itself. If hes done that hes guiding them to a fate they may not have followed had he not intervened or atleast in the way that he did. He would be the cause of corrupted guardians by that method.
But those same guardians could've followed it sooner or later, and they would've taken the stumble. Shin did like we do with diseases. Cull the guardians who would before they become a threat.
@@vanvan5761 key word there is could've, like a car COULD explode due to a major mechanical failure or damage to the fuel tank, but if you cover it in gasoline it's way more likely to explode. I understand his thought process but this is literally why the idea of things like entrapment (the legal term, not action) is illegal.
@@VailAn-Tek yea exactly. At that point youre just assuming someone will do a crime before they do so without any real evidence if they'd act on it or not.
Shayura be like: "I don't do if, buts or maybe; i do absolutes. You get what i'm saying?"
Shayura and shin. It's her destiny after all. What lies a head is not done by are hands. But her past dose hold mirrors.
Great video! I too see them as very much alike. People are seduced by Shin’s legend and propaganda, which we all were fed in heaping doses since D1. He was put on a pedestal like Saint-14, before we became the godslayers we are now. If anything, Shin is thge more dangerous of the two because he’s so manipulative. He’s also been preemptively murdering guardians for centuries, whereas Shay has been killing them AFTER they embrace darkness, and she’s only been doing so for months.
You know having Shin and Shayura appear would actually be pretty cool
Seeing their different perspectives on things would be a welcowk introduction to where the story is going with the Darkness and the use of the abilities and power it promises with its corruption
Though you are right, these are trying times. We are at war and fighting each other is not the way. In Shin’s time he could go through what he went through because there was no direct threat against the traveler and humanity. Everything is different now, Shayura killing guardians in a time where there is no option but to turn to darkness is not great for her character. To me it doesn’t really matter what either of them did but instead how it directly affects the efforts against the darkness because that is the most important thing. Great video, I really enjoy this new debate style thing!
Well until shayura gives me an exotic that breaks the crucible I'll be sticking with shin
looks at sayuras wrath................
7:10 you're plain and simply wrong.. as the lore entries progressed, shin dropped the 'black and white' facáde. He ALWAYS believed in the grey because he was dredgen vale the whole time. I dont know how you missed this
He seems to be stuck in making a weird shin Shayura comparison while Bungie is very clearly making out Shayura to just be a “failed” shin
She won’t become a legend like the man with the golden gun, she will be remember as a killer, she will be remember on the lines of a villain like Dredgen Yor, not as a legend to inspire fear unto those who seek to harm humanity like the gunslinger
@@Goblinhandler exactly.
Shin has the benefit of his legend to lend him weight to his decisions being always right. Every time we heard about him it was his legend of how he was the one who killed Dredgen Yor so who else would be better fit to pass judgement on others? Now you take Shayura who is a mentally and spiritual broken monster who sees nothing but everyone who uses light is good and everyone who uses darkness is bad. Her snapping and turning on a guardian in Trials because of what happened to her in old chicago doesn't give her the benefit of a doubt that Palamon does to Shin. It makes me wonder what she would have done if she ran into Katabisis who ran away from being a guardian and willingly worked for Calus who was messing around with darkness itself. So far we have never seen or heard mention of him using stasis but he chose to live in the face of the fear of annihiliation which is one of the points she uses in her mind to condem people who wield stasis.
Have always believed that Shin was an unsanctioned vigilante - almost immediately after his “reveal” to us in that lore. It’s alway his “word” about a guardians potential. Dredgen Yor, conquered him in the end. Vale, Yor and Shayura are simply self appointed vigilantes who live to kill. They started differently - same in the end. Evil
Anyone realize the praxic order are super sketchy? Like rehabilitation? Re-education? That isn't something any free society considers acceptable in any form.
That isn't corrupted guardians btw. That's guardians like us. Having a splinter means re-education. I remember a book just like that...
First - that I got quoted on one of your lore videos, as a guy who has been watching your videos and listening to your podcasts for years, it made my day.
Second - your points in this video are very well taken. Perhaps Shayura is walking the same path as Shin, to a certain degree. And it’s funny, over on Byf’s channel I’ve been discussing Clovis Bray and his actions and how he’s not simple, as life isn’t simple. I believe the same goes for Shin and Shayura - nothing is simple. Their motivations, their actions, both driven by a complex set of emotions. I also believe Shayura is not beyond redemption, nor is Shin totally justified. Perhaps we look down on her and hold Shin up because in a way, Shin has been redeemed to some extent and she hasn’t, yet. Maybe we as guardians will have a hand in bringing her back one day, much like Shin. We can only hope, she kicks quite a bit of ass and I’d hate to lose her.
You could’ve titled this one “Don’t come for me”
Awesome breakdown. Looking forward to seeing what’s next in Shayura’s story before I pass judgement.
Good stuff Matt, thanks.
Also, Shayura.
From my perspective shin gives you a chance to explain urself and is willing to help you control the light and darkness within u she would rather accuse you and outright kill you for using darkness
LOVE the discussion format of the video.
*my guardian hearing about a crazy warlock out hunting stasis users as he looks down at his chilled icy hand* 👀👀👀
I think in a way Shayura is following down the path of young Shin, maybe at the end when Shayura goes up against her old fire team, Shin would step in to share his knowledge and experience with both the darkness and the light, it would certainly make for an interesting ending to this repetition of history.
She's murdered a few too many people who weren't evil, I don't think Shayura is gonna get any redemption. At this point she's gotta die.
Nope
To be honest, I think... Repeating Shin's story with Shayura would just be... lazy. We're getting to a point where Guardians are using the Darkness, and the Hive are using the Light. A world of grays, where the line between light and dark are "so very thin." And do we know what side we're on? When we trade weapons with the enemy, are we so different? Were we ever so different? I dont think that redemption is the direction that Shayura is being taken in. I think Shayura is being used to exemplify what the Warlords of the Dark Age have already shown: that not all that wield Light are innately good, and perhaps, that even without seeking the Dark, even without the corrupting force of Hive magics and dark whispers and the power of Stasis... one can still fall victim to corruption.
Lore Papa throwin down the gauntlet. Showing the naysayers who is the LORE MASTER, great vid
Wish I could "like" this vid more than once. It is REALLY well done. You're comparison to the Joker I think was spot on. The Batman/Joker dichotomy is a great comparison to Shin and Shay. In The Killing Joke, Joker attempts to prove that one bad day can push anyone to be like him. What he doesn't already know, though he suspects, is that it took one bad day to push Bruce Wayne to become Batman. One bad day, and certainly a string of bad days, can push someone to an extreme. I have always compared Shin to Batman (despite the killing); he is very similar in a lot of ways. I would LOVE if Shay became a sort of Joker in the D2 universe. Imagine lore stories where Shay is a little too far gone and can't be reasoned with, can't find the reason and balance Shin comes to find. She remains a bit manic. And then we see Shin attempting to stop her. Shay argues that she is doing the same thing as Shin. I love the idea of this ongoing cat and mouse battle between Shin and Shay behind the scenes. They both started off because of "one bad day," but end in radically different ends of the spectrum.
There is a *String-Catch* at the ends. [Hoarsely 'chuckled' *(**17:28**)* ] for those long examples have been there as long as the documented *Hive's* chance.
I wonder if we'll ever see Shayura meet Shin Malphur? He's gone through what's she's gone through, but her mind has problems, she can't think straight like this and she could maybe use the help of someone whose been through a phase similar to what she's going through.
Video content aside, you're sounding really good lately! Way more natural in your delivery
Honestly, I’ve always thought of Shayura more like Aunor when she first started hunting the drifter. She was jet set on her goal of taking down the drifter, but ultimately changed. She still has her extremely passionate sense of righteousness and justice, but ended up finding middle ground, or finding balance. Aunor has stated that she full heartedly supports Osiris’ theory of balance, even going as far to say that light and dark are both tools to be used and manipulated, rather than the absolute “good and bad.” In contrast, Shayura, like you said, completely deals on absolutes. She’s the Aunor that never found balance. All in all, I’d love to see the two square off!
This is a great vid. Please do more like this.
If anything, (and I said this about your previous video) I would like to see Shin put his money where his mouth is and try to rehabilitate Shayura. The thing I love about Final Fantasy 14, is we don't just rush in and obliterate our enemies-- we always try to find common ground first and failing that, we at least understand where our foes are coming from. And I like that Bungie is doing more of that.
The thing that muddies the waters here is the mental health aspect that goes into Shayura's motivations and actions. Shin knew he was killing Guardians-- Shayura doesn't always have that luxury, as evidenced with her hallucination in the ToO match where she saw an undying Hive knight rather than a Guardian. While she may be targeting Guardians now, I think it is her brain trying to justify her abhorrent actions with the Praxic Fire being a coping mechanism. Like how Lakshmi's treatment of Eliksni reflects humanity's real world treatment of refugees, people's visceral reaction to Shayura reflects how humanity stigmatizes mental illness. Bungie keeps using these characters and stories to hold up a mirror to ourselves, and I love that. We may be Guardians, we may be "good", but there are plenty of us who are still shitty people at the end of the day. The best allegories will do this- hold up that mirror showing us our worst qualities and impulses, and demand us to be better.
I really would love to see Shayura's story end similarly to many of the villains in Batman the Animated series.
Essentially they kinda reflect Batman in the sense of mental trauma led them to become villains. But it didn't always end with batman beating them up or capturing them physically. In fact, it would often end with the villain finally crumbling to burnout and their trauma. Having a mental breakdown of all they've done and the regret and pain in it all.
It would be really cool to get an in game mission that ends with us catching up to Shayura in a state that we peacefully capture her being at the end of her rope. Or more realistically, have Shin Malphur in the lore do this. Then maybe get her a path of redemption or simply recovery. I think especially with themes of forgiveness and facing our "monsters" in this current season, that the lore should start also attempting to reflect some more of this. Rather than just a shootout or big heroic redemption suddenly.
IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!!! LETS GOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Here's the thing about Shin. He's preaching the same thing as Eris. He believes that only in balance with the light and dark can we achieve victory (or something along those lines).
Shayura is completely consumed by the thought that the Darkness is a sign of desperation and that Guardians should only use the light.
Shayura is following the legend that Shin built with his duel with Yor and then with following Dredgens without knowing his "shadow of Yor" scheme or even that Shin is a Dredgen himself.
The thing is, light and dark are not inherently evil. They are more like forced of nature that Guardians, and others like them (Elsie, Eris, they don’t see themselves as “Guardians”) wield in use as they please. However, it’s more the wielder, and their actions, that define their morality/allegiance, not the tool. Whether one wields light or dark, they are capable of either good or evil. A light-bearer can do bad. A dark-wielder be good. Shin, like the other three, see things in shades of grey, rather than the Vanguards black & white view. Though he has done questionable things. I’m curious though, if he’d be willing to wield stasis. The question of weather he would really ally with the “Dark Vanguard” remains to be seen. Given Shin has been at this for a long time, his view did eventually change to a grey outlook. While Shayura is more vengeful. They are similar, they kill dark guardians. But they do it for different reasons.
This is a really great video! Love the debate structure and that you can include the community some too
I really liked this new format!
Did we learn what happened to the rest of Shayura's fireteam beneath Old Chicago? There seems to be a lot of Darkness there and the Light did abandon them. Did she have to put them down?
"Annihilate me, if you think you can."- My Guardian
Guardian Down
Really enjoy your take, Matt. Keep it up Doc!
So basically Shin Malphur culled the Guardians who were weak-willed, easily consumed, and unworthy of wielding the Darkness. Sounds like Sword logic to me. Sounds like a little ritual of negation. I believe it’s in the Darkness’s best interest that its powers be bestowed to only those who can wield it to its fullest potential.
One final shape 👌
I see them as more of two sides of the same coin. Shin being the chaotic good to shayura being the lawful evil. It’s the dynamic between these two, one seeing that the darkness can be used as a tool, as one uses a poison. And the other sees anything touched by the darkness is evil. I love how bungie is working this into the story, the moral gray area.
Things are not so simple as darkness=bad and light=good anymore. Warlords in the dark age wielded the Light and commuted evil acts. So it stands to reason that those who are strong enough to wield stasis but resist corruption may be capable of good. Much like Eris, Drifter, and Elsie. Idk if Shin would be willing to wield stasis, like them and other Guardians, but this change that Shayura is fighting against is inevitable. I think, by Lightfall, all Guardians will control the Light & Dark to combat the Pyramids. Or they may end up wielding the darkness but resisting corruption out of desperation.
"Too late for That, Shin." [Sighed shaking head slowly at *(**15:27**)* ]
All that is left is the final one. That ominous Yearly expansion....
When I first heard you say she was like Shin I also disagreed but I think that was because of the persona that was presented in Byf's Last word & Thorn lore project. I saw Shin as a hero serving justice to the lawless like a cowboy from a western. But after hearing all these stories I am more willing to accept their similarities. Well spoken!
I would say that Shayura is an even crazier and more zealous version of Shin and he was always crazy and an extreme zealot who felt like he needed to purge anyone that dabbled with darkness whether they deserved it or not and agree to many of them were innocent or at least semi-innocent like the drifter Shayura is basically a zealous self righteous feral lunatic and the moment she lays eyes on our guardian she’ll most likely try to pull the trigger not just once but most likely abjillion times because in her eyes would be one of the greatest and most dangerous traders a God slayer that she would fear would turn against the traveler and I am to either consume it kill it or just something generally nefarious or insidious or just general evil it is highly likely that Shayura and Shin have without a doubt teamed up and are attempting to form a beyond zealous organization to purge all guardians that we would stasis or any that they feel are unfit to be called a Guardian of light and the organization the shadows of your isn’t exactly making things easier since she claimed that he has disbanded them yet such an idea can never die so easily so they’re most likely trying to build up their strength sooner or later there’s gonna be a three-way war between the zealots of light the fanatics of darkness and us who tread the line between both light and dark but owe allegiances to neither sooner or later everyone will be forced to choose a side even if it’s the wrong side and making a mistake a Civil War is inevitable where there is power there will always be those that desire it as well as those that fear it and desire to purge it The darkness doesn’t need to do anything in order to win a war all it needs to do is offer some trinkets and gifts and let its own enemy be the architect of their own distraction if the hive realize this long ago they would’ve won by having guardians turn amongst each other for the slightest chance of power or because of some self righteous dogma. Like drifter says nothing kills a guardian faster than another guardian so what do you suppose our true enemies are plotting not necessarily knocking down our door and calling for our surrender know most likely they’re using a Trojan horse of some sorts and having us rapidly turn against each other it’s the most logical way to win a war against the ultimate soldiers especially soldiers that have no fear of death so long as they’re diluted by their own power and pride. Sooner or later brother will turn against brother sister against sister friend against friend comrade against comrade the writing is basically all over the wall it is highly likely that The expansion light fall basically entails a guardian Civil War.
Awesome as always 👏
Shayura is amazingly written and I would love the read (when I say "read" I mean hearing you read 😎) more about her in the future!!
It would be cool if Shin took her in and made her see her ways are bad maybe became part of Shin's fireteam!!
Peace!! Great vid as always!!
Really enjoyed the video. It will be interesting to see if this story continues. They've already added a bit more to Aisha's story in one of the Season 14 weapons (Riiswalker, I think?). I also think Bungie wants us to link Shin Malphur and Shayura (to which degree is up to the reader), because the flavor text on Shayura's Wrath SMG is from Shin Malphur...which (I think) is the first time we've heard from Shin for quite some time.
One thing is this, Shin Malfor is so old. He is from a time before Guardians, during the time of the Warlords and before Siva became the threat it was. He has seen and done it all. Sayura is most likely younger in comparison, so does not have the experience that Shin does to make the decisions that he has.
Woo! MYELIN! LOVE YOU
After the Witch Queen livestream and the announcement that The Final Shape DLC is the end of the Light & Darkness Saga, we are coming ever closer to that grey area. But I think the final roadblock before that might be Shayura.
A conflict amongst the Guardians might be around the corner.
I like the idea of shin trying to find guardians who can walk the line between light and dark and he will ultimately find the guardian (us) when we seek him out to learn the poison element which is most likely the darkness power he uses.
This is great! The internet: "We have opinions!!!", Myelin Games: "I have examples!"
Very well done sir.
Shayura...for the moment. Let's see how the story pans out
Shayura. You put this lore into perspective. Shayura has yet to come to the enlightenment that Shin has attained. She needs to go through her own path in order to see if she comes out of this enlightened or lost.
Good points were made in this video, interesting watch
Myelin, on behalf of the silent majority. I apologize for any nasty comments hidden under the veil of "passion" we enjoy this. Everyone here watches this. You are a large volume of this generations dictionary
Thanks for all you do.
Iirc, there is another lore card where Aisha defends an eliksni from a human mob using stasis. I think that if Shayura does get redemption it will be bc she finds out that Aisha, a friend, is using stasis; either letting her go or killing her and later feeling regret.
What I get from this is that we should allow for Shayura's growth; to become what Shin us now, a force for balance. I would agree except for one thing.....we are out if time. This is like the time that Shin grew up in. Dealing with the Risen, the Shadow's of Yor, etc. That was all during a time before the Pyramid ships arrived. With the Ships here and Savathun making her play, we are at the endgame. Losing guardians at a time like this is game changing. We need as many guardians as we can get to fight back. Losing even 1 guardian is a tragedy we may be unable to overcome. She needs to be captured or put down as soon as possible. We have no time to allow for her growth.
Another point: when Shin was operating, any use of the Darkness was widely accepted to be unacceptable. But now, using darkness powers is condoned and even encouraged by the only authority that we answer to, using the term loosely. Shin was a renegade anti-hero, but Shayura is a terrorist.
We need to meet these characters in game. Not just through lore cards. Characters like these can be used as a secondary storylines each season.
Agreed
[Paracausal] training.... [20:59].
It is not for the Causal people that 'I'/'we' are protecting anyways.
So long it Sticks as training. And Not at the Ghost, or the [Light] within a Guardian *(Sola, Yor, that competitive Titan during a single Trials of Osiris pre-Red War Days, etc).*
When he said it was the first time he's sitting back and allowing it ended the debate for me. If this is the first time he's seen gray it might be because he wasn't looking for it.
I love your videos and this kind of content these lore debate videos is awesome keep it up
I think the difference is mostly in the timing. Shin was when the time before the idea of a grey guardian was a possibility. After we changed his mind we will have stories of those using the Darkness for good. Shayura on the other hand was starting to build her legend when we are accepting Darkness and become more grey. Do to this people are seeing her as a zealot. With Shin we have stories of him hunting those we think will turn evil and against us but Shayura was written when we have guardians using stasis to help others. I agree with the idea that they are similar but his story had to end or he'll be seen from going from "hero" to villain. She is just what he could have been if the story continued.
Damn good vid. As expected but GG Mylein, way to respect the view of others while giving solid info of your own view 👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾
This thumbnail has meme potential. So much meme potential
Hey man, love your videos. Great stuff
I absolutely agree. I did in the last video too. People are blind because of Shin's hero story
Different or not, it’s still interesting how they’ve managed to create a story where people can feel so differently about two characters who ultimately are doing the same thing. I love these kind of stories
really love this type of video Idea. DO MORE PLS!
that's crazy how many people posted very similar thoughts most arguments on topics are more branched out. With mine I did a paragraph argument that probably would've been shortened to maybe half that if I wasn't so tired and probably would've been more coherent if I didn't write it at 3AM(4:53AM atm) awesome how Mylin referenced the lore I posted as well last video to share it with more people that haven't read it.
Shin
We have has another redemption story arc, another character we (as Guardians) hated, one we wanted to also kill. We seem to have trouble accepting redemption and prefer to demand justice - for others.
That other redemption story was, of course, about Uldren Sov.
Shayura.
Something I have in my head cannon is that there are a lot less guardians than we realize. In the beginning I thought of guardians in the thousands. Now as I read the lore, it just seems to me to make more sense that we are very few. Shin and Shayura can patrol almost all of us on their own. A loss of a guardian is extremely devastating and represents the real loss of a major military and defensive asset. I dunno. Everyone else probably knew that, but I has the dumb sometimes and I realized this. I tend to think Shayura is a little more on the religious zealot side of things.
Good video, I don't have anything serious to add, so I just want to meme "Guardians will literally murder other darkness wielding guardians instead of going to therapy."
Great Vid!!
Dammit myelin, its 25 to midnight and I work tomorrow. I blame you if I'm late for work
I feel like either we will have to put Shayura down in a future season, as she will finally set her sights on the godslaying guardians who wield the darkness, or we will be the force that convinces her not all darkness wielders are evil or need to be put down. I'd kinda prefer the former, since the latter is basically saying that they reused Shins whole story. It would also be interesting to have the first guardian villain we would deal with in game, to see how everyone would react to that kind of storyline
I think Shayura's story is meant as a reflection of what Shin very well could have ended up as, had we not changed his mind. Her obsession with stamping out any and all users of stasis is, if anything, playing directly into the Darkness's hands.
Best destiny story I’ve heard in awhile
I’m mostly amused by the fact that Shin think he can end us!
He’ll just shatterdive us like an absolute g
We would get folded by like 90% of the destiny characters…do people not realize we’re like normal foot soldiers and literally everyone else are like unstoppable one man armies. Zavala cracked the moon in a different timeline If I’m not mistaken…..shin would literally fire one shot and game over our ghosts with the other in the span of half a second.
@@haramberoth117 I think we are at least on par with the other characters
in terms of shins early fanaticism before he became a dregeon, yes she was almost identical to shin but she has very little in common with current shin. Shin puts down guardians that were unable to control the dark and have fallen to the darknesses influence for example the guardian that tortured her opponent. Shayura only sees black and white and will kill anyone that uses stasis even if such guardian has complete control over their stasis abilites and have used it for good.
The order that lore is released matters. If your theories hinge on lore that's been disproven by later entries, that's... not good theorycrafting, frankly.
Do you know which (if any) entries you're referring to? Just wanted to search em up.