Ossiarch Bonereapers Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 04192023
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the new OBR Battletome and we are talking through whether the bone daddies are on the march or if Katakros should be put back in the tombs. Join us and find out!
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0:00 News
16:00 Pick of the Week
18:45 Hobby Time
24:00 OBR Overview
51:50 CT & Artefacts
1:08:36 Subfactions
1:27:50 Warscrolls
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Great show guys, I've been waiting for this book with so much excitement and it really did not disappoint. The reason I feel in love with OBR was for their lore and the models in the range with the ability to attrition/res models in battle and this book feels like OBR should to me. Power aside I just love the way this book combos and the fact it gives so much choice to you as the player to react to situations unfolding in front of you and it's going to be alot of fun learning them all and getting better with it over time! Overall this book is a few tweaks away from perfect IMO. :)
The OBR points feeling hefty is also coming from their entire model range having 2 series of point reductions over the last ~year. But yes, they desperately need more units. Most OBR armies are pretty much the same because there isn't much selection. More weird bone amalgamations/golems like the harvester on a 40-60mm base size would be great. These guys can craft bone into whatever shape they need, it doesn't always need to look humanoid.
some units are def overpriced (nagash, morghasts), but i think many obr units only feel overpriced because of how much of their value is hidden behind free faction rules and actually rather efficient support units. like 300 is a lot for 20 morteks, but its a steal for 20 morteks with +1 to hit and save from katakros, a 4+++ save from a harvester, and +1 to wound from counterassault, and +1 rend from bludgeon.
efficient force multipliers + expensive core units means you have to play to the army's synergies to make it work, which feels right for their theme.
Some kind of bone insectoid or dragon would be neat.
You are confusing lack of aesthetically different units with a lack in capability. Their synergies are super lore appropriate as is their application on the table top.
The hero and a book thing is so true. They keep missing OBVIOUS layups. Like a DoK harpy hero that makes harpies battle line? Or a mounted bloodknight champion that's either a paladin or a wizard that actually buffs vampires?
I tend to agree. I'm quite happy with the Slaanesh hero though.
yeah, vycos uniaue hero was about the worst possible choice, when cav vamp lord, generic zombie hero, dedicated vampire mage, and infantry wight king /not/ packaged on a square base are all open goals.
guess it really is true that the sculpting studio just makes whatever they think looks cool and its up to the rules writers to just make it work.
I think it should be noted that the Crematorians ability takes place AFTER the model is slain, but BEFORE the model is removed, so it works perfectly with the harvester, because the harvester's ability kicks in AFTER the model is removed. So you can keep up a cycle of die, explode, bring back, die...I think this could be an interesting subfaction to try.
positioning can be a bit iffy though. It's easier now that the harvester range is 6" instead of 3", but the triggering model does need to be both within 6" of the harvester and 3" of an enemy unit.
@@Malisteen True, but the Harvester's job has always been to walk behind the infantry and resurrect them. With a 6" range on the harvester, it should be possible now to move a 20 model block of Mortek ahead of a Harvester, and reap the Crematorian benefits while still having the Harvester within range of every model. And with a command ability that can give the harvester a 5+ ward, and a spell that can give it a 4+ ward against mortals, we can maybe stop the Harvester from getting shot off the board so quickly.
I'm pretty sure they said they're doing new sculpts for Bretonia and Khemri.
I want to live in the mind castle of the designer who thought "960 is too cheap, better make it 965"
The flip-through book is a bold new direction for the show.
What do you mean?
@@VinceVenturella The video (not audio) hitches constantly.
As a 40k player, this really feels like a bridge between the two. A bunch of rules straight from 40k, all the strats and planning your cp out... definitely my jazz. Super keen to get this army going.
As for double exploding 6's (the Ivory Host), the math works out to exactly: Every attack hits. 6 attacks -> 2 misses, 3 hits, 1 six -> 2 extra hits -> 6 hits. Effectively autohitting is always interesting.
Speaking of which Vince, again, thank you for recommending Wappel. He has a video on OBR and holy shit my mind was blown; 11 minutes of painting and I was nearly ready to turn the video off and call it done. Some drybrushed highlights (drybrushing oil makes so much sense, though I'd never considered it), but all it needed was the cloth and armour afterwards and it'd be beyond tabletop standard.
Which... well, for rank and file I'm not complaining. The bone was *interesting* and had depth. My only concern is some of the paints he used in the mixing were labelled online as semi-transparent. My understand of Abteilung was they're more opaque - is that something you can thin down further, or does that ruin the nature of the oil paints? If it was acrylics I'd laugh and thin for days, but I feel thinning too much would impact the underlying nature of oils.
To answer your question about paint - transparent paints are not just opaque paints with less pigment, it's the pigments themselves that are transparent, which overlays differently - opaque covers, while transparent overlays. Thinning down opaque pigments won't get the same effect as a fully transparent pigment, but will approximate semi-opaque/semi-transparent paints somewhat well. Think of the differences between a glaze with a transparent ink/wash, vs a one made with a semi-opaque paint (i.e. yellow), vs one made with a more opaque paint (i.e. white) as the difference down the scale - each is highly thinned, but still has a different end result.
I don't believe Abteilung are any more/less opaque than artist oils, but may be more matte when dry depending on the paint - it varies across the range, and most would probably fall into the semi-opaque category from the ones I've used. Give it a go and see if it works - if it doesn't, oils are easy enough to remove!
If you weren't getting the effect you wanted (i.e., they were too opaque), you could quite happily thin them to get the desired effect (other than full-transparency). Remember that paint is primarily made of three things - pigment, solvent, and medium. Just like how with acrylics you can thin with water (solvent) or acrylic medium for different effects, you can thin oils using spirits (solvent) or oil (medium). Solvent thins the consistency and lowers the pigment density, and in the case of oils, lowers its surface tension. Mediums, however, lower the pigment density while retaining consistency (which might be more applicable for dry brushing if they're too opaque!)
Great show as always! Thanks!
Great show guys! On the Arkhan v. Katakros debate, I am Team Katakros. +1 to hit and +1 save is just SUCH an amazing buff. I would love to run both him and Arkhan, but I do find it leaves you a bit thin on bodies, especially with the need to have a Mortisan to have Immortis Battleline (which I believe is absolutely essential - they are the best troop scroll in the book right now, and it isn't close). I agree with the notion that a lot of units feel 10-20p too expensive, and I further think that Mortek have shifted in role a bit. I think their defense is rather mediocre compared to the last book, but their ability to absorb offensive buffs with their volume is absolutely phenomenal. I now think of them as counterpunching infantry. Kind of confused by the love-fest for Stalkers, as I don't see them as being nearly as good as Immortis. If you pick defense, their damage is weaker - if you pick damage, their defense is weaker. Also surprised at how bullish you were on the Harvester, since most OBR players seem to dislike him now that they're light on units and have to cut somewhere.
Tip for playing this book. Get them under 6 units and deny them 3 command points a battle round.
The play on tabletop video is amazing, fantastic. My entry didn't appear once😅💀
Hey...I don't really give a hoot about OBR...but I listen every week...and I still enjoyed it. don't remember his name...but great host! well done everybody..see you next week.
Love it when the lord of death makes an appearance
I'm ok with much of the initial old world ranges being old models. we know some new models are coming, we've already seen in progress work for kislev, bretts, & tk. bringing back old ranges on a made to order basis lets them start off with a workable range of factions & units without dramatically cutting into releases for their main line games, and they can update a bit at a time going forward.
sure the individual models wont be as nice as all new stuff, but individual dude quality doesn't matter as much in a ranked battle game where individual dudes get buried in unit blocks. the higher degree of detail and more dynamic poses of modern gw kits is if anything the opposite of what you want.
and yeah, i do still love some of the latter day oldhammer ranges. dark elves (cold one riders, executioners, coursairs), wood elves (archers, clade riders, wild riders), bretts (knights, archers), tomb kings (sphinxes, tomb guard)... there's a bunch of old kits I'll be happy to have back. I'll def be picking up some tomb kings stuff, & might even grab a bunch of bretts to put together a "FEC as they see themselves" army, though that will depend on what the 3e FEC release looks like.
Long term Stalliarch Lords fan. Missing the run and charge for the whole army, but I'll take rerolls on charges for my OBR cav army. Prob suck at tournaments, but it's fun to play. :D
When this show started my first thoughts were about how i wish they added more units to the army. Fit perfectly with the early topic. i started to think of the armies i play and realized that problem is quite pronounced in what i use either by army or theme. Several books really need a new unit or 2 over yet another character.
note that the +3 move command is now on normal moves only, you can't also run. as a result mortek guard battlelines are a fair bit slower getting into position in the early game, or getting onyo objectives in the late game.
i think your missing the stalker ability is in the command phase, so you then use the auto run 6 in the movement phase to jump that unit out 12 inches and still charge! its pretty nuts
Hot damn Tyler that's awsome that you'll be at CCC ill be there as well playing for CollectorMafia Orange. I'll make sure and say hello and thank you inperson for all the work you do on the show .
Looking forward to it!
How much for the brets vince? I got 2 sealed necrosphinxes. Lol i dont need more knight's but having an army of the paint quality you put out would be awesome
Don’t think I didn’t notice the Aqua Teen Hinger Force reference, Vince.
I would say bout 50% of my vocabulary during any show is basically a reference. ;)
re: vokmortian 140 for a dual cast loremaster is great. the 160 point guy also needs you to be running little stuff to be worthwhile, as their third cast is sig spell only which only buffs little stuff now. so i could absolutely see vokmortian running in any petrifex style list that doesn't want to shell out for arkhan.
Seeing a # of concerns. Just to reiterate + expand:
* I think it’s A Tier, with some potential to be out of bounds, but it’s design makes most issues addressable by point changes.
* One of the arguable downsides with the (buffed) quality the army can achieve with some warscrolls: if you have to further increase point values, the army may feel so elite that it doesn’t feel like a “proper army.”
* I think it’s high floor, high ceiling. High floor = you may not find a book with a higher baseline of warscroll quality. High ceiling = that high baseline can become very scary under good decision-making.
* I do worry the book reinforces a feeling I’ve had for a while - that both of the following could be true:
1. The macro will continue to look healthy (ie most factions will fall within 45%-55%).
2. The macro will obscure micro problems, starting with what feels like a level of rock-paper-scissors in the game that might be unprecedented, which then contributes to a lot of players having poor experiences.
Would love to be wrong about #2.
last point spot on imo, this is mainly a problem for casual. Where u have limited nr of opponents, maybe as low as 1-2, hard counters become a big problem. eg I really don't see how an IJ force stands any chance at all vs this book, assuming 2 equally skilled players it's probably 90/10 or even worse... OBR migth very well be held down overall by things like Teclis but other combat armies will really really struggle is my guess
I do love this book, local club OBR player is Very excited for good reason.
After playing against Katakross Immortiss spam, I am surprised to hear this book be called B tier
As a Tzeentch player I just imagine null myriad as our punishment for 1&2E Changehost Warscroll Battalion.
I agree
Strong army with strong battalions
Rough fight
As a BoC player Soul Release is very, very good.
Don't forget Gryff Hounds! They let you shoot at units set up near them. If you're also near the Hounds...
Lovely deep dive! I was hoping you and your team would get a chance to do this after you healed up from adepticon:) as Mir Kainan was the only warscroll you guys didn’t cover, could you give some thoughts and post them at the top of the comments section? He’s my favorite unit from the book but will likely receive an FAQ immediately :) thank you!
I'll see what I can do, but in short, I expect an FAQ, but he's a cool unit for sure.
I was worried you guys weren’t gonna dive in deep but you nailed it. Great review. Question about the catapult. Couldn’t you spread your shots across their entire enemy army and fish for 5+ for strike last across the board?
yes you could. :)
Hey Vince! Do you mind elaborating on what you meant by the term "lacking cut-ins" at 11:26? Also, what was the mention about Player's Handbook about, a Warhammer rules document?
A cut in is a thing in the mold that allows a piece to basically fold or "cut in" like it would in real life, effectively, where it folds under to a place where it would be very difficult to get it out of the mold because the cut in portion would lock it in if the modling and slicing isn't very clever. The models just show the age, I could point out 20 things on those knights that you would never do on a modern miniature and make them more like a toy than a detailed miniature. I get it, I have a lot of nostalgia about them as well, I have a massive army of them, but they are aged (aged) sculpts. The Player's Handbook is a reference to D&D 5e.
@@VinceVenturella Appreciate the answer, now I learned something new :)
Just coming back to this vid as got the Ossiarch Christmas box so starting a new army I suppose. 1 thing I despise about GW's design is how they always seem to decide it is a good idea to put literally every one of their named characters in a single subfaction.... WHY?? Why isn't Zantos Stelliarch for example? Maybe Vokmortian could be Null. If they have to be locked at least spread them out a little bit.
The Rumour Engine looks a bit like a previous ghoulish Engines. Maybe it's some kind of Ghoul-Bretonnia Wizard? (Lady of the Lake?)
I'm not sure I understood the last wrinkle of the kavalos deathriders tek - the part where you can use them as a means to travel to a different place. Is it because the Mortis Praetorians sub faction ability allows for a unit to charge so long as it is within 12" of an enemy unit that has charged andyour unit is outside 3" of enemies (not engaged), but the key part is that you're free to attempt any charge against any enemy unit? So, basically you can use it as a trigger to allow your cav to charge, say a group of enemy chaff standing on an objective, at which point it becomes a means to move your cavalry in your opponent's turn. But, both the enemy charge and your responding charge must take place in The charge phase. Is that the idea?
Correct. So long as you are running Mortis Praetorians and do not end up engaged from an enemy charge, you activate the subfaction ability, either spend the warscroll command to jump over your stuff or save it to potentially re-roll, then maneuver onto something that doesn't want to be charged like in your example. On your activation, they can pile-in an extra 3" through Unstoppable Charge.
@@PrussianWarfare ohhhh and that extra pile-in could be nasty considering what people hide behind a screen. Thank you kindly for the explanation.
@@NapGod No problem, glad I could help!
watched the SoW channel with 2 games up and in the second OBR had arkhan and boneshaper with Key which meant he returned 9 mortek / turn to a block of 30. if you do that for t2-t4 which doesn't seem implausible, that is almost 30 morteks back, ie effectively 450pts worth. maybe a good way to visualise that just like with summoning, base cost needs to look high as you are getting a lot of extra pts in during game from this. Add harvester and a less skilled opponent going into multiple units, it gets even more. So on that basis I'm not sure they are undercosted
Thanks!
I am really happy with the new Nagash warscroll. Now bring it down to 920 or so points and he is perfect.
I think the deepstrike ability for Harbingers may be underrated. The best thing about deepstrike is that your opponent knows you can do it, so they have to protect against it, which often forces them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do.
I agree with the lack of units, OBR should have gotten a few more models to round out such an amazing faction, we need archers, and we needed chariots, some more foot heroes, and maybe another monsterous creature....we got 1 out of 4.....
But, (and this is key) do they reap bones better now than previously?
Definitely better bone reaping.
@@VinceVenturella 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴🦴
I played two games against OBR with Fyreslayers this past weekend. It was a rough matchup for me.
Yeah, that seems rough.
Just saying that mortek guards, Immortis and Necropolis seems a little bit too expensive is just insane. How dare you ^^ these units are so powerful.
Wait, they aren't updating and making new sculpts for the Bretonnians?
...Well, that kinda kills off the enthusiasm I had for Old World. It's going to look weird and wildly out of place when one person is playing with 90s models next to new sculpts of Kislev and other armies they're updating (if they even update anything else)
My problem with Arkhan the Black is that he shouldn't be around. Dude's dead. Like, turbo-dead. Annihilated from existence. Why is he still here?
In practice, obviously I don't see Arkhan being a model you can field a problem. GW still wants to sell the model, and players want to be able to continue using the model they bought and painted. I just think the game should acknowledge that Arkhan, himself, no longer exists. Call the unit "Memory of Arkhan the Black". Either a bone construct created to mimic the guy (with like three wizard souls stuck in his head, to make him a triple caster), or say what's on the field is some kind of magical phantom created from the residual memory of Arkhan. Like, his reputation precedes Arkhan so much, it persists long after him too. Make it seem like the Teclis book from Broken Realms actually mattered.
(For that matter, Nagash's "Books" ability should be excised for the same reason. Those books were destroyed. Use it as an excuse to reduce Nagash's point cost, so you're not spending _half your army_ running him.)
Rumour is probably ghoul from warcry :v
Are any of your ‘crew’ going to Warhammer Fest?
Sadly not this year.
Damn, that’s a shame. I was hoping to rub shoulders with some wargaming elite! And if they weren’t there, then maybe some of you lot…
Time to comment
*Mortal Kontract
If you just think about the concept of OBR, It has to be one of the hardest battle tomes to write. As the 'elite by concept' army, then it ought to be designed to smash most other armies. So, how do you capture that this should be one of the absolute best armies on the table, yet still make it competitive? If it's competitive, then it's not really elite? GW wrote itself into a corner when it didn't have to. The current design concept for KO, Fyreslayers, and Giants also suffer from a confined design space and why the battle tomes are ultimately unsatisfying - no matter how the particular volume plays out on the table. It's like NPE (to varying extents) has to be part of the design in order to make the concept behind the army work. None of them actually feel like a 'real' (ha!) army to me - because an army without ranged weapons, or cavalry, or actual infantry (KO), or some way to make up for the lack of such don't really seem to be an actual army. That's why Skaven are best.
I hope they allow ar least some aos models to play in old world. Skeletons for example (should they release vampire counts) would be perfect for both settings aside from the scale difference.
And could we use kislev and tomb Kings in aos with their own rules, maybe.
As a new aos player I am really enjoying the game, however I would love to see a lot of the factions get some more units as long as that faction isn't Stormcast, we really don't need another version of them in my opinion. 😊
that's a very good point. I also just started, and I am really irritated by how many armies there are with so many having a very small roster of units. And often many of those are just recycled old units or underworlds warbands. I would have loved to go all in on OBR but 1 hero is all they get until the next tome? That army would get bland after
5-10 games.
Skaven players still have to buy 90s models today 😭
Yeah, OBR is overtuned or undercosted everything considered.
Everybody saying "this is fiiiiine" are in a burning room
I'm sure many will disagree with me, and only time will tell if I'm right, but my read on this book is that this book is wildly WILDLY overpowered. I know it reads as fun and techy, and in the hands of a bad player, the book will perform poorly. However, if played with even just a modicum of skill, there are armies that just lose. Slow armies that can't shoot literally can't win against this book if both sides have average dice rolls. Also, and this isn't just an OBR problem, but this is yet another book stuffed full of abusive anti-fun NPE rules. It's tough because I don't want OBR to suck. It's a cool looking army, and conceptually, I want it to feel like an elite army. I just don't think it's good design to achieve that by making the game a genuinely bad, unfun 2 hours for your opponent.
I played against this as a combat army the other day and didn’t lift a single model. It was insane the amount of stickiness and healing that went through. Just as you said, if you don’t have a decent amount of shooting, tricks, or mobility you almost auto lose against these guys in some battle plans.
I don't think it is overpowered
I see a lot of people calling it B or C tier, and I think they are wrong
I think it is A tier
I think it needs more unit selection, but not more units in a list per se
More choices to chose to put in a list, but no point reductions
The points are high but so is the amount of rezzing (and rezzing on very tanky units, not ghoul and zombie cannon fodder)
Until they increase points in my experience of playing the army this is a 5-0 army.😅
👍👍
To Vince and Tyler I’m going to quote Tom” You guys have lost your damn minds”. You guys obviously haven’t played against bone daddies at the time of this video. The command points are way too many and Katakros get free command point. Why would their characters get free ones when the have so many? Another point for Tyler. You were complaining about Khorne blood tithe murder lust being too powerful and the very next book you guys review the bone daddies book totally canceled out what you were worried about. You can’t use it to engage them because they issue the command to retreat and charge!
I played blades of Khorne against the bone daddies and overall it wasn’t the best play experience. In fairness to you guys you said there would be some negative play experiences against this army. If I didn’t have murder rolls it would have been really bad. My regular attacks did very little damage due to his high saves. Katakros gave out bonuses and took away my command points. Their units got to do everything with abilities and all the command points. Then he brought them back. It sucks seeing 5 wound guys appear back on the table!
To be fair it was my first time playing the new Blades of Khorne book. Enjoyed the show as always and keep up the good work!
Units needed:
- Chariot (ranged attack + impact hits)
- Foot archers / Peltasts / Spear chuckers (if not the Tomb Kings archers, then the Roman Legionnaire equivalent)
- Khemri Sphinx -- new model and warscroll
Optional Units:
- Scarab Swarms (but AoS instead of Necron)
- Flying Pyramid (why not go full Necron?)
- Ushabti (with bows)
- Horse Archers
New Heroes (optional and not needed)
- Refigure one of the redundant Bonewizards to synergize with archers (like the Princess who gave Tomb King archers poison)
- Settra stand-in, including Chariot
- Hierophant --- a priest of Nagash
Null Myriad vs Tzeentch and Teclis and Kroak combined : Even bigger lol than if those mages faced new Khorne instead
On the Stormcast splosions:
I would rather they delete the rule and do a 5-10 pt drop on most units in the army
I hate this rule from the bottom of my heart
(If other armies want the splosions, they can have them, but I want 'em out of SCE)
Good show! Vince, why is it you'd hate to play these guys? Is it to do with their psychographic profile? (Which is what, by the way? Johny?)
I like many of the models (they're not my favourite, but I like them), but this book doesn't sound interesting to me at all. I guess I'm gradually working out what profile I am!
THey are a spike army for sure. I tend to play melee armies and don't like a static, replenishing fighting style.
@@VinceVenturella thanks... so this would suggest that I'm not (or not much of) a spike...