I agree with what you said about para and it still appliea to the newer gens since im always getting haxxed and losing over someone clicking a single move.
My personal friend Ryan Gosling once told me the following statement: "Clefable is more than Kenough in DPP OU, it is a Top 3 Pokémon in fact. It shall not be banned though. Just let Clefable be the Greatest of All Time. Also, watch BKC's movie! It's good!"
Video idea: What if Eviolite existed in Gen 2-4? Similar to some theorycrafting what if videos you've done in the past with megas in early gens, but with the limited held item choices in the earlier gens it could be a cool thought experiment to figure out what NFEs could be OU viable with the addition of Eviolite. Off the top of my head I'd imagine GSC Chansey with it would be taking laughable damage from most attacks and would make no item Thief mons a necessity.
Forget should it be banned from OU, it and Dug can still do the same toxic shit that got Dug banned from OU… *in UU*. When DPP UU was on the RoA ladder a couple months ago, it was shocking to me that combo was still allowed, let alone either one. I know this has a lot to do with it being an old metagame and Gen 4 being the first gen to do tiering via usage, but honestly they should go the route of ADV and bump Clef to OU.
Clefable is a cheating pokemon, but I wouldn't ban it personally. I'd argue it isn't as much magic Guard on its own that makes it oppressive its the movepool that makes it that way. So I understand why people would want to get rid of it but I'd argue that Iron Head is more problematic in the tier.
The problem I see with clef is how easy it is to stonewall/deal with the Pokémon that threaten it by only adding one (maybe two) teammates. Makes it so hard to kill it when you’re playing a good player
They already have their own meta warping Scald-like, it's called Body Slam. But seriously, Body Slam and how it warps the RBY meta around Normals like Tauros and Snorlax would be something neat to talk about from time to time.
Resisted by water and can’t inflict burn on them ru at best (Ironically, water being immune to Scald burns wakes it better than it would be, because you can’t accidentally make Starmie Paralysis immune. Also, it burns Fire types in this gen lol.)
BKC repeats over and over again that offense teams have a million ways to deal with Clefable but then doesn't mention what a single one is. His words may be true, but the argument is not laid out in a convincing way.
Short Answer: No I do think it's hilarious that a Pokemon rated as UU is up for consideration from an OU banning. Though it just goes to show how good abilities and moves(along with a versatile typing) can push some of those more overlooked lower tiers as far as even Ubers in the right circumstances, but rating based on usage statistics will do that from time to time.
Ratings freeze when the gen is no longer the current one, but old metas still develop and Clef being a powerful OU mon thanks to future player developments despite being UU in Gen 4's final days are showing why that freeze can be flawed.
what do you think about the cloy/volc stuff in BW OU ? I do think if we gonna ban those we should get ambitious and actually try reworking the tier. imo they're not that bad, such offense might be cheesy in ladder games and bo1 and limit the teambuilding but seriously? it's clear there is a certain "queasiness" about the tier and we should do something about it but how and with what approach?
And when Clef is uber, players going to cry about nidoqueens impact with (toxic) spikes being absolutely broken because they cant rely on Clef to be immune to it, so passive damage is too broken and the third not OU member of Clefstall teams need to be axed.
most of the best DPP pokemon dont even get hit by T spikes though. Latias Cancerrachi Skarmory Clef Flygon Gyara Meta Breloom Heatran Rotom. Probably more that I cant remember right off the top of my head
I'm not invested enough in playing the tier personally to feel like I have the most informed opinion, but I do feel like the "pick a lane" argument with respect to full paralysis can go both ways - it can apply to people who hate paralysis but are mad there's a mon that ignores the most broken part of it, but I also think the sentiment can apply to the game from the perspective of players- as in, why does Clefable get special treatment/immunity to a fundamental, ubiquitous, *chance-based* part of the game that affects everything else, for better or for worse? You could make that argument for crit-immunity abilities as well, but I think having a chance to deal/receive extra damage (which is something everyone is trying to play around 100% of the time) is a bit less devastating than losing an entire turn while already most likely being at a disadvantage due to your mon being slower than it would normally be.
While somewhat constricting not as constricting as clef or Raichi IMO. Plenty of things wall it outright and many just force it out. While sleep talk is kinda ass it´s still a option to put on nearly every banded mon aswell. The defensive sub set is definetly a nightmare to deal with in simplified gamestates though.
I have an idea for a video, feel free to roast me: "Human relationships seen as Raikou in gen3 ou". If you overestimate and rely too much in one person, you do a billion favours to him/her,you might get disappointed; if you hang out easily with him/her sometimes, you have a good time without getting disappointed. The same is with Raikou: if you rely too much in him sweeping late game you get disappointed, but if you throw him mid game launching attacks without relying too much on him for a sweep, you'll have a good time
I've been thinking, competitiveness by itself, with other variables controlled perfectly, is usually considered a negative in game design, since it basically means beginners are less likely to win, with no other benefit. What balances things is out is pokemon being a strategy game, where uncompetitive often implies unfun for one or both players. In essence we are looking for a "fun" metagame, but though the fake objective lens of competitiveness. This may work or may fall on its face like with Gen8 OU or DLC1.
@@BKCplaysPokemon True, but the goal of good multiplayer game design should be maximize the win rate of beginners without hurting the fun of the game in my opinion.
Now I would agree if you wanted to optimise a game for competition your position makes sense. But in other games like basketball there are rules that are in place purely to make the game more fun to watch. For example the shot clock was added because a team managed to beat the best team in the league by getting one point ahead and then playing keep away for the rest of the game resulting in the lowest scoring NBA game in history. So if certain people wanted to make DPP ou an esport some rules to improve the spectator experience may be necessary
Isn't there any strong fighting types that can rise to hard counter Clefable? I figure that Machamp could be a fun option. If a No Guard Machamp comes in, Clefable has to switch out or feel the full might of the superpower Pokémon's Dynamic Punch!
the complaints are still less stupid than me, who complained in swsh little cup current gen that natu should be banned because it speed tied mienfoo (atp a majority of the pivots speed tied and threatened each other). foo maybe too restricting, natu not even close
What’s your opinion on the gholdengo discussion in Gen 9? I think it’s good that the hazards discussion is finally being discussed. I know I’m wrong, but I’d rather ban hazards over gholdengo since I believe hazards have been used a blanket soft check for far too long and hinder metas more than they help.
Gholdengo is built like Jirachi when you think about it. Not broken to the point of being quickbanned like Magearna but the ability and typing is annoying.
I’m pretty sure iirc we experimented with a hazard free meta game in Gen 5 (along with the Clear Skies and Dream World metas, Gen 5 OMs were so interesting). But I don’t think it really caught on because as anyone knows, mons like Volc became oppressive. Hazards did used to check a lot of things prior to HDB, but that doesn’t make them broken. They are really annoying in Gen 9, where a broad range of Defoggers are completely invalidated by Ghold. Sometimes I wish “makes the game significantly less enjoyable” was a valid complaint for banning something lol.
@@michaelballack3051”I know I’m wrong”. I get it. You love leading lando and clicking rocks but I’d rather not have passive damage on switch be what keeps my meta balanced.
Hey BKC just a quick question: when you refer to people who "don't play the tier," do players who only play ladder (but not tours) for a tier count as playing?
Normal BKC video. Title presents a question, then the video is 20+ minutes of why that question is dumb. I'll never understand why people who don't play a tier much or aren't invested in it at all still insist upon getting involved in its discourse
I think the argument of things being boring does hold some degree of importance even in a competitive setting, as people need to enjoy watching/playing for a competitive scene to even exist. Not to say I think clef should be banned, just wanted to say I personally do disagree with that one point. It's not largely important for singles, since it has no real official scene but fun factor is important.
I would definitely take clefable over the over abundance of power creep we have im gen 9. I would love to see more strong Pokémon who aren’t legendary or mythic and have higher base stat spreads or abillities and typing to help against those higher base stat Pokémon. I want to see a generation where most pokemon can be somewhat viable because the base stat gap isnt as outrageous the current generation. Also This has nothing to do with the overall topic but To answer your question i dont watch movies. But them movie recaps are my favorites.
Clefable has honestly ruined DPP OU for me. It’s almost unbreakable as long as it has a few decent teammates (such as starmie for gliscor), and slows every battle it’s in to a crawl. I don’t mind longer battles, but when clefable is making the tier slightly annoying at best and migraine inducing at worst, is it even worth keeping?
I think both Hazards are a constant issue plus Clefable is close to if not an issue. It's broken fighting broken, just the tier has some allowance for brokenness. We have things in MtG called removal or such that can be used to fight broken creatures but "dies to removal" is one of the dumbest antiban reasons as you both have to have the removal and you sometimes hurt other matchups doing so. If Aggro is forced to build itself in such a way to beat Clef that it either loses or makes itself less viable elsewhere that's a big sign Clef's an issue to me I can't agree with looking at like Gyarados as justification for considering other bans or not, that feels like giving a pass due to issues in the system and the players being human over looking irrespective at Clef or any other ban consideration
How can you say reasons you hear are conflicting, then justify Clef as it checking broken stuff after saying you're not for broken checking broken as a reason to not ban? The obvious solution is to hit Clef and some of the threats too
@@BKCplaysPokemon if they'd be an issue if Clef was banned aren't they though? I'm usually anti-Hazards so Clef would normally feel like my type of tier addition but I'm being told Clef keeps these things in check yet neither Clef is broken nor the things it checks are broken if unchecked, that doesn't compute for me as why have the check then over another Mon? If anything this video has made me more for banning a thing I'd normally be all for
like I said in the video, they weren't issues before clef was used, and they wouldn't be issues if clef was banned. it's more to illustrate that people used to complain about them, and then clef rose to answer them, and now people complain about clef because they can't use them to beat it.
@@BKCplaysPokemon I think that's kind of hypothetical unless the meta hasn't evolved much otherwise, though so is mine that they'll be issues I admit. People say that all the time in other games, then we ban stuff and the meta ends up in a place nobody expected based on what it was prior. I will say Pokemon has the strength of not adding new entities but things can still have changed
Based on what you said about gen 3, I think they should unban dugtrio. It’s the perfect litmus test for how balanced a tier is. Banning dug is like banning Ditto
Tiering arguments looking to reduce the skill ceiling of a competitive game, such a weird reality to live in. If those new players are so interested in gen 4 they could learn the tier or build their own. Heck, if their opinions matter so much why don't the people championing them concede them their votes? Maybe even remove voting recs! Branch out from Smogon or something! Yisus I'm dumbfounded.
Grown men also play Chess. Grown men also play Tetris. Grown men even play with Barbie Dolls. As per personal friend of the channel, Ryan Gosling, would say "They're Kenough!" Piss-take aside, to give some actual context instead of memeing: DPP refers to the fourth generation of Pokémon and OU is the standard competitive tier (within an actual tiering system) as per the website, Smogon, and as is played on Pokémon Showdown. The world's a weird, wonderful place and what games garner a competitive scene will always amaze the soul.
@@pseudonym6895 Chess and Tetris are for intellectual adults. I've see a man play with dolls once in a movie - Conair. Never seen it elsewhere. "They're Kenough!" I do not have a clue what you're talking about. There is a competitive tier? Wow. *world is
@@incumbentvinyl9291 The first half of that comment was also thorough shits & giggles so don't worry too much if that means nowt t'ya. Kenough is a thing from that recent Barbie film; literally just a portmanteau of Ken & enough. And yes, this is actually one of several tiers that can be found under the Smogon system. Being as popular as it is, Pokémon will inevitably attract a crowd where they'll try to make the most of the games and there has been multiple places for this over the years. Also, "world's" was completely fine there; it's simply a contraction of "world is."
@@pseudonym6895 ''literally just a portmanteau of Ken & enough'' That I did get. Just didn't make the Barbie connection. Haven't seen the movie, nor did I know the actors. ''Also, "world's" was completely fine there; it's simply a contraction of "world is."'' Incorrect. Example: The world's countries. It's possessive. It can not be a contraction of ''world is'', that's not how the English language works.
I get the sentiment that Clef is annoying, not spectator friendly and brings a snail's pace to matches. But BKC is right. Does that make Clef bad for the competitive environment? No, not really
Smogon really creates troubles for itself. Stall mons that don't have sturdy, like clefable and blissey, would be easy to breakthrough with OHKO moves. The actual game has an all together different rhythm from smogon.
If you gotta rely on a 30% accurate move to break something, that's speaks volumes on how good it is. A part of me wishes OHKO moves were legal, but I get that it's just not fun to play against (neither is Clefable)
@@rjante2236 Clefable is annoying only because most of it's answers are banned. 30% is acceptable because there is the possibility to make progress, unlike damaging moves which just reduces some PP of softboiled. Besides a dedicated OHKO mon would require no offensive EV investment, and thus can play a defensive role as well as the role of a wallbreaker.
@user-ts1gy9mj7q every team just becomes stall mons with OHKO moves, clicking it every single turn regardless of whatever adaptation you make. If you truly think OHKO moves are healthy idk then
Original Clef video: ruclips.net/video/8oDJXe6VrVw/видео.html&ab_channel=BKC
I agree with what you said about para and it still appliea to the newer gens since im always getting haxxed and losing over someone clicking a single move.
My personal friend Ryan Gosling once told me the following statement: "Clefable is more than Kenough in DPP OU, it is a Top 3 Pokémon in fact. It shall not be banned though. Just let Clefable be the Greatest of All Time. Also, watch BKC's movie! It's good!"
Can’t believe I said that
@@Blibetyblabla you sure did, Mister Gosling. Remember!
Once upon a time, Clef and Dug were just UU staples. Now one of them is Uber, and people want the other to follow
I mean, dug is still legal in uu
Is this yuri?
This is why old gens are metal as fuck
Clef was at its best in RBY imo. It may not have Knock Off or Magic Guard or the Fairy typing, BUT it's making the :3 face and that's just perfect.
Youve heard of "GSC is Stall" get ready for "DPP is Stall"
dpp stall is much better than gsc stall tho
DPP had the second shortest average game length last SPL
The rise of Clefable is hilarious because it doesn't just get better in newer gens it gets better in almost every gen with time
Video idea: What if the dpp OU by technicality mons dropped to UU.
Man if people are seriously debating banning Clef from OU before anything gets done about Jirachi....
Jirachi is pretty skill-less but with bronzong, heatran, and metagross on every team it’s not broken
They’re just the 2 most annoying Pokemon in this tier, maybe we should do something on both of them
most teams have 0 of those mon, let alone 3@@PastPerspectives11
@@PastPerspectives11if you need 2 mons min to check a parahax rng fiend, it’s time to take a look at things
The council can sneed and make freeze clause to cope with Jirachi hax but you can't have Clef because BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T OK
Immunity to status and hazard ? In the year of our lord 2008 ? Punt it to ubers.
Leftovers is the fkin best item ever, look at that Metagross surviving all those turns
Truly wonderful
Meanwhile Jirachi the RNG pokemon walks around in DPP OU abusing cheap tactics and everyone seems fine with it
Would be more fine if it could get revenged by dug, wait a minute...
"There is no place for fun in DPP OU"
- a direct quote from long time stall advocate and gene 5 Keldeo supporter BKC
When people realized how strong Magic Guard was in ORAS OU, Clefable became more and more popular in other tiers, mainly DPP OU and BW OU.
Video idea: What if Eviolite existed in Gen 2-4? Similar to some theorycrafting what if videos you've done in the past with megas in early gens, but with the limited held item choices in the earlier gens it could be a cool thought experiment to figure out what NFEs could be OU viable with the addition of Eviolite. Off the top of my head I'd imagine GSC Chansey with it would be taking laughable damage from most attacks and would make no item Thief mons a necessity.
Man clefable does indeed eat well. They don't even need the fairy type
Forget should it be banned from OU, it and Dug can still do the same toxic shit that got Dug banned from OU… *in UU*. When DPP UU was on the RoA ladder a couple months ago, it was shocking to me that combo was still allowed, let alone either one.
I know this has a lot to do with it being an old metagame and Gen 4 being the first gen to do tiering via usage, but honestly they should go the route of ADV and bump Clef to OU.
Clefable is a cheating pokemon, but I wouldn't ban it personally. I'd argue it isn't as much magic Guard on its own that makes it oppressive its the movepool that makes it that way. So I understand why people would want to get rid of it but I'd argue that Iron Head is more problematic in the tier.
BKC talking to himself is my ASMR sleep aid
The problem I see with clef is how easy it is to stonewall/deal with the Pokémon that threaten it by only adding one (maybe two) teammates. Makes it so hard to kill it when you’re playing a good player
You should make an April fools video about how bad Scald would be in RBY
They already have their own meta warping Scald-like, it's called Body Slam.
But seriously, Body Slam and how it warps the RBY meta around Normals like Tauros and Snorlax would be something neat to talk about from time to time.
Resisted by water and can’t inflict burn on them ru at best
(Ironically, water being immune to Scald burns wakes it better than it would be, because you can’t accidentally make Starmie Paralysis immune. Also, it burns Fire types in this gen lol.)
BKC repeats over and over again that offense teams have a million ways to deal with Clefable but then doesn't mention what a single one is. His words may be true, but the argument is not laid out in a convincing way.
fair enough, but I think it's also very self-evident
Short Answer: No
I do think it's hilarious that a Pokemon rated as UU is up for consideration from an OU banning. Though it just goes to show how good abilities and moves(along with a versatile typing) can push some of those more overlooked lower tiers as far as even Ubers in the right circumstances, but rating based on usage statistics will do that from time to time.
Ratings freeze when the gen is no longer the current one, but old metas still develop and Clef being a powerful OU mon thanks to future player developments despite being UU in Gen 4's final days are showing why that freeze can be flawed.
what do you think about the cloy/volc stuff in BW OU ? I do think if we gonna ban those we should get ambitious and actually try reworking the tier.
imo they're not that bad, such offense might be cheesy in ladder games and bo1 and limit the teambuilding but seriously? it's clear there is a certain "queasiness" about the tier and we should do something about it but how and with what approach?
Great vid as usual, thanks BKC, it's always a pleasure hearing your thoughts
And when Clef is uber, players going to cry about nidoqueens impact with (toxic) spikes being absolutely broken because they cant rely on Clef to be immune to it, so passive damage is too broken and the third not OU member of Clefstall teams need to be axed.
most of the best DPP pokemon dont even get hit by T spikes though. Latias Cancerrachi Skarmory Clef Flygon Gyara Meta Breloom Heatran Rotom. Probably more that I cant remember right off the top of my head
If Froslass can be banned for doing next to nothing then clef should defo be on the the radar with jirachi
2:37
Jimothy: That take is INSANE!
This is godly timing for me, I listened to the whole Clefable video not too long ago.
Hello sir, please make a video on the tragedy that is SpeedPass not being banned in ADV OU
I'm not invested enough in playing the tier personally to feel like I have the most informed opinion, but I do feel like the "pick a lane" argument with respect to full paralysis can go both ways - it can apply to people who hate paralysis but are mad there's a mon that ignores the most broken part of it, but I also think the sentiment can apply to the game from the perspective of players- as in, why does Clefable get special treatment/immunity to a fundamental, ubiquitous, *chance-based* part of the game that affects everything else, for better or for worse? You could make that argument for crit-immunity abilities as well, but I think having a chance to deal/receive extra damage (which is something everyone is trying to play around 100% of the time) is a bit less devastating than losing an entire turn while already most likely being at a disadvantage due to your mon being slower than it would normally be.
Smogon loves stall
Do you have a opinion on spore in DPP ou? I honestly think Breloom is far more constricting in the team builder than Clef or Raichi imo
While somewhat constricting not as constricting as clef or Raichi IMO. Plenty of things wall it outright and many just force it out. While sleep talk is kinda ass it´s still a option to put on nearly every banded mon aswell. The defensive sub set is definetly a nightmare to deal with in simplified gamestates though.
Hold on, was that a Walrein in DPP OU? That’s a weird ass niche
it's hard to kill in Hail
Bro has never heard of stallrein. Stallrein the funniest thing to ever exist.@@ShinyTillDawn
Frosslass banned, clef being thought about, but Rachi doing the jiggy
I have an idea for a video, feel free to roast me: "Human relationships seen as Raikou in gen3 ou". If you overestimate and rely too much in one person, you do a billion favours to him/her,you might get disappointed; if you hang out easily with him/her sometimes, you have a good time without getting disappointed. The same is with Raikou: if you rely too much in him sweeping late game you get disappointed, but if you throw him mid game launching attacks without relying too much on him for a sweep, you'll have a good time
I've been thinking, competitiveness by itself, with other variables controlled perfectly, is usually considered a negative in game design, since it basically means beginners are less likely to win, with no other benefit.
What balances things is out is pokemon being a strategy game, where uncompetitive often implies unfun for one or both players. In essence we are looking for a "fun" metagame, but though the fake objective lens of competitiveness. This may work or may fall on its face like with Gen8 OU or DLC1.
beginners SHOULD be less likely to win, though. it's a competitive game!
@@BKCplaysPokemon True, but the goal of good multiplayer game design should be maximize the win rate of beginners without hurting the fun of the game in my opinion.
I member using clefable in UU on shoddy battle. Good times
Now I would agree if you wanted to optimise a game for competition your position makes sense.
But in other games like basketball there are rules that are in place purely to make the game more fun to watch.
For example the shot clock was added because a team managed to beat the best team in the league by getting one point ahead and then playing keep away for the rest of the game resulting in the lowest scoring NBA game in history.
So if certain people wanted to make DPP ou an esport some rules to improve the spectator experience may be necessary
Isn't there any strong fighting types that can rise to hard counter Clefable? I figure that Machamp could be a fun option. If a No Guard Machamp comes in, Clefable has to switch out or feel the full might of the superpower Pokémon's Dynamic Punch!
Unrelated but I came to Gary's usage of metagross. Metagross lasting and being healthy for that long was chef's kiss 👌🏾
thanks for the lecture prof bkc
The real reason BKC likes long stally games is that they let him make 2 hour long analysis videos for the channel, and god knows we all watch those
Gholdengo is kind of like DPP Jirachi and Clefable where it isn't broken but it's ability, typing, and movepool is really annoying.
i'm pretty sure that was the first bkc video i watched
the complaints are still less stupid than me, who complained in swsh little cup current gen that natu should be banned because it speed tied mienfoo (atp a majority of the pivots speed tied and threatened each other). foo maybe too restricting, natu not even close
kino prediction 4 years in the making
I’ve only watched the Original Clef Video around 10x. (It’s a good one to fall asleep to)
What’s your opinion on the gholdengo discussion in Gen 9? I think it’s good that the hazards discussion is finally being discussed. I know I’m wrong, but I’d rather ban hazards over gholdengo since I believe hazards have been used a blanket soft check for far too long and hinder metas more than they help.
Pls play competitive pokemon before speaking nonsense
Gholdengo is built like Jirachi when you think about it. Not broken to the point of being quickbanned like Magearna but the ability and typing is annoying.
I’m pretty sure iirc we experimented with a hazard free meta game in Gen 5 (along with the Clear Skies and Dream World metas, Gen 5 OMs were so interesting). But I don’t think it really caught on because as anyone knows, mons like Volc became oppressive.
Hazards did used to check a lot of things prior to HDB, but that doesn’t make them broken. They are really annoying in Gen 9, where a broad range of Defoggers are completely invalidated by Ghold. Sometimes I wish “makes the game significantly less enjoyable” was a valid complaint for banning something lol.
Look at gen 8 ou. It’s basically a hazards-free metagame.. and it takes forever to kill anything
@@michaelballack3051”I know I’m wrong”.
I get it. You love leading lando and clicking rocks but I’d rather not have passive damage on switch be what keeps my meta balanced.
Still think Stealth Rock in Gen 4 to limiting
But thats just my take
I've never heard that nickname for jirachi before!
Hey BKC just a quick question: when you refer to people who "don't play the tier," do players who only play ladder (but not tours) for a tier count as playing?
Normal BKC video. Title presents a question, then the video is 20+ minutes of why that question is dumb. I'll never understand why people who don't play a tier much or aren't invested in it at all still insist upon getting involved in its discourse
Not even being facetious but did you pick clef vs clef wars for your replays in the background
Clef being good = Lucario stonks
I think the argument of things being boring does hold some degree of importance even in a competitive setting, as people need to enjoy watching/playing for a competitive scene to even exist. Not to say I think clef should be banned, just wanted to say I personally do disagree with that one point. It's not largely important for singles, since it has no real official scene but fun factor is important.
I would definitely take clefable over the over abundance of power creep we have im gen 9. I would love to see more strong Pokémon who aren’t legendary or mythic and have higher base stat spreads or abillities and typing to help against those higher base stat Pokémon. I want to see a generation where most pokemon can be somewhat viable because the base stat gap isnt as outrageous the current generation. Also This has nothing to do with the overall topic but To answer your question i dont watch movies. But them movie recaps are my favorites.
It only should be allowed on bw ou because is ok there!
Clefable has honestly ruined DPP OU for me. It’s almost unbreakable as long as it has a few decent teammates (such as starmie for gliscor), and slows every battle it’s in to a crawl. I don’t mind longer battles, but when clefable is making the tier slightly annoying at best and migraine inducing at worst, is it even worth keeping?
I think both Hazards are a constant issue plus Clefable is close to if not an issue. It's broken fighting broken, just the tier has some allowance for brokenness. We have things in MtG called removal or such that can be used to fight broken creatures but "dies to removal" is one of the dumbest antiban reasons as you both have to have the removal and you sometimes hurt other matchups doing so. If Aggro is forced to build itself in such a way to beat Clef that it either loses or makes itself less viable elsewhere that's a big sign Clef's an issue to me
I can't agree with looking at like Gyarados as justification for considering other bans or not, that feels like giving a pass due to issues in the system and the players being human over looking irrespective at Clef or any other ban consideration
How can you say reasons you hear are conflicting, then justify Clef as it checking broken stuff after saying you're not for broken checking broken as a reason to not ban? The obvious solution is to hit Clef and some of the threats too
because neither clef nor the stuff it checks are broken
@@BKCplaysPokemon if they'd be an issue if Clef was banned aren't they though? I'm usually anti-Hazards so Clef would normally feel like my type of tier addition but I'm being told Clef keeps these things in check yet neither Clef is broken nor the things it checks are broken if unchecked, that doesn't compute for me as why have the check then over another Mon? If anything this video has made me more for banning a thing I'd normally be all for
like I said in the video, they weren't issues before clef was used, and they wouldn't be issues if clef was banned. it's more to illustrate that people used to complain about them, and then clef rose to answer them, and now people complain about clef because they can't use them to beat it.
@@BKCplaysPokemon I think that's kind of hypothetical unless the meta hasn't evolved much otherwise, though so is mine that they'll be issues I admit. People say that all the time in other games, then we ban stuff and the meta ends up in a place nobody expected based on what it was prior. I will say Pokemon has the strength of not adding new entities but things can still have changed
I have never played dpp ou in my life, but I agree
crazy loss for garythegengar
what if para were burn but speed?
Short answer- No
Long answer- No
I say we do it, for the funny
YES
Based on what you said about gen 3, I think they should unban dugtrio. It’s the perfect litmus test for how balanced a tier is. Banning dug is like banning Ditto
Tiering arguments looking to reduce the skill ceiling of a competitive game, such a weird reality to live in. If those new players are so interested in gen 4 they could learn the tier or build their own. Heck, if their opinions matter so much why don't the people championing them concede them their votes? Maybe even remove voting recs! Branch out from Smogon or something! Yisus I'm dumbfounded.
Grown men play Pokemon?
''DPP OU'' - What the fuck is going on here?!
Grown men also play Chess.
Grown men also play Tetris.
Grown men even play with Barbie Dolls.
As per personal friend of the channel, Ryan Gosling, would say "They're Kenough!"
Piss-take aside, to give some actual context instead of memeing:
DPP refers to the fourth generation of Pokémon and OU is the standard competitive tier (within an actual tiering system) as per the website, Smogon, and as is played on Pokémon Showdown. The world's a weird, wonderful place and what games garner a competitive scene will always amaze the soul.
@@pseudonym6895 Chess and Tetris are for intellectual adults. I've see a man play with dolls once in a movie - Conair. Never seen it elsewhere.
"They're Kenough!"
I do not have a clue what you're talking about.
There is a competitive tier? Wow.
*world is
@@incumbentvinyl9291 The first half of that comment was also thorough shits & giggles so don't worry too much if that means nowt t'ya. Kenough is a thing from that recent Barbie film; literally just a portmanteau of Ken & enough.
And yes, this is actually one of several tiers that can be found under the Smogon system. Being as popular as it is, Pokémon will inevitably attract a crowd where they'll try to make the most of the games and there has been multiple places for this over the years.
Also, "world's" was completely fine there; it's simply a contraction of "world is."
@@pseudonym6895 ''literally just a portmanteau of Ken & enough''
That I did get. Just didn't make the Barbie connection. Haven't seen the movie, nor did I know the actors.
''Also, "world's" was completely fine there; it's simply a contraction of "world is."''
Incorrect.
Example: The world's countries.
It's possessive. It can not be a contraction of ''world is'', that's not how the English language works.
@@incumbentvinyl9291 competitive pokemon is for intelectual adults too
no
Is lickilicly good?
Nah. That’s Rachi dude. So I can actually play that meta without wanting to off myself.
yes
I get the sentiment that Clef is annoying, not spectator friendly and brings a snail's pace to matches.
But BKC is right. Does that make Clef bad for the competitive environment? No, not really
Clef is fun but its not broken. Just trick it with a choice item and corner it. I'm as green as grass and I know that. These people are so silly
BKC
ok but Jirachi?
dug got latias'd free dug ban clef
nah, complex ban iron head on jirachi
I think we should raid GameFreak's HQ and delete Clefable and it's evolutionary line forever from new games and retroactively from old games
Clef should no be banned. It's part of Gen4 OUs very identity.
Smogon really creates troubles for itself. Stall mons that don't have sturdy, like clefable and blissey, would be easy to breakthrough with OHKO moves. The actual game has an all together different rhythm from smogon.
If you gotta rely on a 30% accurate move to break something, that's speaks volumes on how good it is. A part of me wishes OHKO moves were legal, but I get that it's just not fun to play against (neither is Clefable)
@@rjante2236 Clefable is annoying only because most of it's answers are banned. 30% is acceptable because there is the possibility to make progress, unlike damaging moves which just reduces some PP of softboiled. Besides a dedicated OHKO mon would require no offensive EV investment, and thus can play a defensive role as well as the role of a wallbreaker.
@user-ts1gy9mj7q every team just becomes stall mons with OHKO moves, clicking it every single turn regardless of whatever adaptation you make. If you truly think OHKO moves are healthy idk then
Ban Iron Head Jirachi
the lack of color in the thumbnail is a poignant statement
18:45 Both "fun" and "competitive" are subjective buzzwords. In either case, most people use it as "thing I like".
YES
YES