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The $100 Billion Question - A Conversation with Aaron Miller
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- Опубликовано: 17 авг 2024
- In May of this year, the news program 60 Minutes aired a segment exploring the finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. David Nielsen, a former portfolio manager at Ensign Peak, the investment arm of the Church, alleged that the Church had been operating improperly as a tax-exempt organization and called for that tax-exempt status to be revoked. 60 Minutes also interviewed W. Christopher Waddell, first counselor in the Presiding Bishopric, who denied Nielsen’s claims. Near the end of June, the Wall Street Journal published an article of its own, again emphasizing the size of the Church’s assets and the opulence of its temples.
This is an issue with an extraordinary amount of complexity, and significant moral weight. Though the Church hasn’t publicly disclosed the value of its assets, estimates place it at over $100 billion - put in context, that’s about double the size of Harvard’s endowment, making the Church one of the wealthiest religious institutions, or non-governmental organizations of any kind, in the world.
The questions this raises are clear: how did the Church acquire this much wealth? Is it reasonable to see assets of this size as a “rainy-day fund,” even for a religion with a name attesting that we live in the last days? Is tithing simply “God’s money” and a matter of faith alone, or should members have insight and transparency into Church finances, and how their donations are used? And of course - what good could be done in the world with $100B or more?
We felt like it was the right time to explore these questions on Faith Matters, and we brought on Aaron Miller to help us sort through some of them. Aaron is a Teaching Professor in BYU’s George Romney Institute for Public Service and Ethics, where he teaches classes on business ethics and nonprofit structure and finance. Though he’s quick to point out that he doesn’t have privileged insight into Church finances, he was able to walk through these issues in a really detailed but understandable way, and to us, he represented extraordinarily clear, objective, and open-hearted thinking on this subject. Aaron also hosts a really cool podcast called “How to Help” that presents conversations and ideas about living a life of positive impact on the world and the people around us. You can check it out wherever you listen to podcasts.
We’re really grateful that Aaron would come on and discuss this tough but important issue. As is the case with all sensitive topics, we’re sure we got something wrong here. Our goal is always to explore tough issues with as expansive a lens as possible, and explore arguments on both sides charitably. No doubt we did that imperfectly, but we hope you know that is our intention.
Bro/professor Miller was the first counselor on my bishopric at BYU and he was my ethics teacher!!! Love this man. Great teacher, leader, and example.
You can never get the whole story from listening to just one side. I watched this and to Dehlin's videos/guests on this subject. Aaron Miller keeps saying it was lawyers who did this. But if you also listen to the other side, it is plain that many different First Presidencies were told this was going on and that it was not allowed, and they decided to keep doing it anyway. So surprising and disappointing.
I’m just so tired of making excuses for church leadership. Christ would be flipping tables over this
Tim and Aubrey, this is excellent work. You and your guest talked openly and honestly about this thorny issue. I so appreciate what you do in providing these nuanced conversations. They help me so much as I navigate rough waters.
That being said, there is one very difficult point that you didn't hit on that I was very much hoping to see addresed. Paying a full 10% Tithing is still a requirement for a temple recommend. There is no getting around that $100 billion+ elephant in the room. I have no problem accepting that the church needs money to operate and do charitable things. But requiring a full tithing as essentially an access fee, especially in the wake of the SEC revelations, is a very difficult pill to keep swallowing. I understand the discussion you had here about sacrifice, and agree to a point. But just as other temple recommend questions can be answered with nuanced "I'm still trying to get there, but I definitely want to believe" type answers and could still qualify one for a recommend, I think tithing should be like that too. Some effort, some sacrifice should be encouraged. But to keep otherwise faithful people from temple blessings because of money feels so wrong to me. Thoughts?
Being a Ward Clerk and seeing the good the finances of the church do, I hope to see the church have trillions of dollars. The church is much different than the thousands of each separate protestant congregation where a lawsuit of any significance will never happen. If this is the Lord's church it must be by definition "centrally controlled". Yes, the church is a target for criticism, and that criticism will grow ever louder.
It's a shame that we have to compare the church to the lowest standards of ethics and legal responsibility and shrug our shoulders and say, "eh well they're sometimes better than that".
The church should hold itself to some of the highest standards as it claims to represent Christ's Kingdom.
There is a certain satisfaction in my soul of contributing to God's Kingdom on earth. I feel I am a part of it and I feel like I own part of it in partnership with God. I glory in the growth of the church because of the happiness it brings to people all over the world.
This was very good. I totally feel what Aubrey was saying... I felt a little betrayed by learning all these things the church was doing that I perceived as wrong. Seeing it from the law and financial side really helped me understand how normal most of that is. Even if I don't agree with the decisions, it makes sense why it was done. Great episode! ❤
He was my professor as well, EMPA class of 2015. I enjoyed this episode immensely. Thank you.
This helped provide a new insight but this is a gross misrepresentation of the facts of the SEC order. The failings of the Mormon church to file the 13F forms was not bad legal advice. If it was that would have been stated in the SEC order and it is nowhere to be found in that legally binding and mutually agreed upon document. It is a document that the church agreed to through negotiations. The church wilfully chose to not file those forms even when they were warned by EPA and their own auditing department that it was illegal. It appears that Dr. Miller didn't read the order. I understand he is in a bad position and can't be objective because he would be fired for speaking against his employer but this episode is not a complete picture of the issue.
Roger Clarke is on record saying one of the main purposes for hiding the money was to prevent the public and more insidiously the members of the church from knowing how much money the church had. Why? According to Clarke because they were afraid the members would quit paying tithing. What an insult to the faith of the members.
Whether the church has an obligation to be transparent in finances and use the money fornmore charity is a great theological and moral question. I think they should based on scriptural references (e.g., James 1:27 and Mormon 8). But unequivocally the biggest issue here is honesty! The church was blatantly dishonest! They lied and cheated the system and did it knowingly even after multiple warnings. The was the 1st presidency and presiding bishopric making these choices. It vilolates not only the 12th and 13th articles of faith but most importantly the temple recommend questions regarding honesty in our dealings. The top leaders can't hold members to a standard of honesty and live a different standard yourself. Unfortunately the pattern of lying has a long history in the church.
Very well stated. Any temple recommend question that I may have trouble answering I'm going to say, "I consider that matter closed" and move on.
This was very helpful to me in understanding a very difficult topic. thank you so much.
Sadly he didn't tell the whole story.
In the spirit of transparency (and honesty) it should be stated that Aaron Miller’s contract with BYU obligates him to provide a faith promoting viewpoint on the SEC ruling. He is a presented as a subject matter expert however he does not have the academic liberty to provide an unbiased view.
I find it numerous and ironic that Brother Miller states at the outset that “he doesn’t have privileged knowledges of church finances” despite the fact that Gordon Hinckley told the world (when asked about church finances) that that information was privileged information for tithe paying members. Guess the church is still waiting for that information. Until then please review The Widow Mites report.
This episode/interview is being covered on Mormonism Live tonight.
Where was the gift of discernment? The lawyers may have come up with the idea, but we are talking about prophets, not CEOs. Why didn’t God whisper in the ear of at least one of the these men that this was a bad idea? Especially considering how devastating it’s been to the church’s reputation. 20 years, multiple prophets and their councillors and not one of them was told by God to stop doing this?
the data plan on the seer stone expired when buddy holly died.
It was Gordon Hinckley who sanctioned this. Sadly the church isn't taking responsibility for it's failure to keep the law.
Miller raises entirely relevant complexities and realities that most people (including members) never consider when it comes to charity financial matters. That said, I do think we are in a new era of church finances and a new dialogue is necessary...a new approach to the entire topic. It is fair to say that this matter is causing concern to more than a few members and we need to recognize that and better deal with the new reality.
One aspect of this issue that I never hear mentioned: the nature of financial compounding. The math works amazingly well, it's just that most people / organizations don't consistently do what it takes for that to happen. In some ways I think senior church leaders are as surprised as anyone that church assets have grown as they have -- a relatively recent phenomenon. Most of these leaders were leaders when the church financial situation was dramatically less rosy. They probably never imagined the current state of affairs, and may still have concerns of its permanence (as well they should; financial assets can certainly go down in value, sometimes dramatically). Anyone who has ever looked at a retirement savings compounding graph has seen -- at least on paper -- the "magic" of consistent saving, prudent investing, and then holding *for a long time*. The exponential growth really does happen, but it happens most dramatically at, say, 50+ years into the program. That is pretty much where we are as a church (N. Eldon Tanner's fiscal discipline began in the late 60's / early 70's). Put another way: >95% of Warren Buffet's worth came after his 65th birthday (he's now 92). Sticking to a wise investment plan is necessary, but living (or surviving) a long time makes the biggest difference in terms of raw numbers.
That was very informative. Thank you! I thought Aaron Miller did a very nice job.
What a timely and impressive conversation. This has been part of my current obsession with your channel
I have some questions. How much money should the Church have in reserves? Should the church invest in things that don’t appreciate or should it just spend it all. I would like to hear what people think.
There are starving members all over the world. I saw it first hand on my mission. I want them to stop requiring impoverished people to pay tithing in order to get into the celestial kingdom.
I love this. And honestly good for the church for being wealthy - so blessed. We don't kmow the future & do so much good. Would anyone prefer being upside down? Proud of the church.
Proud of them for evading taxes? That crime that if you or I did we would go to prison for? Is that what you're proud of? If you were being sarcastic I tip my top hat to you!
The Church claims itself that they are the only true church. That the prophet is talking with God. For me it's just another thing that it's misleading. Whatever reason is given, the prophet should have heard God's voice that led him take action and ordered that everything should be ruled and valid with the law.
This was obviously not the case.
This was all reveled because of whistleblowers... none of this would have lead to hidden funds again.
the restoration = members declining... accounts growing
Money in exxhage of " Salvation"
31:44 what’s the risk mitigation? It’s protecting the sacred funds entrusted to the church by me and other members against frivolous lawsuits. I want my donations to go to paying for chapels and temples and BYU and the poor and needy. Not paying for attorneys.
It's also suggesting the church is the victim of frivolous law suits when it spends unknown sums silencing the victims of church related child sex abuse as well as crushing opposition using it's financial might.
@@debbieshrubb1222 no it really isn’t. There is no credible evidence of widespread abuse in the church but because they have deep pockets it makes them a target. Every defendant has the right to defend themselves.
There seems to be one very reasonable purpose for hiding the churches investment activities: it does not want church members mimicking their investment activity, thinking that the church, because it belongs to God, must know the very best things to invest in.
They never used that as their official stated reason. The presiding bishopric (in charge of the finances) said they did not want members to contribute less tithing if they knew how much wealth the church accumulated and they also didn't want to everyone to tell them what to do with the money. If God is inspiring these stocks and trades, he is currently capitalizing on vices and sin, based on what the Church is investing in...
@@MaryMartinez-mc9qu please provide a link for the quote you are referring to. Frankly, I do not believe that ever happened.
@redhotsnow14 ruclips.net/video/k3_Fhq7sEHo/видео.html it was stated in the 60 Minutes interview, also the actual SEC order has written the Church's intention for hiding its assets, which was agreed upon by the Church before the order was finalized. You should read the full SEC order. It is not that long and does not require any level of expertise to understand the important points.
@@redhotsnow14 stated in the 60 Minutes interview and the SEC order itself, which I strongly recommend you read. It is easy to find the document online.
@@redhotsnow14 also, church members would not be able to use 13f filings to mimick investments. They are filed quarterly, which would be long past any timely trades to copy the church. The Church stated their reason for hiding assets.
The problem is not that the church has so much money, it’s that they paternalistically (and unethically) hid that fact through dishonest means because they thought that if their members knew about it they’d use their agency to stop paying tithing. This says a lot about how church leaders think about their relationship with the members they lead. The are perfectly comfortable acting dishonestly and keeping important information from you because they think they know better than you about how you should live your life. This situation is a glimpse into the unhealthiness that is the LDS Church.
You’re good at mind reading. Congratulations
@@johnmillward6125 They literally admitted this out loud, no mind reading necessary.
@@carlaceu As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think they act paternalistically like that because , yes, they genuinely believe they know better than the members they lead. Doesn’t make it any more ethical nor does it make the institution they lead any more healthy.
@@johnmillward6125
“‘We’ve tried to be somewhat anonymous,’ said Roger Clarke, the head of Ensign Peak…
…”Mr. Clarke said he believed church leaders were concerned that public knowledge of the fund’s wealth might discourage tithing.
‘Paying tithing is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money,’ Mr. Clarke said. ‘So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn’t make a contribution.’”
@@ryanderoque7910
Being not transparent shows to me that if this is no big deal to then... they got caught.
Look backward for other hidden tricks!
23 years to grow to a trillion dollars. ??? Naïve??? I grew up in a home bought for $15000. 23 years ago I bought my home in the SF bay area for $435000. 23 years from now, we'll be lucky if the then $1 trillion will have the buying power of today's $100 billion. On the question of tithing. After working 40 years, I have seen the windows of heaven open for me . Overall I have been over blessed by being honest in my tithing and never lacked. Trust God. He keeps His promises.
The Church dissolved the independent three person auditing committee in 2001. They reported directly to the First Presidency. It was a topic of heated debates within the Church auditing department. Less transparency and a critical link that kept the First Presidency abreast of the activities of the Presiding Bishopric.
The questioners don't understand that the sacrifices at the ancient temple were not just burned on the altar. The animals were butchered and the edible meat was divided between he temple priests and the donor family, which held a feast. The sacrifice sustained the temple, just as Malachi teaches about the tithing sacrifice. God does not burn up our sacrifices, he utilizes them to do his work on earth. The Church is much more effective in donating to the needy than we can be as individuals. Its investments in income generating properties have direct benefits in creating jobs and increasing the value of the Church real property, and it preserves assets that will be needed in future. As the Church triples in size by 2100, it will need more office space at HQ, and will occupy the downtown office buildings it is now renting out. In 2008, when it built City Creek, there was little such construction going on elsewhere in the US. The Church provided jobs to construction workers and has created ongoing jobs now. Jobs are better than one time gifts and aid.
Younger adults think they are getting transparency for most other aspects of their lives outside the church? wow, that is just... wow
What would be the advantage to have the Lord's church spend down their reserves each year. Where would that leave them? I would see a world of hurt and struggle. The Lord teaches self reliance and not being dependent on his church as your piggy bank. I don't think the Lord's church has enough in reserve and I hope in the future they can double or triple their reserves. Thank goodness that the Lord's church has been a model and example of how each of us should live our lives, having a reserve for rainy days. Isn't this the way.
Literally nobody is asking for that. I want prophets, seers, and revelators to not break the law. You can blame this on lawyers all you want but having been told my whole life the prophet literally speaks for god I find myself asking how can god let his prophets commit a financial crime that if any regular person did they would go to prison for it?
Do I except the leaders of the Church as called of God or not I don't feel they have to answer to me but to God like we all do I have a hard enough time worrying about me it's up to them because it's their stewardship I pray every day to the Lord that he will strengthen their hands and hearts and know he has andwill
There in only an elephant in the room if you choose to see an elephant and think that you know how to spend the LORD'S money better than he does. I choose to give those the LORD has called and given the stewardship to spend the widow's mite; the benefit of the doubt that they are acting in good faith and doing their best to follow the promptings they receive. Why do you assume that they are acting dishonestly and trying to dodge taxes. Why should the Church be transparent about how they spend their money. They answer to the Lord not to you. The critics are making many assumptions which I don't think are valid. First of all the Church is not a philanthropic organization, The purpose of the Church is to invite all people to come unto Christ and to be perfected in Him. The three fold mission of the Church is to Proclaim the Gospel, Perfect the Saints and to Redeem the Dead. The fist principles of the Gospel are Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Enduring to the End. Notice that the First principle is Faith. Tithing is not paid with money, it is paid with Faith. Why should you be given a temple recommend if you don't have enough Faith to pay tithing. Why should you deprive the poor the opportunity to exercise their Faith such that the Lord can open the windows of heaven in their behalf.
Consider this statement by President Benson:
“The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ would take the slums out of people, and then they would take themselves out of the slums.
The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”
Yes, but the saviors direct admonition is to come without money and without price and participate. It does feel sometimes like the church has continuously placed things between us and the Savior.
Sorry but you are grossly misunderstanding the doctrine of Christ and the scriptures. First, a 4th mission of the church was added to care for the poor and needy. Second, the scriptures are fairly clear on the purpose of religion and churches. James 1:27 clearly states the purpose of religion and the church of Christ: to care for the needy. Mormon chapter 8 is a scathing condemnation of the church neglecting the poor and needy especially in relation to building opulent temples and buildings. Christ was clear to sell all you have and follow him on multiple occasions.
Also, one must take anything Benson said with a very small grain of salt given his very un-Christlike views on blacks and jaded political affiliations and teachings.
With faith there is no need for a $100 billion rainy day fund.