This was the most understandable and clear conversation of yours that I have heard in the three years of listening to the podcast here and on Spotify. I like the simple and efficient conversation between you and that way I understand a specific topic well (more than in interviews with athletes who share their experience and method in an interesting way but not very useful for the program of a rider who listens) I would be happy if you could do a series like this on basic concepts up to advanced concepts, with the interviewer enriching the answers of the interviewee and maybe sometimes you switch roles because you both explain in an excellent and understandable way.
Low gear / torque work is done be athletes in different disciplines with very specific goal in mind: muscular endurance and fatigue resistance. It can be done at threshold or tempo wattage intervals (even Zone 2, as seen with Kwiato). There is video of Wout van Aert explaining that he does torque work to lower his VLamax. Some athletes need more torque work than others depending on their goal. The primary goal is to stimulate your slow and mid fibres to absorb bigger work load without tapping in to glycolytic system too much which helps with spring your glycogen reserves. Basically if your weakness is fatigue resistance and muscular fatigue specifically torque work allows you to target that without taxing your whole metabolic system so you can do more of it. Then when you do threshold intervals during build phase you are less limited by your muscular endurance
My coach called this low cadence technique "weight lifting on the bike" I live in an area that is flat on the coast in Southern Ca. in the afternoon there is a constant wind blowing in off the ocean. I use this wind to my advantage by grinding out of the saddle in the biggest gear possible into the headwind for miles at a time, super low cadence definitely a mega leg burner.
Did these for years in a build up for racing but was never much into gym work (other than body weight squats). I also worked on sprint training, with sprints starting in a low cadence, 2 days a week all year round and was very successful in my world. Dylan Johnson did a deep dive into the science and the evidence was that there was no advantage to low torque training, so I cut them one year and tanked, I just lost my hill climbing advantage and had my worse year ever, just did not have the strength. I mostly do them in Z2, now a days only for about 4x4 mins climbing at a time 50rpm but in the past would do up to 3x15 minutes, around 50rpm. Now that I no longer race (events have all but disappeared in my country since covid and tough times) I still do the occasional 3 week block (once per week) and I do enjoy them, but riding a SS seems to maintain the gains for some time as well. I really should start the sprint training again, just for health reasons.
As a teenager, I didn't realize I was doing torque training. And my bike at the time was stuck in hard gear and I thought it was normal, and riding hills and hollers made my legs very strong , strong enough I was dunking a basketball at 5 10 with ease.
Im a short light older rider, Im a standing cyclist, I can stand/ grind at 60 rpm for over an hour at VO2 max. But I train to do this indoors on Zwift. It really helps in hillclimbs a nd sprints. I spin as well and I think doing each end of the spectrum is bookending and gives me the tools to be a top age group climber. PS im 57 kg
Thanks for this. I definitely get stronger on the bike with low cadence efforts. Would be good to set out a typical number of reps too for very low cadence. I did a session this morning of 10x5min on/off 95%/65% FTP where I started at 80-85rpm and each rep I brought it down 5 rpm so as to ease my muscles into it. Got to 55-60Rpm on the 5th rep and started to feel I might lose my form so kept it there for the 6th rep before raising again by 5rpm each remaining rep as my muscles fatigued. Breathing was fine as I’m well conditioned aerobically. My muscles felt well worked, but overall fatigue was fine so seemed well calibrated. But I’ll know for sure later this week !
good discussion, you have missed 2 crucial aspects of low cadence/torque training (and use in the real world) one is being able to push good watts for a lower heart rate and 2 is the importance of the 'core' engagement as providing a solid platform for higher load. In fact a weak core will really be exposed under high load and of course at 40, 50, 60 cadence there's your bobbing, square pedaling inefficient cyclist as a result. Apart from training off road with the higher resistance required; torque has a role in conserving energy whilst still putting out good power ... another tool in the box.
It is necessary to explain to beginner riders that they have a tendency to a low cadence because it is not comfortable for them to sit and pedal fast, and after practicing a high cadence for a while it is time to return to a high cadence and develop the ability of the muscles to generate power. My question: when to add over-unders and how to distribute them effectively across the block and also what such training should look like, what are the advantages of over-unders, etc.
I am notorious for low cadence I have had many folks tell me I need to work on higher cadance. I am a long time mtb rider and started gravel riding getting into racing, I can hang I believe because I have that power and I see folks spin themselves silly while I can keep my power going for hours.
I actually find that riding indoors has a positive impact on torque in my case - it’s like pedaling with constant, relentless resistance as no matter how much/hard you push, the trainer always generates resistance while the road doesn’t - there is just this lower resistance in the steady state.
The only downside to low cadence training accoding to various studies is risk of injury. The more often the individuals did low cadence training, the more injuries occurred.
Funny that low cadence training is en vogue, as is short cranks. Easiest way to generate more torque at a fixed cadence and pedal force is to increase crank length. Shorter cranks force you into a higher cadence to generate the same power
Shorter cranks open knee and hip angle improving biomechanical efficiency. You typically don't ride shorter cranks with significantly higher torque but compensate with higher cadence by picking an easier gear keeping torque roughly the same. Its very individual how you distribute muscular load vs cardio load.
if you are healthy and don't already pedal at a very low cadence, it could be worth trying! I wouldn't focus on age so much as if it fits properly into your training program
I am a heavy 62 year old rider and hasnt done planned low cadence, but the hills have been trowing low cadence efforts at me. This video is an encouragement. I will do more low cadence, and I will do it focusing on smoothening my pedaling. I am naturally slow so I need a lot torque to maximize watts. On the trainer yesterday I produced more watts than ever, but when I was putting 300 watts or more, the cadence was usually ca 74. Not very low cadence, but lower than the recommended 80-90.
Hey Landry! Hope all is well. Not sure if you remember me, but I am still grinding away. How many torque interval sessions do you recommend per week? Thanks!
I would recommend 1 day per week to start, and you can work it up to 2x per week during base season if you want to make it a big focus. Then maybe every other week for maintenance during the season.
You say torque training isn't instead of gym work but has anyone ever researched doing the same amount of torque training on the bike as they would including gym work? I personally don't like gym work and can't be motivated to go but I can always do hill repeats and include torque training in that. I also believe climbing out of the saddle in training is important even if you predominantly remain seated on climbs. Training your muscles to do what you want them to do (i.e. cycle one leg at a time) seems more logical to me than say squatting both legs at 250kg.
the biggest difference is that you can't get nearly as much force with high torque as you can with gym work...even strength training far away from maximal load is much more than what can be created on the bike
@@EVOQBIKE I understand that but unless you are a track sprinter, having massive thighs is not going to be that much benefit for an endurance cyclist on the road. A lot is spoken about type 1 vs type 2 muscle fibers but I think specificity is the most import point to concentrate on.
@@EVOQBIKE see a research of van Diemen and Bastiaans where they say strengthtraining for cyclist is mostly about building pure power but by doing very high reps with challenging weights (squats) u strenghten the slowtwitchfibers. Ideal for climbing efforts. They also say something about trying to mimick that on the bike.
Muscle fibers are activated all or nothing. If you lower your cadence by 10% you activate 10% more fibers from say 35% to 45% at same power. Its not a strength thing, its a endurance thing. When I prepared gor an alpine fondo going uphill for 5 hours I did low cadence on a regular basis. Just don't overdo to avoid knee problems.
I only did low cadence training when I first started, mainly 5 on 5 off or 2x20 and my ftp went from 180 to 347 in one year….it works!!!
In the beginning, your ftp will increase what ever you do.
Still an impressive jump no matter how you slice it @@user-rl3ef4ju9k
This was the most understandable and clear conversation of yours that I have heard in the three years of listening to the podcast here and on Spotify.
I like the simple and efficient conversation between you and that way I understand a specific topic well (more than in interviews with athletes who share their experience and method in an interesting way but not very useful for the program of a rider who listens)
I would be happy if you could do a series like this on basic concepts up to advanced concepts, with the interviewer enriching the answers of the interviewee and maybe sometimes you switch roles because you both explain in an excellent and understandable way.
Low gear / torque work is done be athletes in different disciplines with very specific goal in mind: muscular endurance and fatigue resistance. It can be done at threshold or tempo wattage intervals (even Zone 2, as seen with Kwiato). There is video of Wout van Aert explaining that he does torque work to lower his VLamax. Some athletes need more torque work than others depending on their goal. The primary goal is to stimulate your slow and mid fibres to absorb bigger work load without tapping in to glycolytic system too much which helps with spring your glycogen reserves. Basically if your weakness is fatigue resistance and muscular fatigue specifically torque work allows you to target that without taxing your whole metabolic system so you can do more of it. Then when you do threshold intervals during build phase you are less limited by your muscular endurance
Your said everything we need to know within four hundred of words! They blalala 17mins but I didn't know what are they talking about!!!
My coach called this low cadence technique "weight lifting on the bike" I live in an area that is flat on the coast in Southern Ca. in the afternoon there is a constant wind blowing in off the ocean. I use this wind to my advantage by grinding out of the saddle in the biggest gear possible into the headwind for miles at a time, super low cadence definitely a mega leg burner.
Did these for years in a build up for racing but was never much into gym work (other than body weight squats). I also worked on sprint training, with sprints starting in a low cadence, 2 days a week all year round and was very successful in my world. Dylan Johnson did a deep dive into the science and the evidence was that there was no advantage to low torque training, so I cut them one year and tanked, I just lost my hill climbing advantage and had my worse year ever, just did not have the strength. I mostly do them in Z2, now a days only for about 4x4 mins climbing at a time 50rpm but in the past would do up to 3x15 minutes, around 50rpm. Now that I no longer race (events have all but disappeared in my country since covid and tough times) I still do the occasional 3 week block (once per week) and I do enjoy them, but riding a SS seems to maintain the gains for some time as well. I really should start the sprint training again, just for health reasons.
As a teenager, I didn't realize I was doing torque training. And my bike at the time was stuck in hard gear and I thought it was normal, and riding hills and hollers made my legs very strong , strong enough I was dunking a basketball at 5 10 with ease.
Im a short light older rider, Im a standing cyclist, I can stand/ grind at 60 rpm for over an hour at VO2 max. But I train to do this indoors on Zwift. It really helps in hillclimbs a nd sprints. I spin as well and I think doing each end of the spectrum is bookending and gives me the tools to be a top age group climber. PS im 57 kg
it's not vo2max if you're doing it for an hour!
this is exactly what I need
Thanks for this. I definitely get stronger on the bike with low cadence efforts. Would be good to set out a typical number of reps too for very low cadence. I did a session this morning of 10x5min on/off 95%/65% FTP where I started at 80-85rpm and each rep I brought it down 5 rpm so as to ease my muscles into it. Got to 55-60Rpm on the 5th rep and started to feel I might lose my form so kept it there for the 6th rep before raising again by 5rpm each remaining rep as my muscles fatigued. Breathing was fine as I’m well conditioned aerobically. My muscles felt well worked, but overall fatigue was fine so seemed well calibrated. But I’ll know for sure later this week !
good discussion, you have missed 2 crucial aspects of low cadence/torque training (and use in the real world) one is being able to push good watts for a lower heart rate and 2 is the importance of the 'core' engagement as providing a solid platform for higher load. In fact a weak core will really be exposed under high load and of course at 40, 50, 60 cadence there's your bobbing, square pedaling inefficient cyclist as a result. Apart from training off road with the higher resistance required; torque has a role in conserving energy whilst still putting out good power ... another tool in the box.
great additions, thank you!
It is necessary to explain to beginner riders that they have a tendency to a low cadence because it is not comfortable for them to sit and pedal fast, and after practicing a high cadence for a while it is time to return to a high cadence and develop the ability of the muscles to generate power.
My question: when to add over-unders and how to distribute them effectively across the block and also what such training should look like, what are the advantages of over-unders, etc.
I am notorious for low cadence I have had many folks tell me I need to work on higher cadance. I am a long time mtb rider and started gravel riding getting into racing, I can hang I believe because I have that power and I see folks spin themselves silly while I can keep my power going for hours.
I actually find that riding indoors has a positive impact on torque in my case - it’s like pedaling with constant, relentless resistance as no matter how much/hard you push, the trainer always generates resistance while the road doesn’t - there is just this lower resistance in the steady state.
there’s a study that found a clear increase between u17, u23, and wt torque values. its almost linear.
The only downside to low cadence training accoding to various studies is risk of injury. The more often the individuals did low cadence training, the more injuries occurred.
It really helps for ultracyclist😊
Funny that low cadence training is en vogue, as is short cranks. Easiest way to generate more torque at a fixed cadence and pedal force is to increase crank length. Shorter cranks force you into a higher cadence to generate the same power
Shorter cranks open knee and hip angle improving biomechanical efficiency. You typically don't ride shorter cranks with significantly higher torque but compensate with higher cadence by picking an easier gear keeping torque roughly the same.
Its very individual how you distribute muscular load vs cardio load.
As a 60 year old non competitive cyclist with 10+ years of cycling behind me would you still recommend this type of training? Thanks
if you are healthy and don't already pedal at a very low cadence, it could be worth trying! I wouldn't focus on age so much as if it fits properly into your training program
@@EVOQBIKE Fantastic thanks
I am a heavy 62 year old rider and hasnt done planned low cadence, but the hills have been trowing low cadence efforts at me. This video is an encouragement. I will do more low cadence, and I will do it focusing on smoothening my pedaling. I am naturally slow so I need a lot torque to maximize watts. On the trainer yesterday I produced more watts than ever, but when I was putting 300 watts or more, the cadence was usually ca 74. Not very low cadence, but lower than the recommended 80-90.
Hey Landry! Hope all is well. Not sure if you remember me, but I am still grinding away. How many torque interval sessions do you recommend per week? Thanks!
I would recommend 1 day per week to start, and you can work it up to 2x per week during base season if you want to make it a big focus. Then maybe every other week for maintenance during the season.
how much torque/ % of ftp do i need? i saw somewhere that i need 1Nm/kg of BW but idk for its true
You say torque training isn't instead of gym work but has anyone ever researched doing the same amount of torque training on the bike as they would including gym work? I personally don't like gym work and can't be motivated to go but I can always do hill repeats and include torque training in that. I also believe climbing out of the saddle in training is important even if you predominantly remain seated on climbs.
Training your muscles to do what you want them to do (i.e. cycle one leg at a time) seems more logical to me than say squatting both legs at 250kg.
the biggest difference is that you can't get nearly as much force with high torque as you can with gym work...even strength training far away from maximal load is much more than what can be created on the bike
@@EVOQBIKE I understand that but unless you are a track sprinter, having massive thighs is not going to be that much benefit for an endurance cyclist on the road. A lot is spoken about type 1 vs type 2 muscle fibers but I think specificity is the most import point to concentrate on.
it's not about massive size, but neural strength! Strong legs does help with riding a bike for 5 or 6 hours!
@@EVOQBIKE see a research of van Diemen and Bastiaans where they say strengthtraining for cyclist is mostly about building pure power but by doing very high reps with challenging weights (squats) u strenghten the slowtwitchfibers. Ideal for climbing efforts. They also say something about trying to mimick that on the bike.
@@EVOQBIKE Standing start sprints pushing 1000watts at 45rpm sure feels like the same amount of force as doing a leg press in the gym.
Muscle fibers are activated all or nothing. If you lower your cadence by 10% you activate 10% more fibers from say 35% to 45% at same power. Its not a strength thing, its a endurance thing. When I prepared gor an alpine fondo going uphill for 5 hours I did low cadence on a regular basis. Just don't overdo to avoid knee problems.
Low cadence big gear training makes your lower back sore.
sounds like you might benefit from some pedaling technique work; should not irritate your back if done correctly. good luck!