Affirmative Action for Americans? | Glenn Loury & Amy Wax [The Glenn Show]
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Amy wants to starve the higher ed beast 0:22
Do Americans need affirmative action for graduate school? 9:23
Glenn and Amy criticize undergraduate instruction 26:26
Amy: “There’s a certain degree of feminization that is going on as well” 35:46
How should students be graded during the pandemic? 38:27
Amy explains what we should and shouldn’t be doing during the pandemic 46:05
The Wuhan lab theory 1:01:50
Glenn Loury (Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs, Brown University) and Amy Wax (Race, Wrongs, and Remedies, University of Pennsylvania)
Recorded May 4, 2020
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![Truth, Justice, and Racial Equality | Edmund Santurri & Glenn Loury [The Glenn Show]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wURPweZ8xX4/mqdefault.jpg)
It's kind of crazy that somebody has to worry about saying american schools should prioritize american students hahah
Get rid of the Diversity Equity and Inclusion departments at colleges. They're completely unecessary.
Replace with Meritocratic departments.
John Denevi American applicants aren't the best because our system no longer promotes the best. So the applicants are well credentialed but not top talent.
@@Dubinski2382 I got news for you we never promoted the best. It’s always been the elite.
@@brainxtc2171 Well the elite used to expect their offspring to be the best.
Amy Wax is back! A really good guest.
Koreans are in competition with Koreans in Korea schools, but Americans are competing with the entire human race *in American schools.*
Zero Sum Game thinking. Some Korean immigrants to the US in grad school, or indian, or chinese, or whatever, tends to boost the rest of us because they pay more in taxes than the locals, and immigrants of that sort are overrepresented in business creation. You should not only look at one side of the ledger.
You clearly haven’t been out of the USA
@@Varlwyll So letting Elon Musk come into the US from South Africa to study was a mistake?
If you can't see the obvious flaw in only counting one side of the ledger there, you are lost.
ubuu7 - Mellowtron is definitely off base, but I believe you are missing Amy’s point, too. Irrespective of competition’s ability at making individuals better, the problem is that we are educating competitors to people of the United States. In most cases, that is not a big deal. The problem is, as always, it is the minority that creates the vast amount of pain (e.g. A few Chinese students, a few Russian students, etc.).
international students are less than 10% of the student population in most universities. You're looking for the wrong scapegoat
Man, I wish I was as articulate as Glenn
One of the smartest black men in America, which is why none of the "diversity" crowd have even heard of him.
"were"
@@classiqueliberal8576 they know of him. he has been ex communicated. not "black" enough.
@@classiqueliberal8576 correction: One of the smartest men in America! 🇺🇸
"Of course merit is important but..." This is how every proponent of affirmative action starts a sentence. But no no no, this isn't like affirmative action. That's something different. Sigh.
There is a massive distinction when it crosses international borders. One is that foreign students families didn't pay taxes to fund US infrastructure and schools. Second, when those students go home they are competing directly against the interests of the US and its citizens
My husband was doing part-time teaching at a college - engineering. A student (of the same ethnic group as my husband) didn't like his grade and wanted to do extra work to improve it. My husband gave him the extra work - the student didn't do it. So my husband didn't change the grade. The student complained and the next year the college didn't send my husband a renewal contract.
Glenn, your patience is incredible. It was killing me how long it took Amy to stumble onto the issue of nationalism as a reason to prioritize American students; it felt like you were leading her there for a good five minutes. It was akin to someone arguing against off-shoring without being able to come up with the assertion that domestic jobs are, you know, important.
She’s living in a dream world. Elite academic positions can and will be scaled down in the future. Good luck Amy.
Universities are paying people to find foreign students, Chinese for example, and offer them the opportunity to attend their schools. To everyone who thinks that there isn't a DEI aspect to that sort of recruitment, you must at least admit that adding additional competition for opportunities to attend these Universities for Citizens, is detrimental to the national interest. Can it simply be about money when there are plenty of students in the US capable of filling these positions and paying their way?
I think Amy has hit on some amazing points that the elite and the larger apparatus of this country fail to address appropriately. An amazing conversation on a couple of very important topics! I hope to hear more from Amy on the Glenn show. Thanks Glenn and Amy.
It is because international students pay on average three times as much tuition fees than American students. If a Chinese and an American bid for the same place but the Chinese mus pay three times the price then who do you think will get the place?
For example Arizona State University, in-state undergraduates pay $10,370, and international undergraduates pay $28,270 in base tuition and fees (2017). What do you think which student the university will pick?
Would vote for Amy Wax for president. Huge set of balls. An articulate Trump without the unscrupolous stuff
Crazy lady. Hypocrite too
@@akoben Everyone is a hypocrite in some way. Everyone is crazy that runs for president.
@@akoben Not if you understand real liberalism.
@@Madrrrrrrrrrrr yeah she's a liberal. Hates foreign competition
@@akoben You're not so smart. And you're not even a liberal. You're just trolling. Bye!
Combine coddling parenting with no grades and government backed loans and you get way too many people going to college and into debt. The pool of students ballooned, but the quality decreased. To absorb the increase in people and cash, otherwise largely useless departments like underwater basket weaving flourished. Now the overall reputation of education and its relative value has tanked IMO
The corrupt college system needs to be revamped. Endowments should be taxed and not tax deductible for donors. Public funding for colleges should be reduced and the money put into trade schools and apprentice programs. A massive decrease in foreign students and greater taxes put on them, i.e. impact fee.
Private colleges should not be considered "non-profit" and pay taxes. Students that attend these top elite schools should be funded by those elite schools rather than the taxpayer federal loan programs. Their endowments share their billions of dollars with lesser funded colleges (redistribution of their wealth).
American Universities should be educating American students not foreign students. This is especially true of the state schools because they were built using taxpayer dollars specifically to educate the taxpayers children.
I oppose affirmative action from the position of being *anti-racism/sexism.*
Decades ago, whites had a kind of affirmative action that tipped the scale in favor of whites and men. Now affirmative action tips the scale in favor of non-white non-men, in an attempt to undo the bigotry of the past.
But, crucially, *failing to realize that IT IS THE TIPPING OF THE SCALE THAT IS THE PROBLEM.*
The tipping of the scale is the bigotry, the sexism, the racism, so to imagine that present and future racism will somehow undo past racism, is so insane and absurd to me, especially when so many who support and erect affirmative action programs, and similar forced diversity measure, claim to he doing so on the spirit of anti-racism?!!!
Being racist today to undo racism of yesterday?
And it’s so terribly obvious.
I would 100% support an “America first” *American education system.*
I mean, apply this exact same logic to public schools, or even private elementary/high schools. The monied elite from across the globe have taken place of a subset of Americans in these largely tax payer funded institutions, while many Americans are lagging behind the migrant students. This seems like an absurd misuse of tax payer dollars and a fundamental misunderstanding of the justifications for taxation and government itself.
I would NOT say that there should be NO immigrant students in America period, I simply observe that it is a privilege not a right, to get an American education. And that the best way to get more Americans to become better educated is to make education more affordable, and to shrink the pool of their competition. The idea that Chinese students only compete with other Chinese folks, but American students compete with the smartest students OF ALL HUMANITY ACROSS THE GLOBE, clearly puts Americans at a distinct disadvantage on the global stage.
I am under no illusion that I have a right to an education in say India or Germany or Korea, even for money. I would fully expect these countries to give their own citizens a place ahead of me in that line. But American and many european universities are so prized on a global stage, that migrant students have become a key source of revenue for them. But I see this entirely different than “affirmative action” as affirmative action is used on biological lines, and no one is _biologically American or Korean or German._
Your nationality and citizenship status is nothing akin to your genetic phenotypes.
Ive always advocated for a kind of class based “affirmative action”. Giving the poor a leg up over the richest amongst us, the same logic applies much more clearly to giving Americans preferential treatment over non-citizen students. The same exact problem exists within the upper echelons of the STEM fields and those career paths. According to Eric Weinstein, the gate keepers of these sectors realized that they could essentially undercut American scientists and engineers, by importing more and more foreign students.
Eric emphasizes that access to your own countries economic and educational freedoms and privileges is something that is so rarely spoken of relative to how it is a basic human right that is continuously molested by the powers that be.
How.has it tipped into favor of minorities when whites are still mire likely to get resume callbacks?
I looked up Dr. Wax. 😳 she has lots of hit pieces on her. She seems to be no nonsense pragmatic but as Twain said common sense ain’t common no more.
I once got a D in college. It was for criticizing Gandhi.
You know that aint true
As Amy says, WASP men are the most under-represented group in the Ivy League and no one cares. Ron Unz's 2012 American Conservative article "The Myth of American Meritocracy" called attention to this problem. The numbers and trends, even then, are alarming and I imagine an updated take in 2020 would illuminate a worsening problem. Of course, few are interested in writing such a piece. It's not like Unz himself is an uncontroversial figure. Only those with little to lose are willing to advocate for WASP men. We have few friends.
I don't blame you. The administrations at colleges have lost their minds (and backbones). The good news is that this emergency (and it most definitely is) will be their downfall. Colleges are losing money because of this idiocy. Hopefully, this will push more men into entrepreneurship. It's got to. Your last sentence bothers me. This is only true in certain sections of academia. Don't believe it.
06:25 This lady is a classic example of the fine line between conservative values reflecting classic liberal principles, and bigotry as reflected in ethnocentrism at the expense of those very classic liberal principles. This lady falls dangerously in the latter. Betraying the fundamental value of meritocracy, she's actually in favor of affirmative action. Of course, however, only for the right demographic.
Funny it was "foreign" students until Loury called her out that she really means, quite specifically, Chinese students.
She's precisely the reason the leftists have the American ear at this point.
@CalvinSomething So are nationalist all moral relativists? If merit is no longer fundamental simply because she sees middle class white men
falling behind, how is she any different from the leftist advocating affirmative action to uplift American blacks.
Given her well known position on affirmative action and how she makes her argument in this timestamp, is she not, then, an ethno-nationalist. We know ethno--nats are moral relativists. Not exactly bona fide conservatives holding fast to principle and intellectual consistency. [Edit: sp}
@CalvinSomething. Let's be deadly honest here. If one has no problem in compromising principles (here, meritocracy, a basis of capitalism) merely in the name of protecting citizens, then one is a relativist.
Nothing wrong w/ wanting to protect citizens and nationalism in general. But let's be deadly honest on what she's willing, and not willing, to compromise. Lest guilty of blatant hypocracy, at least she ought not pretend to preach from principled and moral highground and certainty when it comes leftist social justice policies.
Hence, I repeat she dangerously appears reactionary and only shares, inconsistently, some conservative principles.
@CalvinSomething Let me make it simpler and easier to understand. Try to stay w/in the strict scope of what I've been saying in this entire thread. Vid's title is "Affirmative Action for Americans?" Her view on how to protect her preferred class is no different from those of the leftists re their favorites. The inconsistency undermines her arguments against leftist policies. From my ol' Poli Sci days, she resembles reactionaries.
(You might be using the term "moral relativism" as a term of art. Perhaps you are. I don't know. College was 20 years ago. When I use the term I simply mean that she's unprincipled and hypocritical. Her reasoning re affirmative action is "relative" to, dependent on, which class, ethnicity, and race.)
@CalvinSomething She's prioritizing the needs of only a select class of the nation, not the entire. Unless, of course, you likewise think the nation is represented one and only by her preferred class. Again, then, how is she (as it's becoming quite apparent that you are as well) any different from the Leftist Identitarians re affirmative action. (You mistake as desperation what's frustration at obtuseness.)
I would not want to be an international student in Wax's class. when she's so hostile to non-americans. Foreign students aren't stealing anything. They come to the US legally, pay expensive visa fees, pay several times more in tuition than american students, spend money while living here which helps american businesses. They compete with others fairly. They are competent and well behaved. It isn't like the southern border or the migrant crisis in Europe in which random group of people cross the border and take advantage of the welfare system. Foreign students are exactly the people you want to immigrate to the US. They also, I would argue, contribute to real diversity, not fake diversity in which people look different but think the same. Foreign students, unless from other anglophone countries, are rarely woke. They are there to study not for activism. Also, they are less than 10% of the student population in most universities. It's pure scapegoating to blame them for Americans not getting into colleges. In any case, why is she worried about white working class going to elite colleges when she thinks it's completely corrupted by the SJWs?
Gunyeop Lee I've been in her class...twice. She's probably the best teacher I've ever had. She absolutely pushes every student to be their best and cares more about each student than any professor I've come across. There is always a wait list for her smaller classes.
Foreign students are mostly nonwhite and taking white American spots that his why she's complaining.
I am a product of American Education and I was born and raised overseas. I have been living in the US for 30 years and I live and vote conservatively. She is very smart but extremely close minded when it comes to the purpose of the education institution. The teacher wants the best student in their classroom because they can elevate the learning experience to the highest level. The best student also wants the best teacher or college because they want to push themselves to the limits of their intellectual abilities. Foreign students pay full price and the majority of them have gone back to their home countries to help raised their educational standard. American is loosing the competitiveness because they were born into a comfort zone even for the poor American (still better than 90% of the world) while others cherish education as the path to get out of poverty. The percent of total graduation of the American grad students is around 22% while 78% belongs to foreigners. There are not enough American to attend graduate programs to make them feasible.
Our education system was very good until the late 1950's when a effort by the Left to take it over and "dumb it down". They won.
What does that say about a prof if he / she does not have the cojones to give Cs? Why would every student want to take the exact same classes that Amy wants to take? Math, I get it, that I don't get it. Want to see me start sweating, give me math. After high school I never had another math class and I have a Masters in Teaching English. A good friend of mine form Cameroon was amazed while studying here at the University of Michigan in Flint, Mi.. His quote, "Here I am from a so called 3rd world country in Africa and just about all the American students in my math classes looked to me for the answers. We were doing Math in High school in my country that they couldn't do in college here in the US." While studying for my masters in teaching English at the Univ of Illinois my friends were from Haiti, Russia and Venezuela, all studying Engineering. 75% of the engineering students were foreign. Let's not forget though, we have more & more American students studying abroad and in many cases not just for the education which is becoming more Americanized but also because it's much cheaper. An American journalist wrote an article a couple of years ago about what happens when European universities start offering top notch classes in their countries in ENGLISH taught by visiting native English speaking professors. Classes that are rigorous and much cheaper than in the US? When sitting with her European colleagues at conferences everyone would speak very good to excellent English and the minute she got up and walked away they went back to their native tongues. Just some thoughts. www.globally-agile.com/blog/relayed-6ddyl-wp7z5
Affirmative Action is racism. Poorly educated don't get the same chances? Blame the ones responsible, the overwhelmingly liberal Union educators who don't teach them to begin with. But don't punish someone who worked to get good grades, only to find out they aren't the right skin color to be considered.
Amy Wax for President.
Just look into what’s happened with the influence of the Chinese communist party in Australian Unis, including the influence on leftist ideology and politics.
Plus, we taxpayers fund the unis for our people, our technology and our culture.
If you want to have a private business enterprise, don’t ask for our money and resources!
Glen should listen to what Eric Weinstein has to say about foreign science grads...
The difference between "affirmative action" and "America-first" is the scope of the surrounding collective action problem. Black Americans ARE AMERICANS, and Americans can, in principle, leverage the federal government in defense of their shared interest in suppressing social parasites that exploit racial tension in order to win a country-scale Prisoner's Dilemma. That mechanism (global governance) does not exist at the international level and explains why we MUST protect and discriminate in favor our own citizens.
If you can't hand out a "C" grade, then how much of a difference in discerning the wheat from the chaff are you making by turning grading into pass / fail? If it's between handing out a 4.0 and 3.0, then turning it into a 0 or 1 isn't much of a difference. The real scandal is that Ivy league kids are getting a 3.0 or 4.0 with tuition.
Deus ExMachina, in my experience, every department in each college has its own standards and policies around grading. I’m in a math/science department, and we are tougher than the social “science” types.
@@npgibson69 A math or science test will have correct and incorrect answers. That I get. But maybe this is why 14 year old BA in English just gets more and more worthless. Everyone got the same worhtless accreditation
38:46 Glenn, you seemed intrigued by Daniel Markovits' ideas in your talk at Wellesley - have you had a chance to read his book? Would love to hear more of your thoughts on it, perhaps invite him onto the show?
Haven't read book. Good idea about invite. He and I had a lively exchange at Wellesley.
We need meritocracy, not affirmative action.
Did miss wax forget the effect of American tampering in these countries
Great conversation.
In many ways Amy Wax reminds me of Melanie Phillips.
Street Struck me too!
Why not be open to all comers? If there are enough colleges to go round, home students will find a programme to study on eventually. If they want to get on the top courses, they can compete with everyone else. Obviously they should be treated fairly and judged on merit and not on their sex or skin-colour. But I agree with Glenn that universities should be open.
James Kierstead Why not charge taxes to the world?
@@Dubinski2382 That might present some practical difficulties. But you can charge foreign students higher fees if it's funding you're worried about.
International students pay on average three times as much for tuition than Americans students. And that is of course the reason why universities prefer international students. They pay three times as much for the same product. Make a law that internationals students *must* pay the same as American ones and the universities will stop preferring international students.
For example Arizona State University, in-state undergraduates pay $10,370, and international undergraduates pay $28,270 in base tuition and fees (2017). Americans are not paying for their studies. International students bring a net 10 billion dollars to the US every year.
If they get money from America through grants and such then it is because they are exceptionally smart and US wants them to stay.
By the way. If an American wish to go to any university in Germany they can do it tuition free. You heard that right. German universities are free for international students.
Jim Crow was a form of affirmative action for whites Amy. The Homestead Act was a form of affirmative action for whites Amy.
If it weren’t for the women’s movement Wax wouldn’t even be teaching there or probably anywhere.
Wow, so Glenn admits that they basically do extra credit at Brown! (He did implicitly admit this)
eswyatt it’s just crazy it exists in the Ivy League. I went to a middle of the road public research type school, it’s interesting to think that what amounts to extra credit exists at both places.
i am shocked to hear people who are against Affirmative action( as i do as well) on principles of meritocracy then turn around and talk about protectionism when it comes to another arbitrary group. Second, these kinds are paying customers who are contributing to the host economies. Amy is making it sound like the US is doing these kids a favour by educating them. I got news for you, someone will take their money and educate them, if its not schools in the US, it'll be canada, europe, Aus etc
shes for meritocracy within the US but doesnt believe its fair for citizens to compete against non citizens when its the tax dollars of citizens that subsidize institutions
Gotta wonder why Glenn, or anyone, reads the NY Times
"Why I am not a conservative" by FA Hayek
You know the difference between a bad economist and a good economist. Nothing.
"Why doesn't Brazil produce better universities for their people?"
Comparative advantage maybe?
I'm glad he pushed back on her view that we should prioritize American students. It seems hypocritical to oppose affirmative action at the local level but then support affirmative action at the national level.
"A formula for long term unhappiness". Speak for yourself, woman.
Assumption is that America is more competitive academic research funding. Less convinced. For e.g. anyone can apply for European research funding so long as they are affiliated to an EU university (btw popn of Europe 2020 is 450m). But only US citizens/permanent residents can apply for most NIH funding (popn of USA: 330m). Enjoy Amy's contrarianism but on this topic she owes us the data
I like it when she says bullshit
This lady gets it. I wish there were more like her.
This lady has Jim Crow running deep in her blood and so do you🤡
Meritocracy should be global. If American students are unable or unwilling to compete against foreign students then so be it. This is about the advancement of the human race. The best of the best.
This is good, Glenn. I will let my son who is 14 look at the stuff in this episode so he knows what he is up against.
"Against" is personified in Amy Wax.
My son is black and a year ahead. He will graduate at 17, a year early. The "cover" to his "book" would be read by the likes of Professor Wax as "...prove the contents..." before she read the contents.
(The above is just my impression of her.
I have actually watched talks, speaches, and 3 Glenn Show interviews. She has not convinced me that she would be able to deal with undergrads or anyone who is not a genius of some sort.)
I expect my son to contend for an Ivy when the time comes. I will steer him clear of Penn.
I don't think the professor is too off base, btw, but...she must be an acquired taste. An adult beverage for sure...
🔺🔺
In California we could solve the homeless/housing shortage problem by using dormitories as housing til colleges reopen.
These people live is a bubble. With no students, their bubble will deflate! ( spoke too soon....Glenn is in the bubble, Amy is bringing reality)
#RolandFryer
Affirmative action is a subject I have mixed feelings about. I feel that the application of it would be best used to help American black people gain access to the halls of power and decision making tables. Black faces in executive, C-suite leadership positions is lacking. Gaining more access to those halls of power would provide a trickle down effect that would eliminate the idea that affirmative action for American blacks is needed.
Plenty of US students study abroad.
True. However the inflows and outflows aren't congruent. This is like saying during the pandemic, 'there are US manufacturers of the raw materials for drugs'. The oversight is that the vast majority of these resources are imported. Look at both the absolute and relative numbers of foreign students in the west vs those in the east and comment on those disparities.