I really like how Gavilar was exposed over time. In the first book you really are set on hating Szeth-son-son-Vallano, but by the time this book comes about you realize it was probably for the best that he killed Gav.
*SPOILERS* Brandon is great about this. I felt the Same about Elhokar, I pictured him as the lion king always sucking his thumb in the old Robinhood movie lol. At the end I loved him as a character and was saddened that he wasn't able to fully become the man he was trying to be.
Not only did we grow to hate Gavilar, he went from seeming like a very powerful cosmere-aware major to feeling more like a bumbling idiot who's being manipulated by the actual major players of the cosmere by the end of prologue 5.
As I understand, when big G was ranting the message for his brother, he was actually trying to talk to the Storm Father, not the assassin in white. Good thing the assassin was cool with it anyway, and wrote down the message
Yeah that did amuse me. As did the fact that the way Szeth did it made it look like Gavilar knew how to read... which ironically we just found out he did.
My thoughts (HEAVY spoilers): - Channarach is the Herald that is slain during these events, and this was Shallan killing her mother - By Word of Brandon, it's 'possible but hard' for a Herald to procreate. - So I suspect Channarach sought "the Old Magic" to cure her supernatural infertility (at least 15 years prior to this as Helaran was her firstborn) and this was the moment Cultivation set her longer-term plans into motion, leading to Dalinar and Taravangian also going to seek Cultivation.
I doubt that merely kneeling at the feet of Cultivation is all it takes for a Herald to procreate if it is 'hard'. If it was hard then I highly doubt that she did it only to turn around and try to murder one of her children when she was found to be a surgebinder. Shallan's red hair is clearly connected to race in the novels and Rock called her cousin (or something to that effect linking her hair to Horneaters) for a reason, so it seems highly unlikely that Brandon would be so utterly hokey as to link Chanarach merely from her hair color. IMHO if anyone in the main group of characters is connected to a Herald it's likely to be Kaladin through his own mother.
@@mnomadvfx Cultivation's investiture is literally called lifelight and she is all about growth and progress, something creating new life fits with very well.
This is what I think: The Stormfather was not lying to Gavilar about looking for Heralds. He is lying to Dalinar. The Stormfather's behavior when Dalinar bonded him is not consistent with someone looking to refound the Knights Radiant. He almost seemed surprised that it happened. Dalinar thought he fulfilled Gavilar's final instruction to him, but he found the wrong words. There's a different Oath, to become a Herald. Once he became a Radiant, instead, the Stormfather just went with it. Cultivation probably made him go back to the Kholins, and he has been as uncooperative as possible ever since. He didn't even talk to Dalinar when he sent the visions, and he has regularly avoided telling Dalinar things that he really ought to know. Also, the timeline does match up. Shallan indirectly caused the Desolation when she killed her mother, Chanarach.
I like your theory about the book holding a different oath towards becoming a Herald. The way Gavilar talked, it felt like they hadn't even made the first oath yet. “If I should die,” Gavilar said, quoting the Way of Kings, “then I would do so having lived my life right. It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there.” Not even close, the spren said. Since the first oath is universal and known to some, I can't believe Gavilar hadn't learned it yet. Why would he try a quote that would be sort of redundant to the first if he's trying for a higher level oath. A herald oath sounds interesting.
This is an EXTREMELY interesting theory. My biggest issue was thinking like...we haven't heard anything about replacing heralds before. So why now? That's why it seemed like a lie. But a different oath to become a herald? Interesting. Although, aren't they only heralds because of the oathpact? IDK, lots to unpack here, but I like the idea of where your theories are going... I realize the timelines match up, and I think it's a good theory, but I'm not ready to claim for certain that's what happened. And sure Shallan technically started the desolations if that's true, but how was she to know? She was young and probably didn't even know her mom was a herald. Or maybe she did. Who knows.
Well, it would be interesting, but in the same time seems to be too easy - say the words and turn into the herald. Besides, SF was not talking to Dalinar, that's true, but he showed himself and spoke to Kaladin before. I was actually thinking that maybe the 5th ideal will make herald. It was said that the bond with a spren can be broken till 4th ideal, but there's no coming back once u reach 5th. But then this whole prolog doesn't make sens if it's not just a scam.
@@magdalenaopatka9263 I think it would be like the radiants oath in that you gotta mean it, not just say the words. Like all the on screen oaths came after understanding the meaning of them. (Other than The Lopen.) And SF saying it's in the book is more taunting.
A possibility about the personality and text difference. We know the stormfather is/is hosting Tanavast's Cognative shadow. It is possible that Tanavast is a lot more aware and involved than we thought. That the difference in the text is Tanavast vs Stormfather speaking. That one of the two is done with Gavilar's family hence why we only see the all caps Stormfather with Dalinar. Id lean towards saying Gavilar was dealing more with Tanavast while Dalinar is dealing more with the Stormfather but I'm not sure.
I'm still curious if some of the stuff will come down to it not having been edited yet lol but yes Sanderson is the master at making his fans go crazy over the smallest things 😂
It is definitely the real Stormfather: re-reading the series now, and hia behavior throughout the series makes more sense based on what we learn in this Prologue.
Now this might be tinfoil theory time but I think there are two distinct characters talking to Gavilar at different points. Towards the end of the prologue it is the Stormfather we know. But earlier it is Odium _pretending_ to be the Stormfather. We know Odium can break into the visions - he did it at least twice with Dalinar (IIRC the Aharietiam vision with the fight at the clifftop, and the Nohadon's Palace one with Venli). Then there's the bit where Gavilar almost gets the Words: "“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I _need_ it.” Demands? Need? That's Odium-speak
@@Bookborn The problem with this is that the thing that made the "Stormfather" turn against Gavilar was him saying he would instantly give in on Braize. If it was Odium, he would have encouraged him to continue.
@@astardbay4544 Thats why we think there are two versions talking to Gavilar through the course of the prologue. The "sussfather" version has been encouraging Gavilar towards things he's completely naive and ignorant about. Imagine for a moment if Odium really did have a herald in his pocket who doesn't understand the purpose of the Oathpact, and immediately broke on every cycle. On the last cycle he only held Talanel, and he didn't break for X thousands of years. Imagine if Gavilar had somehow done it, ended up as a herald, and then immediately triggered the next return/cycle. Very dangerous - and exactly what Odium would have wanted at the time (remember, Tal didn't break for another few years, in the books). When the real Stormfather catches a hint of Gavilar's aims, he's like "Nope, no way, get lost G, I'm out." - but by then its too late - the sussfather has already put some things into motion.
Eh. For that to be true, the real Stormfather would have to be unaware that Odium was there and talking to Gavilar and breaking into visions. I don't buy that he wouldn't realize that.
When reading this I didn't ever feel the storm father wasn't actually the storm father. I'm more unsure on this one. There are words of Brandon that indicate that Gavilar saw the same visions as Dalinar but reacted to it differently. I know visions could be replicated, but how would another spren/being know exactly what the visions honor had left behind to have the storm father show? Gavilar kept asking the SF if he regretted choosing him, as if Gavilar could sense the SF wasn't fully satisfied with him. So some personality differences could be attributed to the fact the SF didn't like Gavilar as much. Also the SF by the time he went to Dalinar could sense the everstorm was a lot closer and so was more desperate to get someone to help stop it/prepare others for it.
Because Stormfather felt the lack of honour in Gavilar's personaility/spirit despite the fact that he managed to largely keep his own hands clean by using his brother as the blunt instrument to work his will. IMHO Stormfather was working on appearances rather than what was truly in Gavilar's heart, and we have already seen that words alone are not enough to actually convince the Stormfather you are ready to swear an ideal - you have to actually feel it, and it seems more and more that all Gavilar wanted was power, where as Dalinar was like a naturally gifted human battering ram who wanted to be more, to be worthy of what he already had rather than reaching for more.
Part of me wonders if some of the things people are noticing and reading into will be changed in editing and will be different for the final draft of SA5. Sanderson did say that this is a rough draft of the prologue, and I'm curious how different the actual release will be and if it'll have any effect if any of the theories people are throwing out 🤔 just food for thought!
I think its Tanavast cognitive shadow itself...the same whispering to dalanar"unite them"...dalanar to stormfather"did you send me that vision in the morning ..i felt warmth and light"...stormfather"No"
it’s the storm father because of gavilar he’s giving dalinar a much harder time also spren and the person they’re bonded too seem to effect their personality
But he wasn't bonded to Gavilar - it doesn't even seem Gavilar had said "Journey Before Destination". Of course, you may be talking about Dalinar changing the Stormfather, but I felt like we got a decent amount of his personality before then...
I feel like SF never bonded Gavilar because... 1) He couldn't find the right words and 2) he didn't have the right intent. Secondly, while discussing why the SF actually presented himself to Dalinar again even after saying he wouldn't, might be due to Dalinar's actions. His willingness to give up his shardblade and plate, to actually change and become more honorable.
I think that bonded spren change their personalities, depending on who they're bonding. I think pattern could have been really different if not for shallon
According to Restares' response to Gavilar, Thaidakar is looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram - unless Restares is mistaken and making assumptions. It could make sense that Kelsier is still searching for his "kite-string", since at the end of RoW we see someone else toying with bringing spren physically from the cognitive realm.
Thinking through this Chanarach being Shallans mom is more of a likelihood as I think of it. I mean her mom did show up at the house with a Skybreaker and new Shallan was manifesting signs of becoming a radiant. So her being Chanarach would help explain how she knew Shallan was becoming a radiant, but also she would have known Nale and could have easily found him... who knows maybe she was working with Nale at one point.
And why she’d be freaked out radiants were coming back too. Still some puzzle pieces I’d like to work out there but it doesn’t feel like we are on to something…
Cool video! I hadn't heard of most these theories. I'm currently thinking the Storm Father is legit for what may seem a contradictory reason: the Storm Father told Gavilar that he would not trust nor work with Dalinar or anyone else in their family. I think this is a typical storyline or trope playing into Dalinar's character arch and the series' overall themes: characters being forced to work together, unlikely heroes, redemption, change, etc. I think it sounds very Sanderson-like to force the Storm Father to work with Dalinar (despite the SF's preconceived notions) and then Dalinar would change the Storm Father's prejudices over time. If this is the case, I think it implies he can't be a fraud. However, it's speculation, JMO we will have to RAFO.
OK, the shallan theory lines up. I hadn't thought of it until now, but it makes perfect sense with what we know about shallan's mother and the heralds, especially so now. So, now I fully believe that and that it will be the next and final big shallan reveal. In which case, wow. Shallan. You really made a mess of things. So many things. I like shallan but wow.
I feel like it'll be annoying tho if people blame her. Like unless she fully KNEW her mom was a Radiant and KNEW killing her would start a desolation, what was she supposed to do as a child who's mom was literally trying to kill them??? Let her kill her?? I mean still a mess but I don't know what she was supposed to do, you know? i'll be super interested to see how Sanderson writes that (like you, I'm pretty convinced of this theory right now).
So... in WOR when they're stuck in the chasm I think I remember when the highstorm hits as there being multiple beings riding the storm. I don't remember if it says this or its emplied, but that was the sense that I got and it never made sense to me.
I’m of the opinion that the stormfaker was Ishar. He gets upset and “hisses” when gavilar tosses aside Jezriens honor blade, which makes sense if he was one of the heralds (and it seems that Jez and Ishar were kind of the de facto leaders of the heralds and were close). Stormfather however doesn’t treat the heralds with reverence. Further, it makes sense that if someone who had knowledge of the oathpact wanted to bring back the voidbringers and heralds, they would need to send another herald to Braize since Taln wasn’t breaking. So my thought is he was going to tie Gav to the oathpact knowing he would break and bring back the voidbringers. It also makes sense that he knew about Dalinar being important later, since Ishar thought he was odiums champion when they met.
Ahhh very interesting things to add to the conversation - especially the part about hissing and the blade. I need to reread the books keeping and eye on how the SF acts. See if there is ever that reverence anywhere else…
it seem to me he learnt from his errors with gavilar so his approach is totally different with dalinar. instead of the lie he just withelds info from dalinar until he feels ready to inform dalinar. its more interesting to me if its the same storm father. spren have shown that they can change and adapt based on they bind with.
My thoughts on the small caps: if you look at it time wise, from this point on, the Stormfather speaks in small caps. Before this statement, in italics. It could simply be an indication of a change in approach, or a different thought process taking over. After all, the Stormfather is broken as well.
Sanderson’s ability to make a reader slowly go from hating to loving a character and vice versa is unmatched. Also the way characters fluctuate between good and evil in such believable ways is insane! I’d be curious to see if Gavilar could end up with a redemption arc of some kind in later books. I mean, if he can make one for the Lord Ruler…
I feel like a redemption arc for Gavilar wouldn't make a ton of sense - Since after the next book we'll have a significant time jump, my guess is Gavilar's actions won't have a ton of relevance anymore. Maybe if this *is* the real stormfather, we'll understand Gavilar more in that context, but I feel like redemption will be hard/not useful to the story at this point.
The italics vs small caps thing makes me actually think it’s a fake. I don’t think that’s unintentional from Brandon by any means. On Shallan, this line feels so much more prescient now: “The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.” The biggest thing to me was Kalak saying they betrayed Ba-Ado-Mishram. That’s a huge change
Oh MAN I FORGOT ABOUT THAT LINE. Ok so like that means this theory is for sure correct RIGHT??? Sanderson did that to mess with us? Yeah I didn't know how to take the betray thing. I want to know so much more about the unmade.
@@Bookborn There is so much we barely know or understand about the False Desolation that I just want to know more about. We got a lot more color in the prologue but I feel like that might be an unanswered question in Stormlight 5
I believe it's the storm father. It's the smaller things that confirm it for me. His opinion of dalinar and that parshindi woman who name escapes me for example.
I feel like I need to go reread every single stormfather part in the last four books to make a judgement. Right now it feels off, but that could because a) this isn't edited and b) I don't remember specifics, just general feelings about the SF from other books lol
The thing is that it is a first draft, so while the info will probably stay the same, I think a lot of the voice and the sequence of events may still change. So, us thinking that this doesn't feel like the stormfather might just be an artifact of it being the first draft.
I think that the italics to small caps change represents Stormfather (or whoever that is) cancelling the (proto)bond that he has with Gavilar (to avoid damage to himself because of Gavilar's soon death). This is based on Stormfather talking to italics to Dalinar and small caps to everyone else (or atleast that's what I remember from the books).
Yeah I need to go look into this. I feel like he talked small caps to Dalinar too, but maybe you're right and that was only before bonding. But in the book it seems that Gavilar hadn't even said the first words yet... so IDK IM CONFUSED
I can't stop imagining Kelsier appearance as Force Ghosts from star wars and it's really amusing me XD Also, i get that people say that Gavilar is the worst, but I like him A LOT. Like, I wanna see more of him. Sue me, I love baddies
as for Stormfather stuff, remember that this is the first draft, so possibly Brandon will change some formatting things and perhaps edit the character voice as well in the revisions
We knew Gavilar's prologue would be spicy! I was surprised that he didn't actually know as much as we thought he would. His own arrogance and being told by "Stormfather" what he wanted to hear led him to be so close but so off at the same time. The heralds were right there but he wouldn't consider that they were heralds. I go back and forth on whether it was the SF. My initial thought was that he is an imposter but how would he know so much about the visions and everything and I didn't remember him appearing as a shimmer or the outline of a man but apparently he has, but not as readily and constant as he was here. Also Gavilar was almost quoting death rattles, so could it be an unmade/voidspren giving him that info. An unmade/voidspren could be aware of a herald suddenly showing up on Braize. I am leaning toward it being an imposter but am not entirely convinced that it is. Maybe the SF changed after his interaction with Gavilar and was distrustful of bonding anyone (especially a Kholin) so has been more grumpy and less willing to give info to Dalinar. He just seems so different. It is also interesting that at the end, from Gavilar's perspective, he was talking to SF but it was Szeth there that we see and thought he was talking to him intentionally before. And I am thinking the theory about Shallan's mom being a herald that she killed is true. We know there is more to Shallan's past but I kept thinking she was so young, what else could she have done?? So she did restart the Desolations but it was all out of self defense and not something she should be blamed for, but she still did it so it will be interesting to see if she knew anything about who her mother really is and may meet her returned/resurrected mother in the future!
lol you literally sound like my brain. I go back and forth constantly on whether it's really the SF or not. There's compelling arguments either way and I think we just sadly have to wait. I still think I'm leaning slightly towards him NOT being the SF though...
The storm father thing definitely broke my brain xD.. I keep going back and forth on if it's really the storm father or not.. and the release of the book is so far awaaayyyyy :(
Hi there BookBorn. How are you doing? Unfortunately, I won't be able to stay. Next year, after I get done with reading the kindle versions while listening to the audio book versions of the Malazan series by Steven Erikson, I am going to dive into all of Brandon Sanderson's books. I am currently reading while listening to Gardens of the Moon for the third time. I will be working on 1 chapter per day. I hope to start working on Deadhouse Gates in May. I have also started listening to Soul of the Sword by Julie Kagawa and the Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. Have a good one.
My question is how the conversation between Gav and SF even turned to becoming a herald instead of being a bondsmith as the visions intended. SF was more open with Gav than he ever was with Dalinar which is the weird thing and probably the best evidence for fake SF
Yes see this is what I keep getting caught up on too! Why were they talking about replacing a herald when we've literally never heard anything about that before?
In regards to the stormfather. Without a bond a spren looses connection with themselves by being in the physical realm. This causes gaps in memory and possibly changes in personality. Syl has even said without him she goes stupid. Perhaps in order to stay in the physical realm the stormfather is connected to the storm and when he left Gavilar his connect to the storm grew larger to compensate for the loss.
@@Bookborn he still must have at least sworn to the first ideal. That is enough to bond a spren. The words he was looking for had to have been the second ideal.
I like to think it could be Odium speaking to Gavilar. It was kinda off how the Stormfather teases Gavilar, “ha that was almost the words! So close yet so far!” But then again, everyone is different from pre-assassination to the present and there’s no reason not to believe the Stormfather could be the same. I’m more interested in Kelsier. I wish I’d just stumble on that knowledge in the book than seeing it online but meh. This is as good as an epic teaser for Mistborn Era 3. What interests me more is the mention of Ba-ado-mishram being able to produce Voidlight. I’m curious if Kelsier intends to use this much power to destroy an entire planet or kill one very powerful being. The mention of the possible destruction of Roshar leaves me concerned that Book 5 is gonna end with this depressing scene with Roshar destroyed.
I think it's been theorized that Roshar being destroyed is a very likely possibility for book five. I forget how the statemetn actually goes, but someone pointed out like "well we killed people, then spren, then a literal shard...next is a planet". I'm sorry you learned about Kelsier before hand. I was lucky to read Era 3 as they came out so it was a huge surprise.
Definitely NOT the stormfather. He's a creation of Honor and has at least some vestige of his remaining power. We know for sure that a shard's intent is binding, so anything with Honor's power has to act with honor. So I would say that it is not the stormfather that is lying to Gavilar. Not to mention "I NEED the power" is very Odium.
Also iirc the stormfather appears as just a ripple in the air, but this time it was man shaped. And those descriptions might be just in the visions, the one time I remember it being described was in a vision.
Yeah see that's why I'm only like 60/40 it's the real one. Because lying seems SO OUT OF PLACE with a shard of honor. Of course, I guess there are cryptics so...
I know this is kinda late but I do think that maybe lying could make sense is SF thought it was honorable. I mean I think Kaladin can lie and fight and kill if he thinks it’s for an honorable purpose, like protecting others. If the SF thinks lying would be the honorable action then I don’t think it would be a problem
I think that stormfather was ishar because when the herald die it seem to pain him indicating he is actually a herald as well..and i would think stormfather would be more spren like because he is not bonded to him..
I think the real Stormfather is present in the chapter, but I think there is a sequence where its a fake version (the "sussfather") getting into Gavilar's day and demonstrating to the reader that he's been influenced and being taken down the wrong path. Pay attention specifically to what is said when the sussfather appears to Gavilar indoors. What is said is not in keeping with the stormfather's intent - at all. In fact, its directly aimed at accelerating Odium's plan.
Ok see that's what I'm saying. But people keep bringing up good points on the other side too. I'm still so divided, while leaning still towards "Sussfather" (Great name btw lol). I am interested to explore the theory more that there are two people in the scene...🤔
I didn’t question that it was the true Stormfather until I watched this video (my Stormlight theorizing is basically nonexistent), but I think I still think it is the real one, because he feels the death of the Herald and reacts to it immediately. I don’t remember if he reacted to the deaths of the other Heralds in the other books or not though, so I could be way off base. -T
No that's def a reason people think that it's the real one, but if it ended up being Ishar pretending to be the SF, he would feel the death too. Although, I'll be honest, I'm not sure the Ishar theory is convincing for me.
@@Bookborn in the prelude to WoK, Kalak doesn’t know which Heralds died until he meets Jezrien at the place where they leave the honorblades. The only time we’ve seen Heralds react to another’s death is when Moash trapped Jezrien’s soul in the dagger, so I don’t think the Heralds can actually feel when one of them dies unless it’s a permadeath. The Stormfather probably could bc he’s a splinter of Honor, and Honor made the Oathpact. Odium probably could too, or maybe it’s more that he can feel when a Herald returns to Braize. I’m leaning toward this Stormfather being the real one. Also, another comment mentioned that the Stormfather implies he hasn’t been bonded in a long time, but that tracks too bc the Stormfather specifically says he hasn’t bonded Gavilar.
About the Stormfather, I've seen some comments saying that this is a first draft and Peter and Karen haven't revised it yet so it make sense that there are some inconsistencies. BUT I buy a lot the theory that this isn't the Stormfather since it seems cool and it's weird that the Stormfather would help Gavilar, of all people. I don't think Ishar is that solid of a theory but an unmade seems pretty plausible. Maybe it's Chemoarish, an unmade that was often mistaken for the Night watcher the one who disguised as Stormfather. Or maybe it was Re-Sephir, the one that can imitate different forms. It also seems right that Odium (Rayse) wanted Gavilar to take the place of a herald since it doesn't seem like Gavilar would need a lot of time to break. Also one theory I'm contemplating (even though it's a stretch) is that Gavilar pronounced the words before passing to the Beyond and he became a herald. Then he went to Braize (because Szeth killed him) and broke seven years later when Taln arrived. Though to be honest this is just copium because.... I don't like the theory that Chana is Shallan's mom and I hate that now it is pretty much confirmed. Don't get me wrong, it does make a lot of sense: Shallan's family is weird and Taln absolutely did not break, but I just don't like it that Shallan may be special because she is the daughter of someone important rather than being important for who she is. Plus, some people argue that Shallan's final truth would be admitting that she caused the Desolation which doesn't makes sense since she was a child and didn't necessarily know that killing her mom would cause that. I know that if it ends up being true (and I'm 90% sure it will) Sanderson will execute it masterfully but I don't like the idea, just my opinion of course. In other things, what are the words that the "Stormfather" was referring to? He said that he and Gavilar weren't in a bond, and I don't think we knew about words that make you a herald after speaking them. What was Gavilar looking and how does it work?? Anyway cool video!!!! There are so many secrets in this single chapter. The waiting for Stormlight 5 will be hard but oh well Journey before Destination I guess
Yeah I'm totally with you on Shallan's mom, actually. I like the idea of her mom being a herald and all that stuff, and I don't think that makes Shallan's story different, personally, BUT I really do NOT want "Shallan caused the desolations!!" to be a thing. Like...how would she know? her mom was trying to kill her, a child that clearly already had a lot of trauma (considering she was already at an ideal where she had a shardblade), and she kills her mom in self-defense. She didn't know her mom was a herald, like, this isn't her fault. I thought the words were the first ideal. I don't think Gavilar could get there because he wasn't really meant to be Radiant. That's just my theory tho
With regards to Shallan's final truth, you are of course right that she can be blamed for none of what happened. But i think having her accidentally start a desolation also gives a good opportunity for her arc. It can make her a much more interesting character, and it would make her character development a lot stronger, once she manages to accept that she had no choice but to do what she did. To me, if the theory ends up being true, her final truth has to be something along the lines of "i did cause the desolation, but i accept it wasnt my fault" What i fear could happen(and wouldnt like) is for her to find out about her mother and then go completely crazy and become odium's champion D:
I feel like Gavalar would have to know if he did (although I guess Min didn't know!) I feel Brandon would've given us a hint though about jewelry or something... so doesn't seem likely but would be freaking cool
Yeah I'm sort of confused about that part, tbh, because that seems for sure a lie. If he said the words, he'd be a a radiant, not a herald right? I don't think we've ever seen the idea that people could *replace* heralds, right?
Uggg the two sentences of small caps... We talked about this for a long time. Summary of possibilities for what we came up with: 1. Formatting in a draft and we're wasting too much time on this 2. The Stormfather is talking differently here because... Reasons 3. 2 separate voices talking 4. Some other mechanic we're not following The stormfather talks in italics when taking to Dalinar as his bonded spren, but in small caps when he talks to others (Dalinar pre bonding, kaladin, eshoni ect)
If it’s number one I revolt at midnight. But yeah it’s weird because he’s clearly not bonded to Gavilar yet so idk what to think. Glad I’m not the only one obsessing over this mystery
@@BookbornI could go a number of ways on this but, my current theory is: Gavilar gets chosen to receive the visions from the storm father. Ishar highjacks that with Connection. (Possibly like a man in the middle attack). The vision is real, but anything spoken in Italics is from Ishar. The small caps is actually from the Stormfather, slipping through because ishar is distracted due to the other herald dying.
In terms of the stormfather my other thought was at the very end the fact that he cared to keep talking to Gavilar until the end just leads me to think this isn't Odium especially combined with giving the sphere of antilight. Odium likely would've wanted to collect that and get rid of it if he'd known about it. But that ending just seems like it would be the Stormfather because I don't think Ishar, Odium, or any of the others pretending would care about Gavilar at all once he was clearly dying and no longer of use to them. But yeah I'm right with you on like 50/50 it's him lol. But definitely think the Shallan's mom being the Herald theory is true after this! For Ba Ado Mishram we did know she could create Voidlight, she was also able to provide the Singers with forms of power to fuel the False Desolation.
Oh that's a really good point in the direction of the real SF - if it was a fake person, why would they clearly care about Gavilar in the end? Hmmm ugh I'm just still conflicted
@@Bookborn Yeah it's tricky! It'll also be interesting to see after the book is released how much he's changed things given feedback. This does kind of give him a pretty massive beta read so if he wanted a different reaction he might tweak things. It'll be interesting too to see how this gets resolved in the book because I doubt we will get to the end of book 5 and have that still be a mystery.
I listened to BS reading, didn’t read. I didn’t think it was SF for the majority of this prologue. In previous novels, it feels like the SF had either never been bonded before, or at least had been aeons; it’s hard to believe that he allowed Gavilar to bond with him (if, indeed, he’s bonded instead of pre-bonding associating). If bonded….the damage done to spren when their bonded human dies…even the SF should be deeply effected. I started strongly feeling that it was actually Odium, who is desperate to leave his prison of being locked into the Roshar system. Terevangian’s presence at the end reinforced this feeling for me. But…the voice was as wrong for Odium as it was for SF. All that considered…by the end I DO lean toward it actually being the SF, may 65/35. Definitely major RAFO here. One other item. I felt that Gavilar’s use of ‘boardroom’ was very anachronistic.
Yeah I don’t think they were bonded since it doesn’t seem like he’d said “journey before destination” yet, which again makes it almost more confusing. I’m with you on 65/35. I think the evidence is convincing that it’s him but something still feels “off”. I wonder if boardroom will be taken out of the final version, although Sanderson is often anachronistic.
When Gavilar tells him to watch the door, the Stormfather says "we have no bond" and "you are my tool" but begrudgingly does it. Which actually feels like our current grumpy cloud boi.
Stormfather would not have allowed Gavilar to retain a Dead Blade, even if he could take the constant screaming. Therefore they were definitely not bonded when he died.
@@Bookborn I can`t find where the stormfather says it, maybe he didn`t and i am misremembering, I did find this though: WoR CAP I-14 TARAVANGIAN "That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm"
Ahh interesting. See, this implies that we still don't know who the visions are from. Not denying that the SF might have said that...the books are long, I just don't remember 😆 I'm going to keep an eye out for it on rereads though
I think the stormfather was upfront with gavilar. He wants a new herald. He was eager at that time, but since then was loosing faith. Its not until dalinar forces his way into being his bond that he starts to turn around. i think in the end a new herald is his goal. i think he has some sort of prescience like the shards have and is going to replace jezzrian with dalinar to try to reseal the oathpact.
But do we know anything about replacing Heralds? That seems so random to me for some reason. I always felt like we were like...the heralds aren't working, ya know? Like being tortured for thousands of years just isn't it, and aren't we considering this the final desolation? IDK, I have so many questions haha
@@Bookborn I think either the stormfather thinks they just need to be replaced or it may have to do with the duel of champions. The stormfather may want dalinar to be immortal for teh duel when it arrives so he can't lose and is making sure that Dalinar stays humble.
I think it would more likely be a new oathpact, negating all the other heralds then swapping one out. Dalanar is already in a binding contract now with Odium so maybe too late? If he's been proven to lie now, whats to say replacing a herald was a lie too? He's already manipulating Gavilar, its possible SF's intentions he told G is a lie. Honestly, what would a new Herald do other than start a new desolation?
@@Bookborn I actually found more to support this. In the brief moment of lucidity that ishar has when they confront them he tells them a few things. 1. he is not sane 2.He can recreate the oathpact 3. something something champion that we can't make out 4. He can be made lucid in that moment in which someone makes a pact and links the spiritual realm. In this fight he shows something very similar to atium shadows. I think while honor is shit at telling the future he can do a bit and is trying to get ishar and 1 new oathpact member to take the place of jezz to reseal the oathpact. But this must be done in the very moment of the duel and someone must ascend to knights radiant during the duel of champions.
I have to say I just don't see any reason to suspect it might not be the Stormfather. Too much of if is exactly how he acts and his goals. Why would Ishar or Odium pretend to have that moment of thinking "he doesn't get it" when Gavilar talks about how if he's made a Herald he'll simply come back? What purpose could they have which would be served by making Gavilar think they disapproved?
@@Bookborn right, I get that he's lying for whatever reason. But that's a separate issue. It would still bother the Stormfather to hear someone say they'd become a Herald and just immediately give in each time they die. Why would that bother Ishar? Or Odium? Or anyone else? Why would they act to Gavilar like that would bother the Stormfather? If they were trying to fool him, it clearly wasn't what he was expecting. From his perspective, we see he's confused why the Stormfather would think that. Admittedly not to the point of him thinking "maybe you're not the stormfather" but if you're trying to trick someone, you don't do it by acting like the person you're pretending to be really is. You do it by behaving how the person you're trying to trick expects them to be. I think you're getting hung up in the lie, like you think the Stormfather literally was trying to make Gavilar a Herald. He wasn't. He just lied. I see nothing here but the Stormfather acting exactly like I think he would. Why would Odium, or Ishar, or whomever else, stick around and keep acting as Gavilar was dying? Why would he say, I will do nothing to help save your life as your doom comes?
Now I'll be honest I've only listened to Brandon reading it once, and I was doing something else at the time so I can't say I gave it my full attention but nothing in what I did hear made me think it was anything but the Stormfather. It seemed logical to me how he would go from that persona to the one we see later (or earlier if you are talking book order). He had been tricked by Gavilar and then decided he wasn't going to oppose what was coming, and definitely not help the Kholins, so to end up bonded to Dalinar to directly oppose what was coming would make him pretty upset and less than helpful. Plus it's not like he was actually bonded to Gavilar, so not being completely honest with him isn't that big of a thing for me. Now, if they HAD been bonded then outright lying would have made me doubt it was the real Stormfather, but they weren't so I'm still very much in the "it is him" camp. Maybe when I get around to reading the written version I'll change my mind though.
Yeah, idk I'm still torn. Like why would he be giving Dalinar the visions at all then if he wanted nothing to do with him? Couldn't he just...find someone else?
@@Bookborn I don't think he could, he was still working to the intent of the order he was given by Honor, before his death, whether he liked it or not.
No 😅 I have a lot of problems with Goodreads, although I'll probably break and get one eventually. My instagram is up to date with what I'm reading although I realize it's not searchable (and doesn't go back before 2020).
I don't quite think so. Everything in books 1-4 state that the Everstorm has been building in Shadesmar 'for a while' and I don't think that 7 years is enough time. I'll have to look into dates a bit more.
@@NemisCassander yes it had been building for centuries, but they still needed stormform to pull it into the physical realm. Either way a desolation was coming relatively soon by way of the newly dead herald breaking or the everstorm. Gavilar transported the voidspren from Braize most likely unknowingly and I think Shallan killed the herald
I thought that I read that the Storm father was a shadow of the almighty at one point. He was a shadow of a God and spren, but I it has been a year since I read the series. Interesting though, I'll keep an open mind. It will be neat to see what direction it goes. The character Wit seems to know a lot about whats going on!
So.. what if Brandon’s trying to throw us off? Kinda like how in MCU trailers they add scenes that never make it into the film? Obviously this is the first draft and so things are goin to change anyways, but maybe Brandon already knows some things he wants to keep SECRET for the next 2 years and just giving us a piece right now without spoiling too much? The change in font being a visual note for him that that part is intentionally misleading? I believe it is the SF. Even though it hasn’t been mentioned that a herald can be replaced before doesn’t mean they can’t be. I think it could add even more depth to the stories if all that’s true, as well as give direction and something new. Some people are now on their 4th of 5 ideals, so something has to evolve or else we would have 6 books of them all maxing at the 5th, so this might be a good segway. I also think the SF might have a bit different agenda than what we think, sort of like Hoid, Kelsier, and others. SF is probably reluctant to work with Dalinar cause he doesn’t want to, doesn’t trust humans (especially the Kholins), or feels like it’s his only option to get what HE wants even though it’s not ideal and potentially causing him to compromise on his goals. Honor (like Preservation) could be taken too far to an extreme. But even if it can’t be, the SF is only a Sliver of Honor, which doesn’t necessarily mean that he aligns with everything Honor is. Sure he can speak that he does, but so do the Honor Spren whose actions are justified by what they think Honor is at that moment and not necessarily that what is honorable. We have seen other Spren lie as well, so why not the SF?
If the SF has a secret agenda, i feel like it has to already be off course. Was just thinking of the part in book 2 where he sends a storm to destroy everyone. Barring future knowledge, I can't see him knowing shallan would get the gate open and save everyone in time.
The thing tho is like being a Herald isn't an ideal, right? it's agreeing/entering the oathpact? So that's where I get slightly confused. But yeah, it's very possible that the SF has just changed his tactic and that's why this is such a surprise. But also, yeah, I dont' think any of us trust Brandon anymore so maybe he's just messing with us 😂
Maybe the Stormfather visited the Nightwatcher after Gavilar died and his boon and bane were somewhat like Taravangian's where on some days he's bad ass af and other days he's a little cry baby. At least that is my head cannon.
@@Bookborn I do have mixed feelings with the Stormfather though, his tone definitely changed from WoK to WoR, which to me was a a huge let down felt he was nerfed so I dont find it completely off if he was like that at Gavilar's times. I bet this (about stormfather) has been talked about before but I am pretty new to Brando, I have been binge listening to his work, just recently caught up to SLA and gave myself a break before starting WhiteSands and then either warbreaker or MBe2, there is just too much.
I don't like the "Shallans mom is a Herald"-theory. Because it's stated very clearly that the Desolation starts, not because a Herald breaks, but because Odium has found a way to circumvent the Oathpact with the Everstorm. In Oathbringer, there is a scene where Yasnah suggests killing the Heralds so they can lock the voidbringers in Damnation again, but someone (I forget who) says it won't work because of the Everstorm.
I think I am team "real Stormfather" but just barely. I think there's just so much about the Stormfather we don't know that I can easily see him changing his tactics with Dalinar. Plus it's a first draft so the minor characterization differences could be explained that way. But yeah, the visions are far from proof that it's him.
I think I'm in the same boat. Probably real Stormfather right now but it's like... 60/40 lol. Someone claimed the Stormfather said that he gave teh visions to Gavilar first, but I'm still waiting on a source on that because I don't remember that
Ok, the lying, manipulative, taunting SF does not mesh with the one I know. I think it's him, but that doesn't seem very Honor-like. Did SF have a major character shift like Dalanar and this is comparable to book 3 flashback insight, or is this the True Stormfather that we have yet to see. With Gavilar having a supposed longer time to bond with the SF than Dalanar and bonds helping evolve the sprens minds, maybe this is what the SF will be like later?
YES these are seriously my EXACT questions. It's so different from what we know, which is why I just can't be completely convinced it's him. But if it is, we have some surprising things coming in book 5 I think. Either, like you said, he just had a growth arc or we will see some major betrayal/major adjustments to his motives.
@@Bookborn I think there might be a clue in the description of the SF after he senses a herald die. The description of those storm eye holes and how intense he gets is disturbing. Other than the SF and other Heralds, who else could sense the death of a herald?
I think it’s really the Stormfather. He just intentionally changed his approach with Dalinar. I prefer the story that the Everstorm and associated happenings allow the Fused back to Roshar rather than the Shallan’s mom Herald breaking thing… I’d prefer if Shallan’s specialness is not genetic in any way. I don’t think Gavilar is the worst, he’s narcissistic and overreaching but have we forgotten about Sadeas??? He’s the worst.
lol I'm using "the worst" as just like...we don't like him. I think, in general, if you yelled "who is the worst person in Roshar right now" 75% of the fandom would shout back "Moash" so... (although I don't agree LOL) I think Shallan's mom being a Herald wouldn't necessarily make me feel like that's what made Shallan special. Her brothers would have the same amount of "herald" in them, and besides, Herald isn't a genetic trait, but rather something that was bestowed on them anyway.
Fair point. I’m coming around on the idea after thinking it over. The only character I couldn’t stand was Sadeas. Moash, Taravangian, Gavilar all tolerable for me.
But like...so dark that Dalinar has carried this weight of being drunk on the night his bro died and then like...his brother was the one who encouraged it....
@@Bookborn Oh my god it was so screwed up. Honestly the way he thought about Dalinar and treated him was terrible, Gavilar was an awful brother who didn't deserve the love he got.
I really like how Gavilar was exposed over time. In the first book you really are set on hating Szeth-son-son-Vallano, but by the time this book comes about you realize it was probably for the best that he killed Gav.
I know like somehow with EACH telling he gets worse and worse. It's a great window into the story. Especially how you think he's SO GREAT in WoK 😂
*SPOILERS* Brandon is great about this. I felt the Same about Elhokar, I pictured him as the lion king always sucking his thumb in the old Robinhood movie lol. At the end I loved him as a character and was saddened that he wasn't able to fully become the man he was trying to be.
Not only did we grow to hate Gavilar, he went from seeming like a very powerful cosmere-aware major to feeling more like a bumbling idiot who's being manipulated by the actual major players of the cosmere by the end of prologue 5.
@@P1kes81793 Elhokar's first step to respect was, for me, the duel scene where he calms Dalinar down
As I understand, when big G was ranting the message for his brother, he was actually trying to talk to the Storm Father, not the assassin in white. Good thing the assassin was cool with it anyway, and wrote down the message
Oh interesting thought! I need to go reread that section…
Yeah, because after he says it SF says he'll never trust another Kholin
Yeah that did amuse me.
As did the fact that the way Szeth did it made it look like Gavilar knew how to read... which ironically we just found out he did.
I thought the same thing, made me laugh that Szeth was like ya sure for something that wasn’t even said to him
My thoughts (HEAVY spoilers):
- Channarach is the Herald that is slain during these events, and this was Shallan killing her mother
- By Word of Brandon, it's 'possible but hard' for a Herald to procreate.
- So I suspect Channarach sought "the Old Magic" to cure her supernatural infertility (at least 15 years prior to this as Helaran was her firstborn) and this was the moment Cultivation set her longer-term plans into motion, leading to Dalinar and Taravangian also going to seek Cultivation.
I doubt that merely kneeling at the feet of Cultivation is all it takes for a Herald to procreate if it is 'hard'.
If it was hard then I highly doubt that she did it only to turn around and try to murder one of her children when she was found to be a surgebinder.
Shallan's red hair is clearly connected to race in the novels and Rock called her cousin (or something to that effect linking her hair to Horneaters) for a reason, so it seems highly unlikely that Brandon would be so utterly hokey as to link Chanarach merely from her hair color.
IMHO if anyone in the main group of characters is connected to a Herald it's likely to be Kaladin through his own mother.
@@mnomadvfx Cultivation's investiture is literally called lifelight and she is all about growth and progress, something creating new life fits with very well.
Oh, interesting theories! If she went to cultivation though, I wonder what the other side of her deal was...
This is what I think:
The Stormfather was not lying to Gavilar about looking for Heralds. He is lying to Dalinar. The Stormfather's behavior when Dalinar bonded him is not consistent with someone looking to refound the Knights Radiant. He almost seemed surprised that it happened.
Dalinar thought he fulfilled Gavilar's final instruction to him, but he found the wrong words. There's a different Oath, to become a Herald. Once he became a Radiant, instead, the Stormfather just went with it.
Cultivation probably made him go back to the Kholins, and he has been as uncooperative as possible ever since. He didn't even talk to Dalinar when he sent the visions, and he has regularly avoided telling Dalinar things that he really ought to know.
Also, the timeline does match up. Shallan indirectly caused the Desolation when she killed her mother, Chanarach.
I like your theory about the book holding a different oath towards becoming a Herald.
The way Gavilar talked, it felt like they hadn't even made the first oath yet.
“If I should die,” Gavilar said, quoting the Way of Kings, “then I would do so having lived my life right. It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there.”
Not even close, the spren said.
Since the first oath is universal and known to some, I can't believe Gavilar hadn't learned it yet. Why would he try a quote that would be sort of redundant to the first if he's trying for a higher level oath. A herald oath sounds interesting.
Also, Nale is both a herald and a knight's radiant so I don't think that would stop Dalanar.
This is an EXTREMELY interesting theory. My biggest issue was thinking like...we haven't heard anything about replacing heralds before. So why now? That's why it seemed like a lie. But a different oath to become a herald? Interesting. Although, aren't they only heralds because of the oathpact? IDK, lots to unpack here, but I like the idea of where your theories are going...
I realize the timelines match up, and I think it's a good theory, but I'm not ready to claim for certain that's what happened. And sure Shallan technically started the desolations if that's true, but how was she to know? She was young and probably didn't even know her mom was a herald. Or maybe she did. Who knows.
Well, it would be interesting, but in the same time seems to be too easy - say the words and turn into the herald.
Besides, SF was not talking to Dalinar, that's true, but he showed himself and spoke to Kaladin before.
I was actually thinking that maybe the 5th ideal will make herald. It was said that the bond with a spren can be broken till 4th ideal, but there's no coming back once u reach 5th. But then this whole prolog doesn't make sens if it's not just a scam.
@@magdalenaopatka9263 I think it would be like the radiants oath in that you gotta mean it, not just say the words. Like all the on screen oaths came after understanding the meaning of them. (Other than The Lopen.)
And SF saying it's in the book is more taunting.
A possibility about the personality and text difference. We know the stormfather is/is hosting Tanavast's Cognative shadow. It is possible that Tanavast is a lot more aware and involved than we thought. That the difference in the text is Tanavast vs Stormfather speaking. That one of the two is done with Gavilar's family hence why we only see the all caps Stormfather with Dalinar. Id lean towards saying Gavilar was dealing more with Tanavast while Dalinar is dealing more with the Stormfather but I'm not sure.
It could also be as simple as it's a rough first draft and sanderson didn't worry too much about fonts and caps in this draft.
Honestly the fact that you can make arguments for both sides of SUSfaster vs Stormfather shows how great of a writer Sanderson is
I'm still curious if some of the stuff will come down to it not having been edited yet lol but yes Sanderson is the master at making his fans go crazy over the smallest things 😂
It is definitely the real Stormfather: re-reading the series now, and hia behavior throughout the series makes more sense based on what we learn in this Prologue.
Now this might be tinfoil theory time but I think there are two distinct characters talking to Gavilar at different points. Towards the end of the prologue it is the Stormfather we know. But earlier it is Odium _pretending_ to be the Stormfather. We know Odium can break into the visions - he did it at least twice with Dalinar (IIRC the Aharietiam vision with the fight at the clifftop, and the Nohadon's Palace one with Venli). Then there's the bit where Gavilar almost gets the Words: "“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I _need_ it.”
Demands? Need? That's Odium-speak
I really like this tinhat theory tbh. The idea that there are two different people is interesting...
@@Bookborn The problem with this is that the thing that made the "Stormfather" turn against Gavilar was him saying he would instantly give in on Braize. If it was Odium, he would have encouraged him to continue.
@@astardbay4544 Thats why we think there are two versions talking to Gavilar through the course of the prologue. The "sussfather" version has been encouraging Gavilar towards things he's completely naive and ignorant about. Imagine for a moment if Odium really did have a herald in his pocket who doesn't understand the purpose of the Oathpact, and immediately broke on every cycle. On the last cycle he only held Talanel, and he didn't break for X thousands of years. Imagine if Gavilar had somehow done it, ended up as a herald, and then immediately triggered the next return/cycle. Very dangerous - and exactly what Odium would have wanted at the time (remember, Tal didn't break for another few years, in the books).
When the real Stormfather catches a hint of Gavilar's aims, he's like "Nope, no way, get lost G, I'm out." - but by then its too late - the sussfather has already put some things into motion.
Odium only broke into the visions AFTER the Everstorm.
Chances are that his direct influence on Roshar was somewhat limited prior to that change.
Eh. For that to be true, the real Stormfather would have to be unaware that Odium was there and talking to Gavilar and breaking into visions. I don't buy that he wouldn't realize that.
When reading this I didn't ever feel the storm father wasn't actually the storm father. I'm more unsure on this one. There are words of Brandon that indicate that Gavilar saw the same visions as Dalinar but reacted to it differently. I know visions could be replicated, but how would another spren/being know exactly what the visions honor had left behind to have the storm father show? Gavilar kept asking the SF if he regretted choosing him, as if Gavilar could sense the SF wasn't fully satisfied with him. So some personality differences could be attributed to the fact the SF didn't like Gavilar as much. Also the SF by the time he went to Dalinar could sense the everstorm was a lot closer and so was more desperate to get someone to help stop it/prepare others for it.
Yeah these are my thoughts, seriously. Like something seems really off about the SF but like you said, it could technically be explained away…
There’s also a WoB saying that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path longer than dalinar. From 2016 so take that with a grain of salt
Because Stormfather felt the lack of honour in Gavilar's personaility/spirit despite the fact that he managed to largely keep his own hands clean by using his brother as the blunt instrument to work his will.
IMHO Stormfather was working on appearances rather than what was truly in Gavilar's heart, and we have already seen that words alone are not enough to actually convince the Stormfather you are ready to swear an ideal - you have to actually feel it, and it seems more and more that all Gavilar wanted was power, where as Dalinar was like a naturally gifted human battering ram who wanted to be more, to be worthy of what he already had rather than reaching for more.
Part of me wonders if some of the things people are noticing and reading into will be changed in editing and will be different for the final draft of SA5. Sanderson did say that this is a rough draft of the prologue, and I'm curious how different the actual release will be and if it'll have any effect if any of the theories people are throwing out 🤔 just food for thought!
Ok I def have thought of that lol like look at us clowns reading into essentially editing errors 😂
I had this thought as well. Brandon is known for having a lot of beta readers for his books, now he has Thousands of beta readers for this prologue!
I think its Tanavast cognitive shadow itself...the same whispering to dalanar"unite them"...dalanar to stormfather"did you send me that vision in the morning ..i felt warmth and light"...stormfather"No"
SEON IN A TRENCHCOAT IS REAL WOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I love that theory about Shallan's mom! Not something I ever gave any thought about! You just blew my mind!
Trust me MY MIND WAS BLOWN TOO when I first heard it!
it’s the storm father because of gavilar he’s giving dalinar a much harder time
also spren and the person they’re bonded too seem to effect their personality
But he wasn't bonded to Gavilar - it doesn't even seem Gavilar had said "Journey Before Destination". Of course, you may be talking about Dalinar changing the Stormfather, but I felt like we got a decent amount of his personality before then...
@@Bookborn syl was bonded to kaladin way before he said that the oaths solidify the bond they don’t start it
I feel like SF never bonded Gavilar because... 1) He couldn't find the right words and 2) he didn't have the right intent. Secondly, while discussing why the SF actually presented himself to Dalinar again even after saying he wouldn't, might be due to Dalinar's actions. His willingness to give up his shardblade and plate, to actually change and become more honorable.
@@mrd_01 he started the process of bonding gavilar just wasn’t the right person to become a bond smith
I think that bonded spren change their personalities, depending on who they're bonding. I think pattern could have been really different if not for shallon
So excited for this book! Great theories! I’ve been thinking of doing one on all the prologues together!
Oh that would be a GREAT idea for a video
@@Bookborn I bet we could piece together some cool stuff if we tried!
According to Restares' response to Gavilar, Thaidakar is looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram - unless Restares is mistaken and making assumptions.
It could make sense that Kelsier is still searching for his "kite-string", since at the end of RoW we see someone else toying with bringing spren physically from the cognitive realm.
Thinking through this Chanarach being Shallans mom is more of a likelihood as I think of it. I mean her mom did show up at the house with a Skybreaker and new Shallan was manifesting signs of becoming a radiant. So her being Chanarach would help explain how she knew Shallan was becoming a radiant, but also she would have known Nale and could have easily found him... who knows maybe she was working with Nale at one point.
And why she’d be freaked out radiants were coming back too. Still some puzzle pieces I’d like to work out there but it doesn’t feel like we are on to something…
I loved how the end dovetailed so nice into the rest of Stormlight. And I need more Lord of scars.
I ALWAYS need more Lord of Scars
Hi 👋 thank you for the video!! 🎬🎥 happy reading to you!! 😊
Cool video! I hadn't heard of most these theories. I'm currently thinking the Storm Father is legit for what may seem a contradictory reason: the Storm Father told Gavilar that he would not trust nor work with Dalinar or anyone else in their family. I think this is a typical storyline or trope playing into Dalinar's character arch and the series' overall themes: characters being forced to work together, unlikely heroes, redemption, change, etc. I think it sounds very Sanderson-like to force the Storm Father to work with Dalinar (despite the SF's preconceived notions) and then Dalinar would change the Storm Father's prejudices over time. If this is the case, I think it implies he can't be a fraud. However, it's speculation, JMO we will have to RAFO.
That's not a bad theory, tbh, and it's similar to the theory that we've been seeing more spren-story-arcs, and this would fit very neatly into that.
OK, the shallan theory lines up. I hadn't thought of it until now, but it makes perfect sense with what we know about shallan's mother and the heralds, especially so now. So, now I fully believe that and that it will be the next and final big shallan reveal. In which case, wow. Shallan. You really made a mess of things. So many things. I like shallan but wow.
I feel like it'll be annoying tho if people blame her. Like unless she fully KNEW her mom was a Radiant and KNEW killing her would start a desolation, what was she supposed to do as a child who's mom was literally trying to kill them??? Let her kill her?? I mean still a mess but I don't know what she was supposed to do, you know? i'll be super interested to see how Sanderson writes that (like you, I'm pretty convinced of this theory right now).
@@Bookborn oh, I don't think people in book would blame her, I mean many of us don't blame her for really any of her murders so far. But still.
So... in WOR when they're stuck in the chasm I think I remember when the highstorm hits as there being multiple beings riding the storm. I don't remember if it says this or its emplied, but that was the sense that I got and it never made sense to me.
I’m of the opinion that the stormfaker was Ishar. He gets upset and “hisses” when gavilar tosses aside Jezriens honor blade, which makes sense if he was one of the heralds (and it seems that Jez and Ishar were kind of the de facto leaders of the heralds and were close). Stormfather however doesn’t treat the heralds with reverence. Further, it makes sense that if someone who had knowledge of the oathpact wanted to bring back the voidbringers and heralds, they would need to send another herald to Braize since Taln wasn’t breaking. So my thought is he was going to tie Gav to the oathpact knowing he would break and bring back the voidbringers. It also makes sense that he knew about Dalinar being important later, since Ishar thought he was odiums champion when they met.
Ahhh very interesting things to add to the conversation - especially the part about hissing and the blade. I need to reread the books keeping and eye on how the SF acts. See if there is ever that reverence anywhere else…
it seem to me he learnt from his errors with gavilar so his approach is totally different with dalinar. instead of the lie he just withelds info from dalinar until he feels ready to inform dalinar. its more interesting to me if its the same storm father. spren have shown that they can change and adapt based on they bind with.
My thoughts on the small caps: if you look at it time wise, from this point on, the Stormfather speaks in small caps. Before this statement, in italics. It could simply be an indication of a change in approach, or a different thought process taking over. After all, the Stormfather is broken as well.
Yeah, that's for sure a possibility. We just really won't know until next year 😭
Sanderson’s ability to make a reader slowly go from hating to loving a character and vice versa is unmatched. Also the way characters fluctuate between good and evil in such believable ways is insane! I’d be curious to see if Gavilar could end up with a redemption arc of some kind in later books. I mean, if he can make one for the Lord Ruler…
I feel like a redemption arc for Gavilar wouldn't make a ton of sense - Since after the next book we'll have a significant time jump, my guess is Gavilar's actions won't have a ton of relevance anymore. Maybe if this *is* the real stormfather, we'll understand Gavilar more in that context, but I feel like redemption will be hard/not useful to the story at this point.
The italics vs small caps thing makes me actually think it’s a fake. I don’t think that’s unintentional from Brandon by any means.
On Shallan, this line feels so much more prescient now: “The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.”
The biggest thing to me was Kalak saying they betrayed Ba-Ado-Mishram. That’s a huge change
Oh MAN I FORGOT ABOUT THAT LINE. Ok so like that means this theory is for sure correct RIGHT??? Sanderson did that to mess with us?
Yeah I didn't know how to take the betray thing. I want to know so much more about the unmade.
@@Bookborn There is so much we barely know or understand about the False Desolation that I just want to know more about. We got a lot more color in the prologue but I feel like that might be an unanswered question in Stormlight 5
I believe it's the storm father. It's the smaller things that confirm it for me. His opinion of dalinar and that parshindi woman who name escapes me for example.
I feel like I need to go reread every single stormfather part in the last four books to make a judgement. Right now it feels off, but that could because a) this isn't edited and b) I don't remember specifics, just general feelings about the SF from other books lol
The thing is that it is a first draft, so while the info will probably stay the same, I think a lot of the voice and the sequence of events may still change. So, us thinking that this doesn't feel like the stormfather might just be an artifact of it being the first draft.
This is absolutely a possibility, and I will laugh my head off if it's the case lol
I think that the italics to small caps change represents Stormfather (or whoever that is) cancelling the (proto)bond that he has with Gavilar (to avoid damage to himself because of Gavilar's soon death). This is based on Stormfather talking to italics to Dalinar and small caps to everyone else (or atleast that's what I remember from the books).
Or it can be used for evidence for the theory that there are two different sprens there, both the Stormfather and the imposter.
Yeah I need to go look into this. I feel like he talked small caps to Dalinar too, but maybe you're right and that was only before bonding. But in the book it seems that Gavilar hadn't even said the first words yet... so IDK IM CONFUSED
Kelsier using a Seon and a cloak as his avatar will never not be funny to me.
SEON IN A TRENCHCOAT truly cements Kelsier as the most dramatic in the Cosmere.
my reaction to most of what you talked about (regarding past cosmere works): hmmm i don't remember that
Lol I literally just finished rereading era 2 in prep for book 4 so it’s easier for me to remember 😂
@@Bookborn hahaha i'm actually starting my well of ascension reread tomorrow! i'm doing one cosmere book a month (sans stormlight) until november
I can't stop imagining Kelsier appearance as Force Ghosts from star wars and it's really amusing me XD
Also, i get that people say that Gavilar is the worst, but I like him A LOT. Like, I wanna see more of him. Sue me, I love baddies
lol I don't think anyone will deny you wanting to see him as interesting! But if you're on his side, we have other issues 😂
as for Stormfather stuff, remember that this is the first draft, so possibly Brandon will change some formatting things and perhaps edit the character voice as well in the revisions
Yeah that could for sure be part of it; I've thought about that
We knew Gavilar's prologue would be spicy! I was surprised that he didn't actually know as much as we thought he would. His own arrogance and being told by "Stormfather" what he wanted to hear led him to be so close but so off at the same time. The heralds were right there but he wouldn't consider that they were heralds. I go back and forth on whether it was the SF. My initial thought was that he is an imposter but how would he know so much about the visions and everything and I didn't remember him appearing as a shimmer or the outline of a man but apparently he has, but not as readily and constant as he was here. Also Gavilar was almost quoting death rattles, so could it be an unmade/voidspren giving him that info. An unmade/voidspren could be aware of a herald suddenly showing up on Braize. I am leaning toward it being an imposter but am not entirely convinced that it is. Maybe the SF changed after his interaction with Gavilar and was distrustful of bonding anyone (especially a Kholin) so has been more grumpy and less willing to give info to Dalinar. He just seems so different. It is also interesting that at the end, from Gavilar's perspective, he was talking to SF but it was Szeth there that we see and thought he was talking to him intentionally before. And I am thinking the theory about Shallan's mom being a herald that she killed is true. We know there is more to Shallan's past but I kept thinking she was so young, what else could she have done?? So she did restart the Desolations but it was all out of self defense and not something she should be blamed for, but she still did it so it will be interesting to see if she knew anything about who her mother really is and may meet her returned/resurrected mother in the future!
lol you literally sound like my brain. I go back and forth constantly on whether it's really the SF or not. There's compelling arguments either way and I think we just sadly have to wait. I still think I'm leaning slightly towards him NOT being the SF though...
Love the RAFO shirt
Why thank you 😊
The storm father thing definitely broke my brain xD.. I keep going back and forth on if it's really the storm father or not.. and the release of the book is so far awaaayyyyy :(
Only like...18 months until we find out 🤪
Hi there BookBorn. How are you doing? Unfortunately, I won't be able to stay. Next year, after I get done with reading the kindle versions while listening to the audio book versions of the Malazan series by Steven Erikson, I am going to dive into all of Brandon Sanderson's books. I am currently reading while listening to Gardens of the Moon for the third time. I will be working on 1 chapter per day. I hope to start working on Deadhouse Gates in May. I have also started listening to Soul of the Sword by Julie Kagawa and the Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. Have a good one.
My question is how the conversation between Gav and SF even turned to becoming a herald instead of being a bondsmith as the visions intended. SF was more open with Gav than he ever was with Dalinar which is the weird thing and probably the best evidence for fake SF
Yes see this is what I keep getting caught up on too! Why were they talking about replacing a herald when we've literally never heard anything about that before?
The book 5 prologue basically says to become a herald, there are words that need to be spoken. I wonder if that's the 5th ideal.
I don't think becoming a Herald happens through an ideal. They made a pact through the oathpact, right?
In regards to the stormfather. Without a bond a spren looses connection with themselves by being in the physical realm. This causes gaps in memory and possibly changes in personality. Syl has even said without him she goes stupid. Perhaps in order to stay in the physical realm the stormfather is connected to the storm and when he left Gavilar his connect to the storm grew larger to compensate for the loss.
Right but the thing is that as far as I can tell, the Stormfather wasn't connected to Galivar yet because he said he hadn't found the words yet...
@@Bookborn he still must have at least sworn to the first ideal. That is enough to bond a spren. The words he was looking for had to have been the second ideal.
I like to think it could be Odium speaking to Gavilar. It was kinda off how the Stormfather teases Gavilar, “ha that was almost the words! So close yet so far!” But then again, everyone is different from pre-assassination to the present and there’s no reason not to believe the Stormfather could be the same.
I’m more interested in Kelsier. I wish I’d just stumble on that knowledge in the book than seeing it online but meh. This is as good as an epic teaser for Mistborn Era 3.
What interests me more is the mention of Ba-ado-mishram being able to produce Voidlight. I’m curious if Kelsier intends to use this much power to destroy an entire planet or kill one very powerful being. The mention of the possible destruction of Roshar leaves me concerned that Book 5 is gonna end with this depressing scene with Roshar destroyed.
I think it's been theorized that Roshar being destroyed is a very likely possibility for book five. I forget how the statemetn actually goes, but someone pointed out like "well we killed people, then spren, then a literal shard...next is a planet".
I'm sorry you learned about Kelsier before hand. I was lucky to read Era 3 as they came out so it was a huge surprise.
@@Bookborn Oh no worries! I got spoiled by Brandon himself lol he really is hyping this cosmere crossover for a while.
Definitely NOT the stormfather. He's a creation of Honor and has at least some vestige of his remaining power. We know for sure that a shard's intent is binding, so anything with Honor's power has to act with honor. So I would say that it is not the stormfather that is lying to Gavilar. Not to mention "I NEED the power" is very Odium.
Also iirc the stormfather appears as just a ripple in the air, but this time it was man shaped. And those descriptions might be just in the visions, the one time I remember it being described was in a vision.
Yeah see that's why I'm only like 60/40 it's the real one. Because lying seems SO OUT OF PLACE with a shard of honor. Of course, I guess there are cryptics so...
@@Bookborn Cryptics are bad liars though, they are just really interested in the nature of lies.
@@Bookborn I'm pretty sure the cryptics are of Cultivation, or perhaps neutral. A personification of a natural concept
I know this is kinda late but I do think that maybe lying could make sense is SF thought it was honorable. I mean I think Kaladin can lie and fight and kill if he thinks it’s for an honorable purpose, like protecting others. If the SF thinks lying would be the honorable action then I don’t think it would be a problem
I think that stormfather was ishar because when the herald die it seem to pain him indicating he is actually a herald as well..and i would think stormfather would be more spren like because he is not bonded to him..
I need to look more into detail about SF relationship to Heralds and sensing it for sure. I think that may be a clue
Good points.
I think the real Stormfather is present in the chapter, but I think there is a sequence where its a fake version (the "sussfather") getting into Gavilar's day and demonstrating to the reader that he's been influenced and being taken down the wrong path. Pay attention specifically to what is said when the sussfather appears to Gavilar indoors. What is said is not in keeping with the stormfather's intent - at all. In fact, its directly aimed at accelerating Odium's plan.
Ok see that's what I'm saying. But people keep bringing up good points on the other side too. I'm still so divided, while leaning still towards "Sussfather" (Great name btw lol). I am interested to explore the theory more that there are two people in the scene...🤔
RAFO sweatshirt on point! Is that for sale somewhere?
Thanks :) I just made it for myself lol I have a Cricut that I use to make myself random shirts
I didn’t question that it was the true Stormfather until I watched this video (my Stormlight theorizing is basically nonexistent), but I think I still think it is the real one, because he feels the death of the Herald and reacts to it immediately. I don’t remember if he reacted to the deaths of the other Heralds in the other books or not though, so I could be way off base.
-T
No that's def a reason people think that it's the real one, but if it ended up being Ishar pretending to be the SF, he would feel the death too. Although, I'll be honest, I'm not sure the Ishar theory is convincing for me.
@@Bookborn in the prelude to WoK, Kalak doesn’t know which Heralds died until he meets Jezrien at the place where they leave the honorblades. The only time we’ve seen Heralds react to another’s death is when Moash trapped Jezrien’s soul in the dagger, so I don’t think the Heralds can actually feel when one of them dies unless it’s a permadeath. The Stormfather probably could bc he’s a splinter of Honor, and Honor made the Oathpact. Odium probably could too, or maybe it’s more that he can feel when a Herald returns to Braize. I’m leaning toward this Stormfather being the real one. Also, another comment mentioned that the Stormfather implies he hasn’t been bonded in a long time, but that tracks too bc the Stormfather specifically says he hasn’t bonded Gavilar.
About the Stormfather, I've seen some comments saying that this is a first draft and Peter and Karen haven't revised it yet so it make sense that there are some inconsistencies. BUT I buy a lot the theory that this isn't the Stormfather since it seems cool and it's weird that the Stormfather would help Gavilar, of all people. I don't think Ishar is that solid of a theory but an unmade seems pretty plausible. Maybe it's Chemoarish, an unmade that was often mistaken for the Night watcher the one who disguised as Stormfather. Or maybe it was Re-Sephir, the one that can imitate different forms. It also seems right that Odium (Rayse) wanted Gavilar to take the place of a herald since it doesn't seem like Gavilar would need a lot of time to break.
Also one theory I'm contemplating (even though it's a stretch) is that Gavilar pronounced the words before passing to the Beyond and he became a herald. Then he went to Braize (because Szeth killed him) and broke seven years later when Taln arrived. Though to be honest this is just copium because....
I don't like the theory that Chana is Shallan's mom and I hate that now it is pretty much confirmed. Don't get me wrong, it does make a lot of sense: Shallan's family is weird and Taln absolutely did not break, but I just don't like it that Shallan may be special because she is the daughter of someone important rather than being important for who she is. Plus, some people argue that Shallan's final truth would be admitting that she caused the Desolation which doesn't makes sense since she was a child and didn't necessarily know that killing her mom would cause that. I know that if it ends up being true (and I'm 90% sure it will) Sanderson will execute it masterfully but I don't like the idea, just my opinion of course.
In other things, what are the words that the "Stormfather" was referring to? He said that he and Gavilar weren't in a bond, and I don't think we knew about words that make you a herald after speaking them. What was Gavilar looking and how does it work??
Anyway cool video!!!! There are so many secrets in this single chapter. The waiting for Stormlight 5 will be hard but oh well Journey before Destination I guess
Yeah I'm totally with you on Shallan's mom, actually. I like the idea of her mom being a herald and all that stuff, and I don't think that makes Shallan's story different, personally, BUT I really do NOT want "Shallan caused the desolations!!" to be a thing. Like...how would she know? her mom was trying to kill her, a child that clearly already had a lot of trauma (considering she was already at an ideal where she had a shardblade), and she kills her mom in self-defense. She didn't know her mom was a herald, like, this isn't her fault.
I thought the words were the first ideal. I don't think Gavilar could get there because he wasn't really meant to be Radiant. That's just my theory tho
With regards to Shallan's final truth, you are of course right that she can be blamed for none of what happened. But i think having her accidentally start a desolation also gives a good opportunity for her arc. It can make her a much more interesting character, and it would make her character development a lot stronger, once she manages to accept that she had no choice but to do what she did.
To me, if the theory ends up being true, her final truth has to be something along the lines of "i did cause the desolation, but i accept it wasnt my fault"
What i fear could happen(and wouldnt like) is for her to find out about her mother and then go completely crazy and become odium's champion D:
I for sure hope that doesn't happen. I feel like Shallan needs a win right now 😭
Could Gavalar have a haemorlourgic spike? Could it be Mistborn’s K speaking to him? Or someone using his methods?
I feel like Gavalar would have to know if he did (although I guess Min didn't know!) I feel Brandon would've given us a hint though about jewelry or something... so doesn't seem likely but would be freaking cool
It’s not a theory but I think Brandon is setting up that some characters might end up being heralds in the future.
Yeah I'm sort of confused about that part, tbh, because that seems for sure a lie. If he said the words, he'd be a a radiant, not a herald right? I don't think we've ever seen the idea that people could *replace* heralds, right?
I haven’t read SA but I still had to watch haha. One day all of this will make sense. 😅
oh no this has intense spoilers Alicia 😭😭
@@Bookborn trust me I won't remember any of it by the time I get to way of kings
Uggg the two sentences of small caps... We talked about this for a long time.
Summary of possibilities for what we came up with:
1. Formatting in a draft and we're wasting too much time on this
2. The Stormfather is talking differently here because... Reasons
3. 2 separate voices talking
4. Some other mechanic we're not following
The stormfather talks in italics when taking to Dalinar as his bonded spren, but in small caps when he talks to others (Dalinar pre bonding, kaladin, eshoni ect)
If it’s number one I revolt at midnight.
But yeah it’s weird because he’s clearly not bonded to Gavilar yet so idk what to think. Glad I’m not the only one obsessing over this mystery
@@BookbornI could go a number of ways on this but, my current theory is:
Gavilar gets chosen to receive the visions from the storm father. Ishar highjacks that with Connection. (Possibly like a man in the middle attack). The vision is real, but anything spoken in Italics is from Ishar. The small caps is actually from the Stormfather, slipping through because ishar is distracted due to the other herald dying.
Great comment and share! we are catching up on our bookish videos today...Happy Friday Friends
I think the Stormfather can just choose whether he wants to sound intimidating or not.
In terms of the stormfather my other thought was at the very end the fact that he cared to keep talking to Gavilar until the end just leads me to think this isn't Odium especially combined with giving the sphere of antilight. Odium likely would've wanted to collect that and get rid of it if he'd known about it. But that ending just seems like it would be the Stormfather because I don't think Ishar, Odium, or any of the others pretending would care about Gavilar at all once he was clearly dying and no longer of use to them. But yeah I'm right with you on like 50/50 it's him lol.
But definitely think the Shallan's mom being the Herald theory is true after this!
For Ba Ado Mishram we did know she could create Voidlight, she was also able to provide the Singers with forms of power to fuel the False Desolation.
Oh that's a really good point in the direction of the real SF - if it was a fake person, why would they clearly care about Gavilar in the end? Hmmm ugh I'm just still conflicted
@@Bookborn Yeah it's tricky! It'll also be interesting to see after the book is released how much he's changed things given feedback. This does kind of give him a pretty massive beta read so if he wanted a different reaction he might tweak things. It'll be interesting too to see how this gets resolved in the book because I doubt we will get to the end of book 5 and have that still be a mystery.
I listened to BS reading, didn’t read. I didn’t think it was SF for the majority of this prologue. In previous novels, it feels like the SF had either never been bonded before, or at least had been aeons; it’s hard to believe that he allowed Gavilar to bond with him (if, indeed, he’s bonded instead of pre-bonding associating). If bonded….the damage done to spren when their bonded human dies…even the SF should be deeply effected.
I started strongly feeling that it was actually Odium, who is desperate to leave his prison of being locked into the Roshar system. Terevangian’s presence at the end reinforced this feeling for me. But…the voice was as wrong for Odium as it was for SF.
All that considered…by the end I DO lean toward it actually being the SF, may 65/35.
Definitely major RAFO here.
One other item. I felt that Gavilar’s use of ‘boardroom’ was very anachronistic.
Yeah I don’t think they were bonded since it doesn’t seem like he’d said “journey before destination” yet, which again makes it almost more confusing. I’m with you on 65/35. I think the evidence is convincing that it’s him but something still feels “off”.
I wonder if boardroom will be taken out of the final version, although Sanderson is often anachronistic.
When Gavilar tells him to watch the door, the Stormfather says "we have no bond" and "you are my tool" but begrudgingly does it. Which actually feels like our current grumpy cloud boi.
Stormfather would not have allowed Gavilar to retain a Dead Blade, even if he could take the constant screaming.
Therefore they were definitely not bonded when he died.
in Words of Radiance the stormfather tells Dalinar that he was giving the visions to Gavilar first
Does he?? What chapter, I haven't heard of this yet
@@Bookborn I can`t find where the stormfather says it, maybe he didn`t and i am misremembering, I did find this though: WoR CAP I-14 TARAVANGIAN "That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm"
Ahh interesting. See, this implies that we still don't know who the visions are from. Not denying that the SF might have said that...the books are long, I just don't remember 😆 I'm going to keep an eye out for it on rereads though
I think the stormfather was upfront with gavilar. He wants a new herald. He was eager at that time, but since then was loosing faith. Its not until dalinar forces his way into being his bond that he starts to turn around. i think in the end a new herald is his goal. i think he has some sort of prescience like the shards have and is going to replace jezzrian with dalinar to try to reseal the oathpact.
But do we know anything about replacing Heralds? That seems so random to me for some reason. I always felt like we were like...the heralds aren't working, ya know? Like being tortured for thousands of years just isn't it, and aren't we considering this the final desolation? IDK, I have so many questions haha
@@Bookborn I think either the stormfather thinks they just need to be replaced or it may have to do with the duel of champions. The stormfather may want dalinar to be immortal for teh duel when it arrives so he can't lose and is making sure that Dalinar stays humble.
I think it would more likely be a new oathpact, negating all the other heralds then swapping one out.
Dalanar is already in a binding contract now with Odium so maybe too late?
If he's been proven to lie now, whats to say replacing a herald was a lie too? He's already manipulating Gavilar, its possible SF's intentions he told G is a lie.
Honestly, what would a new Herald do other than start a new desolation?
@@Bookborn what would a single new Herald actually accomplish?
@@Bookborn I actually found more to support this. In the brief moment of lucidity that ishar has when they confront them he tells them a few things. 1. he is not sane 2.He can recreate the oathpact 3. something something champion that we can't make out 4. He can be made lucid in that moment in which someone makes a pact and links the spiritual realm. In this fight he shows something very similar to atium shadows. I think while honor is shit at telling the future he can do a bit and is trying to get ishar and 1 new oathpact member to take the place of jezz to reseal the oathpact. But this must be done in the very moment of the duel and someone must ascend to knights radiant during the duel of champions.
I have to say I just don't see any reason to suspect it might not be the Stormfather. Too much of if is exactly how he acts and his goals. Why would Ishar or Odium pretend to have that moment of thinking "he doesn't get it" when Gavilar talks about how if he's made a Herald he'll simply come back? What purpose could they have which would be served by making Gavilar think they disapproved?
But see I disagree because it DOESN'T seem like his goals. When have we ever assumed he wants a new herald? That's never come up.
@@Bookborn right, I get that he's lying for whatever reason. But that's a separate issue.
It would still bother the Stormfather to hear someone say they'd become a Herald and just immediately give in each time they die. Why would that bother Ishar? Or Odium? Or anyone else? Why would they act to Gavilar like that would bother the Stormfather? If they were trying to fool him, it clearly wasn't what he was expecting. From his perspective, we see he's confused why the Stormfather would think that.
Admittedly not to the point of him thinking "maybe you're not the stormfather" but if you're trying to trick someone, you don't do it by acting like the person you're pretending to be really is. You do it by behaving how the person you're trying to trick expects them to be.
I think you're getting hung up in the lie, like you think the Stormfather literally was trying to make Gavilar a Herald. He wasn't. He just lied. I see nothing here but the Stormfather acting exactly like I think he would.
Why would Odium, or Ishar, or whomever else, stick around and keep acting as Gavilar was dying? Why would he say, I will do nothing to help save your life as your doom comes?
Now I'll be honest I've only listened to Brandon reading it once, and I was doing something else at the time so I can't say I gave it my full attention but nothing in what I did hear made me think it was anything but the Stormfather. It seemed logical to me how he would go from that persona to the one we see later (or earlier if you are talking book order). He had been tricked by Gavilar and then decided he wasn't going to oppose what was coming, and definitely not help the Kholins, so to end up bonded to Dalinar to directly oppose what was coming would make him pretty upset and less than helpful. Plus it's not like he was actually bonded to Gavilar, so not being completely honest with him isn't that big of a thing for me. Now, if they HAD been bonded then outright lying would have made me doubt it was the real Stormfather, but they weren't so I'm still very much in the "it is him" camp. Maybe when I get around to reading the written version I'll change my mind though.
Yeah, idk I'm still torn. Like why would he be giving Dalinar the visions at all then if he wanted nothing to do with him? Couldn't he just...find someone else?
@@Bookborn I don't think he could, he was still working to the intent of the order he was given by Honor, before his death, whether he liked it or not.
do you have Goodreads? ❤
No 😅 I have a lot of problems with Goodreads, although I'll probably break and get one eventually. My instagram is up to date with what I'm reading although I realize it's not searchable (and doesn't go back before 2020).
I havent seen anyone mention that this is how they got the voidspren over to start the everstorm. also points more towards a stormfaker
I don't quite think so. Everything in books 1-4 state that the Everstorm has been building in Shadesmar 'for a while' and I don't think that 7 years is enough time. I'll have to look into dates a bit more.
@@NemisCassander yes it had been building for centuries, but they still needed stormform to pull it into the physical realm. Either way a desolation was coming relatively soon by way of the newly dead herald breaking or the everstorm. Gavilar transported the voidspren from Braize most likely unknowingly and I think Shallan killed the herald
I thought that I read that the Storm father was a shadow of the almighty at one point. He was a shadow of a God and spren, but I it has been a year since I read the series. Interesting though, I'll keep an open mind. It will be neat to see what direction it goes. The character Wit seems to know a lot about whats going on!
How many Sanderson's have you read? Don't want to give away info about Wit you may not know yet...
Opps looks like I have to read Rythm of War. Thats next on the list. I read the Stormlight Archive though. I better catch up. Sorry
Ok, but have you read Mistborn... I just don't want to give Cosmere wide stuff away LOL
@@Bookborn Up to date on Mistborn! Except for the Lost Metal.
So.. what if Brandon’s trying to throw us off? Kinda like how in MCU trailers they add scenes that never make it into the film? Obviously this is the first draft and so things are goin to change anyways, but maybe Brandon already knows some things he wants to keep SECRET for the next 2 years and just giving us a piece right now without spoiling too much? The change in font being a visual note for him that that part is intentionally misleading?
I believe it is the SF. Even though it hasn’t been mentioned that a herald can be replaced before doesn’t mean they can’t be. I think it could add even more depth to the stories if all that’s true, as well as give direction and something new. Some people are now on their 4th of 5 ideals, so something has to evolve or else we would have 6 books of them all maxing at the 5th, so this might be a good segway.
I also think the SF might have a bit different agenda than what we think, sort of like Hoid, Kelsier, and others. SF is probably reluctant to work with Dalinar cause he doesn’t want to, doesn’t trust humans (especially the Kholins), or feels like it’s his only option to get what HE wants even though it’s not ideal and potentially causing him to compromise on his goals.
Honor (like Preservation) could be taken too far to an extreme. But even if it can’t be, the SF is only a Sliver of Honor, which doesn’t necessarily mean that he aligns with everything Honor is. Sure he can speak that he does, but so do the Honor Spren whose actions are justified by what they think Honor is at that moment and not necessarily that what is honorable. We have seen other Spren lie as well, so why not the SF?
If the SF has a secret agenda, i feel like it has to already be off course. Was just thinking of the part in book 2 where he sends a storm to destroy everyone. Barring future knowledge, I can't see him knowing shallan would get the gate open and save everyone in time.
The thing tho is like being a Herald isn't an ideal, right? it's agreeing/entering the oathpact? So that's where I get slightly confused. But yeah, it's very possible that the SF has just changed his tactic and that's why this is such a surprise.
But also, yeah, I dont' think any of us trust Brandon anymore so maybe he's just messing with us 😂
Maybe the Stormfather visited the Nightwatcher after Gavilar died and his boon and bane were somewhat like Taravangian's where on some days he's bad ass af and other days he's a little cry baby. At least that is my head cannon.
LOLLL best head cannon
I think being a rough draft of the prologue it could be that the 'tone' of the stormfather wasnt on point.
This is a theory I've heard and I do think it's really solid. And also hilarious if true. Sent the fandom into a spiral over nothing, per usual.
@@Bookborn I do have mixed feelings with the Stormfather though, his tone definitely changed from WoK to WoR, which to me was a a huge let down felt he was nerfed so I dont find it completely off if he was like that at Gavilar's times.
I bet this (about stormfather) has been talked about before but I am pretty new to Brando, I have been binge listening to his work, just recently caught up to SLA and gave myself a break before starting WhiteSands and then either warbreaker or MBe2, there is just too much.
I don't like the "Shallans mom is a Herald"-theory.
Because it's stated very clearly that the Desolation starts, not because a Herald breaks, but because Odium has found a way to circumvent the Oathpact with the Everstorm.
In Oathbringer, there is a scene where Yasnah suggests killing the Heralds so they can lock the voidbringers in Damnation again, but someone (I forget who) says it won't work because of the Everstorm.
I think I am team "real Stormfather" but just barely. I think there's just so much about the Stormfather we don't know that I can easily see him changing his tactics with Dalinar. Plus it's a first draft so the minor characterization differences could be explained that way. But yeah, the visions are far from proof that it's him.
I think I'm in the same boat. Probably real Stormfather right now but it's like... 60/40 lol. Someone claimed the Stormfather said that he gave teh visions to Gavilar first, but I'm still waiting on a source on that because I don't remember that
Ok, the lying, manipulative, taunting SF does not mesh with the one I know. I think it's him, but that doesn't seem very Honor-like. Did SF have a major character shift like Dalanar and this is comparable to book 3 flashback insight, or is this the True Stormfather that we have yet to see. With Gavilar having a supposed longer time to bond with the SF than Dalanar and bonds helping evolve the sprens minds, maybe this is what the SF will be like later?
YES these are seriously my EXACT questions. It's so different from what we know, which is why I just can't be completely convinced it's him. But if it is, we have some surprising things coming in book 5 I think. Either, like you said, he just had a growth arc or we will see some major betrayal/major adjustments to his motives.
@@Bookborn I think there might be a clue in the description of the SF after he senses a herald die. The description of those storm eye holes and how intense he gets is disturbing.
Other than the SF and other Heralds, who else could sense the death of a herald?
I think it’s really the Stormfather. He just intentionally changed his approach with Dalinar. I prefer the story that the Everstorm and associated happenings allow the Fused back to Roshar rather than the Shallan’s mom Herald breaking thing… I’d prefer if Shallan’s specialness is not genetic in any way.
I don’t think Gavilar is the worst, he’s narcissistic and overreaching but have we forgotten about Sadeas??? He’s the worst.
lol I'm using "the worst" as just like...we don't like him. I think, in general, if you yelled "who is the worst person in Roshar right now" 75% of the fandom would shout back "Moash" so... (although I don't agree LOL)
I think Shallan's mom being a Herald wouldn't necessarily make me feel like that's what made Shallan special. Her brothers would have the same amount of "herald" in them, and besides, Herald isn't a genetic trait, but rather something that was bestowed on them anyway.
Fair point. I’m coming around on the idea after thinking it over.
The only character I couldn’t stand was Sadeas. Moash, Taravangian, Gavilar all tolerable for me.
as an audiobook listener, hearing you pronounce all the names differently is throwing me off, lmao
lol I won't judge how you spell the names if you won't judge my horrible pronunciation 😅
Team Sus-father.
Ok Sus-father is even better than stormfaker
Gavilar being the worst and also kinda dumb about things is so vindicating.
But like...so dark that Dalinar has carried this weight of being drunk on the night his bro died and then like...his brother was the one who encouraged it....
@@Bookborn Oh my god it was so screwed up. Honestly the way he thought about Dalinar and treated him was terrible, Gavilar was an awful brother who didn't deserve the love he got.
First