They are not without their problems - another tuber has identified an issue when you start a load with a high inrush current it causes the outputs to oscillate which can kill any devices that use a capacitive dropper for thier power supply - ecoflow seemed uninterested in the issue and more interested in finding gullible influencers to push the product. Wrt to the wiring, i’m sure you know that you should create a dedicated sub consumer for your critical loads along with a bypass switch (to bypass the whole battery system in case it goes tits up)
Well that's one system that's completely against reg's......Where is the neutral earth bonding relay and local earth electrode - required for operating in Island mode? From the SHP manual: 'NOTE: Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP' I'm not keen on this system here in the UK - it doesn't work properly with RCBO's/RCD's as can be seen here and is obviously not designed for our market....it is cost prohibitive anyway.
As an addition to this, I can't see how this system could ever be installed and be compliant in the UK without the SHP being redesigned. It requires a neutral earth boding relay - but this relay/contactor MUST be interlocked/mechanically linked to the main contactors that switch over the maintained load from the grid to the battery inverter: _Timing of the operation of the island mode isolator and N-E bond relay should comply with Regulations 431.3 and 537.1.5 of BS 7671. This requires:_ _-The N-E bond relay to be interlocked, or mechanically linked, with the island mode isolator._ _-When moving to island mode, the N-E bond contact is closed immediately after the live conductor contacts of the island mode isolator are opened_ _-When moving to connected mode, the N-E bond contact should be opened immediately before the live conductor contacts of the island mode isolator are closed._ There is no way to do this on this system as the relays that are switching the loads are proprietary and not standard parts that could be modified. You can't even fit an external contactor to try and accommodate this - as the whole system is designed to control individual loads. For it to work according to the regs you would need a main transfer contactor from the inverter/grid that supplies the individual changeover relays and this contactor would need to be interlocked with another for the N-E bonding - which just can't be done on this all in one 'smart' panel. As such this system, as is, can never be installed compliant to the regulations - why they are selling it in the UK without having checked to see if they are even compliant, is disconcerting to say the least!
No Rcd protection when running on battery, no isolation on battery output, no earth stake (island mode). Seems the manufacturer needs to address some issues and regs before this is used in UK.
The installation is now less safe than at the start of the job. This, and the missing 32A breaker shows the importance of planning. The installation docs are online.
My initial thoughts on watching this video (as a retired DNO engineer) - in no particular order - Assuming the DNO supply is TN-C-S or TN-S and an earth connection has been offered and connected, it's an absolute requirement to have a measured earth electrode installed and connected to the MET for any alternative (ie switched standby) or additional (ie interconnected) source of electrical energy. One may have already been installed here before the video but we're not told if this is the case or not. When part of the installation is being fed from the battery, how are the neutrals in the energised circuits referenced to earth? Is there an neutral/earth contactor in the Smart Panel? If there is, does it affect the neutrals on the circuits not designed to be energised by the battery? As you discovered (and as the manufacturer states in small-ish print on their website) the Smart Panel circuits should not be connected downstream of an RCD or RCBO. Despite rearranging the circuits in the dual RCD DB, can you state that final circuits that _should_ be protected by an earth-leakage protection device (according to BS7671) will continue to comply with that requirement? Do the relays in the Smart Panel achieve galvanic separation between the battery and DNO sources or is it a semi-conductor device? How can separation be tested, for example, by checking the IR of the switching device? How can safe isolation be achieved for working on any of the circuits routed via the Smart Panel (other than obviously disconnecting the Delta PRO or other Ecoflow device)? Although the changeover time may seem impressive at 20mS, I can see potential issues with these devices on installations supplied via rural DNO networks with auto-reclosing devices. If I was using one, I would not want it to re-energise any circuits until I was confident the DNO reclose sequence had completed/locked-out (typically within 1 minute). Rapid switching of inductive loads on the installation could be asking for problems caused by over-voltages due to back EMF. Unlikely but still not impossible. ENA ER G99 requires clear labelling on the equipment to the effect that the installation is capable of supply from more than one source of electrical energy. I'm still wondering if this set-up satisfies the requirements of G99 or not. If BS7671 isn't satisfied (earthing of the installation neutral or final circuits missing their earth-leakage protection) then G99 isn't satisfied and neither are the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regs. What are the performance characteristics of the circuit protection devices in the Smart Panel? Are they similar to a Type B MCB, for example? The use of backup generation (in my experience) seldom takes any cognisance of the fact that the alternative source of energy in use may actually be incapable of supplying enough current to operate the protective devices relied upon during a fault. Finally (for now 🙂) there is the question of the cost of these devices. A single Delta PRO retails at £3500 (for only 3.6kWh !!!); a Smart Panel £1700. Eye-wateringly expensive before they're out the cardboard box! Add to that the installation of a measured earth electrode, juggling of circuits in the DB plus testing etc and that is one huge chunk of change! 3.6kWh isn't going to get you very far. Thanks for making the video though.
There is no neutral/earth contactor, i.e., a neutral earth bonding relay in the smart panel as far as I can tell as there is a reference in the manual to this area: ' Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP (Smart Home Panel)' As such, and for the other reasons you stated such as no local earth electrode - this setup does not confirm to the reg's surrounding generators operating as an alternative supply nor the IET code of practice for Electrical Energy Storage Systems, for such equipment operating in island mode.
@@rjkelectrical6086 With no disrespect, that’s the difference between a chartered engineer and an electrician, I’m a chartered engineer too, but I’d always call an electrician to do the real work. 😂
So this was also a demonstration of how easy it is to work on a live CU when you believe it has no source of power. It's important to highlight the fact there are now two separate sources of mains voltage into the one CU.
Like solar, I would have thought there was a requirement for a rotary isolator next to the cu to isolate theback up supply. God knows how you'll do that with there being a feed and supply for each circuit 🤪
@@TeamSimpsonRacing the smart panel has an isolation switch on it, you saw him switch it off. There is also a switch on the battery pack. You can also unplug the battery cable.
When I fitted mine, we had the same issue, we ended up fitting an extra board with non rcd breakers, removed the busbar from the rcbo board and fed the breakers of the new board into the bottom of the rcbos individually, this solved the issue and maintained the rcbo protection
I'm not a qualified sparky just someone who has grown up more or less understanding the issues. As as I watched the video three things were in my mind; what stops inverter feed causing the existing RCBs from popping, where is RCB protection, for the sockets when on inverter during a 'blackout', and what isolates the inverter output neutral from DNO earth - which you bonded across to the main house/DNO earthing. Unless I missed some wiring/relay info it seems that the inverter input and output neutral is also bonded to the 'rest of the house' neutral when in blackout mode and on to the DNO distribution. Switching off the main breaker does not simulate a blackout as it will also disconnect the DNO neutral connection. Seems to me that to get anywhere near to safe compliance there needs to be a dual pole isolator to disconnect the DNO supply fully while on inverter operation (along with sensing to revert when power returns) To me this device seems totally inappropriate, in its current form, for use on an ordinary UK domestic installation - what compliance it is claimed to have would be an interesting question. I was not that impressed by The EcoFlow advice in regards to 'getting it to work' by messing with RCB positions (or even taking them out of circuit). I could think of better ways to connect it but that, as you say, would require a second CU, for the circuits to be protected, and a dual pole changeover arrangement - but it would be safer! Looking forward to JW's observations 😂😂
All excellent points, I’m not an electrician either, and I “illegally” wired my own EPS system as I don’t have wiring regs approval, I am however a chartered electrical engineer, and can’t see how the set up shown in this video is compliant with 17th or 18th edition.
I'm a bit concerned about placing that unit with rather big cooling fans in such a confined space. I'd have a new door made for that space with ventilation slats from top to bottom. With the storm outages that we have in the USA quite a few homes now have backup generation. The neatest solution is to go somewhat large on the backup power source and then have a single main transfer switch that switches everything between utility power and backup power. That way you don't have to touch the existing breaker panel. There are options available to automatically disable high demand circuits if desired. And it often doesn't cost that much more than a medium solution that only backs up some circuits. I used to just rely on a portable generator to keep on the lights, refrigerator, heat and the basement sump pump. It was better than not having any electricity, but after going through a 4-5-day outage I found that I was still roughing it - a lot of food I couldn't cook without an oven, no hot water to clean up, and I couldn't do laundry. Not to mention that when your house has power during an outage you can easily get a few house guests. So, I'd avoid the middle ground - either do the minimum to meet basic needs or spend enough to be fully comfortable.
In order to run the whole house with a main breaker, you would be looking at ~$4500 US for the generac generator & transfer switch plus ~$6500 US for the installation of an 11-14 KW back up system. So yes for $11K US you could fully back up your house with a NG or propane whole house generator. I assume that if you had NG, you would be able to heat your water and run your dryer on your current portable generator. So, if you used this Ecoflow system, you still would not be able to use your electric oven. It is 30 amp max at 240 and your oven would need 50 amps. But the Generac whole house system would do it easily. We have NG for hot water and central furnace so we could run a system like this. Our 3600W inverter generator can run our house too, except for the electric stove. We may change that at some point, but for now we have the camping stove if needed.
I don't want anything wired into the Mains !!!! I have 2 Deep Cycle Lead Acid Batteries and two 200watt Inverters !!! I also have a 600 watt Lithium Generator and Solar Panels !!! But if they go wrong I can take them apart and fix them, or throw them away !!!! I intend to go to bed and sleep during a Blackout !!!! It will only be for four hours max in the Evening !!! All I need is enough power to Run an electric blanket, Electric 12 volt Fan, an electric light and a TV or Radio !!!! A built in System with Thousands of Pounds worth of Batteries will cost a fortune if it goes wrong !!!! And the Batteries may have 1000 cycles, then they will be Useless and will cost a lot of money to Replace !!!!
I bought one 3 months ago here in Ireland to go along with my 2 Pros. I have not had any interest from an electrician in getting it fitted, electricians seem to be too busy and not wanting work here. 2 people have at least come out to look, but when I try and contact them I hear nothing back. So far I have a nice piece of kit that my cat sleeps on
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I am under the impression that any type of back up generator should have an additional TT spike as the grids earth can't be relied on in the event of a blackout. Thats unless the system is already a TT of course
I don't agree with using any part of the electricity distribution network to provide an earth for a backup system if anyone is working on the network they could either remove the connection which is dangerous to them and the homeowner in this situation I would install my own earth and disconnect from the DNO earth
2 года назад+8
@@haldo691 on a Victron MultiPlus this is basically how it is designed. Moreover, when the AC IN port is unpowered and the inverter feeds the installation (from a battery), there is an integrated ground relay connecting the AC OUT neutral with the earth.
@@TheYohtube neutral should be coming from the inverter (this is not usa split phase) but I have seen some inverters that for some reason split the half the ac wave between both live and neutral witch can result in an fried inverter when neutral is connected to ground What I don't get in this setup he did here is how is the neutral disconnected from Grid (flipping the 100A isolator isn't the same as when grid loses live) very likey the inverter will cut off the moment grid loses live or destroy the inverter because grid island protection isn't installed He could test this by pulling the live leg out but leaving the neutral grid leg in and see what happens or simple muti meter test and check for live between N>E and L>E (if it reports 120v then it's a junk half split ac wave inverter) MultiPlus 2000VA does this all in one This video has so many questions unsure why you would leave an uncertified install like this in Operation
Love how he goes on about 32A breakers from the start. Realises he doesn’t have them so justifies how a 16A breaker “doesn’t matter in this situation”. Just drive and get a 32A breaker and offer what you claim to customers.
I thought it was the cables current flow that was the main factor ? If the cable is rated for 32A flow then the breaker is allowed to be lower as therefore the cable will never be overheated ?
@@adrianlynch9435 if he’s planned 32A too allow battery to charge at 7KW then putting it to 16A at 3.6kw, me as a customer would expect a 32A supply so I could charge in 30 mins not an hour… that’s like offering an EV charger and supplying them with a 16A instead of 32!
@@mattwhitley9315 I'm pretty sure he has returned to site & fitted the 32's. It was clear that having 32's wasn't critical at that point & downing tools & potentially wasting an hour or 2 when your mid flow of an install doesn't make sense & as you could see things went sideways as it was with the rcd situation. Made perfect sense what he did.
@@mattwhitley9315 I'm in agreement with Craig Butler below that I am sure they have gone back and replaced the 16A for a 32A MCB.. The purpose of my comment was that it is the cable current (max current that keeps the cable below the insulation melt temp. For normal twin and earth this is 70 deg C) that limits the MCB current rating. By downgrading the max current flow in the settings the customer gets a working system that will not trip the MCB until they come back and replace the 16A MCB. My opinion is that this was configured this way so there was a working system. Unless you were on very limited time of day tarrif then taking a bit longer to charge wouldn't really matter and if this is for power cuts only then a few days wouldn't be a massive issue - again in my opinion.
I am a UK electical engineer, I do think the whole concept and video is very dangerous to promote without first understanding product limitations and secondly understanding how split load C.U. are actually configured to give RCD grouped protection when feed thro the DNO metering and cut out (PME) . So the interconnections were completed in the fashion that seems to make basic sense but then when the whole system is switched on, the dual RCD's both switch off immediately in the existing C.U. which frankly isnt surprising to me as 1. the RCD is upstream of the back up supply from the ECOFLOW and 2. the MCB's will be actually isolated by the ECOFLOW individual relay device which is also a electronically controlled circuit protective device (MCB) but remotely controllable as opposed to manual switching MCB. So in a power outage situation neither the MCB or the RCD is actually doing anthing whist the mains supply is OFF or unavailable due to power outage. The video shows the system with the DNO supply live and then the Eco-flow battery system being switched into inverter mode. Thus the SLIT MODE RCD C.U. sees the neutrals from each side of the split board causing an imbalanced coil current load leading to RCD tripping out as it should. The problem with the concept and design is it would never give RCD protection, it would never give isolation from the PME supply thus causing live conductors to be exposed to another source of electricity which could be back feeding to the MAINs sub transformer network giving potentials for DNO operators attending sub stations to be exposed to voltages which would normally not exists on tripped outgoing terminals in the substation MCCB's. WARNING SIGNS ABOUT ALL SUPPLIES MUST BE ISOLATED BEFORE OPENING PANELS ETC PLUS Interlocked change over contractors and rotary isolators would be a requirement in the UK just for basic isolation if anyone needs to isolate power for any reason including testing and inspection or work on out going circuits.
Jordan, both RCDs tripped because both were seeing an imbalance. You had 2 circuits on the right-side RCD consuming current but the panel neutral is on the left-side RCD's neutral bar. This creates the same current imbalance in both of them when it switches over. The backup battery would have to switch over faster than the RCDs can react to avoid tripping them, and 20ms isn't anywhere near quick enough.
I purchased an ecoflow delta max last year and used it to power my 2 fridge freezers while I was having a new distribution box fitted. In all I ran the ecoflow for four hours and only used 15 percent of the battery plus used a microwave, kettle and toaster. Gives peace of mind that hundreds of pounds of cold and frozen food do not get spoiled.
But you could run a 240 house on your American breaker box, if you wanted. Go with electric heat, and you too would be using the 240 options in your panel.
@@gibblespascack1418 yes I have electric heat. I also had a 25 hour power outage on December 23. And no water because we’re on a shared well. as well as being one of the last 100 customers still without power in the county that they took their time to restore. A storage heater would’ve been really nice, We don’t have that around here. Well yes the water heater, the baseboard heaters, stove, air conditioner, dryer and now washing machine are 240v so that leaves lighting and general usage appliances, TV, etc.
@@imark7777777 I lived for 10 years in Rouses Point NY. The village had contracted with Hydro Canada at 2 cents/kw, so everything was electric. When Ice storm 1998 hit(Jan 1998), there are very few generators that could power even a small electric house in that area. Many of us had to immediately switch to Kerosun heaters to stay warm. Never forgot that. Purchased a Generac xl5500 for electricity, kept the kerosun heater, have a camp stove for cooking, 20 gal of kero, 27 gal of gas, 20 lb of propane just in case, if this happens again. About every 5 years we are without power for a week. This prep means that we don't have to be concerned. If I was to do it over again, I would get a larger Generac Unit and 200 gal of propane(if we did not have access to Natural Gas).
Questions/thoughts on this really interesting video: 1) Since this is wired in after the MCBs, what circuit protection is there when the system is running from the battery? - it looks like there is none and you'd really need a second consumer unit with MCBs to ensure there is MCB protection if running on battery. I wonder if this might help with the RCD situation, i.e. have the RCDs in the second consumer unit which would be fitted downstream of the smart panel and not have an RCD in the upstream consumer unit. 2) If someone turns off an MCB thinking they have isolated a circuit, it can presumably still be powered by the battery - is this a case of hoping the person switching off the MCB also knows to turn off the battery or is there some other protection?
What about back feeding the grid, is there any isolation switch to stop back feeding to the grid if power is cut from broken equipment upstream and the lineman getting zapped? For this reason it’s not allowed to do solar in automatic island mode in Sweden yet.
Yes you are not allowed to back feed the grid here in the UK, I'm not clear from this video what is in place to prevent this, in this setup. But I might have missed it. Shouldn't there be a generator changover switch or grid isoloator? Hopefully people that know more than me will comment.
It could be an issue with the neutrals causing the RCDs to trip, there only looks to be two neutrals for the whole device which provide the neutral to the unit when charging and the neutral back to the board when on backup. I agree it isn’t really suited to our UK wiring.
Is 100% a unbalance on neutral at the first attempt and after wen is working we see only a light circuit what about 2 load in different circuit?? MORE IMPORTANT A RCD TEST WEN BATTERY ARE IN USE ???? Is anyone done a ms trip test
@@davidegarga the RCD in the board which covers the battery backed circuits looks to be upstream of the battery backup system. If so it won’t provide adequate protection - if the RCD trips the battery will kick in and restore power to the circuit.
I'm in IT, and I'm kinda worried about the light flicker on the switchover, as I have replaced many expensive IT components that died during power surges caused by similar events. What happens if you are running with an overload when the switch occurs? I assume it fails somehow? Hopefully gracefully.
If you plug a light into a line-interactive or standby UPS you'll see the same thing happen - it takes about one AC cycle for the inverter to kick in and the relays to switch over from grid to inverter. Never had anything fail due to UPS switchover
@@gwyneddtobij1247 I thought a UPS essentially ran the power outlets via the battery, so they're no switchover time. Not 100% but glad I have one for my work PC, and it does indeed protect it properly as occasionally test by switching off the wall power.
@@MrFish1968 Your correct with "online" UPS systems bug these are £££££££ and you'll be changing the battery's alot. 99% of UPS systems out there switch over like this, :)
27 grand just for the equipment to get through 3 hour blackout time slots seems a bit excessive but there is the potential for the time slots to increase if the national grid requires it. I hope the owners think of solar too. For those on a budget you can get 2.4k Wh for £999 but with 1000w inverter in the EB 240 but I think that sale ends 28th December. For roughly the same price you can get an Echoflow Delta with a more powerful inverter but at around half of the battery capacity of the EB 240. There's a lot of options for mid-range too or to build your own. I think it's something people should think about but if not, get the candles out and enjoy the disconnect from the tech we've grown so used too.
Interesting video, not sure how it can be labeled an "Amazing system", "that doesn't work in UK"! Sometimes even with paid content you need to think about reputational risk and this wasn't your finest day IMHO... I can't help but think if it were me, upon realizing it didn't really work without what you called "cowboy hour" I would I insisted it be decomissioned and returned as not fit for purpose.
It would be neglible, especially under typical domestic loads. In theory you are correct but you just wouldn't experience any tanglible derating in this situation. It like when people think you'll see eddy currents on a single-phase 100A supply. You just won't.
Well that's one system that's completely against reg's......Where is the neutral earth bonding relay, required for operating in Island mode? From the SHP manual: 'NOTE: Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP' I'm not keen on this system here in the UK - doesn't work properly with RCBO's/RCD has described, obviously not designed for our market....and is cost prohibitive anyway.
Bit confused here, but what I think this means is that there is no MCB or RCD/RCBO protection for the backed up circuits when they are on battery as the battery is inserted by the ecoflow box after the consumer unit, I understand there’s a backup fuse, but that’s a poor replacement for a modern consumer unit. Also agree with the comments on earthing. That said I’d say with different wiring this would be fine, just not happy with it as connected.
Blimey, lots of comments, from what seems very qualified people.Think your going to have to do follow up video. Get the ECOFLOW people on the video -- not just their PR but seriously qualified folks to explain whats going on.. Installing this /like this /has opened a can of worms -- the comments testify to this... Glad your ok. stay safe.
Nice. Out of my range at about £6k though! I got a Jakery 240 Watt Hour - I did a test and vid on it. It will run my combi boiler for about 2-3 hours. Power banks for the phone. About £250. Working fireplace. Fixed up an old site generator too.
I think you should have used larger diameter conduit to allow the required cooling space as per code, unless the wiring is oversized to compensate so you can derate the amperage capacity.
@@benjaminvivar7855 Lets just say the USA is not the holder of the best electrical standard. Heat is an issue with every electrical device, because of physics. Please read BS 7671 to understand what the standard is for this installation (United Kingdom). What Rob was referring to was de-rating factor where containment is used.
The best part in the US, is the fact you have to have clearance around the load center panel (CU), so you can't put them in cabinets in the kitchen or under stairs etc. Most of the time they are in the walls out in the open, in the basement, or for those without basements in the garage. However they are out in the open so most of the time you can just stand there and access them at shoulder height or lower. Most newer homes they are all flush mount as well. This can cause issues like you adding kopex here, you can't do that very easy when they are behind the sheet-rock. So there are some logistics that make things tougher for sure as most will be in wall for cable runs for example adding a new circuit. One set of problems traded for another set of problems. 🤠👍
I was going to say everything that you said plus, I can't believe the gas meter is that close to the electric panel. Where I am, a gas meter or propane tank has to be 5 or 10 feet away from an ignition source. The spacing is based on the fuel, propane or natural gas and is the ignition source above, below or beside the gas or propane source.
Hey, thanks for this great review. I am using it with full options. So 20kwh and with 3200w of solar panels. On sunny days i can run my house only with this system. On cloudy days the battery last up to one day in normal usage. So only in winter and in rain periods I need to charge it. Great invention to be independent. Also I can charge it with the smart generator with petrol
I'm not an electrician but some thoughts.. A device like the Ecoflow will have lots of sensitive electronics in it for the switching, so wouldn't the install really really benefit from a CU with SPDs? The Ecoflow really should have some large isolation warning stickers on it to prevent the batteries feeding back into the CU whilst it is being worked on, as you found! I dunno, but some elements of this just don't feel like they're very.. compliant?
We Campervaners have being useing and testing these systems for a while. For off grid camping I use an Allpowers Monster X 2000w output and 3300w max surge output solar generator in my camper can use Air fryer for 10 days without any problems. You may need a 12v electrician with your electrician.
Im a real fan of your channel, and I think this is a mistake. An isolation switch after the meter , mains power and battery power into a transfer switch (manual interlock or automatic such as Solax EPS or Vectron) and the output goes to the consumer unit. All the protections of the consumer unit maintained. Please follow up and explain why you would not do it that way.
Interesting idea from ecoflow although it seems like they may need to revise the design somewhat for UK use. Not a fan that the system is bypassing RCD protection...
So when the circuit is running from the battery the only protection you have is in the fuse inside the cartridge in the smart panel rather than the RCD in the distribution board. Is that compliant?
It needs another board after the panel to provide protection which would be a mess
2 года назад+5
I'm very surprised the regulations don't enforce the installation of a red main switch on the battery feed that can clearly be switched off to remove any source of 230 V power in the consumer unit ! Is there at least the "Warning : multiple power sources in this panel" sticker on the CU ?
Neutral bonding / switching is the problem with the RCBOs. You can not put a generator after (upstream) an RCD device. What I found working, is a whole house backup with a transfer switch, where the RCD / RCBO is always downstream after grid or backup inverter. Or, you need individual RCDs after the ingestion point, where the Wagos went.
Yes replace rcbos in main board for mcbs for desired circuits then install new board above existing board with rcbos for each circuit. Not sure about neutral reference for the smart change over unit device, must be the charging circuit?
A bit late response but here it is. If I'm not mistaken then ideal solution would have been to install additional consumer unit, one that is before smart panel (or upstream) and another that is after smart panel (downstream) that is on battery back up. This way you should be able to maintain the RCD in all cases. Personally I have Deye hybrid inverter at home (PV + battery) that is installed similarly or essentially the same way whilst all my RCDs are still functioning as required. A bit intrusive installation that requires additional effort in time and materials but end result is very good: faster takeover times, you can choose what has battery back up and what does not, configurations and etc.
Not an electrician just love this stuff as educational but surely the black return cables from the EcoFlow are still line conductors and as such surely should have as a minimum brown sleeving fitted where they’re connected to the red ring wires in the co diner unit as black is the old colour code for Neutral wiring? Indeed ideally wouldn’t it be better if the plugs in the EcoFlow are rewire-able to replace the black cables with brown conductors so they fully match UK wiring regs not US! Might be nice then to label the return conductors as such.
Don’t use American gear in the UK as it won’t have been designed with UK requirements like RCD protection in mind! Maybe it’s time that kit designed with UK regs in mind should have a label so you know it’s designed with our regs compliance in mind!
I think you will find the RCD tripped because the ecoflow has a high frequency inverter in it and they do not have galvanic isolation so would trip RCDs also check the earth bonding situation as the neutral and earth are some times linked in the inverters so might need a new earth rod out side
2 года назад+2
When the CU is running on the battery back-up system, does the neutral from the inverter get connected to the earth ?
What is the panic and hysteria with all the blackouts? So many people managed to survive blackouts during the late 1970's and early 80's when various Unions went on strike. We didn't panic, just lit a candle and talked to each other, read a book by torchlight or got sent to bed The black wires connected to the red ones in the board should also be sleeved red It's a crap product not designed for the UK market given the issues with RCD's especially. What's the life-cycle of the product? How much does it cost to run the control panel and keep the batteries charged?
Apologies, I’m not an electrician but very avid viewer and IT Engineer but what part of this installation is protecting current go back out to the street when there’s a local power outage and your energy supplier is working on the electrics in the street. Amazing content love the solution I just remember when solar panels are installed and you have an off grid solution. You’re supposed to have a cut-off device in the event of a local power outage that prevents battery back ups pushing to 240 V back into the street. Unless I’m wrong, interested in your answer.
I am in the US...I use triple-pole double-throw relays for my power switching. It makes all 3 connections [L-N-E(G)] switch at the same time. Each set of relays...3 sets in total...have their own separate Earth (Ground) connections to individual Earth (Ground) rods. This might solve the problem like what you are facing...not sure if it would be up to code in the UK but if it is you can try this setup.
I have used panels in the UK and USA. USA panels are generally larger than the UK, making wiring easier even though the wires in the USA is thicker being only 120 volts. When it comes to backup systems I hate the ones that control selective circuits, and instead prefer full auto transfer from the mains supply, or at least ones that back feed into the panel which generally limited to 50 amps, but those require an interlock on the panel to stop one from electrocuting line workers.
Nick bundy made a comment In One of his videos about a consumer unit under the stairs and I believe it’s now not recommended for new installs (ok for existing installs though), but sticking a ton of lithium ion batteries under there would be a hell of a lot more worrying to me than my consumer unit. Understand about having the relays and fuses in the unit, but I think I would be happier with the feed going in to the whole consumer unit, not a sparky so wouldn’t know if this is correct but given Jordan got a belt it seems a little worrying. My guess is that he’ll go back and tidy up the loose ends there as Artisan take pride in their work. Also how would you then do an EICR would you test from the connection at the consumer unit to the UPS board or at the cables coming of the ring main / radials? Am I right in saying that the power comes out of the MCBs into the UPS and then back out again in which case the UPS is part of the circuit. All seems a little up in the air for me. Still nice video Jordan.
Wow. Thank you. I have been asking EcoFlow for months about using these in the UK. I must have been asking the wrong person. (witch is odd really, as a YT influencer, who, similar to yourself we have over 163K subscribers. You'd think they would have been keen to chat to me) We have also been looking at the BLUETTI AC500, do you know if we can use them here in the UK (mind you, we have missed out on their cheap IndieGoGo price) As they are still talking about rolling blackouts, we got a letter just the other day. I ended up buying a River 2 MAX and a "Epoch Marine 100ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery" to extend it. So that I could keep our combi Boiler, fridge and some lights on. Plus we have an older home, still got wire fuses (no RCDs). And we keep talking about moving. We like the sound of charging on Off Peak rates, and maybe even a couple of 400w solar panels on the shed to augment the charging. So it would be nice to have something that we could ‘take with us’ if we moved.
All through that I was saying to myself will it have RCD protection for the output circuits with the way you are wiring the battery backup between the CU MCBs and the final circuits and won't that then contravene regs for RCD protection of users and wiring? Even if the CU RCDs were to trip won't the battery backup now simply keep electrocutng the customer? Also flipping the CU isolation switch isn't the same as a power cut where the grid goes down but remains connected - it wasn't clear if your final wiring solution avoids the possibility of back feeding the grid. The point has been made about a TT earth for when the TNCS cable is severed. Also curious about the maximum load from the battery?
The unit had some issues with RCD upstream tripping. What if there would be an actual earth lickage (let's say a person touched live wire), so the RCD would trip and at the same time cut off the power to the unit, so it would switch to battery back-up and keep shocking that person? I hope it makes sense. Can someone verify that for me?
Here’s a question: if a circuit’s breaker was off in the CU but then the whole incoming power tripped, would the eco flow supply power to that circuit? Does it have any way of knowing what should or shouldn’t be on other than the relays?
@@adammachin because the circuit breaker only feeds into the EcoFlow. Power out from the ecoflow is just straight into the circuit without any protection other than a fuse. I would love to test this out because I reckon it would live up a previously dead circuit just by having a powercut
@@adammachin no not at all, I think that’s how it’s set up in the video and it’s a serious concern in addition to the no-RCD/proper earth etc mentioned elsewhere
The RCD is tripping because you're sharing a neutral with the grid and some current is leaking that way instead of back to the ecoflow. It's the problem when your relays only swap the live. It's why you either need a 2-pole relay to swap hot/neutral or you need to create a neutral that is isolated from the grid and feed your backup panel with that (e.g. using a centre tapped transformer when you have 2 out of phase hots coming in). I learned this the hard way when I had a GFI equipped inverter feeding hot only swapped circuits. There's really no "easy" way around this short of just moving the backed up circuits to their own panel and isolate the grid neutral when the inverter is on.
I know that victron have UPS inverters that'll sit between the meter and the consumer unit. Less control over what circuits you can power in the event of a power cut but would be an easier install + they are compatible with a few house battery brands. They also have versions that work as a solar inverter as well so it's a good future proofing route if the customer wants solar in the long run. I may be biased here because they sponsored a battery charger for a LiFePO4 battery I built for my mobility scooter (through the off-grid garage youtube channel). They seem like a good company.
Wow, I wouldn’t have that in my house. I have a solar inverter with batteries and an emergency power outlet. My EPS is wired into a new and extra consumer unit, which has its own earth via an earth spike, it also has RCD and MCB, which then runs to extra sockets and lights in the home as an emergency network. No sign of an effective earth in the set up shown in this video, walking out asking if the RCD will work whilst on battery is below your usual standard of care.
So for £6k+ and can run the house for maybe 4 hours in the event of a power cut! Then when it does it's own thing I have to become a cross between an electrical engineer and an IT systems geek - it can be challenge sometimes to get the sky box to re-boot. I bought a £250 2.2kwh generator and paid an electrician to install a change over switch - now the hardest part is pulling the starter cord!
If the unit itself (battery box or the smart panel) has RCD protection inside, then the circuits should still be protected. Surely it has RCD protection internally, hence the issue you were encountering?
I come at this from a different angle to most commenters to this video, who are quite rightly focussing on the electrical side and safety etc. I am someone who’s constantly seeking ways and means to utilise solar and also off peak power, to manage energy costs. In my own home, I have invested in solar, tesla powerwall, air to water heatpump and air to air heatpump for air conditioning. I have an EV and so also have a myenergi system Eddi for hot water and Zappi for EV charging when there’s spare solar this set up works brilliantly and my total energy bill including heating/cooling and EV charging has been around £700 for last year - even with sky high energy tariffs. I also have a static caravan and what I would like to do is replicate much of my home system using the EcoFlow Delta Pro… This video is the first I’ve found in the UK that shows how you COULD insert the Dela Pro between the grid and the property to manage input feeds i.e. grid, solar or even generator and output feeds i.e. the caravan or indeed charging the EV. While this isn’t yet a full robust solution, it does take us most of the way… EcoFlow are pushing the boundaries wanting to go beyond simply delivering an off grid solar generator, to a fully integrated solution and I commend them for this. I look forward to further videos on this subject and if you guys at Artisan Electrics, want to use my Caravan in Wales as a guinea pig install for and “off grid” and grid tied integration I’d be up for that!
So interesting how installations and regulations are different across the world, i'm from Canada. Much different here. I love the channel and seeing how electrical varies! Thank you for the awesome content
In theory what is stopping you feeding the circuits supplied by the ecoflow with a passthrough connection in the board supplied directly from the main switch. Then having the outgoing ways feeding into RCBO's and the circuits still wired into the outgoing side of the RCBO's. That would comply with the required protections for the circuits but. Not so sure how I feel about having a semi-island mode where it's shoving current down the suppliers PME instead of cutting the incoming earth off. As the neutrals are still going to be in any case returning from the circuit, into the rcbo, into the neutral bar and down the suppliers cable + two neutrals back to the Ecoflow. Nice show case but seems overly dangerous for the UK and doesn't seem to adhere to our regulations.
I was told that solar panel and battery output must shut down if grid power fails, to avoid putting power into grid wiring that could electrocute an engineer responding to an outage. That being the case, does your setup comply with that requirement? (Maybe I missed that in the video.)
I don't know whose brand this hurts the most when a manufacturer sends product to every you tuber going. The youtuber or the manufacturer. Honestly makes me actively look for alternatives.
The problem is that RUclips pays out so much less than they did in the past, meaning that creators need to look for other sources of income… so don’t be so hard on them. Watch these sponsored reviews if you want (or just skip) and read between lines in what they say.
@@av_oid No problem with paid promotion but it the extreme level of supply to creators that devalues the product and those creators who promote it. I wasn't aware I was trying to be harsh to them though
55 years experience here. Worked on quite early systems right up to modern day stuff. Q, is the Battery back up providing a CPC path to Neutral.? for RCD / RCBO to operate normally, but in this case reverse.? (Volts on the Neutral)?? Q, is it possible that this isolation (or lack of) is the cause of the tripping (in reverse).? a balancing issue.? Remember, the inverter Neutral might not be providing a low resistance bond to the CPC Earth potential. Causing the RCD / RCBO to wrongly detect.? Its all new, and needs some work. I would have thought a similar idea to the automatic change overs to Batteries had to be covered in the Solar panel industry, this also involves an inverter, that doesn't naturally have its Neutral bonded to the CPC/ Earth either.!? Unless you provide it. I have an old UPS here, which obviously does not power the house, only what ever is plugged into it. No mixing involved. Ahh the simple days are calling.
The isolation giving me thought and concern. If someone not familiar with a battery system starts working on say a socket circuit that has battery backup. They isolate the one circuit in consumer unit. Circuit then tests dead. If a power cut occurs the circuit then becomes live. With my very limit, none, knowledge of this battery system it needs to feed in before the isolator. Or some way that ensures the battery has been disconnected, unplugged before work in consumer unit or its circuits is carried out
I could see so many dangerous issues with this, but I didn't see that one and yes its a BIG issue. Someone DIY-er or home owner could just turn off the circuit breaker to change a fitting but it will still be live 😳
@@TeamSimpsonRacing It really is important that a sticker be placed on the main circuit breaker to turn off the ecoflow system. I have these units but no warning sticker was provided... and it really should be. (I'm a Brit but living in the USA for 20 years so my system is installed here in the USA. I made my own sticker (!) )
Jordan, have you heard of Photonic Induction’s RUclips channel? It seems he’s stopped quite a few years ago, but he built his own back up power supply using what looked like a couple of car batteries, a dc to ac inverter that gave a pure sine wave, and this must have been at least ten years ago, but looked quite effective and also fairly simple. I wish he was still on RUclips because, I’m sure he could come up with some brilliant designs that people could make themselves and probably not too expensive. In fact you and your staff and Possibly Oval renewables, could develop kits, that allow people to make their own power saving kits. I’d love to see if anyone could make small wind generators or even hydro generators. I just feel, it will get to the point where it will be worth while making your own things just to save a little bit of money and if you save enough expanding more.
I bought 4x 12V 130AH AGM Leisure Batteries for £80 each off Ebay, A 1500W Pure Sine-Wave Inverter and all of the H/Duty Battery Cables, 10mm Ring Crimps, Midi Fuses, Battery Clamps etc all for just under £500. I suspect it will power basic appliances such as TV, Router, Heating Pump, Fridge Freezer for a longer period than these portable units. I think Photonic Induction's set up had a huge capacity and may have used either Milk Float Batteries or some kind of ex-military batteries or something similar, and as well as for back up purposes he used his set up to utilise the cost of E7 Off peak Electricity by charging the batteries with cheap rate Electricity and then consuming the stored energy during the day when E7 was more expensive.
I can’t believe a quality company like yours doesn’t bench test new equipment like this first! Effectively you are using a customer as a Guinea pig and putting them at potential risk shocking practice
An experienced electrician like Artisan is more than qualified in my opinion Do you know how many products are in the market It’s unrealistic to have experience in all products.🤓
1) it's a sponsored video, the customer likely got this for free or for a massive discount compliments of Ecoflow 2) it's possibly not a 'customer' but a member of staff, or friend.
Yes. In the U.K. any switched alternative source (like this Ecoflow or a petrol generator etc) or an interconnected source (like solar PV plus a battery or even just a battery plus inverter) has to have an independent, measured earth electrode connected to the main earth terminal of the installation that is to be energised. It cannot be assumed that the DNO network is in any way intact during an outage.
A very interesting video on UK electrical systems, personally I prefer to keep things simple and have a separate circuit of power backup outlets for important units. It done manually but it works.
Yeah, running a single backup plug to main rooms … which avoids guests or kids switching on heaters or unnecessary appliances and draining battery. I’m in Africa with daily power blackouts - so, we opted to wire everything into our backup systems (incl geyser/boiler), and manually manage it. We have a guest apartment/house - and that is wired as you say, just lights, TV/internet and 1 plug in the kitchenette - so, effectively disables the entire kitchen and scullery - except for a single plug, during blackout periods
@@JDAfrica yes I have read about the constant power outages in SA, it doesn’t look like it’s going to get fixed anytime soon. Best to have a system that stores energy while you have electricity, then use the stored energy.
We usually have breaker boxes in wall at standing height in our country, it is requirement for easy access. Also we have indicator lights for any active power source, the ecoflow relay unit shuld have its own earth, also intrusion detection switch in main consumer unit may be great to switch ecoflow off. The relay board could have RCD functionality if it can measure current, but is it implemented?
Not a spark but changing RCD’s RCBO’s for MCB’s is backwards when we are looking at AFDD’s now! The better way would be if the unit could have supported 100A and run the grid through that and then to the consumer unit as just like tails to the mains switch on the consumer unit to backup the entire board. Bad points with this setup it doesn’t support Solar, so your reliant on grid charging and off peak charging and a small battery like that is going to be dead in no time, then your drawing peak power which defeats the point of the off peak grid plan, and for just backup power it’s not worth the money that that cost, Proprietary change cable for the battery meaning he has to be close to that unit . But just my two cents no RCD/RCBO protection sounds like a bad idea from someone who’s not a sparky.
Shoulda bench tested this, not compliant with UK regs / and the installation was a little bodged, beginning with the naff flexible conduit rammed full of conductors/ then filling the CU with wago's / then ramming an earth into the same conduit / clearly too excited over the kit to consider the installation whatsoever. Take a satisfactory install and introduce C2's at best...
I have told the uk Ecoflow page and main Ecoflow page it must be RCBO board 1 - not enough room in that existing board 2- conduit to small 3-always use 32 amp feeds in as that’s what it’s designed for 4- circuits in must be standard circuit breakers but all that said I always smile as you don’t edit when you make a mistake 😂 oh and always use all circuits as client will eventually use all circuits. Main thing is your get loads of views and make more people aware of this fantastic bit of kit that is ideal for exist FIT covered solar so you don’t effect Fit payments but you store all that free energy instead of sending it to the grid.
Coming from a hospital environment where megawatt UPS and standby generation are the norm, most electrical breakers have lists of whet they supply AND where that power comes from
that solution is already available using victron equipment that supplies 50a in the event of a grid failure,if 2 inverters are wired together you get 100a max load, this system is featured on a uk yt channel
Not obvious at first but you can see how feeding the circuits from both sides on a split load board would cause a neutral and line imbalance and trip the rcd's if the neutrals are still split into different neutral bars.
Presumably this could be used to keep a grid tied solar inverter powered up, thereby running the house load from the solar batteries at night/solar panels during the day?
Even that can become problematic as the solar always needs somewhere for excess generation to go, it's why with the Tesla System, the unit once charged to 100% will disconnect the solar and then run down again to 80% battery before returning to allowing solar generation again.
@@adammachin Surely it is no different to having the inverter set to not export? the inverter would ramp down the panel outputs when there is insufficient load from the house or batteries?
I have one of these tried to hook it up. All I get is area codes. It constantly beeps 3 times Batteries do not communicate with the panel.. I have had to call echo flow 4 times now. Still haven't resolved the issue in 4 weeks.
I thought it was weird when mentioning replacing the outgoing lines.... Why does this sort of device exist in this form? Why not have it so that it supplies after main isolator but before c.u.?
Thanks for the vid and all of the hard work you put into this. The Eco systems are really good back up et You illustrated the frustration that can follow an install such as this when that install is probably a test AND the end results hitherto / prior to your install; an 'unknown quantity'. The changeover in UK regulations re electrical installations / household et saw some radical changes re ECBs / RCDs et configuration and installations. We have to remember what those 'circuit breakers' safety wise are there for AND for those in the USA if you are interested DO read up or view YT et which will help educate on OUR reasons in the UK for having those requirements. As said I appreciate your AND the householders frustrations when problems arise from such installations * UK et HOWEVER we must not be side tracked by ignoring the end benefits that a backup system provides. I look forward to seeing future work arounds and updates. 👍
This needs a new CB primary side supply consumer unit installed and the existing RCBO consumer unit promoted to secondary, connected after the battery. Having all supplies in the same board is frankly scary, and I would stick hazard labels all over the installation as de-energising circuits needs care for the unwary. Also, companies that make UPS systems have been around for a while, and some may have some products more suited to UK installation. How long has this company been going. What is the prospects of long term support? As usual, great video making. Worth expanding the point of charging off peak, and using it off-grid power for peak use. And also charge from solar. Wish I could afford to do this. The next power cut, will be just a mobile phone for light/entertainment.
Like others, I would really like to know the proper outcome of this! I am not an electrician, but I think the way I would do it would be to have all the circuits that feed into the EcoFolw panel be MCB's only, so no RCD in the main CU for these, then have the outputs from the EcoFlow panel feed another CU with RCBO's for each circuit (so no main switch in that panel), which also has an earth rod, as the suppliers earth cant be relied on. You then keep all the RCD protection no matter what is powering the installation, the main CU will only be fed from one supply, and the secondary CU would need warnings that is is powered from multiple sources, with details of what to isolate to make it safe to open
I don't understand how the battery provides a Neutral when powering the home? The only Neutral (blue) cables I saw running into the switcher were part of the battery charging mechanism. I've seen in American homes that the Neutral is often bonded directly to the Earth bar in the fuse box itself, does this system use the two Earth conductors to provide the Neutral and assume they are bonded to the Neutral bar either in the fuse box or at the TNCS supply head?
Interesting. I thought the Powerwall was unique in having a gateway device which physically disconnects the house from the grid in the event of a powercut to protect grid workers from potential shocks and therefore comply with regs? Our solar+battery all switches off if the grid is lost...
I'm in the USA, but here EcoFlow tell me that the control panel will not feed back into the grid when there is a power failure (grid down). I have to assume that these units would not be allowed in the UK if this were not the case there also. They would not be legal here, either - but they are, so... I'm not an electrician but I read somewhere that the control panel senses voltage from the grid and when absent cannot send power to it (something like that). These units would not be legal in the USA if there was no back feed protection.
Come on, this video is really not a good reflection on ArtisanElectrics. The constant enthusiasm about the system whilst not sufficiently explaining its pitfalls (particularly within the environment of UK electrical installations, the core of your channel and business) seems a bit dubious. You're displaying not great behaviour, as a RUclipsr, around what is a likely non-compliant product. The video is not balanced at all and is below what I expect from this channel. Also, is this sponsored or not?
When On battery power what relationship is there between neutral and earth on the ring sockets? Would a socket tester pass the basic correct wiring test? Would it trip on an RCD test? Are the lines in one conduit between the two panels with the neutrals in the other?
How awesome is this bit of kit from EcoFlow?
They are not without their problems - another tuber has identified an issue when you start a load with a high inrush current it causes the outputs to oscillate which can kill any devices that use a capacitive dropper for thier power supply - ecoflow seemed uninterested in the issue and more interested in finding gullible influencers to push the product.
Wrt to the wiring, i’m sure you know that you should create a dedicated sub consumer for your critical loads along with a bypass switch (to bypass the whole battery system in case it goes tits up)
check the bluetti home backup systems, like ac300+b300 - will work great with differentials in the board
Well that's one system that's completely against reg's......Where is the neutral earth bonding relay and local earth electrode - required for operating in Island mode?
From the SHP manual: 'NOTE: Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP'
I'm not keen on this system here in the UK - it doesn't work properly with RCBO's/RCD's as can be seen here and is obviously not designed for our market....it is cost prohibitive anyway.
In answer to your question - not very it seems.
As an addition to this, I can't see how this system could ever be installed and be compliant in the UK without the SHP being redesigned.
It requires a neutral earth boding relay - but this relay/contactor MUST be interlocked/mechanically linked to the main contactors that switch over the maintained load from the grid to the battery inverter:
_Timing of the operation of the island mode isolator and N-E bond relay should comply with Regulations 431.3 and 537.1.5 of BS 7671. This requires:_
_-The N-E bond relay to be interlocked, or mechanically linked, with the island mode isolator._
_-When moving to island mode, the N-E bond contact is closed immediately after the live conductor contacts of the island mode isolator are opened_
_-When moving to connected mode, the N-E bond contact should be opened immediately before the live conductor contacts of the island mode isolator are closed._
There is no way to do this on this system as the relays that are switching the loads are proprietary and not standard parts that could be modified. You can't even fit an external contactor to try and accommodate this - as the whole system is designed to control individual loads. For it to work according to the regs you would need a main transfer contactor from the inverter/grid that supplies the individual changeover relays and this contactor would need to be interlocked with another for the N-E bonding - which just can't be done on this all in one 'smart' panel.
As such this system, as is, can never be installed compliant to the regulations - why they are selling it in the UK without having checked to see if they are even compliant, is disconcerting to say the least!
No Rcd protection when running on battery, no isolation on battery output, no earth stake (island mode).
Seems the manufacturer needs to address some issues and regs before this is used in UK.
The installation is now less safe than at the start of the job. This, and the missing 32A breaker shows the importance of planning. The installation docs are online.
My initial thoughts on watching this video (as a retired DNO engineer) - in no particular order -
Assuming the DNO supply is TN-C-S or TN-S and an earth connection has been offered and connected, it's an absolute requirement to have a measured earth electrode installed and connected to the MET for any alternative (ie switched standby) or additional (ie interconnected) source of electrical energy. One may have already been installed here before the video but we're not told if this is the case or not.
When part of the installation is being fed from the battery, how are the neutrals in the energised circuits referenced to earth? Is there an neutral/earth contactor in the Smart Panel? If there is, does it affect the neutrals on the circuits not designed to be energised by the battery?
As you discovered (and as the manufacturer states in small-ish print on their website) the Smart Panel circuits should not be connected downstream of an RCD or RCBO. Despite rearranging the circuits in the dual RCD DB, can you state that final circuits that _should_ be protected by an earth-leakage protection device (according to BS7671) will continue to comply with that requirement?
Do the relays in the Smart Panel achieve galvanic separation between the battery and DNO sources or is it a semi-conductor device? How can separation be tested, for example, by checking the IR of the switching device?
How can safe isolation be achieved for working on any of the circuits routed via the Smart Panel (other than obviously disconnecting the Delta PRO or other Ecoflow device)?
Although the changeover time may seem impressive at 20mS, I can see potential issues with these devices on installations supplied via rural DNO networks with auto-reclosing devices. If I was using one, I would not want it to re-energise any circuits until I was confident the DNO reclose sequence had completed/locked-out (typically within 1 minute). Rapid switching of inductive loads on the installation could be asking for problems caused by over-voltages due to back EMF. Unlikely but still not impossible.
ENA ER G99 requires clear labelling on the equipment to the effect that the installation is capable of supply from more than one source of electrical energy. I'm still wondering if this set-up satisfies the requirements of G99 or not. If BS7671 isn't satisfied (earthing of the installation neutral or final circuits missing their earth-leakage protection) then G99 isn't satisfied and neither are the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regs.
What are the performance characteristics of the circuit protection devices in the Smart Panel? Are they similar to a Type B MCB, for example? The use of backup generation (in my experience) seldom takes any cognisance of the fact that the alternative source of energy in use may actually be incapable of supplying enough current to operate the protective devices relied upon during a fault.
Finally (for now 🙂) there is the question of the cost of these devices. A single Delta PRO retails at £3500 (for only 3.6kWh !!!); a Smart Panel £1700. Eye-wateringly expensive before they're out the cardboard box! Add to that the installation of a measured earth electrode, juggling of circuits in the DB plus testing etc and that is one huge chunk of change! 3.6kWh isn't going to get you very far. Thanks for making the video though.
There is no neutral/earth contactor, i.e., a neutral earth bonding relay in the smart panel as far as I can tell as there is a reference in the manual to this area:
' Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP (Smart Home Panel)'
As such, and for the other reasons you stated such as no local earth electrode - this setup does not confirm to the reg's surrounding generators operating as an alternative supply nor the IET code of practice for Electrical Energy Storage Systems, for such equipment operating in island mode.
Your knowledge is mind blowing. Fair play. As an electrician what you just said seems another language to me
@@rjkelectrical6086 With no disrespect, that’s the difference between a chartered engineer and an electrician, I’m a chartered engineer too, but I’d always call an electrician to do the real work. 😂
@@Muppetkeepersame am an engineer, that's why I always say that's the differnce between a engineer and a electrcian 🤣🤣
So this was also a demonstration of how easy it is to work on a live CU when you believe it has no source of power. It's important to highlight the fact there are now two separate sources of mains voltage into the one CU.
Certainly Paul!
"Danger this equipment has more than one source of supply" signs required ;)
Like solar, I would have thought there was a requirement for a rotary isolator next to the cu to isolate theback up supply. God knows how you'll do that with there being a feed and supply for each circuit 🤪
@@TeamSimpsonRacing the smart panel has an isolation switch on it, you saw him switch it off. There is also a switch on the battery pack. You can also unplug the battery cable.
@@Pugjamin i did see him but I don't think that will allow you to omit a rotary isolator.
When I fitted mine, we had the same issue, we ended up fitting an extra board with non rcd breakers, removed the busbar from the rcbo board and fed the breakers of the new board into the bottom of the rcbos individually, this solved the issue and maintained the rcbo protection
I'm not a qualified sparky just someone who has grown up more or less understanding the issues. As as I watched the video three things were in my mind; what stops inverter feed causing the existing RCBs from popping, where is RCB protection, for the sockets when on inverter during a 'blackout', and what isolates the inverter output neutral from DNO earth - which you bonded across to the main house/DNO earthing.
Unless I missed some wiring/relay info it seems that the inverter input and output neutral is also bonded to the 'rest of the house' neutral when in blackout mode and on to the DNO distribution.
Switching off the main breaker does not simulate a blackout as it will also disconnect the DNO neutral connection. Seems to me that to get anywhere near to safe compliance there needs to be a dual pole isolator to disconnect the DNO supply fully while on inverter operation (along with sensing to revert when power returns)
To me this device seems totally inappropriate, in its current form, for use on an ordinary UK domestic installation - what compliance it is claimed to have would be an interesting question. I was not that impressed by The EcoFlow advice in regards to 'getting it to work' by messing with RCB positions (or even taking them out of circuit). I could think of better ways to connect it but that, as you say, would require a second CU, for the circuits to be protected, and a dual pole changeover arrangement - but it would be safer!
Looking forward to JW's observations 😂😂
commenting for following.
All excellent points, I’m not an electrician either, and I “illegally” wired my own EPS system as I don’t have wiring regs approval, I am however a chartered electrical engineer, and can’t see how the set up shown in this video is compliant with 17th or 18th edition.
@@Muppetkeeper If there is a pole reversal in under 5 months, I wouldn't worry too much about being compliant ;)
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In Ireland we just go to the pub when theres a blackout.
A pity the top flexible conduit isn't level between the two boards.
I wonder what David Savery has to say about this?
I'm a bit concerned about placing that unit with rather big cooling fans in such a confined space. I'd have a new door made for that space with ventilation slats from top to bottom.
With the storm outages that we have in the USA quite a few homes now have backup generation. The neatest solution is to go somewhat large on the backup power source and then have a single main transfer switch that switches everything between utility power and backup power. That way you don't have to touch the existing breaker panel. There are options available to automatically disable high demand circuits if desired. And it often doesn't cost that much more than a medium solution that only backs up some circuits.
I used to just rely on a portable generator to keep on the lights, refrigerator, heat and the basement sump pump. It was better than not having any electricity, but after going through a 4-5-day outage I found that I was still roughing it - a lot of food I couldn't cook without an oven, no hot water to clean up, and I couldn't do laundry. Not to mention that when your house has power during an outage you can easily get a few house guests. So, I'd avoid the middle ground - either do the minimum to meet basic needs or spend enough to be fully comfortable.
In order to run the whole house with a main breaker, you would be looking at ~$4500 US for the generac generator & transfer switch plus ~$6500 US for the installation of an 11-14 KW back up system. So yes for $11K US you could fully back up your house with a NG or propane whole house generator. I assume that if you had NG, you would be able to heat your water and run your dryer on your current portable generator. So, if you used this Ecoflow system, you still would not be able to use your electric oven. It is 30 amp max at 240 and your oven would need 50 amps. But the Generac whole house system would do it easily. We have NG for hot water and central furnace so we could run a system like this. Our 3600W inverter generator can run our house too, except for the electric stove. We may change that at some point, but for now we have the camping stove if needed.
I don't want anything wired into the Mains !!!! I have 2 Deep Cycle Lead Acid Batteries and two 200watt Inverters !!! I also have a 600 watt Lithium Generator and Solar Panels !!! But if they go wrong I can take them apart and fix them, or throw them away !!!! I intend to go to bed and sleep during a Blackout !!!! It will only be for four hours max in the Evening !!! All I need is enough power to Run an electric blanket, Electric 12 volt Fan, an electric light and a TV or Radio !!!! A built in System with Thousands of Pounds worth of Batteries will cost a fortune if it goes wrong !!!! And the Batteries may have 1000 cycles, then they will be Useless and will cost a lot of money to Replace !!!!
No RCD protection - because if the RCD trips the battery will start to supply power…
It's just a very delayed RCD protection - RCD Trips, battery kicks in, 5 hours later the battery is drained and you stop being electrocuted!
Give it it's own rcbo supply
@@waynecooney8140 yes, but that’s not what’s there at the moment…
I bought one 3 months ago here in Ireland to go along with my 2 Pros. I have not had any interest from an electrician in getting it fitted, electricians seem to be too busy and not wanting work here. 2 people have at least come out to look, but when I try and contact them I hear nothing back. So far I have a nice piece of kit that my cat sleeps on
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I am under the impression that any type of back up generator should have an additional TT spike as the grids earth can't be relied on in the event of a blackout. Thats unless the system is already a TT of course
I don't agree with using any part of the electricity distribution network to provide an earth for a backup system if anyone is working on the network they could either remove the connection which is dangerous to them and the homeowner in this situation I would install my own earth and disconnect from the DNO earth
@@haldo691 on a Victron MultiPlus this is basically how it is designed. Moreover, when the AC IN port is unpowered and the inverter feeds the installation (from a battery), there is an integrated ground relay connecting the AC OUT neutral with the earth.
Correct and a E-N bond is required
Not sure where this unit gets its neutral?
@@TheYohtube neutral should be coming from the inverter (this is not usa split phase) but I have seen some inverters that for some reason split the half the ac wave between both live and neutral witch can result in an fried inverter when neutral is connected to ground
What I don't get in this setup he did here is how is the neutral disconnected from Grid (flipping the 100A isolator isn't the same as when grid loses live) very likey the inverter will cut off the moment grid loses live or destroy the inverter because grid island protection isn't installed
He could test this by pulling the live leg out but leaving the neutral grid leg in and see what happens or simple muti meter test and check for live between N>E and L>E (if it reports 120v then it's a junk half split ac wave inverter)
MultiPlus 2000VA does this all in one
This video has so many questions unsure why you would leave an uncertified install like this in Operation
Love how he goes on about 32A breakers from the start. Realises he doesn’t have them so justifies how a 16A breaker “doesn’t matter in this situation”. Just drive and get a 32A breaker and offer what you claim to customers.
I thought it was the cables current flow that was the main factor ? If the cable is rated for 32A flow then the breaker is allowed to be lower as therefore the cable will never be overheated ?
@@adrianlynch9435 if he’s planned 32A too allow battery to charge at 7KW then putting it to 16A at 3.6kw, me as a customer would expect a 32A supply so I could charge in 30 mins not an hour… that’s like offering an EV charger and supplying them with a 16A instead of 32!
@@mattwhitley9315 I'm pretty sure he has returned to site & fitted the 32's. It was clear that having 32's wasn't critical at that point & downing tools & potentially wasting an hour or 2 when your mid flow of an install doesn't make sense & as you could see things went sideways as it was with the rcd situation. Made perfect sense what he did.
@@mattwhitley9315 I'm in agreement with Craig Butler below that I am sure they have gone back and replaced the 16A for a 32A MCB.. The purpose of my comment was that it is the cable current (max current that keeps the cable below the insulation melt temp. For normal twin and earth this is 70 deg C) that limits the MCB current rating. By downgrading the max current flow in the settings the customer gets a working system that will not trip the MCB until they come back and replace the 16A MCB. My opinion is that this was configured this way so there was a working system. Unless you were on very limited time of day tarrif then taking a bit longer to charge wouldn't really matter and if this is for power cuts only then a few days wouldn't be a massive issue - again in my opinion.
You sound bitter Matt Whitley
I am a UK electical engineer, I do think the whole concept and video is very dangerous to promote without first understanding product limitations and secondly understanding how split load C.U. are actually configured to give RCD grouped protection when feed thro the DNO metering and cut out (PME) .
So the interconnections were completed in the fashion that seems to make basic sense but then when the whole system is switched on, the dual RCD's both switch off immediately in the existing C.U. which frankly isnt surprising to me as 1. the RCD is upstream of the back up supply from the ECOFLOW and 2. the MCB's will be actually isolated by the ECOFLOW individual relay device which is also a electronically controlled circuit protective device (MCB) but remotely controllable as opposed to manual switching MCB.
So in a power outage situation neither the MCB or the RCD is actually doing anthing whist the mains supply is OFF or unavailable due to power outage. The video shows the system with the DNO supply live and then the Eco-flow battery system being switched into inverter mode. Thus the SLIT MODE RCD C.U. sees the neutrals from each side of the split board causing an imbalanced coil current load leading to RCD tripping out as it should. The problem with the concept and design is it would never give RCD protection, it would never give isolation from the PME supply thus causing live conductors to be exposed to another source of electricity which could be back feeding to the MAINs sub transformer network giving potentials for DNO operators attending sub stations to be exposed to voltages which would normally not exists on tripped outgoing terminals in the substation MCCB's. WARNING SIGNS ABOUT ALL SUPPLIES MUST BE ISOLATED BEFORE OPENING PANELS ETC PLUS Interlocked change over contractors and rotary isolators would be a requirement in the UK just for basic isolation if anyone needs to isolate power for any reason including testing and inspection or work on out going circuits.
Jordan, both RCDs tripped because both were seeing an imbalance. You had 2 circuits on the right-side RCD consuming current but the panel neutral is on the left-side RCD's neutral bar. This creates the same current imbalance in both of them when it switches over. The backup battery would have to switch over faster than the RCDs can react to avoid tripping them, and 20ms isn't anywhere near quick enough.
I purchased an ecoflow delta max last year and used it to power my 2 fridge freezers while I was having a new distribution box fitted. In all I ran the ecoflow for four hours and only used 15 percent of the battery plus used a microwave, kettle and toaster.
Gives peace of mind that hundreds of pounds of cold and frozen food do not get spoiled.
Think I'll stick with my certified and safe Victron ESS with proper protection at the CU and critical loads CU 😮
I am American but I still think the UK has some neat stuff. More power less breakers more universal arrangements and the panels.
But you could run a 240 house on your American breaker box, if you wanted. Go with electric heat, and you too would be using the 240 options in your panel.
@@gibblespascack1418 yes I have electric heat. I also had a 25 hour power outage on December 23. And no water because we’re on a shared well. as well as being one of the last 100 customers still without power in the county that they took their time to restore.
A storage heater would’ve been really nice, We don’t have that around here.
Well yes the water heater, the baseboard heaters, stove, air conditioner, dryer and now washing machine are 240v so that leaves lighting and general usage appliances, TV, etc.
I think some of their design choices and modularity is neat although some of our standardization’s in panel design are nice too.
@@imark7777777 I lived for 10 years in Rouses Point NY. The village had contracted with Hydro Canada at 2 cents/kw, so everything was electric. When Ice storm 1998 hit(Jan 1998), there are very few generators that could power even a small electric house in that area. Many of us had to immediately switch to Kerosun heaters to stay warm. Never forgot that. Purchased a Generac xl5500 for electricity, kept the kerosun heater, have a camp stove for cooking, 20 gal of kero, 27 gal of gas, 20 lb of propane just in case, if this happens again. About every 5 years we are without power for a week. This prep means that we don't have to be concerned. If I was to do it over again, I would get a larger Generac Unit and 200 gal of propane(if we did not have access to Natural Gas).
Questions/thoughts on this really interesting video:
1) Since this is wired in after the MCBs, what circuit protection is there when the system is running from the battery? - it looks like there is none and you'd really need a second consumer unit with MCBs to ensure there is MCB protection if running on battery. I wonder if this might help with the RCD situation, i.e. have the RCDs in the second consumer unit which would be fitted downstream of the smart panel and not have an RCD in the upstream consumer unit.
2) If someone turns off an MCB thinking they have isolated a circuit, it can presumably still be powered by the battery - is this a case of hoping the person switching off the MCB also knows to turn off the battery or is there some other protection?
What about back feeding the grid, is there any isolation switch to stop back feeding to the grid if power is cut from broken equipment upstream and the lineman getting zapped? For this reason it’s not allowed to do solar in automatic island mode in Sweden yet.
Yes you are not allowed to back feed the grid here in the UK, I'm not clear from this video what is in place to prevent this, in this setup. But I might have missed it. Shouldn't there be a generator changover switch or grid isoloator? Hopefully people that know more than me will comment.
That is exactly my thoughts!
It could be an issue with the neutrals causing the RCDs to trip, there only looks to be two neutrals for the whole device which provide the neutral to the unit when charging and the neutral back to the board when on backup. I agree it isn’t really suited to our UK wiring.
Is 100% a unbalance on neutral at the first attempt and after wen is working we see only a light circuit what about 2 load in different circuit?? MORE IMPORTANT A RCD TEST WEN BATTERY ARE IN USE ???? Is anyone done a ms trip test
@@davidegarga the RCD in the board which covers the battery backed circuits looks to be upstream of the battery backup system. If so it won’t provide adequate protection - if the RCD trips the battery will kick in and restore power to the circuit.
I'm in IT, and I'm kinda worried about the light flicker on the switchover, as I have replaced many expensive IT components that died during power surges caused by similar events. What happens if you are running with an overload when the switch occurs? I assume it fails somehow? Hopefully gracefully.
If you plug a light into a line-interactive or standby UPS you'll see the same thing happen - it takes about one AC cycle for the inverter to kick in and the relays to switch over from grid to inverter. Never had anything fail due to UPS switchover
@@gwyneddtobij1247 I thought a UPS essentially ran the power outlets via the battery, so they're no switchover time. Not 100% but glad I have one for my work PC, and it does indeed protect it properly as occasionally test by switching off the wall power.
@@MrFish1968 Your correct with "online" UPS systems bug these are £££££££ and you'll be changing the battery's alot. 99% of UPS systems out there switch over like this, :)
@@jameshughesdon5370 Should they phase sync if they switchover within a 20ms cycle like the Ecoflow might? I don't think the Ecoflow syncs.
@jam99 syncing only happens on three phase systems, single phase UPS systems normally just switch very fast
27 grand just for the equipment to get through 3 hour blackout time slots seems a bit excessive but there is the potential for the time slots to increase if the national grid requires it. I hope the owners think of solar too.
For those on a budget you can get 2.4k Wh for £999 but with 1000w inverter in the EB 240 but I think that sale ends 28th December. For roughly the same price you can get an Echoflow Delta with a more powerful inverter but at around half of the battery capacity of the EB 240. There's a lot of options for mid-range too or to build your own. I think it's something people should think about but if not, get the candles out and enjoy the disconnect from the tech we've grown so used too.
Interesting video, not sure how it can be labeled an "Amazing system", "that doesn't work in UK"! Sometimes even with paid content you need to think about reputational risk and this wasn't your finest day IMHO... I can't help but think if it were me, upon realizing it didn't really work without what you called "cowboy hour" I would I insisted it be decomissioned and returned as not fit for purpose.
Have you made the calcs for the grouping factor for all those circuits you squeezed into that 25 mm conduit?
Different circuits with single insulated cables in the same conduit would not approve in Belgium here also .. i thnk..
It would be neglible, especially under typical domestic loads. In theory you are correct but you just wouldn't experience any tanglible derating in this situation. It like when people think you'll see eddy currents on a single-phase 100A supply. You just won't.
Well that's one system that's completely against reg's......Where is the neutral earth bonding relay, required for operating in Island mode?
From the SHP manual: 'NOTE: Please follow local code requirements with regard to bonding neutral and ground. Bonding should be done at the first means of disconnect, which is the service panel, NOT the SHP'
I'm not keen on this system here in the UK - doesn't work properly with RCBO's/RCD has described, obviously not designed for our market....and is cost prohibitive anyway.
Bit confused here, but what I think this means is that there is no MCB or RCD/RCBO protection for the backed up circuits when they are on battery as the battery is inserted by the ecoflow box after the consumer unit, I understand there’s a backup fuse, but that’s a poor replacement for a modern consumer unit. Also agree with the comments on earthing. That said I’d say with different wiring this would be fine, just not happy with it as connected.
Blimey, lots of comments, from what seems very qualified people.Think your going to have to do follow up video. Get the ECOFLOW people on the video -- not just their PR but seriously qualified folks to explain whats going on.. Installing this /like this /has opened a can of worms -- the comments testify to this... Glad your ok. stay safe.
That's unsafe , clear you don't really know what your on with
I really do like the fact that I can connect up to 10 of my home circuits to this Smart Home Panel.
Nice. Out of my range at about £6k though! I got a Jakery 240 Watt Hour - I did a test and vid on it. It will run my combi boiler for about 2-3 hours. Power banks for the phone. About £250. Working fireplace. Fixed up an old site generator too.
I think you should have used larger diameter conduit to allow the required cooling space as per code, unless the wiring is oversized to compensate so you can derate the amperage capacity.
Conduit is less than 24”
Heat is not issue. NEC 2020
@@benjaminvivar7855
Lets just say the USA is not the holder of the best electrical standard. Heat is an issue with every electrical device, because of physics. Please read BS 7671 to understand what the standard is for this installation (United Kingdom). What Rob was referring to was de-rating factor where containment is used.
Surely a changeover switch would be much cheaper and in the rare event to power goes off you can flick it over
The best part in the US, is the fact you have to have clearance around the load center panel (CU), so you can't put them in cabinets in the kitchen or under stairs etc. Most of the time they are in the walls out in the open, in the basement, or for those without basements in the garage. However they are out in the open so most of the time you can just stand there and access them at shoulder height or lower. Most newer homes they are all flush mount as well. This can cause issues like you adding kopex here, you can't do that very easy when they are behind the sheet-rock. So there are some logistics that make things tougher for sure as most will be in wall for cable runs for example adding a new circuit. One set of problems traded for another set of problems. 🤠👍
I was going to say everything that you said plus, I can't believe the gas meter is that close to the electric panel. Where I am, a gas meter or propane tank has to be 5 or 10 feet away from an ignition source. The spacing is based on the fuel, propane or natural gas and is the ignition source above, below or beside the gas or propane source.
@@royordway9157 Which country are you please?
It's 150mm in the UK. Anything greater than that is excessive and unecessary.
Hey, thanks for this great review. I am using it with full options. So 20kwh and with 3200w of solar panels. On sunny days i can run my house only with this system. On cloudy days the battery last up to one day in normal usage. So only in winter and in rain periods I need to charge it. Great invention to be independent. Also I can charge it with the smart generator with petrol
I'm not an electrician but some thoughts..
A device like the Ecoflow will have lots of sensitive electronics in it for the switching, so wouldn't the install really really benefit from a CU with SPDs?
The Ecoflow really should have some large isolation warning stickers on it to prevent the batteries feeding back into the CU whilst it is being worked on, as you found!
I dunno, but some elements of this just don't feel like they're very.. compliant?
We Campervaners have being useing and testing these systems for a while. For off grid camping I use an Allpowers Monster X 2000w output and 3300w max surge output solar generator in my camper can use Air fryer for 10 days without any problems. You may need a 12v electrician with your electrician.
Im a real fan of your channel, and I think this is a mistake. An isolation switch after the meter , mains power and battery power into a transfer switch (manual interlock or automatic such as Solax EPS or Vectron) and the output goes to the consumer unit. All the protections of the consumer unit maintained. Please follow up and explain why you would not do it that way.
Interesting idea from ecoflow although it seems like they may need to revise the design somewhat for UK use. Not a fan that the system is bypassing RCD protection...
Interesting idea done in a very overcomplicated way and questionable with UK wiring regs
So when the circuit is running from the battery the only protection you have is in the fuse inside the cartridge in the smart panel rather than the RCD in the distribution board. Is that compliant?
100% not compliant. Customer gets a fatal electric shock and you're of to jail
It needs another board after the panel to provide protection which would be a mess
I'm very surprised the regulations don't enforce the installation of a red main switch on the battery feed that can clearly be switched off to remove any source of 230 V power in the consumer unit !
Is there at least the "Warning : multiple power sources in this panel" sticker on the CU ?
Neutral bonding / switching is the problem with the RCBOs. You can not put a generator after (upstream) an RCD device. What I found working, is a whole house backup with a transfer switch, where the RCD / RCBO is always downstream after grid or backup inverter.
Or, you need individual RCDs after the ingestion point, where the Wagos went.
Yes replace rcbos in main board for mcbs for desired circuits then install new board above existing board with rcbos for each circuit. Not sure
about neutral reference for the smart change over unit device, must be the charging circuit?
A bit late response but here it is.
If I'm not mistaken then ideal solution would have been to install additional consumer unit, one that is before smart panel (or upstream) and another that is after smart panel (downstream) that is on battery back up. This way you should be able to maintain the RCD in all cases.
Personally I have Deye hybrid inverter at home (PV + battery) that is installed similarly or essentially the same way whilst all my RCDs are still functioning as required. A bit intrusive installation that requires additional effort in time and materials but end result is very good: faster takeover times, you can choose what has battery back up and what does not, configurations and etc.
Great video 👌 could have fitted the box 1” higher though to line up the top conduit though 😅😂
I think it's the height of the camera that makes it look off
Really your comment is about to straight up the box are you for real ??
Dual supply Jordan! 2 points of isolation label required.
Not an electrician just love this stuff as educational but surely the black return cables from the EcoFlow are still line conductors and as such surely should have as a minimum brown sleeving fitted where they’re connected to the red ring wires in the co diner unit as black is the old colour code for Neutral wiring?
Indeed ideally wouldn’t it be better if the plugs in the EcoFlow are rewire-able to replace the black cables with brown conductors so they fully match UK wiring regs not US!
Might be nice then to label the return conductors as such.
Don’t use American gear in the UK as it won’t have been designed with UK requirements like RCD protection in mind!
Maybe it’s time that kit designed with UK regs in mind should have a label so you know it’s designed with our regs compliance in mind!
I think you will find the RCD tripped because the ecoflow has a high frequency inverter in it and they do not have galvanic isolation so would trip RCDs also check the earth bonding situation as the neutral and earth are some times linked in the inverters so might need a new earth rod out side
When the CU is running on the battery back-up system, does the neutral from the inverter get connected to the earth ?
What is the panic and hysteria with all the blackouts? So many people managed to survive blackouts during the late 1970's and early 80's when various Unions went on strike. We didn't panic, just lit a candle and talked to each other, read a book by torchlight or got sent to bed
The black wires connected to the red ones in the board should also be sleeved red
It's a crap product not designed for the UK market given the issues with RCD's especially. What's the life-cycle of the product? How much does it cost to run the control panel and keep the batteries charged?
Apologies, I’m not an electrician but very avid viewer and IT Engineer but what part of this installation is protecting current go back out to the street when there’s a local power outage and your energy supplier is working on the electrics in the street. Amazing content love the solution I just remember when solar panels are installed and you have an off grid solution. You’re supposed to have a cut-off device in the event of a local power outage that prevents battery back ups pushing to 240 V back into the street. Unless I’m wrong, interested in your answer.
I am in the US...I use triple-pole double-throw relays for my power switching. It makes all 3 connections [L-N-E(G)] switch at the same time.
Each set of relays...3 sets in total...have their own separate Earth (Ground) connections to individual Earth (Ground) rods.
This might solve the problem like what you are facing...not sure if it would be up to code in the UK but if it is you can try this setup.
I have used panels in the UK and USA. USA panels are generally larger than the UK, making wiring easier even though the wires in the USA is thicker being only 120 volts. When it comes to backup systems I hate the ones that control selective circuits, and instead prefer full auto transfer from the mains supply, or at least ones that back feed into the panel which generally limited to 50 amps, but those require an interlock on the panel to stop one from electrocuting line workers.
Nick bundy made a comment In One of his videos about a consumer unit under the stairs and I believe it’s now not recommended for new installs (ok for existing installs though), but sticking a ton of lithium ion batteries under there would be a hell of a lot more worrying to me than my consumer unit.
Understand about having the relays and fuses in the unit, but I think I would be happier with the feed going in to the whole consumer unit, not a sparky so wouldn’t know if this is correct but given Jordan got a belt it seems a little worrying.
My guess is that he’ll go back and tidy up the loose ends there as Artisan take pride in their work.
Also how would you then do an EICR would you test from the connection at the consumer unit to the UPS board or at the cables coming of the ring main / radials? Am I right in saying that the power comes out of the MCBs into the UPS and then back out again in which case the UPS is part of the circuit. All seems a little up in the air for me. Still nice video Jordan.
Wow. Thank you. I have been asking EcoFlow for months about using these in the UK.
I must have been asking the wrong person. (witch is odd really, as a YT influencer, who, similar to yourself we have over 163K subscribers. You'd think they would have been keen to chat to me)
We have also been looking at the BLUETTI AC500, do you know if we can use them here in the UK (mind you, we have missed out on their cheap IndieGoGo price)
As they are still talking about rolling blackouts, we got a letter just the other day. I ended up buying a River 2 MAX and a "Epoch Marine 100ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery" to extend it. So that I could keep our combi Boiler, fridge and some lights on.
Plus we have an older home, still got wire fuses (no RCDs). And we keep talking about moving.
We like the sound of charging on Off Peak rates, and maybe even a couple of 400w solar panels on the shed to augment the charging.
So it would be nice to have something that we could ‘take with us’ if we moved.
Was seriously thinking about putting this until the end when you said there rcd tripping issues
My CU is in the downstairs loo, so I assume that the two sockets on the Smart Panel would make it a no-no so close to water?
Likely yes unfortunately.
All through that I was saying to myself will it have RCD protection for the output circuits with the way you are wiring the battery backup between the CU MCBs and the final circuits and won't that then contravene regs for RCD protection of users and wiring? Even if the CU RCDs were to trip won't the battery backup now simply keep electrocutng the customer?
Also flipping the CU isolation switch isn't the same as a power cut where the grid goes down but remains connected - it wasn't clear if your final wiring solution avoids the possibility of back feeding the grid.
The point has been made about a TT earth for when the TNCS cable is severed. Also curious about the maximum load from the battery?
The unit had some issues with RCD upstream tripping. What if there would be an actual earth lickage (let's say a person touched live wire), so the RCD would trip and at the same time cut off the power to the unit, so it would switch to battery back-up and keep shocking that person?
I hope it makes sense. Can someone verify that for me?
I think you’re right. No RCD protection on the battery = fried fish finger
Here’s a question: if a circuit’s breaker was off in the CU but then the whole incoming power tripped, would the eco flow supply power to that circuit? Does it have any way of knowing what should or shouldn’t be on other than the relays?
How could it supply power to the circuit in question if the circuit breaker was off?
@@adammachin because the circuit breaker only feeds into the EcoFlow. Power out from the ecoflow is just straight into the circuit without any protection other than a fuse. I would love to test this out because I reckon it would live up a previously dead circuit just by having a powercut
@@Phiebs is that how you would want this to be setup?
@@adammachin no not at all, I think that’s how it’s set up in the video and it’s a serious concern in addition to the no-RCD/proper earth etc mentioned elsewhere
@@Phiebs that's what I thought.
The RCD is tripping because you're sharing a neutral with the grid and some current is leaking that way instead of back to the ecoflow. It's the problem when your relays only swap the live. It's why you either need a 2-pole relay to swap hot/neutral or you need to create a neutral that is isolated from the grid and feed your backup panel with that (e.g. using a centre tapped transformer when you have 2 out of phase hots coming in).
I learned this the hard way when I had a GFI equipped inverter feeding hot only swapped circuits.
There's really no "easy" way around this short of just moving the backed up circuits to their own panel and isolate the grid neutral when the inverter is on.
I know that victron have UPS inverters that'll sit between the meter and the consumer unit. Less control over what circuits you can power in the event of a power cut but would be an easier install + they are compatible with a few house battery brands.
They also have versions that work as a solar inverter as well so it's a good future proofing route if the customer wants solar in the long run.
I may be biased here because they sponsored a battery charger for a LiFePO4 battery I built for my mobility scooter (through the off-grid garage youtube channel). They seem like a good company.
Wow, I wouldn’t have that in my house. I have a solar inverter with batteries and an emergency power outlet. My EPS is wired into a new and extra consumer unit, which has its own earth via an earth spike, it also has RCD and MCB, which then runs to extra sockets and lights in the home as an emergency network.
No sign of an effective earth in the set up shown in this video, walking out asking if the RCD will work whilst on battery is below your usual standard of care.
So for £6k+ and can run the house for maybe 4 hours in the event of a power cut! Then when it does it's own thing I have to become a cross between an electrical engineer and an IT systems geek - it can be challenge sometimes to get the sky box to re-boot.
I bought a £250 2.2kwh generator and paid an electrician to install a change over switch - now the hardest part is pulling the starter cord!
you've basically got the most effective,economic solution there
If the unit itself (battery box or the smart panel) has RCD protection inside, then the circuits should still be protected. Surely it has RCD protection internally, hence the issue you were encountering?
I come at this from a different angle to most commenters to this video, who are quite rightly focussing on the electrical side and safety etc.
I am someone who’s constantly seeking ways and means to utilise solar and also off peak power, to manage energy costs. In my own home, I have invested in solar, tesla powerwall, air to water heatpump and air to air heatpump for air conditioning. I have an EV and so also have a myenergi system Eddi for hot water and Zappi for EV charging when there’s spare solar this set up works brilliantly and my total energy bill including heating/cooling and EV charging has been around £700 for last year - even with sky high energy tariffs.
I also have a static caravan and what I would like to do is replicate much of my home system using the EcoFlow Delta Pro… This video is the first I’ve found in the UK that shows how you COULD insert the Dela Pro between the grid and the property to manage input feeds i.e. grid, solar or even generator and output feeds i.e. the caravan or indeed charging the EV. While this isn’t yet a full robust solution, it does take us most of the way… EcoFlow are pushing the boundaries wanting to go beyond simply delivering an off grid solar generator, to a fully integrated solution and I commend them for this. I look forward to further videos on this subject and if you guys at Artisan Electrics, want to use my Caravan in Wales as a guinea pig install for and “off grid” and grid tied integration I’d be up for that!
Is this thing legal in the UK?
So interesting how installations and regulations are different across the world, i'm from Canada. Much different here. I love the channel and seeing how electrical varies! Thank you for the awesome content
In theory what is stopping you feeding the circuits supplied by the ecoflow with a passthrough connection in the board supplied directly from the main switch. Then having the outgoing ways feeding into RCBO's and the circuits still wired into the outgoing side of the RCBO's. That would comply with the required protections for the circuits but.
Not so sure how I feel about having a semi-island mode where it's shoving current down the suppliers PME instead of cutting the incoming earth off. As the neutrals are still going to be in any case returning from the circuit, into the rcbo, into the neutral bar and down the suppliers cable + two neutrals back to the Ecoflow.
Nice show case but seems overly dangerous for the UK and doesn't seem to adhere to our regulations.
I was told that solar panel and battery output must shut down if grid power fails, to avoid putting power into grid wiring that could electrocute an engineer responding to an outage. That being the case, does your setup comply with that requirement? (Maybe I missed that in the video.)
The output of this unit is only to the loads. It switches off the mains and connects the battery. Again only to the loads 😊
I don't know whose brand this hurts the most when a manufacturer sends product to every you tuber going. The youtuber or the manufacturer. Honestly makes me actively look for alternatives.
The problem is that RUclips pays out so much less than they did in the past, meaning that creators need to look for other sources of income… so don’t be so hard on them. Watch these sponsored reviews if you want (or just skip) and read between lines in what they say.
@@av_oid No problem with paid promotion but it the extreme level of supply to creators that devalues the product and those creators who promote it. I wasn't aware I was trying to be harsh to them though
This is amazing. not only giving you energy for the home. You can take it out on days out, camping etc. Very universal. Shame about then RCD though.
55 years experience here. Worked on quite early systems right up to modern day stuff.
Q, is the Battery back up providing a CPC path to Neutral.? for RCD / RCBO to operate normally, but in this case reverse.? (Volts on the Neutral)??
Q, is it possible that this isolation (or lack of) is the cause of the tripping (in reverse).? a balancing issue.?
Remember, the inverter Neutral might not be providing a low resistance bond to the CPC Earth potential. Causing the RCD / RCBO to wrongly detect.?
Its all new, and needs some work.
I would have thought a similar idea to the automatic change overs to Batteries had to be covered in the Solar panel industry, this also involves an inverter, that doesn't naturally have its Neutral bonded to the CPC/ Earth either.!? Unless you provide it.
I have an old UPS here, which obviously does not power the house, only what ever is plugged into it. No mixing involved. Ahh the simple days are calling.
The isolation giving me thought and concern. If someone not familiar with a battery system starts working on say a socket circuit that has battery backup. They isolate the one circuit in consumer unit. Circuit then tests dead. If a power cut occurs the circuit then becomes live. With my very limit, none, knowledge of this battery system it needs to feed in before the isolator. Or some way that ensures the battery has been disconnected, unplugged before work in consumer unit or its circuits is carried out
I could see so many dangerous issues with this, but I didn't see that one and yes its a BIG issue. Someone DIY-er or home owner could just turn off the circuit breaker to change a fitting but it will still be live 😳
@@TeamSimpsonRacing It really is important that a sticker be placed on the main circuit breaker to turn off the ecoflow system. I have these units but no warning sticker was provided... and it really should be. (I'm a Brit but living in the USA for 20 years so my system is installed here in the USA. I made my own sticker (!) )
Jordan, have you heard of Photonic Induction’s RUclips channel? It seems he’s stopped quite a few years ago, but he built his own back up power supply using what looked like a couple of car batteries, a dc to ac inverter that gave a pure sine wave, and this must have been at least ten years ago, but looked quite effective and also fairly simple. I wish he was still on RUclips because, I’m sure he could come up with some brilliant designs that people could make themselves and probably not too expensive. In fact you and your staff and Possibly Oval renewables, could develop kits, that allow people to make their own power saving kits. I’d love to see if anyone could make small wind generators or even hydro generators. I just feel, it will get to the point where it will be worth while making your own things just to save a little bit of money and if you save enough expanding more.
I bought 4x 12V 130AH AGM Leisure Batteries for £80 each off Ebay, A 1500W Pure Sine-Wave Inverter and all of the H/Duty Battery Cables, 10mm Ring Crimps, Midi Fuses, Battery Clamps etc all for just under £500. I suspect it will power basic appliances such as TV, Router, Heating Pump, Fridge Freezer for a longer period than these portable units. I think Photonic Induction's set up had a huge capacity and may have used either Milk Float Batteries or some kind of ex-military batteries or something similar, and as well as for back up purposes he used his set up to utilise the cost of E7 Off peak Electricity by charging the batteries with cheap rate Electricity and then consuming the stored energy during the day when E7 was more expensive.
He came back beginning of year with new videos top bloke a comedian too seen that class home build
Done the same, use 2 different CU's
@@offgridsolaruk843 What would the rough cost of a typical install be, like this? Ball park.
I can’t believe a quality company like yours doesn’t bench test new equipment like this first! Effectively you are using a customer as a Guinea pig and putting them at potential risk shocking practice
I wouldn’t mind as long as they come and fix any issues free of charge and replace with a different version if required
Most likely the customer ordered this and asked them to install it
An experienced electrician like Artisan is more than qualified in my opinion
Do you know how many products are in the market
It’s unrealistic to have experience in all products.🤓
1) it's a sponsored video, the customer likely got this for free or for a massive discount compliments of Ecoflow
2) it's possibly not a 'customer' but a member of staff, or friend.
Do home back up batteries need an earthing rod ?
Is something we’ve questioned with EcoFlow
Yes. In the U.K. any switched alternative source (like this Ecoflow or a petrol generator etc) or an interconnected source (like solar PV plus a battery or even just a battery plus inverter) has to have an independent, measured earth electrode connected to the main earth terminal of the installation that is to be energised. It cannot be assumed that the DNO network is in any way intact during an outage.
A very interesting video on UK electrical systems, personally I prefer to keep things simple and have a separate circuit of power backup outlets for important units. It done manually but it works.
Yeah, running a single backup plug to main rooms … which avoids guests or kids switching on heaters or unnecessary appliances and draining battery.
I’m in Africa with daily power blackouts - so, we opted to wire everything into our backup systems (incl geyser/boiler), and manually manage it.
We have a guest apartment/house - and that is wired as you say, just lights, TV/internet and 1 plug in the kitchenette - so, effectively disables the entire kitchen and scullery - except for a single plug, during blackout periods
@@JDAfrica yes I have read about the constant power outages in SA, it doesn’t look like it’s going to get fixed anytime soon. Best to have a system that stores energy while you have electricity, then use the stored energy.
We usually have breaker boxes in wall at standing height in our country, it is requirement for easy access. Also we have indicator lights for any active power source, the ecoflow relay unit shuld have its own earth, also intrusion detection switch in main consumer unit may be great to switch ecoflow off. The relay board could have RCD functionality if it can measure current, but is it implemented?
Not a spark but changing RCD’s RCBO’s for MCB’s is backwards when we are looking at AFDD’s now! The better way would be if the unit could have supported 100A and run the grid through that and then to the consumer unit as just like tails to the mains switch on the consumer unit to backup the entire board.
Bad points with this setup it doesn’t support Solar, so your reliant on grid charging and off peak charging and a small battery like that is going to be dead in no time, then your drawing peak power which defeats the point of the off peak grid plan, and for just backup power it’s not worth the money that that cost, Proprietary change cable for the battery meaning he has to be close to that unit .
But just my two cents no RCD/RCBO protection sounds like a bad idea from someone who’s not a sparky.
Shoulda bench tested this, not compliant with UK regs / and the installation was a little bodged, beginning with the naff flexible conduit rammed full of conductors/ then filling the CU with wago's / then ramming an earth into the same conduit / clearly too excited over the kit to consider the installation whatsoever. Take a satisfactory install and introduce C2's at best...
I have told the uk Ecoflow page and main Ecoflow page it must be RCBO board 1 - not enough room in that existing board 2- conduit to small 3-always use 32 amp feeds in as that’s what it’s designed for 4- circuits in must be standard circuit breakers but all that said I always smile as you don’t edit when you make a mistake 😂 oh and always use all circuits as client will eventually use all circuits. Main thing is your get loads of views and make more people aware of this fantastic bit of kit that is ideal for exist FIT covered solar so you don’t effect Fit payments but you store all that free energy instead of sending it to the grid.
Oh I forgot it can be on 2 phases which is a bonus
Coming from a hospital environment where megawatt UPS and standby generation are the norm, most electrical breakers have lists of whet they supply AND where that power comes from
that solution is already available using victron equipment that supplies 50a in the event of a grid failure,if 2 inverters are wired together you get 100a max load, this system is featured on a uk yt channel
Not obvious at first but you can see how feeding the circuits from both sides on a split load board would cause a neutral and line imbalance and trip the rcd's if the neutrals are still split into different neutral bars.
Presumably this could be used to keep a grid tied solar inverter powered up, thereby running the house load from the solar batteries at night/solar panels during the day?
Even that can become problematic as the solar always needs somewhere for excess generation to go, it's why with the Tesla System, the unit once charged to 100% will disconnect the solar and then run down again to 80% battery before returning to allowing solar generation again.
@@adammachin Surely it is no different to having the inverter set to not export? the inverter would ramp down the panel outputs when there is insufficient load from the house or batteries?
@@tpottrell yes makes sense, sorry I don't know if all inverters can do that.
Jordan Maybe you should ask David Savery to see what he thinks?
Noticed there is a gas supply meter below to the electrical box..... any safety issue to install there?
I have one of these tried to hook it up. All I get is area codes. It constantly beeps 3 times Batteries do not communicate with the panel.. I have had to call echo flow 4 times now. Still haven't resolved the issue in 4 weeks.
I thought it was weird when mentioning replacing the outgoing lines.... Why does this sort of device exist in this form? Why not have it so that it supplies after main isolator but before c.u.?
Thanks for the vid and all of the hard work you put into this. The Eco systems are really good back up et You illustrated the frustration that can follow an install such as this when that install is probably a test AND the end results hitherto / prior to your install; an 'unknown quantity'. The changeover in UK regulations re electrical installations / household et saw some radical changes re ECBs / RCDs et configuration and installations. We have to remember what those 'circuit breakers' safety wise are there for AND for those in the USA if you are interested DO read up or view YT et which will help educate on OUR reasons in the UK for having those requirements. As said I appreciate your AND the householders frustrations when problems arise from such installations * UK et HOWEVER we must not be side tracked by ignoring the end benefits that a backup system provides. I look forward to seeing future work arounds and updates. 👍
This needs a new CB primary side supply consumer unit installed and the existing RCBO consumer unit promoted to secondary, connected after the battery. Having all supplies in the same board is frankly scary, and I would stick hazard labels all over the installation as de-energising circuits needs care for the unwary.
Also, companies that make UPS systems have been around for a while, and some may have some products more suited to UK installation. How long has this company been going. What is the prospects of long term support?
As usual, great video making. Worth expanding the point of charging off peak, and using it off-grid power for peak use. And also charge from solar.
Wish I could afford to do this.
The next power cut, will be just a mobile phone for light/entertainment.
Like others, I would really like to know the proper outcome of this!
I am not an electrician, but I think the way I would do it would be to have all the circuits that feed into the EcoFolw panel be MCB's only, so no RCD in the main CU for these, then have the outputs from the EcoFlow panel feed another CU with RCBO's for each circuit (so no main switch in that panel), which also has an earth rod, as the suppliers earth cant be relied on. You then keep all the RCD protection no matter what is powering the installation, the main CU will only be fed from one supply, and the secondary CU would need warnings that is is powered from multiple sources, with details of what to isolate to make it safe to open
I don't understand how the battery provides a Neutral when powering the home? The only Neutral (blue) cables I saw running into the switcher were part of the battery charging mechanism. I've seen in American homes that the Neutral is often bonded directly to the Earth bar in the fuse box itself, does this system use the two Earth conductors to provide the Neutral and assume they are bonded to the Neutral bar either in the fuse box or at the TNCS supply head?
For a TNCS supply they will indeed be bonded.
@@davepusey so do you think this solution would work with a TT instillation?
Interesting. I thought the Powerwall was unique in having a gateway device which physically disconnects the house from the grid in the event of a powercut to protect grid workers from potential shocks and therefore comply with regs? Our solar+battery all switches off if the grid is lost...
I'm in the USA, but here EcoFlow tell me that the control panel will not feed back into the grid when there is a power failure (grid down). I have to assume that these units would not be allowed in the UK if this were not the case there also. They would not be legal here, either - but they are, so...
I'm not an electrician but I read somewhere that the control panel senses voltage from the grid and when absent cannot send power to it (something like that).
These units would not be legal in the USA if there was no back feed protection.
Come on, this video is really not a good reflection on ArtisanElectrics. The constant enthusiasm about the system whilst not sufficiently explaining its pitfalls (particularly within the environment of UK electrical installations, the core of your channel and business) seems a bit dubious.
You're displaying not great behaviour, as a RUclipsr, around what is a likely non-compliant product. The video is not balanced at all and is below what I expect from this channel.
Also, is this sponsored or not?
I don't like the loosely dangling WAGOs inside of the DB.
When On battery power what relationship is there between neutral and earth on the ring sockets? Would a socket tester pass the basic correct wiring test? Would it trip on an RCD test? Are the lines in one conduit between the two panels with the neutrals in the other?