This is one of my favorite calls of all time. Bart's facial expressions are absolutely amazing. "The worst drink in the world" had me howling with laughter.
I was playing a 2/5 game once and 2 guys get all the money in on K22 fdraw. First guy tables KK and says 'if I lose this pot I'm quitting poker, you will never see me here again.' Other guy has A2 and rivers quads. Floor immediately gave the guy with KK a lifetime ban and security walks him out. Its tough but the right call, gotta hold players to their statements or its anarchy.
Similar thing happened to me too last year at a casino. 2 guys got it all in on A553, one guy has 33 the other has 55. 33 says 'fuck I'm dead' and they had to call the floor over and the floor supervisor shot him in the face right there and then. I agree these rulings can seem harsh but people need to realise their statements are binding.
Do you think saying "whatever you bet I'll call" should be binding? Let's hear your opinions. Also if you have a crazy floor ruling story of your own share it below.
Same thing happened in Hard Rock Tampa years ago. Decision was binding. Not only did they make the guy put in the money but also said if he didn’t he would be kicked out of the hotel.
I know it's not usually binding but the line of him saying that and then flipping his hand over seems like an angle as well. So, It maybe should be binding if someone says "I'm calling no matter what". Drunk people or people acting drunk can try to get cute with how they play. Everyone worried about the omc angling when the other guy seems like he knew exactly what he was doing with that statement
Also, since it's a statement out of turn, it should be treated the same as an out of turn action maybe? What if there are more than 2 people in the hand? Such a statement affects a 3rd person.
Robert’s Rules of Poker (A Standard Reference for Cash Games): In Robert’s Rules, Section 3.13 on “Verbal Declarations,” it is clear that conditional statements are not enforceable. Only direct and clear statements that indicate action (fold, call, raise) are binding.
Poker dealer here. I had this exact statement said at my table a few weeks ago. I ruled that the statement out of turn could not be binding because the bet changes the action. Do i think it is a potential angle? Possibly. My take on the "seasoned" floor enforcing the call being binding is that he was just trying not to contradict the other floor.
bruh youl made the wrong freaking call. It IS binding to say such things. You aren't dealing poker, you are dealing "Your" narcissitic view of what you think the game SHOULD be!! You should be embarassed by that. You need to read up on binding statements
Bang on. It's no different to out-of-turn action. The other player should ask for confirmation about whether it's binding before acting on it if unsure.
I saw this live and commented same thing, with this logic if the drunk guy had said something like "oh because dealer put 4th heart on river I can't call any bet" and then OMC bluffs, guy calls can OMC claim that he should be forced to fold? tricky spot
I suppose a room can make up whatever rules they want, but I’ve heard people say some version of that line for years trying to get the other player to not bet, never been ruled a call.
I had a guy push all his chips in the middle, took his hands away, and 10 seconds later, after someone had folded but more players were left to act he tossed his hand in the muck, pulled all his chips back and said JUST JOKING. Floor said it was okay, just don't do it again.
I'd never play anywhere that held me to a conditional statement. Nor would I give the money since they legally cant take it from me. I'd walk to a cage. And take my lifetime ban from any room that ruled this
To protect yourself, make a conditional statement prior to every session that you will fold if 4bet by OMCs. It’s binding. Or tell the table “if I have the effective nuts then I will go all in”. Rules are rules.
I've seen this exact same situation a dozen or more times. Some rooms, your statements are binding. If you say, "check in the dark", it's a check and you can't change it. If you say I will call any bet, then you are obligated to call. This is why it is important to read the rules for any Poker Room, and those rules can change over time, you need to stay updated on the rules. This is actually more important at lower stakes, because people do weirder things at lower stakes that you won't see at a professional level.
What if you're pre-flop and before the cards are dealt, you point to three guys at the table. You say: "if any of those three guys raises, I will re-raise them!" One of them open-raises, and the next guy 3-bets.. Now the action folds to you.. Are you forced to 4-bet them with those rules??
But "check in the dark" is completely different, no? The action is on you; you're just acting before the card comes out. But checks or bets in the dark are not saying "IF my opponent does this, THEN I will do this"
@@supersmoo7377 obviously yes you would have to 4-bet. If you couldn't raise then you aren't following your binding action and you can be permanently kicked in that instance
@@supersmoo7377 This is why it's super important to preface any statement like so: "If I CAN raise, AND if any of those three guys raises, I will re-raise" that way you can actually follow through. If you make a binding statement and don't follow through, like "I WILL raise if..." but then you can't raise, then you will get into a lot of trouble
Those are 2 obscenely different circumstances. If you check in the dark facing action it's a check. Not facing action announcing an action that isn't even an action is nothing ever
TDA Rule 49 - Conditional Statements: According to the TDA, conditional statements such as “if-then” comments are not binding. The rule explicitly states that only unconditional statements of action are binding. For instance, “I call” or “I raise $100” must be followed through, but a comment like “If you bet, I’ll fold” is just talk.
But, that's for tournaments, not individual cash games, and is a voluntary participation set of rules. Card rooms can, and often do, make their own rules regarding play in flow, and what's considered binding or not. For instance, once card room may say any chips that cross the line is considered a bet/call, but another card room may rule that the player has to let go of the chips (like in chess) for the bet/call to be binding.
@@stringfellowlocke2214Sure but it's always worth considering the TDA rules in looking at these issues even if they aren't the last word. They tend to be sensible and the product of experience.
TDA Version 2024 Rule 59. Conditional statements of future action are non-standard and strongly discouraged. At TDs discretion they may be binding and/or penalized. Example: “if - then” statements such as “If you bet, I will raise.”
It seems like anything said before the actual bet is just table talk to me. Once the all-in is made, and the guy flips his hand over, I think he was trying to get a read. The guy with the flush made a mistake turning his hand over
This is such a grey area. Best advice is remember to never table your hand until you're sure what villains action is. Ask him, 'Are you calling or are you folding?'
Good comment. Small modification. "What is the action?" Memorize that phrase. If you ask a question including a valid action such as call or fold, anyone might mishear you.
I am SO, SO tired of "Angle play" that happens at low stakes cash games. I had to pay out 200$ the other day on one of the worst delay string bets and after the fact the dealer told me I should have called the floor. That made me even madder after the fact. As for this ruling on this callers instance is absolutely absurd. The action was not on the guy who said he would call any bet so he can say whatever he wants. I wouldn't have paid it.
I live in Connecticut. In my experience, a LOT of bullshit goes on in that card room at Mohegan. Some....not all....but some of the dealers are very weak. That older floor guy is kind of a standoffish douche who tends to favor regulars with whom he has a rapport. Gruff, borderline rude, and definitely makes you feel like an outsider. Also, there are guys who look for easy marks toward the end of the night. They will sit at your table and very obviously signal to one another. Floor does nothing. And finally, a lot of the regs there are super miserable....like, aggressively and obnoxiously miserable if you win a big hand against them. They'll verbally berate you, throw chips, slam the table, swear at you....etc. Floor does nothing because they're regs. Makes for a not great experience in my opinion. But they are open much later than the other rooms in the area....
I've been in this situation in a small FL room, and the dealer gave the same ruling with 100% confidence. No floor called. Makes me think this is a standardized rule somewhere deep in the books.
Such a terrible ruling, I’ve seen this situation come up multiple times and NEVER get ruled this way. That being said, Mohegan sun is one of the most “cliquish” poker rooms I’ve played in, and could totally see the floors handing out different rulings on similar situations depending on who’s involved.
I’m probably in the minority here but I don’t hate this ruling. Mostly because you could argue the drunk whale was trying to angle shoot when he flipped his hand over without making any decisive action.
This is absurd and I believe the caller conveyed the info correctly, but I wonder if the floor misapplied a related rule, for example when players take an action out of turn that is binding unless action changes. I can’t possibly believe this is a thought out rule that was correctly applied.
Yes. It’s a conditional statement. In my 20 years ish playing live poker I’ve seen it enforced two different times. The first time was many years ago in Biloxi MS. The most recent time was about two years ago in a Florida poker room. The first time was so long ago I don’t remember exactly what he said but it was similar to the statement in this hand being called in. The second time was less than two years ago and I remember it well. The player was super drunk. And he told the other player “if you go all in I call.” Same terminology used both times. Conditional statement.
Yesterday, small blind hasn’t acted on the river. Heads up with the cutoff. Before he acts, cutoff says you win. So the small blind turns his cards over and show AKd for Ace high. The cutoff immediately says all in. Floor is called over. Floor ruling is the all in is not valid as the small blind hasn’t acted yet. Cutoff gets a warning for betting out of turn. Small blind checks and cutoff jams. Small blind calls and gets stacked by Q10 off to middle pair. Probably one of the worst angle plays I’ve ever seen.
I might be a bit of a stick in the mud for this, but I agree with the ruling here. When it's not your turn to act, a bit of banter isn't forbidden, but throwing out action words like call, raise, fold, or all in can create confusion. Especially in a group setting, or with background noise, or when a participant has any kind of audio processing disorders. So I feel like if you throw out words like this and cause the other player to think it's a binding call, it's a form of angle shooting, and the best way to punish/discourage angle shooting is to make it binding.
I've played thousands of hours at Mohegan Sun, and never seen as stupid a ruling as this. 100% of the time, they'd say that only statements made with the action on you, are binding. I could see them strongly discouraging, yet still enforcing, a simple conditional statement like "Heads I call, tails I fold" as you flip a coin onto the table with the action on you. And I could see them not enforcing any complex, ambiguous, contradictory, lengthy, or "beyond the pay grade of a below-average dealer to evaluate" conditional statement. Even with the action on you, "If an alien UFO crashed at Roswell, I'm all in" is not an action. Nor is "If you call, it's all over, baby". If someone says "I'll call any multiple of $6, and I'll muck my cards without tabling them, to any multiple of $13" then do you get to bet $78,000 and take all their chips even if they have the winning hand?
What if you're pre-flop (on the button) and before the cards are dealt you say "if it folds to me, I will jam all-in!!" Then it folds to you. You have 300 BB's. Would you be forced to jam all-in if you're playing at that casino??
Happened to me at the Hard Rock hotel in Vegas back in the day. Exact same thing, anything you bet I call. I go all in, he tries to fold and not pay and the dealer made him call and I got paid.
I have a question. I’ve always wanted to do this but not sure if it violates any official or unspoken poker rules. Say I flop a full house with my pocket pair and there’s 2 suited cards (hearts) on the flop. I suspect my opponent is on the flush draw. If I were to call for the heart out loud, hoping that they’ll pay me off if they hit their flush, even with the pair on board, am I out of line? Have I violated any rules? Basically, can you audibly call for a card that you don’t need to try and confuse your opponent? If it’s not a violation of actual card room rules, is it generally bad form or considered Hollywooding etc? Thank you to anyone that weighs in.
Same thing happen to me in Vegas. But I didn’t even really say “ I’ll call whatever you bet”. I said “all the money is going in” on the flop then we played the turn and river normally and the dealer made a big deal and called the floor and they ruled I owe the money
12:04 whoa the floor has way too much power here. With weird interactions like this one where verbal is binding, but there isn't an actual hard answer to how to deal with conditional/hypothetical/if- then statements and it's up to the floor that's a bit much. It's my opinion as a dealer that if the condition of a conditional statement is met in game, the statement becomes binding. You bound yourself to an outcome when you said "if- then," so when "if" happens, "then" you put in the chips.
A BET out of turn (you put $ in but it's not your turn yet) can be forced as a call. At least that's the rule I've seen applied in AC. However, here, his CHECK should be the last binding bet. As Bart suggested, the only thing I wonder is if he somehow said something to indicate a call when he turned over his hand. The floor mentioning a 'conditional statement ' suggests he was basing ruling on 'whatever you bet.' Seems like a bad decision to me.
Nothing in mohegan rulebook says "conditional statement" or anything like that. It's available online. If anything the standard "leaving final decisions to floor" would be used as cover for grey area in this bad ruling
I found that Mohegan has authority to go against the rulebook in order to maintain the integrity of the game, which is what happened here because the angler has had several complaints. He's actually since been banned. (I'm the caller)
A rule that all poker pits should run with is all out of turn action is ignored. Solves a lot of problems. The more you can minimize the need for "etiquette" the less problems and angles you have.
Conditional statements are actions out of turn. Check is the action. It's now the other players turn so anything P1 does is out of turn and not binding. He could even put chips in the pot to pretend to call and that isn't binding because of P2 bets that is changed action and if he checks or folds there is no further action.
I’m sorry but dealers twice have given me the pot when a guy says I’m going all in on this hand I have AA and limp in and he’s forced to go all in and stack him for $300. This was in Vegas
I was just at Mohegan the other day. I had an effective stack of around 300. I had KK. There was a young player knitty player who hadn’t played many pots the whole night, he would get in the action rarely and hadn’t won a pot . He Raises to around 20$, two callers. I 3 bet to 120$ action folds to Preflop raiser. Without much thought he 4 bet jams covering me. Action folds to me and I am in the tank. Something about this situation wanted me to fold knowing the odds of him having AA were high since I block AK and I can see him only doing this with the top of his range. I table my hand and there’s a lot of banter about people “wanting to buy my cards if I fold” and I should “just call” etc. I’m back and forth about whether I should call or fold, really leaning towards a fold since the player type seemed knitty. I ultimately called his jam and sure enough he had AA. Flop comes QQQ basically flopping me dead. The rest of the runout was inconsequential and I get stacked. Would you have played this any different Bart? Would you have folded KK pre-flop?
@@OutlawsAnthony he’s a favorite 80% to 17% preflop. Once the flop comes out, my chance of winning is cut to 8% same amount of outs but less cards to come
I folded Kk once in my life and it was two weeks ago. You will run KK into AA approximately 1 in 25x , so you should be folding KK pre about 4% of the time. Sometimes you just know. My HH $1/3 $400 effective, V has a similar description as yours. Folds to HJ who opens $15, we're on the button with KK. We 3 bet to $50. HJ tanks for almost 2 mins and then 4 bets to $250. Essentially a size that Im going to fold or shove, so he picked a large sizing heads up to commit stacks. I mucked pretty quickly.
@matt5656 but you hit kk sometimes and if you fold wrong once you cost yourself big time. No point in bothering unless it's the once in blue moon set up where an omc 5bets or 6bets and he can only have aa and even then with the dead money may just be worth it to go and hit the 20 percent
It sounds like the floor felt the statement PLUS exposing cards felt too much like an angle. Also how does blind betting slow things down? Hard to imagine a better way to speed up the game than to bet without even waiting for cards to be dealt!
Ridiculous!!! The next time round when facing a potential bet, I'm going to say "I have the nuts, if you bet I will shove and YOU MUST FOLD" and see what happens. I'm going to call the floor if the opponent doesn't fold (I'm bluffing, duh)
I love these calls because even though I’d never put myself in this situation, I learn which rooms to avoid. This is clearly a nothing burger, if Mohegan can screw this up they can screw anything up
⚠️ This rule can hugely favor the regs when pots are subjectively left up to the floor. I've felt up against a pool of regs at small rooms when out of town, but this could/should deter outsiders from playing there. Bad rule, even if best of intentions.
Super weird when thkngs happen out of turn. Clearly these statements are angle-ish trying to persuade action in a given way. another scenario would be if the guy checks, then simply shouts out "i call" or "all in." These are conditional because actuon changes if the current llayer does anything other than check, but also they bith imply that noatter what happens they have announced their play. Like clearly if aomeone out of turn aays 50 and an early not yet acted player raises to 75 the action has changed and it wasnt malicious, but heads up on the river these things i feel should be more discretion based because its such a clear manipulation.
that can NEVER be binding and if it wasn't only sheep at the table, someone would and should have stood up for that poor ruling, regardless of the player who had to pay, slowed the game or not. Brandon you suck! Go get your booster shot
This is one of my favorite calls of all time. Bart's facial expressions are absolutely amazing. "The worst drink in the world" had me howling with laughter.
I was playing a 2/5 game once and 2 guys get all the money in on K22 fdraw. First guy tables KK and says 'if I lose this pot I'm quitting poker, you will never see me here again.' Other guy has A2 and rivers quads. Floor immediately gave the guy with KK a lifetime ban and security walks him out. Its tough but the right call, gotta hold players to their statements or its anarchy.
Similar thing happened to me too last year at a casino. 2 guys got it all in on A553, one guy has 33 the other has 55. 33 says 'fuck I'm dead' and they had to call the floor over and the floor supervisor shot him in the face right there and then. I agree these rulings can seem harsh but people need to realise their statements are binding.
WHAT? That's madness!
Lol
I seen it
Ya'll making shit up lol
Do you think saying "whatever you bet I'll call" should be binding? Let's hear your opinions. Also if you have a crazy floor ruling story of your own share it below.
It’s not binding. I wouldn’t do that but it’s not binding.
Same thing happened in Hard Rock Tampa years ago. Decision was binding. Not only did they make the guy put in the money but also said if he didn’t he would be kicked out of the hotel.
I know it's not usually binding but the line of him saying that and then flipping his hand over seems like an angle as well.
So, It maybe should be binding if someone says "I'm calling no matter what". Drunk people or people acting drunk can try to get cute with how they play.
Everyone worried about the omc angling when the other guy seems like he knew exactly what he was doing with that statement
Also, since it's a statement out of turn, it should be treated the same as an out of turn action maybe? What if there are more than 2 people in the hand? Such a statement affects a 3rd person.
It should be binding
It’s used to intimidate a player from betting
Robert’s Rules of Poker (A Standard Reference for Cash Games): In Robert’s Rules, Section 3.13 on “Verbal Declarations,” it is clear that conditional statements are not enforceable. Only direct and clear statements that indicate action (fold, call, raise) are binding.
Poker dealer here. I had this exact statement said at my table a few weeks ago. I ruled that the statement out of turn could not be binding because the bet changes the action. Do i think it is a potential angle? Possibly.
My take on the "seasoned" floor enforcing the call being binding is that he was just trying not to contradict the other floor.
bruh youl made the wrong freaking call. It IS binding to say such things. You aren't dealing poker, you are dealing "Your" narcissitic view of what you think the game SHOULD be!! You should be embarassed by that. You need to read up on binding statements
@snared_ Seems like Bart and most of the comments disagree.
Bang on. It's no different to out-of-turn action. The other player should ask for confirmation about whether it's binding before acting on it if unsure.
@@snared_What's with the needless aggro?
@@Name-q9x whats with challenging someone who wasnt responding to you?
I saw this live and commented same thing, with this logic if the drunk guy had said something like "oh because dealer put 4th heart on river I can't call any bet" and then OMC bluffs, guy calls can OMC claim that he should be forced to fold? tricky spot
I suppose a room can make up whatever rules they want, but I’ve heard people say some version of that line for years trying to get the other player to not bet, never been ruled a call.
I had a guy push all his chips in the middle, took his hands away, and 10 seconds later, after someone had folded but more players were left to act he tossed his hand in the muck, pulled all his chips back and said JUST JOKING.
Floor said it was okay, just don't do it again.
This is different to me. His chips crossed the line - floor can absolutely make that a call/raise. Its not verbal
At SouthPoint in Las Vegas, they enforce that rule. If you use word play to induce or dissuade a bet, you’re held to it.💯
Good to know, will be there for March Madness
I'd never play anywhere that held me to a conditional statement. Nor would I give the money since they legally cant take it from me. I'd walk to a cage. And take my lifetime ban from any room that ruled this
To protect yourself, make a conditional statement prior to every session that you will fold if 4bet by OMCs. It’s binding. Or tell the table “if I have the effective nuts then I will go all in”. Rules are rules.
@@BamaNick 🤣
I've seen this exact same situation a dozen or more times. Some rooms, your statements are binding. If you say, "check in the dark", it's a check and you can't change it. If you say I will call any bet, then you are obligated to call.
This is why it is important to read the rules for any Poker Room, and those rules can change over time, you need to stay updated on the rules. This is actually more important at lower stakes, because people do weirder things at lower stakes that you won't see at a professional level.
What if you're pre-flop and before the cards are dealt, you point to three guys at the table. You say: "if any of those three guys raises, I will re-raise them!" One of them open-raises, and the next guy 3-bets.. Now the action folds to you.. Are you forced to 4-bet them with those rules??
But "check in the dark" is completely different, no? The action is on you; you're just acting before the card comes out. But checks or bets in the dark are not saying "IF my opponent does this, THEN I will do this"
@@supersmoo7377 obviously yes you would have to 4-bet. If you couldn't raise then you aren't following your binding action and you can be permanently kicked in that instance
@@supersmoo7377 This is why it's super important to preface any statement like so: "If I CAN raise, AND if any of those three guys raises, I will re-raise" that way you can actually follow through. If you make a binding statement and don't follow through, like "I WILL raise if..." but then you can't raise, then you will get into a lot of trouble
Those are 2 obscenely different circumstances. If you check in the dark facing action it's a check. Not facing action announcing an action that isn't even an action is nothing ever
TDA Rule 49 - Conditional Statements: According to the TDA, conditional statements such as “if-then” comments are not binding. The rule explicitly states that only unconditional statements of action are binding. For instance, “I call” or “I raise $100” must be followed through, but a comment like “If you bet, I’ll fold” is just talk.
But, that's for tournaments, not individual cash games, and is a voluntary participation set of rules. Card rooms can, and often do, make their own rules regarding play in flow, and what's considered binding or not. For instance, once card room may say any chips that cross the line is considered a bet/call, but another card room may rule that the player has to let go of the chips (like in chess) for the bet/call to be binding.
@@stringfellowlocke2214Sure but it's always worth considering the TDA rules in looking at these issues even if they aren't the last word. They tend to be sensible and the product of experience.
TDA Version 2024
Rule 59. Conditional statements of future action are non-standard and strongly discouraged. At TDs discretion they may be binding and/or penalized. Example: “if - then” statements such as “If you bet, I will raise.”
It seems like anything said before the actual bet is just table talk to me. Once the all-in is made, and the guy flips his hand over, I think he was trying to get a read. The guy with the flush made a mistake turning his hand over
Apparently not! He likely knew how it would be ruled and took full advantage...
This is such a grey area. Best advice is remember to never table your hand until you're sure what villains action is. Ask him, 'Are you calling or are you folding?'
Good comment. Small modification.
"What is the action?" Memorize that phrase. If you ask a question including a valid action such as call or fold, anyone might mishear you.
"A conditional statement"?! OK, that's a new one. I was 100% under the impression that verbal action out of turn was not binding.
I am SO, SO tired of "Angle play" that happens at low stakes cash games. I had to pay out 200$ the other day on one of the worst delay string bets and after the fact the dealer told me I should have called the floor. That made me even madder after the fact. As for this ruling on this callers instance is absolutely absurd. The action was not on the guy who said he would call any bet so he can say whatever he wants. I wouldn't have paid it.
I live in Connecticut. In my experience, a LOT of bullshit goes on in that card room at Mohegan. Some....not all....but some of the dealers are very weak. That older floor guy is kind of a standoffish douche who tends to favor regulars with whom he has a rapport. Gruff, borderline rude, and definitely makes you feel like an outsider. Also, there are guys who look for easy marks toward the end of the night. They will sit at your table and very obviously signal to one another. Floor does nothing. And finally, a lot of the regs there are super miserable....like, aggressively and obnoxiously miserable if you win a big hand against them. They'll verbally berate you, throw chips, slam the table, swear at you....etc. Floor does nothing because they're regs. Makes for a not great experience in my opinion. But they are open much later than the other rooms in the area....
Gold KK vs Farha AA on HSP had this. Any declarations not in turn is not binding until action is declared by the player who's turn it is
still the funniest and most pathetic poker hand i’ve ever seen
"Your doing this to me with aces" ,
"FINE take it"
I've been in this situation in a small FL room, and the dealer gave the same ruling with 100% confidence. No floor called. Makes me think this is a standardized rule somewhere deep in the books.
So if the Hero says, of “if you go all in, I fold”, do they much his hand? The conditional statement logic makes no sense
Such a terrible ruling, I’ve seen this situation come up multiple times and NEVER get ruled this way. That being said, Mohegan sun is one of the most “cliquish” poker rooms I’ve played in, and could totally see the floors handing out different rulings on similar situations depending on who’s involved.
The commentary on tequila was worth the price of admission on this one
I love non-hand calls. Hopefully we get more to come.🤞
I’m probably in the minority here but I don’t hate this ruling. Mostly because you could argue the drunk whale was trying to angle shoot when he flipped his hand over without making any decisive action.
This is absurd and I believe the caller conveyed the info correctly, but I wonder if the floor misapplied a related rule, for example when players take an action out of turn that is binding unless action changes. I can’t possibly believe this is a thought out rule that was correctly applied.
That's what I was wondering as well except for the 'conditional statement' comment
Yes. It’s a conditional statement. In my 20 years ish playing live poker I’ve seen it enforced two different times. The first time was many years ago in Biloxi MS. The most recent time was about two years ago in a Florida poker room.
The first time was so long ago I don’t remember exactly what he said but it was similar to the statement in this hand being called in.
The second time was less than two years ago and I remember it well. The player was super drunk. And he told the other player “if you go all in I call.”
Same terminology used both times. Conditional statement.
Yesterday, small blind hasn’t acted on the river. Heads up with the cutoff. Before he acts, cutoff says you win. So the small blind turns his cards over and show AKd for Ace high. The cutoff immediately says all in.
Floor is called over.
Floor ruling is the all in is not valid as the small blind hasn’t acted yet.
Cutoff gets a warning for betting out of turn.
Small blind checks and cutoff jams. Small blind calls and gets stacked by Q10 off to middle pair.
Probably one of the worst angle plays I’ve ever seen.
Calling all in with A high? What did he put villain on? He thought after showing tons on weakness villain gonna bluff him?
@ The villain is known for running big bluffs.
1-2 isn't real poker and people shouldn't be allowed to play for that small amount of money. It's a joke. It's the penny slots of poker
I might be a bit of a stick in the mud for this, but I agree with the ruling here. When it's not your turn to act, a bit of banter isn't forbidden, but throwing out action words like call, raise, fold, or all in can create confusion. Especially in a group setting, or with background noise, or when a participant has any kind of audio processing disorders. So I feel like if you throw out words like this and cause the other player to think it's a binding call, it's a form of angle shooting, and the best way to punish/discourage angle shooting is to make it binding.
"If you gold I show my hand" can be binding as well?
I've played thousands of hours at Mohegan Sun, and never seen as stupid a ruling as this. 100% of the time, they'd say that only statements made with the action on you, are binding. I could see them strongly discouraging, yet still enforcing, a simple conditional statement like "Heads I call, tails I fold" as you flip a coin onto the table with the action on you. And I could see them not enforcing any complex, ambiguous, contradictory, lengthy, or "beyond the pay grade of a below-average dealer to evaluate" conditional statement.
Even with the action on you, "If an alien UFO crashed at Roswell, I'm all in" is not an action. Nor is "If you call, it's all over, baby".
If someone says "I'll call any multiple of $6, and I'll muck my cards without tabling them, to any multiple of $13" then do you get to bet $78,000 and take all their chips even if they have the winning hand?
"I had a couple a guys..." - Bart
What if you're pre-flop (on the button) and before the cards are dealt you say "if it folds to me, I will jam all-in!!" Then it folds to you. You have 300 BB's. Would you be forced to jam all-in if you're playing at that casino??
Because that wording is so "iffy" I don't think it would apply. Not a bad question tho. I would like to know myself honestly
Happened to me at the Hard Rock hotel in Vegas back in the day. Exact same thing, anything you bet I call. I go all in, he tries to fold and not pay and the dealer made him call and I got paid.
I have a question. I’ve always wanted to do this but not sure if it violates any official or unspoken poker rules. Say I flop a full house with my pocket pair and there’s 2 suited cards (hearts) on the flop. I suspect my opponent is on the flush draw. If I were to call for the heart out loud, hoping that they’ll pay me off if they hit their flush, even with the pair on board, am I out of line? Have I violated any rules?
Basically, can you audibly call for a card that you don’t need to try and confuse your opponent? If it’s not a violation of actual card room rules, is it generally bad form or considered Hollywooding etc? Thank you to anyone that weighs in.
They would be forced to take my life first then get my chips in that situation lmao what is this bs
That ruling made my blood boil!
Same thing happen to me in Vegas. But I didn’t even really say “ I’ll call whatever you bet”. I said “all the money is going in” on the flop then we played the turn and river normally and the dealer made a big deal and called the floor and they ruled I owe the money
12:04 whoa the floor has way too much power here. With weird interactions like this one where verbal is binding, but there isn't an actual hard answer to how to deal with conditional/hypothetical/if- then statements and it's up to the floor that's a bit much. It's my opinion as a dealer that if the condition of a conditional statement is met in game, the statement becomes binding. You bound yourself to an outcome when you said "if- then," so when "if" happens, "then" you put in the chips.
This is also my opinion as a player. I'm careful with my words while in a hand.
A BET out of turn (you put $ in but it's not your turn yet) can be forced as a call. At least that's the rule I've seen applied in AC. However, here, his CHECK should be the last binding bet.
As Bart suggested, the only thing I wonder is if he somehow said something to indicate a call when he turned over his hand. The floor mentioning a 'conditional statement ' suggests he was basing ruling on 'whatever you bet.' Seems like a bad decision to me.
Nothing in mohegan rulebook says "conditional statement" or anything like that. It's available online. If anything the standard "leaving final decisions to floor" would be used as cover for grey area in this bad ruling
I found that Mohegan has authority to go against the rulebook in order to maintain the integrity of the game, which is what happened here because the angler has had several complaints. He's actually since been banned. (I'm the caller)
Is this different from a check in the dark?
very
i think my local casino would rule this a call also, in order to protect new players, since it's full of pro anglers
A rule that all poker pits should run with is all out of turn action is ignored. Solves a lot of problems. The more you can minimize the need for "etiquette" the less problems and angles you have.
Conditional statements are actions out of turn.
Check is the action.
It's now the other players turn so anything P1 does is out of turn and not binding. He could even put chips in the pot to pretend to call and that isn't binding because of P2 bets that is changed action and if he checks or folds there is no further action.
Sounds like two players angling each other.
Seat 4 needs to call the floor BEFORE he acts on the river, and also should not table his hand before getting clarification.
I’m sorry but dealers twice have given me the pot when a guy says I’m going all in on this hand I have AA and limp in and he’s forced to go all in and stack him for $300. This was in Vegas
I was just at Mohegan the other day. I had an effective stack of around 300. I had KK. There was a young player knitty player who hadn’t played many pots the whole night, he would get in the action rarely and hadn’t won a pot . He Raises to around 20$, two callers. I 3 bet to 120$ action folds to Preflop raiser. Without much thought he 4 bet jams covering me. Action folds to me and I am in the tank. Something about this situation wanted me to fold knowing the odds of him having AA were high since I block AK and I can see him only doing this with the top of his range. I table my hand and there’s a lot of banter about people “wanting to buy my cards if I fold” and I should “just call” etc. I’m back and forth about whether I should call or fold, really leaning towards a fold since the player type seemed knitty. I ultimately called his jam and sure enough he had AA. Flop comes QQQ basically flopping me dead. The rest of the runout was inconsequential and I get stacked. Would you have played this any different Bart? Would you have folded KK pre-flop?
After 3vetting over a third of your stack it's almost always a call. If you 3bet 80ish maybe then you could consider a fold to a super nit imo
@@OutlawsAnthony he’s a favorite 80% to 17% preflop. Once the flop comes out, my chance of winning is cut to 8% same amount of outs but less cards to come
I folded Kk once in my life and it was two weeks ago. You will run KK into AA approximately 1 in 25x , so you should be folding KK pre about 4% of the time. Sometimes you just know.
My HH $1/3 $400 effective, V has a similar description as yours.
Folds to HJ who opens $15, we're on the button with KK. We 3 bet to $50. HJ tanks for almost 2 mins and then 4 bets to $250. Essentially a size that Im going to fold or shove, so he picked a large sizing heads up to commit stacks. I mucked pretty quickly.
@matt5656 but you hit kk sometimes and if you fold wrong once you cost yourself big time. No point in bothering unless it's the once in blue moon set up where an omc 5bets or 6bets and he can only have aa and even then with the dead money may just be worth it to go and hit the 20 percent
Four bet jam at smaller stakes is 100% aces.
The real concern is everyone else telling you to call. Their mouths should be shut.
It sounds like the floor felt the statement PLUS exposing cards felt too much like an angle. Also how does blind betting slow things down? Hard to imagine a better way to speed up the game than to bet without even waiting for cards to be dealt!
If making it binding, tops anglers, im all for it
7:35 in tda you absolutely can get penalized for saying, "whatever you bey I'll call."
Verbal is binding in Vegas
It's NOT A CALL, it is good table talk (almost angle)
I like this non hand call too
Different rooms have different rules
Ridiculous!!! The next time round when facing a potential bet, I'm going to say "I have the nuts, if you bet I will shove and YOU MUST FOLD" and see what happens. I'm going to call the floor if the opponent doesn't fold (I'm bluffing, duh)
I love these calls because even though I’d never put myself in this situation, I learn which rooms to avoid. This is clearly a nothing burger, if Mohegan can screw this up they can screw anything up
Not a binding action. I've never in my life played in a room that would force a call
If they told me I had to call I wouldn’t pay. Get up and leave with my chips. Such a bad ruling.
OMC?
Old man coffee
Old Man Coffee... only 4bets AA and only goes all in postflop with the nuts (nit).
⚠️ This rule can hugely favor the regs when pots are subjectively left up to the floor. I've felt up against a pool of regs at small rooms when out of town, but this could/should deter outsiders from playing there. Bad rule, even if best of intentions.
Bad ruling, ive seen people say "if you bet im gonna call" many times as a joke or to hope they dont bet. But its never considered binding
Sounds like favoritism for a Reg that happens to be an OMC.
Bad ruling by the floor.
These non-hand calls are also my favorite calls
They guy has to wait until he makes an action I think.Do you call or fold?
I like the floor call. Stupid games stupid prizes.
I constantly ask the dealer about the action. It has the secondary beneficial effect of slowing down my play, which is usually way too fast.
Hello Bart 👋
Take the drunks money and give it to the “hero”
Brutal decision
So if I said I have quads but had 2 3 off that means I have quads
Horrible call by the floor imo
Super weird when thkngs happen out of turn. Clearly these statements are angle-ish trying to persuade action in a given way. another scenario would be if the guy checks, then simply shouts out "i call" or "all in." These are conditional because actuon changes if the current llayer does anything other than check, but also they bith imply that noatter what happens they have announced their play. Like clearly if aomeone out of turn aays 50 and an early not yet acted player raises to 75 the action has changed and it wasnt malicious, but heads up on the river these things i feel should be more discretion based because its such a clear manipulation.
I guess this makes sense because Scotty Nguyen once said “you call and it’s all over baby” and then he won the main event.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
He can waste a much as he wants if he's playing like that lol.
This is a dumb ruling. Lying goes on all the time and the liar is never held accountable.
Lol its a low grade move people make when they are weak. I don't think it should be ruled a call
that can NEVER be binding and if it wasn't only sheep at the table, someone would and should have stood up for that poor ruling, regardless of the player who had to pay, slowed the game or not.
Brandon you suck!
Go get your booster shot
Im sorry but if youre dumb enough to call your action like that, it should be binding.
Bad ruling.
"If x, then y" conditional statement has been uttered hundreds of times in my game, none of them ever binding
What am i missing...?
B/c of this situation poker rooms may have to announce prior to the start of the game …