Love your thoughts on everything here, some very valid points. As much as I'd love them to try and balance the formats, I just don't think they will. They really seem to be pushing this power creep (as a way to sell product IMO) so I expect it to continue.
I’m very tempted to say that there will be very little change across the board… They are very keen on saying ‘look at the range of heroes who have won events… We don’t need to change anything’ Likewise, with the lack of blitz events to inform the decision, I can very easily see another ‘no changes’ coming… I’d happily be wrong, but that’s my prediction!
So, I'm inclined to agree with most of your takes here. It was admittedly jarring to go from the wide open meta that HVY had to MST where there is a single S-tier deck again. On top of that Nuu preys on that deck while Enigma low-key gatekeeps others the way OG Prism used to. I personally think LSS won't do anything due to the ecosystem this kinda creates between these three heroes. If they did do anything, it'd see Zen needing to find some new shoes. The trouble I see with Zen getting nerfed though is that it creates a circumstance where Enigma becomes more viable and Nuu continues feeding on aggro as Kayo will still be there lurking in Zen's shadow. And I might catch disagreement but I legitimately think Nuu and Enigma are two of the most unfun heroes to play against. Like Azalea can remove agency by spamming Red in the Ledger buffed with dominate and stop you from playing the game, Nuu does a similar thing by just taking your cards away. And don't get me wrong, I know Nuu is fun to play as, but FAB games are a shared experience. Enigma on the other hand is like playing into OG fatigue a lot. Even if you know you're gonna win it can feel arduous to play through her tankiness. So, my personal thought is if they powered down Zen in a more significant way they would need to hit all three MST heroes. For Blitz, I would suspect that if anything it will be what you're saying. But I wouldn't rule out Storm Striders. They've banned it before. And I don't know Commoner well, but if one class is running the show then it's definitely a thing to address.
I don't fully agree with this take. I don't believe that looking at the entire pie chart is something we need to consider when looking at the individual power of a hero. I don't believe that nats with barely above 10 people should be considered in the power scaling of heroes either, not enough rounds were played and most likely percentage of meta relevant heroes in such events is smaller. I think that day2 conversions of Zen should be considered (for the nationals that had a day2), I believe that we need to look at nationals with 50+ people, those are the events that should be taken into consideration. Dash I/O won 2 nationals, but both of them were with small amount of people, that doesn't (necesserally) mean that the hero is strong. Secondly, I think that, for a competitive tcg, seeing livestreams of one hero playing fab and Zen player basically doing a YGO combo is not something I want to watch. Maybe this is a moment where the power creep is much more visible than in the other sets and we just need to accommodate to that. In my opinion, a pre-errata Briar would struggle in this meta for example.
Thanks for your detailed comment. I must admit though I struggle reading this to determine if you want a Zen ban, or if you don't. The argument I'm making with the meta breakdown data is that MST heroes are strong. You disagree with looking at the raw data, which is valid - but removing the heroes/events you refer to actually give Zen a greater weight%. You disagreeing is fine, but it implies that you don't agree that MST heroes are strong and/or need anything done. But then at the end of your comment, you mention power creep is more visible - and that you don't want to watch it on stream. Which implies you don't like the creep. But then you finish with "we need to accommodate" which means "just deal with it". So I'm at a loss of what your conclusion is, and what exactly you're disagreeing with.
I'm quite aware, but I think it may be the right thing to do for the format overall. Besides, one of the largest nerfs for Emperor? The existence of Blaze...
@@DiceCommando To me this is a reflection of the fragility of the blitz format. It can have moments of greatness, but is only the smallest step away from cracked at any given moment. I would like to play more blitz, but if ANYONE in the playgroup is determined to play a meta deck, it ruins the fun for everyone.
Ive kind of been taking some time off of playing fab recently just as a mental break, save for a couple blitz armories. I do agree on your takes for both blitz and cc though. Zen needs that small hit, and Striders just steals games even when im feeling secure about a longer win all too often. Havent had the misfortune of playing against a Blaze yet, but the games ive spectated were ridiculous to say the least. If Striders going away ends up being too much i can accept it coming back. Were the top 8 lists for the commoner gold foil event posted? Im really interested in how that Enigma list looked. Thanks again for your great work!
I don't want Zen to be gutted in anyway in CC but I do think he needs to be brought down a bit. A ninja having as much good armor as he does and having the ability to make games non games so consistently with easy 20+ damage turns with one misstep or one off turn is a problem. That being said the main card I want taken from him is Ancestral Harmony. The fact it often functions as a zero resources Art of War that sometimes draws you a card and also enables transcend which gives him a resources is too much power on one card. Not to mention the turns where it does hit and he banishes a Bonds or Gustwave games are just not close.
First and foremost, LSS should use community sentiment to drive commoner bans. Commoner is a niche format (hopefully not forever) to which LSS takes a very hands off approach. Letting community sentiment drive the format makes it seem more like a real format and not just an untethered forgotten child. I am still on the kodachi being my main problem with the format (as an Ira Commoner main). The efficiency of kodachis in such an efficiency minded format is just so good. If they just want to curb ninja a bit, sure they can hit the kitty cat suite but I'd personally like to see what commoner looks like if ninja takes a large hit from losing kodachis. As a side note, one major reason for commoner being awesome is that illusionists are few and far between. Sorry LSS, I know it's one of your darling classes but having permanents with potentially unlimited board presence time in a turn by turn cycle game is just too polarizing.
I built a fun and decent Enigma commoner with spectral riders, phantasmal hazes, and enigma chimeras. Its been catching people off guard and there are less 6+ power cards in commoner overall to blow up phantasm.
Please, please, PLEASE introduce Restricted to CC! I would really love to see C&C, Art of War, Codex of Frailty, and Warmongers get restricted to 1. I don't care that the value of those cards will likely drop & I lose money on them - I would still like to see those cards get restricted.
They already restricted Warmongers in LL, seems fair to do the same in the lower power levels. Art of War & Codex of Frailty often get value way above the curve and can be game winning on their own. C&C is so above rate that it stifles list building choices. Restricting them allows them to remain in the game, but not have as huge an impact. Having AoW go to 1 is a decent way to power down Zen slightly. Having CoF go down to 1 will power down Nuu a little, but power down Azalea more to help balance the buff she'd get from Warmongers going to 1.
@@hamsandwich6685 Tear Asunder isn't warping the meta, and you can't really restrict cards that come in more than one color, like Pummel or Bonds of Ancestry
@@canadianized Trying to curb Nuu through Codex seems premature, especially since she has too many bad matchups, and would also nerf not just Azalea but lower tiered heroes such as Arakni and Riptide, not a good idea. Warmongers doesn't hit a lot of heroes these days so not as many decks run it. Art of War is mainly in Zen and Levia. C&C is just in every deck and a pay wall for new players. I could see a case for Art of War and C&C, but not the others.
Ok, so let's take this step-by-step: First, now of course hindsight is 20/20 but it always seemed that Kayo was above the rest of the heroes in HH, Victor being the only one that slightly could keep up in terms of power level. MST heroes are strong yes, and maybe the ban of Stride of Reprisal is enough however it's not the first time that a aggro hero takes of and the common denominator has always been AoW. Second, in Blitz banning Storm Striders would once again hurt another deck, in this case, Emperor. but I agree that it is a problematic piece and with the new wizards on the horizon it might be the best option
I agree that if they do something about Ira in commoner another ninja might just pick up the mantle, but I do see value in that. It might just close the gap a bit and allow decks that can't quite hang with ira to perform better. Maybe it also leads to diversification and people run all the different ninjas instead of ira being the undoubted number one.
@@DiceCommando Thats the million-dollar question. Outside of hitting Kodachis and giving Benji, Katsu and Ira new, different weapons I wouldnt have a ready made answer to that question.
I think that enigma is a problem. She makes half’s the meta unplayable. Can’t play dori, gaudian or any slow deck because she will just destroy you. And she is just unfun to vs. it’s not fun watching your opponent start the game with 4 more life and put a defensive reaction in Arsenal.
@@Tanpopohimawari i think nuu and zen are by and far worse than Enigma though. Nuu is the most controlling hero yet, and zen has broken blitz. Enigma takes work to be even remotely good, and her whole board dies to common stuff like pick to pieces.
I'll back you up on this. Pairing into Enigma is a lot like pairing into Oldhim back when pure-fatigue was the favored strat for him.. Even if it's a totally winnable match! Right now she's kept at bay by Zen to an extent, but if that were to change people would get a hard lesson in exactly how unfun FAB can be...
Tbh, I‘d feel like it would be such a bad move by LSS to ban sash. Like, then they should have just taken it out straight from the start, not making people buy the deck or the card, beforehand. And finally having a brute chestpiece that isn‘t just variance based feels so good
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but in case not - Rhinar is easily one of the best heroes in the format. He has multiple "strip 3+ card" lines, most of which utilize Barraging Beatdown - or simply just Bloodrush into Wild Ride etc.
@@jauntyjack he is more swingy, where as kayo is more consistent. Rhinar can one turn kill in blitz by intimidating the whole opposing player's hand away and swinging for buffed up 10+ power attack. On a ridiculous turn, he buffs that single, effectively unblockable, attack to 18+ damage, either killing you in one blow or crippling you so badly that you cant hope to recover.
Only problem I have with banning zens boots is that his M d-react is now useless. Im not going to say it was useful to begin with as no one plays it but thats because its extremely hard to make a tiger on defense and its really only through his boots or the blocks from RTT. I think they will release something soon to encourage blocking and getting a tiger on defense before banning anything of his.
Remember he could always use the RTT Kitty boots (pouncing paws) which sends it to Banished. The only functional difference is it's not in hand, which means it can't feed Art of War. It seems like the logical move if they want to do anything (which I don't know that they will).
@@DiceCommando territorial domain. While defending if you've created a tiger this turn it gets +3 defense. If you destroy pouncing paws on defense while you do create a tiger on defense for the d-react to gain plus 3 I don't think you would still get it on your offensive turn.
@@DiceCommando it's not in the top lists (or really any lists 😂) but I feel right now people aren't playing zen how they want zen to be played. From his lore they have "Powerful defense reactions and blocks" in the cat like reflexes section. I think they will curb his offense somehow else before going for the one defense reaction possibility he was given.
I don't get it. If Sash is that big of a problem why isn't Brutes getting more good results in blitz? I see it as a strong card, but not a "need to ban" card.
@@DiceCommando But there's no data that show that they are dominating the format, just a card that can be abused in a strong way.Valiant Dynamo is also a strong card that warriors abuse, but yet I don't think it should be ban.
Though I think Blaze does have these high highs, I don't see her having the pop off that Kano had. Her reliance of large hands and a lack of ways to really chain actions I think is what keeps her in check. Sure a Pump into a Wildfire into a Sonic boom/Chain Lightning is devistating but that's a really expensive hand, they'd also have little resource after it and it's also easily disrupted by AB or a prevention spell. I do believe that she does warrent more sideboard slots but overall I don't see her as a huge threat, especially the all Arcane version. Outside of warrior a lot of the best decks in Blitz have great equipment with AB2 built into them making blocking her even easier, and even for Warrior sometimes it's just best to punish her lack of equipment and really go all in and rush her down far more than you can on other heros
Apologies for the confusion here folks - this was supposed to go live on Friday but with the holiday I mis-scheduled. Enjoy 1 day early!
I think blaze is a huge mis step for fab. A limited release promo with such power shouldn’t be legal in any format.
Love your thoughts on everything here, some very valid points. As much as I'd love them to try and balance the formats, I just don't think they will. They really seem to be pushing this power creep (as a way to sell product IMO) so I expect it to continue.
I’m very tempted to say that there will be very little change across the board…
They are very keen on saying ‘look at the range of heroes who have won events… We don’t need to change anything’
Likewise, with the lack of blitz events to inform the decision, I can very easily see another ‘no changes’ coming…
I’d happily be wrong, but that’s my prediction!
I completely agree. They'll use the week 2 spike in Nuu to deflect on Zen.
For Blitz, I also agree - but think it's the wrong approach.
So, I'm inclined to agree with most of your takes here. It was admittedly jarring to go from the wide open meta that HVY had to MST where there is a single S-tier deck again. On top of that Nuu preys on that deck while Enigma low-key gatekeeps others the way OG Prism used to. I personally think LSS won't do anything due to the ecosystem this kinda creates between these three heroes. If they did do anything, it'd see Zen needing to find some new shoes. The trouble I see with Zen getting nerfed though is that it creates a circumstance where Enigma becomes more viable and Nuu continues feeding on aggro as Kayo will still be there lurking in Zen's shadow. And I might catch disagreement but I legitimately think Nuu and Enigma are two of the most unfun heroes to play against. Like Azalea can remove agency by spamming Red in the Ledger buffed with dominate and stop you from playing the game, Nuu does a similar thing by just taking your cards away. And don't get me wrong, I know Nuu is fun to play as, but FAB games are a shared experience. Enigma on the other hand is like playing into OG fatigue a lot. Even if you know you're gonna win it can feel arduous to play through her tankiness. So, my personal thought is if they powered down Zen in a more significant way they would need to hit all three MST heroes.
For Blitz, I would suspect that if anything it will be what you're saying. But I wouldn't rule out Storm Striders. They've banned it before.
And I don't know Commoner well, but if one class is running the show then it's definitely a thing to address.
I don't fully agree with this take.
I don't believe that looking at the entire pie chart is something we need to consider when looking at the individual power of a hero.
I don't believe that nats with barely above 10 people should be considered in the power scaling of heroes either, not enough rounds were played and most likely percentage of meta relevant heroes in such events is smaller.
I think that day2 conversions of Zen should be considered (for the nationals that had a day2), I believe that we need to look at nationals with 50+ people, those are the events that should be taken into consideration.
Dash I/O won 2 nationals, but both of them were with small amount of people, that doesn't (necesserally) mean that the hero is strong.
Secondly, I think that, for a competitive tcg, seeing livestreams of one hero playing fab and Zen player basically doing a YGO combo is not something I want to watch.
Maybe this is a moment where the power creep is much more visible than in the other sets and we just need to accommodate to that. In my opinion, a pre-errata Briar would struggle in this meta for example.
Thanks for your detailed comment.
I must admit though I struggle reading this to determine if you want a Zen ban, or if you don't.
The argument I'm making with the meta breakdown data is that MST heroes are strong. You disagree with looking at the raw data, which is valid - but removing the heroes/events you refer to actually give Zen a greater weight%. You disagreeing is fine, but it implies that you don't agree that MST heroes are strong and/or need anything done.
But then at the end of your comment, you mention power creep is more visible - and that you don't want to watch it on stream. Which implies you don't like the creep. But then you finish with "we need to accommodate" which means "just deal with it".
So I'm at a loss of what your conclusion is, and what exactly you're disagreeing with.
Wizards Everywhere, Me Included: 😠
Banning Storm Striders in blitz? I get your point but man taking that from Emporer would nerf him so hard....
I'm quite aware, but I think it may be the right thing to do for the format overall.
Besides, one of the largest nerfs for Emperor? The existence of Blaze...
@@DiceCommando To me this is a reflection of the fragility of the blitz format. It can have moments of greatness, but is only the smallest step away from cracked at any given moment.
I would like to play more blitz, but if ANYONE in the playgroup is determined to play a meta deck, it ruins the fun for everyone.
Love this take!
Ive kind of been taking some time off of playing fab recently just as a mental break, save for a couple blitz armories. I do agree on your takes for both blitz and cc though. Zen needs that small hit, and Striders just steals games even when im feeling secure about a longer win all too often. Havent had the misfortune of playing against a Blaze yet, but the games ive spectated were ridiculous to say the least. If Striders going away ends up being too much i can accept it coming back. Were the top 8 lists for the commoner gold foil event posted? Im really interested in how that Enigma list looked. Thanks again for your great work!
I don't want Zen to be gutted in anyway in CC but I do think he needs to be brought down a bit. A ninja having as much good armor as he does and having the ability to make games non games so consistently with easy 20+ damage turns with one misstep or one off turn is a problem. That being said the main card I want taken from him is Ancestral Harmony. The fact it often functions as a zero resources Art of War that sometimes draws you a card and also enables transcend which gives him a resources is too much power on one card. Not to mention the turns where it does hit and he banishes a Bonds or Gustwave games are just not close.
First and foremost, LSS should use community sentiment to drive commoner bans. Commoner is a niche format (hopefully not forever) to which LSS takes a very hands off approach. Letting community sentiment drive the format makes it seem more like a real format and not just an untethered forgotten child.
I am still on the kodachi being my main problem with the format (as an Ira Commoner main). The efficiency of kodachis in such an efficiency minded format is just so good. If they just want to curb ninja a bit, sure they can hit the kitty cat suite but I'd personally like to see what commoner looks like if ninja takes a large hit from losing kodachis.
As a side note, one major reason for commoner being awesome is that illusionists are few and far between. Sorry LSS, I know it's one of your darling classes but having permanents with potentially unlimited board presence time in a turn by turn cycle game is just too polarizing.
I built a fun and decent Enigma commoner with spectral riders, phantasmal hazes, and enigma chimeras.
Its been catching people off guard and there are less 6+ power cards in commoner overall to blow up phantasm.
@@hamsandwich6685 i won my local commoner armoury with enigma. the days of illusionist being a meme in commoner are over, haha
I don't think anything will happen but what do I know.
Please, please, PLEASE introduce Restricted to CC! I would really love to see C&C, Art of War, Codex of Frailty, and Warmongers get restricted to 1. I don't care that the value of those cards will likely drop & I lose money on them - I would still like to see those cards get restricted.
Interesting thoughts!
They already restricted Warmongers in LL, seems fair to do the same in the lower power levels. Art of War & Codex of Frailty often get value way above the curve and can be game winning on their own. C&C is so above rate that it stifles list building choices. Restricting them allows them to remain in the game, but not have as huge an impact.
Having AoW go to 1 is a decent way to power down Zen slightly. Having CoF go down to 1 will power down Nuu a little, but power down Azalea more to help balance the buff she'd get from Warmongers going to 1.
Forgot tear asunder and may as well take pummel too.
In fact anything that disrupts hands should just go entirely.
@@hamsandwich6685 Tear Asunder isn't warping the meta, and you can't really restrict cards that come in more than one color, like Pummel or Bonds of Ancestry
@@canadianized Trying to curb Nuu through Codex seems premature, especially since she has too many bad matchups, and would also nerf not just Azalea but lower tiered heroes such as Arakni and Riptide, not a good idea. Warmongers doesn't hit a lot of heroes these days so not as many decks run it. Art of War is mainly in Zen and Levia. C&C is just in every deck and a pay wall for new players. I could see a case for Art of War and C&C, but not the others.
Ok, so let's take this step-by-step:
First, now of course hindsight is 20/20 but it always seemed that Kayo was above the rest of the heroes in HH, Victor being the only one that slightly could keep up in terms of power level. MST heroes are strong yes, and maybe the ban of Stride of Reprisal is enough however it's not the first time that a aggro hero takes of and the common denominator has always been AoW.
Second, in Blitz banning Storm Striders would once again hurt another deck, in this case, Emperor. but I agree that it is a problematic piece and with the new wizards on the horizon it might be the best option
I agree that if they do something about Ira in commoner another ninja might just pick up the mantle, but I do see value in that. It might just close the gap a bit and allow decks that can't quite hang with ira to perform better. Maybe it also leads to diversification and people run all the different ninjas instead of ira being the undoubted number one.
How do you hit just Ira though? There's no card she runs that is just hers. You'd have to ban the hero, and I see zero chance of that.
@@DiceCommando Thats the million-dollar question. Outside of hitting Kodachis and giving Benji, Katsu and Ira new, different weapons I wouldnt have a ready made answer to that question.
I think that enigma is a problem. She makes half’s the meta unplayable. Can’t play dori, gaudian or any slow deck because she will just destroy you. And she is just unfun to vs. it’s not fun watching your opponent start the game with 4 more life and put a defensive reaction in Arsenal.
All 3 mystic hero's are a problem in their own way. Zen does too much damage, nuu has way too much disruption with 0 counterplay..
@@Tanpopohimawari i think nuu and zen are by and far worse than Enigma though.
Nuu is the most controlling hero yet, and zen has broken blitz.
Enigma takes work to be even remotely good, and her whole board dies to common stuff like pick to pieces.
I'll back you up on this. Pairing into Enigma is a lot like pairing into Oldhim back when pure-fatigue was the favored strat for him.. Even if it's a totally winnable match! Right now she's kept at bay by Zen to an extent, but if that were to change people would get a hard lesson in exactly how unfun FAB can be...
I hope they buff Nuu so this toxic piece of cake get's to living legend ASAP 🙄😂
Interesting, ha!
Tbh, I‘d feel like it would be such a bad move by LSS to ban sash. Like, then they should have just taken it out straight from the start, not making people buy the deck or the card, beforehand. And finally having a brute chestpiece that isn‘t just variance based feels so good
They won't ban it in CC.
zen needs adjusting for sure imo. got 1st timers coming to armories killing you by turn 3
I feel this is a false statement.
Whenever aggro is in the lead, this is generally the reaction by the community is that it's too easy.
@@sandwhale4292 are you in Colorado? come to one of the colorado springs armories and see. Sometimes you can make it to turn 5 seems very rare.
Rhinar is good in Blitz? What OTK are you talking about?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but in case not - Rhinar is easily one of the best heroes in the format. He has multiple "strip 3+ card" lines, most of which utilize Barraging Beatdown - or simply just Bloodrush into Wild Ride etc.
@@DiceCommando Do you have a list? No one plays him at my LGS. Is he stronger than Kayo in blitz?
@@jauntyjack he is more swingy, where as kayo is more consistent.
Rhinar can one turn kill in blitz by intimidating the whole opposing player's hand away and swinging for buffed up 10+ power attack. On a ridiculous turn, he buffs that single, effectively unblockable, attack to 18+ damage, either killing you in one blow or crippling you so badly that you cant hope to recover.
@@jauntyjack if you check his video log there's at least one solid Blitz Rhinar list that he covers.
@@nathanjacquart4395 three months ago?
I think banning storm striders in blitz isn’t right. Emperor catches too much flack from that.
Only problem I have with banning zens boots is that his M d-react is now useless. Im not going to say it was useful to begin with as no one plays it but thats because its extremely hard to make a tiger on defense and its really only through his boots or the blocks from RTT. I think they will release something soon to encourage blocking and getting a tiger on defense before banning anything of his.
Which d-react is this?
Remember he could always use the RTT Kitty boots (pouncing paws) which sends it to Banished. The only functional difference is it's not in hand, which means it can't feed Art of War. It seems like the logical move if they want to do anything (which I don't know that they will).
@@DiceCommando territorial domain. While defending if you've created a tiger this turn it gets +3 defense. If you destroy pouncing paws on defense while you do create a tiger on defense for the d-react to gain plus 3 I don't think you would still get it on your offensive turn.
I see. Is that being played in the top lists? If not, I'm not sure it's a priority to keep around, at the expense of a card that could tone him down.
@@DiceCommando it's not in the top lists (or really any lists 😂) but I feel right now people aren't playing zen how they want zen to be played. From his lore they have "Powerful defense reactions and blocks" in the cat like reflexes section. I think they will curb his offense somehow else before going for the one defense reaction possibility he was given.
I don't get it. If Sash is that big of a problem why isn't Brutes getting more good results in blitz? I see it as a strong card, but not a "need to ban" card.
One of the largest arguments against blitz is "Rhinar 4x intimidates" - and this feeds that even harder, no?
There are no events how can there be results? The only data we have is talishar and Kayo is destroying everyone
What results? There are no tournaments. Kayo and rhinar are doing extremely well in blitz
@@DiceCommando But there's no data that show that they are dominating the format, just a card that can be abused in a strong way.Valiant Dynamo is also a strong card that warriors abuse, but yet I don't think it should be ban.
okie dokie
LEAVE THE CATS ARMOR ALONE!!!!! I JUT BOUGHT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Though I think Blaze does have these high highs, I don't see her having the pop off that Kano had. Her reliance of large hands and a lack of ways to really chain actions I think is what keeps her in check. Sure a Pump into a Wildfire into a Sonic boom/Chain Lightning is devistating but that's a really expensive hand, they'd also have little resource after it and it's also easily disrupted by AB or a prevention spell. I do believe that she does warrent more sideboard slots but overall I don't see her as a huge threat, especially the all Arcane version.
Outside of warrior a lot of the best decks in Blitz have great equipment with AB2 built into them making blocking her even easier, and even for Warrior sometimes it's just best to punish her lack of equipment and really go all in and rush her down far more than you can on other heros
She is indeed a huge threat.
Just ban shift cause bonds is dumb and shouldn't have been printed. Cat Zen is fun. Aggro is dumb, control is smart is a theme in every TCG.
they should ban blaze. Sorry Oats