I mean, if you don't, it's not really H EMA, now is it?
10 месяцев назад+3
I dont know if its just me, but these remarks bring nothing of value to the table. So much needless negativity and, lately, elitism and gatekeeping, which really doesnt fit this hobby... Because at the end of the day, thats what it is, youtube is for entertainment, and this brings no fun, no joy. Honestly it feels like some "HEMA" practitioners are just jealous that Shads much more relaxed, light hearted, weeb-like, amateurish and bit clickbaity videos are just a bit more popular.
@ If he was strictly sticking to lighthearted fun and didn't speak authoritatively on subjects he knows nothing about, and didn't insist on then arguing against people who actually practice and also didn't insist on doing so by clip-chimping in bad faith, you might have a point. The issue is, that was true of Shad's channel five years ago. That's not what his channel is today. Today, he presents himself as an expert, and anybody who tries to correct him on just about anything gets an unhinged rant in response.
I am surprised at the debate, many years ago when I fenced sabre, (badly) I loved stop cutting to an opponents hand/wrist. It was accepted as a disabling blow. Many years ago I was helping teach fighting with a baton that was about as long as the elbow to finger tip, shaped like a thruppenny bit and made of oak. The first thing we taught was to step offline slightly and hit the wrist with a snapping blow, "Being carefull to not hit your partner!" The first time somebody tried it they messed up the distance and shattered their partners wrist! I wouldn't imagine a cut from a sharp sword would be much better.
that’s why I’m training on foam swords, I’m just not coordinated enough to reliably pull a a strike that’s about to crack someone in the ribs. protective gear only does so much against a metal bar going at high speeds
@@oscaranderson5719 protective gear does a LOT against a metal bar going at high speeds. Source: I have been hit with a metal bar going at high speeds thousands of times
@oscaranderson5719 Unfortunately protective equipment wasn't really available and made it difficult to do some things. We never used sharps though, my teacher trained with a chap who he said was the best he had trained with, (other than the head of our style). Unfortunately practicing for an exam a knife brushed against his thigh during a wrist lock and it sliced it open. Despite there being several people trying to hold the wound closed he bled out. We NEVER used sharps, apart from practicing iaijutsu on our own. It amazes me that some people still do because it is so easy to make a slight error and for things to go terribly wrong.
@@goodoldgrim I’ve seen a decent few videos where people had to pull strikes to the upper spine or got hurt through gear. not doubting it hasn’t protected you, but the possibility of injury is still there.
A flick with the tip of a meter long blade sharp enough to cut paper into any of vital targets like the face, temple, neck, wrist, thigh, armpit is often enough to end the fight in an unarmored setting, either through blood loss, loss of consciousness or loss of function, if not then it will open you up for a more powerful attack and weaken your defence considerably. You can do it quickly, repeatedly, deceptively and without exposing yourself much at all, it will also give your sword momentum for the next attack.
exsanguination to the point unconsciousness take an inordinate amount of time in this context and will likely end up with both of you dying of your wounds. Better to directly attack the CNS or cripple his sword hand. Doing that reliably requires cutting through bone, and that means a strong cut. It's not slower, not at all. It's only seems that way because the cut requires follow through, and that requires covery time, but what does it matter after a cut like that to the CNS connects?
@@Kinetic.44 Skall tested something equivalent to a flick cut against an anatomically accurate hand and found it cut through the bone no problem. The bones in the hand are small and dont require anything more than a flick cut in an unarmored scenario. And a stronger cut with more follow through is definitely slower because its simply travelling further.
@@zaboobebop and if you need to cut through their forearm? Because your opponent is using a complex hilt or is presenting with the point in a way that does not readily expose the hand? Some simple leather gloves can do a lot to stop a flick cut as well.
@@Kinetic.44 I really doubt the leather gloves will do much of anything. About the forearm, you don't need to cut through it completely to disable it. The muscles that allow your fingers to open and close are on either side of your forearm, any significant slash to them will screw up your grip, not to mention have you bleeding all over your hand/handle in no time.
I think if I were in a sword fight and my opponent managed to cut my arm down to the bone, unless their intention was explicitly to kill me, I'd very quickly declare myself the loser and give up
There were some videos doing the rounds a few years ago, of some insane germans doing HEMA-like fighting with sharp swords, sans protective gear. In one, there's a (seemingly inexperienced) guy coming on very strong, with big swings and aggression, and his opponent actually pauses the fight, to point out that the first guy, on the attack, has taken a bone-deep gash almost the whole way through his brachioradialis (the thick muscle on top of the lower arm), near to the elbow. It's pretty crazy, just a gnarly wound, and the guy never even noticed, until his opponent told him. They do stop the fight after that, so your point probably holds up. 😅
Yeah, it isn’t a fight ender like big swings but if that guy had cut along the forehead or hit him in the fingers or wrists, I don’t know if the big swing guy would have been able to do that. Cud the blood from his head would blind and and the blood from his wrists of fingers would have impaired his ability to hold and swing his weapon
@@Kargoneth It is! I do wonder if they got shut down by german authorities. Just crazy dangerous - I think they at least had a "no stabbing blades"-rule, so basically no rapier, and no performing stabs with longswords, etc. -- Which makes sense from a safety standpoint, since stabs are much more likely to harm you fatally than slashes, but then completely undermines the potentially informative aspect of actually accepting that wounds and blood will occur, in a fight.
@@Soren015 yeah. On WMA reddit was a post about them. If I remember correctly, someone said that these mad lads admitted having 2 fatalities or something like that. I was unable to dug deeper.
This reminds me of the bare knuckle fight between Jack Broughton and Jack Slack in 1750, where Slack, despite being allegedly less "scientific" than Broughton, managed to land a backfist onto Broughton's brow. This was far from enough to knock Broughton out, but after 14 minutes he was forced to concede because he couldn't see anymore due to the bleeding and swelling.
Love this! There is always a balance between damage and exposure - doing more damage with a strike generally leaves you more exposed (larger body movements, slower to execute/recover from, etc), as opposed to doing comparatively less damage on a strike with the faster snap cuts/flick strikes. The trick is understanding the differences, and utilizing the strikes accordingly. It's no different than a kickboxer throwing a snap jab vs a power jab, or a quick teep vs a stomp kick. Different tools in the toolbox - know how each should be used and do so accordingly.
exsanguination to the point unconsciousness take an inordinate amount of time in this context and will likely end up with both of you dying of your wounds. Better to directly attack the CNS or cripple his sword hand. Doing that reliably requires cutting through bone, and that means a strong cut. It's not slower, not at all. It's only seems that way because the cut requires follow through, and that requires covery time, but what does it matter after a cut like that to the CNS connects?
There's another tradeoff here too. With simple hilts, flick cuts and the such actually leave your arms in range to be counterattacked whereas doing a complete arm cut minimizes the time that your arms are a target. I keep having to remind myself not to stick around in long point too often with the longsword. It makes it easy for my opponents to void and target my arms.
It's actually the same sort of methodology behind thrusts. Even though you aim to stab through the target, it doesn't do you any good to stab your target completely through the chest/head etc. The damage is done and they'd have to hold the wound to stop the bleeding. The heart and lungs are about 10 to 20 mm deep, so if you've punctured the lung with a thrust of even 3 inches you've punctured the heart/lungs and the opponent is severely hurt even if he doesn't drop right away. A flick has the same properties in many ways. You aren't committing to full cut that would cleave the opponent apart, but you don't necessarily need to if you can kill him without taking a bigger risk with a heavier swing. A flick to the top of the hand or exposed forearm could easily sever ligaments and tendons needed to merely hold the sword. A flick to the face could cause all sorts of havoc for someone now fighting with a bloodied forehead, or damaged eye. And seeing as the jugular vein is easily the most exposed artery it doesn't take much force to swipe a cut for that target without over committing. And if you fail to land the cut and avoided any counter attacks from your opponent then you've lost nothing. So much of mortal combat comes from punishing your opponent for doing anything if you can, and forcing them to do things you want them to by threatening them with your weapon. This seems obvious but a man holding a weapon doesn't make him a threat to his enemy unless he uses it to force his opponent into respecting the fact that it's there. This is why stances exist at all, to prime your body to defend and attack from a position of leverage and speed. You hold the sword out so that it's not as simple as run up to him and attack. And if you have them at a range that you can snipe the hands then why not try it if he's not ready for a simple snap aimed at his extremities instead of the more vital targets. I know I went long in the tooth with this one like I did with the other video but it's because I love talking about this sort of stuff and it's always so much fun to learn knew things on the topic. Thanks again Matt :3
A small nitpick: the jugular vein is, by definition, not an artery, but rather a vein. It's capable of some good amount of blood loss, but nothing on the level of actual arteries. The important ones in the neck (for cutting at) would be the carotids, but they're ofc not as shallow as a vein. Good comment though!
Just started so might already be mentioned but jabs in boxing are for alsorts from keeping distance, creating openings, softening up etc, you'd never see a boxer just swinging hoping for a lucky knock out, i can't imagine I'd fight with a sword any different to boxing, i also noticed with a loose wrist i can do flick cuts in the same speed as i can jab and it would feel pretty safe, not much opening up or vulnerability, with a western tanto or flat seax knife they go deep into meat too, i have had a good play at it using a knife in my left and cudgel in my right and it fits very well with a boxing mindset, a sort of 'stay out of my way with snapcuts i.e jab until i see or create an opening for the big hit with the cudgel' (certainly no expert but ive a curious mind so of course any potential for overlap was destined to get explored) give it a go, its good fun and if you do box already each spar good training for both types of fighting (quick edit, the rear edge/cat claw of a bowie works fantastic for snap cuts, if you're using one in your offhand i can't see any real i wouldn't use it spine forward)
Thanks for saying this I had the same thought. The most important punch in boxing is the jab. It has the highest speed and accuracy. And the sword version would be far more devastating. Look at any boxing match and see how many jabs land. Now imagine a “light” long sword cuts landing that often.
Thanks gents, I imagine it to be even rarer to find a sword fighting or even edged weapon fighting butterbean just due to the mechanical stoppages, severed muscle or tendon no longer works, it can't be 'manned' through, it just no longer works, of course there's bound to be historical individuals that did by some act of god ha ha but that's the exception and how individuals amongst millions of forgotten end up in history books
@@immikeurnot difference is, that a guy like Butterbean can do this because he can "tank" quite a few hits in boxing. In fencing that "tactic" wouldn´t work out too well I guess :-D
not every cut can be fatal, but you also don’t need to hit that hard to sever an artery, random aggressive stranger in these replies. do you know where the femoral artery is? it runs down the inside of the thigh, and you only have to cut *half* the meat of the thigh to sever it. extreme blood loss as a result of that, 20 seconds to death and they can’t use that leg properly in the meantime. the neck? same thing, less than half the neck’s width to hit either jugular vein / carotid artery. even the upper arm has a modestly-sized artery of note. and the forearm, they can’t hit you back if their hand doesn’t work anymore - carry on wounding them at your leisure. don’t get up in arms about severity of blows if you don’t even know basic anatomy. in fact, sit back down, friendo.
@@jonharker9028 if u are talking to me 1st im not ur friend 2nd dont tell me what to do and i don't tell u where u have to go 3rd read sources to find out who "the bull" is
The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi offers an interesting insight on this very topic. In the Book of Water, Musashi differentiates between strikes and hits. In his thinking, a strike is a blow delivered with body mechanics behind it, and with ample power and intent. A hit, on the other hand, is more incidental. It could be a smaller flicking cut as described in the video, or even a more accidental contact of your sword to the opponent's body. He says that a hit can absolutely be debilitating or even fatal, but that a hit should always be followed up with a more powerful strike (i.e. a blow with intent).
crucial point here : even if fatal a incidental hit IS NOT ENOUGHT, a strike with intent is what to strive for. And it is crucial because it imply that TO KILL OR TO MAIM IS NOT THE MAIN POINT OF A STRIKE WITH INTENT ! And we know that Musashi was a sly rule-bending b@stard so it's a pragmatical thing not some bushido decorum.
@@benjaminhaupais6470 please then enlighten me what the main purpose of a follow up strike with intent is. He states pretty clearly that his chief had only goal is to kill the enemy. His being a "cheating bastard" has nothing to do with that that I can see. The second strike is done for the same reason modern soldiers use the "double tap" method, as far as I can tell: to ensure that a downed enemy is truly dead.
@@exander3636 as it seems that a incidental hit is enough to be deadly, he could just "double tap" with those, hence no need for strikes with intent AT ALL. But he says those strikes are the way to go. That's what I'm saying : there seems to be a property specific to the strikes with intent that we're overlooking. Any guess is welcome. I wonder if it's a question of stopping power ? Because dying or not you are within reach of the opponent, if he manage to retaliate here is a double. Witch is an inthinkable issue for Musashi.
@@benjaminhaupais6470 if I had to guess, the technical difference between a hit and a strike is biomechanics. He spoke about connection to the sword as you cut a few times, and it seems to me that that suggests that a strike is powered by your whole body, while a hit was more wrist- or arm-powered. A hit CAN be fatal, but a good strike will be fatal. It's about repeatability and reliability. Which, incidentally, is why I commented this. I think that Musashi would categorize the "flick cuts" which Mat is talking about as hits: potentially effective, but unreliable. If you hit someone with a flick cut, then great, but be ready to follow it up.
@@exander3636 Most likely Counter/defensive swings to create space, Swings/thrusts at their maximum range, Swings/thrusts with minimal power, Strikes at non-vital areas (testing the waters) or any Combination of the above. If these attacks hit, then they can be classified as hits. However a Strike will be a swing with the intent to disable or kill, if not dodged/avoided or defended.
very much agreed. my experience is with epee fencing for 25 years, where there is a concept called "forward point priority", that is concluding any offensive manuvre with your point menacing the opponent's armed hand. Combined with a generously sized hilt, that would shield any possible opening. I think such a practice is a legacy of what you have just explained. I have tried to fence for fun with HEMA friends and found such a posture really very much "life saving". Last but not least, thank you for the awesome knowledge and very enjoyable videos you are sharing. Greetings from Italy.
I think many people both over- as well as underestimate how much damage a cut actually does. In the first year of the pandemic, I got myself a pig's shoulder, including the claw, to try out how effective my own flick cut to the wrist actually are. I put three layers of linen around it to stimulate the several layers of medieval clothing. My experience with these tryouts was, that the technical execution of the cut was more important than the actual force used. Almost every cut that I got through the fabric, also left a quiet substantial mark in the bone. All of them would have severed the tendon (their intended target) and the muscle didn't really offer any resistance. When I took the cloth of at the end, my flick cut almost severed the bone. I did all of that with a fairly light arming sword (around 1000 gramm).
My observation Is similar, IT matters much more how good your cut Is technicaly, not how strong IT Is. But in my experience, broader cuts tend to be much easier to perform well than short flick cuts.
Great vid. 2 counterpoints to consider: Cuts from the wrist expose your hand since you have it mostly stationary and in front of your body. Cuts from the shoulder don't have to start from behind your back.
except that cut from the wrist mainly done with swords that has close hilts like later on sabre and back swords, sometime rapiers so the hand is not exposed
This is why a lot of “martial arts” experts can’t fight for real, they train for point systems and don’t understand that real fights have different rules
I recently saw a cut test with a saber. It really was sharp. He showed that he could shave hair off his arm with it. It was tested on a huge piece of meat wrapped in denim. He gave it 3 quite strong blows but the blade bounced of and didnt even cut the denim!!! I have tried a test on denim with a sharp knife. I put the denim over foam to make it more realistic and it also dint really made it through the fabric. That was quite astonishing. Under the video with the saber some commented that this problem was quite known from historic writings. And that a solution was to give the saber a rough edge with a file. So a kind of serrations. Lynn Thomson from CS who also did a lot of practical knife testing recommends fully serrated edges on self defence knifes. Are you aware of this problem? Have you maybe talked about that issue in a video?
Mathewson, 1805, as quoted by Christopher Thompson of the Cateran Society, explicitly describes a wrist-driven cut, in that he calls an "Ambuscade," where he say to "meet" at the inside of the opponent's wrist "as smartly as the spring of your wrist will give you leave...". He also says you should be "sawing" at the same time. A variation brings you inside the opponent's reach, "half sword," and using "the same spring in your wrist" cut at the throat and draw the cut as you retreat. Mathewson uses "sawing" for longitudinal cuts or slashes, pushing or pulling the edge across the target. Part of the communication issue might have to do with an absence of a fully agreed upon terminological system. To some of us, "cuts" motions approximately parallel to the length of the blade so the edge slides along the surface being cut. Chopping sees the edge in motion more or less perpendicular to the blade's length. Most cutting videos are showing what some might see as chopping.
Its funny at work i often use a little flick cut to cut banding with an exacto knife. The force of the flick inflicts more damage then pushing with a good amount of pressure on the banding. This is why i have never underestimated flick cuts they can produce a lot of damge very quickly.
In my experiences in iai-jutsu & batto-do, cutting tatami mats is a skill, and not very easy per-se to do well. I cut with both katana & wakizashi, and have proctored many cutting sessions in classes as a senior practitioner. Learning to cut is a process, especially since we cut within a specific context - not to end up in a disadvantageous posture (anticipating additional 'enemies' after having dispatched the current one). The most common problem is simply edge alignment (hasuji in Jp.). Bad edge alignment can result in a partial or ragged cut; it also puts undo stress on the blades, sometimes even bending them. I have experimented with minimal power & minimal cutting-arc cuts - it's all possible.
Yep. Iai/battou is very interesting since it's trying to find the "best" answer to a martial situation in a very often "worst case" scenario. The context under which sword drawing techniques are performed forces you at times to do "less than ideal" cuts since the default stance in those fighting styles is inherently disadvantageous (i.e. with sword still in scabbard which is probably what most people would find their sword most likely to be in for day-to-day living and is definitely not lined up for a cleanly optimized snap cut like typically seen in fencing nor a big head-splitting strike from Jodan like often done in kendo). While it is indeed true that the smaller the movement = generally safer and the bigger the movement = generally stronger, you may not always be in a position to do the "ideal" cut (whether the strongest or the quickest) possible in a given situation and have to just throw a cut from a less than ideal set-up to the best of your ability.
Agree, experienced needle in the wrist near 2cm deep and it messed up my nerves of the index finger. Recovered in 1 year. Also I want to point out that getting a light hit at the (in the middle) top of the head, may drop blood pressure, makes stunned. Do not try it or get it without a fencing mask.
As I said in the previous video about this topic, I think that the problem lies in people doing flick cuts at the head or torso with a 500 or 600 gram sword with the point of balance too close to the hand.
Nope problem in ppl doing trash hand hits and show such videos as a backup of their bs technic. Then u go the path of the Olympic fencing where ppl just jumping around attempting score hit that got nothing with fencing. And Matt promote this bs ruining hema
Was good to meet you at a legends funeral Monday, I have no recollection of the journey from Ruislip to Liverpool Street....I deffo lived up to my nickname 😉
I didn’t see the debate, but this seemed very clear to even before I saw the last video and was impressed with just how much those smaller cutss can do! …I fence with baskethilt broadsword specifically because it’s so easy to get hit in the hands with a quick little cut! 😂
Been studying The Book of Five Rings recently. While Musashi does emphasize not touching (slashing) as opposed to cutting, he also advocates for "injuring the corners" so as to cause the opponent to crumble. I know it isnt 100% applicable as he used a different type of sword but I thought it fit nicely with your point.
A story relayed to me while at a seminar many, many moons ago by Danny Inosanto was a simple knife technique. As he told the story, the person doing the demonstration hung a steak on a target. Then, with a quick flick of the wrist, the knife they guy was using removed a hunk of flesh from the steak about the size of a spoon. I don't know about you, but a hunk of flesh that bit missing from any body part is not going stop bleeding any time soon. Simple, quick cuts are dangerous. You don't need to hack off limbs to disable an opponent.
I used to work in a kitchen where you needed a knife and people, I think, are not used to the threat of a good edge. I used to cut or burn myself everyday in that kitchen and even a small cut ruins your day. Sure you can work through it but it suck and you're going to perform slower. Seriously though, I always treated an edge as if it were red hot metal. You don't even want a sharp edge to touch you let alone strike you. This is why I think Aikido is good for learning fencing. Most of fencing is footwork and Aikido applies cutting sword techniques but used those techniques unarmed. Instead of cutting your opponents arm or head off, you are cutting their balance and sometime your are even cutting into their mind by limiting their options and forcing them to make bad choices on unfavorable terms. Just like how a river can cut a canyon through a mountain an edge doesn't even need to be especially sharp to do damage. A cut just needs friction over an extended period of contact.
Honestly, even a relatively harmless cut on the forehead can decide the outcome of a fight. It only needs to bleed enough for the person to be unable to see clearly from the blood running into their eyes. And even blood in just one eye can be huge as it will basically take away spatial perception from a person who is not used to seeing trough only one eye. Wearing Metal gauntlets and metal arm protection might also be diametral in such a situation as they will make it much harder (or even impossible) to wipe the blood from your face.
Makes me think of a duel "to first blood" I imagine that whether a fight is to the death or not, to bloody your opponent is normally the end of the competitive portion of the swordfight
A good slice is all just applied and focused friction. A good cut should often feel like how it feels to light a match by, "striking," or basically dragging the match against the matchbook/box.
I've had "flick cuts" happen especially as a younger guy learning woodworking. Now some of these blades are very sharp, but even light touches have resulted in relatively serious injuries and deep cuts. And if I am being honest it's incomparably less force than the edge of a longer bladed weapon with a well sharpened edge. P.S. Some of the replies here are a little... combative to put it nicely... Relax people, we are a niche hobby... there's really not that many of us :D
Earlier swords were used between men wearing armor and/or carrying shields. They would be offered only limited targets, and "flick cuts" or limited range of motion fast cuts at non-torso targets would describe the only way to hit the only potential targets offered to hit. This was true through the English Civil War and the 30 Years War, until body armor became less common.
Head, but with shields, you don't to rally on your sword as much to defend yourself and with armor, those flick cuts but not do crap. A flick cut probably wouldn't damage a gambeson that and flick thrust wouldn't puncture chain deep in said to kill the man behind. Also, in a battlefield situation, you have multiple opponents to worry about and might be able to move about as much. Also, flicks stances leave you arm exposed. Also, there is an inbetween stage, cutting and from launching from the shoulder outwards. It isn't just cut from a circle around the or cuts from the wrist or moulinet.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Of course it very much depends on the armor and/or shield in question. At any one time on any one battlefield, that would vary widely. Over centuries, the possbilities are vast.
I had once accident in job, that I cut skin and tendon in my wrist. It was not relatively deep cut, but with damaged tendon i can't move my hand. So even shallow cuts in fight could be very dangerous, becouse you can't move your limb if tendon is damaged.
Love this channel!! And you Matt... I'm a long time sword collector in the US and would like to know where I can get a sword like you're using in this video...I've tried to find it with no luck :( Thanks for your help!!!
As an alternative to tatami, rolled wet newspaper is a pretty close analogy to human flesh. Also cheaper than ballistics gel. Speaking of, that reminds me of a video Skallagrim did where he did some test cuts on a ballistics gel hand (with embedded bone analogs) and he ended up accidentally completely severing it from the wrist with what amounted to a flick cut. So yeah, sharp objects are pretty dangerous to flesh.
Maybe I just had a lot more knife safety than most people between Boy Scouts, working in a shipping warehouse and at a few marinas, but even your own pocket knife can cut you sufficiently that you drop what you are doing. If a sword cut only takes you out of the fight for one second that is a REALLY long time!
I think anybody arguing this hasn't fought much without protective gear, and never gotten a good ding on a bony bit. That sucks whether it actually even Cuts you or not.
Also tbh, doing just enough damage to merely incapacitate for a while seems like the most compassionate thing you could do. I don't particularly like to lean on hand sniping for this reason as those probably make life a lot harder in the long run...
The educational aspects of your vlogs I really enjoy and I'm learning a lot. However, I can completely do without the vulgarity in your chosen nomenclature. Thank you. Cheers from the Oil Patch in Central Wyoming, USA.
5:50 Eh idk about that... in a tournament/sparring (at least depending on the rules) there's no benefit at all to hitting harder. I'd say people who refuse to flick cut are like boxers who never jab. But HEMA tournaments/sparring are like point fighting where there's no reason to ever throw power shots. In a real fight (with swords or fists) they obviously both have their place.
I wonder how much of this (internet) thinking is related to games. in RPGS (TT or digital) usually there is no penalty outside of losing some nebulous points. Sure, when those points go to zero fight over, but nothing happens when you go from 15 to 12. This makes people want to do the biggest hit they can.
I think it's got nothing to do with RPGs and is more to do with an overreaction to some of the more "gamey" stuff you see in Olympic fencing. The fact that the original debate was over the "fleche" (Matt is saying "flick cut" instead because it's more accurate to what the original debate was about) gives the game away. The fleche in fencing is a kind of all-out attack that relies on landing a hit milliseconds before your opponent's inevitable counter-hit, which in the Olympic scoring system means the attacker who did the fleche gets a point while the defender gets no points, but in a real duel would likely result in the attacker being severely wounded, possibly even worse than their opponent. To make matters worse, whoever started this whole "fleche is bad" thing clearly had a completely different and unrelated Olympic fencing technique in mind when they were complaining about the fleche. Specifically, they were thinking about the Olympic fencing technique where you make a quick attack at your opponent's blade with the intent of "whipping" your blade around your opponent's defending blade to score a hit. The initiator of this debate was apparently going for "this technique from Olympic fencing (that I will use the wrong name for) is not viable with sharp swords, therefore the only valid cuts are ones that use the full arm".
@@Tobascodagamabut you can use (and a lot of people use it actually) fleche in HEMA too, be that with smallswords, rapiers or longswords. In HEMA it is used in more protective way - with covered thrust especially, but if you have an opening to do it from neutral... As long as you fast enough - it's still effective. It's not that much about "milliseconds before a counter", but more about "strike as fast as you possibly can and get hell out of line", even in olympic fencing - with epee you usually run past the opponent without giving them even a chance for a counter Not to mention that in scenario with sharp weapons it would pretty much be a one-shot kill, since the amount of force generated will pass the sword through the target like it's nothing, and probably push the opponent off balance as well. Then you just run away from their sword, just in case they're still standing
It's very easy to mess up a hand. I had a friend many years ago who accidentally sliced open the back of his hand (I can't remember what he was doing, but he did admit he was doing it stupidly, like cutting towards your own body) with very little pressure, just a very sharp knife. Severed all the tendons. I can see how that, or many other small injures, could cost you a fight, maybe your life, almost accidentally if you're not mindful and focused on your own protection in real combat.
I feel like the folks involved in this argument need to be clear what sort of historical fight the HEMA match is meant to emulate. Duel to first blood, duel to the death, a battle field melee, or something else? Basically, what flavour of authenticity are you striving for? Knowing this before the discussion begins would likely help clarify matters.
I don't think it matters to the point Matt is trying to make, though. Yes, everyone agrees that in a first blood duel the small cut is effective or even advantageous, but Matt is talking about any kind of sword fight where life and limb is on the line. In that context, the question becomes, are you going to ignore the opportunity to wound your opponent just because it isn't a fight stopping wound? There are some HEMA people who seem to argue that they would. But the historical sources clearly argue that you shouldn't ignore them. A wound is a wound, and if you can safely wound your opponent without getting a wound in return, you should always take that opportunity. It gives you a chance to combo into other attacks, for one, and as Matt points out, a small injury to the hand can disarm your opponent entirely. I think the only reason that people argue against this is the way HEMA tournaments are scored. They stop the action after every blow and determine points scored entirely by location and whether it both fencers got hit in the exchange. They don't want to bother determining the effect of small injuries, so some tournament organizers simply don't score cuts that have insufficient range of motion to be a fight stopper entirely. This makes superficial sense, but gives a false sense of how it would actually go down with sharp blades. Perhaps the best way of solving the dilemma would be to let the action continue after a small cut, but add them to the score after a larger cut or thrust is delivered. But that's up to debate.
@@formlessone8246Yeah, I agree with Matt's point 100%. My point is just about helping to clarify the implicit assumptions in the discussion around it. I.e. bout judges not bothering to score small cuts.
I'd say techniques matters vastly more than size of weapon. Followed by armor. A skilled knife fighter is going to win against a novice with a long sword most of the time in an unarmored fight.
Tbh, I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the impetuous towards the development of complex guards is cus got tired of losing duels cus they got flicked in the fingers. Bare hands are very delicate. The only thing O can think of at a downside is would have trouble dealing with thick clothes and if you constantly trying to flick snipe, I don’t know how well you maintain control in a bind.
Question, I noticed in a previous video you said that tatami mats are hard to come by in the UK, why is that? Do they have laws that make their import difficult? or are they just expensive and there isn't a market for them?
Do shields and armour (vs unarmoured opponents) allow us to do larger, potentially more lethal cuts, or not due to predictability or some other factor?
I can't imagine the horror of a full on war situation where the sword is the primary weapon. It must have been hideous. Blood and guts on a muddy battlefield, easy to hit Japanese rolled up mats but imagine hundreds of people running at you with swords and daggers you would shit yourself.
Not to mention "flick thrusts" which can easily penetrate more than an inch into soft tissue. Not nice in the face or wrist or neck or.... You get my point...
Trust me a flick cut is enough, my right index finger tendons were severed, I now can't use my right index finger, this was caused by a tiny little cut in the perfect place between my knuckle bones. This cut was so tiny from a folding knife, don't under estimate a perfectly placed cut, the human body is fragile compared to steel.
That's why in my system (non-HEMA), I have 3 classes of cuts: short cuts that are launched in front of the body like what you did with flick cuts; combat cuts, shoulder or elbow powered cuts that stop after cutting through; finishing cuts, head / hip or / and leg powered without the blade coming to a stop after the cut. I also have 3 classes of powering sources: A-Head to foot; B-shoulder and elbow; C-wrist and fingers. So some short cuts can be done with C only, while some can be launched by C and then followed through with B in motion, and some can be followed through with body. So the short cuts can be C, CB or CBA in motion sequence. Finishing cuts, on the other hand, are always ABC in motion sequence. Combat cuts are often BC. I train my guys to do isolated power sources, such as cuts only with A, cuts only with B, cuts only with C, as well as changing motion sequence on the fly going with CBA in the first strike but then switch to ABC in the following strike. As the result, the reach, power and tempo are not predictable from each strike since they can come from different sources, and through different mechanisms.
After watching your demo of how devastating those flick cuts are i would defo make my self an expert at those strikes your expending less energy as well Its like a pro boxer v a street brawler when you see an opening you strike it then jump away
It cannot be stressed enough how pain impacts your ability to react. All lacerations are painful. A lacerated ear is extremely painful (I have had one). Even minor, non fatal, wounds can be very problematic. A slice across the forehead, that does not even reach bone, can blind you with blood coming into your eyes. A minor hand wound on the dominant hand can make you combat ineffective. A strike to the knee, or foot, can drastically impede your performance, even if the skin is not broken.
It also cannot be stressed enough how adrenaline affects different people’s perception of pain. Injuries that incapacitate one person, another may not even realize happened.
@Specter_1125 100% This are plenty of cases where people, not on drugs, have been cut or stabbed and kept going. Hell, Matt has accounts of people getting shot repeatedly and still fighting. Humans' ability to ignore injuries should not be ignored.
@@bentrieschmann Hell, my first time in skirminsh in the SCA a decade, I remember hearing a tump on my helmet (something you supposed to act as a killing blow in my SCA rules), I thought it was the wind....... It took getting baseball bated in the kidneys for me to acknowledged I had been struck.
Peoples bodies are simultaneously weaker and more resilient than people think. Will a flick cut to the thigh or non weapon shoulder end a given fight? Then and there, probably not. But it does slow them down, or force them to try to even things out. It might even give you an opportunity to escape, or your buddies a chance to end the fight for you.
Yep. And you may not even need to throw a big smash attack to score a KO depending on which character you're using, your skill, and where you are on the stage (e.g. Marth Ken-comboing someone off the stage and then tipper-spiking someone downward or Fox's infamous combos into shine-spike). Of course having big moves with big kill potential is nice and the main strategy for some characters (e.g. DK or Ike), but what's also interesting is that very often the heavy-hitters in a lot of fighting games including Smash are usually popular among newbies, but at higher skill levels in tournaments they tend to drop into lower tiers in tier lists which is probably because the skill level among players at tournaments is much higher which means a larger player base that can pull off the more complex sort of tech for KOs that don't require big smash attacks.
Flick cuts can take off limbs of & certainly delicate parts like wrists, hands & fingers. Push & draw cuts is were a court sword & tuck which historically both have been called rapiers. Rapier originally French means rasp or grater which such swords are dangerous without the wicked point for a thrust even considered. You do need to be bit callous or even sadistic to rasp flesh off a man which is likely why in the 17th to the19th century sabres became popular though inferior as they are certainly more honourable & les gruesome. Pirates & thieves often had no qualms using rapiers in time though originally used by nobility from a harsher time in the 15th & 16th century. Perspectives for types arms & armour do change considerably basis on usually fanciful notions in societies of the era. Mind as much as I like a rapier I find shorter hacking blades that double as a tool like a Kopis, Kukri or hanger to be far more useful for confined spaces & general use. A blade spends 99% of it's time in sheath it is not tool making it effectively dead useless weight. All is preference at the end of the day mind.
"We work from the treatises - well, most of us do anyway - in HEMA."
Now *that* was a flick cut. 😂
Waiting for a 2 hour video response...
I mean, if you don't, it's not really H EMA, now is it?
I dont know if its just me, but these remarks bring nothing of value to the table. So much needless negativity and, lately, elitism and gatekeeping, which really doesnt fit this hobby...
Because at the end of the day, thats what it is, youtube is for entertainment, and this brings no fun, no joy. Honestly it feels like some "HEMA" practitioners are just jealous that Shads much more relaxed, light hearted, weeb-like, amateurish and bit clickbaity videos are just a bit more popular.
@ Amateurish arrogant misinformation being more popular than grounded factual discussion is vexing yes, but not worthy of envy
@ If he was strictly sticking to lighthearted fun and didn't speak authoritatively on subjects he knows nothing about, and didn't insist on then arguing against people who actually practice and also didn't insist on doing so by clip-chimping in bad faith, you might have a point. The issue is, that was true of Shad's channel five years ago. That's not what his channel is today. Today, he presents himself as an expert, and anybody who tries to correct him on just about anything gets an unhinged rant in response.
I am surprised at the debate, many years ago when I fenced sabre, (badly) I loved stop cutting to an opponents hand/wrist. It was accepted as a disabling blow.
Many years ago I was helping teach fighting with a baton that was about as long as the elbow to finger tip, shaped like a thruppenny bit and made of oak. The first thing we taught was to step offline slightly and hit the wrist with a snapping blow, "Being carefull to not hit your partner!" The first time somebody tried it they messed up the distance and shattered their partners wrist! I wouldn't imagine a cut from a sharp sword would be much better.
that’s why I’m training on foam swords, I’m just not coordinated enough to reliably pull a a strike that’s about to crack someone in the ribs. protective gear only does so much against a metal bar going at high speeds
@@oscaranderson5719 protective gear does a LOT against a metal bar going at high speeds. Source: I have been hit with a metal bar going at high speeds thousands of times
@oscaranderson5719 Unfortunately protective equipment wasn't really available and made it difficult to do some things. We never used sharps though, my teacher trained with a chap who he said was the best he had trained with, (other than the head of our style). Unfortunately practicing for an exam a knife brushed against his thigh during a wrist lock and it sliced it open. Despite there being several people trying to hold the wound closed he bled out. We NEVER used sharps, apart from practicing iaijutsu on our own. It amazes me that some people still do because it is so easy to make a slight error and for things to go terribly wrong.
@@tedrex8959 damn, that’s crazy
@@goodoldgrim I’ve seen a decent few videos where people had to pull strikes to the upper spine or got hurt through gear. not doubting it hasn’t protected you, but the possibility of injury is still there.
we can debate weather the cut was heavy enough as you pick up your fingers off the floor.
Or the volume of blood lost after the cuts.
@@KaizoeAzurum Yep. Every drop lost is strength and stamina lost.
Since no HEMA match has ever resulted in servered fingers, no cut was ever heavy enough? 😔
@@MarcRitzMD we will discuss it while the 3 broken knuckles are being set back in place.
Please wait till the process of picking up is completed, for the sake of civility and culture.
A flick with the tip of a meter long blade sharp enough to cut paper into any of vital targets like the face, temple, neck, wrist, thigh, armpit is often enough to end the fight in an unarmored setting, either through blood loss, loss of consciousness or loss of function, if not then it will open you up for a more powerful attack and weaken your defence considerably. You can do it quickly, repeatedly, deceptively and without exposing yourself much at all, it will also give your sword momentum for the next attack.
And it is even quite destructive if you use a steel rod or a heavy wooden stick.
exsanguination to the point unconsciousness take an inordinate amount of time in this context and will likely end up with both of you dying of your wounds. Better to directly attack the CNS or cripple his sword hand. Doing that reliably requires cutting through bone, and that means a strong cut. It's not slower, not at all. It's only seems that way because the cut requires follow through, and that requires covery time, but what does it matter after a cut like that to the CNS connects?
@@Kinetic.44 Skall tested something equivalent to a flick cut against an anatomically accurate hand and found it cut through the bone no problem. The bones in the hand are small and dont require anything more than a flick cut in an unarmored scenario. And a stronger cut with more follow through is definitely slower because its simply travelling further.
@@zaboobebop and if you need to cut through their forearm? Because your opponent is using a complex hilt or is presenting with the point in a way that does not readily expose the hand? Some simple leather gloves can do a lot to stop a flick cut as well.
@@Kinetic.44 I really doubt the leather gloves will do much of anything. About the forearm, you don't need to cut through it completely to disable it. The muscles that allow your fingers to open and close are on either side of your forearm, any significant slash to them will screw up your grip, not to mention have you bleeding all over your hand/handle in no time.
I think if I were in a sword fight and my opponent managed to cut my arm down to the bone, unless their intention was explicitly to kill me, I'd very quickly declare myself the loser and give up
There were some videos doing the rounds a few years ago, of some insane germans doing HEMA-like fighting with sharp swords, sans protective gear. In one, there's a (seemingly inexperienced) guy coming on very strong, with big swings and aggression, and his opponent actually pauses the fight, to point out that the first guy, on the attack, has taken a bone-deep gash almost the whole way through his brachioradialis (the thick muscle on top of the lower arm), near to the elbow. It's pretty crazy, just a gnarly wound, and the guy never even noticed, until his opponent told him. They do stop the fight after that, so your point probably holds up. 😅
@Soren That's messed up.
Yeah, it isn’t a fight ender like big swings but if that guy had cut along the forehead or hit him in the fingers or wrists, I don’t know if the big swing guy would have been able to do that. Cud the blood from his head would blind and and the blood from his wrists of fingers would have impaired his ability to hold and swing his weapon
@@Kargoneth It is! I do wonder if they got shut down by german authorities. Just crazy dangerous - I think they at least had a "no stabbing blades"-rule, so basically no rapier, and no performing stabs with longswords, etc. -- Which makes sense from a safety standpoint, since stabs are much more likely to harm you fatally than slashes, but then completely undermines the potentially informative aspect of actually accepting that wounds and blood will occur, in a fight.
@@Soren015 yeah. On WMA reddit was a post about them. If I remember correctly, someone said that these mad lads admitted having 2 fatalities or something like that. I was unable to dug deeper.
This reminds me of the bare knuckle fight between Jack Broughton and Jack Slack in 1750, where Slack, despite being allegedly less "scientific" than Broughton, managed to land a backfist onto Broughton's brow. This was far from enough to knock Broughton out, but after 14 minutes he was forced to concede because he couldn't see anymore due to the bleeding and swelling.
Love this! There is always a balance between damage and exposure - doing more damage with a strike generally leaves you more exposed (larger body movements, slower to execute/recover from, etc), as opposed to doing comparatively less damage on a strike with the faster snap cuts/flick strikes. The trick is understanding the differences, and utilizing the strikes accordingly.
It's no different than a kickboxer throwing a snap jab vs a power jab, or a quick teep vs a stomp kick. Different tools in the toolbox - know how each should be used and do so accordingly.
exsanguination to the point unconsciousness take an inordinate amount of time in this context and will likely end up with both of you dying of your wounds. Better to directly attack the CNS or cripple his sword hand. Doing that reliably requires cutting through bone, and that means a strong cut. It's not slower, not at all. It's only seems that way because the cut requires follow through, and that requires covery time, but what does it matter after a cut like that to the CNS connects?
There's another tradeoff here too. With simple hilts, flick cuts and the such actually leave your arms in range to be counterattacked whereas doing a complete arm cut minimizes the time that your arms are a target. I keep having to remind myself not to stick around in long point too often with the longsword. It makes it easy for my opponents to void and target my arms.
@@catocall7323 fair point - my training (for edged weapons, anyway) is primarily FMA/knife work, so hilts are rarely something I have to contend with.
It's actually the same sort of methodology behind thrusts. Even though you aim to stab through the target, it doesn't do you any good to stab your target completely through the chest/head etc. The damage is done and they'd have to hold the wound to stop the bleeding. The heart and lungs are about 10 to 20 mm deep, so if you've punctured the lung with a thrust of even 3 inches you've punctured the heart/lungs and the opponent is severely hurt even if he doesn't drop right away.
A flick has the same properties in many ways. You aren't committing to full cut that would cleave the opponent apart, but you don't necessarily need to if you can kill him without taking a bigger risk with a heavier swing. A flick to the top of the hand or exposed forearm could easily sever ligaments and tendons needed to merely hold the sword. A flick to the face could cause all sorts of havoc for someone now fighting with a bloodied forehead, or damaged eye. And seeing as the jugular vein is easily the most exposed artery it doesn't take much force to swipe a cut for that target without over committing.
And if you fail to land the cut and avoided any counter attacks from your opponent then you've lost nothing. So much of mortal combat comes from punishing your opponent for doing anything if you can, and forcing them to do things you want them to by threatening them with your weapon. This seems obvious but a man holding a weapon doesn't make him a threat to his enemy unless he uses it to force his opponent into respecting the fact that it's there. This is why stances exist at all, to prime your body to defend and attack from a position of leverage and speed. You hold the sword out so that it's not as simple as run up to him and attack. And if you have them at a range that you can snipe the hands then why not try it if he's not ready for a simple snap aimed at his extremities instead of the more vital targets.
I know I went long in the tooth with this one like I did with the other video but it's because I love talking about this sort of stuff and it's always so much fun to learn knew things on the topic. Thanks again Matt :3
A small nitpick: the jugular vein is, by definition, not an artery, but rather a vein. It's capable of some good amount of blood loss, but nothing on the level of actual arteries. The important ones in the neck (for cutting at) would be the carotids, but they're ofc not as shallow as a vein. Good comment though!
@@pipp972 We could call it splitting hairs, but that's how we learn things :D I actually didn't know that detail about veins.
20 cm not mm
You might already know this but Seki sensei made a video looking at a rapier, and I would love to see a response like you did with the longsword
"Rapier"
Just started so might already be mentioned but jabs in boxing are for alsorts from keeping distance, creating openings, softening up etc, you'd never see a boxer just swinging hoping for a lucky knock out, i can't imagine I'd fight with a sword any different to boxing, i also noticed with a loose wrist i can do flick cuts in the same speed as i can jab and it would feel pretty safe, not much opening up or vulnerability, with a western tanto or flat seax knife they go deep into meat too, i have had a good play at it using a knife in my left and cudgel in my right and it fits very well with a boxing mindset, a sort of 'stay out of my way with snapcuts i.e jab until i see or create an opening for the big hit with the cudgel' (certainly no expert but ive a curious mind so of course any potential for overlap was destined to get explored) give it a go, its good fun and if you do box already each spar good training for both types of fighting (quick edit, the rear edge/cat claw of a bowie works fantastic for snap cuts, if you're using one in your offhand i can't see any real i wouldn't use it spine forward)
Thanks for saying this I had the same thought. The most important punch in boxing is the jab. It has the highest speed and accuracy. And the sword version would be far more devastating.
Look at any boxing match and see how many jabs land. Now imagine a “light” long sword cuts landing that often.
Sometimes a boxer like Butterbean shows up and is successful at just throwing bombs until one connects. But you're right; it's rare.
Thanks gents, I imagine it to be even rarer to find a sword fighting or even edged weapon fighting butterbean just due to the mechanical stoppages, severed muscle or tendon no longer works, it can't be 'manned' through, it just no longer works, of course there's bound to be historical individuals that did by some act of god ha ha but that's the exception and how individuals amongst millions of forgotten end up in history books
@@immikeurnot difference is, that a guy like Butterbean can do this because he can "tank" quite a few hits in boxing. In fencing that "tactic" wouldn´t work out too well I guess :-D
that this even needs to be explained. Have you ever seen a boxing match? Not every punch is meant to knock out your opponent
Have u ever seen match when barely injured person win?
Stop being a prophet be a fencer and cultivate technic that deliver fatal blows not scratches
not every cut can be fatal, but you also don’t need to hit that hard to sever an artery, random aggressive stranger in these replies.
do you know where the femoral artery is? it runs down the inside of the thigh, and you only have to cut *half* the meat of the thigh to sever it. extreme blood loss as a result of that, 20 seconds to death and they can’t use that leg properly in the meantime.
the neck? same thing, less than half the neck’s width to hit either jugular vein / carotid artery.
even the upper arm has a modestly-sized artery of note. and the forearm, they can’t hit you back if their hand doesn’t work anymore - carry on wounding them at your leisure.
don’t get up in arms about severity of blows if you don’t even know basic anatomy. in fact, sit back down, friendo.
@@jonharker9028 if u are talking to me
1st im not ur friend
2nd dont tell me what to do and i don't tell u where u have to go
3rd read sources to find out who "the bull" is
That is exactly what I was thinking about. Attrition is a real thing.
As a rule of thumb: if you can hit your opponent while staying safe, do it.
The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi offers an interesting insight on this very topic. In the Book of Water, Musashi differentiates between strikes and hits. In his thinking, a strike is a blow delivered with body mechanics behind it, and with ample power and intent. A hit, on the other hand, is more incidental. It could be a smaller flicking cut as described in the video, or even a more accidental contact of your sword to the opponent's body. He says that a hit can absolutely be debilitating or even fatal, but that a hit should always be followed up with a more powerful strike (i.e. a blow with intent).
crucial point here : even if fatal a incidental hit IS NOT ENOUGHT, a strike with intent is what to strive for. And it is crucial because it imply that TO KILL OR TO MAIM IS NOT THE MAIN POINT OF A STRIKE WITH INTENT !
And we know that Musashi was a sly rule-bending b@stard so it's a pragmatical thing not some bushido decorum.
@@benjaminhaupais6470 please then enlighten me what the main purpose of a follow up strike with intent is. He states pretty clearly that his chief had only goal is to kill the enemy. His being a "cheating bastard" has nothing to do with that that I can see. The second strike is done for the same reason modern soldiers use the "double tap" method, as far as I can tell: to ensure that a downed enemy is truly dead.
@@exander3636 as it seems that a incidental hit is enough to be deadly, he could just "double tap" with those, hence no need for strikes with intent AT ALL. But he says those strikes are the way to go. That's what I'm saying : there seems to be a property specific to the strikes with intent that we're overlooking. Any guess is welcome. I wonder if it's a question of stopping power ? Because dying or not you are within reach of the opponent, if he manage to retaliate here is a double. Witch is an inthinkable issue for Musashi.
@@benjaminhaupais6470 if I had to guess, the technical difference between a hit and a strike is biomechanics. He spoke about connection to the sword as you cut a few times, and it seems to me that that suggests that a strike is powered by your whole body, while a hit was more wrist- or arm-powered. A hit CAN be fatal, but a good strike will be fatal. It's about repeatability and reliability.
Which, incidentally, is why I commented this. I think that Musashi would categorize the "flick cuts" which Mat is talking about as hits: potentially effective, but unreliable. If you hit someone with a flick cut, then great, but be ready to follow it up.
@@exander3636 Most likely Counter/defensive swings to create space, Swings/thrusts at their maximum range, Swings/thrusts with minimal power, Strikes at non-vital areas (testing the waters) or any Combination of the above. If these attacks hit, then they can be classified as hits.
However a Strike will be a swing with the intent to disable or kill, if not dodged/avoided or defended.
very much agreed. my experience is with epee fencing for 25 years, where there is a concept called "forward point priority", that is concluding any offensive manuvre with your point menacing the opponent's armed hand. Combined with a generously sized hilt, that would shield any possible opening. I think such a practice is a legacy of what you have just explained. I have tried to fence for fun with HEMA friends and found such a posture really very much "life saving".
Last but not least, thank you for the awesome knowledge and very enjoyable videos you are sharing. Greetings from Italy.
I think many people both over- as well as underestimate how much damage a cut actually does.
In the first year of the pandemic, I got myself a pig's shoulder, including the claw, to try out how effective my own flick cut to the wrist actually are.
I put three layers of linen around it to stimulate the several layers of medieval clothing.
My experience with these tryouts was, that the technical execution of the cut was more important than the actual force used.
Almost every cut that I got through the fabric, also left a quiet substantial mark in the bone.
All of them would have severed the tendon (their intended target) and the muscle didn't really offer any resistance.
When I took the cloth of at the end, my flick cut almost severed the bone.
I did all of that with a fairly light arming sword (around 1000 gramm).
My observation Is similar, IT matters much more how good your cut Is technicaly, not how strong IT Is. But in my experience, broader cuts tend to be much easier to perform well than short flick cuts.
Really nice re-reaction, Matt. ❤
The whole point of sharpness is so the sword can do damage without having to hit really hard.
Push cuts and slide cuts should be a part of this conversation as well
The Mista Guardia stance in fencing embodies essential principles of precision, control, and adaptability.
Great vid. 2 counterpoints to consider: Cuts from the wrist expose your hand since you have it mostly stationary and in front of your body. Cuts from the shoulder don't have to start from behind your back.
except that cut from the wrist mainly done with swords that has close hilts like later on sabre and back swords, sometime rapiers so the hand is not exposed
This is why a lot of “martial arts” experts can’t fight for real, they train for point systems and don’t understand that real fights have different rules
I recently saw a cut test with a saber. It really was sharp. He showed that he could shave hair off his arm with it. It was tested on a huge piece of meat wrapped in denim. He gave it 3 quite strong blows but the blade bounced of and didnt even cut the denim!!! I have tried a test on denim with a sharp knife. I put the denim over foam to make it more realistic and it also dint really made it through the fabric. That was quite astonishing. Under the video with the saber some commented that this problem was quite known from historic writings. And that a solution was to give the saber a rough edge with a file. So a kind of serrations. Lynn Thomson from CS who also did a lot of practical knife testing recommends fully serrated edges on self defence knifes. Are you aware of this problem? Have you maybe talked about that issue in a video?
Mathewson, 1805, as quoted by Christopher Thompson of the Cateran Society, explicitly describes a wrist-driven cut, in that he calls an "Ambuscade," where he say to "meet" at the inside of the opponent's wrist "as smartly as the spring of your wrist will give you leave...". He also says you should be "sawing" at the same time. A variation brings you inside the opponent's reach, "half sword," and using "the same spring in your wrist" cut at the throat and draw the cut as you retreat. Mathewson uses "sawing" for longitudinal cuts or slashes, pushing or pulling the edge across the target. Part of the communication issue might have to do with an absence of a fully agreed upon terminological system. To some of us, "cuts" motions approximately parallel to the length of the blade so the edge slides along the surface being cut. Chopping sees the edge in motion more or less perpendicular to the blade's length. Most cutting videos are showing what some might see as chopping.
Trained Kali and combat experienced here. Yer quite right. In more ways than dueling.
Its funny at work i often use a little flick cut to cut banding with an exacto knife. The force of the flick inflicts more damage then pushing with a good amount of pressure on the banding. This is why i have never underestimated flick cuts they can produce a lot of damge very quickly.
This reminded me of 'Spartacus' line; 'go for the cripple before the slow kill'.
In my experiences in iai-jutsu & batto-do, cutting tatami mats is a skill, and not very easy per-se to do well. I cut with both katana & wakizashi, and have proctored many cutting sessions in classes as a senior practitioner. Learning to cut is a process, especially since we cut within a specific context - not to end up in a disadvantageous posture (anticipating additional 'enemies' after having dispatched the current one). The most common problem is simply edge alignment (hasuji in Jp.). Bad edge alignment can result in a partial or ragged cut; it also puts undo stress on the blades, sometimes even bending them. I have experimented with minimal power & minimal cutting-arc cuts - it's all possible.
Yep. Iai/battou is very interesting since it's trying to find the "best" answer to a martial situation in a very often "worst case" scenario. The context under which sword drawing techniques are performed forces you at times to do "less than ideal" cuts since the default stance in those fighting styles is inherently disadvantageous (i.e. with sword still in scabbard which is probably what most people would find their sword most likely to be in for day-to-day living and is definitely not lined up for a cleanly optimized snap cut like typically seen in fencing nor a big head-splitting strike from Jodan like often done in kendo). While it is indeed true that the smaller the movement = generally safer and the bigger the movement = generally stronger, you may not always be in a position to do the "ideal" cut (whether the strongest or the quickest) possible in a given situation and have to just throw a cut from a less than ideal set-up to the best of your ability.
Thanks, Matt.
Agree, experienced needle in the wrist near 2cm deep and it messed up my nerves of the index finger. Recovered in 1 year. Also I want to point out that getting a light hit at the (in the middle) top of the head, may drop blood pressure, makes stunned. Do not try it or get it without a fencing mask.
The snap cut would work seamlessly with a follow-up thrust. So, from non-lethal to deadly in one motion.
As I said in the previous video about this topic, I think that the problem lies in people doing flick cuts at the head or torso with a 500 or 600 gram sword with the point of balance too close to the hand.
Nope problem in ppl doing trash hand hits and show such videos as a backup of their bs technic.
Then u go the path of the Olympic fencing where ppl just jumping around attempting score hit that got nothing with fencing.
And Matt promote this bs ruining hema
Was good to meet you at a legends funeral Monday, I have no recollection of the journey from Ruislip to Liverpool Street....I deffo lived up to my nickname 😉
Good explanation Matt, thank you. I think if you have time to do some cutting examples it would be interesting.
I didn’t see the debate, but this seemed very clear to even before I saw the last video and was impressed with just how much those smaller cutss can do! …I fence with baskethilt broadsword specifically because it’s so easy to get hit in the hands with a quick little cut! 😂
Don't worry about the tatami mats unless it's kinder on edges. As you said, the soaked oak branches are good analogues for limb bones.
I practiced flick cuts with a replica norman broadsword, a bit heavier than a live blade but well ballanced, more than possible.
Been studying The Book of Five Rings recently. While Musashi does emphasize not touching (slashing) as opposed to cutting, he also advocates for "injuring the corners" so as to cause the opponent to crumble.
I know it isnt 100% applicable as he used a different type of sword but I thought it fit nicely with your point.
Beautiful video!
Modern saber fencing taught me that an unexpected tap can break one's sense competence.
A story relayed to me while at a seminar many, many moons ago by Danny Inosanto was a simple knife technique. As he told the story, the person doing the demonstration hung a steak on a target. Then, with a quick flick of the wrist, the knife they guy was using removed a hunk of flesh from the steak about the size of a spoon. I don't know about you, but a hunk of flesh that bit missing from any body part is not going stop bleeding any time soon. Simple, quick cuts are dangerous. You don't need to hack off limbs to disable an opponent.
I used to work in a kitchen where you needed a knife and people, I think, are not used to the threat of a good edge. I used to cut or burn myself everyday in that kitchen and even a small cut ruins your day. Sure you can work through it but it suck and you're going to perform slower.
Seriously though, I always treated an edge as if it were red hot metal. You don't even want a sharp edge to touch you let alone strike you.
This is why I think Aikido is good for learning fencing. Most of fencing is footwork and Aikido applies cutting sword techniques but used those techniques unarmed. Instead of cutting your opponents arm or head off, you are cutting their balance and sometime your are even cutting into their mind by limiting their options and forcing them to make bad choices on unfavorable terms.
Just like how a river can cut a canyon through a mountain an edge doesn't even need to be especially sharp to do damage. A cut just needs friction over an extended period of contact.
Honestly, even a relatively harmless cut on the forehead can decide the outcome of a fight. It only needs to bleed enough for the person to be unable to see clearly from the blood running into their eyes. And even blood in just one eye can be huge as it will basically take away spatial perception from a person who is not used to seeing trough only one eye. Wearing Metal gauntlets and metal arm protection might also be diametral in such a situation as they will make it much harder (or even impossible) to wipe the blood from your face.
Getting in the first hit, even if it is light, may also be all you need to do. A lot of people will react by running away at that point.
Speaking for myself, even a moderate gash on my finger/hand/wrist/forearm would have me seriously reconsider the value of continuing that fight.
Makes me think of a duel "to first blood"
I imagine that whether a fight is to the death or not, to bloody your opponent is normally the end of the competitive portion of the swordfight
A good slice is all just applied and focused friction. A good cut should often feel like how it feels to light a match by, "striking," or basically dragging the match against the matchbook/box.
I've had "flick cuts" happen especially as a younger guy learning woodworking. Now some of these blades are very sharp, but even light touches have resulted in relatively serious injuries and deep cuts. And if I am being honest it's incomparably less force than the edge of a longer bladed weapon with a well sharpened edge.
P.S. Some of the replies here are a little... combative to put it nicely... Relax people, we are a niche hobby... there's really not that many of us :D
Earlier swords were used between men wearing armor and/or carrying shields. They would be offered only limited targets, and "flick cuts" or limited range of motion fast cuts at non-torso targets would describe the only way to hit the only potential targets offered to hit. This was true through the English Civil War and the 30 Years War, until body armor became less common.
Head, but with shields, you don't to rally on your sword as much to defend yourself and with armor, those flick cuts but not do crap. A flick cut probably wouldn't damage a gambeson that and flick thrust wouldn't puncture chain deep in said to kill the man behind. Also, in a battlefield situation, you have multiple opponents to worry about and might be able to move about as much. Also, flicks stances leave you arm exposed. Also, there is an inbetween stage, cutting and from launching from the shoulder outwards. It isn't just cut from a circle around the or cuts from the wrist or moulinet.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Of course it very much depends on the armor and/or shield in question. At any one time on any one battlefield, that would vary widely. Over centuries, the possbilities are vast.
I had once accident in job, that I cut skin and tendon in my wrist. It was not relatively deep cut, but with damaged tendon i can't move my hand. So even shallow cuts in fight could be very dangerous, becouse you can't move your limb if tendon is damaged.
With more than 10 years in full contact Stick fighting I can totally agree
These things remind me of jabs in boxing. Unlikely to deliver a knockout by themselves, but unlikely to get a knockout without them.
Love this channel!! And you Matt... I'm a long time sword collector in the US and would like to know where I can get a sword like you're using in this video...I've tried to find it with no luck :( Thanks for your help!!!
Curious about your insight on minimally effective strength used for a flick cut. I'm guessing less than bottle cutting strength suffices.
As an alternative to tatami, rolled wet newspaper is a pretty close analogy to human flesh. Also cheaper than ballistics gel.
Speaking of, that reminds me of a video Skallagrim did where he did some test cuts on a ballistics gel hand (with embedded bone analogs) and he ended up accidentally completely severing it from the wrist with what amounted to a flick cut. So yeah, sharp objects are pretty dangerous to flesh.
that's a beautiful sword
I am a big fan of the small cut.
Hey can you make a video about possibility of shooting crossbow while riding a horse
Maybe I just had a lot more knife safety than most people between Boy Scouts, working in a shipping warehouse and at a few marinas, but even your own pocket knife can cut you sufficiently that you drop what you are doing. If a sword cut only takes you out of the fight for one second that is a REALLY long time!
I think anybody arguing this hasn't fought much without protective gear, and never gotten a good ding on a bony bit. That sucks whether it actually even Cuts you or not.
Also tbh, doing just enough damage to merely incapacitate for a while seems like the most compassionate thing you could do.
I don't particularly like to lean on hand sniping for this reason as those probably make life a lot harder in the long run...
A blade doesn't even have to be swinging, if you can bring it along the target!
Thanks for the video
The educational aspects of your vlogs I really enjoy and I'm learning a lot. However, I can completely do without the vulgarity in your chosen nomenclature.
Thank you.
Cheers from the Oil Patch in Central Wyoming, USA.
Death by 1000 cuts is a phrase for a reason.
OH YEEEEEAAAAAAAH
Yes, a cut is a cut, but more importantly, Miles Morales is Miles Morales.
5:50 Eh idk about that... in a tournament/sparring (at least depending on the rules) there's no benefit at all to hitting harder. I'd say people who refuse to flick cut are like boxers who never jab. But HEMA tournaments/sparring are like point fighting where there's no reason to ever throw power shots. In a real fight (with swords or fists) they obviously both have their place.
''Run trough the body - Death - Fight over''
Nice jumper
I wonder how much of this (internet) thinking is related to games. in RPGS (TT or digital) usually there is no penalty outside of losing some nebulous points. Sure, when those points go to zero fight over, but nothing happens when you go from 15 to 12. This makes people want to do the biggest hit they can.
I think it's got nothing to do with RPGs and is more to do with an overreaction to some of the more "gamey" stuff you see in Olympic fencing. The fact that the original debate was over the "fleche" (Matt is saying "flick cut" instead because it's more accurate to what the original debate was about) gives the game away. The fleche in fencing is a kind of all-out attack that relies on landing a hit milliseconds before your opponent's inevitable counter-hit, which in the Olympic scoring system means the attacker who did the fleche gets a point while the defender gets no points, but in a real duel would likely result in the attacker being severely wounded, possibly even worse than their opponent.
To make matters worse, whoever started this whole "fleche is bad" thing clearly had a completely different and unrelated Olympic fencing technique in mind when they were complaining about the fleche. Specifically, they were thinking about the Olympic fencing technique where you make a quick attack at your opponent's blade with the intent of "whipping" your blade around your opponent's defending blade to score a hit.
The initiator of this debate was apparently going for "this technique from Olympic fencing (that I will use the wrong name for) is not viable with sharp swords, therefore the only valid cuts are ones that use the full arm".
@@Tobascodagamabut you can use (and a lot of people use it actually) fleche in HEMA too, be that with smallswords, rapiers or longswords. In HEMA it is used in more protective way - with covered thrust especially, but if you have an opening to do it from neutral... As long as you fast enough - it's still effective.
It's not that much about "milliseconds before a counter", but more about "strike as fast as you possibly can and get hell out of line", even in olympic fencing - with epee you usually run past the opponent without giving them even a chance for a counter
Not to mention that in scenario with sharp weapons it would pretty much be a one-shot kill, since the amount of force generated will pass the sword through the target like it's nothing, and probably push the opponent off balance as well. Then you just run away from their sword, just in case they're still standing
It's very easy to mess up a hand. I had a friend many years ago who accidentally sliced open the back of his hand (I can't remember what he was doing, but he did admit he was doing it stupidly, like cutting towards your own body) with very little pressure, just a very sharp knife. Severed all the tendons. I can see how that, or many other small injures, could cost you a fight, maybe your life, almost accidentally if you're not mindful and focused on your own protection in real combat.
The ancient Gauls overly exposed themselves during combat. No wait... that was indecently exposing. They kept themselves safe behind large shields.
Is that kite shield new? 🤔
I feel like the folks involved in this argument need to be clear what sort of historical fight the HEMA match is meant to emulate. Duel to first blood, duel to the death, a battle field melee, or something else? Basically, what flavour of authenticity are you striving for? Knowing this before the discussion begins would likely help clarify matters.
I don't think it matters to the point Matt is trying to make, though. Yes, everyone agrees that in a first blood duel the small cut is effective or even advantageous, but Matt is talking about any kind of sword fight where life and limb is on the line. In that context, the question becomes, are you going to ignore the opportunity to wound your opponent just because it isn't a fight stopping wound? There are some HEMA people who seem to argue that they would. But the historical sources clearly argue that you shouldn't ignore them. A wound is a wound, and if you can safely wound your opponent without getting a wound in return, you should always take that opportunity. It gives you a chance to combo into other attacks, for one, and as Matt points out, a small injury to the hand can disarm your opponent entirely.
I think the only reason that people argue against this is the way HEMA tournaments are scored. They stop the action after every blow and determine points scored entirely by location and whether it both fencers got hit in the exchange. They don't want to bother determining the effect of small injuries, so some tournament organizers simply don't score cuts that have insufficient range of motion to be a fight stopper entirely. This makes superficial sense, but gives a false sense of how it would actually go down with sharp blades. Perhaps the best way of solving the dilemma would be to let the action continue after a small cut, but add them to the score after a larger cut or thrust is delivered. But that's up to debate.
@@formlessone8246Yeah, I agree with Matt's point 100%. My point is just about helping to clarify the implicit assumptions in the discussion around it. I.e. bout judges not bothering to score small cuts.
In other words, size matters, but proper technique is just as important.
I wonder if this also applies to sword cuts.
I'd say techniques matters vastly more than size of weapon. Followed by armor. A skilled knife fighter is going to win against a novice with a long sword most of the time in an unarmored fight.
I not sure you are talking about sword or "sword"
@@chengkuoklee5734 Some swords are designed better for penetration
@@weylins You are quite correct. But it would be wise to wear protection, so long as size permits it, of course.
Depends where you get the stroke
Was thinking this whole time about Schitelhowe...
Tbh, I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the impetuous towards the development of complex guards is cus got tired of losing duels cus they got flicked in the fingers. Bare hands are very delicate. The only thing O can think of at a downside is would have trouble dealing with thick clothes and if you constantly trying to flick snipe, I don’t know how well you maintain control in a bind.
Question, I noticed in a previous video you said that tatami mats are hard to come by in the UK, why is that? Do they have laws that make their import difficult? or are they just expensive and there isn't a market for them?
The latter.
Do shields and armour (vs unarmoured opponents) allow us to do larger, potentially more lethal cuts, or not due to predictability or some other factor?
Yes. Armoured can deploy high risk movements.
I can't imagine the horror of a full on war situation where the sword is the primary weapon. It must have been hideous.
Blood and guts on a muddy battlefield, easy to hit Japanese rolled up mats but imagine hundreds of people running at you with swords and daggers you would shit yourself.
Not to mention "flick thrusts" which can easily penetrate more than an inch into soft tissue. Not nice in the face or wrist or neck or.... You get my point...
Me: * scrolls over comments and likes and then refreshes the page to scroll again for new comments *
I think the oak proved the point just fine, but I still want to see the tatami mats because I just want to see it.
"Body cleaved in twain"!😃😂
A cut is a cut, it doesn't matter how you got it, it hurts like hell. Everyone has cut themselves with a sheet of paper before, right?
Trust me a flick cut is enough, my right index finger tendons were severed, I now can't use my right index finger, this was caused by a tiny little cut in the perfect place between my knuckle bones. This cut was so tiny from a folding knife, don't under estimate a perfectly placed cut, the human body is fragile compared to steel.
That's why in my system (non-HEMA), I have 3 classes of cuts:
short cuts that are launched in front of the body like what you did with flick cuts;
combat cuts, shoulder or elbow powered cuts that stop after cutting through;
finishing cuts, head / hip or / and leg powered without the blade coming to a stop after the cut.
I also have 3 classes of powering sources:
A-Head to foot;
B-shoulder and elbow;
C-wrist and fingers.
So some short cuts can be done with C only, while some can be launched by C and then followed through with B in motion, and some can be followed through with body. So the short cuts can be C, CB or CBA in motion sequence.
Finishing cuts, on the other hand, are always ABC in motion sequence. Combat cuts are often BC.
I train my guys to do isolated power sources, such as cuts only with A, cuts only with B, cuts only with C, as well as changing motion sequence on the fly going with CBA in the first strike but then switch to ABC in the following strike. As the result, the reach, power and tempo are not predictable from each strike since they can come from different sources, and through different mechanisms.
Water bottles are one thing, but you should get Human volunteers from your negative commenters .
After watching your demo of how devastating those flick cuts are i would defo make my self an expert at those strikes your expending less energy as well Its like a pro boxer v a street brawler when you see an opening you strike it then jump away
Snap cutting would probably not be very useful against a gambeson or thick fabric
Cutting into cloth screws up cuts quite easily.
First word that comes to mind: torque.
Please demonstrate and thank you!
It cannot be stressed enough how pain impacts your ability to react. All lacerations are painful. A lacerated ear is extremely painful (I have had one). Even minor, non fatal, wounds can be very problematic. A slice across the forehead, that does not even reach bone, can blind you with blood coming into your eyes. A minor hand wound on the dominant hand can make you combat ineffective. A strike to the knee, or foot, can drastically impede your performance, even if the skin is not broken.
It also cannot be stressed enough how adrenaline affects different people’s perception of pain. Injuries that incapacitate one person, another may not even realize happened.
@Specter_1125
100% This are plenty of cases where people, not on drugs, have been cut or stabbed and kept going. Hell, Matt has accounts of people getting shot repeatedly and still fighting. Humans' ability to ignore injuries should not be ignored.
@@bentrieschmann Hell, my first time in skirminsh in the SCA a decade, I remember hearing a tump on my helmet (something you supposed to act as a killing blow in my SCA rules), I thought it was the wind....... It took getting baseball bated in the kidneys for me to acknowledged I had been struck.
Peoples bodies are simultaneously weaker and more resilient than people think. Will a flick cut to the thigh or non weapon shoulder end a given fight? Then and there, probably not. But it does slow them down, or force them to try to even things out. It might even give you an opportunity to escape, or your buddies a chance to end the fight for you.
It's simultaneously way harder to kill someone than people think and way easier to disable someone than people think
Yee might say "A cut is a cut!", but I dare say "Severed tendons are severed tendons." snip snap
And blood in the eye is blood in the eye!
The thing is several small cuts can deablate someone because of blood loss.
An injury is an injury; it'll flow red either way
it's like when you play smash bros. you don't use big smash attacks untill you have your opponent at a higher percentage.
Yep. And you may not even need to throw a big smash attack to score a KO depending on which character you're using, your skill, and where you are on the stage (e.g. Marth Ken-comboing someone off the stage and then tipper-spiking someone downward or Fox's infamous combos into shine-spike). Of course having big moves with big kill potential is nice and the main strategy for some characters (e.g. DK or Ike), but what's also interesting is that very often the heavy-hitters in a lot of fighting games including Smash are usually popular among newbies, but at higher skill levels in tournaments they tend to drop into lower tiers in tier lists which is probably because the skill level among players at tournaments is much higher which means a larger player base that can pull off the more complex sort of tech for KOs that don't require big smash attacks.
A flick cut could easily kill if you catch a blood vessel or disabling if it catches tendons
Flick cuts can take off limbs of & certainly delicate parts like wrists, hands & fingers.
Push & draw cuts is were a court sword & tuck which historically both have been called rapiers.
Rapier originally French means rasp or grater which such swords are dangerous without the wicked point for a thrust even considered.
You do need to be bit callous or even sadistic to rasp flesh off a man which is likely why in the 17th to the19th century sabres became popular though inferior as they are certainly more honourable & les gruesome.
Pirates & thieves often had no qualms using rapiers in time though originally used by nobility from a harsher time in the 15th & 16th century.
Perspectives for types arms & armour do change considerably basis on usually fanciful notions in societies of the era.
Mind as much as I like a rapier I find shorter hacking blades that double as a tool like a Kopis, Kukri or hanger to be far more useful for confined spaces & general use.
A blade spends 99% of it's time in sheath it is not tool making it effectively dead useless weight.
All is preference at the end of the day mind.