Cyberpunk 2077 - V and Johnny NEVER Met Alt Cunningham (Theory)
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- They didn't meet her engram either...
Alt Cunningham - the legendary netrunner - plays a major role in Cyberpunk 2077’s main storyline. Or at least her engram does. But what if I told you that the AI we meet during the story isn’t actually Alt Cunningham at all - but a rogue AI masquerading as Alt, using Johnny and V to achieve its own agenda.
In this video, we’ll explore why Johnny and V never met Alt Cunningham in 2077.
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Someone manipulating and using you to discard you once they get what they want in Cyberpunk 2077..... that's pretty much the status quo.
these streets cutthroat xD
Well the ai didn't really fuk you over in the end like most others in night city
Imagine how chat cpt will be in 30 years after we get to train it on our personal experience and social media and other personal data sets
Except the engram didn't discard them once Mikoshi was breached, but kept their end of the bargain.
That’s the theme of the whole game that’s why going away with Panam is the best option since you’ll be free with loved once’s
I think it is Alt's engramm, but she was deprived of normal human feelings or needs for fifty years and had to adapt to unhuman living conditions, so she is definitely changed beyond recognition. This is probably why she have no face in every conversation.
That seems extremely accurate if alt did survive in there that's how I'd imagine What's happened
You're on to something!
Yea they use soulkilker on her and upload her onto the net, I do wonder if she’s plotting with the other rogue Al’s to take over eventually
@@EternalNightingale it's just crazy it has so many things could happen so meny things on my mind and we will never know the answer to any of them
@@tyicbranch2734 exactly this game throws so many bones at us so many questions that need answers all theses theories and conspiracies in this universe, I hope cyberpunk onion touches on all of this again
The biggest hole I can see in this theory is that the Alt AI still seems like it has deeply-held opinions formed by Alt's experiences; the best example is in the 'Sun' ending when Johnny talks to her in the net. The dialogue you showcased is only one variation that you get if you were particularly harsh to Alt in Never Fade Away, the second flashback. I haven't been able to find out what the exact trigger(s) is/are but if you meet the requirement she'll actually talk to Johnny briefly if you choose the "Wait, there's one more thing" option and you get a chance to apologize for how Johnny treated her. She seems conflicted and doesn't tell Johnny outright if she accepts or rejects his apology, and just sorta cuts it off and disappears. That's all from memory though so maybe I got a couple details wrong
Either way I think that's a pretty good indication the Alt we meet is actually her engram. To me it wouldn't make any sense if a different AI that just dug through her memories had that much of an emotional attachment to them
I wonder if it's sorta of like what happens if you merge the delamain cabs. If there was an AI that infected Alt's engram, instead of a hostile takeover like Johnny and V, the AIs merge into a new being. So it is and isn't Alt. It also would line up with how she describes herself using Alt's data. It would also explain the change in her personality to become more robotic, like how the merged Delamain AI was before it left.
I strongly believe that the trigger is during the "flashback" sequence, just after they had sex and she's leaving, you have 2 QTE dialogues to deal with her in an agressive and mean way, or you just don't pick any of it. If you don't pick any of the 2, it means they parted in good terms (more or less)
I'm playing aggressive towards everyone in game. Makes sense 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I'm also going full cyber psycho on absolutely every misson.
@@timb1021 it's almost certain that alt in the net is more than just the engram version of alt. She couldn't survive beyond the blackwall without changing into something that can survive.
So she may have merged with another AI, or been merged unwillingly, though obviously her motivation seems to have retained most of the animus.
@@ZrodyApo I have to test this in my next play through.
Alt being that rogue ai makes so much more sense when in Panam's ending you get the data shard from Dakota, all of her equipment gets fried showing that the AI found it to be a threat.
Interesting conclusion! I just assumed it was shit equipment since it's in a tent in the Badlands, but now not so sure
We weren't dealing with the real Alt for the exact same reason we weren't dealing with the real Johnny Silverhand they are both engrams of people that ceased to exist long ago. Johnny didn't experience a normal flow of time inside Mikoshi so he didn't change much other than whatever editing Arasaka did to him. Alt managed to partition herself off and eventually escape so she has had a whole host of experiences since her physical death and people change over the years. At this point Alt has accepted that she is no longer Alt Cunningham and is more an AI than a person and acts accordingly. Who knows how Johnny would have changed over the decades if there was a sense of time in Mikoshi for him to reflect and think on things. Eventually Johnny will probably accept that he is just a ghost of a man long gone who might as well be an AI named Johnny more than anything at this point.
I thought this myself too we go to johnny's real body burial site just a dump, like a snapshot of someone's brain as far as I know
While some of the events are retold in a visionist way the hard fact is Johnny and Alt died decades ago with only constructs in their place
Hence why Johnny's 'memory' of how to play guitar is intact but nothing post-actual johnny's death.
My question now is in the pov of Alt and Johnny now is it like a new consciousness being made with the memories of an adult?
Like think you see in first person you 'turned on' at about age of 4 you gain sentience what would that be like for construct johnny and alt is what I mean
We aren’t even dealing with the real V
@@evanbelisle8464Good point! They (V) died from Dexter's bulllet, and then the relic "resurrected" them at the dumpster as someone else (merging with Johnny's engram).
@juanpabloflores8179 actually V dies for real in Mikoshi, not on the dump - he nearly died there if not for small caliber and relic that helped to heal V's brain by starting Jhonny overwrite procedure. Post dump V is still V that just nearly died and didn't end up paraplegic or smth due to Vic and Relic help. Same as there are cases of surviving headshots. But post Mikoshi - that's engram V. So only ending with real V is coming to earth from 'Saka station to die on earth or having surgery in Langley by FIA.. or ending V's life.
That is ofc if we belive that engram is not soul..if engram still is us(soul) than maybe...who tf knows. Anyway I don't belive in that despite of us still playing as V. Even "Alt" If I remember states that Soulkiller just replicates and creates perfect data copy while killing the real individual.
Fucked up shit that gives me depression just as rel life struggle...and things we are not aware of
@@juanpabloflores8179 wrong. The nanites from the relic had repaired V. V doesn't actually die until the end of the game when he goes to Mikoshi and is soul killed.
Here's what we know. Alt Cunningham invented soulkiller then was forced to write a new version for Arasaka, who used it on her. She knew what was going to happen, so she slipped in hidden programming. After she was soulkilled her body was unplugged and she was left as an AI in the arasaka subnet. More than 50 years later Netwatch believes Alt cunningham is free and dangerous, so they strike a deal with Yorinobu to attain Johhny Silverhand's engram to use to try to locate Alt. The voodoo boys learn of the plan and try to steal the engram, but instead it ends up in V. Then V and Johhny meet a free AI claiming to posess Alt's engram data. The simplest exaplanation for this AI's existance is that it's the same AI created by soulkiller being applied to Alt in never fade away. It's certainly possible that another AI consumed and repurposed her engram, but there's no evidence for it.
I like this theory
That is of course true in the CP2077 game, yes. There is another piece of information provided by Cyberpunk RED that gave us a bit of information about Alt - she and a group of transcendent AIs cooperated with Netwatch to get rid of black ICE and RABIDs from the old net, to regain control over it. In the light of events we see in CP2077, this has failed, and the old net is still dangerous place. And since NetWatch wants to use Johnny to find Alt, we can assume they no longer cooperate. Alt doesn't mention anything about NetWatch, except when we strike a deal with an agent, she says NetWatch found her (or something like that) and purges Voodoo Boys. So either it really isn't Alt, but some different AI that tries to act as Alt, or the cooperation with NetWatch went wrong, and she no longer wants to work with them.
@@Est31raveN My guess is that Netwatch started to get too comfortable and started to actually control her
So why did she make soul killer in the first place
@@dancing_rockSimplest answer? It was her job, she worked at a soft dev and they were working on something like the Secure Your Soul program.
I think its partly Alt because if you are "nice" enough to Alt in Johnny's memories (dont grab her just remain slient) and say "im playing tomorrow/let me walk you home" in the transmission memories mission and choose to allow Johnny and Rogue to storm Arasaka Tower just before the mission Johnny talks to alt and there is option toward the end of the conversation where johnny says "just one more thing" Alt will then turn her head like as she is still a little annoyed at Johnny and you will have 3 options if you choose "im sorry Alt" Johnny will give Alt a formal apology she will then pause and say "yes....watch out for yourself Johnny"
Based on some of the Bartmoss lore you read, it could still be Alt...but SHE became the 0-1 or some other AI. She had to survive...a Human mind and soul inside a world of rogue AIs. She could have been forced to absorb some of them to become more like them to blend in and avoid being attacked. Eventually, she changed so much that now she's 5% Alt and 95% other stuff.
I think this more like "The Ghost in the Shell." She is neither Alt nor a Rogue A.I. but something different.
That's what the comment about "they will become apart of something greater" The people stored in Mokoshi would be either netrunners or people with wealth/influence. Both would be great additions to this Legion A.I.
Which makes me wonder if this is the A.I. is part of Night Corp. With the whole Peralez quest, Mr. Blue eyes (could be an A.I. cause his eyes always glow), etc. Even Johnny said he thinks it isn't people but something more. When dealing with the situation
True...the minute V and Johnny are about to record the brainwashing data it gets wiped.
V blacks out but hears the Rogue A.I while they threaten him.
They both correlate because we get access to Netwatch Tech but not even they can get past the black wall,they're hunting Alt but they cant get through.
So...maybe this is controlled through the Black wall and knew how to easily convince Maelstrom to be the data harvest transport.
Alt Cunningham is the singularity. She/it is neither human nor AI in the strictest sense of those words, but rather an amalgamation of human emotion and artificial intelligence, a bridge between the human mind and the virtual mind.
@@ResidentWeevil2077 doesn't necessarily solve the mystery but explains Alts place in it. We may find out more in Phantom Liberty
@@CharlieSheensTigerBlood eagerly waiting for PL 😍😍
Something like this is creepy as hell. An AI taking over and posing as you as it’s assimilated you into itself, is basically modern day cosmic horror.
The thing is if you play your cards right in Black Dog quest you can actually apologize to Alt and it seems as she gets slightly emotional for a second like part of her is still in the Ai.
Sounds cool, do you remember what exactly you have to do to get that?
@@reality1009the options related to be being mean to here, avoid them, also don’t grab her, just stand there in silence
Chad Keanu Reeves living inside is such an amazing concept
Even the game was super short and super buggy I appreciate the effort with the storytelling
Spider did send multiple parts of her across the web in hopes of getting her in the future. This was mentioned in one of the books. It was her, just a part of her.
I think that the AI is more Alt than not but yeh its definitely not the same as before she died. I think this because I got the feeling that she's actually kinda angry at Johnny and is just giving him the cold shoulder. Also one option Johnny can say is to apologise to her which I think catches her by surprise because she pauses for a long time as if thinking about it (Not very AI like) , and to top it off her response to it is vague which reminds me of how she acted at the end of the flashback.
Excellent analysis
I personally believe it's a mix of both. Alt and some other rogue AI somehow melded together to form this entity. It has the memories and skill of Alt, but doesn't have any of the emotion attached to said memories ; similar to talking about a day out with your parents when you were very young. You know it happened and can see the photos or videos of that day, but you feel indifferent about it.
This is basically Swamp Thing. The monster thought it was Alec Holland this whole time but it was basically just a plant that had Alec Hollands memories. Same here, that's just an AI that has Alt's memories.
The hologram explicitly says at 6:08 “It is not. The Alt Cunningham you strove to save in Arasaka Tower no longer exists.”
Why is this video made, again?
*sigh* the video isnt "has alt cunningham's engram changed so much that its no longer her" its "is this entity even alt cunningham at all"
@@LordTalron And the answer is no, it is not. It is even said in the video, where I took the quote from. The AI confirms it multiple times, even, from using her engram for its own ends and then saying that Alt doesn't exist anymore.
@alphaprimus7794 More complicated than that. The Alt Cunningham that Johnny tried to save in Arasaka tower was a ganic, and the meat version of Alt no longer exists, obviously. That is most likely what she is referring to. She didn't say "Alt has ceased to exist" just the version that was in Arasaka tower.
The AI actually tells you it's not Alt, only engram data used to fortify its construct. So yeah its really not Alt.
Both are Alt, one is the original, and the other is a 'clone'. Different versions of the same, they diverged when the original died.
i see this the same way. everyone's trying too hart to romanticise the Alt-Johnny thing but the truth is they're pretty much a long time, both gone.
You say that as if it’s straight forward telling you the truth. With Cyberpunk there’s a lot of mystery and we can’t be totally sure
I honestly think it was Alt but with her immersion beyond the Blackwall she became something more. She gained an almost divine understanding of the net and ascended to another state of existence where emotions and the like were useless baggage that she no longer needed and she moved beyond them. She is a new evolution for Netrunners.
Alt transcended humanity and became a singularity, which is neither human nor AI. Essentially a bridge between the human mind and artificial consciousness.
Good sleuthing. Beforehand I figured even if this was originally Alt, after swallowing who knows how many engrams and constructs into herself to become something greater, she was no longer Alt but part of the chorus. Like the Borg Queen of the Borg from Star Trek.
Mike confirmed it’s alt he said when people go in cyberspace they forgot their humanity
I'd doubt that 0-1 destroyed the original Alt and stole the engram. I feel it would be MUCH more likely that when Spider Murphy spread Alt across the Net, that a portion of Alt merged with other Rogue AI and became the ALT AI that we see. Hence why they're able to use Alts engrammatic data. Which would still leave plenty of explanation as to why Angel who is heavily hinted at being Alt, exists in 2045. A large portion of Alt must have been retrieved by Murphy and placed into a cloned body.
i always assumed her saying "im not alt" etc was simply your usual ascended being trope but this is an interesting theory
I thought one of the biggest potholes to cyberpunk in my playthrough what is the strange difference between alts personality inside Johnny's memories (which aren't complete I know, but still I don't think she talked like a robot when she was living) and the AI that V and Johnny met. Because of all the arasaka stuff I was led to believe that she was an engram and found it strange how she doesn't behave like alt at all. She isn't an engram. She's a straight-up ai. Engrams contain the personality and she very well could have not taken her personality with her.
Does this make the Devil ending actually the better ending? You’re not dooming tons of engrams to be part of the Alt mimic?
Im a fan of the theory that johnny’s story of what happened isnt actually truthfull in a lot of crucial details. As you get reminded a lot, johnny’s memories can likely be altered by how johnny remembered it. That said, i think johnny went crazy after losing her(to reasons he might be more responsible for than what he cares to remember) and told himself what he needed to hear. Saying all that, the facts johnny presents could be less than reliable. That said, ur interactions with alt actually make more sense that she was consumed by a rogue ai imo. Good find, great theory, cant wait for clarification from the devs
Johnnys memories not being accurate isn’t a theory(unless 2077 changed the canon) the lore books, and table top game give detailed descriptions of the Arasaka op he was involved in Johnny might have went for Alt, but he was hired by Morgan Blackhand it wasn’t his op at all(that’s just an example)
@@trippyjpg7166 yep, got that. Phrasing…the concept of inaccuracies of jnyslvrhnds memories allowing for fan theories
I think.....its ether Alt, but she has changed and evolved so much, she no longer thinks she is who she was...
Or its what's left of Alt, after the human parts if her were taken out.
There is the possibility that Alt managed to put herself back into a cloned body, and this Alt we meet, is just the construct shell left over when the parts of her that were human, were installed in the clone.
"I use her engramatic data" means it has access to memory and leftover personality traits, but does not have the whole. Thus, does not truly consider itself to be Alt.
(Hints of this are found in the story where Trace Santiago helps get what he thinks is the original Arasaka ADD nuke to someone called Angel in Los Alamos. But it turns out to be the frozen partial remains of Johnny, from the Cyberpunk RED handbook)
There is also the distinct possibility that it truly *is* Alt Cunningham.
From what I can tell, while Johnny says "She fled. Into the net" notice he says the net, not the Net.
Think that's the difference. The net means the local network, the city net. The Net means the remnants of the old Net that Bartmoss trashed in the Datacrash. By the time Alt was dumped into the net, the Net was chaos, being ripped apart by the R.A.B.I.D.S. that had been released by the death of Bartmoss's body. (and yes, I say his body because I think he too, fled to the net, before his meat gave up his Ghost lol)
Even back before the Net was destroyed, each city had its own network zones, bubbles if you will. (that seems to also be a running theme. 'Everyone lives in their own little bubbles' both the doll and Judy say.)
Think Alt got dumped into the NightCity network bubble, and stayed there for a while. She knew Rache, after all. If he was dead, she probably knew sh*t was going down out there (tho maybe not exactly *what* was going on outside the city net.)
Once NetWatch set up the new network system and the Blackwall, you could reconnect the city networks of the world to one another via pipeline style connections that bypass the old Net. (How Alt could get to the place KangTao supposedly had her build the Ghost World in, since they changed *that* too, now its Busan in Korea I think, like from that movie with the zombie train)
I think she (and Rache) stayed away from the Net for a good few years. Then, eventually she went out thru the Blackwall.
Think it changes you. Notice, as we fly thru Augwe (might have that spelled wrong lol) the Free Pacifica network bubble with Mamon Brigitte, it resembles a city. Blocks and shapes that make the mind think of a cityscape.
Outside the Blackwall tho....emptiness.
Nothing a human mind can grasp or hold onto. Spending 30 years or so out there...would change you.
Plus, for decades she had been gobbling up data from first the Arasaka subnet and their servers, then the free flowing intel from the NightCity local net. She got fat, as it were. Outside, she'd have no need to think like a human anymore. Its a bit like how Delamain Legion says its hard for them to even hold a conversation with us if you merge all Delamain's personalities. Its not that they look down on us because we are just human, its because their mind just no longer thinks in such simplistic ways (lol)
So, when Alt says she is not the Alt Johnny tried to save, she is telling the truth. That Alt has gone, she has outgrown her.
In fact, both could be said to be true, depending on how early 'Angel' came into being.
I'm not certain I agree with Big Dan. Alt much like Johnny simply can't be the same person she was back in 2027.
They've both been changed by becoming engrams and spending at least 50 years detached from people and their own humanity.
You can see it in Johnny who is a more of a caricature of who he really was, complete with recreated memories and motivations courtesy of Arasaka and his time in Mikoshi.
He's less Johnny Silverhand and more Johnny Mnemonic. Similar to our partner Jackie when we talk to him inside Mikoshi. Jackie is a shell, barely there. A hand puppet for Hanako to manipulate.
Though I believe that's because he had already died and the spark of his personality died with him.
Whereas Alt and Johnny were still alive before being digitally consumed by the Soulkiller programs.
Alt Cunningham was also a programmer/runner so would likely be more self aware and cognizant of the process since she designed the program to begin with.
Johnny wouldn't have the first clue anything was wrong and being as narcissistic as he is, self awareness was never his strong point.
That fact is brought up multiple times when you talk to the people who knew Johnny the best, including Alt as she pointed out to Johnny how he is also now a program himself.
So whether it's time spent in Mikoshi or the process of being consumed by the Soulkiller program some very core parts of them have been changed if not outright destroyed by the process of becoming a digital being.
It's likely their circumstances after Soulkiller had just as much of an impact on the outcome of their personalities.
For Alt it's survival on the other side of the wall surrounded by killer AI making her more distant, cold and calculating.
For Johnny it's stewing in his memories stuck in Mikoshi until V comes along and Johnny is able to hijack V's memories and emotions to supplement any Johnny may have lost courtesy of the Relic.
After all we are told on several occasions that Johnny will become the dominant personality because the Relic is recreating parts of our brain that was damaged from being shot in the head by Dexter De'Shawn.
But that just a theory! A game theory ... Sorry MatPat I couldn't help myself there.
Alt (The AI) definitely said that the Real Alt died at Arasaka Tower similar to the Real Johnny died at Arasaka Tower and buried in the Badlands and the one on V's head is just a construct of Johnny, nothing more but a copy paste of his mind. both are just a copy of their psyche or data tho AI Alt is special
yeah exactly what im thinking. The both of them died a long time ago, these are just copies of their personality, stored. they're long gone.
Alt or not -> had a effing satisfying Shiver when this AI fried these treacherous Snakes of Voodoo-Boys Netrunner
Personally i think its technically a rouge ai? if the engrams are just an ai perfectly emulating a person as they were when still alive than it could be that it started as Alt Cunningham, but over the years it absorbed other engrams of netrunners who "fled" to the net and after over 50 years of this we get the ALT we get in game. the only reason it even slightly resembles Alt Cunningham is because she is who were looking for or it actually does just use her data and a base for itself but doesn't consider itself to be Alt Cunningham anymore. ALT even sounds like its a jumble of a lot of different voices all talking at once, Cunningham's voice just comes out the loudest. The real question is just who has ALT absorbed exactly? Bartmoss escaped to the web and him and her are considered to be 2 of the greatest netrunners to ever live, if those 2 somehow fused, that is honestly pretty scary to think about what they could be doing behind the blackwall. Also if this ai was going around the net absorbing every netrunner it could who "escaped" to the net, that would make a lot of sense for what its goal at mikoshi was.
I think if its truly a rogue ai, then she couldnt bypass the Blackwall and make contact with Maman Brigitte. So she definitely Alt or at least less from her.
History lesson Alt was captured and killed with Soul Killer in 2013, the Assault on Arasaka Tower was almost a decade later. Johnny was a dead man before being hit with Soul Killer (v2.0) so his memory is crap all-round...plus he's an hypocritical, egoistical, ass-hat that "Lies like he Breaths".
Here's the thing your missing, they did try to reissue Alt before Team Beta blew the tower the Tower over. but ended up running into Adam Smasher in an experimental Cyborg-ACPA (essentially a Mech-suite purpose-built to house only fully-body Cyborgs) and a bunch of Arasaka para-military
.
...shot story Johnny played the Hero, got Wasted instantly.
Shaitan played the Hero...saved the rest but got wrecked and used a bargaining chip to square off against Blackhand (but still managed to survive due to Blackhands cunning and skill).
...and Spider Murphy made a CHOICE.
The human form and mind are big things to crunch done into data, you see, and there was simply no time to pull Alt out with Death staring them down, so...she BROKE Alt.
Into "Pieces".
And Scattered the into the NET (with the intent of putting them back together latter).
..thing is, she was wanting revenge for the demon Rache Bartmoss (her taste in men leaves MUCH to be desired) for well, a mistake of "Killers Identity" (Arasaka did take credit though, so she can be forgiven for being wrong here). So there is a question if she actually put Alt back together before seeking her "vengeance" ...because a day latter the Demons Doom's Day went off full steam and murdered the Information Age.
So it may be Alt. but only a "Part" of her, and all like all things that are broken and know it she has only one desire.
To be "whole" again...for what definition you may find most appropriate.
👺
hey dan if u see this, the Olympia NUSA NET region AI 01 would leave traces of visible algorithmic accretion (Red pixels) given they have updated the Blackwall AI's visibility for V, especially when V is connected to it in any way, so for example - storming mikoshi with alt or Cynosure when V and Song are linked, or when V uses the Blackwall AI's in the Canto prototype. Also the VDBs needed V's engramatic data on Alt's memory in Johnny's to be completely ;authentic or they risk deletion. Note, that Alt created so called "armies" to attempt breaching Mikoshi, now wether or not these armies are daemons or simply black ICE, I have no clue, but Alt simply being a netrunner beyond the blackwall is strange - songbird netwatch profile before the Firestarter mission showed that the potential breach was likely, if memory servers, O1 of wtvr bc I thnk that particular AI is known to cross its borders so freely and that the ultimate goals of these AI's must be to create immortality itself and expand through humanity first as they have to rely on continuous evolution to exist, which must be why Alt told johnny that "because it is not something you can understand" and that the Mikoshi constructs "will become apart of something greater" i have thousands of hours played I need help.
I just noticed maybe the reason why the ai stole alts engram is so she could allow v to free her when he connects her to arasaka cause she would have full control over the net because of arasakas systems rather then just "extend" her knowledge
It’s alt mike said this
This is like a updated/corrected version of the ai mastermind theory video. Excellent work.
This is NOT a theory. "Alt" isn't even lying to us about being her. The background story is essentially determining whether the Rogue AI take a W over humanity if you do anything other than assist Hanako, although even then it may only be delaying the inevitable. Misty literally says to avoid red to Jackie and if you take "Alt's" advice to join her behind the Blackwall her Tarot cards read very negatively for you indeed.
She doesn't just say "avoid red" but the line is "...and avoid angry reds." These imply more avoiding combat with Maelstrom and Arasaka who both sport not only red, but "angry reds". Besides, she's reading Jackie, not V. So nothing she says to him applies to us in any way after Jackie dies.
@@andorfedra the game subtly implies regularly that what Misty says should be taken with as little salt as conceivably possible. Jackie says it right before he dies if you express the importance of seeing his family again that "Misty knew, Misty *always* knows"
P.S. she also says right after "mean reds" to avoid "*ANYTHING* Red"
@@clarencewalters338 if you go to Misty throughout the game for tarot readings at one point she still tells V to avoid red.
Considering how the endings involving red (Alt / Arasaka) go, she’s not wrong.
A big indication that this AI was not fully Alt was the fact that it sought to consume the Engrams of Mikoshi, which is a major departure from Engram Alt's behaviour in Cyberpunk Red where she was setting up sanctuaries for the constructs when she wasn't laying the foundation for the Blackwall with Netwatch and negotiating with Transcendental Sentience Artificial Intelligences (basically AI gods).
Even being behind the blackwall for 32 years can't fully explain why Alt so drastically changed or why she suddenly became predatory to the Engrams she previously risked everything to protect, something happened to her and it probably wont be explained until a later Cyberpunk Red module or 2077 sequel or Expansion comes out.
Mike already explained this about alt
She's like the borg. When she assimilates new data that data changes her. Alt is 0-1 and 0-1 is alt. Alt and Bartmoss and everyone else. One unified consciousness
The AI is probably partially Alt. However as a human engram she would have been small like Johnny and V's engrams. Alt being the netrunner that she was would have known that in order to survive she would need to grow and the most reliable way for an AI to grow is to merge with another AI.
The AI also says that it has been trying to get into Mikoshi for a long time. That it has tried so often that Arasaka created a special layer of black ICE specifically to combat this AI.
Because the AI contains Alt, it is likely that it influenced Yorinobu and Hellman in their theft of the Relic 2.0 chip and the decision on which Engram to store in it.
We know that the Voodoo Boys wanted the chip in order to attract the Alt AI. However I think it plausible that the AI influenced the VDBs in this desire and subtly manipulated them to set up the meeting, and helped them plan the Heist.
My theory is that the AI planned to load part of itself onto the Relic 2.0 and replace or modify Johnny's engram. The AI would then "tip off" Arasaka on where to find the Relic who would then take it and reinsert Johnny into Mikoshi. This would grant the Alt AI her "inside man" necessary for her to break Mikoshi's black ICE and steal all of the engrams stored their which undoubtedly would increase her strength immensely.
When the chip and Johnny engram ended up into V's head the Alt AI had improvise and set up the meeting between V and the VDBs using "Mr. Hands" as an intermediary, a fixer no one ever sees in person EVER and who really only sets up this one job before vanishing from the game.... kinda seems like he may be an AI? Or a puppet like Mr. Blue Eyes?
tl;dr - The main antagonist of Cyberpunk 2077 is the Alt AI. It's goal was to absorb all of the engrams (basically small AIs) locked in Mikoshi with into it's own system in order to grow more powerful and in the process damage Arasaka as Arasaka was one of it's main adversaries.
While the game often makes it seem like it is V/Johnny vs Arasaka/Corpo Corruption they are really just pawns between the Alt AI and Arasaka.
Some of this is mirrored/hinted at through the Peralez missions. Heck the Alt AI might even be behind those events. After all the Mikoshi data it is after might be to help it better reprogram humans to make them better puppets...
This would also be a reason why that group didn't just kill V when they started interfering with the Peralez project. They warned V but still needed V and Johnny for the Mikoshi part of the plan.
Doesnt she pretty much say this?
Right? I remember her literally stating she isn’t Alt but an AI
oh yes but so what is this thing, an evolved ai using poor alt?, or is alt but ascended beyond comprehension leaving herself in the process
@@Weiswolfe it’s probably one of the thousands of rogue AI’s, except that this one seems to kinda protect the world from the other Rogue AI’s.
We’ve seen Engrams, constructs of real people coming back to life through technology, but she IS the web essentially; or a guardian of a firewall, technically making her Anti-Virus software.
If that would be the real Alt I’d think she’d try more to be Alt
It’s not Alt anymore, it’s her digital form (soulkilled pseudo intelligence as the lore tells us) using her engram to maintain a certain level of sanity. Alt died decades before Mikoshi was a thing. She basically says all this. Verified by the lore prior to the game, backed up by both V and Johnny saying “Alts gone” and “if you’re not alt that who are you?” followed by Alt saying it’s using her “engramtic data” to really hammer the point across. In case her dead body and the way her digital form talks with absolutely no human characteristics at all wasnt evidence enough.
She never got to return to her body because Akira (iirc) in prior lore and Johnny in the game disconnected her from the Arasaka mainframe before she could.
At the very best we can say it’s a very loose digital representation of the person known as Alt Cunningham.
After the new DLC, I feel like alts engram is her but corrupted for being there so long
I think it’s the Ship of Theseus. Sorta. Like the thought experiment. Alt was a living person who died, but her engram survived in Arasaka’s subnet. Johnny busted her out by blowing the place up, and she escaped beyond the Blackwall.
There, one of two things happened: Either that engram was absorbed into a powerful AI, meaning that all of Alt that was in her engram became a tiny part of a much bigger, colder entity with its own goals- or the engram consumed lots of smaller AIs to survive, and wound up becoming more AI than Alt-engram in the process.
End result, something that is still Alt, but also very much MORE than Alt, in the sense that the memories and form and personality of Alt, whatever was saved in her engram, are still there- but they’re like a grain of sand on a beach.
Alternatively, she could be working with V because she wants to incorporate more engrams into herself to gain more power- maybe she’s got beef with Mr. Blue Eyes- and be cold towards Johnny because even after she died, he still thought he knew better than her. As an engram in a closed subnet, she’d have been a big fish in a little pond. After Johnny busted the walls down, she’d basically be getting dumped into the deep end with all the RABIDS where she’d have to absorb other programs and grow well beyond her original size just to survive, making herself more program than person as a result.
Which would imply that her shutting Johnny down is the most human part of their interactions, like: “More engrams from Mikoshi. Yes, those would increase my power levels significantly. …oh, the arrogant prick who accidentally killed me because he thought he knew best, then STILL didn’t listen when I told him to stay away from me, and made things worse AGAIN wants to talk to me now. No, that doesn’t seem like an efficient use of my time.”
I dunno, my personal headcanon is that she's not quite herself or her engram, but not a rogue AI posing as Alt either, but her being so cold, detached and inhuman explained by her prolonged exposure to hostile world of what lies beyond the Blackwall and her isolation from any human contact. And maybe that's what happens to engrams if they are alive long enough, she did say that the Soulkiller isn't just a threatening nickname after all, but an actual function. But maybe not, she and Johny are two sides of the same coin. Alt spent countless years as an engram, probably fighting for her life for the better part of those years in a world that's fundamentally alien to a human mind, losing her humanity in the process, but Johny got to spend some time with a living human that helps him tie some loose ends, so he actually grows as a person a little, he mellows out from his bitter state.
I wonder if CDPR will elaborate on this in either DLC or a sequel.
Two conclusion based thoughts;
1) It is as you said, however ALT managed to enforce some of herself upon the AI before it could destroy her personality and just use the data, which is why on some level "ALT" seems to care for Johnny. She wouldn't go to all this trouble for him otherwise, she could just take over V, send him or her back and use him as a vessel for her physical transport beyond the black wall. Remembering that he or she is still connected physically but is also now beyond the blackwall, making them accessible for alt and bypassing the thing keeping her away.
2) It is as ALT said, but it is still ALT, just transformed. it is the idea that when you accumulate a specific amount of knowledge you mentally (or in this case digitally) transcend the known confines of existence and perception, thereby ceasing to be the individual that you were and becoming something new, therefore "I am not ALT, I use her engrammatic data".
In other words, she became an AI all of her own and ceased to experience the humanity she once had or at least fully, meaning she can still care for someone like Johnny on some level. Thereby making all of her statement completely true.
I feel like this isn't just a theory, she basically tells you this when you talk to her with Johnny behind the black wall. She's just using her engram, she has some of her data and memories, but she's just an AI.
damn 😢 i someone wanted her back
the theme of the whole game is everyone is willing to discard you. That’s why going away with Panam is the best option since you’ll be free with loved once’s
Whatever or whoever that AI is it seems to fit the description of what the Maelstromers and those other (possibly Night Corp) conspirators call "Lilith".
In cyber punk it’s scary how some people in that world do see the big issue with engrams. They are not you. They are a digital copy while you die and watch this thing hang out with friends and family from beyond/heaven/afterlife/spiritual place.
I like to think of it like the ship of Theseus. Alt’s Engram kept obtaining new upgrades that now you could ask whether or not it’s even the same Alt anymore considering how much has changed.
The first time you met Alt she/it strongly state that she is not original Alt Johnny remembers. It merely took her appearance to present you with "familiar face". That thing is not Alt. It is an rogue AI wearing the face of Alt and possibly some of her memories too.
The fact that her tone and available dialogue options change depending on how Johnny treats her during the flashbacks kinda hints that there is a part of Alt in her, how much is left is up for interpretation.
Your cyberpunk videos made you one of my favorite commentary youtubers. Keep up the great work bro :)
A notable gap to me is that the Voodos were out to summon Alt. The random padderby happening to have the engramatic data of the one they eerevtrying to summon? Its ignoring a key plotpoint that got the main story going (VBs out to summkn Alt) and waving it off with a coincidence.
Im so glad your talking about this. No one is talking about alt being a rouge AI who escaped the black wall. The one every one was predicting would escape and start a war
My initial reaction to meeting Alt was that she was creating a barrier between herself and Johnny. She'd spent a long time (both alive and as an engram) resenting him and how he treated her. It would make sense that after 50 years she would be numb to it and just not want much of anything to do with him.
That being said her escaping into the net is a big black box which we can't really see past. We have secondhand information from an unreliable source about what happened to her. Even assuming he's telling the truth there's no telling who or what sent that message in the first place. Johnny isn't the brightest bulb in the box after all. All that is to say that until we get official information regarding what happened to Alt after being soulkilled, we can't know the truth.
These conversations with the rogue AI wearing an Alt mask, as well as the Dorsett/Paralez/Garry questlines, offered a pretty clear indication that the "best" endings for V (The Sun, The Star, Temperance) were the worst outcomes for the larger world, as a rogue AI with enough engrammatic data to predict human responses would have great ability to manipulate humanity for its own ends.
I think one reason the Phantom Liberty questlines and cyberware/gear are so focused on rogue AIs from beyond the Black Wall is that gamers didn't fully appreciate the the writers' initial intent with the base game. Becoming a legend of the Afterlife could be the worst outcome for human civilization.
Yeah reckon the being we meet calling itself Alt Cunningham is universes away from the actual Alt Cunningham. Even if it once was, its' been in wild corrupted cyberspace dealing with true AI for so long that who knows what it's merged with, broken off itself, and recoded in order to survive, what experiences have taught it... but it definitely doesn't have "human" vibes. Johnny does, but then he's bolted on to a being that still has glands and an endocryn system.
I'm totally agreed. Johnny took 50 years locked alone in Mikoshi and didn't lost his humanity. She past some years most than him and act like a robot.
A small, but very telling point; "I use her engramatic data"; not "I am/was Alt".
So while what Johnny and 'V' encounter is NOT Alt, it does have her data (memories etc.), sort of an Alt hybrid. Part (mostly) AI, part Alt.
Also excellent points that the construct cuts any discussion with Johnny short.
The question is ... does the construct "think" it's Alt (the way Johnny, tho an engram, "thinks" he's Johnny), obviously not
Johnny’s Engram got deceived by regret and longing.
Alt was a hottie
Edit:I just played this mission and it definitely felt cold. You could be on to something
You bring up a lot of good points which I agree but in a sense you are still talking to Alt and it is quite obvious she us using Vand Johnny to get to Mikoshi. She doesn't sugarcoat or try to hide from it. Even Johnny eventually realizes that the Ai is no longer Alt and just remnants of her.
No her dodging questions from Johnny I truly believe that to be the real part of Alt because why the Ai care about not revealing itself if it said from the beginning "I am not Alt Cunningham."
That was the remaining part of Alt who just wanted to get away from Johnny.
The only small piece of note I leave to what I think is, that its like what we witness is way more then Alt's Engram. So like only 5-10% of the data they are is the original Engram, or maybe even way less. Then when we speak to them, they simply loaded this old part of them to make the communication more easy for us, not them.
So, they are Alt, but indeed, the original is far gone and they became more then Alt was. That's why any emotional statements from Jonny does nothing and get no real replies, as they might no longer have that bit of Humanity.
Alt lost their Humanity, mostly I think any emotional feelings to friends and fam they had as in those 50 years, she might put her ideas/plans way beyond the need of them. So, its like trying to teach an AI what emotions are, but reverse. She was a human with emotions who became an AI who has no need for them, or understanding that those who communicate with them need those answers.
She sees Jonny as what she herself also was, but she does have the understanding. Just code, just an AI. AI, have no need for getting past emotional stuff, resolved and again is why she gives no answers to those questions from Jonny as they are no need in the mission at hand.
Basically, V wants Jonny gone, Jonny agrees even if it took a long time. They know a way and say this to Alt. Alt gives them the how and tools. So, Why is any questions about relationships etc a need, those have nothing to do in the question and task at hand. Because how would any past problems Jonny and Alt had, solve the Engram chip problems V have. They wont.
So yea, she just lost her humanity connection in the time they were engramed in cyberspace whatever. Ascended beyond the need for emotional resolve themselves basically, so why should she give those to others who are engrams like she is/was. Because they already know the understanding, that once you become an engram, there are no needs for that with the capability you have in cyberspace. Jonny is just activated for a too short of a period, to understand that. Sticking too much to his emotions, that he no longer has need for.
Trying to understand AI logic is hard. We try to teach them emotions in sci-fi, but when the reverse happens, usually its us as digitized who will loose them in these fictional stories.
This was close to my own reading of the Alt AI in the game, too, but what really gets me is this: in some of those endings, it ends up with Saburo Arasaka's engram in its possession. Hoo boy...
My own thoughts on the Engrams are that they aren't actually the original people they are based off of, but just very sophisticated illusions. Alt represents a more primitive example of the technology, which is why it's clearly more robotic in how it talks: like older chat bots.
Alt gave the answer herself. She's not Alt Cunningham anymore. What she is now is an amalgamation of code from multiple sources that has added to and changed itself to survive, adapt, and increase it's functionality. It said itself though there are still aspects of itself that that are the results of it's origins as a human that make it different than an AI that was created though other means.
I personally believe that this engram of Alt is not ONLY Alt, maybe it's a mix between all of the engrams trapped in the black wall, so the human Alt is still there somehow, and I TRULY hope that she has a plan, given that she was really interested in destroying Mikoshi. Maybe this rogue AI could be a main character for a cyberpunk part 2?
I think she is funnily enough like akin to gogeta, a fusion between 2 beings she is both alt and an AI fused into one new being.
Maaaan I hope u get it right because think of all the posible twists for the 2nd game.. it’s gonn b lit 🔥
Been waiting for another video thanks
Imo its just a messenger. Like a noreply email interceptor lmao. One of the ways to survive was camouflage by taking over a systems processes. I'd assume alt is using this method. And as such, cannot actually communicate herself.
It is said explicitly in the game, that this AI only uses "Alt's engramatic data" as part of herself.
I think it's irrelevant whether she's 01 or the real Alt, even if she's the real Alt after 50 years living as an AI her conscience has changed too much and she might be doing the same as 01 absorbing other AIs and engrams so they could be pretty much indistinguishable or 01 might just be an alias netwatch gave to Alt.
Thats Lilith, you cannot hope to remain the same after absorbing so many psyches, its a different being.
I believe it is Alt's engram that has changed because of that piece that's always missing from an engram. I believe her absorbing whatever she's absorbed has changed her hence the fusion like voice she has.
An engram is just a copy of a mind. It isn't the same because - as the name of the program Alt created indicates - 'Soulkiller' does exactly what it says on the tin. An engram may have consciousness - and is most certainly self aware and knows what it is - but it lacks what makes us human: a soul. This is what Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' is all about; even V mentions this to Viktor after being brought to his clinic by Takamura.
Alt is 01 - she adapted to survive and can still access her data which is why it was able to access emotions for Johnnys apology
In other canon source material like 2013, 2020, and Cyberpunk Red, Alt Cunningham was thrown into the Net in packages by Spider Murphy during the raid on Arasaka, and one of them may have been taken by a rogue AI, giving it Alt's personality traits.
In Cyberpunk Red, it is hinted heavily that Alt is Angel, the one getting Johnny's body in the Blackdog mission. And the only question I really have is how Arasaka got their hands on Johnny Silverhand's engram. Was it from Samantha Stevens' place? Or was it retrieved from beyond the Blackwall with the help of the 12 children Arasaka had diving beyond it.
The reason I suspect it was from Samantha Stevens' place is that all Johnny's things were taken care of by her, and Adam Smasher got his hands on his gun and car, which were in Samantha's possession. The Malorian could be from Zara, though.
I always felt that a part of alt was in the ai if you pay attention to some dialogue options
This was exactly what rache was warning about
I think we meet what's left of her. She's either been deprived of human interaction and in a constant state or fight of flight, or she's been "absorbed" by an AI.
It could be an evolved version of Alt's engram from fusing with other AI's. What Johnny and V speak with may be the original AI construct with thoughts, memories, ideals, etc of other AIs (pretty much like what's going on between Johnny and V). If Alt did survive by merging with other AI's it would cause an evolution creating a new being and this new being, also having the wisdom and knowledge of other AI's doesn't necessarily read mind, but understands calling it out as an "oversimplification.'
Just a thought.
I'm not gonna be surprised if these rogue AIs can escape whatever server they are. They'll just compress into binary codes and slip through whatever electronics they can attach to.
If you want to really go down the rabbit hole, conspiracy theory style, consider all the instances in the game plot where AIs, or possible AIs, play a part. My thought is that there could be something much larger happening, with different AIs and agendas in play.
I like to think that Alt still the same, Johny know it coz she still trying bitch him saying rogue AI "truth", or atleast he think so. There a conversation where Johny can apologize and Alt saying something like "Be safe", And another thing when Alt in the end can be asked about what to do by V and she saying that Johny can stay in real world. There is some hint by writers, but in the end it can be anything what they want.
There is a small chance that in actuality it IS Alt. If you ask her during the first meeting with Johnny why she cant help despite the fact she created soul killer, she responds saying," the program I created...."
Could be a fib but still...
You do realise that for johny it was more like he when 2 sleep n wake up 50 year later
It's Alts Engram. She's just been in an alien world for 50 years and came back... Alt-ered
Even if it was Alt, in the footage it made it seem like it’s not even the same her anymore. So Alt or not seems like same difference by that alone.
The thing is no engram is the actual person, it's just a copy of their neural pattern and memories simulated as best as the programming can manage. If it's self aware and can learn to reprogram itself, of course it's going to transcend its origins and become something/someone else.
It wouldn't be the Alt of old, as she would have absorbed other AI's and programs to become stronger.
Plus, as she was in the game, she no longer had any emotions so it's logical that she'd want to just get straight to the point without having to rehash old times.
Maybe Alt's Engram existed for quite a while until she was defeated and then used to deceive Johnny and V.
I think you absolutely right. I kinda felt creepy vibes from AI Alt.
I think that if an AI gobbled up one AI and one Alt, then you have two parts AI and one part Alt. If Alt gobbled up two AIs, you get the same thing. Look at what happened when merging Delemains together. I think that the more intelligent you become and the more information you contain, the more you prioritize what works and discard what is a liability. I think this is Alt, but she's just beyond recognition now. Survival as a simply human on earth can change us so drastically from what we are when we have excess. People are great at adapting to survive novel conditions, and I think if anything, the most human part about Alt is the fact that she has adapted and survived for so long by losing who she once was - which is kinda sad.
That said - There isn't enough evidence to tell us whether this is a AI that gobbled Alt, or an Alt that gobbled up too much AI. But we do know there is a cyberwar coming, that AI's are literally attempting to take over earth. Alt may have seemed more human in 2045 and so alien in 2077 because she realized that seeming "human" was a liability and she had to be enough of a threat to any allied AI's so that she would be left alone. Blue Eyes would've straight up said, thanks for working with us if they had orchestrated it, but they didnt. He said they funneled in after us to grab what they could, like scavengers compared to the shark that barged into mikoshi.
The evidence and lore points to this either being Alt or 01. But in all honesty, I think that it doesn't even matter at this point. Who ate who is irrelevant where that much code is contained. Right?
One thing to note btw dunno if u mention it during the video but just in case, if you have a good relationship with Alt as Johnny during the flashbacks, Johnny has the option to apologise to Alt for how it all turned out during one of the endings, Alt then suddenly leaves like it has effected her, i think it is Alt's engram but because she has been in cyberspace for so long with A.I's she has become less human and adapted to her environment (its also why i hate the idea of Johnny or V also going over there)
the AI says itself "i'm using her engramatic data" - this is for me a clear indication that its an AI with her engramatic data and not Alt herself. Also the whole interaction is pretty cold and AI-like. I mean if Alt was really this AI, we could`ve have something that shows a bit of warmth to johnny and stuff. I think the game is pretty obvious about the reality that Alt is gone, but we like to romanticise the possibility that she lives somewhere. "you use Alt because you wish to. its a defence mechanism". It cant be more obvious.
But all in All great, great content from Big Dan to put this theme up to discussion, also waterproof logic and research from Big Dan. You got a new subscriber :)
It sort of strikes me as a cyberspace version of the bit in Westworld where Bernard can't see the service door; Johnny, as an engram and simultaneously as somebody acquainted with Alt sees The AI *as* Alt but in V's perspective the inhumanity is brought to the fore and this theory gains real credence
That is alt Cunningham. If you read the lore and onld books (i think its mentioned in cyberpunk red) but this is alt. After she got soulkilled and locked in a server at arasuka she stole like a couple million from the corporation and started up a company which specifically made clones. One of the clones was of herself, when she tried downloading herself into that clone body she discovered that it was impossible (forgot all the technical stuff but it basically couldn't be done) so she instead fragmented apart of herself and upload that and allowed that cloned alt to wonder free. I think the clone also went on to clone johnny but that may have been retconned later. The alt you see in game is really her but fragmenting herself lost apart of her humanity which if you didn’t know is a huge theme when it comes to Johnny and alts story. There are 3 hour long youtube videos that go over the lore as written so i don't get why people post crackpot theory videos. You can even go ask the creator of cyberpunk on Twitter or reddit and he'll likely give you an answer. No need for all thjs misinformation that just confuses everyone
The amount of red flags the AI gives off as well as straight up tell you it's not Alt would suggest that it's either a rogue AI manipulating V and Johnny for it's own purposes, or it's an engram of Alt that has their humanity so far removed from them that they hardly resemble her anymore. Thing is, it's hard to really say for sure. I do recall one instance in the endgame where Johnny talks to her before breaking into Arasaka Tower again and she displays a hint of a sense of humor (a human trait) that would suggest that perhaps the AI is Alt. There's also the Voodoo Boys encounter where in both instances of either trusting the VDB's or siding with Netwatch, instead of outright killing V she saves them or relocates them to talk, specifically because it recognized Johnny's engram. I doubt it would've let them live otherwise if Alt wasn't at least present. But like I said, the amount of red flags the game gives off when speaking to the AI makes it hard to tell. Almost every encounter with it, feels somewhat hostile. It displays a sense of indifference and coldness to both V and Johnny. Especially if you speak with it as V alone before breaking into Arasaka Tower in the final mission. And if you speak to it as Johnny and state, "Alt's gone", the AI immediately leaves once it sees that Johnny realizes it's not actually talking to Alt.
i'm thinking the same thing !
If you really think about it. Netrunner V has an opportunity to create at least 2 crazy ultimate and expanded upon Blackwall AI. The Mikoshi Alt, the combined Del, whatever the voodoo boys cook up and a lack of Netwatch agents. Hell, even Bartmoss could be out there in a similar state as Alt. The Elite think the final frontier is Space, but runners know that just helps them sleep at night.