Looking over the comments so far I see many folks listening at 75dB max, that's cool. You guys could easily play that loud with a 2.3 watt Decware amp. Or any low power, 10 watt or less amp, even with low sensitivity speakers, Just sayin'.
Wattage is overrated. Its about quality not quantity. I use my 35 watts tube amp to drive my speakers KEF Q900's and it is more than good enough. Although I can drive it up to eardamaging levels, I realy dont want to.
I did for years, using dual mono PP 6v6 then 2a3 amps. But it wasn't until I went 300 watt class D monoblocks that bass truly came into its own, and at the same sound levels. Tempted to get a pair of active crossovers and go biamped dual mono with the 2a3s on top, but that would bring up the subject of the unbearably complicated volume knob.
You're right. Even if I didn't listen at lower volumes, listening louder would be for short periods of time, maybe 10 to 20 minutes and for harder rock music or really dynamic music. Of course the desire to listen loudly has changed as I get older too. Listening to classical and other period music, jazz, acoustic, etc., there is a level I prefer for long listening sessions over several hours in my current environment. For dynamic music I tend to listen directly and with full attention and while I may do the same with more level music, that music allows me to do other things with concentration without leaving the music altogether. There's also the neighbors one has to consider albeit grudgingly. So I have become accustomed to lower levels over time. I also prefer listening to recorded music over live venues which are likely to damage your hearing, I did enough of that in my youth and can't hear much above 13K Hz. Not to say I don't enjoy live venues but harder music or a traditional rock concert is no longer a desire, hasn't been for a long time. Having a truncated frequency range now may be a reason why I find a Definitive SM45 duller than my other speakers while others find it bright as it spikes up past my hearing threshold or because it is more dynamic than other bookshelves/standmounts. So for me to do reviews that someone younger with a healthier hearing range of frequencies wouldn't be accurate. But I do like Focal and Triangle as well as other speakers with a nice, more detailed midrange and highs as long as the upper mids aren't too pronounced relative to other frequencies (so bright amps are a no go). I also like digital formats but have yet to start streaming as I have hundreds of CDs which continue to be readily available used and are inexpensive in comparison to vinyl. I have listened to vinyl on more capable equipment and while it sounds nice, I am not willing to spend the time, energy and investment $$$ to switch over. Given my listening habits, digital formats are fine and are less expensive and more readily available used. This year, I will start looking at headphones for a desktop alternative although I much prefer a two channel speaker with or without a sub setup. My preferred listening habits have allowed me to enjoy lower power amps thereby downsizing my equipment. For many of us we were seemingly lusting for more powerful, heavier equipment while now I am happy with having a smaller, lighter footprint with an integrated and without losing too much of the SQ I had. Finding smaller speakers has been more of an issue and I just started dabbling with dacs. So what do I have now? A small 40 watt Keces E40 which offers low distortion along its' power curve with a Lavaudio DS600 (needed optical for movies) and a Marantz CD6006 all to drive through Focal 807Ws. I prefer the AKM and CS (Marantz) sound over ESS for most music however I needed a basic unit that had some capabilities while I decide what features I need and prices I am willing to invest in. An amp or CD player I can have repaired. To me Dacs are less likely to be repairable at least for my local repair guy and it may make more sense to replace so I don't want to buy a really expensive one especially as they continue to evolve at a rapid pace. I did try a Topping D70s and really liked it, the best of the bunch I tried and touted close to sounding like R2R dacs for the price but I found I liked it more for some music while I liked the dac in my Hegel h160 better for other music. The differences were in clarity vs warmth which could bleed into the music making it have softer vs sharper edges. I liked both however. If I were planning on keeping the Hegel the Topping would have been a good candidate. But I am giving up XLR so certain dacs may be overkill albeit $700 isn't really outrageous. If I end up subscribing to Tidal and am happy with that, I will revisit dacs and perhaps the same Topping. No SMSL or Loxjie dac I tried ever made a tight connection with optical, hence I likely wouldn't consider them. How difficult is it to make an optical input secure? While the Lavaudio isn't the same SQ as the AKM in the Hegel or the Topping D70s, it suffices for movies and is ok for music as I can switch directly to the Marantz for that. One thing the Lavaudio does do to my surprise is to play SACD and HDCD formats and yes, there is a difference! I feel I underutilized the Hegel with the equipment I have and the levels I listen at. It is far more useful for someone with large and/or hard to drive speakers who wants to listen to music requiring more power in watts and current. That's the logic I went through. Just to be clear the Hegel is a great amp but lifting 40 lbs to swap dacs and speakers got old as I get older. I also like class D chip amps well enough for desktop and on the go use. I would like to try an Omega speaker and if I like its' sound presentation it could be a replacement offering a smaller size with greater efficiency. There are a few other small amps I would like to try/have including tubes. So, there you have it. If you are younger or still want to rock out or just want to experience music as Steve describes in this video, just buy according to your needs/desires/abilities, etc., and enjoy.
Speaking of volume and how to listen my favorite way is to listen at night with lights off and/or eyes closed. Really crystallizes the listening experience for me.
I have learned to train my hearing so that I can listen to my music (both jazz and classical) as quietly as possible. Tricked like this, my brain even blocks out my tinnitus and I can really enjoy the recordings again.
Living in a house with 5 people makes it pretty hard for me to listen over 80 db if it all. I am usually limited to around 70 before I start disturbing someone. Whenever everyone is out of the house it is an absolute treat for me. But even then ,I get so used to listening quieter that I don’t crank it as much as I think I want to.
I use Steve's method of marking down the volume setting and although the next listen might not be at that exact level at least it will be very close and not be way too loud or way too quiet so as to spoil the effect of the music. I listen mostly to classical music and with it's greater dynamic range it can take several minutes to zero in on the right volume which of course is what I have to do with a new recording anyways.
Steve is the Neil Young of RUclips, just banging these reviews out leaving his review buddies in the dust - love it. Always different and very informative. Thank you, Brian PS: Steve I really do appreciated all that you do and a big thumbs up for the music reviews that you sprinkle into your videos.
For those of us who grew up in apartments with thin walls between, listening at low volumes was required. Being able to blast your music and make noise at all hours of the night was an important benefit to buying a single home for us suburbans.
I like to adjust the volume to where the sound of a solo voice sounds the right size, the same for a solo instrument. I love your idea about sitting quietly for several minutes before you begin your listening session. That never occurred to me. Thank you, I know that will make a big difference.
As I've got a bit older protecting my hearing has also become a factor to be taken into account in any listening session. Love my system want to listen to great music forever.
I think one reason many of us listen at lower volumes as we age is that we become more aware of our personal hearing loss and the damage we have done (or continue to do) to our hearing by listening at loud volumes. Hearing loss is inevitable for most as we age, but can be much worse if the ears are abused with lots of loud music. I love my music loud, but at 56, I am more aware than ever of protecting the hearing I have left, so I am much more careful about volume than when I was younger.
My most favorite listening: very late (or early?) hours, around 2AM, I turn the volume down to barely perceptible. Just sit in the dark for a while, on the border to dozing off to sleep, with eyes closed. After a while will come a moment when the sound just opens up, as if the brain and the ears have shifted a good number of gears, and I am rewarded by sound perception and quality that is not possible during daytime. The volume is 20B peak at these sessions - it's very far from speakers and amplifiers distotion limits, plus, line AC quality and low background noise floor is the best at this time, hence the listening quality is much elevated. I have tried "louder" listening sessions at 2am, with volume peaks to 50dB, but found that going lower is actually better, and at a certain volume you will reach a threshold where the perception will suddenly change. have fun! ; One caveat: you will need a system with vanishingly low noise floor to pull off this trick. ;)
This is one of my favorite of your videos ever. Because it's about mindfulness and being totally in the moment and the experience. I find that little tweaks in volume help the music play the room just right. You could continue on the theme by discussing volume knobs and remotes. My Emotiva pre-amp is very good in most respects, but it has a cheap ass volume knob and an even worse remote. Tweaking volume should be tactile and satisfying. I mostly adjust on my iPad through Roon and it's quite imprecise and awkward with a slider. But still, it works.
I have found, although still music specific, the more powerful my systems have become the lower the volume level I use. It seems I get better dynamics at lower volume levels with the increased power.
75dB max? I'm 66, living in a rural town in NE Oregon with pastures between houses. I can turn it up and do often. I've finally hooked up to Tidal and with quality, clear recordings and I often find myself immersed in music. My subwoofer and two towers (all B&W) are sounding their best after some tweaks, producing low and controlled base. Just a modest system. Feeling the air move is awesome, similar to guitar players needing that air pressure feedback to play their best. As far as volume adjustment, I'll sit with the remote in hand attempting to find that ultimate performance. Turning it up on soft passages, turning it down in anticipation of passages with more distortion, higher volume, etc. Of course with the remote I can more easily find that sweet volume level you talked about. That subtle change can be amazing. All that said, it seems not many systems sound that good at low levels, but I've not lived with that real high end stuff. Does that make a difference? The exercise is interesting, I'll have to try it. Not all of us old guys want the volume low. Good thing is I've been able to take care of my ears and can take it. Good stuff Steve
@4:45 "...and the it gets really loud -- it's like blowing you away, because it's so freak'n loud" I find the issue with loud sections to be the result of the frequency of the item that is loud. If the drums suddenly have a slam, I doubt that anyone would take issue with that. But when an upper mid-range electric guitar suddenly gets alarmingly loud, our ears are more sensitive to that frequency, and it actually hurts our ears. In many songs, the lead singer is recorded on his own stem. And then the mixing engineer (or is it the mastering engineer?) raises the lead singer's voice so loud, that the singer not only drowns out the drums, but his voice hurts our ears. And if you were ever in a room with someone whaling away at his drums, you know that no one's voice can drown out those drums. And yet, that is what is released by the studios. Dynamics is what makes music fantastic. The yahoos in the studio, that make a mockery out of the dynamics, are the ones that ruin the otherwise amazing performances. And those same yahoos ruin music with compression, too.
I used an SPL meter to set 75dB at listening position, where peaks might reach 79 or so. ie. Keep it below levels that start to cause permanent hearing damage. I haven't touched the volume control for 2 channel in over a year. However, my digital preamp does have sound contouring (tone controls at 6 frequency ranges) and have lowest bass up by 2dB, highest treble up by 1.5dB. This smile shape in the frequency gain contouring makes the instruments feel more present. The speakers (Legacy Audio Aeris) have two 12 inch subwoofers each so you can really feel the air move at this volume level. It never sounds too loud but the sound feels big. It is that easy bigness feel, where the room is pressurized without the volume being at uncomfortable levels. I do think that the speaker makes a big difference in what volume level is needed to provide a satisfying experience. I don't listen to classical music. I have noticed that volume control adjustment is needed for this type of music, due to the large dynamic range.
I’ve been enjoying your work for several years now, on the appletv. This was such a fine piece I’m compelled to comment, just to thank you for what you do. I’ve been listening critically since about 1968, with excellence in audio being defined differently at different times, and by different music. All that said, the “appropriate” volume level, for me, is determined by the music itself. I recall a moment in the early seventies when my cousin David hollered down the stairs “it was made loud to be played loud”. The music was Humble Pie, and he was correct. Symphonies also demand to be played at a level approaching the live performance. Vocals, folk, Mantovani, and pop, volume varies with the situation. Anyhow, thanks for the work, this one in particular. Keep on at it.
Sort of thinking about this the opposite way, I remember the first time I heard Beethoven’s 9th live and those first few notes hit and they were so much louder then I’d ever heard them at home on the stereo. My jaw dropped, not because those notes were loud, but because my brain looked ahead and did the calculation about how loud it was going to get. I was not at all disappointed when it got there and I’ve never heard Beethoven the same way since (even if I still listen to it quietly at home).
So glad you discussed this Steve. I find this to be a significant detail for getting right into a 'proper' listening session with minimal fuss...and by 'proper' I mean when I want to fully hear what my time and dollars invested in this hobby have resulted in. So, for years I've been labeling albums as you described with the exact volume I settled on as giving the ideal experience (albums that I would ever listen to again critically anyhow). For me, this means the level that best provides the illusion of a real performance in front of me - so, yes high peak db's in many cases. Somewhat surprisingly, and probably because I only attempt such listening sessions when I'm of a certain state of mind (stressed over work ... don't bother, no chance of getting to a mental state allowing an illusory 3D event happening) and with room lighting controlled/dimmed to usual, I find that the volume I previously determined is very close if not dead on. This practice definitely helps avoid distractions such as "I remember it sounding different last time, maybe need to play with volume". At this point, I'm confident enough in this practice that if I don't get a good experience right away, then only two remaining possibilities...either I'm not in the right mood/state of mind, or hi-fi system issue. Also means it's unlikely I would ever by a pre-amp without a visual volume reference. Big thanks for all you're doing for the audiophile community!
After several years without funds for a simple music listening set up, as opposed to home theatre or mobile devices, I I am putting together a home stereo with the intent of lower volume listening. I am choosing equipment like the Klipsch rp600m mated to a low watt class A amp and a good digital/CD front end to break out my extensive CD collection that has been in storage for the past 30 years. I am quite surprised how much of the music I never heard and this is coming from a 62 year old with older ears. Getting excited about learning the new tech and what is possible with a modest budget. Thanks Steve for opening my ears again to the possibilities.
Steve, I've been with you since the beginning. Its not about how perfect every quantifiable parameter is, its about just enjoying the music, period. Stop judging and just spent time in the present moment, that's what it is all about.
About 5 decades ago, the owner of a rather high-end stereo shop told me one of the primary requisites of speaker selection should be low volume performance; HOW they sound and what is LOST as the volume is lowered. This surely could apply to other items in the system, too. Of course, we've come a long way in 50 years, but I believe lots of folks don't "low-level-listen" because of system components' inability to produce uniform quality across the dynamic spectrum.
Very interesting topic. Thank you for making this video. I think it's a mind thing - sometimes, less is more. But, at times, from a low key start, volume levels will also be dependent on genre of music & how one's playlist progresses.. Call it warm up for the brain if you will. That's how I start most of my listening sessions, be it critical or casual listening. That few minutes of silence before starting anecdote is very interesting. I think the trick is about resetting one's 'palette' from whatever one was doing & gently easing into a listening session. Like taking a sip of water before enjoying a cup of exquisite specialty coffee or tea. I must try this out. Thank you again!
When I was young a disposition so proud. I listened to music in one level, loud. Now a shroud no a cloud looms dark uninvited, but allowed. I know now like a furrow fresh ploughed I was in with the crowd. With less decibels now the music's endowed I'm still wowed.
Being in my late 50s, I can relate very much to this topic, thanks for the video. I have recently discovered that I enjoy low level listening much more than listening at high volumes. In particular, I now have two systems, one for near-field listening, which provides me with great detail at low volumes (a Kef LS-50W system in my living room - in effect, this is like listening on headphones without headphones), and a more powerful full range system for real life listening and high volume. Having both, I can safely say that I listen to my low volume nearfield system a lot more than the « full volume » system. Note: Vinyl listening in my experience requires a higher volume than digital listening, maybe because of the higher noise floor of that technology (?).
Similar, but different...I attended a concert at Wolf Trap in Virginia in the 1980s. WT is an indoor/outdoor venue that has covered seating as well as lawn seating. While I have little specific recollection of the program that night (I know it included Beethoven), the concert prelude provided by Mother Nature was exceptional. There were a couple of moments of rolling thunder that quietened the crowd, the lights dimmed...and rain began to fall. I’m convinced that the programmers allowed us to soak in the ambiance for an extra minute or two. That floor music, light rain on the roof, light breeze across the venue, was magical, and lasted through a few movements in the orchestral performance.
I grew up listening to 80s new wave and electronica at dance clubs and at dance club levels in my car (I'm lucky to have my hearing). I am now 53 and I still love Depeche Mode, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, etc as well as other base heavy music, at 90+ dB levels (for limited periods). I think I will always have a love for visceral, chest pounding, heavy percussion music.
In response to your query, yes, I think it's a good topic. Maybe my favorite Audiophiliac show. I confess to a spiral notebook with volume settings to about 20 songs going back the 20 years I've had my Denon/Magnepan/REL combo. Now that I have a cheap spl meter I've added that info as well. 80-85 db peaks seem to be the sweet spot for me. In my truck my Alpine system seems to be the most fun at 85-90 db, but I know my gauge isn't picking up the bass sub accurately. It will play at 100 clean but I care too much about my hearing. I'm 56 and holding on to it the best I can. Side note - my 32 year old Maggie delaminated and I have spousal approval for a pair of LRS or maybe even the .7. I plan on possibly matching them with a Schiity Freya Vidar combo based largely on your reviews. Thanks
Thanks for this topic, Steve. I find that, at 66, I'm listening much quieter in my home. I wish I could do the meditation on silence but unfortunately it becomes a meditation on my tinnitus. Also, I have no problem putting the 'devices' aside but I will admit that the album cover or CD booklet are an integral part of the listening experience for me.
You CAN still meditate on the available silence and this kind of meditation will calm your nerves, which I've found improves my tinnitus (sometimes). The instruction is to NOT get emotionally or judgementally involved with the tinnitus, which is also part of improving listening (making it less about thinking about the music).
I think about this a lot. When playing electric guitar, the guitar's volume knob is a big part of the instrument because I can make adjustments on the fly. I usually set up my guitar amp just below breakup level, so kicking in a booster pedal or making a volume change can drastically alter the timbre of the instrument. This is especially true when using analog fuzz pedals. Dialing back the volume cleans up the sound. The same thing can happen with home audio. Even with the best sound reproduction systems, our ears and brains distort music in subtle ways. When listening at higher volumes, we can often hear frequencies we couldn't hear before while other frequencies fall away. Thinsk of spicy food and how the spice can suddenly obliterate more subtle flavors. And when listening at low volumes, we often have to focus more closely to hear the details. Think of a person telling a compelling story with a soft voice at a dinner party. They will absolutely command the room. I should also mention that there are musical experiences that absolutely extend beyond our ears. A My Bloody Valentine concert is felt as much as it is heard. The entire body becomes a receiver when seeing the band Swans live. I doubt many of us have the capability to replicate those experiences at home, and that makes me happy. After all, live music should hold onto those things that make it worth seeking out in this world of disposable music everywhere.
Great topic! makes me think of an interview I read of Peter Walker in it he described how he designed the original Quad ESL, he started with the level of live music and what it would take to reproduce it in an English living room. This was before stereo and living rooms were smaller and his idea of music was really ensemble classical, well,?not for everyone. I have a pair of quads and with a 20 watt amp they were designed to have they do real well in my small though not so Victorian living room - mysteriously dynamic as hell & with palpable low end. My amps are Pass F4’s the preamp is a Pass BA-3. The volume control strangely could be anywhere it’s always polite and it never plays too loud.
I really love this one. The dimension behind the most (seemingly) rudimentary aspect of amplified music is an awesome topic for reflection. I'll be thinking about this one for a long time.
A very good topic, Steve! From my point of view, volume is a very important interface between physiology and emotion, between overwhelming experience and the threshold of pain, between increasing tension and being drugged up. In addition, the stereo system often has its sweet spot. I love my Stirling BBc LS3/6 for their tonal colour. But they are at the end of their sound pressure capacity where a Klipsch starts:) That's why I change speakers from time to time. You had a video years ago where you described your Quad ESL in a way that they even influence your music style more and more. I don't want it to get that far. But I am developing an ear for when loud is "too loud" for a particular speaker, and when soft is "too soft" for a particular music experience.
I love when you get the volume just right for that live level experience. It’s also cool to listen really low different sounds come through accentuated especially if you have speakers that can produce great bass at low volumes. I agree a pause with silence really clears the pallet - kind of like wine tasting. It’s a reset. Listening LOUD with a smooth clean warm sound system is totally amazing! It doesn’t even seem loud. Then you take that silence pause and go back - wow!
Reminds me of going out and looking for my first house. Went to look at one, and next door there was someone playing their stereo at true concert volume - sounded like a lot of firepower, not some cheapie system maxed out. Passed on the house but I would’ve loved to have seen the system.
i think your absolutely correct. it's amazing how much more perceptive your ears get when it's been really quite in the room and seems to bring out those little nuances.
Good subject 😜.volume is mood /source music dependent.However ,many of us grew up listening to cheap/bad sounding systems that needed something!! So, the natural thing to do was to crank it up!! Many of us got used to listening to music loud, regardless of the quality of the equipment that we have since aquiered.I do have the equipment to produce the crisp,clean, chest thumping feeling of being at live performance.also,I have the equipment to produce all the subtle nuances of chamber music at low levels. Volume also effects the tonality, soundstage, imaging and depth.Your right Steve,it is complicated,but getting it right produce's that Magic!! Thanks,Chris.
I listen at different volumes depending on how I feel. I do enjoy short and loud sessions but if it’s just for casual listening I’m around 75-80db. But when I’m going for a visceral exp it’s north of 95. My speakers blow me away and the louder the better... till it’s not comfortable. I think the sweet spot is 90-100db. I’ve never made my ears ring from a session. So not night club loud. I really enjoy fining new music, and I’m going on the hunt soon. Been a few years. Need to heel up a pre amp but need a DAC as well. I really like a super low noise level. I like the space between and the more dynamic the better. Who knows, maybe I’ll decide to start making my own just the way I want to hear it...🍻
Excellent subject for analysis ! Ideally a sound proof listening room would be ideal against ambient noise ! Such as car traffic refrigerators air-conditioniners lawnmowers ,ect ! Listening at low volumes adds a certain quality to the music.... I think !!
Hi Steve, You and I are about the same age and I too listen at lower levels today than when I was younger. Music taste has not changed. And, as I say this I find myself speaking at lower and more even levels as well. I had not thought of the speaking aspect too. I enjoyed this perspective of our listening habits 👂
Fantastic topic. Thanks for bringing it up. On my system the music really blooms at 75db plus so I go there for the most realistic sound I can get. Lower levels have good dynamics with a 250w/ch rms into 8 ohm amp. At 56 years old I almost never go above 85db to preserve my hearing.
Hello Steve I follow you from France in Paris city. I am always happy to see your video. I am agree with you about listening level who changes all life long. But I want also feeling the impact of the music and I am so happy then I feel like younger. So great and fun. Thanks for all. I'm Rick from France I'm 52 years old. I love music I need music to live in this crazy world at that moment so rude with covid 😄🎼😌
Steve - I really appreciate this post, thank you. I'm a 64-68 dBA listener, optimally, BUT it's tricky, right? I have spent 30+ years trying to find the exact, optimum mix of lower-level dB with suitable dynamic response of the equipment as the music reaches my ears. I ascribe to your preferred "low power/high quality" approach (I'm a Nelson Pass admirer for sure!). I find my ears best suited to receive the quieter levels very early in the morning and later in the evening when all ambient sound (and my blood pressure and mental mood) is lower/quieter/calmer (as you note, turn off the workl for a few minutes and let yourself hear). The brilliant and generous Siegfried Linkwitz spent his life exploring this concept of how our ears receive sound (and of course what speakers deliver it best), and your post reminded me of the incredible wealth of knowledge he left for us on his simple, but fascinating, website. I've been re-reading some of it this morning after watching this. Thanks for your work and your passion for this hobby!
I not only agree with Steve's opinions but would go further and say volume is EVERYTHING in terms of how you perceive music. As someone who mixes records, relative volume between different elements is the foundation of a good mix. I've found that it's not necessary to listen to different speakers to evaluate a mix but simply to listen to one set of speakers at different volumes give me the information I need to adjust a mix. Finally listening on headphones is what tempts me to listen at high volumes. It's not good for your ears but it's hard for me to resist turning the music up under those circumstances.
@@stephenstevens6573 Actually, I deliberately bought a pre-amp without a remote, TO get me up out of my chair more often and that might mean I'm up more than once for a song. I like what that does for my legs, balance, and my mind.
Thank you Steve, for the great videos you produce they help us get through these interesting times, times. You know you as a society we are "Almost Famous" as they will be talking about our situation for hundreds of years. I listen as rule at 75 - 80dbs - Music Truly Matters!
I tend to listen at levels approaching "performance" given the differences between my listening space and the venue, studio or club or auditorium, the level of processing during the recording and engineering, and a myriad of things for which I can't account nor control. So, usually louder more often than softer when my intent is to really sit down and listen to the music.
Agreed, well said. I believe home listening volume levels should ideally approximate the typical volume levels of that particular genre of music in a live performance venue, with reasonable reduction of excessively loud volumes typical of some genres. Of course not everyone has the luxury of those choices (with speakers as opposed to headphones) when consideration for family or neighbors is a factor. I have difficulty remaining engaged by the music when listening at significantly lower volume levels.
Excellent discussion and my comment is that at 69 I have a low tolerance for compressed music, regardless of the artist/musicians. The more compressed the recording, the less likely it will ever be played on my home system. And I find it interesting in the comments that there are concerns for loss of hearing and 'protecting one's hearing' by avoiding louder volume levels. This seems paradoxical. I have had hearing loss during my lifetime, but with age comes an appreciation for hearing music at its fullest potential, and playing certain recordings at a lower volume just for hearing protective issues, makes the experience so much less enjoyable.
I have a big room, +30' each side with 17' sloped ceiling. I have an inexpensive sound bar I use for softer background music. And frankly I have always been impressed with how good this cheap things is. 4.1 with a small sub. They claim it reaches 101dbSPL. I have not tried. I pull my Maggies (1.7i) out for my regular "concerts". In listening positions (Maggies need space and they block access to other rooms so can not be left in their listening spots) I play at whatever the music says is correct. Small jazz combo? 72-75dbSPL? Rock I can get to about 85dbSPL before blowing fuses in my ADCOM GFA555! What always amazes visitors is how high my sound level gets without them thinking it is "loud". Like when they try to talk over it and realize they have to yell to be heard. That is the difference between high sound pressure levels and distorted loudness. A small low powered system can SOUND loud at low dbSPL because of distortion. While a really good system can reach higher dbSPLs and it not be as noticed as such.
It’s almost as if you snuck into my listening room this past Sunday and watched me spend four hours doing nothing but volume checks. I have a relatively modest system comprising Rotel Amps, B&W CM9 S2s, two B&W subwoofers, Marantz CD player, Wadia Transport, and Wadia 151PowerDAC AMP/DAC in a room that measures 14x 26. I ran a series of three sessions each listening to a diverse range of music ranging from Gluck’s Don Juan to John Mayer’s Where The Light Is and IZ’s Wonderful World - all in CD format. That was followed by MP3’s, ACC files and AAIF files from my MacBook Pro, and lastly, streamed two select cuts from Tower Of Power’s “Your Still A Young Man” and “634-5789.” I listened to select cuts from all of the above at various volume levels and I was stunned at how much detail is lost or gained at high, mid and low volumes, depending on the format (CD, Streaming, MP3’s, etc.) as well as the type of music (Classical, Rock, Jazz/R&B, etc.) None of my listening was scientific in nature. Just me, a dimly & lit silent room, and my remote to adjust volume. Interestingly to me was that I thought I would get much more out of streaming cuts at a higher volume but it was exactly the opposite. I am able to pick up very subtle highs at lower volume than blasting it. Same for my MP3’s. More detailed at low to mid range volumes versus an all-out assault on my ears. A great exercise in throttle management versus tweaking and tuning and moving hardware. Bravo for a great post!
What equipment do you need to put together a system that sounds engaging at low volumes? Is there some magic number between speaker sensitivity and power? Does speaker size and room size matter? If you have a system that you enjoy at lower volumes, please list what you have.
I can remember the moment when it dawned on me WHY so many audiophiles like intimate jazz (Diana Krall)...because it’s recorded so quiet that you can crank it up for more detail without hurting your ears.
The canvas she presents is virtually perfect in many of her songs, and she 'touches much of what is available with the various instruments and her voice. I've been studying her initial release, "Stepping Out" and she's got it all there: texture, soundstage depth and width, truly beautiful songs by both lyric and vocals. She must be a very focused, disciplined, very careful sort of person.
Steve, a really great great job you did here about the psychology of loudness of music. I would just add that besides everything you mentioned, the optimum SPL depends on the genre of the music and even the movements of the music in a given piece. Take Stairway to Heaven for example. I typically listen to the beginning at relatively low to moderate SPL maybe 80-90 dB then when the drums start I usually bring the SPL up just a bit. Then when the last climatic part starts, I usually crank it up to 100dB+ to get the adrenaline flowing and the full tactile effect of the bass frequencies. Then I let my ears rest for a few minutes with no music or quiet music before any more onslaughts.
on the engineering side -- if the dynamic range was controlled with volume automation instead of compression, you can have the best of both worlds. controlled dynamic range, no squashed dynamics. this is obviously easier to do in a DAW than on a console, but both can be done.
All very much true. Our Ear/Brain has its own Volume control (for which we don't have access to the volume Knob, at least not directly), as well our Ear/Brain Volume control is fundamentally more like a Fletcher Munson but one which spans the entire frequency range. So yeah, there is everything that Steve mentioned and more when it comes to our very sophisticated auditory Ear/Brain system. So definitely worth experimenting with all that Steve mentions and more.
Big role in listening at low loudness play the type of sound produced by speakers. Diminished level of crossover frequencies (always affected by phases) which by compensation with higher sopranos may be tolerated nicely at normal; levels produce with turning down sounds stripped of not only those diminished tones but also all sopranos. 400Hz -1000 Hz likely would dominate because low tones get diminished due to physiology of hearing. For that reason for silent listening all band speakers perform much more crispy Depending on room and speaker cabinets bass may be acceptable or not enough.
Watching movies I have a usually fixed reference volume setting that accommodates the most natural/intelligible level of voices, and the rest of the dynamic span then revolves around that. I love the dynamic swings that comes of this, from a whisper-low scene to one that cracks open the roof, so to speak, and it's really about emulating a rather lifelike sonic scenario here; much of the sound scape is for effect, of course, but there's an overall sense that what unspools sonically is about catching a natural-ish equivalent. Haven't measured average SPL's here, but with the more aggressive titles peaks can occasionally hit in the vicinity of 100-105dB's (dB(A)). With music my volume setting can vary quite a bit, depending on the circumstances. More lifelike recordings with actual, wide dynamics tend to call for a fixed volume that's more closely reminiscent of a live event - akin to adjusting the volume for movies, I find - whereas more compressed recordings is really about background (low) level or seated-for-listening mid to high SPL's - whatever the mood dictates. Average actual-listening levels typically sit somewhere in the 70-80dB's range, sometimes a bit lower but rarely higher.
One thing that hit me right away is to remember what it was like to not have a remote control - not being able to make level changes from the best listening position? A very big deal - try starting some music and sitting down to listen, but leave your remote where you can't reach it without getting up. I like the idea presented here of essentially a mental system cleansing, probably relating to currently cached thoughts, prior to listening.
Most of it depends upon mood and genre and why I am listening. If I am listening for background, I just use a Bose mini bluetooth and stream the music. But, when I am listening critically, I will sometimes listen at over 90 db. Usually in the 70 - 80 range. Listening to Count Basie Band, horns can push it over 100 on peaks. Stravinsky will also have a wide range. I appreciate his comments about listening to silence. Adding to this, one thing I listen for, especially with live orchestral music, is the moment after the last note is played and how the sound decays in the hall just prior to applause.
Great shirt! For true, focused listening I average mid 80dB from my chair, head about 8' from the speaker. I've been a little obsessed with this for a couple years. I'm anxious for live music to start up again so I can do some more field experimentation. Low 80s is consistent with live jazz piano/acoustic bass/horn depending on how far from the stage I've been. Rock is all over the map, of course. Edit: My amp is only 48 wpc and the volume dial is never halfway up.
micro dynamics are the key.......listen with 1/2 db steps to control volume well...Rock on Steve!
3 года назад
I think the best volume is the one just before the speakers go into distortion. I think that volume point will be the "sweet spot" between amplifier, speakers and room and you. Of course, I don't always hear like that, it depends on my predisposition. But that load of energy in which the loudspeakers are at their limit of control and without distruction. Fast and safe ...
It is so curious that I was thinking of the exact same topic yesterday, while doing a night quieter session. And now you come with this video. Completely agree on the experience difference it makes regarding the volume you choose. Also, depending on how resolving the system is (mine is not so much), cranking the volume may blur things a little. Greetings from a huge audiophile fan from Brazil.
As a working bassist, when I need to really understand the bass pitch and timbre, I always dial back the volume. When I perform, I’m always aware of volume, pitch and tone.
I love listening to songs with the vocals on the soft whisper type. I listen to the songs loud and it is a wonderful experience. Like a beast singing into your ear!
For me it depends upon the dynamic range of any particular musical selection. With classical music which has a wider dynamic range with various degrees of intensity, ensemble size, etc it might be much different then from listening to high intensity rock/pop/jazz. Being a brass player I like the brass ensemble sections to sound full and “live” 👍🏻 to each his own. As I age my hearing sensitivity is quite different from my younger days so I may probably be listening to my recordings louder now due to my age related and work related hearing loss. (I taught Band for 36 years and gigged with a very loud horn band “long ago” and that exposure also affected my hearing “health”)
I find I am typically listening at an average of 84dB. Peaking at 90 is my max comfort. Some tracks are best at 78-80. I have found that as the system improved, it is naturally enjoyable at lower and lower sound pressure. Thought provoking discussion as always. Love the variety of all topics around audio enthusiasm.
Ear and hearing protection are ongoing issues for me- I rarely listen quite as loud as I'd truly like, though I still immensely enjoy my music. Unless I'm feeling particularly high-strung, I like to listen to my music loud, 80-85 db at the middle level, 85-90 db peaks (same level as in my teens- and I'm in my mid-50s)- but I almost never do. I typically set the volume to peak at 75-80 db, with the middle of the music between 70-75 db because A) I have mild hyperacusis, which worsens with longer exposure to louder volumes; B) wish to preserve my hearing; and C) don' want to piss off my neighbors. Testing suggests that my hearing is equivalent on average to someone 15 years or more younger than me, so my long-term caution has paid off, and my (townhouse) neighbors have never complained! I encourage people to really research and endeavor to preserve their hearing as much as reasonably possible, through moderate playing volumes, ear plugs in noisy environments, and the like. Also beware- if you ride/drive a lot in cars and you like to play your music in them the db's for satisfactory sound are often much higher than at home, because the baseline of car noise typically requires higher db levels (e.g., maybe 10 db higher) to be perceived as equivalent to what you hear at home- and so in the long term, incautious playing of loud music while driving can pose a greater threat to your ears than elsewhere. Amplified loud music and headphones obviously can do that, too.
I've four prefered volume levels ... 1) 30 to 45 dB when my wife is in the adjacent room, to not disturb her. Bass boost equalization enabled at such low levels. 2) 45 to 65 dB for the majority of general listening, usually w/o bass equalization at higher output. 3) 65 to 75 dB when watching movies, to match levels commensurate with action therein. 4) As loud as the amplifier will go to test its' limits a) to just have fun, b) in an effort to make serious evaluations (ear plugs are often worn in this situation). 100+ dB SPL can be experienced, depending on available amplifier power. No bass equalization is ever used here.
True hifi, has always been, for me, that feeling of the band, singer, or music is being played live in my room. This takes power, and power cost money which is why I purchased a used McIntosh MC2205. That amp, the tube preamp I chose, and the speakers gave me those goosebumps, and chills I desire when listening, it was so good! I'm not sure what db I was listening at, but the needles on the blue meters were peaking toward their limit at times. I do listen low as well, especially on classical music when I just want to relax, but overall, if I'm in the mood to listen to music, I want it as realistic as possible which usually means fairly loud.
How loud or quiet your listening space is makes a big difference in how loud you need to play the music. I live in an apartment about 140 feet above a street that's very busy all day and into the night, so most of the day music has to compete with traffic noise. Fortunately, my neighbors are usually quiet themselves, and don't seem sensitive to the volumes at which I usually play music.
All my speakers over the years have exhibitted the same phenomenon: You need to reach a certain volume level before the speakers 'open out' and give you the imagery and insight you are looking for. I've always assumed all speakers were like this. As a result, whilst i can listen at lower levels, I cant for what i consider hi fi listening. Lower level stuff is more like background radio and you can hear its coming from boxes, but these disappear once you reach what i consider 'working volume'. As a result my volume levels are most often dictated by this 'working volume'.
Incredibly topical in fact. I do tend to listen averaging under 80db, but peaks can reach higher. I have a pretty nasty noise floor where I live with an interstate nearby. Depending on the wind I might have a 70db noise floor outside my front door and almost 40db inside my living room. Less wind can carry less sound I guess and reduce my indoor noise floor into the 30db range. Occasionally I do kick it up to higher db to see what it sounds like, but it’s not sustainable to listen to enjoyably really.
Volume levels vary in this household according to moods & motivation. Can't listen to AC/DC at low volume while doing housework, can't listen to my favorite jazz during cocktail hour at ear splitting levels. Thus the need for highly accurate and efficient speakers that can assume different roles when called upon.
@@SubTroppo 25+ years making furniture/cabinetry along with a fondness for piercing guitar has wreaked its havoc upon the ole timpanic membranes. Not only is silence golden, but a rare luxury of the wiser man indeed.
I have also found that I’m listening to much lower volume than before. I think it started with that I didn’t want to disturb one of my cats when she became very sick. And I found that I really liked listening to music at low volume. But I have one problem with this; I can’t find a speaker that is really good at low volume listening with classical music and a 12w amp. Steve: I really like your tips on good recordings and music. Have bought some of them. Holly Cole is my new favoruite. Especially the album you talked about; Temptation. Many thanks Steve.
Whatever you hear.... You got the right level if it feels good for you at the moment! I got no problem to hear "Welcome to the machine" beyond 90 dB. Especially the multichannel SACD. But i don´t wanna hear Kat Edmonson at that level! You did it right when you listening to your music and notice.... Uhhh.... Goosebumps... 👌
65 to 75 db is my sweet spot. I like a comment you made Steve about trying to listen at lower levels at night time with the lights out really makes a difference and can be just as rewarding.
I totally agree. Something very special about listening to music late at night with the lights out. I also find I'm quite happy with a far lower volume than during the daytime. Probably a good thing to keep the peace with the neighbours!
When it comes to dynamics, not enough attention is given to Zappa’s LSO album. Especially, the composition of Bogus Pomp at the 18 min. mark. The variations in levels, separation and frequencies are amazing. I just adjust the volume as if I was middle third row.
Orchestral music (ie: Bruckner's 4th) is particularly challenging. In reality the dynamics are extreme. Hard to reproduce without either (i) parts being virtually inaudible or, (ii) waking neighbors in the next street!! I normally keep it below 75dB, and even then my wife tells me it's too loud (!). In the days we'd go to orchestral concerts I'd give her a good raised eyebrow look during fortissimo sections - an orchestra can be seriously loud.
Some songs you want to play loud some softer. I have thin walls and have to listen quietly all the time 😔 Some times I use auto volume, but I feel it takes away from the music so I only use it for movies. Still after 4 years of listening to music at a level mostly under 60 db I have found there are things in the music that come out more at low volume listening that I can’t hear when it’s as loud as I believe it would be in real life. As if some of the louder sounds cancel out the softer ones.
80-85 dB @ 3.5 meters from loudspeakers with peaks around 97 dB. That's what I am reading now on my app with Steely Dan's "Haithian Divorce". And I can still hear the clicks from my "silent" keyboard. But with Mars from "The Planets" it gets noticeably louder ....
With good recordings, that meaning files, my system sounds the best at rather loud volumes. That meaning, I'd guess around 85-90 db. So, that's how I listen, when I just listen, during the day. I enjoy the visceral experience, when I can really feel the lows in my body. With my system, it's also the voices, that only sound extremely life-like and present at higher volumes. When I crank it up (only with good files, or it get harsh), the music sounds more real to me. But that's really a per-person, per- system thing. However, sometimes I really am in a mood to listen quietly and have a more intimate experience.
Looking over the comments so far I see many folks listening at 75dB max, that's cool. You guys could easily play that loud with a 2.3 watt Decware amp. Or any low power, 10 watt or less amp, even with low sensitivity speakers, Just sayin'.
👍👍
Wattage is overrated. Its about quality not quantity. I use my 35 watts tube amp to drive my speakers KEF Q900's and it is more than good enough. Although I can drive it up to eardamaging levels, I realy dont want to.
I did for years, using dual mono PP 6v6 then 2a3 amps. But it wasn't until I went 300 watt class D monoblocks that bass truly came into its own, and at the same sound levels. Tempted to get a pair of active crossovers and go biamped dual mono with the 2a3s on top, but that would bring up the subject of the unbearably complicated volume knob.
That is really true. I listen to 85db efficient Dynaudio C1 Conf SIg with a LTA amplifier that maxes out at 13 watts and could not be happier.
You're right. Even if I didn't listen at lower volumes, listening louder would be for short periods of time, maybe 10 to 20 minutes and for harder rock music or really dynamic music. Of course the desire to listen loudly has changed as I get older too. Listening to classical and other period music, jazz, acoustic, etc., there is a level I prefer for long listening sessions over several hours in my current environment. For dynamic music I tend to listen directly and with full attention and while I may do the same with more level music, that music allows me to do other things with concentration without leaving the music altogether.
There's also the neighbors one has to consider albeit grudgingly. So I have become accustomed to lower levels over time. I also prefer listening to recorded music over live venues which are likely to damage your hearing, I did enough of that in my youth and can't hear much above 13K Hz. Not to say I don't enjoy live venues but harder music or a traditional rock concert is no longer a desire, hasn't been for a long time.
Having a truncated frequency range now may be a reason why I find a Definitive SM45 duller than my other speakers while others find it bright as it spikes up past my hearing threshold or because it is more dynamic than other bookshelves/standmounts. So for me to do reviews that someone younger with a healthier hearing range of frequencies wouldn't be accurate. But I do like Focal and Triangle as well as other speakers with a nice, more detailed midrange and highs as long as the upper mids aren't too pronounced relative to other frequencies (so bright amps are a no go).
I also like digital formats but have yet to start streaming as I have hundreds of CDs which continue to be readily available used and are inexpensive in comparison to vinyl. I have listened to vinyl on more capable equipment and while it sounds nice, I am not willing to spend the time, energy and investment $$$ to switch over. Given my listening habits, digital formats are fine and are less expensive and more readily available used.
This year, I will start looking at headphones for a desktop alternative although I much prefer a two channel speaker with or without a sub setup.
My preferred listening habits have allowed me to enjoy lower power amps thereby downsizing my equipment. For many of us we were seemingly lusting for more powerful, heavier equipment while now I am happy with having a smaller, lighter footprint with an integrated and without losing too much of the SQ I had. Finding smaller speakers has been more of an issue and I just started dabbling with dacs.
So what do I have now? A small 40 watt Keces E40 which offers low distortion along its' power curve with a Lavaudio DS600 (needed optical for movies) and a Marantz CD6006 all to drive through Focal 807Ws.
I prefer the AKM and CS (Marantz) sound over ESS for most music however I needed a basic unit that had some capabilities while I decide what features I need and prices I am willing to invest in. An amp or CD player I can have repaired. To me Dacs are less likely to be repairable at least for my local repair guy and it may make more sense to replace so I don't want to buy a really expensive one especially as they continue to evolve at a rapid pace.
I did try a Topping D70s and really liked it, the best of the bunch I tried and touted close to sounding like R2R dacs for the price but I found I liked it more for some music while I liked the dac in my Hegel h160 better for other music. The differences were in clarity vs warmth which could bleed into the music making it have softer vs sharper edges. I liked both however. If I were planning on keeping the Hegel the Topping would have been a good candidate. But I am giving up XLR so certain dacs may be overkill albeit $700 isn't really outrageous. If I end up subscribing to Tidal and am happy with that, I will revisit dacs and perhaps the same Topping. No SMSL or Loxjie dac I tried ever made a tight connection with optical, hence I likely wouldn't consider them. How difficult is it to make an optical input secure? While the Lavaudio isn't the same SQ as the AKM in the Hegel or the Topping D70s, it suffices for movies and is ok for music as I can switch directly to the Marantz for that. One thing the Lavaudio does do to my surprise is to play SACD and HDCD formats and yes, there is a difference!
I feel I underutilized the Hegel with the equipment I have and the levels I listen at. It is far more useful for someone with large and/or hard to drive speakers who wants to listen to music requiring more power in watts and current. That's the logic I went through. Just to be clear the Hegel is a great amp but lifting 40 lbs to swap dacs and speakers got old as I get older. I also like class D chip amps well enough for desktop and on the go use.
I would like to try an Omega speaker and if I like its' sound presentation it could be a replacement offering a smaller size with greater efficiency. There are a few other small amps I would like to try/have including tubes. So, there you have it.
If you are younger or still want to rock out or just want to experience music as Steve describes in this video, just buy according to your needs/desires/abilities, etc., and enjoy.
Well I don't know about everybody else but for me the volume level is contingent on two things, the song and my mood.
Bingo
rock and roll hoochie koo
And your wife
Speaking of volume and how to listen my favorite way is to listen at night with lights off and/or eyes closed. Really crystallizes the listening experience for me.
I have learned to train my hearing so that I can listen to my music (both jazz and classical) as quietly as possible. Tricked like this, my brain even blocks out my tinnitus and I can really enjoy the recordings again.
Every song has a right volume, it's different for every person, system, room and mood.
Yes I agree,every song has a volume
OMG that’s so true
Living in a house with 5 people makes it pretty hard for me to listen over 80 db if it all. I am usually limited to around 70 before I start disturbing someone. Whenever everyone is out of the house it is an absolute treat for me. But even then
,I get so used to listening quieter that I don’t crank it as much as I think I want to.
I find myself listening, determining the right volume, then starting the music I’m listening to over from the beginning.
I use Steve's method of marking down the volume setting and although the next listen might not be at that exact level at least it will be very close and not be way too loud or way too quiet so as to spoil the effect of the music. I listen mostly to classical music and with it's greater dynamic range it can take several minutes to zero in on the right volume which of course is what I have to do with a new recording anyways.
Lol I do that sometimes too
Steve is the Neil Young of RUclips, just banging these reviews out leaving his review buddies in the dust - love it.
Always different and very informative.
Thank you,
Brian
PS: Steve I really do appreciated all that you do and a big thumbs up for the music reviews that you sprinkle into your videos.
Wow, thanks!
Now that's a conversation I'd love to hear given Neil Young's history with Pono, etc
For those of us who grew up in apartments with thin walls between, listening at low volumes was required. Being able to blast your music and make noise at all hours of the night was an important benefit to buying a single home for us suburbans.
I like to adjust the volume to where the sound of a solo voice sounds the right size, the same for a solo instrument.
I love your idea about sitting quietly for several minutes before you begin your listening session. That never occurred to me. Thank you, I know that will make a big difference.
As I've got a bit older protecting my hearing has also become a factor to be taken into account in any listening session. Love my system want to listen to great music forever.
YES
I think one reason many of us listen at lower volumes as we age is that we become more aware of our personal hearing loss and the damage we have done (or continue to do) to our hearing by listening at loud volumes. Hearing loss is inevitable for most as we age, but can be much worse if the ears are abused with lots of loud music. I love my music loud, but at 56, I am more aware than ever of protecting the hearing I have left, so I am much more careful about volume than when I was younger.
Me too I am 55 - But it’s so addictive at that live/almost live level
My most favorite listening: very late (or early?) hours, around 2AM, I turn the volume down to barely perceptible. Just sit in the dark for a while, on the border to dozing off to sleep, with eyes closed. After a while will come a moment when the sound just opens up, as if the brain and the ears have shifted a good number of gears, and I am rewarded by sound perception and quality that is not possible during daytime. The volume is 20B peak at these sessions - it's very far from speakers and amplifiers distotion limits, plus, line AC quality and low background noise floor is the best at this time, hence the listening quality is much elevated. I have tried "louder" listening sessions at 2am, with volume peaks to 50dB, but found that going lower is actually better, and at a certain volume you will reach a threshold where the perception will suddenly change. have fun! ; One caveat: you will need a system with vanishingly low noise floor to pull off this trick. ;)
exclnt
This is one of my favorite of your videos ever. Because it's about mindfulness and being totally in the moment and the experience. I find that little tweaks in volume help the music play the room just right. You could continue on the theme by discussing volume knobs and remotes. My Emotiva pre-amp is very good in most respects, but it has a cheap ass volume knob and an even worse remote. Tweaking volume should be tactile and satisfying. I mostly adjust on my iPad through Roon and it's quite imprecise and awkward with a slider. But still, it works.
I have found, although still music specific, the more powerful my systems have become the lower the volume level I use. It seems I get better dynamics at lower volume levels with the increased power.
75dB max? I'm 66, living in a rural town in NE Oregon with pastures between houses. I can turn it up and do often.
I've finally hooked up to Tidal and with quality, clear recordings and I often find myself immersed in music.
My subwoofer and two towers (all B&W) are sounding their best after some tweaks, producing low and controlled base. Just a modest system.
Feeling the air move is awesome, similar to guitar players needing that air pressure feedback to play their best.
As far as volume adjustment, I'll sit with the remote in hand attempting to find that ultimate performance. Turning it up on soft passages, turning it down in anticipation of passages with more distortion, higher volume, etc. Of course with the remote I can more easily find that sweet volume level you talked about. That subtle change can be amazing.
All that said, it seems not many systems sound that good at low levels, but I've not lived with that real high end stuff. Does that make a difference?
The exercise is interesting, I'll have to try it.
Not all of us old guys want the volume low. Good thing is I've been able to take care of my ears and can take it.
Good stuff Steve
@4:45 "...and the it gets really loud -- it's like blowing you away, because it's so freak'n loud"
I find the issue with loud sections to be the result of the frequency of the item that is loud.
If the drums suddenly have a slam, I doubt that anyone would take issue with that.
But when an upper mid-range electric guitar suddenly gets alarmingly loud, our ears are more sensitive to that frequency, and it actually hurts our ears.
In many songs, the lead singer is recorded on his own stem. And then the mixing engineer (or is it the mastering engineer?) raises the lead singer's voice so loud, that the singer not only drowns out the drums, but his voice hurts our ears. And if you were ever in a room with someone whaling away at his drums, you know that no one's voice can drown out those drums. And yet, that is what is released by the studios.
Dynamics is what makes music fantastic.
The yahoos in the studio, that make a mockery out of the dynamics, are the ones that ruin the otherwise amazing performances. And those same yahoos ruin music with compression, too.
SO TRUE. AS A MUSICIAN VOLUME LEVEL AND DYNAMICS ARE A HUGE PART OF THE SOUND
I used an SPL meter to set 75dB at listening position, where peaks might reach 79 or so. ie. Keep it below levels that start to cause permanent hearing damage. I haven't touched the volume control for 2 channel in over a year. However, my digital preamp does have sound contouring (tone controls at 6 frequency ranges) and have lowest bass up by 2dB, highest treble up by 1.5dB. This smile shape in the frequency gain contouring makes the instruments feel more present. The speakers (Legacy Audio Aeris) have two 12 inch subwoofers each so you can really feel the air move at this volume level. It never sounds too loud but the sound feels big. It is that easy bigness feel, where the room is pressurized without the volume being at uncomfortable levels. I do think that the speaker makes a big difference in what volume level is needed to provide a satisfying experience. I don't listen to classical music. I have noticed that volume control adjustment is needed for this type of music, due to the large dynamic range.
I’ve been enjoying your work for several years now, on the appletv. This was such a fine piece I’m compelled to comment, just to thank you for what you do. I’ve been listening critically since about 1968, with excellence in audio being defined differently at different times, and by different music.
All that said, the “appropriate” volume level, for me, is determined by the music itself. I recall a moment in the early seventies when my cousin David hollered down the stairs “it was made loud to be played loud”. The music was Humble Pie, and he was correct. Symphonies also demand to be played at a level approaching the live performance.
Vocals, folk, Mantovani, and pop, volume varies with the situation.
Anyhow, thanks for the work, this one in particular. Keep on at it.
Sort of thinking about this the opposite way, I remember the first time I heard Beethoven’s 9th live and those first few notes hit and they were so much louder then I’d ever heard them at home on the stereo. My jaw dropped, not because those notes were loud, but because my brain looked ahead and did the calculation about how loud it was going to get. I was not at all disappointed when it got there and I’ve never heard Beethoven the same way since (even if I still listen to it quietly at home).
So glad you discussed this Steve. I find this to be a significant detail for getting right into a 'proper' listening session with minimal fuss...and by 'proper' I mean when I want to fully hear what my time and dollars invested in this hobby have resulted in.
So, for years I've been labeling albums as you described with the exact volume I settled on as giving the ideal experience (albums that I would ever listen to again critically anyhow). For me, this means the level that best provides the illusion of a real performance in front of me - so, yes high peak db's in many cases.
Somewhat surprisingly, and probably because I only attempt such listening sessions when I'm of a certain state of mind (stressed over work ... don't bother, no chance of getting to a mental state allowing an illusory 3D event happening) and with room lighting controlled/dimmed to usual, I find that the volume I previously determined is very close if not dead on.
This practice definitely helps avoid distractions such as "I remember it sounding different last time, maybe need to play with volume". At this point, I'm confident enough in this practice that if I don't get a good experience right away, then only two remaining possibilities...either I'm not in the right mood/state of mind, or hi-fi system issue. Also means it's unlikely I would ever by a pre-amp without a visual volume reference.
Big thanks for all you're doing for the audiophile community!
After several years without funds for a simple music listening set up, as opposed to home theatre or mobile devices, I I am putting together a home stereo with the intent of lower volume listening. I am choosing equipment like the Klipsch rp600m mated to a low watt class A amp and a good digital/CD front end to break out my extensive CD collection that has been in storage for the past 30 years. I am quite surprised how much of the music I never heard and this is coming from a 62 year old with older ears. Getting excited about learning the new tech and what is possible with a modest budget. Thanks Steve for opening my ears again to the possibilities.
Steve, I've been with you since the beginning. Its not about how perfect every quantifiable parameter is, its about just enjoying the music, period. Stop judging and just spent time in the present moment, that's what it is all about.
About 5 decades ago, the owner of a rather high-end stereo shop told me one of the primary requisites of speaker selection should be low volume performance; HOW they sound and what is LOST as the volume is lowered. This surely could apply to other items in the system, too. Of course, we've come a long way in 50 years, but I believe lots of folks don't "low-level-listen" because of system components' inability to produce uniform quality across the dynamic spectrum.
Very interesting topic. Thank you for making this video. I think it's a mind thing - sometimes, less is more. But, at times, from a low key start, volume levels will also be dependent on genre of music & how one's playlist progresses.. Call it warm up for the brain if you will. That's how I start most of my listening sessions, be it critical or casual listening. That few minutes of silence before starting anecdote is very interesting. I think the trick is about resetting one's 'palette' from whatever one was doing & gently easing into a listening session. Like taking a sip of water before enjoying a cup of exquisite specialty coffee or tea. I must try this out. Thank you again!
When I was young a disposition so proud.
I listened to music in one level, loud.
Now a shroud no a cloud looms dark uninvited, but allowed.
I know now like a furrow fresh ploughed I was in with the crowd.
With less decibels now the music's endowed I'm still wowed.
Love it!
Being in my late 50s, I can relate very much to this topic, thanks for the video. I have recently discovered that I enjoy low level listening much more than listening at high volumes. In particular, I now have two systems, one for near-field listening, which provides me with great detail at low volumes (a Kef LS-50W system in my living room - in effect, this is like listening on headphones without headphones), and a more powerful full range system for real life listening and high volume. Having both, I can safely say that I listen to my low volume nearfield system a lot more than the « full volume » system.
Note: Vinyl listening in my experience requires a higher volume than digital listening, maybe because of the higher noise floor of that technology (?).
Similar, but different...I attended a concert at Wolf Trap in Virginia in the 1980s. WT is an indoor/outdoor venue that has covered seating as well as lawn seating. While I have little specific recollection of the program that night (I know it included Beethoven), the concert prelude provided by Mother Nature was exceptional. There were a couple of moments of rolling thunder that quietened the crowd, the lights dimmed...and rain began to fall. I’m convinced that the programmers allowed us to soak in the ambiance for an extra minute or two. That floor music, light rain on the roof, light breeze across the venue, was magical, and lasted through a few movements in the orchestral performance.
I grew up listening to 80s new wave and electronica at dance clubs and at dance club levels in my car (I'm lucky to have my hearing). I am now 53 and I still love Depeche Mode, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, etc as well as other base heavy music, at 90+ dB levels (for limited periods). I think I will always have a love for visceral, chest pounding, heavy percussion music.
In response to your query, yes, I think it's a good topic.
Maybe my favorite Audiophiliac show.
I confess to a spiral notebook with volume settings to about 20 songs going back the 20 years I've had my Denon/Magnepan/REL combo. Now that I have a cheap spl meter I've added that info as well.
80-85 db peaks seem to be the sweet spot for me. In my truck my Alpine system seems to be the most fun at 85-90 db, but I know my gauge isn't picking up the bass sub accurately. It will play at 100 clean but I care too much about my hearing. I'm 56 and holding on to it the best I can.
Side note - my 32 year old Maggie delaminated and I have spousal approval for a pair of LRS or maybe even the .7. I plan on possibly matching them with a Schiity Freya Vidar combo based largely on your reviews.
Thanks
Thanks for this topic, Steve. I find that, at 66, I'm listening much quieter in my home. I wish I could do the meditation on silence but unfortunately it becomes a meditation on my tinnitus. Also, I have no problem putting the 'devices' aside but I will admit that the album cover or CD booklet are an integral part of the listening experience for me.
You CAN still meditate on the available silence and this kind of meditation will calm your nerves, which I've found improves my tinnitus (sometimes). The instruction is to NOT get emotionally or judgementally involved with the tinnitus, which is also part of improving listening (making it less about thinking about the music).
I think about this a lot. When playing electric guitar, the guitar's volume knob is a big part of the instrument because I can make adjustments on the fly. I usually set up my guitar amp just below breakup level, so kicking in a booster pedal or making a volume change can drastically alter the timbre of the instrument. This is especially true when using analog fuzz pedals. Dialing back the volume cleans up the sound. The same thing can happen with home audio.
Even with the best sound reproduction systems, our ears and brains distort music in subtle ways. When listening at higher volumes, we can often hear frequencies we couldn't hear before while other frequencies fall away. Thinsk of spicy food and how the spice can suddenly obliterate more subtle flavors. And when listening at low volumes, we often have to focus more closely to hear the details. Think of a person telling a compelling story with a soft voice at a dinner party. They will absolutely command the room.
I should also mention that there are musical experiences that absolutely extend beyond our ears. A My Bloody Valentine concert is felt as much as it is heard. The entire body becomes a receiver when seeing the band Swans live. I doubt many of us have the capability to replicate those experiences at home, and that makes me happy. After all, live music should hold onto those things that make it worth seeking out in this world of disposable music everywhere.
Great topic! makes me think of an interview I read of Peter Walker in it he described how he designed the original Quad ESL, he started with the level of live music and what it would take to reproduce it in an English living room. This was before stereo and living rooms were smaller and his idea of music was really ensemble classical, well,?not for everyone. I have a pair of quads and with a 20 watt amp they were designed to have they do real well in my small though not so Victorian living room - mysteriously dynamic as hell & with palpable low end. My amps are Pass F4’s the preamp is a Pass BA-3. The volume control strangely could be anywhere it’s always polite and it never plays too loud.
I really love this one. The dimension behind the most (seemingly) rudimentary aspect of amplified music is an awesome topic for reflection. I'll be thinking about this one for a long time.
A very good topic, Steve! From my point of view, volume is a very important interface between physiology and emotion, between overwhelming experience and the threshold of pain, between increasing tension and being drugged up. In addition, the stereo system often has its sweet spot. I love my Stirling BBc LS3/6 for their tonal colour. But they are at the end of their sound pressure capacity where a Klipsch starts:) That's why I change speakers from time to time. You had a video years ago where you described your Quad ESL in a way that they even influence your music style more and more. I don't want it to get that far. But I am developing an ear for when loud is "too loud" for a particular speaker, and when soft is "too soft" for a particular music experience.
I love when you get the volume just right for that live level experience. It’s also cool to listen really low different sounds come through accentuated especially if you have speakers that can produce great bass at low volumes. I agree a pause with silence really clears the pallet - kind of like wine tasting. It’s a reset. Listening LOUD with a smooth clean warm sound system is totally amazing! It doesn’t even seem loud. Then you take that silence pause and go back - wow!
Reminds me of going out and looking for my first house. Went to look at one, and next door there was someone playing their stereo at true concert volume - sounded like a lot of firepower, not some cheapie system maxed out. Passed on the house but I would’ve loved to have seen the system.
i think your absolutely correct. it's amazing how much more perceptive your ears get when it's been really quite in the room and seems to bring out those little nuances.
Good video. Whether it's a single channel clock radio or a hi end system twiddling the volume knob a tiny bit makes all the difference.
Steve, I am 65 and still love to listen to rock music very loud!
Good subject 😜.volume is mood /source music dependent.However ,many of us grew up listening to cheap/bad sounding systems that needed something!! So, the natural thing to do was to crank it up!! Many of us got used to listening to music loud, regardless of the quality of the equipment that we have since aquiered.I do have the equipment to produce the crisp,clean, chest thumping feeling of being at live performance.also,I have the equipment to produce all the subtle nuances of chamber music at low levels. Volume also effects the tonality, soundstage, imaging and depth.Your right Steve,it is complicated,but getting it right produce's that Magic!! Thanks,Chris.
I listen at different volumes depending on how I feel. I do enjoy short and loud sessions but if it’s just for casual listening I’m around 75-80db. But when I’m going for a visceral exp it’s north of 95. My speakers blow me away and the louder the better... till it’s not comfortable. I think the sweet spot is 90-100db. I’ve never made my ears ring from a session. So not night club loud.
I really enjoy fining new music, and I’m going on the hunt soon. Been a few years. Need to heel up a pre amp but need a DAC as well. I really like a super low noise level. I like the space between and the more dynamic the better. Who knows, maybe I’ll decide to start making my own just the way I want to hear it...🍻
Excellent subject for analysis ! Ideally a sound proof listening room would be ideal against ambient noise ! Such as car traffic refrigerators air-conditioniners lawnmowers ,ect ! Listening at low volumes adds a certain quality to the music.... I think !!
Hi Steve,
You and I are about the same age and I too listen at lower levels today than when I was younger. Music taste has not changed. And, as I say this I find myself speaking at lower and more even levels as well. I had not thought of the speaking aspect too.
I enjoyed this perspective of our listening habits 👂
Fantastic topic. Thanks for bringing it up. On my system the music really blooms at 75db plus so I go there for the most realistic sound I can get. Lower levels have good dynamics with a 250w/ch rms into 8 ohm amp. At 56 years old I almost never go above 85db to preserve my hearing.
Hello Steve
I follow you from France in Paris city.
I am always happy to see your video.
I am agree with you about listening level who changes all life long.
But I want also feeling the impact of the music and I am so happy then I feel like younger. So great and fun.
Thanks for all. I'm Rick from France I'm 52 years old. I love music I need music to live in this crazy world at that moment so rude with covid 😄🎼😌
Steve - I really appreciate this post, thank you. I'm a 64-68 dBA listener, optimally, BUT it's tricky, right? I have spent 30+ years trying to find the exact, optimum mix of lower-level dB with suitable dynamic response of the equipment as the music reaches my ears. I ascribe to your preferred "low power/high quality" approach (I'm a Nelson Pass admirer for sure!). I find my ears best suited to receive the quieter levels very early in the morning and later in the evening when all ambient sound (and my blood pressure and mental mood) is lower/quieter/calmer (as you note, turn off the workl for a few minutes and let yourself hear). The brilliant and generous Siegfried Linkwitz spent his life exploring this concept of how our ears receive sound (and of course what speakers deliver it best), and your post reminded me of the incredible wealth of knowledge he left for us on his simple, but fascinating, website. I've been re-reading some of it this morning after watching this. Thanks for your work and your passion for this hobby!
I not only agree with Steve's opinions but would go further and say volume is EVERYTHING in terms of how you perceive music. As someone who mixes records, relative volume between different elements is the foundation of a good mix. I've found that it's not necessary to listen to different speakers to evaluate a mix but simply to listen to one set of speakers at different volumes give me the information I need to adjust a mix. Finally listening on headphones is what tempts me to listen at high volumes. It's not good for your ears but it's hard for me to resist turning the music up under those circumstances.
John Crabbe of hi fi news maintained it was like focusing a camera. There is an ideal volume level for every track.
Thank God for remotes...didnt used to be that easy
If John Crabbe said that he was paraphrasing Peter Walker but Walker didn’t use a camera analogy
@@NateEll Well it goes to show that the analogy works
The Michell Argo pre amp, made in the UK, had “Focus” on the volume pot not “Volume”.
@@stephenstevens6573 Actually, I deliberately bought a pre-amp without a remote, TO get me up out of my chair more often and that might mean I'm up more than once for a song. I like what that does for my legs, balance, and my mind.
Thank you Steve, for the great videos you produce they help us get through these interesting times, times. You know you as a society we are "Almost Famous" as they will be talking about our situation for hundreds of years. I listen as rule at 75 - 80dbs - Music Truly Matters!
I tend to listen at levels approaching "performance" given the differences between my listening space and the venue, studio or club or auditorium, the level of processing during the recording and engineering, and a myriad of things for which I can't account nor control. So, usually louder more often than softer when my intent is to really sit down and listen to the music.
Agreed, well said. I believe home listening volume levels should ideally approximate the typical volume levels of that particular genre of music in a live performance venue, with reasonable reduction of excessively loud volumes typical of some genres. Of course not everyone has the luxury of those choices (with speakers as opposed to headphones) when consideration for family or neighbors is a factor. I have difficulty remaining engaged by the music when listening at significantly lower volume levels.
I used Decibel X through my iPhone to test and measured 68-70db, and I consider that to be at quite loud. Safely far enough from hearing damage loud.
How far do you hold your phone from the speaker? Right up by it or from the listening position?
@@memberrrberry7282 listening position, which is about 8-9 feet away
I'm glad you made this video, because over the course of my life I've repeatedly considered this...volume definitely changes how you experience music.
Excellent discussion and my comment is that at 69 I have a low tolerance for compressed music, regardless of the artist/musicians. The more compressed the recording, the less likely it will ever be played on my home system. And I find it interesting in the comments that there are concerns for loss of hearing and 'protecting one's hearing' by avoiding louder volume levels. This seems paradoxical. I have had hearing loss during my lifetime, but with age comes an appreciation for hearing music at its fullest potential, and playing certain recordings at a lower volume just for hearing protective issues, makes the experience so much less enjoyable.
I have a big room, +30' each side with 17' sloped ceiling. I have an inexpensive sound bar I use for softer background music. And frankly I have always been impressed with how good this cheap things is. 4.1 with a small sub. They claim it reaches 101dbSPL. I have not tried. I pull my Maggies (1.7i) out for my regular "concerts". In listening positions (Maggies need space and they block access to other rooms so can not be left in their listening spots) I play at whatever the music says is correct. Small jazz combo? 72-75dbSPL? Rock I can get to about 85dbSPL before blowing fuses in my ADCOM GFA555!
What always amazes visitors is how high my sound level gets without them thinking it is "loud". Like when they try to talk over it and realize they have to yell to be heard. That is the difference between high sound pressure levels and distorted loudness. A small low powered system can SOUND loud at low dbSPL because of distortion. While a really good system can reach higher dbSPLs and it not be as noticed as such.
It’s almost as if you snuck into my listening room this past Sunday and watched me spend four hours doing nothing but volume checks. I have a relatively modest system comprising Rotel Amps, B&W CM9 S2s, two B&W subwoofers, Marantz CD player, Wadia Transport, and Wadia 151PowerDAC AMP/DAC in a room that measures 14x 26. I ran a series of three sessions each listening to a diverse range of music ranging from Gluck’s Don Juan to John Mayer’s Where The Light Is and IZ’s Wonderful World - all in CD format. That was followed by MP3’s, ACC files and AAIF files from my MacBook Pro, and lastly, streamed two select cuts from Tower Of Power’s “Your Still A Young Man” and “634-5789.” I listened to select cuts from all of the above at various volume levels and I was stunned at how much detail is lost or gained at high, mid and low volumes, depending on the format (CD, Streaming, MP3’s, etc.) as well as the type of music (Classical, Rock, Jazz/R&B, etc.) None of my listening was scientific in nature. Just me, a dimly & lit silent room, and my remote to adjust volume. Interestingly to me was that I thought I would get much more out of streaming cuts at a higher volume but it was exactly the opposite. I am able to pick up very subtle highs at lower volume than blasting it. Same for my MP3’s. More detailed at low to mid range volumes versus an all-out assault on my ears.
A great exercise in throttle management versus tweaking and tuning and moving hardware. Bravo for a great post!
What equipment do you need to put together a system that sounds engaging at low volumes? Is there some magic number between speaker sensitivity and power? Does speaker size and room size matter? If you have a system that you enjoy at lower volumes, please list what you have.
I can remember the moment when it dawned on me WHY so many audiophiles like intimate jazz (Diana Krall)...because it’s recorded so quiet that you can crank it up for more detail without hurting your ears.
The canvas she presents is virtually perfect in many of her songs, and she 'touches much of what is available with the various instruments and her voice. I've been studying her initial release, "Stepping Out" and she's got it all there: texture, soundstage depth and width, truly beautiful songs by both lyric and vocals. She must be a very focused, disciplined, very careful sort of person.
Steve, a really great great job you did here about the psychology of loudness of music. I would just add that besides everything you mentioned, the optimum SPL depends on the genre of the music and even the movements of the music in a given piece. Take Stairway to Heaven for example. I typically listen to the beginning at relatively low to moderate SPL maybe 80-90 dB then when the drums start I usually bring the SPL up just a bit. Then when the last climatic part starts, I usually crank it up to 100dB+ to get the adrenaline flowing and the full tactile effect of the bass frequencies. Then I let my ears rest for a few minutes with no music or quiet music before any more onslaughts.
on the engineering side -- if the dynamic range was controlled with volume automation instead of compression, you can have the best of both worlds. controlled dynamic range, no squashed dynamics. this is obviously easier to do in a DAW than on a console, but both can be done.
All very much true. Our Ear/Brain has its own Volume control (for which we don't have access to the volume Knob, at least not directly), as well our Ear/Brain Volume control is fundamentally more like a Fletcher Munson but one which spans the entire frequency range. So yeah, there is everything that Steve mentioned and more when it comes to our very sophisticated auditory Ear/Brain system. So definitely worth experimenting with all that Steve mentions and more.
hi steve love your daily show ever since i biamped.my system ive gone from 75 db to 55 db .and sounds good .happy day from scotland 😊😊😊
Usually at the ref level of around 85db, except after 11pm at night and weekends 12pm at night, when it has to play around 60db.
When I go to a symphony the dynamic range from very quiet to very load is great, but at home it is annoying.
Fletcher and Munson would agree! Thanks Steve. Have followed you since early editions of Stereophile.
Guitarist here .... if it’s worth playing, it’s worth playing loud.
Big role in listening at low loudness play the type of sound produced by speakers. Diminished level of crossover frequencies (always affected by phases) which by compensation with higher sopranos may be tolerated nicely at normal; levels produce with turning down sounds stripped of not only those diminished tones but also all sopranos. 400Hz -1000 Hz likely would dominate because low tones get diminished due to physiology of hearing. For that reason for silent listening all band speakers perform much more crispy Depending on room and speaker cabinets bass may be acceptable or not enough.
Watching movies I have a usually fixed reference volume setting that accommodates the most natural/intelligible level of voices, and the rest of the dynamic span then revolves around that. I love the dynamic swings that comes of this, from a whisper-low scene to one that cracks open the roof, so to speak, and it's really about emulating a rather lifelike sonic scenario here; much of the sound scape is for effect, of course, but there's an overall sense that what unspools sonically is about catching a natural-ish equivalent. Haven't measured average SPL's here, but with the more aggressive titles peaks can occasionally hit in the vicinity of 100-105dB's (dB(A)).
With music my volume setting can vary quite a bit, depending on the circumstances. More lifelike recordings with actual, wide dynamics tend to call for a fixed volume that's more closely reminiscent of a live event - akin to adjusting the volume for movies, I find - whereas more compressed recordings is really about background (low) level or seated-for-listening mid to high SPL's - whatever the mood dictates. Average actual-listening levels typically sit somewhere in the 70-80dB's range, sometimes a bit lower but rarely higher.
One thing that hit me right away is to remember what it was like to not have a remote control - not being able to make level changes from the best listening position? A very big deal - try starting some music and sitting down to listen, but leave your remote where you can't reach it without getting up. I like the idea presented here of essentially a mental system cleansing, probably relating to currently cached thoughts, prior to listening.
Most of it depends upon mood and genre and why I am listening. If I am listening for background, I just use a Bose mini bluetooth and stream the music. But, when I am listening critically, I will sometimes listen at over 90 db. Usually in the 70 - 80 range. Listening to Count Basie Band, horns can push it over 100 on peaks. Stravinsky will also have a wide range.
I appreciate his comments about listening to silence. Adding to this, one thing I listen for, especially with live orchestral music, is the moment after the last note is played and how the sound decays in the hall just prior to applause.
Great shirt! For true, focused listening I average mid 80dB from my chair, head about 8' from the speaker. I've been a little obsessed with this for a couple years. I'm anxious for live music to start up again so I can do some more field experimentation. Low 80s is consistent with live jazz piano/acoustic bass/horn depending on how far from the stage I've been. Rock is all over the map, of course. Edit: My amp is only 48 wpc and the volume dial is never halfway up.
Great video. To me, every mix has its own perfect level. And is system and room dependent as well, not to mention mood.
micro dynamics are the key.......listen with 1/2 db steps to control volume well...Rock on Steve!
I think the best volume is the one just before the speakers go into distortion. I think that volume point will be the "sweet spot" between amplifier, speakers and room and you. Of course, I don't always hear like that, it depends on my predisposition. But that load of energy in which the loudspeakers are at their limit of control and without distruction. Fast and safe ...
It is so curious that I was thinking of the exact same topic yesterday, while doing a night quieter session. And now you come with this video.
Completely agree on the experience difference it makes regarding the volume you choose. Also, depending on how resolving the system is (mine is not so much), cranking the volume may blur things a little.
Greetings from a huge audiophile fan from Brazil.
As a working bassist, when I need to really understand the bass pitch and timbre, I always dial back the volume. When I perform, I’m always aware of volume, pitch and tone.
I love listening to songs with the vocals on the soft whisper type. I listen to the songs loud and it is a wonderful experience. Like a beast singing into your ear!
For me it depends upon the dynamic range of any particular musical selection. With classical music which has a wider dynamic range with various degrees of intensity, ensemble size, etc it might be much different then from listening to high intensity rock/pop/jazz. Being a brass player I like the brass ensemble sections to sound full and “live” 👍🏻 to each his own. As I age my hearing sensitivity is quite different from my younger days so I may probably be listening to my recordings louder now due to my age related and work related hearing loss. (I taught Band for 36 years and gigged with a very loud horn band “long ago” and that exposure also affected my hearing “health”)
Very good finding you Steve.
Peace
Very easy to understand you.
Thanks for your advice
I find I am typically listening at an average of 84dB. Peaking at 90 is my max comfort. Some tracks are best at 78-80.
I have found that as the system improved, it is naturally enjoyable at lower and lower sound pressure.
Thought provoking discussion as always. Love the variety of all topics around audio enthusiasm.
Ear and hearing protection are ongoing issues for me- I rarely listen quite as loud as I'd truly like, though I still immensely enjoy my music. Unless I'm feeling particularly high-strung, I like to listen to my music loud, 80-85 db at the middle level, 85-90 db peaks (same level as in my teens- and I'm in my mid-50s)- but I almost never do.
I typically set the volume to peak at 75-80 db, with the middle of the music between 70-75 db because A) I have mild hyperacusis, which worsens with longer exposure to louder volumes; B) wish to preserve my hearing; and C) don' want to piss off my neighbors. Testing suggests that my hearing is equivalent on average to someone 15 years or more younger than me, so my long-term caution has paid off, and my (townhouse) neighbors have never complained!
I encourage people to really research and endeavor to preserve their hearing as much as reasonably possible, through moderate playing volumes, ear plugs in noisy environments, and the like.
Also beware- if you ride/drive a lot in cars and you like to play your music in them the db's for satisfactory sound are often much higher than at home, because the baseline of car noise typically requires higher db levels (e.g., maybe 10 db higher) to be perceived as equivalent to what you hear at home- and so in the long term, incautious playing of loud music while driving can pose a greater threat to your ears than elsewhere.
Amplified loud music and headphones obviously can do that, too.
I've four prefered volume levels ...
1) 30 to 45 dB when my wife is in the adjacent room, to not disturb her. Bass boost equalization enabled at such low levels.
2) 45 to 65 dB for the majority of general listening, usually w/o bass equalization at higher output.
3) 65 to 75 dB when watching movies, to match levels commensurate with action therein.
4) As loud as the amplifier will go to test its' limits a) to just have fun, b) in an effort to make serious evaluations (ear plugs are often worn in this situation). 100+ dB SPL can be experienced, depending on available amplifier power. No bass equalization is ever used here.
True hifi, has always been, for me, that feeling of the band, singer, or music is being played live in my room. This takes power, and power cost money which is why I purchased a used McIntosh MC2205. That amp, the tube preamp I chose, and the speakers gave me those goosebumps, and chills I desire when listening, it was so good! I'm not sure what db I was listening at, but the needles on the blue meters were peaking toward their limit at times. I do listen low as well, especially on classical music when I just want to relax, but overall, if I'm in the mood to listen to music, I want it as realistic as possible which usually means fairly loud.
How loud or quiet your listening space is makes a big difference in how loud you need to play the music. I live in an apartment about 140 feet above a street that's very busy all day and into the night, so most of the day music has to compete with traffic noise. Fortunately, my neighbors are usually quiet themselves, and don't seem sensitive to the volumes at which I usually play music.
Great topic that on the surface might seem banal or insignificant. Loved the part about silence/clearing the "palate" before listening.
All my speakers over the years have exhibitted the same phenomenon: You need to reach a certain volume level before the speakers 'open out' and give you the imagery and insight you are looking for. I've always assumed all speakers were like this.
As a result, whilst i can listen at lower levels, I cant for what i consider hi fi listening. Lower level stuff is more like background radio and you can hear its coming from boxes, but these disappear once you reach what i consider 'working volume'.
As a result my volume levels are most often dictated by this 'working volume'.
Incredibly topical in fact. I do tend to listen averaging under 80db, but peaks can reach higher. I have a pretty nasty noise floor where I live with an interstate nearby. Depending on the wind I might have a 70db noise floor outside my front door and almost 40db inside my living room. Less wind can carry less sound I guess and reduce my indoor noise floor into the 30db range. Occasionally I do kick it up to higher db to see what it sounds like, but it’s not sustainable to listen to enjoyably really.
Volume levels vary in this household according to moods & motivation. Can't listen to AC/DC at low volume while doing housework, can't listen to my favorite jazz during cocktail hour at ear splitting levels. Thus the need for highly accurate and efficient speakers that can assume different roles when called upon.
Silence is the pallet cleanser for sound.
Yes, If you don't have tinnitus. You are lucky if you don't as you get older.
@@SubTroppo
25+ years making furniture/cabinetry along with a fondness for piercing guitar has wreaked its havoc upon the ole timpanic membranes. Not only is silence golden, but a rare luxury of the wiser man indeed.
I have also found that I’m listening to much lower volume than before. I think it started with that I didn’t want to disturb one of my cats when she became very sick. And I found that I really liked listening to music at low volume.
But I have one problem with this; I can’t find a speaker that is really good at low volume listening with classical music and a 12w amp.
Steve: I really like your tips on good recordings and music. Have bought some of them. Holly Cole is my new favoruite. Especially the album you talked about; Temptation.
Many thanks Steve.
Whatever you hear....
You got the right level if it feels good for you at the moment!
I got no problem to hear "Welcome to the machine" beyond 90 dB. Especially the multichannel SACD.
But i don´t wanna hear Kat Edmonson at that level!
You did it right when you listening to your music and notice....
Uhhh....
Goosebumps...
👌
65 to 75 db is my sweet spot. I like a comment you made Steve about trying to listen at lower levels at night time with the lights out really makes a difference and can be just as rewarding.
I totally agree. Something very special about listening to music late at night with the lights out. I also find I'm quite happy with a far lower volume than during the daytime. Probably a good thing to keep the peace with the neighbours!
When it comes to dynamics, not enough attention is given to Zappa’s LSO album. Especially, the composition of Bogus Pomp at the 18 min. mark. The variations in levels, separation and frequencies are amazing. I just adjust the volume as if I was middle third row.
The "4D" recordings from Deutsche Grammophon in the 90's are super dynamic. Hard to hear parts and then incredibly loud! Fun to listen to.
Orchestral music (ie: Bruckner's 4th) is particularly challenging. In reality the dynamics are extreme. Hard to reproduce without either (i) parts being virtually inaudible or, (ii) waking neighbors in the next street!! I normally keep it below 75dB, and even then my wife tells me it's too loud (!). In the days we'd go to orchestral concerts I'd give her a good raised eyebrow look during fortissimo sections - an orchestra can be seriously loud.
Some songs you want to play loud some softer. I have thin walls and have to listen quietly all the time 😔 Some times I use auto volume, but I feel it takes away from the music so I only use it for movies. Still after 4 years of listening to music at a level mostly under 60 db I have found there are things in the music that come out more at low volume listening that I can’t hear when it’s as loud as I believe it would be in real life. As if some of the louder sounds cancel out the softer ones.
65-70 low side and 80-85 on the high side for me. I probably spend more time in the low side.
80-85 dB @ 3.5 meters from loudspeakers with peaks around 97 dB. That's what I am reading now on my app with Steely Dan's "Haithian Divorce". And I can still hear the clicks from my "silent" keyboard.
But with Mars from "The Planets" it gets noticeably louder ....
With good recordings, that meaning files, my system sounds the best at rather loud volumes. That meaning, I'd guess around 85-90 db. So, that's how I listen, when I just listen, during the day. I enjoy the visceral experience, when I can really feel the lows in my body. With my system, it's also the voices, that only sound extremely life-like and present at higher volumes. When I crank it up (only with good files, or it get harsh), the music sounds more real to me. But that's really a per-person, per- system thing. However, sometimes I really am in a mood to listen quietly and have a more intimate experience.