Hey Brian, long time lurker here. Just wanted to say that I could not be more grateful for your maturity and levelheadedness when addressing the community. Your videos are a treat to watch, gameplay, commentary and humour alike. Thanks! And, of course, smoke em if you got'em bosh pack
22:36 in my experience, rule zero really doesn’t work. It’s not even that people are disingenuous (though that can be the case), it’s that people are not honest with themselves or are delusional or just have a bias with their own deck construction. Basically, I’ve had a lot of failed rule 0 conversations, and I’m not a person who is scared of conflict or tough conversations or anything. I’m a freakin lawyer, I do that stuff all day. But Rule 0 requires all parties to have a consistent view of the target power, a shared view of the power of a certain deck, and an honest representation of a deck by the deck’s constructor. I just think it’s an unrealistic system and it harkens back to a time of commander when it was a small, kitchen table format. But that’s not what it is anymore. As always. Thanks for the great content!
I agree. Rule 0 works great if you're playing with a consistent play group. But that doesn't seem to be the norm anymore. Most people playing EDH are doing it at LGSs, college clubs, Magic Cons, or other public gathering like that (or online) and that's where R0 breaks down. And like you said, it's not always because of "Spike the Pubstomper Jerk" rolled up, sometimes it's just people not realizing their 7/10 deck is a lot worse or better than the other 7/10 decks at the table.
@@villanx1I hate how players can’t threat assess powerful cards, vs powerful synergies. Being targeted by the table because a has turn 1 mana crypt or sol ring but greedy kept and has no land drops makes 0 sense. Target the snowballers lol😂, not the player discarding to hand size
@@villanx1 I highly highly doubt most people playing edh are doing it at an lgs and think that’s a very far fetched assumption. Usually people have friends that play or their own pods, not to mention thinks like spelltable and mtgo exist
My normal pod does not rule zero the way I've seen elsewhere. We've all played together at the same table for 5-10 years, rotating a player or two depending on who's busy or whatever. We know what decks everyone in the pod plays. We have an understanding when a new deck is built it will have been as highly tuned as it can be. Our "rule zero" comes down to "Okay what deck you playing?" Other regulars to the store knows what our table is about and joins with no issue, they pull out their high powered deck. Sometimes a new player joins and I do feel bad when they say "upgraded pre-con." and we try and power down or pull punches, but they've always been good sports about it and just want to play a game caring little if they win. The only time we've seen a person rage on us; we learned he does that in EVERY store in the county. tl;dr My pod is mostly friends who like to play level 9-10 decks together on Fridays for a few hours.
First 3-4 minutes already show why yours is the best MtG channel. Only you could say this and open a video like this. Dry, sober and rational and yet funny.
Just listening to BoshNRoll laying down the ground rules for the conversation I just want to stand and applaud. Way to encourage respect and civility in this crazy internet world.
20:00 'nobody asked for black lotus but just your commander' i've seen several custom cards to that effect, i think lots of people have thought of every version of 'black lotus but'. and wizards should have known from all the historical examples not to print black lotus. you can talk about the 'clarity of designing the game for thirty years' but they're printing more format breakers every year - it seems like what they're clear on is how to get money from whales, not how to make the game enjoyable. of course rule 0 doesn't work and never worked, especially in public settings. the notion of rules is to solve disputes between players and not create more of them. it's not a 'rule' if what it says is that everyone at the table has to come to an arbitrary agreement about which otherwise similar cards are morally acceptable or not.
It's been up and down. I know this take is ice-cold, but I think the supplemental product is the problem. Pioneer, for example, has been extremely stable and fair to such a degree as to be lackadaisical since the combo banning, but it seems like every other format has been constantly on fire throughout this entire period. The main distinction, I think, is the supplementary product.
@@alecwoodard9464 i don't think jumpstart or battlebond were problems, i know conspiracy created some controversies but is now a valued part of eternal formats... lotr, pushed to hell, has approximately one objectionable card, at least that i can think of... nothing from fallout or warhammer is close to taking a ban... i want to finely delineate, there are big problems with wotc design which is cropping up in sets designed specifically for modern and commander, or for the 'power level' of those formats. i think having to live in standard helps keep some bad design tendencies in check, but does exacerbate, for example, the amount of text on cards.
@@obsid2h888 when they say "supplemental product", they actually mean "specifically designed to be attractive (more than pushed, hopefully not broken enough to get banned, but it's ok if it eventually is) to commander players, so they'll buy and open pack." Warhammer and Fallout are both sealed decks with known lists, then collectors boosters for alternate treatments only, no chase mythic rules text. LotR only needed exactly one pushed card to sell packs, exactly how only Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus will sell packs of the sets they're in. And LotR also has Orcish Bowmasters, in addition to The One Ring. Set-deck-list products don't have chase cards in them, there's no chase if you can just buy the product.
@@alecwoodard9464 The problem is the shift in focus from designing for formats that rotate vs eternal formats. When WotC was designing for Standard, they had the advantage of any card that is problematic being only ever a temporary problem for most players. Now however, they are designing cards primarily for an eternal format. Like it or not, the Commander format is a turn-3/4 format, if you go off of the ban list (like Wizards does). Cards that are good at getting around a couple threats and gaining immediate value just don't hold up in the EDH environment, they just don't provide enough value for the cost. For a card to be good in Commander it needs to be designed for long, drawn out, snowball fights through 120 life and 3 board states -- or more 'value over time.' Why would I ever spend 3 mana to draw 2 one time, when I could spend 3 mana to draw every time someone else breathes until they decide to remove my enchantment? Supplemental product isn't the reason why other formats are crumbling. It's the fact that other formats get crushed by the sheer amount of value a 'commander focused card design' can provide. Look at YuGiOh. It started like Magic, durdly and simple. But because all the old cards are still around, the new ones need to be "better/cooler/stronger/more unique" or they won't sell. So over time, YuGiOh has become a 1-turn game. The cards all just got too good. The reprinting of Black Lotus in the form of "Jeweled Lotus" is proof of this beginning to happen in Magic. A card that was so broken that it's been completely banned in all formats and restricted in the single most powerful one, would NEVER have even been considered for reprinting, in ANY iteration, in the past when Standard was the primary format. But after the shift to Commander? Those old, hyper-pushed, concept cards from Magic's infancy don't look quite as strong now that Timetwister is legal, huh...? Prepare to see a whole lot more of these turbo-busted cards. Downsides are a thing of the past.
Two things: 1) I'm genuinely glad you're getting so much content out of this. The shorts were hilarious 2) Setting ground rules like that in the start is a good idea. Lets keep all discussion about it civilized, regardless of if we agree on things or not.
Brian, thank you for being such a reasonable human. Even with these bans hitting you personally, im glad you weren't one of the reactionary people who let that alone decide their thoughts. Seriously a pillar of, at least my, magic experience and community
21:58 Sorry, that's not what everyone at a table when power levels didn't match was doing. People were stomping, and sometimes I think they were genuinely unaware of the power of what they were doing.
As a every once in awhile at my local shop edh player I can attest to mixed results with rule 0. I think rule 0 works when youre at a table with people who want to have fun first and winning is a happy occassion. Some of my best memories playing edh are games where i lost. Unfortunately i think a lot of people tie their self worth to winning
Some people sadly just have shitty lives and shitty jobs and just enjoy pubstomping new players and winning every game is how they feel good about themselves
22:00 Hey. We have a small community here in Prague about 50 people and even here the Rule 0 doesn't work. There's always some salty people. And it's not like we don't know each other and yet, Rule 0 doesn't work for us. "you didn't tell me you do this thing", "this isn't this power level", "I can't deal with this and you didn't tell me". Used to own many commander decks but this got me out now I have one just for occasions.
Cards designed specifically for commander should have never happened. Commander should never be a consideration for WotC. It was far better before they started meddling
It is and was inevitable. It's wizard's job to design cards people want/want to play with, and to sell them to those people. Commander is by far the most played constructed form of magic, and is the largest source of people buying magic cards. There never was or even could be anything different.
agreed but the did make some really cool cards. deadly rollick and the likes. lotus was a mistake even jlk told wizards not to print it. the best part of commander was finding weird card yhat said each opponent or all players and going wild with cards that would not even see play in other formats. now every set is commander with a few that fit into the other formats. sort of sad and mostly bad for other formats. I there haven't even been a standard game night at either of the stores were I live since 2022. and pioneer has been maybe 1 year. it's only modern and commander.
On the bit about rule 0: I think there's tension between talking about how rule 0, not bannings, is the place for fast mana to be handled, and also talking about this taking money out of people's collections. I do agree that rule 0's where this ought to be handled-- in an ideal world every game would play that stuff solely by the players involved's preferences, and the ban list wouldn't even matter for anything but cEDH. But in that world, prices wouldn't be affected by a banning except to whatever extent they're affected by cEDH, since casual players wouldn't have any different level of demand for the card at all. We'll see how things shake out, but it seems to me like prices are going to drop in a type of way that indicates people in practice really just don't follow rule 0 all that much, and banning with respect to casual gameplay actually is a good move, even if maybe in an ideal world it wouldn't be. So I guess I'm squaring this circle by saying "yep, rule 0 is basically fake, it's good advice but not advice people are good at taking"
It would be really nice if Rule 0 was effective, but it is in practice pretty exclusionary. Like I've said across the thread, expecting discussions like this to be resolved at the table makes it difficult for women, people in marginalized groups, and even white guys who don't like conflict to feel able to engage in the discussion. I think as enfranchised Magic players who are generally reasonable and empathetic people - and used to arguing over triggers - it can be difficult to see those problems, but it doesn't make them less important to the game's long term health.
@@domotoroOfficial For sure! It's not a helpful idea for game stores and larger events, but it's a great idea if you have a consistent and/or lightly rotating pod.
The problem with fast mana is that the idea appeals during building decks but is only ever fun for the player that draws it. It was destined to be banned, and the longer the band aid of ignoring the problem stayed on, the more it was going to hurt. I'm glad it happened now and not after more versions were printed, as clearly Wizards would keep doing it periodically.
For me the thing about rule zero is that it’s easier to allow an exception than enforce a local ban. Almost every week I play against a unique lineup from a pool of around 40 commander players. With that many players it is really hard to rule 0 bans but very easy to rule 0 exceptions. No one wants to sit down at the table and tell people what they can’t play and organizing that many people to get an official band list together is unrealistic and overly time consuming. It also puts added friction on players joining the group or learning Magic. Now they have to be informed of secondary LGS or pod bannings. There is also the question of what to do if they don’t adhere to or agree with the ban? I think it just leads to socially awkward situations. It’s much easier to have a conversation saying “I’m playing this banned card. Is that OK?”. Most of the time people will be fine with it and also it can give an indication of the table about the power level of your deck. I think these bans are super great for the health of the format. So appreciative of the RC for taking action.
I'm actually a Delta marine that makes Rambo look like Homer Simpson, and when I'm not covered in sexy naked models that crave my man-meat or dishing out extreme violence in the name of preserving freedom, I ridicule MTG players in very specific and informed ways, not that I play MTG, but nonetheless I mock their lack of manliness
I agree that Mana Crypt's ban was a bad call, in terms of execution and community impact. However, I can't say the same for Jeweled Lotus. The card was predatory and of poor design for the format, and we're all better off without it. The financial losses for it suck, but those financials were more-or-less facilitated by WotC, who reprinted it only once and dangled it as a chase card. It just felt like Wizards artificially imposing staples and a meta onto EDH, filling a hole that didn't exist and suckering players into buying packs. Why it stayed legal for as long as it did is a mystery to me, but I'm happy to see it go.
I talked about these bans in a twitter thread, a bit on my podcast with Trinket Mage, and also I'm releasing a video today about Sol Ring about why it dodged a ban (at least from a casual lens). But I suppose I'll drop a thing here because I legit find these bans so interesting to talk about. I am not into using proxies much like you, for much the same reason! Also not anti-proxy, I don't like money being a gate for people to have a reason to get out and play games with others. It is no secret that losing money SUCKS, we've surely all felt it before, so don't take this as me rubbing salt in a wound but I am legitimately very happy to see people say "this has shaken my confidence in collecting" as a "gotcha." It honestly makes me happy to hear this. I think it's not a good mindset to have an expectation of a "cash out" about a card game. All money you put into magic cards you should consider GONE, you should not spend money you don't have expecting to have the chance to "break the piggy bank" as it were. I will still buy magic cards even after this ban, multi-hundred dollar decks, I've always been buying cards with the expectation that I would not get the money I spent back. Money out of the way, these bans make me a little scared for cEDH since remora/rhystic already owns the format and these accelerators (especially dockside) being banned makes rhystic/remora that much stronger. From a casual perspective I love these bans as someone who would see crypt/lotus every 5 games or so to much groaning of the table. "What about sol ring?" Sol ring is stronger than crypt, but is also the cheaper card as you said it is super cheap. Also the point of the ban as they mentioned wasn't to ERADICATE the games where 5 mana happens on turn 2-3 but to reduce the frequency. They literally say "we aren't trying to eliminate fast starts." Anyway, the rule 0 argument also goes both ways, you can just rule 0 crypt back into your coinflip deck or your cedh deck and its honestly better that way than the rule 0 it out argument. Honestly, all in all, I hope that this means we'll get less jeweled lotuses. I hope people spend more carefully. I can't really comment on the tinfoil hat stuff besides the fact that it certainly doesn't look good that mana crypt was banned same year we got a chase reprint of it RC connected to wotc or not. Overall though I am happier than I am sad about the bans, also play cube.
I would reconsider whether one should celebrate the loss in confidence. In commander's defining philosophy document, they clearly state that a core tenet of the format is to be STABLE. I think in a way, these high card prices were not intended to be some sort of lower risk parallel to building a stock portfolio, but a vote of confidence in how the format was maintained, and its stability as a projected long-term hobby. Just because a card is expensive does not mean people also associate it with a confident investment, as is clearly seen in other formats. Players do not cite a confidence in collecting regarding powerful cards just because they view magic as an investment, but moreso that the confidence that the community no longer feels used to be part of commander's brand and identity.
Elk, the point which Boshnroll raises in the video is that the collectors and store owners who are affected monetarily by this ban are subsidizing the game. He asks, how can you consider yourself a member of the community if you are happy at the misfortune of the stakeholders and LGS's who prop the game up? I don't think your comment properly addresses this but I'm eager to hear your full thoughts in your upcoming video. Personally, I have a lot of problems with his rationalization here because he's leading towards the argument that "you are not allowed to be uncomfortable with capitalism if you participate in it." It's a fallacious false equivalency. And it's the kind of argument a person who is heavily monetarily invested would make.
cannot agree more that people shouldn’t be expecting to make money back out of their hobby. I would even extend this to tournament entry fees: I personally pay them expecting the fee to be a price to play a few rounds in a fun tournament setting, and if I win it’s gravy.
@@domotoroOfficial My rationale is that of they wanted to cash out, they had a shot already. If the ban had happened later, the same thing would have been said. It's like the parable of the horseowning farmer. It went that the farmer was poor and wanted to feed his horse as little as possible to dave money, so he cuts the rice portion slightly every day until he's feeding the horse like a fistful of rice, then the horse drops dead and the farmer says "Darn, just as I was about to find out the right amount". The farmer here should have stopped when the horse started looking worse for wear, or he had cut the rations in half, before he was left with no horse. This is the same. If they wanted to cash out, they should have.
Great video, great discussion, a lot of good points overall. I have something to add regarding what you said around 45:50. You were discussing the idea of a some kind of warning that Lotus and Crypt were going to be banned. From what I understood, you came to the conclusion that the Rules Committee couldn't really warn anyone (because of risks of leaks, insider trading and so on). I think there still were ways to soften the blow. Basically, the problem is that these bans seem to surprise everyone, when there was high confidence in the fact that Lotus and Crypt were here to stay. To soften the blow, they could have tailored communication, over a couple months, to weaken that confidence. For example, if they had spared a paragraph under the last couple "no ban changes" announcements in which they listed half a dozen specific accelerators which they were looking at closely (say, Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault, Dockside, Dark Ritual, Jeska's Will, and a couple more), they would have shaken confidence in the fact that all of these were here to stay. Basically this would have informed the public that some of these were not forever safe, lessening the blow. Another thing they could have done is purposefully spreading rumors on social media. Random anonymous accounts, falsely claiming that x or y is going to get banned at a given date, or more subtle types of comments. It's an operation, it's not necessarily all that easy to coordinate, but it would be effective. My point isn't that they had super mega easy ways to avoid keeping this announcement under wraps completely. Rather, I just think that there were things which could have been done to soften the blow, without necessarily risking insider trading scandals or the like. I'm mainly commenting on a technicality of the way they could have logistically prepared and anticipated the consequences of such a dramatic announcement. I'm not exposing opinions on the broader implications of it all, I don't trust my gut enough for that.
It's wild online discourse has gotten to a place where ban list updates in Magic need disclaimers like this.These updates have occurred for longer than most of the people trolling have been alive.
You are brilliant with the way that you articulated with what I could not with a bunch of people. This is the first video of yours that I have had the privilege of watching. I will be watching more. You also touched on the anger that many of us are feeling on either side of the argument with the ban. Thank you.
4 minutes in and BoshnRoll makes a reference to the BBC World Service. Whether it’s pop culture references, music references, or a reference to one of my primary sources of news, I find myself, time and again, thinking BoshnRoll is just a really cool dude. Thanks for being an awesome steward of the MTG community man!
If only Normal Island Domestic was half as based as World Service. I usually listen to DemoNow or NPR, because of how much the World Service team has to toe the transphobia line due to domestic UK issues, but it's a good station all around.
Your introduction is one of the reasons I love your videos so much, you have such a compassionate approach to everything and you try to encourage people to think and act with kindness
really wonderful monolog on the subject. Appreciate your thoroughly thoughtful perspectives and being so articulate in describing the views in depth. thank you for contributing this to the community.
To be fair, the point they made for mana crypt could be held for sol ring BUT mana crypt gives acced to 3 mana T1 with a colored one. That makes T1 Rhystic study way more likely or other crazy things. On its own, sol ring doesn't enable much on turn 1 besides another rock. Now I think sol ring should be banned as well given the reasons they mentioned but I cannot put it on the same level as crypt.
This is the best RUclips video I’ve watched in the last few days about the bans (and I watched a lot of them). I particularly enjoyed your ground rules (reason is in short supply these days). Thank you for your balanced perspective (both casual, cEDH, and collector’s perspectives). The stories behind Nadu and Olivia from the Rules committee were also very interesting so thanks for sharing!
This has to been one of the best videos about this topic, level-headed arguments and opinions. I really appreciate your vision in this kind of topics (as someone pretty new into magic), thanks for all your work!
There's been so much chaos over the last few days,. It's really nice to sit down and hear someone have a considered reasonable opinion, rather than just screaming into the void.
1:05:41 the idea that magic players couldn't handle the reserve list being removed is disappointing. I'm in the camp of get rid of it. I'm cool with my expensive cards being reprinted, but i buy to collect because i like exactly that version, and i like it at that price. I'll feel bad if that version goes down because there is a new cheaper/cooler version, but thats just collecting
Great video with some fantastic points. I've always kept pretty close to the minimum number of these higher priced non-RL cards (6x Wasteland, 5x FoW, 1x Mana Crypt, 1x Mana Vault, 1x Dockside, 1x Jeweled Lotus, etc.) and then proxied additional copies if I wanted to spread these across multiple decks.
17:20 I think what happened with Voja is that commander players play wraths, but they don't normally play that many and Voja if they got off to a good start without lotus basically required a wrath on turn 4. so, in the casual mindset if you saw Voja across the table you had to hope you drew one of your 3ish wraths by then. However, Voja never really played lotus. they just played elfball. Really, I think where jeweled lotus was a problem however was in decks like Niv Mizzet Parun or tatyova or any of the hundreds of value engine commanders in casual circles. Where you could take advantage of the fact that plenty of casual decks are removal light and get tons of advantage. Basically, in casual, jeweled lotus helped power out a lot of nongames thanks to bad deckbuilding practices.
To add on, not disagree: the social aspect comes in too. Commander players can get... touchy... when their stuff gets removed, maybe more so when it gets countered. I prefer to play at tables that develop norms of sucking it up, but many tables don't roll like that, and playing a high wrath count or countering a commander is considered bad manners. At a table like that, Voja is a crazy apex predator; it kind of weaponizes the social norms of commander, basically daring opponents to do a frowned-upon thing or lose quickly to the big board and full hand it creates if you don't respond to it in one of those two ways.
@venerable_vole i play at a lot of similar tables, but I would like to add further that if you're not playing blue, finding enough board wipes to deal with a voja deck consistently can be problematic. Sure, you only need one board wipe, but lots of board wipes are symmetrical, meaning if you're playing a bunch of them in games, it can end up dragging out. People understandably find this annoying, so glass cannon all in strategies in general can be a bit volatile at casual tables. Sometimes, you don't draw the out and lose.Voja is just the biggest offender because of that ward limiting potential counterplay further.
@@venerable_vole in my experience it's less about being touchy and more about "unnecessarily" prolonging the games. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but I can see where it comes from.
You’re an inspiring presence in the Magic community, and over the time I’ve spent consuming your content ive consistently admired you more and more Bosh, thanks for being an amazing human and a wonderful pillar in the community
I should make a "5 mana on Turn 2" Commander deck now after these bans. It would still be really easy to do. There's quite literally a half a dozen other ways to make it happen: Land-Exploration-Land-Sol Ring; Land-Lotus Petal-Exploration-Land-Arcane Signet-Sol Ring (that one's 6 mana on turn-2 after your next land drop); Land-Sol Ring-Grim Monolith (That one's 7 mana on turn-2 with your next land drop); Land-Sol Ring-Lotus Petal-Dark Ritual (that one's 5 mana on turn-1); Mox Opal, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Diamond Lion, Fellwar Stone, Lotus Blossom, Aether Vial, Mind Stone, Literally any mana-dork, this list goes on -- that was just off the top of my head. Yes, this is all Magical Christmas Land, but that seems to be where they're pulling these, "5 mana on turn-2 is way too strong so we need to get rid of these 2 specific mana rocks guys" bans from so.... sue me. The arguments put forth for banning Mana Crypt, could be used to argue for the banning of every card that accelerates mana in any way, or to put *their* argument more simply, "all ramp cards should be banned." I would be willing to bet money that not one person formerly on the CRC still owned any copies of Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt in their collections as of September 22nd, 2024.
I have to say I appreciate this perspective but I have a problem with the idea that something should be banned but the RC are afraid to ban it because of the financial fallout that can create problems. I am not speaking about these bans in particular, I am saying in general if a card is deemed a problem but it is over $200 and they decide not to ban it because of the financial backlash and fallout then that is a problem.
This was a great listen. A lot of thoughts you mention in your conclusion are similar to ones I had that kept me from getting more into Magic when I was first introduced. I started in Zendikar but had friends who played since 5th. It always felt like I would have to spend an egregious amount to invest into playing the game and my collection would always be more volatile than their older collections.
It may not be a Mana Crypt vs. Sol Ring argument, but a Mana Crypt plus Sol Ring problem. Yes, Sol Ring gives you the same benefit but if your hand has both you are far more likely to win the game. I have seen people try to Mulligan down to 5 or 4 to get that hand. If you have just Sol Ring (which everyone has) it levels out the format. This is especially true in casual.
Just started watching your channel because of me designing and printing proxies to play kitchen table vintage and I agree with all your said. Best wishes from Mexico brother player
Bang on. Two weeks ago my 16 yr old had just liquidated his Pokeman collection and bought an Ixalan Mana Crypt. He’s left sour on the game. Tough lesson for a kid on portfolio diversification. WoTC has lost us as collectors and now we will treat cards as game pieces only. Proxies for expensive cards are now our go to.
ive decided to sell anything over 10 and order proxies of those ones i have in decks, not worth getting burned, even though they say they plan no more bans
Disgusting that this is even possible in this game. Tough lesson about portfolio diversification? To play a card game? Shame. This game is for rich scummers.
did he buy it to play it or as an "investment" as you call it. if its the latter then why wouldnt you get him to buy reserved list cards if its the former it sucks alot but when i was 16 i had an entire modern deck banned, its part of the game unfortunatly
I think the argument of Mana Crypt against Sol Ring holds weight in the sense that everyone can have the latter, while the former is much more scarce and makes it a more probable lopsided advantage. You’re much more likely to draw your second Sol Ring when you have it in your deck. Not a lot of people can afford to have one, but the vast majority of decks could be improved by adding that card, which isn’t true with every expansive card there is. The argument behind the banning of Moxes was much similar, where they’d be easy inclusions in any deck without being as opressive as other P9 cards, but it would make the cost of entry explode. At some points, we could see similar bannings for the original duals which are 2X-3X more expensive now than they were 10 years ago. At some point they just become prohibitively expensive while being auto-includes in 99% of multicolor decks.
My only critique is what you said about MTG cards aren't treated like stocks. The financial side of these cards have been predicated on the demand for these cards. And that directly affects a card's financial value. This is very similar to how stocks in the stock market operate. So I do agree with the majority of what you presented in this video. But I think it's time to admit that yes these cards are treated very much like stock brokers evaluating stocks.
On the Sol Ring topic, I believe that their intention is/was to reduce the prevalence of explosive starts in EDH. Sol Ring provides this gas at $0.50 (oftentimes free), whereas getting a second version of this effect was $200 in Mana Crypt. The choice seems obvious if they're merely mitigating explosive starts and not removing them entirely, though there's conversation to be had if the choice needed to be made in the first place...
He means in direct correlation with the whole “5 mana on turn 2” play patterns, and that the card is so obviously just 1 mana mana crypt and the whole format is supported by a “slightly” worse mana crypt
45:57 info seemingly did leak out from it though. Sources approached several content creators claiming mana crypt would be banned in late September. Where they obtained it, who knows, but it is oddly specific. Which makes sense as they said they have been discussing these bans for over a year. Many people have left wotc since then.
I had one deck that was devastated by the JLo and Mana Crypt bans. I don't even really play them unfairly - I just love my big, dumb colorless artifact deck with an Eldrazi top end.
@@atmaximum I mean, I was annoyed at the announcement, but not financially. I can recover. I can modify the deck. I was given one of my mana crypts. I opened the others in packs. I bought my Jeweled Lotus when it was first released and wasn't yet all that expensive.
@2:31 based and boshpilled. entirely seriously i knew you were a great person already but this is a fantastic intro and i am always happy to know that i contribute to your patreon even if its a small amount. excited to hear the actual ban analysis but just wanted to acknowledge. anyway back to smoking on that ban pack smoke em if you got em
The bans dont break any of my decks but fast mana has never been the annoying factor of explosive decks. id much rather weather a mana crypt explosive start than 1 more thassa oracle dexk that goldfishes for 30 min looking for its line.
Well presented and level headed, thanks for being objective and fair. This was 'soothing' to watch...if that even makes any sense...the last few days have been an emotional roller-coaster for many. Cheers from New Zealand.
Jeweled Lotus should have never been printed, full stop. It was clearly broken, it was printed to be clearly broken, and the RC should have banned the card before it saw the light of day
@@calebporter6237Never played a game of EDH or cEDH, but even I know Jeweled Lotus doesn't just make black mana AND it costs zero making this comparison mute.
Bingo. You described exactly my financial situation. I hustled for my jeweled lotuses and crypts and did the “trade up” from my tournament wins. I own duals now and there’s something about losing those mid-level “big trade ups” that crushes my soul this week that people who just took out a credit card don’t seem to get. 😢
My casual playgroup has none of the banned cards available to them. We only play at the kitchen table where its more comfortable. We buy from tcgplayer marketplace without differentiating one store from another. None of us thought of owning any one of the banned cards either given how expensive they were (and remain.) We are not some unenfrancised players either. Most of us having played for over a decade. We collect cards in most smaller quantities and at lower prices and power levels. What I am saying is, these rules changes were not for us and won't affect us in the slightest.
Just want to say that the intro to this video is probably the most level headed and respectable response to this situation. Thank you for being a voice of reason with what, at the end of the day, is just cardboard. Much love.
I sympathize with the money people lost in this but there is a big problem. If people are treating, probably correctly so, magic cards as an investment then you can’t have your cake and eat it too. All investments go up and down and crash and if we’re treating cards like stocks we can’t be mad when the issues with stocks happen. There are people very heavily impacted by this banning but if we use the excuse to never ban expensive cards then we are forfeiting gameplay for people who just want numbers to go up.
The Magic Historian hit the nail on the head about Sol ring staying…it would have made all pre packaged commander product contain a banned card. No way WotC lets that go.
I really felt the emotional part of this video. As a regular watcher of the channel who hasn't actually played the game in quite a while but who has opened a jeweled lotus on a Christmas commander legend box the part of the video where you were narrating the unboxing had me shed a tear. Normal videos usually show the witty, funny side of Bosh, but this was a true show of heartwarming humanity.
Make Cedh Great Again! ✊️ I recommend everyone to hold on to Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus, if you see yourself playing Cedh in the future. It's interesting to think that Cedh might be its own official format. If that happens, the ban cards prices should correct and also mana vault will also stay expensive because it's edh demand.
Your level-headedness and clarity in what you want to say in your videos is why you've become my favourite MtG content creator. The reaction some people have had to the ban has been appalling and, as I stopped playing commander myself a long time ago, I'm glad to get such a well-measured explanation of the situation from someone who is deeply invested in it. You also make a very good point in why this is upsetting for non-cedh players as well; Jeweled Lotus must be the most pump-and-dump card printed so far and sets an awful precedent.
I understand that a lot of people lost a lot of money (as well as "pride of the collection" emotional value) and I also understand feeling somewhat scammed given that wizards likely knew they were selling low half-life staples last year (which is really scummy on their part), but where you lose me is when you say that the ban shouldn't have happened because of it even though it's a good thing for gameplay. Is the implication of that just that past mistakes of game design don't get to be fixed because they are worth money now? Of course it would have been better if jeweled lotus was never printed or banned in 2020/2021 or if mana crypt (and sol ring for that matter) were banned along with the moxen when the format was invented, but we are here now and I personally don't think that the collectible aspect of the game should ever take precedent over the actual gameplay.
Heya Brian, do you have a video showing your casual commander decks at their different power levels? I love your legacy content, but I think that'd be really sweet to see too, to hear you nerd out about different casual commander decks
This was a very well done video that covers a lot of angles and promotes an understanding of the facts, what happened, what can happen in the future, etc. I'm a very new player, relatively to magic (started end of 2018) and I have never understood the appeal of commander as someone who loves 40 and 60 card formats (yorion can have a mention i guess). Despite me being unaffected by these bans, I do really feel sorry for everyone who has ever dedicated hours of their life in order to earn money to afford a center piece sought after card for a game they enjoy. Confidence in the game should not be overlooked as a concept, and I think we can all agree that this hurts the people who care most, who do actually invest time and money to play the game.
I read the comments on Hareruya's video on this to see what Japanese people thought about it. It was certainly a lot less chaotic. One major point that they brought up is the optics argument for why the power 9 were banned. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were seen as expensive staples needed in order to buy onto the format, and this ban would make the format more accessible to newer players. The sentiment of lost value was there, but nowhere near the level of not wanting to play the game anymore.
Yeah, when the OG Moxes were banned they could be bought for a little over $400. Mana Crypt is close to 300 now. And you can say 2011 dollars isnt 2024 dollars, but we're firmly in the same ball park now. Its an honest emotion to have for new players to see a big turn happen on the back of Mana Crypt, and being like, what the hell? Do I have to spend $600 on my deck or play for 3 years before I can win.
I want to discuss a viewpoint I hold in relation to these bans. I strongly feel that Wizards (or at least Hasbro) fully agrees with you (Brian) in regards to the bans. They have built a basis on selling packs by including these cards. Having chase cards isn't by any means problematic, but the entire game has been built on these 2 cards for what feels like years now. This isn't healthy for the game long term. Wizards was all too likely to keep doing this by printing a new way-too-strong card every few years to use as a way to sell packs until they print the new ones. This move by the rules committee breaks that pattern and tells wizards "we won't just leave any card you make intentionally busted to sell packs" means wizards has to care more about the health of the format in what cards they print. They won't be able to print things like a black lotus for commander only going forward. This to me is a ripping the bandaid off situation. I lose money in my collection too, but this feels so much like a situation where after the initial pang of pain, I feel more free. If another jeweled lotus style card gets printed, I guarantee it won't be as expensive because people will understand that it can be banned. This to me is cutting off the foot to save the rest of the body.
Great video, great intro. Sorry you have had to deal with people hating in the comments. keep doing what you do man. We all need to be just a little bit nicer in the world.
Really good video. On that last cEDH friends topic, I would encourage you to check out the commander variant Conquest. No RL, different overall banlist, 12 commander damage, no sol ring. Pretty fun for competitive play while also being better for casual. Very popular in Brazil.
Thanks for being one of the most level-headed responses out there. I only agree with about half of the opinions here, but I appreciate how you presented all of them.
Oh man, just from the intro, it's obvious the negativity and harassment thrown around. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, even when you weren't involved with the decision. I can't imagine how much hate the people involved have received. Hope they are doing okay.
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
I find this to be an atrocious play pattern. Say "decent" is a pretty basic $100 card list or $15 upgraded precon.in this scenario. A "detuned" Chulane Advisor Tribal pEDH still just shits on every single decent deck. A "tuned" mono blue Crab tribal with the fast mana and tutors... also just shits on any decent deck. In Chulane, you have a deck with a lower ceiling but extremely high floor relative to the opponents it plays. In crab tribal, you have a deck with extremely higher ceilings relative to the opponents.
Disregarding all the other arguments because I think they are valid reason to disagree with this ban, I really do not think price of a card should affects its legality. If a card is $0.01 or $1000 it still affects the format the same. If a card costs a lot but makes the format not fun to play, it should still be banned for the health of the format. I get that it sucks to lost a lot of money on a card, but the rules committees job is to balance the format, not to maintain collection prices
I agree. I love my local games stores. I try to play every weekend, but card prices cannot and should not determine if a card is ban worthy. This is a game first. I personally believe card prices like these should have never gotten to this point in the first place. Reprint these to the ground. I agree with a lot of bosh's points (ie: bans all at once, out of nowhere, the double standard on fast mana), but I also I think that someone will always be left holding the bag. Someone is going to lose money on things like this no matter what.
You are definitely right though a card simply shouldn't cost that much. A version of that card obviously can and should but absurd prices simply gatekeep the game. I think what I and a lot of people complain about is that people get super touchy about the commander banlist in the first place. Rule 0 is clearly not enough to balance the game and as somebody that only plays commander as an alternative to my main formats limited and pauper, I enjoy a format that for once isn't entirely competitive and allows for much more player expression. Banning absurdly strong cards like mana crypt will probably lead to more and not less expression so I can't really be unhappy about this. Also played a lot of Centurion/Duel Commander in the past and that format has to ban a lot of cards for the formats health especially with how many absurd cards WotC is printing.
I agree but I believe you also need to look at outside factors jeweled lotus being the prime example. You have a card that people paid 100+ dollars on (for the people who didn’t pull or proxy) and now it’s quite literally unable to played anywhere else in the game, it’s essentially a 100+ dud card. Every other card on this ban list is played in atleast 1 other format. People also knew that jeweled lotus was a problem when it first came out if they wanted to ban it at any time it shouldn’t have been years later after thousands of people bought or pulled the card when other cards like Nadu were banned within 3-6 months.
@@devilbhrothesavage2807 100% you can have your 100+ dollar shiny foil alt art borderless thing, but just make sure that the normal plain one for us not rolling in cash. This is an amazing game. I love modern and legacy, but I have so many friends that literally can't play the game because of the price.
I’m big on the benefit of the doubt. Slightly suspicious timing is not enough to make me suspect the rules committee put off banning these cards. If anything the reprints were likely a large part of the cause for the ban as they introduced more copies of these cards into casual play.
The RC definitely doesn't want to rock the boat. Do they all even have real jobs? Or do they just talk about commander? Because if it is their livelihood they are most definitely working with WoTC.
I will just comment quickly on card prices. I agree that cards need to have value, but we have to admit that card values have become kind of obscene. Im a US resident who has a hard time spending 200$ on a card when i have a house and kids. WOTC has recently figured out a better solution and they need to continue in the trend of High end promos or alt art treatments for expensive cards in my opinion. We shouldn't be expected as players to Pay to Win, when something like Pokemon TCG which is very successful has top tier standard decks for 30-50$. It's honestly insane that one copy of Sheoldred is 75$ for a base printing. They've made the active effort for fetch lands to be affordable while still having high end versions, i just have a hard time stomaching that certain cards are locked behind a pay wall. This wouldn't have been such a big deal imho if something like Crypt or lotus was a 50$ card rather than 100-200. Yes you still lose your value on the premium version, but collectors are still collectors, and if you splurged your 500$ on a crypt it wont lose as much as a normal would do to scarcity. Love your content bosh.
Paying to win is not the issue. The problem is paying to keep up. If one guy decides that legacy banned and vintage restricted Mana Crypt is suitable for your pod then you also have to buy it otherwise he will dunk on you. If people had some common sense and didn't bring cEDH cards into casual pods or random pickup games there wouldn't be any problem.
@@Martin-qb2mw i don't disagree that some people can't seem to grasp the idea that some cards were not made for casual play. Pregame conversations/ rule 0 needs an overhaul, it's crazy how every commander podcast/ show says "we don't play sol ring because it isn't balanced" but you still see one every single game in the real world, not to mention the people who play MLD despite the social stigma.
First time viewer here, just wanted to say that your insight and level-headed approach to such a complex topic have impressed me and that I'm looking forward to discovering more quality content on your channel.
Honestly, all the "just rule 0 it" talk has me wanting to put out a video/write an essay on when/where rule 0 works and what it is. Rule 0 is for established playgroups to customise the game to suit them. IT DOES NOT WORK FOR PICK-UP GAMES AT LGS'S OR CONVENTIONS. The role of the commander banlist is to facilitate better pick-up games by banning the cards players fail to self-select to the appropriate powerlevel. This is why Golos is banned, but Thoracle + Consult is legal. Mana/Value cards tend to be underestimated by casual players, while win the game cards tend to be overestimated.
That's a good summary of the situation with Rule 0. (Casual) EDH is, at its core, a playgroup construction game, like D&D. If you assemble a good playgroup, you will have success playing casual EDH (which is to say you'll have fun). If you don't, you won't. All of that is essentially regardless of the relative power levels of the decks involved. Once you've assembled a good playgroup, Rule 0 is there so you can further tailor the experience to suit the desires/tastes/collections of the group. Sitting down with some random strangers is leaving the core aspect of the format (which, again, is the construction of a good playgroup) to chance. It might work out by chance, and it might not. Rule 0 doesn't change that, it just might make the game a bit more balanced in power level. But it's vastly, vastly more fun to get blown out by one cEDH deck stomping a bunch of precons among a close group of friends who can enjoy the spectacle than it is to play in a pod of four perfectly balanced decks where the opponents don't know how to be reasonable people.
This. Rule 0 only really works for those lucky enough to have a dedicated playgroup full of reasonable people that think similarly to you. What if you can't reliably find 4 people to play with and have to play with people at your LGS? What if you actually have friends to play with, but some people want a high power level and some want low? What if you dont play regularly enough to hammer out a rule 0 banlist?
Eternal Durdles started their podcast with "We play with in a tight-knit group that loves playing non cEDH lists with these cards, so we'll be sad to see them go" which just had me scratching my head.
@@Ivan-Kh Legacy, modern, pioneer and standard is like MMA, tae-kwon-do, judô and box. EDH is professional wrestling, where you're there for the show. cEDH is ppl that think professional wrestling is for real.
a very thorough analysis, good job Brian! I especially liked the tinfoil hat portion, as the website stuff I almost never interact with, so it was extra interesting
A couple of weeks ago at Commandfest Frankfurt my 12yo son opened a Mana Crypt out of a Mystery Booster Pack. The joy in his face was one of the most heartwarming things one could witness. Last monday, when he realized what just happened... The pain and anguish in the same face literally just broke my heart.
I also want to be positive and look forward to the open card slots in my cEDH decks, however, I would caution everyone to remember that crypt, jlo, and probably even dockside need to be replaced with lands or other mana rocks/sources especially if your land count is very slim…
Proxies are an interesting problem. Personally I buy a card and then print and play with proxies so that my actual card is not accidentally lost or damaged. That said if people are in financial duress I think proxies are a great solution. Overall the game is just too expensive. I agree with you though. If you can it’s good to support the game and LGS’s though.
People get weird about it. Personally, I don't care if you proxy. I would play super expensive formats with proxies if I could because I want the experience without the financial stake. But if you want to collect the card game, that's awesome. If you want to only play the card game, that's also awesome. But if either side ridicules the other for wanting to exist, that is something completely different. I think the hardest part is that proxy doesn't really support stores, unless there's a tournament involved.
@@Jordan-dg8tp I think most people who don't proxy really care about other people proxying, but there is a strange group of "Proxy everything" people who play the game even though they also won't shut up about how much they hate the game, and are on a moral crusade to bankrupt wizards of the coast by getting everyone to Proxy cards.
@@Jordan-dg8tp the argument that proxying doesn't support stores is kinda wack, because normally people go to stores and buy sleeves/boxes/snacks when they play to house those proxies. They buy the cheap single or a couple packs when they go to see what they get and maybe be inspired to build something around a card cracked in a random pack. Proxies make the game approachable and give people a slow approach to the hobby
Kinda funny that a week ago people were complaining the RC “doesn’t do anything” and now people are mad when they do something. This isn’t to say either group is right, I just find it interesting I’m gonna maintain my stance that the Commander Ban List is fundamentally 3 lists: cards that don’t work with 4 players (Limited Resources, etc), cards that don’t work with 40 life (Griselbrand, etc), and cards that need to be banned because Magic players are sickos that keep trying to play them despite knowing they’re harmful (Iona, Hullbreacher, etc). All 4 of the new bans fall into the last category (tho Crypt also is the second category). Nadu monopolizes time, Dockside warps the whole game around it (why cEDH decks play so many clones), and Crypt and Lotus are 0-mana card-neutral acceleration. When Oathbreaker (a commander variant) was officially sanctioned with Crypt and Lotus already banned, it made me suspicious that they wouldn’t stay legal in regular commander forever. Sol Ring did have a write up about why it wasn’t banned, but honestly they should’ve just said “it’s a pillar of the format and in every commander product, we’re never banning it”. It’s like trying to ban Brainstorm in Legacy or Bolt in Modern. These are pillars of the format, and while they can be format-warping, they’re reasons people play the format. I also find it interesting that 3 of the 4 cards banned this announcement were explicitly designed for commander. This feels almost like a “please stop designing for us” message from the RC to WotC.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey Brian, long time lurker here. Just wanted to say that I could not be more grateful for your maturity and levelheadedness when addressing the community. Your videos are a treat to watch, gameplay, commentary and humour alike. Thanks!
And, of course, smoke em if you got'em bosh pack
It sucks that the people that need to hear this most are the people that turned the video off when Brian was laying the ground rules
FWIW this video has a lot of comments and I've only banned 2 people today. :)
Anyone that supports this ban doesn’t belong in the commander community. End of story.
Oh I just skipped straight to the conspiracy 🤑
now THIS is a title for the youtube algorithm!
Doing my best to reclaim some value out of my banned cards haha.
@@BoshNRollyou could've included "adressing the drama" to appease the algorithm even more
'the commander situation is insane...' would make the algo go crazy tbh
@@amazingpeptobismol Red arrows on the thumbnail pointing at things!!!
It brought me here lol!
22:36 in my experience, rule zero really doesn’t work. It’s not even that people are disingenuous (though that can be the case), it’s that people are not honest with themselves or are delusional or just have a bias with their own deck construction.
Basically, I’ve had a lot of failed rule 0 conversations, and I’m not a person who is scared of conflict or tough conversations or anything. I’m a freakin lawyer, I do that stuff all day. But Rule 0 requires all parties to have a consistent view of the target power, a shared view of the power of a certain deck, and an honest representation of a deck by the deck’s constructor.
I just think it’s an unrealistic system and it harkens back to a time of commander when it was a small, kitchen table format. But that’s not what it is anymore.
As always. Thanks for the great content!
I agree. Rule 0 works great if you're playing with a consistent play group. But that doesn't seem to be the norm anymore. Most people playing EDH are doing it at LGSs, college clubs, Magic Cons, or other public gathering like that (or online) and that's where R0 breaks down. And like you said, it's not always because of "Spike the Pubstomper Jerk" rolled up, sometimes it's just people not realizing their 7/10 deck is a lot worse or better than the other 7/10 decks at the table.
@@villanx1I hate how players can’t threat assess powerful cards, vs powerful synergies. Being targeted by the table because a has turn 1 mana crypt or sol ring but greedy kept and has no land drops makes 0 sense. Target the snowballers lol😂, not the player discarding to hand size
@@villanx1 I highly highly doubt most people playing edh are doing it at an lgs and think that’s a very far fetched assumption. Usually people have friends that play or their own pods, not to mention thinks like spelltable and mtgo exist
My normal pod does not rule zero the way I've seen elsewhere. We've all played together at the same table for 5-10 years, rotating a player or two depending on who's busy or whatever. We know what decks everyone in the pod plays. We have an understanding when a new deck is built it will have been as highly tuned as it can be. Our "rule zero" comes down to "Okay what deck you playing?" Other regulars to the store knows what our table is about and joins with no issue, they pull out their high powered deck.
Sometimes a new player joins and I do feel bad when they say "upgraded pre-con." and we try and power down or pull punches, but they've always been good sports about it and just want to play a game caring little if they win. The only time we've seen a person rage on us; we learned he does that in EVERY store in the county.
tl;dr My pod is mostly friends who like to play level 9-10 decks together on Fridays for a few hours.
Yeah, it's pretty clear rule zero just... doesn't work unless you have a consistent, close playgroup. For a myriad of reasons.
First 3-4 minutes already show why yours is the best MtG channel. Only you could say this and open a video like this. Dry, sober and rational and yet funny.
@@martinschafer6002 I want to be more like Brian, and want to associate with more people like Brian.
This is such a thoughtful, comprehensive video. Thank you for doing this Brian.
Just listening to BoshNRoll laying down the ground rules for the conversation I just want to stand and applaud. Way to encourage respect and civility in this crazy internet world.
Not all kings wear a crown
Bosh is the best. That's why we're all here!
Imagine getting robbed and then some cucked nerd giving rules to you on how to voice your frustrations.
20:00 'nobody asked for black lotus but just your commander' i've seen several custom cards to that effect, i think lots of people have thought of every version of 'black lotus but'. and wizards should have known from all the historical examples not to print black lotus. you can talk about the 'clarity of designing the game for thirty years' but they're printing more format breakers every year - it seems like what they're clear on is how to get money from whales, not how to make the game enjoyable.
of course rule 0 doesn't work and never worked, especially in public settings. the notion of rules is to solve disputes between players and not create more of them. it's not a 'rule' if what it says is that everyone at the table has to come to an arbitrary agreement about which otherwise similar cards are morally acceptable or not.
It's been up and down. I know this take is ice-cold, but I think the supplemental product is the problem. Pioneer, for example, has been extremely stable and fair to such a degree as to be lackadaisical since the combo banning, but it seems like every other format has been constantly on fire throughout this entire period. The main distinction, I think, is the supplementary product.
@@alecwoodard9464 i don't think jumpstart or battlebond were problems, i know conspiracy created some controversies but is now a valued part of eternal formats... lotr, pushed to hell, has approximately one objectionable card, at least that i can think of... nothing from fallout or warhammer is close to taking a ban... i want to finely delineate, there are big problems with wotc design which is cropping up in sets designed specifically for modern and commander, or for the 'power level' of those formats.
i think having to live in standard helps keep some bad design tendencies in check, but does exacerbate, for example, the amount of text on cards.
@@obsid2h888 when they say "supplemental product", they actually mean "specifically designed to be attractive (more than pushed, hopefully not broken enough to get banned, but it's ok if it eventually is) to commander players, so they'll buy and open pack." Warhammer and Fallout are both sealed decks with known lists, then collectors boosters for alternate treatments only, no chase mythic rules text. LotR only needed exactly one pushed card to sell packs, exactly how only Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus will sell packs of the sets they're in. And LotR also has Orcish Bowmasters, in addition to The One Ring. Set-deck-list products don't have chase cards in them, there's no chase if you can just buy the product.
@@alecwoodard9464 The problem is the shift in focus from designing for formats that rotate vs eternal formats. When WotC was designing for Standard, they had the advantage of any card that is problematic being only ever a temporary problem for most players. Now however, they are designing cards primarily for an eternal format. Like it or not, the Commander format is a turn-3/4 format, if you go off of the ban list (like Wizards does). Cards that are good at getting around a couple threats and gaining immediate value just don't hold up in the EDH environment, they just don't provide enough value for the cost. For a card to be good in Commander it needs to be designed for long, drawn out, snowball fights through 120 life and 3 board states -- or more 'value over time.' Why would I ever spend 3 mana to draw 2 one time, when I could spend 3 mana to draw every time someone else breathes until they decide to remove my enchantment? Supplemental product isn't the reason why other formats are crumbling. It's the fact that other formats get crushed by the sheer amount of value a 'commander focused card design' can provide. Look at YuGiOh. It started like Magic, durdly and simple. But because all the old cards are still around, the new ones need to be "better/cooler/stronger/more unique" or they won't sell. So over time, YuGiOh has become a 1-turn game. The cards all just got too good. The reprinting of Black Lotus in the form of "Jeweled Lotus" is proof of this beginning to happen in Magic. A card that was so broken that it's been completely banned in all formats and restricted in the single most powerful one, would NEVER have even been considered for reprinting, in ANY iteration, in the past when Standard was the primary format. But after the shift to Commander? Those old, hyper-pushed, concept cards from Magic's infancy don't look quite as strong now that Timetwister is legal, huh...? Prepare to see a whole lot more of these turbo-busted cards. Downsides are a thing of the past.
Two things:
1) I'm genuinely glad you're getting so much content out of this. The shorts were hilarious
2) Setting ground rules like that in the start is a good idea. Lets keep all discussion about it civilized, regardless of if we agree on things or not.
Ban pack sell them if you got em
Brian, thank you for being such a reasonable human. Even with these bans hitting you personally, im glad you weren't one of the reactionary people who let that alone decide their thoughts.
Seriously a pillar of, at least my, magic experience and community
21:58
Sorry, that's not what everyone at a table when power levels didn't match was doing. People were stomping, and sometimes I think they were genuinely unaware of the power of what they were doing.
As a every once in awhile at my local shop edh player I can attest to mixed results with rule 0. I think rule 0 works when youre at a table with people who want to have fun first and winning is a happy occassion. Some of my best memories playing edh are games where i lost. Unfortunately i think a lot of people tie their self worth to winning
Some people sadly just have shitty lives and shitty jobs and just enjoy pubstomping new players and winning every game is how they feel good about themselves
22:00 Hey. We have a small community here in Prague about 50 people and even here the Rule 0 doesn't work. There's always some salty people. And it's not like we don't know each other and yet, Rule 0 doesn't work for us. "you didn't tell me you do this thing", "this isn't this power level", "I can't deal with this and you didn't tell me". Used to own many commander decks but this got me out now I have one just for occasions.
Cards designed specifically for commander should have never happened. Commander should never be a consideration for WotC. It was far better before they started meddling
It is and was inevitable. It's wizard's job to design cards people want/want to play with, and to sell them to those people.
Commander is by far the most played constructed form of magic, and is the largest source of people buying magic cards.
There never was or even could be anything different.
agreed but the did make some really cool cards. deadly rollick and the likes. lotus was a mistake even jlk told wizards not to print it. the best part of commander was finding weird card yhat said each opponent or all players and going wild with cards that would not even see play in other formats. now every set is commander with a few that fit into the other formats. sort of sad and mostly bad for other formats. I there haven't even been a standard game night at either of the stores were I live since 2022. and pioneer has been maybe 1 year. it's only modern and commander.
On the bit about rule 0: I think there's tension between talking about how rule 0, not bannings, is the place for fast mana to be handled, and also talking about this taking money out of people's collections.
I do agree that rule 0's where this ought to be handled-- in an ideal world every game would play that stuff solely by the players involved's preferences, and the ban list wouldn't even matter for anything but cEDH. But in that world, prices wouldn't be affected by a banning except to whatever extent they're affected by cEDH, since casual players wouldn't have any different level of demand for the card at all.
We'll see how things shake out, but it seems to me like prices are going to drop in a type of way that indicates people in practice really just don't follow rule 0 all that much, and banning with respect to casual gameplay actually is a good move, even if maybe in an ideal world it wouldn't be. So I guess I'm squaring this circle by saying "yep, rule 0 is basically fake, it's good advice but not advice people are good at taking"
I might add: rule 0 is only not helpful when playing ‘in the wild’. if you have a consistent playgroup, it is a great idea and worth exploring.
It would be really nice if Rule 0 was effective, but it is in practice pretty exclusionary. Like I've said across the thread, expecting discussions like this to be resolved at the table makes it difficult for women, people in marginalized groups, and even white guys who don't like conflict to feel able to engage in the discussion. I think as enfranchised Magic players who are generally reasonable and empathetic people - and used to arguing over triggers - it can be difficult to see those problems, but it doesn't make them less important to the game's long term health.
@@domotoroOfficial For sure! It's not a helpful idea for game stores and larger events, but it's a great idea if you have a consistent and/or lightly rotating pod.
The problem with fast mana is that the idea appeals during building decks but is only ever fun for the player that draws it. It was destined to be banned, and the longer the band aid of ignoring the problem stayed on, the more it was going to hurt. I'm glad it happened now and not after more versions were printed, as clearly Wizards would keep doing it periodically.
For me the thing about rule zero is that it’s easier to allow an exception than enforce a local ban. Almost every week I play against a unique lineup from a pool of around 40 commander players. With that many players it is really hard to rule 0 bans but very easy to rule 0 exceptions.
No one wants to sit down at the table and tell people what they can’t play and organizing that many people to get an official band list together is unrealistic and overly time consuming. It also puts added friction on players joining the group or learning Magic. Now they have to be informed of secondary LGS or pod bannings.
There is also the question of what to do if they don’t adhere to or agree with the ban? I think it just leads to socially awkward situations. It’s much easier to have a conversation saying “I’m playing this banned card. Is that OK?”. Most of the time people will be fine with it and also it can give an indication of the table about the power level of your deck. I think these bans are super great for the health of the format. So appreciative of the RC for taking action.
I'm actually a Delta marine that makes Rambo look like Homer Simpson, and when I'm not covered in sexy naked models that crave my man-meat or dishing out extreme violence in the name of preserving freedom, I ridicule MTG players in very specific and informed ways, not that I play MTG, but nonetheless I mock their lack of manliness
Thank you for your service.
I agree that Mana Crypt's ban was a bad call, in terms of execution and community impact.
However, I can't say the same for Jeweled Lotus. The card was predatory and of poor design for the format, and we're all better off without it. The financial losses for it suck, but those financials were more-or-less facilitated by WotC, who reprinted it only once and dangled it as a chase card. It just felt like Wizards artificially imposing staples and a meta onto EDH, filling a hole that didn't exist and suckering players into buying packs. Why it stayed legal for as long as it did is a mystery to me, but I'm happy to see it go.
I talked about these bans in a twitter thread, a bit on my podcast with Trinket Mage, and also I'm releasing a video today about Sol Ring about why it dodged a ban (at least from a casual lens). But I suppose I'll drop a thing here because I legit find these bans so interesting to talk about.
I am not into using proxies much like you, for much the same reason! Also not anti-proxy, I don't like money being a gate for people to have a reason to get out and play games with others. It is no secret that losing money SUCKS, we've surely all felt it before, so don't take this as me rubbing salt in a wound but I am legitimately very happy to see people say "this has shaken my confidence in collecting" as a "gotcha." It honestly makes me happy to hear this. I think it's not a good mindset to have an expectation of a "cash out" about a card game. All money you put into magic cards you should consider GONE, you should not spend money you don't have expecting to have the chance to "break the piggy bank" as it were. I will still buy magic cards even after this ban, multi-hundred dollar decks, I've always been buying cards with the expectation that I would not get the money I spent back.
Money out of the way, these bans make me a little scared for cEDH since remora/rhystic already owns the format and these accelerators (especially dockside) being banned makes rhystic/remora that much stronger. From a casual perspective I love these bans as someone who would see crypt/lotus every 5 games or so to much groaning of the table. "What about sol ring?" Sol ring is stronger than crypt, but is also the cheaper card as you said it is super cheap. Also the point of the ban as they mentioned wasn't to ERADICATE the games where 5 mana happens on turn 2-3 but to reduce the frequency. They literally say "we aren't trying to eliminate fast starts." Anyway, the rule 0 argument also goes both ways, you can just rule 0 crypt back into your coinflip deck or your cedh deck and its honestly better that way than the rule 0 it out argument.
Honestly, all in all, I hope that this means we'll get less jeweled lotuses. I hope people spend more carefully. I can't really comment on the tinfoil hat stuff besides the fact that it certainly doesn't look good that mana crypt was banned same year we got a chase reprint of it RC connected to wotc or not. Overall though I am happier than I am sad about the bans, also play cube.
Got any comments on Jaws of the Conclave and why it was a menace?
I would reconsider whether one should celebrate the loss in confidence. In commander's defining philosophy document, they clearly state that a core tenet of the format is to be STABLE. I think in a way, these high card prices were not intended to be some sort of lower risk parallel to building a stock portfolio, but a vote of confidence in how the format was maintained, and its stability as a projected long-term hobby. Just because a card is expensive does not mean people also associate it with a confident investment, as is clearly seen in other formats. Players do not cite a confidence in collecting regarding powerful cards just because they view magic as an investment, but moreso that the confidence that the community no longer feels used to be part of commander's brand and identity.
Elk, the point which Boshnroll raises in the video is that the collectors and store owners who are affected monetarily by this ban are subsidizing the game. He asks, how can you consider yourself a member of the community if you are happy at the misfortune of the stakeholders and LGS's who prop the game up? I don't think your comment properly addresses this but I'm eager to hear your full thoughts in your upcoming video.
Personally, I have a lot of problems with his rationalization here because he's leading towards the argument that "you are not allowed to be uncomfortable with capitalism if you participate in it." It's a fallacious false equivalency. And it's the kind of argument a person who is heavily monetarily invested would make.
cannot agree more that people shouldn’t be expecting to make money back out of their hobby.
I would even extend this to tournament entry fees: I personally pay them expecting the fee to be a price to play a few rounds in a fun tournament setting, and if I win it’s gravy.
@@domotoroOfficial My rationale is that of they wanted to cash out, they had a shot already. If the ban had happened later, the same thing would have been said. It's like the parable of the horseowning farmer. It went that the farmer was poor and wanted to feed his horse as little as possible to dave money, so he cuts the rice portion slightly every day until he's feeding the horse like a fistful of rice, then the horse drops dead and the farmer says "Darn, just as I was about to find out the right amount". The farmer here should have stopped when the horse started looking worse for wear, or he had cut the rations in half, before he was left with no horse. This is the same. If they wanted to cash out, they should have.
Great video, great discussion, a lot of good points overall.
I have something to add regarding what you said around 45:50. You were discussing the idea of a some kind of warning that Lotus and Crypt were going to be banned. From what I understood, you came to the conclusion that the Rules Committee couldn't really warn anyone (because of risks of leaks, insider trading and so on).
I think there still were ways to soften the blow. Basically, the problem is that these bans seem to surprise everyone, when there was high confidence in the fact that Lotus and Crypt were here to stay. To soften the blow, they could have tailored communication, over a couple months, to weaken that confidence.
For example, if they had spared a paragraph under the last couple "no ban changes" announcements in which they listed half a dozen specific accelerators which they were looking at closely (say, Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault, Dockside, Dark Ritual, Jeska's Will, and a couple more), they would have shaken confidence in the fact that all of these were here to stay. Basically this would have informed the public that some of these were not forever safe, lessening the blow.
Another thing they could have done is purposefully spreading rumors on social media. Random anonymous accounts, falsely claiming that x or y is going to get banned at a given date, or more subtle types of comments. It's an operation, it's not necessarily all that easy to coordinate, but it would be effective.
My point isn't that they had super mega easy ways to avoid keeping this announcement under wraps completely. Rather, I just think that there were things which could have been done to soften the blow, without necessarily risking insider trading scandals or the like.
I'm mainly commenting on a technicality of the way they could have logistically prepared and anticipated the consequences of such a dramatic announcement. I'm not exposing opinions on the broader implications of it all, I don't trust my gut enough for that.
It's wild online discourse has gotten to a place where ban list updates in Magic need disclaimers like this.These updates have occurred for longer than most of the people trolling have been alive.
You are brilliant with the way that you articulated with what I could not with a bunch of people. This is the first video of yours that I have had the privilege of watching. I will be watching more. You also touched on the anger that many of us are feeling on either side of the argument with the ban. Thank you.
4 minutes in and BoshnRoll makes a reference to the BBC World Service. Whether it’s pop culture references, music references, or a reference to one of my primary sources of news, I find myself, time and again, thinking BoshnRoll is just a really cool dude. Thanks for being an awesome steward of the MTG community man!
If only Normal Island Domestic was half as based as World Service. I usually listen to DemoNow or NPR, because of how much the World Service team has to toe the transphobia line due to domestic UK issues, but it's a good station all around.
Your introduction is one of the reasons I love your videos so much, you have such a compassionate approach to everything and you try to encourage people to think and act with kindness
Its fun and interesting to listen to Brian's inter monolog.
really wonderful monolog on the subject. Appreciate your thoroughly thoughtful perspectives and being so articulate in describing the views in depth. thank you for contributing this to the community.
To be fair, the point they made for mana crypt could be held for sol ring BUT mana crypt gives acced to 3 mana T1 with a colored one. That makes T1 Rhystic study way more likely or other crazy things. On its own, sol ring doesn't enable much on turn 1 besides another rock.
Now I think sol ring should be banned as well given the reasons they mentioned but I cannot put it on the same level as crypt.
This is the best RUclips video I’ve watched in the last few days about the bans (and I watched a lot of them). I particularly enjoyed your ground rules (reason is in short supply these days). Thank you for your balanced perspective (both casual, cEDH, and collector’s perspectives). The stories behind Nadu and Olivia from the Rules committee were also very interesting so thanks for sharing!
This has to been one of the best videos about this topic, level-headed arguments and opinions. I really appreciate your vision in this kind of topics (as someone pretty new into magic), thanks for all your work!
There's been so much chaos over the last few days,. It's really nice to sit down and hear someone have a considered reasonable opinion, rather than just screaming into the void.
1:05:41 the idea that magic players couldn't handle the reserve list being removed is disappointing. I'm in the camp of get rid of it. I'm cool with my expensive cards being reprinted, but i buy to collect because i like exactly that version, and i like it at that price. I'll feel bad if that version goes down because there is a new cheaper/cooler version, but thats just collecting
Great video with some fantastic points.
I've always kept pretty close to the minimum number of these higher priced non-RL cards (6x Wasteland, 5x FoW, 1x Mana Crypt, 1x Mana Vault, 1x Dockside, 1x Jeweled Lotus, etc.) and then proxied additional copies if I wanted to spread these across multiple decks.
17:20 I think what happened with Voja is that commander players play wraths, but they don't normally play that many and Voja if they got off to a good start without lotus basically required a wrath on turn 4. so, in the casual mindset if you saw Voja across the table you had to hope you drew one of your 3ish wraths by then. However, Voja never really played lotus. they just played elfball. Really, I think where jeweled lotus was a problem however was in decks like Niv Mizzet Parun or tatyova or any of the hundreds of value engine commanders in casual circles. Where you could take advantage of the fact that plenty of casual decks are removal light and get tons of advantage. Basically, in casual, jeweled lotus helped power out a lot of nongames thanks to bad deckbuilding practices.
To add on, not disagree: the social aspect comes in too. Commander players can get... touchy... when their stuff gets removed, maybe more so when it gets countered. I prefer to play at tables that develop norms of sucking it up, but many tables don't roll like that, and playing a high wrath count or countering a commander is considered bad manners. At a table like that, Voja is a crazy apex predator; it kind of weaponizes the social norms of commander, basically daring opponents to do a frowned-upon thing or lose quickly to the big board and full hand it creates if you don't respond to it in one of those two ways.
@venerable_vole i play at a lot of similar tables, but I would like to add further that if you're not playing blue, finding enough board wipes to deal with a voja deck consistently can be problematic. Sure, you only need one board wipe, but lots of board wipes are symmetrical, meaning if you're playing a bunch of them in games, it can end up dragging out. People understandably find this annoying, so glass cannon all in strategies in general can be a bit volatile at casual tables. Sometimes, you don't draw the out and lose.Voja is just the biggest offender because of that ward limiting potential counterplay further.
@@venerable_vole in my experience it's less about being touchy and more about "unnecessarily" prolonging the games. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but I can see where it comes from.
You’re an inspiring presence in the Magic community, and over the time I’ve spent consuming your content ive consistently admired you more and more Bosh, thanks for being an amazing human and a wonderful pillar in the community
Im having a kid soon and I was considering what card they should hold first @13:17 I now know what card to use.
You really don't get a choice.
I should make a "5 mana on Turn 2" Commander deck now after these bans. It would still be really easy to do. There's quite literally a half a dozen other ways to make it happen: Land-Exploration-Land-Sol Ring; Land-Lotus Petal-Exploration-Land-Arcane Signet-Sol Ring (that one's 6 mana on turn-2 after your next land drop); Land-Sol Ring-Grim Monolith (That one's 7 mana on turn-2 with your next land drop); Land-Sol Ring-Lotus Petal-Dark Ritual (that one's 5 mana on turn-1); Mox Opal, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Diamond Lion, Fellwar Stone, Lotus Blossom, Aether Vial, Mind Stone, Literally any mana-dork, this list goes on -- that was just off the top of my head. Yes, this is all Magical Christmas Land, but that seems to be where they're pulling these, "5 mana on turn-2 is way too strong so we need to get rid of these 2 specific mana rocks guys" bans from so.... sue me. The arguments put forth for banning Mana Crypt, could be used to argue for the banning of every card that accelerates mana in any way, or to put *their* argument more simply, "all ramp cards should be banned." I would be willing to bet money that not one person formerly on the CRC still owned any copies of Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt in their collections as of September 22nd, 2024.
holy was not aware the extent to how based brian is
Thank you for communicating what so many of us are feeling in a thoughtful way, Brian. It is sincerely appreciated.
I have to say I appreciate this perspective but I have a problem with the idea that something should be banned but the RC are afraid to ban it because of the financial fallout that can create problems. I am not speaking about these bans in particular, I am saying in general if a card is deemed a problem but it is over $200 and they decide not to ban it because of the financial backlash and fallout then that is a problem.
This was a great listen. A lot of thoughts you mention in your conclusion are similar to ones I had that kept me from getting more into Magic when I was first introduced. I started in Zendikar but had friends who played since 5th. It always felt like I would have to spend an egregious amount to invest into playing the game and my collection would always be more volatile than their older collections.
It may not be a Mana Crypt vs. Sol Ring argument, but a Mana Crypt plus Sol Ring problem. Yes, Sol Ring gives you the same benefit but if your hand has both you are far more likely to win the game. I have seen people try to Mulligan down to 5 or 4 to get that hand. If you have just Sol Ring (which everyone has) it levels out the format. This is especially true in casual.
Just started watching your channel because of me designing and printing proxies to play kitchen table vintage and I agree with all your said. Best wishes from Mexico brother player
Bang on. Two weeks ago my 16 yr old had just liquidated his Pokeman collection and bought an Ixalan Mana Crypt. He’s left sour on the game. Tough lesson for a kid on portfolio diversification. WoTC has lost us as collectors and now we will treat cards as game pieces only. Proxies for expensive cards are now our go to.
agree!
ive decided to sell anything over 10 and order proxies of those ones i have in decks, not worth getting burned, even though they say they plan no more bans
welcome to investing, kid.
Disgusting that this is even possible in this game. Tough lesson about portfolio diversification? To play a card game? Shame. This game is for rich scummers.
did he buy it to play it or as an "investment" as you call it.
if its the latter then why wouldnt you get him to buy reserved list cards
if its the former it sucks alot but when i was 16 i had an entire modern deck banned, its part of the game unfortunatly
10 minutes in and already love this video. Lots of truth that needs to be reiterated every couple of years
I'm pretty sure we're a year off from Sol Ring being written in the Second Amendment for the US.
I think the argument of Mana Crypt against Sol Ring holds weight in the sense that everyone can have the latter, while the former is much more scarce and makes it a more probable lopsided advantage. You’re much more likely to draw your second Sol Ring when you have it in your deck. Not a lot of people can afford to have one, but the vast majority of decks could be improved by adding that card, which isn’t true with every expansive card there is.
The argument behind the banning of Moxes was much similar, where they’d be easy inclusions in any deck without being as opressive as other P9 cards, but it would make the cost of entry explode. At some points, we could see similar bannings for the original duals which are 2X-3X more expensive now than they were 10 years ago. At some point they just become prohibitively expensive while being auto-includes in 99% of multicolor decks.
My only critique is what you said about MTG cards aren't treated like stocks.
The financial side of these cards have been predicated on the demand for these cards. And that directly affects a card's financial value. This is very similar to how stocks in the stock market operate.
So I do agree with the majority of what you presented in this video. But I think it's time to admit that yes these cards are treated very much like stock brokers evaluating stocks.
On the Sol Ring topic, I believe that their intention is/was to reduce the prevalence of explosive starts in EDH. Sol Ring provides this gas at $0.50 (oftentimes free), whereas getting a second version of this effect was $200 in Mana Crypt. The choice seems obvious if they're merely mitigating explosive starts and not removing them entirely, though there's conversation to be had if the choice needed to be made in the first place...
11:31 Sol ring is mentioned right there! On screen! They talked about it!
He means in direct correlation with the whole “5 mana on turn 2” play patterns, and that the card is so obviously just 1 mana mana crypt and the whole format is supported by a “slightly” worse mana crypt
45:57 info seemingly did leak out from it though. Sources approached several content creators claiming mana crypt would be banned in late September. Where they obtained it, who knows, but it is oddly specific.
Which makes sense as they said they have been discussing these bans for over a year. Many people have left wotc since then.
I had one deck that was devastated by the JLo and Mana Crypt bans. I don't even really play them unfairly - I just love my big, dumb colorless artifact deck with an Eldrazi top end.
aaaawwwhhhhh, poor you
@@atmaximum I mean, I was annoyed at the announcement, but not financially. I can recover. I can modify the deck. I was given one of my mana crypts. I opened the others in packs. I bought my Jeweled Lotus when it was first released and wasn't yet all that expensive.
Everybody likes diverent stuff stay on path brother and stomp people like atmaximum with Eldrazi 😂
@@atmaximum wow, you are the exact person bosh was roasting in his intro.
How is ramping out eldrazi not unfair?
@2:31 based and boshpilled. entirely seriously i knew you were a great person already but this is a fantastic intro and i am always happy to know that i contribute to your patreon even if its a small amount. excited to hear the actual ban analysis but just wanted to acknowledge. anyway back to smoking on that ban pack smoke em if you got em
Nadu was banned for the same reason as Paradox Engine, most people saw this coming from a hundred miles away after seeing how Nadu plays.
The bans dont break any of my decks but fast mana has never been the annoying factor of explosive decks. id much rather weather a mana crypt explosive start than 1 more thassa oracle dexk that goldfishes for 30 min looking for its line.
Well presented and level headed, thanks for being objective and fair. This was 'soothing' to watch...if that even makes any sense...the last few days have been an emotional roller-coaster for many. Cheers from New Zealand.
Jeweled Lotus should have never been printed, full stop. It was clearly broken, it was printed to be clearly broken, and the RC should have banned the card before it saw the light of day
it existed to move packs, bad design and unhealthy for the state of the game.
Jeweled is not broken brother
Is dark ritual broken ?
@@calebporter6237Never played a game of EDH or cEDH, but even I know Jeweled Lotus doesn't just make black mana AND it costs zero making this comparison mute.
@@calebporter6237 yes lol, and this is vastly better if you're in a deck that wants it
5ED Mana Vault is a gorgeous card. You take that back, sir.
Reasonable adult has to remind magic players to be normal for just once in their life, film at 11.
Bingo. You described exactly my financial situation. I hustled for my jeweled lotuses and crypts and did the “trade up” from my tournament wins. I own duals now and there’s something about losing those mid-level “big trade ups” that crushes my soul this week that people who just took out a credit card don’t seem to get. 😢
My casual playgroup has none of the banned cards available to them. We only play at the kitchen table where its more comfortable. We buy from tcgplayer marketplace without differentiating one store from another. None of us thought of owning any one of the banned cards either given how expensive they were (and remain.)
We are not some unenfrancised players either. Most of us having played for over a decade. We collect cards in most smaller quantities and at lower prices and power levels.
What I am saying is, these rules changes were not for us and won't affect us in the slightest.
Just want to say that the intro to this video is probably the most level headed and respectable response to this situation. Thank you for being a voice of reason with what, at the end of the day, is just cardboard. Much love.
I sympathize with the money people lost in this but there is a big problem. If people are treating, probably correctly so, magic cards as an investment then you can’t have your cake and eat it too. All investments go up and down and crash and if we’re treating cards like stocks we can’t be mad when the issues with stocks happen. There are people very heavily impacted by this banning but if we use the excuse to never ban expensive cards then we are forfeiting gameplay for people who just want numbers to go up.
The Magic Historian hit the nail on the head about Sol ring staying…it would have made all pre packaged commander product contain a banned card. No way WotC lets that go.
With jeweled lotus, that's the 1-2 punch the RC needs to do to assert dominance of the game quality over wizard's profits.
I really felt the emotional part of this video. As a regular watcher of the channel who hasn't actually played the game in quite a while but who has opened a jeweled lotus on a Christmas commander legend box the part of the video where you were narrating the unboxing had me shed a tear. Normal videos usually show the witty, funny side of Bosh, but this was a true show of heartwarming humanity.
Make Cedh Great Again! ✊️
I recommend everyone to hold on to Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus, if you see yourself playing Cedh in the future.
It's interesting to think that Cedh might be its own official format. If that happens, the ban cards prices should correct and also mana vault will also stay expensive because it's edh demand.
Your level-headedness and clarity in what you want to say in your videos is why you've become my favourite MtG content creator. The reaction some people have had to the ban has been appalling and, as I stopped playing commander myself a long time ago, I'm glad to get such a well-measured explanation of the situation from someone who is deeply invested in it. You also make a very good point in why this is upsetting for non-cedh players as well; Jeweled Lotus must be the most pump-and-dump card printed so far and sets an awful precedent.
I don't own an sol ring. I do own earthcraft though...
The authorities are on their way to collect you.
@@BoshNRollSurely the authorities are simply on the way to deliver a small pile of Sol Rings. What am I paying taxes for if not that.
I understand that a lot of people lost a lot of money (as well as "pride of the collection" emotional value) and I also understand feeling somewhat scammed given that wizards likely knew they were selling low half-life staples last year (which is really scummy on their part), but where you lose me is when you say that the ban shouldn't have happened because of it even though it's a good thing for gameplay. Is the implication of that just that past mistakes of game design don't get to be fixed because they are worth money now? Of course it would have been better if jeweled lotus was never printed or banned in 2020/2021 or if mana crypt (and sol ring for that matter) were banned along with the moxen when the format was invented, but we are here now and I personally don't think that the collectible aspect of the game should ever take precedent over the actual gameplay.
Heya Brian, do you have a video showing your casual commander decks at their different power levels? I love your legacy content, but I think that'd be really sweet to see too, to hear you nerd out about different casual commander decks
My casual decks are on display in my RUclips shorts. I haven't done a video where I "nerd out" though, could be fun one day!
This was a very well done video that covers a lot of angles and promotes an understanding of the facts, what happened, what can happen in the future, etc.
I'm a very new player, relatively to magic (started end of 2018) and I have never understood the appeal of commander as someone who loves 40 and 60 card formats (yorion can have a mention i guess).
Despite me being unaffected by these bans, I do really feel sorry for everyone who has ever dedicated hours of their life in order to earn money to afford a center piece sought after card for a game they enjoy. Confidence in the game should not be overlooked as a concept, and I think we can all agree that this hurts the people who care most, who do actually invest time and money to play the game.
I read the comments on Hareruya's video on this to see what Japanese people thought about it. It was certainly a lot less chaotic.
One major point that they brought up is the optics argument for why the power 9 were banned. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were seen as expensive staples needed in order to buy onto the format, and this ban would make the format more accessible to newer players. The sentiment of lost value was there, but nowhere near the level of not wanting to play the game anymore.
Yeah, when the OG Moxes were banned they could be bought for a little over $400. Mana Crypt is close to 300 now. And you can say 2011 dollars isnt 2024 dollars, but we're firmly in the same ball park now. Its an honest emotion to have for new players to see a big turn happen on the back of Mana Crypt, and being like, what the hell? Do I have to spend $600 on my deck or play for 3 years before I can win.
Respect for the option and openness
I want to discuss a viewpoint I hold in relation to these bans. I strongly feel that Wizards (or at least Hasbro) fully agrees with you (Brian) in regards to the bans. They have built a basis on selling packs by including these cards. Having chase cards isn't by any means problematic, but the entire game has been built on these 2 cards for what feels like years now. This isn't healthy for the game long term. Wizards was all too likely to keep doing this by printing a new way-too-strong card every few years to use as a way to sell packs until they print the new ones. This move by the rules committee breaks that pattern and tells wizards "we won't just leave any card you make intentionally busted to sell packs" means wizards has to care more about the health of the format in what cards they print. They won't be able to print things like a black lotus for commander only going forward. This to me is a ripping the bandaid off situation. I lose money in my collection too, but this feels so much like a situation where after the initial pang of pain, I feel more free. If another jeweled lotus style card gets printed, I guarantee it won't be as expensive because people will understand that it can be banned. This to me is cutting off the foot to save the rest of the body.
This is literally the best, most thoughtful and well delivered take on this I have seen. Thank you for being such a clear and concise voice for us.
Great video, great intro. Sorry you have had to deal with people hating in the comments. keep doing what you do man. We all need to be just a little bit nicer in the world.
Really good video. On that last cEDH friends topic, I would encourage you to check out the commander variant Conquest. No RL, different overall banlist, 12 commander damage, no sol ring. Pretty fun for competitive play while also being better for casual. Very popular in Brazil.
Loved your intro i have seen so many people cover this topic and not remind so many people just to be a good human
Thanks for being one of the most level-headed responses out there. I only agree with about half of the opinions here, but I appreciate how you presented all of them.
Oh man, just from the intro, it's obvious the negativity and harassment thrown around. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, even when you weren't involved with the decision. I can't imagine how much hate the people involved have received. Hope they are doing okay.
new to the channel, however that intro alone made me sub immediately. Kudos to being a voice of reason amongst all the - frankly insane - outlash!
I appreciate the transparency.
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
I find this to be an atrocious play pattern. Say "decent" is a pretty basic $100 card list or $15 upgraded precon.in this scenario.
A "detuned" Chulane Advisor Tribal pEDH still just shits on every single decent deck.
A "tuned" mono blue Crab tribal with the fast mana and tutors... also just shits on any decent deck.
In Chulane, you have a deck with a lower ceiling but extremely high floor relative to the opponents it plays. In crab tribal, you have a deck with extremely higher ceilings relative to the opponents.
Disregarding all the other arguments because I think they are valid reason to disagree with this ban, I really do not think price of a card should affects its legality. If a card is $0.01 or $1000 it still affects the format the same. If a card costs a lot but makes the format not fun to play, it should still be banned for the health of the format. I get that it sucks to lost a lot of money on a card, but the rules committees job is to balance the format, not to maintain collection prices
Unban Library of Alexandria!
I agree. I love my local games stores. I try to play every weekend, but card prices cannot and should not determine if a card is ban worthy. This is a game first.
I personally believe card prices like these should have never gotten to this point in the first place. Reprint these to the ground.
I agree with a lot of bosh's points (ie: bans all at once, out of nowhere, the double standard on fast mana), but I also I think that someone will always be left holding the bag. Someone is going to lose money on things like this no matter what.
You are definitely right though a card simply shouldn't cost that much. A version of that card obviously can and should but absurd prices simply gatekeep the game. I think what I and a lot of people complain about is that people get super touchy about the commander banlist in the first place. Rule 0 is clearly not enough to balance the game and as somebody that only plays commander as an alternative to my main formats limited and pauper, I enjoy a format that for once isn't entirely competitive and allows for much more player expression. Banning absurdly strong cards like mana crypt will probably lead to more and not less expression so I can't really be unhappy about this. Also played a lot of Centurion/Duel Commander in the past and that format has to ban a lot of cards for the formats health especially with how many absurd cards WotC is printing.
I agree but I believe you also need to look at outside factors jeweled lotus being the prime example. You have a card that people paid 100+ dollars on (for the people who didn’t pull or proxy) and now it’s quite literally unable to played anywhere else in the game, it’s essentially a 100+ dud card. Every other card on this ban list is played in atleast 1 other format. People also knew that jeweled lotus was a problem when it first came out if they wanted to ban it at any time it shouldn’t have been years later after thousands of people bought or pulled the card when other cards like Nadu were banned within 3-6 months.
@@devilbhrothesavage2807 100% you can have your 100+ dollar shiny foil alt art borderless thing, but just make sure that the normal plain one for us not rolling in cash. This is an amazing game. I love modern and legacy, but I have so many friends that literally can't play the game because of the price.
Thank you for a measured and honest response. I think you've articulated well the very things that I'm feeling and thinking.
I’m big on the benefit of the doubt. Slightly suspicious timing is not enough to make me suspect the rules committee put off banning these cards. If anything the reprints were likely a large part of the cause for the ban as they introduced more copies of these cards into casual play.
The RC definitely doesn't want to rock the boat. Do they all even have real jobs? Or do they just talk about commander? Because if it is their livelihood they are most definitely working with WoTC.
Now this is the level headed discussion we need to have about formats. Well done Bryan
I will just comment quickly on card prices. I agree that cards need to have value, but we have to admit that card values have become kind of obscene. Im a US resident who has a hard time spending 200$ on a card when i have a house and kids. WOTC has recently figured out a better solution and they need to continue in the trend of High end promos or alt art treatments for expensive cards in my opinion. We shouldn't be expected as players to Pay to Win, when something like Pokemon TCG which is very successful has top tier standard decks for 30-50$. It's honestly insane that one copy of Sheoldred is 75$ for a base printing. They've made the active effort for fetch lands to be affordable while still having high end versions, i just have a hard time stomaching that certain cards are locked behind a pay wall. This wouldn't have been such a big deal imho if something like Crypt or lotus was a 50$ card rather than 100-200. Yes you still lose your value on the premium version, but collectors are still collectors, and if you splurged your 500$ on a crypt it wont lose as much as a normal would do to scarcity. Love your content bosh.
Paying to win is not the issue. The problem is paying to keep up. If one guy decides that legacy banned and vintage restricted Mana Crypt is suitable for your pod then you also have to buy it otherwise he will dunk on you. If people had some common sense and didn't bring cEDH cards into casual pods or random pickup games there wouldn't be any problem.
@@Martin-qb2mw i don't disagree that some people can't seem to grasp the idea that some cards were not made for casual play. Pregame conversations/ rule 0 needs an overhaul, it's crazy how every commander podcast/ show says "we don't play sol ring because it isn't balanced" but you still see one every single game in the real world, not to mention the people who play MLD despite the social stigma.
First time viewer here, just wanted to say that your insight and level-headed approach to such a complex topic have impressed me and that I'm looking forward to discovering more quality content on your channel.
Im gonna be watching upcoming 5 mana commanders to see why that number is scary
Currently at 13:00 or so. FWIW, they talk about Sol Ring later in the article and say they want the effect but not redundancy of it.
Okay, you just addressed this!
Honestly, all the "just rule 0 it" talk has me wanting to put out a video/write an essay on when/where rule 0 works and what it is.
Rule 0 is for established playgroups to customise the game to suit them. IT DOES NOT WORK FOR PICK-UP GAMES AT LGS'S OR CONVENTIONS.
The role of the commander banlist is to facilitate better pick-up games by banning the cards players fail to self-select to the appropriate powerlevel.
This is why Golos is banned, but Thoracle + Consult is legal. Mana/Value cards tend to be underestimated by casual players, while win the game cards tend to be overestimated.
This. Doesn't work for online play, either.
That's a good summary of the situation with Rule 0.
(Casual) EDH is, at its core, a playgroup construction game, like D&D. If you assemble a good playgroup, you will have success playing casual EDH (which is to say you'll have fun). If you don't, you won't. All of that is essentially regardless of the relative power levels of the decks involved.
Once you've assembled a good playgroup, Rule 0 is there so you can further tailor the experience to suit the desires/tastes/collections of the group.
Sitting down with some random strangers is leaving the core aspect of the format (which, again, is the construction of a good playgroup) to chance. It might work out by chance, and it might not. Rule 0 doesn't change that, it just might make the game a bit more balanced in power level. But it's vastly, vastly more fun to get blown out by one cEDH deck stomping a bunch of precons among a close group of friends who can enjoy the spectacle than it is to play in a pod of four perfectly balanced decks where the opponents don't know how to be reasonable people.
This. Rule 0 only really works for those lucky enough to have a dedicated playgroup full of reasonable people that think similarly to you. What if you can't reliably find 4 people to play with and have to play with people at your LGS? What if you actually have friends to play with, but some people want a high power level and some want low? What if you dont play regularly enough to hammer out a rule 0 banlist?
Eternal Durdles started their podcast with "We play with in a tight-knit group that loves playing non cEDH lists with these cards, so we'll be sad to see them go" which just had me scratching my head.
@@Ivan-Kh
Legacy, modern, pioneer and standard is like MMA, tae-kwon-do, judô and box.
EDH is professional wrestling, where you're there for the show.
cEDH is ppl that think professional wrestling is for real.
a very thorough analysis, good job Brian! I especially liked the tinfoil hat portion, as the website stuff I almost never interact with, so it was extra interesting
A couple of weeks ago at Commandfest Frankfurt my 12yo son opened a Mana Crypt out of a Mystery Booster Pack. The joy in his face was one of the most heartwarming things one could witness.
Last monday, when he realized what just happened... The pain and anguish in the same face literally just broke my heart.
I also want to be positive and look forward to the open card slots in my cEDH decks, however, I would caution everyone to remember that crypt, jlo, and probably even dockside need to be replaced with lands or other mana rocks/sources especially if your land count is very slim…
Proxies are an interesting problem. Personally I buy a card and then print and play with proxies so that my actual card is not accidentally lost or damaged. That said if people are in financial duress I think proxies are a great solution. Overall the game is just too expensive. I agree with you though. If you can it’s good to support the game and LGS’s though.
I watched the entire hour. Best take i have seen, and I have been watching ban discussion non stop. Thanks for the content.
It's crazy that you're having to preface a statement with "I like owning things"
People get weird about it.
Personally, I don't care if you proxy. I would play super expensive formats with proxies if I could because I want the experience without the financial stake. But if you want to collect the card game, that's awesome. If you want to only play the card game, that's also awesome. But if either side ridicules the other for wanting to exist, that is something completely different.
I think the hardest part is that proxy doesn't really support stores, unless there's a tournament involved.
@@Jordan-dg8tp I think most people who don't proxy really care about other people proxying, but there is a strange group of "Proxy everything" people who play the game even though they also won't shut up about how much they hate the game, and are on a moral crusade to bankrupt wizards of the coast by getting everyone to Proxy cards.
@@YaRr1707 Let's be real - anyone on a "moral crusade" against creators of a card game have a few screws loose and should not ever be taken seriously.
@@Jordan-dg8tp the argument that proxying doesn't support stores is kinda wack, because normally people go to stores and buy sleeves/boxes/snacks when they play to house those proxies. They buy the cheap single or a couple packs when they go to see what they get and maybe be inspired to build something around a card cracked in a random pack. Proxies make the game approachable and give people a slow approach to the hobby
that intro made me subscribe alone, i wish more people were like you and i hope i get to meet you at a legacy event one day
Kinda funny that a week ago people were complaining the RC “doesn’t do anything” and now people are mad when they do something. This isn’t to say either group is right, I just find it interesting
I’m gonna maintain my stance that the Commander Ban List is fundamentally 3 lists: cards that don’t work with 4 players (Limited Resources, etc), cards that don’t work with 40 life (Griselbrand, etc), and cards that need to be banned because Magic players are sickos that keep trying to play them despite knowing they’re harmful (Iona, Hullbreacher, etc). All 4 of the new bans fall into the last category (tho Crypt also is the second category). Nadu monopolizes time, Dockside warps the whole game around it (why cEDH decks play so many clones), and Crypt and Lotus are 0-mana card-neutral acceleration. When Oathbreaker (a commander variant) was officially sanctioned with Crypt and Lotus already banned, it made me suspicious that they wouldn’t stay legal in regular commander forever.
Sol Ring did have a write up about why it wasn’t banned, but honestly they should’ve just said “it’s a pillar of the format and in every commander product, we’re never banning it”. It’s like trying to ban Brainstorm in Legacy or Bolt in Modern. These are pillars of the format, and while they can be format-warping, they’re reasons people play the format.
I also find it interesting that 3 of the 4 cards banned this announcement were explicitly designed for commander. This feels almost like a “please stop designing for us” message from the RC to WotC.