Is the Belt System BAD for Martial Arts???
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- Опубликовано: 1 ноя 2021
- I like complaining about traditions and institutions that everyone takes for granted. Everything you do is bad and everything you know is wrong. That's the consistent theme of my channel.
Sorry, Alexander Kehoe. This video isn't even about fighting, and your music was just too cool and action-packed to fit a video about colorful belts. I tried.
The belt system is bad for my ever-expanding gut
Best comment, hands down.
You win the internet today!
Suspenders my friend.
😄 funny wise well said !!
Pin of shame!
I hope you break into the martial arts RUclips mainstream, Jake. You consistently deliver high quality insights in an easily-digestible format and even my Dad, an extremely cynical former boxer who disagrees with everyone on principle, has nothing but praise for the stuff of yours I send on to him!
Good work man, keep it up and hopefully you’ll reap the rewards.
Thank you!
Former boxers are excellent for 'smell testing' martial arts stuff. If even they like it, it must be good! 😂
My dream is to be so mainstream that I get to criticize people on a TV show! 😁
@@ArmchairViolence I can confirm haha, although it's for diferent reasons. At least from where I am from, other martial arts are considered for middle and upper class (because they're expensive), so people think they're kinda soft. I'm a former amateur boxer, but I've been getting into other martial arts. I'm currently starting with wrestling because it looks tough and people say it's hard. It's honestly really awesome c;
Funny thing is, the belts were originally introduced simply as a way for coaches to pair up intermediate level students and above with each other away from introductory level students. All a black belt meant in the beginning was no longer a novice .
"congrats, you are no longer a dits in fighting" XD
the Japanese masters that first came up with belt systems did it to shame certain skill levels into submitting to the Dojo Kun rule systems. This way to make you want to work really very hard for the next belt and then the next belt
@@StreetSmartUKSelfDefenseGonna have to call you out on this I'm afraid.
The thing that gave away to me that you don't know about this topic is that you said the Japanese master that cane up with the belt system.
This is already false, there weren't masters, it was jigoro kano, the founder of judo. You should be aware of this if you're confident enough to try and correct someone. It's also fairly common knowledge in martial arts circles so this is even more suspicious.
The purpose wasn't to shame skill levels at all, it was exactly as stated above by someone else, it makes it easier to pair students based on skill levels. Pairing a higher grade with a lower grade allows the lower grade to learn more effectively and isnt at much of a risk of being injured, pairing a higher grade with a higher grade allows both students to practice high level techniques safely. Originally in judo there were white belts and black belts and that's it. Eventually coloured belts were introduced to be further able to distinguish students based on ability.
I would suggest reading up on the topic before trying to correct someone.
I used to compete in Judo a lot. I definetly had over 100 fights. My Gym was by far the best in the country and we were also pretty successful (we even won a few medals in the latest olympics) internationaly eventhough our coach wasn't the best fighter himself.
And when it came to belts, you had to have competed at a certain poitn. We had a little booklet our coach would stamp after a tournament. The reason was because after a certain rank, I think it was 5th or 6th kyu, you had to have fought a certain number of competitions. It wasn't a crazy amount, maybe like 5 fights and it went up by 5 each rank. You didn't have to win, just part take. But our coach always said, if you want to rank up in a Martial Art we expect you to have Martial Experience.
I always thought that was a very good take
I could see that, in order to rank up you had to have some fighting experience even if you were more like a knowledge person and even if you lose the majority of them but that in turn also motivates you to get better at the fighting aspect.
having a certain set of practice/experience is a great idea. i wish my dojo had a mandatory amount for each rank. we kind of do for attendance but its not set in stone
I had a new white belt come into my class. The guy was a beast. D1 wrestler and had some level of judo background. Belt colors mean nothing, and it was quite humbling to see that while he didn't know everything, he was more than capable of putting together what he already knew to the great dismay of many of our higher belts. Great video, and an excellent reminder to those who believe that a belt color is a talisman to ward off evil or guarantee success.
This isn't surprising at all. Like you wouldn't question the fact that an experienced Muay Thai guy with 20 fights can probably step into a karate dojo and do well against black belts.
Many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques originate from wrestling and Judo (mostly Judo; almost the entire set of submissions have been passed onto BJJ from Kodokan Judo), so he was probably more skilled in BJJ than you think, depending on his exact Judo training (for instance, national team members of Judo usually train a ton of submissions and getting to submissions).
No shit, Sherlock 🎉
BJJ gyms usually don’t train like athletes . The intensity of most of their gyms caters to guys in their mid 30s. Wrestlers and competitive grapplers likepeople training for the judo Olympics are going to kill most black belts. Black belts can mean little if they can’t execute the movements they’re aware they need to do. Knowledge you can’t apply in a sparring match doesn’t mean much. That’s why blue belts at worlds destroy black belts.
They train like athletes. IMO black belts need to relax with their ego for that reason. I’ve seen BJJ gyms get upset over guys going intensely because they’re wrestlers. It’s a sport.
The belt system is great for large groups from an instructor standpoint when you have a very objective curriculum. However, some schools have way too many. While I agree belts have become about getting money that was not their intended purpose. The belt system was first used in Judo and adopted from competitive swimming. The belt color did represent skill and it was created to keep the sport of judo fair so that all competitors were competing against equally skilled opponents and prevent mismatches. Basically no pee wee players going against major leaguers.
This needs to be mentioned. The belt system was used in Judo because you had big classes and teachers had to be able to know at a glance who were the advanced students (the ones wearing black belts), and who were the non-advanced students (the ones wearing white belts). Initially, there were only two belt colors. The rainbow of different flavored belts happened in America when a Karate school messed up their order of belts and wound up getting a range of colors instead of just black, and white, and they just ran with it. If you only have a half-dozen students, there's no need for belts. But you probably can't run a commercial school with only a half-dozen students. But if you have a lot of students, with some guys leaving, coming back, leaving again, etc. you're not going to be able to keep track of everything. You'll need to use SOME method of telling at a glance where they are in the curriculum. It could be belts. Or it could colored t-shirts. Baseball caps. Bandanas tied around the knees. Doo-rags tied around the heads. Dyed hair. Belts have persisted because they're probably one of the most convenient ways of indicating rank.
One more thing, the belt system is great when applied to a young class, adults are better with the Black and White only system and if the group is small enough, no belts are needed. That said if its a very specific type of martial art, the belts may be representative of specific patterns or katas etc so as most instructors already know, some moves or patterns require a certain amount of muscle and or tendon strength or they could be damaging to the body. No teacher wants to damage a young [or older] student by allowing them to attempt things they saw in a movie , maybe crippling themselves... in summery, belts can have a very well thought out reason in several areas of martial arts or other athletic activities.
Schools should only have one black belt. The kid who beats up all of his classmates and wins a full contact kumite. Strike hard
Strike first
No mercy
Lol
Karate guy here, I can tell you it's common practice for people to lie about their belts all the time. If there is no central power governing all the records, there is no efficent way to enforce the system.
@@madmaxiemartialartsnerd485 It's a bit like the way people lie about their Cvs or what they do on first dates though yes
It might make sense for kids (some kids at least). I used to train judo as a kid but simply stopped "graduating" (doing the katas and tests) since i figured out a lower belt gave me an edge at competitions.
Being underestimated is sometimes useful and I'm a lazy person so doing work for little benefit is not really my thing. I was also fortunate to be at a dojo with a competition focus so most of the coaches were supportive and did not push me to "get the belt".
How did having a white belt give you an edge? All my judo competitions were weight based not belt based. Olympics, boxing. Etc all weight based.
@@MisterGamesProbably gives you the surprise factor against someone who might underestimate you for being a lower belt. Only to be curbstomped afterwards.
@@MisterGames Kumite here in India are weight and age based. But for Katas they are age and belt based in three groups beginner white to green belt, blue to first brown, higher colour remaining brown belts, then for black belts katas are done by age I think they have cadet junior and senior black belts based on age so under 16 for cadet. Something like that. But for olympics or international level it doesn't work that way. More for local or regional competitions. Though this is for Karate in India guessing its similar but I may be writing out of turn
Yaasss!! Besides the whole "I'm a black belt, so I know better," there's also the "I'm a fighter/champion, so I know better." I was arguing with someone once on where you should look during fighting. So, I asked a close-by black belt about it, and the answer was "you'll know when you fight" or "when you fight, you'll figure it out" (I can't remember exactly).
This sounded wise for half a second, before it became painfully obvious that he didn't know the answer and just used his fighting experience as a way to dodge the question.
A lot of times I hear you can't understand competition fighting (or you can't train others for it well) without actually fighting, which... cool. There are certain insights you get while fighting in competitions just like you get certain insights whenever you spar. But, even if I didn't get your fighting insights, I can still steal them from you. I can ask you and 20 different other Senseis, get the best information from all and combine it into a training curriculum that's superior to all of theirs.
The advantage of the 'underdog' is that he's actually motivated to go ahead and do his research while the 'prodigy' will think whatever got him/her to the top will work for everyone.
I recently rolled with a white belt who has been training for years and he kept tapping before I even had the submission on. When I talked to him about it, it came out that he was doing it because he assumed a purple belt could tap him easily. I hopefully set him straight
your sarcastic persona or whatever it would be called... is so wonderfully entertaining :3
I basically agree, but I still love belts. For me, they are fun. They help me to think about long term development. I also think belts should be individual and about personal progress, rather than an assumption about your ability to win fights. It's also a good record of time spent training and a reminder of your time on the mats.
There is another aspect of function that wasn't present, the gatekeeping of knowledge. That belts are used as a means to justify not teaching a student particular techniques because "they aren't ready for it" reinforcing the need for this progression and validation. Alternatively if belts are an indicator that the practitioner has some knowledge, it's a shorthand to enable instructors to adjust their lesson plan based on the assumed knowledge of the class.
All in all the conclusion is that belts aren't an issue, it's the values we and the schools place on them and it's only in questioning the value of a belt that we can actually gain the benefits they may offer.
Exactly, when i was in Taekwondo my teacher was 3rd Dan and could do every single move, he was young tho, early 30s so that kind of athleticism is lost with time, he was really honest with belt exams, 2 weeks before and exam he will talk in private with every student if they were capable enough to the test, or what is the one thing they need to polish asap before the exam, so the less skilfull students didnt have to go to an exam my teacher knew thay will fail, he was strict and also in middle of the class he asked to execute a previous belt kick so he knew that we would do fine, sparring and tournaments were never factors in belt progression, but i knew that other schools prioritized having black belts cuz prestige, were actual competence from inferior belts can be very very helpfull
I agree with pretty much everything said in this video. I’m a 3rd Dan in taekwondo with my own club and with some of the jumping kicks I’ve used lower grades to demonstrate because they are younger, more flexible than me and can do them better 🤣
I’m a first dan black belt in taekwondo and there 3rd and 4th dan black belt that I could beat up with one hand tied behind my back however I know there are some coloured belts that could beat me up with a hand tied behind their back
@@BoredTAK5000 absolutely! I’m not ashamed to admit some of my students are better fighters than me. I’m actually happy because they must have learned something from me and able to implement it better than I can when sparring
I feel like you nail it on the head. It’s a mixture of everything, it’s positive reinforcement but its also something to show that you’ve done the work and gotten to a certain point. It’s kind of like those marathon challenges you see online that’ll give you a medal or something that shows you’ve reached a certain distance marker.
Another banger from Mr Violence!!
Remember me? I was the guy struggling with grappling with women asking for advice. Something I left out was I had a lot of trauma associated with the touch of a woman's. But I've been getting more comfortable with rolling with them! Thank you for the advice. BJJ wasn't my cup of tea but I've been enjoying wrestling.
One note though about no gi and gi. Wouldn't doing gi like... make you really good at something that gets only decent in no gi? Like wrestlers coming to MMA with an insane wrestling base vs a guy training in MMA from the beginning because aight at everything
An anecdotal story from me supporting this is that a lot of guys (myself included) are ass with our hands because it's not very emphasized in muay thai. We supplemented it with some boxing because learning punching in a vacuum helps out a lot
Awesome, Dude! Good job!
Wrestling is a good system. As long as you know a little bit of BJJ, wrestling works great!
Gi does get you better at certain things, but those things are more specific to gi. You could focus on boxing to improve your Muay Thai because all of the boxing moves can still be used in Muay Thai.
But training gi also involves a lot of grip work that simply doesn't exist in no gi.
Plus, the common argument is that you can't reach your potential in no gi without training gi, which is absurd. It would be like telling a wrestler they HAVE to learn Judo, even though the grips for most of the Judo throws don't even exist in wrestling.
The argument can get a little nuanced, so I might make a video about it, at some point.
@@ArmchairViolence would be super interested to watch a video on this topic, especially since the emergence of full time nogi guys like DDS (RIP) and 10th planet.
@@ArmchairViolence Alright thank you for the clarification! Yeah I think seeing a video covering this would be a very cool watch
I appreciate the way you make no claim to have any qualifications. It means you have to support your arguments from logic rather than being hypocritical and making an argument from authority.
One of my BJJ coaches said your belt rank is just a representation of where your coach thinks your skill level and or knowledge is at.
Good stuff!
Thanks for sharing.
Belts are about motivation, accomplishment, recognition, pride, and rank/status … which can of themselves be good or bad, depending on how each of these reasons is viewed and/or utilized by an individual, a school, or an organization.
There's an old saying, "Belts are for wearing around the waist, not the head."
Great stuff as usual!
Personally, I love the positive reinforcement aspect. Like you said it makes it more fun which makes it easier to stick to it.
But I do feel like their is too much emphasis on all of it.
I guess what we need is more time explaining it kinda like you did! 👍
Makes me think of how people like you have been raising awareness on sparring etiquette which I've learned tons from.
Hmmm...suppose a martial art reinvented the belt system to have different belts based on the categories you described. For instance, someone might be a brown belt in competition, a green belt for time invested, and a white belt in fight analysis. Such a system would be more complicated for sure but theoretically would also remove most of the current downsides of modern belt systems.
That's what I was thinking as well.
I had a similar idea. You could also maybe make the three distinct items of clothing, say gi colour for skill in competitions, belt colour for technique and ability to teach and something else for time invested (though I‘m not sure if the last should be graded as well, as a disproportionate ranking in time and the other two could be discouraging either for the person in question or everyone else).
4:10 just because you're an expert in something doesn't mean you can't be wrong in that subject I love the appeal to power/authority fallacy
2nd Degree Taekwondo Black belt here, training for 23 years by now. I love your video and agree with your points but want to make an addition: As someone who does not like competitions for several reasons, I really like the belt graduation tests. It's challenging in an athletic and creative way, forces me to expand upon my standard training routine and especially black belt tests feel and look really cool for all present people, athletes, judges, trainers, and spectators alike. In the best case of a fair, well-regulated exam it's a sign of dedication and competence. At its worst an ego-stroking, cashgrab. But even I don't wear my belt in any martial art other than the one I graduated in and I am not too proud to take pointers from anyone who knows his stuff, no matter the belt.
Tell the truth young man, consistently and with deliberate repetition, with redundancy for all lol. Your probably tired of me saying it, but this is a quality of content not often found through such a platform. Continue to distill and refine and grow down into your roots.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
I appreciate how thoughtful you are on this topic.
The problem I see with removing belts as the solution to the problems you talk about is that there is going to be a hierarchy and egos whether you like it or not. The brain is constantly looking for and figuring out social hierarchies as a survival mechanism. To make matters worse, the brain is an efficient organ and it will almost always make use of some kind of shortcut to quickly and subconsciously figure out the hierarchy rather than activating the thinking brain and being all mindful about it. Belts just "solve" the problem and reduce the time spent figuring out who is higher and who is lower and narrow the process of ascending the hierarchy.
Is it a perfect system that you can rely on without looking at anything else? I've watched McDojoLife, I know that it isn't. But as for the problems that belts "cause", I think they are just a visible representation of something we will always have to deal with. It would be better to try and improve the belt system, how we manage the hierarchy in a Dojo/gym, and educate people on how to identify charlatans, rather than remove belts and think it's going to flatten the hierarchy instead of just hiding it. If you want to keep egos in check, then social pressure and establishing a culture that punishes egotistical individuals is going to do a lot more than removing belts.
Also, coming from a traditional background that didn’t do belts, I can confirm that in spite of thinking that belts were only good for holding your pants up, I was walking on air for weeks after receiving two stripes together after training for a few months 😂
A black belt is like a high-school Diploma. It isn't really equal and it doesn't really mean you are really good at something. In my experience.
Just watched this, and really like your approach. Great video!
your presendings are a gem and i am glad to have them
It would be cool if belts were like lightsaber colors, and instead of rank they more so identified a person's interest or role. So you'd have a color for the ones who are competition based, and they'd have their own color system. Then you could have the ones more focused on light sparring/general fitness. Some could be more focused on sheer experience and knowledge, not necessarily matches won. It'd be kinda interesting to me, at least. Like you need help with your takedowns, so instead of just looking for a black belt you would look for a color signifying a person who is specializing in mentoring and knowledge.
Alright, this is a pretty good idea. And points for Star Wars references!
Great video! Well-balanced. Indeed, the belt system is just a tool, which can be used for good or bad. Ideally, I think it should be based on tangible criteria, and come with the necessary guidance to be used properly for beginners and higher ranks alike.
Thanks for sharing! 🙏
- Patrick
They should have more belts you can earn for specific things and wear whichever one you want, like a camo belt for military service, $100 bill belt for how much money you've spent at the gym, gold belt for winning a championship/tournament, you could have some fun with that
I just want to express my interest in that future video about gi, no-gi and training specificity.
But great wideo, as always.
Another great video sir! Keep it up!
Congratulations youve just awakened this utopian thought in me where we have a belt for every single skill and ability in martial arts lol
this is a serious issue with top competitors that became coaches after retirement, short and stocky wrestlers are oblivious that their moves wont fit well on a tall thin guy (or the other way around) and as they are over specialized on a particular group of techniques they suck at teaching moves that might fit other body types/styles
Goin down an armchair rabbit hole today. Enjoying the info, laughin my ass off, and chasing the things you’re saying around in my head. I love it. I love it all.
After this, I shall think nothing of falling down stairs!
I'm a seventy-five year old martial arts practitioner. I love it! There is always room for growth which keeps it interesting. I agree with you totally that belts are not really a necessity. In fact, in tournaments, I have found some competitors stay at a lower belt in order to compete with novices. One person had been a green belt for 10 years and had treasure drove of trophies on a mantle in his instructor's dojo. Another practice at a dojo I used to attend was the timing of belt promotions. To take the test, you had to pay a fee. Somehow belt tests always took place just before Christmas. I wonder why?
You sir hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I could train with you.
I LOVE THIS!!😶 The honesty behind this is exactly what defines the idea of personal self improvement🤜✊️🤛
In Japan many federations will have a kyu/dan ranking system for personal progression, but a title based one for instruction-related positions (Kyoshi/Renshi/Hanshi). Not always how it’s used though, but FWIW the colored belt started with the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1905 apparently, at a time where they already had titles for instructors, showing that such division of classification was most likely to serve this kind of objective.
Very interesting. Great content!
It's definitely good for the new people who have never trained, might be woefully out of shape, and have never thrown a punch before...i.e., me when I first joined my academy. As you mentioned in the video, it's a visual reward and reinforcement to the new person that they're working towards a goal.
I'm only 1 1/2 years in to my journey but still recognize a lot of weaknesses that I have to work on and my blue sash, while rewarding and I'm proud to have earned it, also shows how little I know.
There's nothing wrong with being compensated for providing a service, teaching total newbies martial arts, helping them get more physically fit, and furthering the continuation of the martial art.
The question I'm coming away with is if the downsides of the belt system are greater than the upsides. I think that trade off should be the lens that we view the worthiness of any habit in a martial arts space.
Side note: In the historical fencing organization I am a part of, we have a separate track for learning to teach and being a referee that is not fighting skill related. I think that being separate from our advancement system helps break down some of the issues you've highlighted. Thought?
Love the content. Keep it up.
I think that could help a little, but it's also really hard to categorize progress like that. The categories I mentioned were just kind of examples. I think people are going to have more specialties than we can reasonably create tests for.
Plus, the good thing about being able to specialize in anything and still get a new belt is that it allows creativity and finding your own path.
However, having different tests does at least publicly recognize differing skill sets. So, it might just depend on how you use it and what your goals are.
I mean, isn’t it really both? Lol. You look at it from the perspective of kids classes for example. Getting belts, patches, certificates, whatever, gives them something to work toward. Keeps them interested. Cause if you’ve ever taught kids, you know that’s the most important part. Keeping them interested lol. As adults tho, it really is more of, you’re now paying the gym every month, helping to keep that gym going, which in turn, gives you a place to train. I think belts should be a personal thing. Does any one need a belt to be an accomplished martial artist? Well no, we have plenty examples of that thru history. Is having one for your accomplishments good? It can be if you let it. I’ve done martial arts for a few years and currently am training toward a black belt in karate. I know I don’t “need” that belt, but I’ve always been interested in karate and want it for my own personal satisfaction. That’s just my thoughts tho lol
It's a good motivation technique and helps instructors to quickly differentiate in mixed classes.
As a life-long gamer, the belt system strikes me as very similar to an achievement system - you'll want those achievements, but getting them won't necessarily make you better at that specific game, though some do require genuine skill/long-term time investment to acquire. Elo ranking, by contrast, does measure skill within a specific group setting and can be equated more to competition rankings.
I'm contemplating on refusing a belt if I ever get into any form of martial art (mainly interested in Greco-Roman wrestling, bare knuckle boxing, MMA, and potentially Muay Thai). For now, I'm still mainly a lifter that has a heavy boxing bag at home.
I personally think belts look cool but that's about it. I love your channel bro youre so fucking awesome ans smart man
"Money won't make you happy" - said someone who doesn't have to worry about their bills
"Real beauty is on the inside" - said the 10/10 supermodel who's never experienced being ugly a day in her life
"Belts don't mean anything" - said someone who has reached the end of the belt progression
"What is jiu-jitsu? Just get up" - said the 270lbs monster nicknamed Black Beast who can literally just get up
I think it’s a good way to gauge the progress of a student. I also believe that it depends on the how the belt was achieved. Some people pay for them and others by hard work. Hard work should always be acknowledged. I don’t feel that it is BS, in the right hands a black belt can do a lot for someone. That being said accolades to an egomaniac can have dire consequences. "Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's
character, give him power'
-A. Lincoln
Dude doesn’t run out of Batman T-shirts, great channel btw…
Very well articulated
It is not hard to tell a world champion he doesn't deserve a bb at all.
"A bb means mastery and understanding of the arts, you lack understanding and thus you don't deserve a bb yet"
Tadaaaah
I agree, in my experience at several gyms the color rankings seem arbitrary or based more on longevity and number of classes attended. Classes are divided by color rankings so *in theory* people would be paired w partners similar to their ability, but often that’s not the case.
I’ve been paired w people several ranks above me who are definitely less skilled and knowledgeable than I am, and people several ranks below me who end up teaching me tons. I am curious to know in your opinion, what is the best way to divide up classes to give students the best experience and opportunity to grow.
No idea what the perfect answer is. I personally favor schools that largely ignore ranking systems.
Someone else in the comments suggested merit badges for specific skills, so people could be recognized for their specialties. I thought that was a pretty good idea, as well.
@@ArmchairViolence I love that idea. With the right culture, that could easily raise the skill levels of every member at the gym!
Seeing this I agree with most points, although I’m very glad that at our gym and from most of my experiences black belts I met have been very humble and knowledgeable of the fact that they are still people who don’t know everything there is to know
I am discovering the Art knows your dedication 🙏
Can relate with this. Spent 15 years as a kendoka, an art with a large amount of quality control in the higher grades. You can't get your higher grades without going to an official grading done by a federal jury. We don't wear any markings that distinguish us but use the same kyu-dan system.
Compare that to my karate dojo, with next to no quality control, black belts are awarded as participation awards. Eg my girlfriend has spent about 9 years there and just got her belt. Whenever I compare her onowledge, skill and what have you to what she'd need to get a black belt equivalent in kendo... She'd still have quite some learning to do. Don't get me started on the guy who's inherited the dojo's absolute lack of skill, knowledge or coaching ability.
Bloody frustrating
Surprised no one criticises the test/exam vibes. I myself already went to school, I already went to university, when I want to join a martial arts club, it is to go there, enjoy my time, and learn. Exams turn it into a disheartening 'do or die' or 'pass and FAIL' experience, I don't want these unnecessary nerves. The only nerves I need to face are that of purely fighting. That's why boxing takes the cake for me: simple, effective, and it's all about you stepping into the ring, learning yourself and learning via the guidance of the coach observing you. Enjoy the journey, appreciate the learning, trust the process, no need to learn 50 push-ups by month X, there's no time limit nor any duration to learn anything, it's YOUR journey and yours alone, no need to compare yourself to others which is a toxic habit belts can get you into.
I'm a first Dan black belt in karate and I never pass up an opportunity to learn something new from anyone. If it's clear to me that they know what they're talking about and the technique looks valid I couldn't care less about your age or rank. My instructor is a 6th Dan but she'll often ask me to demonstrate a lot of the spinning kicks and high kicks simply because she's not as flexible and agile as she once was, whereas I'm young and quite flexible so I'm better for demonstration purposes.
Great video Jake
My Kempo instructor is 3rd Dan and he doesn't want to know anything about what I know. LOL You are lucky. What I wouldn't do to do some Wing Chun had drills.
@jibmoney google what sunk cost fallacy is and stop going to that scam school
That kindergarden secret had killed me 😂
I had an experience with being given a belt but not for fighting skill. After I moved I kept practicing kajukenbo and doing what I could. When I finally got to have another class with my teacher he ended up giving me my third green stripe (how belts work in Kajukenbo is you start with no belt, then white belt next, and then you have three stripes in between belts after that)
He straight up told ne “you didn’t earn this stripe cause you’re good at fighting. You earned it because you were diligent in practicing and you listen attentively when I’m telling you things.”
Wouldnt a BADGE system like in scouts work better? Black belt with a gold star embroidered on it for showing up, a gold fist badge for winning competitions, one for knowledge & coaching etc.
I think that would not only be useful but super cool
@@keepermovin5906 I know right? How much more badass would belts look then? It would be interesting to see how a different school marks their talents and achievements. There could also be tally badges for wins and tournaments could then give out fancy metal medallions to be seen in instead of trophies... Belts would tell a story about the MAs then.
You should have talked about where the belt system came from. I was waiting for you to mention that it all began around 1896 with the founder of Judo Jigaro Kano. Before that there was no belt system. Thank you for the video great presentation as always
In judo, they used to have belt tournaments. Someone would fight against people of the same belt. If you go 10 and 0 you would get promoted to the next level. When I was competing to get a brown belt or a black belt you had to be evaluated by a provincial or national (depending on the level) grading board. But before you could test, you needed to accrue a certain number of "points". You got points by winning in competition - more points for beating someone of a higher rank than you and less for beating someone of a lower rank than you (and none for beating someone of a much lower rank than you). You needed 110 points as a brown belt to test for your black belt.
More than once after a national championship, I have seen someone be given a promotion on the spot without having to test. That is usually due to their performance at the tournament and often combined with performances at other international tournaments where the grading board decides this person clearly demonstrates the ability to be the next rank and does not need to be tested.
Yes, there were paths for "non-competitors" to get promoted, but that required more time at each level. Being an instructor, referee, or administrator helped. But belt color was and should be about being good at your martial art - not about having come to practice for the longest, or paid the most in testing fees over the years.
Yeah true, when i was switching from jiu jitsu to kickboxing my mom wanted me to wait until after the belt/slip exams, and i just wasn't having fun there so i switched without going for that month.
You absolutely nailed it
Great points ma man.
Hmmm those were really well constructed arguments. What are your thoughts on Josh Barnett saying how catch wrestling suffered by not having a belts concept. Both from the standpoint of lineage verification and the commercialization of the art that could increase the amounts of students?
I think that's a really good thing to think about.
However, there are plenty of combat sports that don't have belts. Muay Thai, boxing, fencing, and other forms of wrestling, for example.
I think the important difference here is that the arts that survive without ranking systems determine legitimacy through regular competitions. Catch wrestling also failed to get a decent competition scene going, which meant that there was no clear goal for people to achieve.
I think you could replace the belt system with competitions and do fine. Because that gives students a goal to work towards, potentially gets eyeballs on your art, and establishes a path to being considered "legit". But, if you have neither, you could be in trouble.
Those are all really great points. I love your logical breakdowns on your videos. Keep it up! I also look forward to more of your videos!
I am a lover of the belt system. I find myself quite fond of the ides that our modern sport of mma was based on martial artist who compared belt rankings of different styles, battling to or near to the death to prove their styles superiority. Quite fond and almost nastolgic of the idea. There are issues like you said, but in a sport where the cost for failure is potentially serious injury or maiming then I think it's best to establish levels to combat, like the belts or rankings. People need a system to let them know where they stand, or their ego will run away with them.
Ooooohhhh I can’t wait to watch this!
My main reason for wanting to get the next level patch is because I enjoy the ego of nominally being the highest rank at the club. I can't fight for shit (which is why I'm taking boxing and kickboxing classes), but the idea of having a cool new patch does keep me motivated to keep training. It also helps that the higher-level curriculum is essentially guarded like a sacred text, so you can't even legitimately view it until you reach the required rank. I mean, the instructor is happy to show me everything from everywhere in the curriculum, even the stuff HE doesn't officially have access to, but the organization itself is...kind of stupid that way. But the advent-calendar-style approach to revealing the curriculum does provide an incentive to keep going, even though from a training perspective it's stupid.
Just as pointed out in this video: the belt system has pros and cons. I admit that in my early career it was very important to me.
In Kendo, we dont wear belts, but we use the Kyudan ranking system to sort folks based on their memorization of techniques and philosophy. Theyre qualified to teach, but the rank only establishes their minimum understanding of shiai necessary to teach.
Also, for us, first degree blackbelt is (shodan or First Dan) is a basic compentency (Senpai, upperclassmen, higher ranking lower enlisted in the military) You dont start teaching as a Sensei (teacher, NCO in the military) until fourth dan/degree black belt.
The idea that you respect and dont challenge is about teaching respect, but youre expected to challenge the ideas in you mind, and to test your new resulting ideas in shiai/sparring, and once youre 4th dan, to leave and start teaching yourself.
"There are great coaches that are bad fighters" like Ramsey Dewey.
No! He was a great fighter, and they are Sinsais, not teachers.
@@GaryTongue-zn5di Have you actually watched his "pro" fights? He is so slow and unathletic with the footwork of a sloppy amateur. A lot of people with no MMA experience would wax him in a fight.
Can relate, my 3rd dan blackbelt kyokushin instructor was a specimen and can teach but some of the black belts under him are just kata machines but cant fight.
Once upon a time I was a purple belt teaching black belts and many of them needed and benefitted from my coaching.
Sorry for my ignorance: is there no rank system in MMA? How can someone become a trainer / coach? By years of experiences, number of competitions, or of victories, or...? Thanks for your help in advance.
Thank you ! Yes a bit of both!
This was pretty nuanced. The many reasons one would get a belt, be it time, competition, or contributions.
I also agree that sometimes the belts can turn into a negative to the spirit of things. Some folks appeal to authority per the black belt and no one should be above learning or criticism in good faith. Ive seen black belts turn folks egotistical. The irony is sometimes that same ego actually screws them later because they sometimes become too proud to learn
Honestly I'd say it's a mix of both and the reason I say that is because certain gyms will not promote you to a higher belt unless you have the skills and others will despite the lack of skills. It's a dilemma I've seen quite a bit of but I don't think I have any better answer than what you might be able to come up with.
My friend is a black belt in Red Dragon Karate, Kung Fu and Judo. He got a brutal butt kicking at a bar by a dude who was a big brute. My friend’s kicks bounced off him like a nerf football. The fight ended up on the ground and my friend tried an arm bar but to no avail. The guy literally pulled my friend up off the ground with his arm that my friend was trying to submit. My friend probably would’ve won the fight if he had the element of surprise. However, they agreed to go outside and square off against each other. My friend had to get stitches and call in sick for a week. I stopped hanging out with him because he kept putting my life in danger. I go out to have fun, not to fight.
External validation and not a positive reinforcement is not a negative nor signifier that someone is mentally weak or stupid. A lot of MMA UFC Gymbros talk about how they don't need a belt because it's external and "They know how good they are" and don't care what others think. Except the act of fighting is explicitly a social act where your goodness or badness at that act requires it to be done in comparison to other people.
It's ok for people to be motivated by external validation such as belts or stickers, and it's especially ok in a field where your skill level requires it to be compared to others. Unfortunately when talked about there's almost always an implication that using positive reinforcement or external validation is an appeal to a weakness in humanity, instead of just how humans work.
I do agree that belts can mean a lot of different things, even within the same martial art, but as long as people are honest about that I think some general consensus on what they mean is achievable, and we shouldn't use exceptions to throw out the entire system.
I'm a 2-star red belt and I'm a member of the pioneering batch of students in my city for my martial art. I out-rank most of my classmates except for other seniors. When our instructor is unavailable, we seniors are tasked to teach the lower belts. I usually end up being in a class taught by a student one rank below me (1-star red belt) and quite frankly, he's far better than me. I just started training a year or so before him, but he has a background in karate and is pretty damn good.
Belts, in my experience, only tell you what form a student should know, and how long they've trained. To be fair, if their belt is high enough, it's not unreasonable to assume they're at least decent at what they do.
Before I received real training, I walked into a belt school and asked the “instructor” if they taught headbutts, knees and elbows? And he said “No, because those moves are way to lethal”. No joke. Feel bad for the other students there that were paying their hard earned money in order to get ripped off.
Good points. I completely agree with everything you said. Whilst I was learning we had 6 kyu grades, however we only ever trained in white belts until becoming a black belt. Even then we dont have anything external markers such as tabs to distinguish between the dan grades. Now that I teach I rarely teach in Gi, because of the lot of the points you mentioned. I don't like the hierarchy.
I do think "rewards" to show progression is a good idea but I'm not sure on current structures as learning isn't linear. You gave the example between teaching and competing, there is also proficiency with different techniques or styles. For example if you have a weapon based MA someone might be good with weapons but terrible empty hand or visa versa. It then becomes difficult to grade skill as its can sometimes be comparing apple and pears. I suppose that's why it would be difficult to have a belt system or similar in MMA (as it encompasses so many skills and specialisms).
Personally I think the two really should sit separately, competition or proficiency rank and rank in teaching (assistant coach, specialism coach etc).
Anyway, just some thoughts!
Apples and PEARS? Revolutionary!
@@institches2750 Haha or oranges! It's late and I've just finished training!
@@AlexanderGent No worries! It made me chuckle!
@@Matt90Ninethat is quite thorough! So my background is Aikido (spare the aikido jokes, heard them all before 😂). I think some aspects have carried across such as 6 Dan onwards being more about what you bring to the organisation etc. Although I think it does also happen to an extent at 4&5 Dan. I think the technical grading is really good, because that suits people that are elderly but are dedicated and do not want to complete. This is kind of the idea with Aikido grades which tend to focus on technical ability until 1st Dan. 2nd is about having that technical ability but with more solid grounding. 3rd is more dynamic and 4th is more inivotive. Now this is with our style which is weapons based, which is vastly different from other more commonly known styles. The problem I have is we cross train which complicates things even more. Hence the reason, I'd personally rather not label things.
Your coaching structure sounds very organised. I know practitioners in other arts as well and I don't think any other arts I've come across are as well structured 👍
@M99 Tomiki Aikido (which is basically half Judo) has a very similar approach. They have a formalised system for instructors (actually I did my coaching cert through them). Totally agree with the points you make. As you've mentioned BJJ I will stick with that example. I have friends that train at two different styles and they are both have a very different to the approach to coaching. From what I understand the Gracie Academy has a very thorough program for coaching whereas on the flip side Gracie Barra seems to be more based on experience / rank etc.
With regards to safety I that particular important when it comes to kids, but other aspects too. I remember when I did my coaching cert it wasn't so much about what you were teaching it was the way you taught, health and safety, learning styles, all of that.
The only people who say or think belts matter are those who haven't gotten it and realised the game didn't magically get easier now. I used to have a problem with the belt system always thinking I deserved a higher belt or rank than I got. Nowadays I like the idea of being lower ranked as less is expected of me, and it hurts the egos of the higher belts when they get beaten by one >:)
Back in the day, belts meant something. Now it's been diluted to where it's unrecognizable. To see a black belt in a school other than the head instructor left us awestruck. Now I see black belts sitting on the floor playing with their toys waiting for class to start.
As a student, not a teacher, in the martial arts I tried the "belt exams" were usually hard physically, technically and we also had to know theory, rules and history. But, there are always the differences... In my six years of Shaolin Kung Fu (Red Star Level, kinda 4th "belt") I never had the fighting quality that six months in Kyokushin Karate gave me (White Belt). Belts are okay as a measurement system inside each gym/school/dojo, and a cool fuel to keep going, but not much else, I guess. I like to have the belt colors to keep track of my progress.
I agree with what you're saying. So it falls to the black belts to do what they ask everyone else to do and check our egos at the door as well. If someone else is better at something than I am, I'll ask them to teach it to you. I don't compete against many of my students but I'm very clear that it has nothing to do with me be "so deadly" that it's not safe for them. It's because I'm old and fragile, and they're amazing athletes who I can't even serve as a warm-up for anymore. I'm good at what I'm good at, and I'm fine not being good at everything. As anyone senior, we have to accept what we're good at and what we aren't.
I know I'm late on this topic but it may make sense to come up with a system that actually has a scorecard system. Each category, such as competition, coaching, analysis, technique, tenure, etc could have an individual score and people leveled up in that way. I know it sounds like a combination of Boy Scout badges and RPG stats but I think this could serve as an improved yet imperfect way to be clear about people's abilities AND give well defined goals to keep them motivated.
I only wore three belts my whole early training life, white, brown, black, which symbolized work and sweat as did the color of my gi from white to black. Now recognized as the grandfather in my system I still only wear a black belt.
My Kung-Fu teacher said belts are a way to pull up your pants.
Where I train judo we’re basically divided into coloured belts and white belts and white belts are told to ask coloured belts anything. It’s assumed the things a white belt is interested in are going to be basic throws and groundwork, how to fall and stuff about competitions which anyone with a coloured belt will know enough about
SOUNDS LIKE RACISM TO ME!!!! 🤔
Separating Whites from the Blacks?
This is why I like boxing. You know you’re improving when you can actually fight
First of all, the greatest participation trophy I've ever getting forgetting my ass kicked for 5 years was getting my purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu I think belts mean different things to different people. I also believe that belts are more of an individual thing and you are responsible for the worth of said belt also, I would like to mention that you having a higher ranking belt does not necessarily make you better than anyone else
Personally I do like the reward system that belts give but I do agree with all the points you have made. Personally I think some of the problem is the media perception of black belts being badasses.
I do wonder whether a system like the scout badges would work better, while there are levels they don't inform hierarchy and there are also specific badges based on what you did to achieve that level.
Huh... Scout badges aren't a bad idea... That could actually give people chances to show off their specialties. I'll have to think about that idea, but I definitely like where you're going with this!
@@ArmchairViolence A more conventional approach might be having different stripes depending on how you got them competing, teaching, being able to demonstrate all variations of an armbar or a bit of everything.
though I can see the argument to just avoid belts entirely to remove the cultural connotations.
@@Matt90Nine I was thinking of it slightly differently. I was thinking that the badges could go on a large belt or sash that you wouldn't normally wear when practicing. It would basically be your martial arts resume, because each badge would have a specific requirement. That way they wouldn't even have to be sewn onto anything. It could be velcro, for all I care lol.
Plus, I was thinking you wouldn't get badges for techniques, just accomplishments. For example, competition badges could be "compete in a tournament," "win a match," "win a match via submission," "win a tournament," etc. Coaching badges could be "teach your first class," "corner one of your students in a match," "teach 100 classes," etc.
Nerd badges could be "demonstrate 100 different submissions," "demonstrate 20 armbar variations," etc.
(These are all just examples off the top of my head. Some of them might suck.)
I think the point of the badges should be to show your specialty. If you want to be a jack-of-all-trades, getting a bunch of low level badges can be done. But harder badges like "win a major championship," or "demonstrate 5000 distinct moves" can probably only be done if you're a specialist. That way, looking at someone's badges can show your their career trajectory. Also, this allows the badges to be more objective but not TOO numerous.
The number of badges WOULD create a hierarchy, but it would be a way more specific hierarchy. If you had 500 badges, but literally all of them were for competition, and none were for coaching or knowledge, I would know what questions to ask you, and what to ask someone else.
I think the hard part is figuring out what all the badges would be for, to make a logical system.
Also, I do see the problem with not wearing the badges all the time, so people wouldn't immediately know your resume unless you showed them. But it's still an interesting idea worth exploring.
@@ArmchairViolence Yeah I think you explained my idea way better than I did.
Direct-to-garment printing on rash guards or uniforms could solve the issue of pulling off badges, though it does have a high start up cost would not be that cost prohibitive for a club to buy.
Also I think it is worth noting that hierarchy often still exists even without belts. Guys that don't compete will often be written of despite having vast knowledge(I know this used to happen to icy mike when he started youtube).Though belts do make the hierarchy worse.
@@locky7443 I don't think direct-to-garment printing is viable because each new badge collected will have to be specially printed on, and a lot of people have a bunch of different gis, so you'd have to print it on all of them. It would create a massive amount of hassle trying to get everything printed.
Plus, I kind of like the idea that you don't get to wear your accomplishments all the time. It gives you positive reinforcement, but also stops you from showing it off 24/7.
There's always going to be some hierarchy involved in everything. And hierarchy isn't bad, as long as we rank people in specific categories. Disregarding people that haven't competed can happen but, unfortunately, that's just human nature sometimes lol
This is your best video and l
I agree with everything you say.
Enjoy the objective views you share and seems to me belt systems are two sides of the same coin. I guess it just depends on what side it lands on.
At my bjj gym, my coach said that no one is guaranteed a black belt or any belt in his class. You have to, not only make enough classes, but also show improvement and a certain level of understanding and execution of technique to get another rank.
I'm a "1.5" Dan in WT TKD. In general I agree, particularly for kids.. the belt system is a way to keep them going and parents are literally paying for a Black Belt when they sign up. I think adults take it a lot more seriously... particularly since we have to fight through a lot more injuries. We also try to get the most out of the program since we know the cost of NOT being able to defend ourselves. The forms, kicks and expectations also get more challenging the higher rank in Dan you go. We do have to demonstrate proficiency. Some other arts such as BJJ have more combat induced qualifications, and to say you are Golden Gloves in Boxing means something too. All Masters are also not created equal, there are some however that I know which I would absolutely not want to face in true combat.
Whats your opinion about russian marcial arts like Sambo or Systema??
Sambo is pretty good.
Systema is REALLY bad lol
You typically can find who to ask after one lesson regardless of belt or no belt.