How Accurate is Stone Edge ACTUALLY?! | Slowbro Science
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- Stone Edge is a powerful rock type Pokemon move with 100 base power and 80 accuracy! At least, that's what GameFreak wants you to think! How accurate is Stone Edge ACTUALLY?! Join Slowbro Sensei and head to the RUclips Comment Institute Labs to research THE TRUTH!
Let's! Edging!
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Like and subscribe or else write a 5 paragraph essay!!
And don't you DARE cite Wiki Berry, not a valid source!
Wiki Berry lmao that's fucking Ghold....
if i do one but not the other, do i have to write a 2.5 paragraph essay
The answer is 100% until you NEED stone edge to hit, in which case it becomes 0%.
this is a PITFALL
Misclick stone edge to finish something off, when your 100% accurate move would have done it?
Say no more, Stone Edge has your back.
Need to land exactly this stone edge or else your pokemon faints and you get swept?
Stone Edge gonna peace out
...You know what this makes me think of? How they "fixed" the gen 1 miss glitch in Pokemon stadium. They didn't actually patch the glitch, they just run the accuracy check again if it misses (but only once, so if you gen 1 miss twice in a row you've still missed)
GameFreak's finest coding...
So they created a way to detect if a 1/256 glitch was going to occur, and instead of just making the move hit if it occurred, just ran the calculation again for some reason.
@@randomsnapperson8008 Maybe what they mean is that if it fails it re-rolls regardless of whether it was because of 1/256 or normal miss?
@@hylus5d10I mean this is essentially a fix. 1/256 is less than 0.5% chance, rounded heavily. The actual chance of this happening twice in a row is infinitesimally small, with a decimal representation of 0.00001526. If you get a 1/256 in Stadium, you’re insanely unlucky.
wasnt it an (1/256)^2 check for 100% moves only and if both hit it you out?
The thumbnail is positively unhinged.
I love it, captures the reality of being a lab man perfectly
I spent a YEAR edging!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2?
Paragraph 3!
Paragraph 4...
Paragraph 5.
Won't accept CHEATING the system
You better hope your thumbnail wins the test, or else
@@ImportedCheese Your only stipulation was not citing Wiki Berry. There were no length prerequisites.
It's the teacher that cheats!!!
Honestly we just need an 80 base power move that is 100 percent accurate rock move that's not a signature move.
i'd take that
Rock terablast
@@marcoasturias8520 Yes, the mechanic that's going to be gone the very next generation.
Just buff rock slide
We kind of do...Power Gem....
The dumbest part is? Power Gem and Ancient Power, two of the three SPECIAL rock moves have 100 accuracy. And the other special rock move, Meteor Beam, still has 90 accuracy at 120 BP.
Rock, the famously specially inclined type.............
i think the accuracy design in pokemon is very intentional, like to give each type a special flair. like initially they just didn't want to give every type a 100/100 move or something. and then after the phys/spec split they knew they'd have to give up the methodology, so they just made weak fully accurate special rock moves and stealth rock as a way to cling to that original vision without compromising it for their physical rock types with high physical attack stats. too bad they compromised competitive as a result ;~;. can you imagine how much funnier it would be if it was stealth bug
@@stllr_ Except... all the Special types are just carbon copies of themselves. Tbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam are all the same power and accuracy. Grass and Water are weirdos in Gen 1, but Grass has Razor Leaf (which basically always crits for the Grass types who can use it there) and Water has Surf, Psychic gets, well, Psychic and all of these are at 100 accuracy.
Physical is the one that has to deal with this ridiculousness. Rock has always had bad accuracy, Poison, Fighting, and Bug got almost no moves in Gen 1 leaving Flying, Normal and Ground to get, at least an ok, sampling of moves. Flying has Drill Peck, Normal has Body Slam and Ground gets Earth Quake. Rock has Rock Slide, but its got 2 freaking moves so that almost feels like a fluke.
Cheese just wanted to teach us about probability and statistics, what a dedicated professor
90% is BASICALLY 100!!!
Question : What does the true hit mechanic in FE tells about us as a society ?
Answer : Roses are red, violets are blue
Gerrick still missed out the blue
..........CUT!!!!!!!
All the yap about 2RN in FE, for Gerik to fumble a displayed 90... classic hahahaha
CUT
@@ImportedCheese Watch out, you might be demonetized for saying that!
For the class homework, 90 Power/90 Accuracy is already on Aqua Tail and people refuse to use that over Waterfall unless what they're using only gets Aqua Tail, so that's not good enough I feel.
What I'd like to see is change Rock Slide to become Waterfall with 80/100 and a flinch chance and then change Stone Edge into Crabhammer, Crabhammer is 100/90 with the high crit rate so there's precedent for it already.
Or just make it 100/100 with high crit rate, Earthquake has had it too good for far too long while Rock has suffered for 9 Generations!
But Crabhammer is a signature move, it's allowed to be better
How accurate is Stone Edge?
When it matters? NO. When it doesn't? Yesn't. And randomly, especially when it is the most meaningless moment possible? YES.
Gotta crit that Level 3 Caterpie until its very soul dies from impact. Good job, Stone Edge.
Accurate alternatives pls
@@ImportedCheese
Doctor Doom once said "Rocks to the end, baby!"
Apparently he isn't a Pocket Monster Enthusiast.
Now, HEAD SMASH is a move I can get behind all day.
oh boy I love stone edging!
Let's! Edging!
For EdgeQuake being so good offensively its a shame how every Rock/Ground type is super slow. We need a Weavile with that type combination
Sand rush Excadrill isn't slow!!! It's also uh....not a rock type, but steel is better anyway lmao
Was just thinking that a couple of days ago.
hear me out... dragon dance onix
Rock/Ground is like pure Ice in that it makes for fantastic offense-oriented Pokemon, but GF keeps trying to make them work as tanks.
If they made a Pokemon with the movepool and typing of Rhyperior and the stats of Weavile it would be great.
We also need a fast ice/fighting type, would be amazing.
My submission: Power, Accuracy, and OHKO Moves
To unravel the question of accuracy for power, we must look at the extreme: one hit knock-out attacks.
Many players consider these moves to have infinite power, since they kill anything they hit. This is a mis(s)conception. In reality, it only has the exact amount of power needed to kill what it hits. Fissure will kill both Ratatta and Mewtwo in one hit, but you clearly get more from using it on Mewtwo.
Thus, to figure out how much power is needed to justify a 30% accurate move, we must see how powerful a pokemon needs to be before players resort to OHKO moves.
Ting-Lu uses fissure, but that is not a true example since it exploits misses with Stomping Tantrum.
The rarity of the move clearly soeaks for the importance of accuracy, but fissure Dondozo could be a clue.
FOUR paragraphs short
Unlike stone edge, cheese never misses with these trailers😤
must be the WIDE LENS
I would trade all of stone edge's accuracy for power. Give me a 180 bp, 0% accurate stone edge.
What? No, I'm totally not a Machamp in disguise, what a ridiculous question.
The true hit mechanic in FE, has since its inception in Fire Emblem The Binding Blade provided players all over the world (mostly Japan) with a more satisfactory experience. The outcome of each combat falls in line with what the observer thinks will happen and thus, they trade the element of surprise for an element of strategic finesse. If one were to bet on a coinflip, knowing the coin is slightly weighted to fall on heads, the best strategy would be to bet on heads. Giving the outcomes more weight creates an environment where people can strategize more predictably, fitting for a riveting strategy game as is Fire Emblem. One has to also consider however, that the game actively lies to you by displaying a hit rate which does not align with the actual outcome of the strategic move. The fact that the majority of people would rather choose to play with this mechanic implemented in their games, rather than without, gives us an intricate view on our society. In this essay, I will propose that the preference to play with the true hit mechanic shows our search for predictability, control and our hatred for negativity bias.
Firstly, the desire for a true hit mechanic shows our societies preference for predictability. The capitalist structure our culture is embedded in needs constants to rely on, to function and to look into the future. We are driven to hate the uncertain, where the practice of gambling for example is shunned by our culture as a life destroying addiction. The systems in place, are unable to keep up with unexpected events, even if arguably capitalism is the system that is easiest to adapt, predictability is a virtue that we are taught to value.
Secondly, preferring the true hit mechanic is a testament to our desire for control. In our life, turbulent as it may be, we cling to the little things we have control over. For example, people sometimes develop eating disorders in their teen years, because of the sense of control it gives, when they lack a say in authoritarian households or school. This example shows just how much it means to some people to feel like they have a say in outcomes, where they are willingly harming their body. In Fire Emblem, we strive for the control to assess situations correctly. It being a strategy game attracts people who want to dabble in their ability to make sound decisions and be rewarded for them. Taking away the control the players desire and handing it over to luck to decide outcomes, is not in line with our society, where effort and skill is seen as more of a virtue than blind luck.
Lastly, that the true hit mechanic skews the results to a more positive outcome for players is creating a feedback loop, where they feel good for making the correct guess more often than not. Given that in Fire Emblem, your strategy revolves around the critical moments where you need an attack to miss, or you need a unit to strike, giving the player the idea that they strategized correctly and overcame the odds with their plan. The negativity bias, excellently explained in the video above, is frowned upon and ought to be avoided. The amount of negative emotion one experiences, when they predict something bad will happen however, is not as stark as wishing for a better outcome. On the contrary, people are able to say “I knew this would happen!” more often and feel smart for guessing correctly.
In conclusion, viewing the true hit mechanic under the lens of what it reveals about society shows us that human beings want to be comfortable. They hate to have things outside of their control and they want to be able to estimate situations in a predictable way. This idea, choosing the mechanic over not showing it, is in a Freudian sense like the pleasure principle overcoming the reality principle. We have to keep in mind, that Fire Emblem is a game, meant to be enjoyed, so we can let ourselves indulge in the pleasure, even if we already know that we should assess the world in a way that genuinely reflects matters such as probability.
Amazing essay !
A+
Star Student!! 5 stars, one for each paragraph!!!
It’s 50/50. Either it hits or it doesn’t.
the SCIENCE might disagree
"if its not 100% accurate its 50% accurate"- guy named mickey
I would say that at this point we should have atleast a 80-90 base power 100% accurate move for each type. Physical and Special both.
noooooooooooooooooooooo that wouldn't be in keeping with TRADITION
Stone edge is the only edging allowed in the YTC
We live on the EDGE
should've been a focus blast video...
Oh don't worry, we ran a focus group
11:48 wait why does the Russian dub of Mr Beast sound so good? 😂
I promise I love the rest of the video too but I think this moment is what will stick with me
I swear it kept downloading in Russian no matter how many times I grabbed the English video, so I just gave up and left it in
I think the real problem with stone edge and focus blast is there is no 100% accurate alternative that is available. If you want to use a viable physical rock-type move, you either have stone edge with an 80% accuracy or rock slide with a 90% accuracy, both of which have the chance to miss. Focus blast is even worse because even though aura sphere is viable, it is not given to many of the pokemon that would want to use it and they are therefore stuck with 70% accurate focus blast.
Having a perfect accuracy but lower powered move gives players the choice to trade accuracy for power, which gives players a sense of responsibility for the accuracy. If a miss occurs after the player has made the decision to use a less accurate move, the player knows the miss was somewhat on them, as they could have gone with the more accurate but less powerful move. But Game Freak for some reason refuses to give these alternatives which only results in salt (cure) when a lower accurate move misses.
TL;DR
Game Freak should make a 80+ base power, 100% physical rock type move and increase the distribution of aura sphere.
-Arf arf
at least focus blast has 120 base power instead of 100
I never understood stone miss ive seen Focus miss because people run it on Alakazam and miss rhe crucial attack
More pokemon have to use stone edge so it's probably why it's more infamous
Love the style of this channel. Super cool. Tons of effort put in to the little things as well, like calling Wiki Berry “The Free Pokédex”. Awesome work!
Thank you! You can even search wiki berry!!!
Don't uh, don't look at the URL that I forgot to change
At least it’s not as bad as Gen 1 Rock Throw.
50 BP
65% Accuracy
No secondary effects.
Who thought that was a good idea?
At least they did buff it....and gen 1 did have rock slide
Love how the experience caused the class to evolve.
I will just pretend Slowking is in this video because Slowbro sensei is on an important business trip.
Substitute teacher!!!
My favorite video since your Nemona superboss video! I love it when you let your hair down and be goofy. Well done!
Not sure what my hair was doing...this shelder is OUT OF CONTROL
17:36 I remember the absolute hate Aqua Tail got on the moves tier list you did back then, but I guess it's because you actually have water moves with perfect accuracy
Maybe I don't mind Aqua Tail because I like Rhyperior...
It’s difficult to say it loudly, but Imported Cheese is my favourite Pokémon Channel 😂
I knew everything in this video, but I was still very entertained, the power of editing and cheesy puns.
You should rewatch it to find something you didn't know OR ELSE
When getting into competitive Pokémon back in the day my friend once told me, “if it’s not 100% accurate it might as well be 50%”
very ORIGINAL and non PLAGIARIZED comment
You know the price
Here's my scientific take:
0% success rate when I need it to hit RIGHT THIS MOMENT
100% success rate when I need to avoid it THIS TURN
those are the only EDGE cases you remember!!!
100% means 100%.
90% means 80%.
80% means 50%.
70% means 20%.
XCOM players know this.
Mandatory permadeath......no casuals allowed!
Xcom uses the rare and elusive 0.5 RN
Man, the thumbnail is really good for this one! I especially like how it was designed to catch the eye. You should make more thumbnails like this in the future!
Implying my other thumbnails are bad!!!!
You'll regret this!!
The uses between a stone edge and a theoretical 90/90 rock move would depend on the damage rolls against the user's specific counters
I think no one would ever edge with a 90/90 alternative
Finally he hit with this video
Spent a year missing...
I wasn’t sure what I was getting into when the video began, but I’m glad I stuck around! I enjoyed it thoroughly.
only 20% chance to be disappointed!
Do you want to know the worst part? It IS actually less than 80% accurate. Not as a whole, but if you take any single fight, the proportion of Stone Edge hitting will be on average lower than 80%. That is because if a Stone Edge misses, your Pokémon will most likely faint immediately after, while if it does not miss, your Pokémon is free to keep using the move until it does. That means that the fights where the Stone Edges are more accurate concentrate more Stone Edges, while the misses occupy a full fight by themselves and thus are more important. For example, let's take an extreme example of a Terrakion that spams Stone Edge. If it misses one, it immediately faints, but otherwise can keep using all 8 PPs.
It has a 20% chance of being 0% accurate (one SE, one miss).
16% chance of being 50% accurate (80% success for the first SE, then 20% to miss the second)
12.8% chance to be 33% accurate, etc until the ~4.2% to succeed at 7 SE and miss the last one, and then 16.8% to have a 100% accuracy on 8 Stone Edges. If you add these probabilities, you find an average success rate on the match of 61.17%, MUCH less than advertised. Of course, this number only applies in this extreme scenario, and it is bigger if your Pokémon does not immediately faint, or if you would not have been able to use all SE anyway (for example, if even with perfect luck you would only have used 4 Stone Edges, then the number becomes 65%, and 72% if you were only using 2, but it crucially is never 80%, unless you were only using one SE anyway.
For those interested, the same calculations for Focus Blast gives an abysmal 48.9% if you were trying to use all 8 PPs, or 52% if you were trying to use 4, or 59.5% if you were trying to use 2. Truly worthy of the title of Focus Miss.
Is this from one of the other accuracy videos?!
@@ImportedCheese I don't think it is‚ I just thought about it and made the calculations. FSG's video in essence just says "well‚ it's inaccurate but there's no alternative‚ so it feels bad"‚ and I haven't watched the others.
0:51 OH I KNOW I KNOW! It's a "defensive" type that has 5 weaknesses, 4 of which are to incredibly common and competitively popular types. Many have argued the worst type to be bug or ice, but st least they get moves! What does rock get? 75 power 90 accuracy rock slide? Surely there's some added effect to redeem this move right? Oh...it's just a flinch chance...well what about stone edge? 100 power is pretty good...in the 30% of cases when it hits... So yeah, I'm comfortable saying rock is by far the worst typw, even bug and ice have bug buzz x-scozzir ice beam ice punch etc.
At least rock types have uh...good physical defense on average....?
The best thing ever is spending nearly 0 time on RUclips for a month and watching all the videos you've produced in this time frame. I absolutely love your videos and the effort you put into them is really insane. Keep it up dude!
Thanks for watching! Next fully edited video in hopefully less than a month
this video ROCKS! the editing was as sharp as a STONE and kept me on the EDGE of my seat.
Only took 1 year for this PREMIUM viewing experience!
For a damage dealing move to have 80% accuracy, I feel it should have at least 110 base power. Fire blast has 110 bp and 85 accuracy, both stronger and more accurate. Stone edge has 5 pp, so it also seems like it is meant to be a powerful move. At least it isn’t like iron tail with 75% accuracy for 100 bp…
True!! 100 bp does seem low, but it has high crit, that must be worth it! Ignore that they nerfed crits in gen 6 pls
These videos are a cool concept and if they go well I'd like to see more of them.
Doing well so far....SHARE for another episode!!!! Eventually
Inaccuracy balances the damage and you can see a moves true strength 100*.8 (80% accuracy)=80 has a true power of 80. A 90 power 90% would=81, meaning that move is stronger. There are some moves that are equally balanced. Springtide storm and dazzling gleam are equal 100*.8=80*1.00
In the average these moves similar power. Lower accuracy higher power moves are just you betting you get more of that expected power earlier before you start to miss.
Although you use fire blast over flamethrower because you always need 2 flamethrowers to KO, but you only need 1 fire blast to hit. Only 15% of the time do you need 2 turns with fire blast, where 100% of the time you need 2 turns when using flamethrower
but where is the 100% option
Please don’t ever show me James Somerton again!!
Also, I think 90/90 is pretty respectable. I’d take that.
Why write videos when you can just read wikipedia?! So efficient!
@@ImportedCheesealso I did my homework and I think that 90/90 is a pretty great trade!!
Stone Edge is the most hated move in the game?
Focus Blast: am i a joke to you?
at least it's a bunch of special attacking nerds using focus blast for coverage, stone edge is the best STAB option for most rock types....
How much power are you willing to sacrifice for accuracy? That's a hard question that mostly depends on the available options. But let's compare some Power/Accuracy tradeoffs from some bases. Where the base is always the alternative for all the following values and assuming the Pokemon has a good enough attack stat (Let's say roughly a ~110 atk/spatk?):
For: 50/100 -> Anything stronger/more accurate than 60/80
For: 60/100 -> 70/95 -> 90/90 -> 110/85 -> 130/80 and never lower
For: 75/100 -> 80/95 -> 100/90 -> 120/85 -> 160/80 and never lower
For: 80/100 -> 85/95 -> 110/90 -> 140/85 -> 200/80 and never lower
For: 90/100 -> 95/95 -> 120/90 -> 160/85 -> 220/80 and never lower
For: 100/100 -> 120/95 -> 150/90 -> 200/85 -> 250/80 and never lower
For: 120/100 -> 140/95 -> 180/90 -> 250/85 -> 350/80 and never lower
For: 140/100 -> 160/95 -> 200/90 -> 300/85 and never lower
For: 160/100 -> 200/95 -> 300/90 and never lower
For: 200/100 -> 250/95 and never lower
For: 250/100 no stronger alternative taken
So for example, I would take a 110/90 move over a 80/100 move, but not a 105/90 move over a 80/100. Also, some of those 95 and 85 accuracy moves may a little change depending on the day or comparison. But mostly an accurate description.
Therefore from my personal opinion, I would happily sacrifice 5 accuracy in most cases for a little bit of power. For 20 less accuracy the move needs to be at least twice as strong (preferably more) than a perfectly accurate move. And 10 less accuracy means roughly 30 points of base power, which grow bigger the better the alternative becomes. Also, I don't care how strong you are, a 75 accuracy will always fail me when I need it, talking from experience. Lastly from 250/100 I would never take an inaccurate move over it, even 5 accuracy, because that much base power should be more than enough for everything.
One more thing, from these baseline decent attack pokemon, I would be willing to sacrifice more accuracy for power the weaker the pokemon is, and less accuracy for power the stronger the pokemon is. So for example a pokemon with 50 attack needs all the gambles and help it can get, while a pokemon with 200 attack should kill you even with Bulldoze.
Fifth paragraph lmao (Assuming the numbers don't count as one). Please Pokemon implement 2RN.
ANEMIC 5th paragraph but I agree so I'll let it slide
I'm already subbed and I was already loving it, but I scrolled down so fast to click that like button when James Somerton jumpscare. Now that's quality content.
Ah yes negativity bias, the same reason everyone swears Pokemon Stadium and the various battle facilities have RNG rigged against you, remembering all the times bad luck caused them to lose and have to restart all over, but never the times when they only won because they got a lucky crit or status proc.
Well it's SKILL when I do it
The real question is why the GSC Johto starters are learning about a move that won't exist for another 7 years. Can't believe I missed this when it came out, love the video and Slowbro Sensei!
Those numbers are why I have trust issues in Pokemon. It always feels like I miss way too many Hydro Pumps, so I go for the weaker but more reliable Surf. And a reminder that Hydro Pump is 110 base power and 80. On the flip side, I feel that Thunder hits fairly often in the older games, even though it only has 70 accuracy, so I don't mind running it or Thunderbolt. These are the exact same accuracies as Stone Miss and Focus Miss, but they're from Gen 1. The only difference is that every mon that can learn Hydro Pump or Thunder can learn Surf or Thunderbolt, respectively, so there isn't as much debate about which should be used. The biggest issues with Stone Miss and Focus Miss is that they don't have weaker, more accurate versions that are just as available to those that learn them. And I feel they will keep it this way. Rock and Fighting have very useful offensive profiles, and keeping them inaccurate when splashed (bad move btw) reduces the viability of those that rely on them for coverage.
But hydro pump doesn't have high crit!!!! Surely that's worth 10 bp
Cheese actually used edge browser just to make one joke😂
Well firefox would be weak to stone edge
I rather have 100% accurate moves than stronger ones myself, tbh. And for everyone to be forced to use said 100% accurate but 'weaker' moves so that overall advantage is symmetrical and not 'swingy' . So many times I've lost because of being forced to use an Inaccurate Move and it failing has burned itself into my hate riddled heart, and if I could snap such things out of existence I would. On a similar topic I'd also axe Crits if it didn't lead to the rise of Crit Me Not Strats, just to eliminate more swingy randomness from the game.
I'd remove crits, too
@@ImportedCheese We'd need more defense ignoring moves because I would hate dealing with crit me not strats when everyone has shell armor
If there was an 80 base damage, 100% accurate rock move, people would prefer it to Stone Edge but use Stone Edge anyway because the damage calculator says it loses out on OHKO and 2HKO thresholds on important matchups. There is no winning. But at least it would be nice to have. I already use Rock Slide over Stone Edge in ingame playthroughs, which is trading away way more damage for 90 accuracy than your example of 90 damage, and I still refuse to use Smack Down because it deals the same pitiful 50 base damage as HM01.
But you can combo smack down with earthquake! Think of the utility!!
I just think it's freakin' arbitrary and dumb that Rock is the only attacking type that has this weird theme of no 100 accurate moves. Really just kind of invalidates alot of counterplay, and prevents people from seeing that Rock is a great Attacking type.
Like, I would expect a type with poor defensive profiling to at least make up for it with reliable offense.
at least stealth rock is unavoidable!!!
Zap cannon-Blunder ploicy-Stomping tantrum
You either win or you win,
Sleeper meta strategy for sure
Instead of dropping 10 power for accuracy on Stone Edge I would rather give up 10 accuracy for even more power. Ideally I'd push this until we hit 130 Power 50% accuracy, but at that point there should just be a different move, maybe without so many No Guard Pokemon learning it.
80% accuracy 120 bp?!
Law of large numbers?! The power of many!!
The power of ONE....the power of TWO....the power of THREE....the power of...
@@ImportedCheese it's 3:30am where im at and this reply cracked me the fuck up. great video, your comment replies are underrated and overhated.
A year of editing worth it, great video :D
You'll never believe that there were technical issues delaying the video
Fire Emblem video disguised as a Pokemon one. 👌👌👌
I will slowly free myself from the Pokemon Prison by sneaking in premium FIRE EMBLEM gameplay
All these videos on Focus Blast missing yet I haven't had my opponent's Focus Blast miss in 91 years...
Edit: I'm gonna sound like a shrimp but I rarely trade power for accuracy. It is very annoying having certain things, like physical Dragon types, generally have Outrage Or Nothing if you want a confirmed hit, but what can you do?
At least Outrage is a good move....imagine having to use Dragon Rush lmao
Imagine Stone Edge is a trapping move instead of a high crit.
It would still have to hit though
This is also the reason why Fates is peak SRPG. Not only they go back to one RNG system. They actually give player away to guarantee the hit rate with support bonus and heartseeker/certain blow.
well at least conquest exists
Almost every pokemon player had the missfortune of missing a important move on a crucial moment, cascading into a loss and making them wonder "what if I hit that stone edge?". This problem isnt exclusive to only the most dedicated professional players, but for anyone that plays pokemon, be competitively, casually, a nuzlocker etc. Alas, a game should be fun and missing isnt that enjoyable, especially when the consequences are dire. This video compares debates about the accuracy of moves like stone edge and focus blast, and our skewed expectations on accuracy and probability, how we remember the 20% it hindered us way more than the 80% when we hit, or even the 20% when the opponent misses it, causing you to win.
After a while, Brian Fox Suzuki (know as their internet persona ImportedCheese) talked about another game franchise that has a accuracy mechanic called "Fire Emblem" and its "True Hit system" (also known as 2RN), wich in a simplified explanation, makes so that attacks have a different accuracy than whats displayed in game, making so that moves with a high % hit chance hit more (e.g a 70% move acts more like a 80% and a 90% more like a 98%) and the inverse for low hit % moves. This manipulation tends to allign more with the player's skewed expectations of accuracy and leads to a overall better experience. At the end, it ponders to if pokemon should adopt that system or if it should remain as is. As shown in 15:39 , people seem to prefer that system, so why not right?
The 2RN system should not be implemented onto pokemon. In fire emblem, most regular enemies you will face will have a low hit % on their attacks while the player's units will have a higher hit %, making so the enemy will miss alot more than they should and the player will most likely plow them on confrontations. In pokemon, that doesnt apply. The moves you and your opponent will use are from the same limited move pool, and most moves that arent 100% accurate are close to it. So that means that not only the player will benefit, the opposition will as well so although you are hitting more, you are getting hit more as well. Furthermore, annoying mechanics like evasion or accuracy drops will be more punishing in this new system, making those strategies even more hated than they are already.
But you might say that it isnt a big deal since it applies to you as well, so the status quo would not change much. You may be right, however there is another con that the 2RN system brings. Fire Emblem is a single player franchise, while in pokemon the multiplayer component is a big factor, and for many the main reason they play pokemon at all. Using the 2RN system, wich would already be a obscured component on games that are known for having a big ammount of hidden information like IVs and EVs, would be another mechanic to remember, it would make for more frustration on competitive players when they innevitabily get that miss, no matter how unlikely it is. Hitting 3 stone edges and missing the 4th isnt a unnexpected outcome and they should have been aware of the risk. By making the innacurate moves more accurate it would make for those misses to sting alot more. Missing constantly is less frustrating than Missing on a rare ocasion.
I hope this has convinced you about how 2RN on pokemon would not be beneficial. If it didnt then... idk read it again until you get convinced idk like and subscribe to Brian and also me
DOXXED as Brian Fox Suzuki....now everyone knows....
For class discussion, I'd say that I'd be willing to bring a rock move down to, I'd say 80 or 85 power in exchange for 100% accuracy and no drawback and hey, look at that! Power Gem exists. Straightforward move with reasonable effects and no drawback. If there were more rock type special attackers then it'd be pretty good. However I think the thing with stone edge is that there's this weird thing in pokemon where oftentimes special moves trade off accuracy for power over 100 (thunder, hydro pump, fire blast etc.). Whereas physical moves more often take on a negative secondary effect to make up for the power, like recoil (flare blitz, wood hammer, double edge) or locking you into the move (thrash, outrage etc.)
of course there are exceptions, but this generally means that you can run a physical mon, like Darmanitan, with a moveset of: flare blitz, EQ, U-turn and stone edge. Now you've got a pokemon where 3 out of your 4 moves are guaranteed to hit (not counting evasion strats), and one that isn't. Even if stone edge might do a little more damage, you're probably more inclined just to click flare blitz for that guaranteed hit and damage, especially if you're scarfed or banded, since being locked into an 'unreliable' move is not an appealing prospect in a competitive format that can come down to as fine a margin as pokemon often does.
I think this reflects the fact that as a society, we have been conditioned to fear failure. In a capitalist system where one needs to make money to survive, especially if one has dependents, it becomes difficult to pursue a career that isn't reliable. Even if a job in a creative field, for example, would be far more fulfilling for someone to pursue, they might be pushed towards something more stable like accounting or engineering. This essentially means that forgoing stone edge, and its risks could be viewed as symbolic of giving up on one's dreams and hopes for their future.
It could also be viewed as a general symptom of societal cynicism, you spoke of confirmation bias and I'd say this promotes an attitude in people that to hope for the best is naïve or foolish. For a cynical individual is never let down, because they expected the worst possible outcome to begin with, whereas an optimist must be exposed to constant disappointment. So over time many people stop hoping for the best and start preparing for an inevitable tragedy since it's easier to not raise one's hopes so that they never get dashed. Even if 80% of the time that stone edge will hit, that 20% is just too painful to stomach. Like that constant 3-8% crit rate on Arthur in Fe Conquest.
In conclusion, yeah, stone edge should probably have better accuracy. We already have EQ, CQ, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and other more powerful, more accurate moves. I don't think that stone edge being raised to 100% will break the game, even if it does have to take a power cut. But in the meantime, don't give up on your dreams, good ladies and non ladies of the YTC institute, because the only path with a 100% lose rate is quitting.
5 paragraphs VERIFIED, well done
Homework Take
So if the problem is missing, 90 accuracy 90 power stone edge would replace rock slide as the go-to rock move but still doesn't solve the problem of rock type having very few, if any, viable moves with perfect accuracy. It would definitely make Stone Edge better than 100bp/80%acc . Rock type play rough and that move is everywhere. Rockslide could easily be 75BP, 95-100%Acc
But rock slide is spread! Would still be great in doubles!
@@ImportedCheese Oh yes for sure in doubles. A bit narrow-minded of me, but I really only considered and answered your question in terms of singles. But yeah hitting both targets with a flinch chance, even at 90 accuracy, is a very nice niche
The Truth of True Hit: How Power, Bias, and Economics Shape Society’s Stance on Fire Emblem Mechanics
Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, released in Japan in 2002 on the Game Boy Advance, implemented a system for determining the chance a unit’s attack would miss that differed from its predecessors. Previously, the series’ games stated exactly the percent chance a character in the game, called a unit, would land a hit on an opponent. Binding Blade replaced this simpler system with the somewhat erroneously named True Hit, which slightly altered the true chance of a miss to be more extreme - the further the displayed number was from 50%, the more the actual chance differed from it. Numbers higher than 50 would have increased hit chance, and lower numbers decreased chance. Despite the game’s lack of honesty about its true odds, generally players prefer the True Hit system to its more traditional counterpart. Though the explanation for this unintuitive preference is often prescribed to negativity bias, the more pressing question is this: what does this trend tell us about society at large? This work outlines three possible societal trends the True Hit system illuminates: people enjoy a fantasy of power and overcoming adversity, find comfort in a sense of control over outcomes, and desire experiences that continually reward them when they have limited time and capital to dedicate to playing games.
Sometimes touted as the primary motivation for playing video games, power is undeniably a core tenet of the medium. Many games give the player the chance to play out a fantasy of strength, and often violence. This is just as true of the Fire Emblem games as any: attractive characters inspired by Japanese anime swinging giant swords, axes, or other medieval weaponry is a powerful fantasy in multiple ways. Unfortunately, nothing makes a player feel weaker than swinging their giant magical sword at an attacker, only for it to whiff completely. Far beyond the impact of simple resistance, which would theoretically cut damage down to a fraction of its usual heights, a miss completely negates damage altogether, shattering the illusion of power the games grants the player. Of course, in reality even the strongest, most talented people in their respective skills sometimes make mistakes, but games offer a fantasy of perfect, undefeatable power. The player will always eventually beat all of the enemies, and complete the game- there is no real chance for permanent, all-encompassing failure (though the Fire Emblem series does feature the permanent death of individual characters). One may expect the game designer’s solution to this shattering of fantasy to be to remove miss chance entirely- every attack is guaranteed to hit. However, an important aspect of a video game power fantasy is also a strong opposition, which makes the power feel meaningful, as though it has conquered a massive challenge. This conception of strength as overcoming adversity has its roots in ancient storytelling, at the heart of the hero’s journey. Without an enemy to triumph against, the power becomes meaningless. This is why it is important that there is always a chance to miss in the True Hit system- this is one form of adversity the player is overcoming. If the player believes they have a 10% chance to fail their attack, each repeated success cements into their mind their strength in success that much further- even if the truth is that they only have a 2% chance to miss. People enjoy the way True Hit overinflates their chance of success, while still giving them a perceived challenge to overcome, suggesting that this desire to powerfully triumph against all odds is a core aspect of human nature.
However, power cannot be the whole story. After all, True Hit does not simply increase accuracy for all attacks- those below 50% have less chance than expected to land their hits. How do we explain players’ enjoyment of this other side of the coin? The answer lies in control. Many video games focus on deeply responsive control from the player. As an example, a platformer game is usually more positively received when the player character’s controls are tight, highly responsive, and predictable. This is to give the human player as much specific control over their avatar as possible. Without strong control, outcomes such as missing a jump feel more frustrating, and lead to frustration and blaming the game, diminishing the overall experience. In a strategy RPG such as Fire Emblem, player control is less about movement and more about decision-making: ensuring that the right units are sent to the right destination at the right time. However, these games also include unavoidable elements of randomness that can easily cause frustration akin to the aforementioned missed jump. This is another upside to the True Hit system for many players: because outcomes are more extreme than they appear to be, both positively and negatively, the player feels more in control of the randomness because it confirms their biases about an attack’s success rate. A move with 90% accuracy seems to be very unlikely to miss, and in truth it is even more unlikely than the player realizes. This confirms a player’s bias about the attack, and perhaps rewards their tactical decision to use the unit in a situation where they can’t afford to lose. Likewise, a 30% chance to hit feels like a very low number, and the reality is that the failure chance is even higher than it seems- meaning players are confirmed in their previous decisions to keep those units away from combat when an enemy sneaks up and strikes them by surprise. Both situations reinforce the idea that the player has control over the results of every engagement, both positive and negative. Thus, we can surmise that people desire control over outcomes, and their biases about their decisions confirmed.
Video games are, above all else, leisure and entertainment. While a few have found financial success in streaming, competitive gaming, and making in-depth analysis videos about games made for children, the vast majority of people can only play video games in their free time. Unfortunately, free time is a commodity difficult to come by in modern society. Due to the rise of unchecked, late-stage free market capitalism, the owners and shareholders at the very top of corporate ladders possess are greater and greater share of the total wealth of society. Costs of living skyrocket while many minimum wages have not increased since the 1980’s. And due to societal pressures around gender, sexuality, and aging, many people have to work astronomical hours to support entire families, pressured into settling down and having children at ages before they are truly ready and able to support them. There are two primary costs of these societal challenges: money, of course necessary to survive and often in short supply, especially for anyone who grew up in poverty; and time, as many people cannot afford to do anything with their days besides working themselves to the bone and subsequently going to bed exhausted. Returning our attention to video games, we unfortunately see that they cost the same two commodities: money- video games are an infamously expensive hobby, between buying consoles, games, and $30 DLC- and time- most games considered worth playing last at the very least 10-15 hours, and many far exceed these numbers. Fire Emblem games are commonly played today on emulators, which of course do not require purchasing a console or game, but they do require a computer, a luxury many cannot afford, especially when smartphones do many of a computer’s jobs on the go. And Fire Emblem games are undeniably long- The Binding Blade, for example, is estimated to take over 25 hours to complete its main story, and over 40 hours to complete all objectives. Thus, a gamer playing Fire Emblem: Binding Blade has necessarily spent time and money to experience it. To finally bring this back to the True Hit system, when a player’s unit misses an attack against an enemy, they are pragmatically wasting both the player’s time and their money. Each miss adds onto the playtime of a game by a marginal amount- but that amount is magnified over the course of a playthrough. A miss that causes a full loss is even worse. This can increase frustration as the player may feel like each miss wastes valuable time before they have to go to work again. And this increases the perceived monetary cost too- if a player has spent a significant amount of money to play a game, they want that money to feel worth it, for the experience to be satisfying and rewarding. Otherwise, they may worry that their funds were misplaced, causing even more anxiety. True Hit addresses these concerns, as it makes misses far more rare for units that the player expects to land hits- decreasing the perceived time wasted. Players with limited time will also be encouraged to avoid units with low accuracy, quickly reinforced if a player gives them a shot and immediately whiffs. Thus, the general preference for True Hit reveals the difficult socioeconomic position in which many people find themselves in our current capitalist society.
Each of these takeaways from True Hit’s popularity- that people enjoy a powerful fantasy, that people desire control and confirmation in outcomes, and that many people lack the time and capital to dedicate to leisure- are not separate ideas, but connected concepts that intertwine and relate to each other. A power fantasy requires some aspect of control, and may be desirable in order to escape the difficulties of capitalism. Further research must be done to examine these three disparate ideas, and perhaps reach a singular conclusion about the reason people enjoy an unintuitive mechanic in Fire Emblem games. One thing is for certain, though: True Hit’s popularity illuminates a significant amount about the current state of society.
Society ILLUMINATED at long last
Five paragraphs VERIFIED
My submission:
Stone edge, as per it's name, is boosted by Bisharps signature ability, Sharpness, making it very useful in some edge cases.
Moreover, as we learnt by Aaahnix evolutionary line, rock moves get STAB boosted when used by steel types.
As such, it makes for a great move choice for Kingambit, or if your Steelix has had enough level up points in luck to compliment its amazing attack bases.
In other cases, if you dont want to miss, just use rock throw on a choice band. An accurate alternative with decent BP since generation 1.
There are several other viable strategies non luck reliant for both ingame and competitive, such as toxic + leech seed, and serene grace paraflinching. Or equip a scope lens to boost your accuracy. Pokémon is a perfectly balanced game after all.
The four horsemisses of the apocalypse: Stone Miss, Focus Miss, Hydro Miss, and Missicane
Do people use hydro pump?! At least it has 110 bp
Make it 95 Power no bonus crit chance and 90% accuracy and we've got a deal :3
I think it could keep the crit chance....can't believe they nerfed crits 10 years ago....
After one year of production, The stone edge video is finally released....😊
Edged....
I actively try not to use moves under 90% accuracy. I’ll be to person to miss the 99% move (wide lens & 90acc) when it matters
100% hit Air Slash please....
Can’t believe I predicted the fire emblem segment bc my lizard brain keyed onto the FE sound effects going off earlier in the video lmao
They're so useful!
Stone Edging to this video later..
I stone edged for a whole year!
I think the issue with Stone Edge is an issue of Rock Type offense as a whole. Most other types have access to reliable decent power moves like Flamethrower or Psyshock that won't just randomly fail you. If there were a 90 BP 100 Accuracy Rock move at no cost or costing recoil at most Stone Edge and Rock Slide wouldn't be as much of a problem and the missed hits of Rock Type moves wouldn't sour the experience.
Edit: I should add *accessible* Rock type move because a decent move reserved for a handful of Pokemon like Accelerock doesn't really help.
It's a rocky road...
I would like a stone edge 70 power 100 % with high crit or 80 power 100% without high crit chance. ( maybe some hackmons resource to do test )
I think high crit moves should deal double damage like pre gen 6
0:28 "What is the square root of a horseshoe" is the answer 😂
someone pls run the calcs
True hit is bad because it makes me more annoyed if it doesn't go as expected. If I miss a 98 in thracia I'd probably be less annoyed than missing a 90 in sacred stones
But it almost always DOES go as expected, nice try, Kaga!
You keep dropping your crown, Slowking. Got to really get that Shellder's teeth checked. As always, I appreciate being in the 2% of your audience that likes WC3 references.
HOLY crits
Firstly, Warrior of Darkness mentioned, FFXIV stream when?
Secondly, I actually think a 90% accurate move feels *worse* than an 80% accurate move. It's easier to rationalize an 80 accuracy move missing as "well, I had a 1-in-5 chance to miss!" than a 90 accuracy moves's 1-in-10, because 90% feels a *lot* closer to 100% and our brains are bad at reading the difference.
I'd never miss a 1/10 in this video.....
Can't believe Slowbro Sensei is giving us a discussion post as homework smh
Doesn't look like 5 paragraphs to me!!! Farewell
I always go for Surf instead of Hydro Pump, but I'm also a casual. I'm also willing to pay less power for accuracy the higher the accuracy starts; 90 is my general limit, and then I just accept misses as the risk I took didn't pay off. I only use Zap Cannon on mons with Lock On.
but why lock on?! zap cannoning twice has the same average hit chance!
Sure, but averages only pay out in the long run. With Lock On I spend a turn to make sure this time Zap Cannon hits.
I've been watching grubby's videos lately so that grubby thumbnail edit hit me like a STONE EDGE (it didn't miss) great video boss
I'm subbed for HOLY CRITS
I would have replaced all six items with the rock icon but I didn't want to have to photoshop around the fingers...
My opinion is to do something controversial. So the premise is simple, we give a 100% accurate move to only rock types (aka limit the distribution to a certain type). I will outline this reasoning in a couple ways following this statement.
Why only Rock types? A discussion on what makes Rock types the way they are.
My reasoning behind this is because while other pokemon can have other coverage options other than Rock moves like Stone Edge, Rock type pokemon don't really have an option on account of most Rock types being physical and therefore using Stone Edge or Rock Slide for STAB. Yes, Rock types can use the most accurate special attacking rock moves in Ancient Power, Meteor Beam, and Power Gem, but they are uncommon. Of the 50 fully evolved Rock type pokemon (I did not count megas, which is not too consequential), only 14 of them would consider using a special attack. That is 28% if we are being generous. According to Bulbapedia's average stats on fully evolved Rock type pokemon, the most relevant stats are Attack (~100) and Defense (~107) for their stats. Designwise, Rock types are pokemon meant to be a decent physical attackers meant to take physical hits. Yes, the typing is bad defensively, but that is largely out of the Rock type pokemon's control.
Why accurate Rock moves for them? Opportunity cost and management of a team.
When you pick a Rock type to be on your team, it will likely be because you want the good offensive typing and good defensive stats. Now, going back to the video from before, it is shown that the accuracy from a game per game basis will vary, but you do not want that variance on your physical tank. When your tank takes a hit, and misses back, the value in that tank dramatically decreases because you essentially went net negative and did nothing. It can also be a reason why Rock types are less preferred besides their defensive type. What is the point in choosing Rock type for STAB Stone Edge when you will miss when trying to carry out its duties? Why would I choose a Rock type when I can choose a different type with a STAB physical 100% accurate ground move with no drawbacks? Having rock moves specifically for Rock types will help the reliability of Rock types and their roles in tanking a hit, and hitting back.
Won't this become like Focus Blast where non Rock types have to choose an inaccurate Stone Edge? Differences between Focus Miss and Stone Miss.
It will become similar, but not to the extent of Focus Miss. While many special attackers have no other options than to have Focus Miss for coverage (i.e. Psychic types), physical attackers can easily have coverage other than Stone Edge, so it is not as restricting. Say that a pokemon can have access to Ice Punch and Stone Edge for coverage against Flying type pokemon. Yes, you have the option to use the strong Stone Edge, it is much less consistent when you need it compared to Ice Punch's reliability. There is options that players consider when choosing a move but you are not forced to choose Stone Edge. Physical attackers have a tendency to have a lot more coverage to offset the fact that there are a lot of ways to deal with Physical attackers (high defense, burn, contact related items, etc.). As a result, you are not struggling for options like Focus Miss does.
What is your proposal for a move? My proposal.
My proposal is a 95 power, 100% accurate move, 10 pp (max 16) with no additional effects as a sort of test. It is not too far off from Stone Edge's power so the benefits are marginal between the two and does not strictly outclass Rock Slide's niche. This is meant to give a good, reliable Rock type move for Rock type pokemon over the course of a match. It is not meant to be overpowered, it is meant to be consistent. If there are any suggestions, I would like to hear some ideas.
PURE rock types only, then maybe
A valiant effort, but I only see 4 paragraphs. Farewell
i love imported cheese's corny jokes that use in universe moves or items. also yeah 90/90 for sure would feel much better.
Not corny, CHEESY!
90 base power, 90% accurate stone edge would feel way nicer in my mind! If the move kept its existing high crit rate, it would actually deal more damage on average (because it's hitting more often and, therefore, you'd get to access those critical hits more often). That might even be enough to make the move actually reliable! Keyword being might, but still.
Edit: For the record, this is not the essay, more like the would-be thesis if anything. Just giving my take
Pls buff crits....it's been a decade since the nerf....
Sacred Stones double hit roll is a sham.
I wasted like 3h training my squad in the arena and the last fight my Vanessa got crit to death by a pirate with 1% hit 3% crit chance.
That was like 10 years ago but I remember it as it happened last week
Berserker* not pirate
@@SvenHeidemann-uo2yl well at least 3 crit is 1rn
Trading power for acc:
That is what happened to Meteor mash.
It changed from 100p 80acc to 90 90.
And it was universally seen as a nerf.
Metagross just doesn't hit hard enough with 90bp mash
I don't think 90 bp meteor mash is one of metagross's issues
Another after the bell lecture from Slowbro...man I should have applied to Rutger's
Be grateful for this high quality education!
You wouldn't want me to transfer you to Sophia University, would you...?
@@ImportedCheese Sophia University...you mean Sophia Community College?! No...anything but that!!
RE: the very engaging question; It all depends on the calcs.
90 base power 90% accurate Stone Edge is the same as Aqua Tail, a move no one uses despite that being a pretty nice increase in power over Waterfall. Discounting the flinch chance, having a higher consistency move to use with boosting moves or bulky Water tanks is much more important than the power boost for most players. The same cannot be said for Stone Edge and Rock Slide.
I'd happily take the 90 90 change to Stone Edge if I got it, but I'd like to see something else; 85 base power Rock Slide. I like Stone Edge as it is, and at the power it's at. I don't like having to use it because Rock Slide is stuck in Generation 1.
I don't care about VGC! I don't care if Rock Slide is already busted in VGC, just lower the damn flinch chance! Or better yet, don't have a spread flinch move! Why is that in your game's multiplayer, Game Freak? Masu-don't care about testing our games!
Anyway; I want to keep Stone Miss as it is, but I want the OG boulder move, Rock Slide, to fill the slot instead.
I'd use aqua tail!
If I didn't learn Waterfall
If it had 90% it would not have a margin of the hatred, I promise. The 10% difference means nothing from 1 turn to another but essentially twice that each turn of usage following. Even through negativity bias, you can feel that difference. Thunder Wave, Draco Meteor, Dual Wingbeat, High Jump Kick, Icicle Crash, Leech Seed, Overheat, Play Rough, Crabhammer, Zen Headbutt, just to name a few that are almost vital and provide much more hope in my click. 1/5 is gargantuan compared to the 1/10 in my head.
Bring back 100% thunder wave
90 base power 100% hit but no high Critical hit instead 10% chance of lowering the target's Defense stat by one stage.
I'd take 90 bp and 100 hit vanilla
You're like the coolest uncle!
It must take time to make vids like this one...
But the effort is worth it!
Thank you! But how can I be an uncle, I'm only 30 years young
@@ImportedCheese My Aunt is 32 and I'm 21, life isn't fair Cheese
Assuming the PP amount stays the same, I tend to concede 10 Base Power dor 10 points in accuracy. Take Tornadus, who now prefers Bleakwind Storm over the stronger Hurricane due to the increased accuracy.
Imagine relying on an 80% chance to actually hit stuff
This post was made by the Specs Machamp gang
100% Edgelord success rate, too!
90/90 would be decent, but seeing as powergem is not a common coverage move outside of desperate filler id say 80/100 is a sone throw away from being meta viable.
Are there any power gem users that aren't total ass lmao
There is some serious bullshittery with moves to this day. The whole rock inaccuracy insanity, the fact that there are next to no special Rock, Ground, Fighting moves, and no Physical Ghost moves.
I really think we need a move overhaul. And every type needs a 90 BP move of both special and physical type.
Then anything after that can be a risk reward type situation (high bp at the cost of accuracy) WHY IS THIS NOT ALREADY HOW IT IS???
Stone Edge being 120 base power with a high crit-rate is cool, but if the critical hit chance being removed meant i had 85% accuracy instead of 80% I'd take it. I don't care about the crits, its already 120 bass power
I wish it was 120 base power.... it's 100