That academy generally doesn't nominate "genre" films like SciFi and Horror. This kinda falls into both. Also as mentioned Freud was left in the score as was the Hanson Symphony all making this a messy choice for the academy.
I appreciate the Goldsmith love, and I agree this is a fantastic and unique sound for the 1979 film, but if you reduce the chord within an octave, it's just a whole tone scale, a common tool of the French impressionists, and a language JW explored in another alien film CCOTTK 1977.
Possibly another interpretation.. that is beauty of music theory. Since the man is no longer with us, we can't ask him. However, I see it as stacked 7ths not whole tone scale. You are welcome to perceive it as a whole tone scale. We are both correct really. Yes, I know about the musical language of CEO3K Williams used too. May do a video on that too.
@@CueTheMusic Sometimes (most of the time) things like music are thoroughly over-analysed, when in reality, despite the obvious expertise of a given composer (in this case, or any other kind of artist), the way they came up with something seen as genius that they've thought out so intricately etc is in fact often largely by chance and good fortune or simply habits they have picked up from other artists who influenced them and so on.
Austin Dyer As a composer and conductor I can assure you that, indeed, few things are done accidentally. Goldsmith was a sophisticated man and a composer who did few things without deep calculation. 🧮 🎵
Ok! That sounds like fun.. You wanting analysis of the open 5th intervals or just some sort of structure breakdown? We are talking Goldsmith's main title from ST:TMP or any cue I find that is extra cool?
Goldsmith said that his major inspiration for this film came from the 4th and 6th symphonies of Vaughan Williams, and I can hear exactly what he had in mind, especially in the Klingon and V'ger music.
I don't really hear it... slight gestures I guess but this is really about that opening ALIEN "chord" of stacked 7th which is much more striking then RVW's chord on 2nds at the beginning of that piece. This is about tessitura. A 2nd can be heard as a 7th except with the distance between intervals.
I majored in music all through school and analyzed many pieces. Tristan and Isolde was the bain of my existence lol. Time passes, I’m enjoying a busy studio singing career with the honor of working on Poltergeist with Jerry Goldsmith.Never one to shrink from an opportunity to compliment someone I admire, I told him how much I loved his Alien score. After thanking me, he went on to say it was not a happy time for him, that Ridley Scott had been difficult. Too, Scott replaced some of Goldsmith’s work with Howard Hanson’s music from his Romantic Symphony, which neither Goldsmith nor Hanson were too thrilled about. Anyway. I love the trumpet solo at the beginning and his use of flute triads which always made me think of the vast loneliness of space….where no one can hear you scream. Great movie, great score.
Scott also used parts of Jerry Goldsmith's "Freud" without telling him and rejected the original intro because it was too "romantic" . Jerry was certainly not a happy man during Alien. LOL
Because the connected intervals describe a wide arch like you were standing in the middle of a big room or a dark (maybe gothic) church, I thought he was portraiting the uneasy atmosphere and the "place" at the same time. That is why that Debussy prelude in 2:20 is called "the sunken cathedral". In any case, Goldsmith knew what he was doing.
I don't know how you got the chord but I am so glad you did. I got the bass and the top two notes, but I couldn't figure out what was making the dissonance in between. I am pleasantly surprised that the dissonance came out of an elegantly simply process.
Great! You earned yourself a new subscriber! I find your videos very informative and interesting. It would be very beautiful to listen to some of your compositions ;)
Thanks Jerry and thanks "Cue The Music"! Yes, the notes of the chord are from whole tone scale and the chord is a C9altered (with #4 (b5) and #5) =D9 alt., E9alt., etc, etc...but stacking by b7th is an awesome resource. I'm searching new ideas: Try to stacking by b6 (#5) starting from F# root note [F#2, D3, A#3 (Bb) E4, C5, G#5] (you have the "sci-fi major tritone chords progression" with C (of the original chord) in the bass up to F# and the high D (of original chord) down to G#... a new condensed chord but with the same notes! Try also stacking by mixed 3rd, by 2nd (G#3, A#3, C4, D4, E4: cluster, very compressed) or by 9th (D1, E2, F#3, G#4, A#5, C6: really expanded!) It's important to stay in the middle register with the middle notes of the chord) Great resource... what to you think about? Thank again for your video!
Wild! Tried to respond to your cool comment from a couple days ago, but seems it's (a series of comments) all zapped? I wonder what I missed.... Oh well, happy Alienating, haha!
Thanks. I wish more people cared about film music. I have a cool Horner and Elfman video in mind but frankly too busy with my own composing career... so I guess if I find time. This channel is fun but sadly demonitized. I do it for fun if there is time.
Cue The Music that's a shame! The fact that you put so much thought into these videos really shows how passionate you are about film music. I wish more people cared about the power of film music like you. Whatever you may do, I'll be interested :)
John Williams uses similar technique where you put the 2nd or the 7th as the bass note. It creates an instability. the chord is complete except the root (bottom note) is not the tonic. Goldsmith used a neat chord in Total Recall and River wild also i would call it a suspense chord F Dd G / C G The suspense being between the Db and C which instead of a minor 2nd are a 7th..
Great, simple but informative video.... and I think you're right. In all my years of music listening (and writing) I've never yet heard that chord anywhere else, or certainly not written so openly and purely. I always wondered about its historical origins, but Goldsmith appears to have conjured it out of the blue. Glad you picked up on that too. Goldsmith was a genius of his field. Thanks.
I'm not sure how that works but keep us posted. Your videos are very informative to someone who loves this music but has little understanding of the issues you discuss in clear language.
Truly wonderful, both in the recognition of Jerry Goldsmith’s gifts and in your explanation of the Alien chord. I’ll add that his score to Planet of the Apes is, imho, a masterpiece and is worth exploring.
Good vid Scott. Very informative. And thanks for introducing me to an Ives piece I'd never heard before :) I do think Mahler helped in forwarding the idea of blurred tonality and key centres in western music that foreshadowed Schoenberg's serialist movement
I am a film composer myself here in Hollywood. Things are just around. As for finding the film score (not the album score which is different) I understand the Smithsonian Institute has a copy. Send me a PM to scott glasgow music channel if you can not find it.
Its tough to say... I think Ridley Scott is brilliant as is Goldsmith. I think Terry Rawlings was the problem and miopic with musical limited mind. He should never had final cut on music choices. The opening works really well for the "strange" vs Goldsmith's idea of "truckers in space wonder" but my issue is does it get scary too soon for the audience? If it stays strange like 2001 was with the Ligeti then great! If it scares the audience before they should be then no-- it's telgraphic how someone should feel and they should not be scared before that first chest burst scene-- then it goes dark, mystery no more.
I have to disagree. As much as I love his original main title, the music used in the film works much better. It produces a much more scary feeling because it sounds so unearthly. So it works like some kind of scary overture which produced the right feelings to the cinema goers of what will come in the film
no.. it's not! You are thinking in jazz chord terminology (which I really do not like). My guess is JG was thinking more classical, and hence more like stacking min 7th like Ives might have done IMHO.
@@CueTheMusic that’s rather a dismissive attitude to a whole genre of music. Yes , he stacked 7ths, but it’s undeniable that jazz harmony is much more direct in its ability to Describe chords. It tells you know exactly what’s going on immediately. The voicing of the chord is a different matter. It’s not really that complex a chord at all.
@@CueTheMusic Everyone copies from everyone, to Goldsmith doesn't copy from anyone.......would have been better to say Alien score was heavily influenced by Holst, specially Saturn. This will help aspiring composers to study what their favourite composers studied to do what they did.
"last couple seconds of that chord" I have no idea where you are talking. If you are referring to the E/Eb7 chord, that a simple polychord not a chord built on 7ths like Goldsmith does here.
Cue The Music last of couple of seconds referring to the final “chord of the earth” as Stravinsky called it in that particular cue. To my ears they sound similar but that’s just me I guess
I took a look at the 2nd to last chord on that movement, it is a C (5th) in the low strings and a Ebm7 in the upper strings (all pizz). For me that is a polychord again of Cm / Ebm (a very John Williams chord).
Why do you call it the alien chord if it wasnt heard in the movie? There is a similar video on Hans Zimmer on the Dark Knight, but it identifies what makes the chord unique and thus the score unique.
Not true! Watch the opening again, at 1:32 or so you will hear that chord. Also I think when I listened to the album then finally studied the conductor score, I found it to be certainly "alien". For me it is the "Alien" chord because I have not hear it in any other score or classical work, ever.
The opening of Alien is clearly based in Scriabin’s Prometheus (beautiful as it is). Perhaps this was used as a temp track and the team wanted something similar (?). The Alien chord is the Mystic chord, enharmonically written, with one altered note (if I’m not mistaken).
Goldsmith came up with this on his own. I do not believe it was temped with Scriabin's Prometheus. I am sure JG knew of the "mysictic chord" however if you watch my video you can see this is more an expansion of Ive's quartal approach to chords, except in a unique way JG used the minor 7th. IMHO Scriabin's music did not come into these decisions at all from the composer or the film makers. The Alien chord is not the mystic chord enharmonically written with a wrong note-- music analysis that is a stretch. Goldsmith and the editor of the film Rawlings have explained many times what happened. Jerry wrote about "truckers in space" with a Romantic score which was rejected for Ridley's Scott asking for "strange and weird" atonal score that Jerry wrote in less then a day with orchestral fx. None of that is about Scriabin's music.
Cue The Music interesting, I appreciate the response. When I say “based”, perhaps “influenced” would have been a better choice of words. I did not intend to imply a lack of artistic integrity on JG’s part but rather a courteous nod to the Scriabin piece. I’m surely you agree that it is hard to deny the similarities: the long sustained synthetic chords that open both pieces followed by melodic themes in the brass and extended dominant “flavoured” harmony. And it’s not as if JG is shy about his nods to well known 20th century works. Bartok and Penderecki’s spring to mind with examples of both appearing in Alien. In light of these other examples I have a hard time imagining that the Alien theme was not at least subconsciously influenced by Prometheus.
Can't believe Alien didn't even get nominated for Best Score!
Well probably because about half of it is temped from Freud.
@@daniellowry660 OMG! I just looked Freud up. You are so correct! Its still a great score, in both movies.
That academy generally doesn't nominate "genre" films like SciFi and Horror. This kinda falls into both. Also as mentioned Freud was left in the score as was the Hanson Symphony all making this a messy choice for the academy.
Maestro Goldsmith was a genius. Though it has been years since his passing I still feel it. For every musician losing him is like an open wound.
Yeah few action composers have ever come close. Horror / suspense too. He is sadly gone and the current crop does not even come close in craft.
Although they didn't use his original main nor end title, the chord was still used in the "new" main title.
I appreciate the Goldsmith love, and I agree this is a fantastic and unique sound for the 1979 film, but if you reduce the chord within an octave, it's just a whole tone scale, a common tool of the French impressionists, and a language JW explored in another alien film CCOTTK 1977.
Possibly another interpretation.. that is beauty of music theory. Since the man is no longer with us, we can't ask him. However, I see it as stacked 7ths not whole tone scale. You are welcome to perceive it as a whole tone scale. We are both correct really. Yes, I know about the musical language of CEO3K Williams used too. May do a video on that too.
@@CueTheMusic Sometimes (most of the time) things like music are thoroughly over-analysed, when in reality, despite the obvious expertise of a given composer (in this case, or any other kind of artist), the way they came up with something seen as genius that they've thought out so intricately etc is in fact often largely by chance and good fortune or simply habits they have picked up from other artists who influenced them and so on.
Austin Dyer As a composer and conductor I can assure you that, indeed, few things are done accidentally. Goldsmith was a sophisticated man and a composer who did few things without deep calculation. 🧮 🎵
He was also famous for his mixed meters, totally the genius of the guy was astounding especially for the medium of film. The "Stravinsky" of cinema.
Yep! I did a video on Goldsmith Mixed Meters too!
Excellent man.
Please do one of Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Ok! That sounds like fun.. You wanting analysis of the open 5th intervals or just some sort of structure breakdown? We are talking Goldsmith's main title from ST:TMP or any cue I find that is extra cool?
Goldsmith said that his major inspiration for this film came from the 4th and 6th symphonies of Vaughan Williams, and I can hear exactly what he had in mind, especially in the Klingon and V'ger music.
Yeah for Star Trek... not Alien (that I am aware of).
What about the opening from "Sancta Civitas"? That has an ALIEN feel to it.
I don't really hear it... slight gestures I guess but this is really about that opening ALIEN "chord" of stacked 7th which is much more striking then RVW's chord on 2nds at the beginning of that piece. This is about tessitura. A 2nd can be heard as a 7th except with the distance between intervals.
I majored in music all through school and analyzed many pieces. Tristan and Isolde was the bain of my existence lol. Time passes, I’m enjoying a busy studio singing career with the honor of working on Poltergeist with Jerry Goldsmith.Never one to shrink from an opportunity to compliment someone I admire, I told him how much I loved his Alien score. After thanking me, he went on to say it was not a happy time for him, that Ridley Scott had been difficult. Too, Scott replaced some of Goldsmith’s work with Howard Hanson’s music from his Romantic Symphony, which neither Goldsmith nor Hanson were too thrilled about. Anyway. I love the trumpet solo at the beginning and his use of flute triads which always made me think of the vast loneliness of space….where no one can hear you scream. Great movie, great score.
Scott also used parts of Jerry Goldsmith's "Freud" without telling him and rejected the original intro because it was too "romantic" . Jerry was certainly not a happy man during Alien. LOL
Because the connected intervals describe a wide arch like you were standing in the middle of a big room or a dark (maybe gothic) church, I thought he was portraiting the uneasy atmosphere and the "place" at the same time. That is why that Debussy prelude in 2:20 is called "the sunken cathedral". In any case, Goldsmith knew what he was doing.
Yes he did.
I don't know how you got the chord but I am so glad you did. I got the bass and the top two notes, but I couldn't figure out what was making the dissonance in between. I am pleasantly surprised that the dissonance came out of an elegantly simply process.
Well I also have the conductor score JG used when recording so I was able to check the chord voicing.
Great! You earned yourself a new subscriber! I find your videos very informative and interesting. It would be very beautiful to listen to some of your compositions ;)
Thank you. This channel will not deal with my music much but there is some in the Horror history, vol 4.
Interesting! Enjoyed your explanation.
Thanks Jerry and thanks "Cue The Music"!
Yes, the notes of the chord are from whole tone scale and the chord is a C9altered (with #4 (b5) and #5) =D9 alt., E9alt., etc, etc...but stacking by b7th is an awesome resource.
I'm searching new ideas:
Try to stacking by b6 (#5) starting from F# root note
[F#2, D3, A#3 (Bb) E4, C5, G#5] (you have the "sci-fi major tritone chords progression" with C (of the original chord) in the bass up to F# and the high D (of original chord) down to G#... a new condensed chord but with the same notes!
Try also stacking by mixed 3rd, by 2nd (G#3, A#3, C4, D4, E4: cluster, very compressed) or by 9th (D1, E2, F#3, G#4, A#5, C6: really expanded!)
It's important to stay in the middle register with the middle notes of the chord)
Great resource... what to you think about?
Thank again for your video!
Wild! Tried to respond to your cool comment from a couple days ago, but seems it's (a series of comments) all zapped? I wonder what I missed.... Oh well, happy Alienating, haha!
You missed nothing but internet trolling... Happy Alienating to you too.
Ha! Thanks for explaining. Awesome
you deserve way more views dude. great video
Thanks. I wish more people cared about film music. I have a cool Horner and Elfman video in mind but frankly too busy with my own composing career... so I guess if I find time. This channel is fun but sadly demonitized. I do it for fun if there is time.
Cue The Music that's a shame! The fact that you put so much thought into these videos really shows how passionate you are about film music. I wish more people cared about the power of film music like you. Whatever you may do, I'll be interested :)
If you want weird chords check out the music of Alexander Scriabin, have fun!
I know Scriabin's "Mystic" chord well. It is not easy to work with.
John Williams uses similar technique where you put the 2nd or the 7th as the bass note. It creates an instability. the chord is complete except the root (bottom note) is not the tonic. Goldsmith
used a neat chord in Total Recall and River wild also i would call it a suspense chord F Dd G / C G The suspense being between the Db and C which instead of a minor 2nd are a 7th..
Great, simple but informative video.... and I think you're right. In all my years of music listening (and writing) I've never yet heard that chord anywhere else, or certainly not written so openly and purely. I always wondered about its historical origins, but Goldsmith appears to have conjured it out of the blue. Glad you picked up on that too. Goldsmith was a genius of his field. Thanks.
You need to post more often.
I would love to... but RUclips demonitized me. To make these videos is difficult. Maybe it is time for Patreon?
I'm not sure how that works but keep us posted. Your videos are very informative to someone who loves this music but has little understanding of the issues you discuss in clear language.
I have been wondering about this for decades. Thank you!
I'm sure there's a few appearances of the "Alien chord" in David Shire's score for Zodiac. @CueTheMusic
I'll have to check that out!
Enjoyed watching & listening to this informative video. Would C E Ives have thought of this chord had he composed for films? Possibly.
Yeah I do think Charles Ives would have.... it was only an extrapolation of his quartal harmony of his "Cage" song.
Truly wonderful, both in the recognition of Jerry Goldsmith’s gifts and in your explanation of the Alien chord. I’ll add that his score to Planet of the Apes is, imho, a masterpiece and is worth exploring.
and his use of serialism.
Cue The Music Absolutely. Nothing academic about his choice of 12 tone writing there. It gave the score a very otherworldly tone.
The music for Omen and Alien are the best that Goldsmith ever wrote, it's so hard to find them on CD.
You need to listen to The Final Conflict, a magnificent choral score.
Good vid Scott. Very informative. And thanks for introducing me to an Ives piece I'd never heard before :)
I do think Mahler helped in forwarding the idea of blurred tonality and key centres in western music that foreshadowed Schoenberg's serialist movement
Mahler certainly did especially by Sym. 9 and Schoeberg... well that one is a no brainer. His serialism changed the music forever.
Both Webern and Schönberg were Mahler fans.
What's with the first bar of the Engulfed Cathedral at 2:21?
Never seen it like that...
Not sure what you mean.
@@CueTheMusic The RH chords are incorrect (should be 4ths) and the first chord in the LH is incorrect.
Thanks brother. I had this written down in the order that the notes appear but didn't realise it was stacked min 7ths. Big help! Cheers, Konrad.
The stacks of fourths for me instantly invoke McCoy Tyner, jazz-head that I am. :-P
I don't know McCoy Tyner at all sadly.... I am so not the jazzer guy. I've studied it, enjoyed it but harmonically it is all neutral to me.
I've been looking for a copy of the manuscript for 'ALIEN' without any luck. Can you tell me where you got your copy? (3:17). Thanks!
I am a film composer myself here in Hollywood. Things are just around. As for finding the film score (not the album score which is different) I understand the Smithsonian Institute has a copy. Send me a PM to scott glasgow music channel if you can not find it.
Goldsmith was robbed on this movie. His original vision is so much better than what they did to it.
Its tough to say... I think Ridley Scott is brilliant as is Goldsmith. I think Terry Rawlings was the problem and miopic with musical limited mind. He should never had final cut on music choices. The opening works really well for the "strange" vs Goldsmith's idea of "truckers in space wonder" but my issue is does it get scary too soon for the audience? If it stays strange like 2001 was with the Ligeti then great! If it scares the audience before they should be then no-- it's telgraphic how someone should feel and they should not be scared before that first chest burst scene-- then it goes dark, mystery no more.
I have to disagree. As much as I love his original main title, the music used in the film works much better. It produces a much more scary feeling because it sounds so unearthly. So it works like some kind of scary overture which produced the right feelings to the cinema goers of what will come in the film
Nice, I love it! i never noticed he used this kid a cord 'til now. Pretty sweet. Keep up the good work, and make more videos like this!
Man, your videos are the best in this subject! I will spread over your channel link to as many people I can!
Thank you! Yes please let the word out
Great work!!!
Very good analysis! Thank you
This channel is everything I want and need right now. Thank you!
You are welcome! Horner is coming soon.
I'm so glad I've found this channel!
love it! Thanks Scott.
It's a C9 (b5,b13).
no.. it's not! You are thinking in jazz chord terminology (which I really do not like). My guess is JG was thinking more classical, and hence more like stacking min 7th like Ives might have done IMHO.
@@CueTheMusic that’s rather a dismissive attitude to a whole genre of music. Yes , he stacked 7ths, but it’s undeniable that jazz harmony is much more direct in its ability to Describe chords. It tells you know exactly what’s going on immediately. The voicing of the chord is a different matter. It’s not really that complex a chord at all.
This is a bit of a non argument. As soon as voicings are introduced as an element, we can all high five!
Goldmisth doesn't copy other composers....
HOLST my beer!
ALL composers copy from other composers... including Goldsmith.... and Holst! Just figuring out which composer they borrowed from is the key.
@@CueTheMusic Everyone copies from everyone, to Goldsmith doesn't copy from anyone.......would have been better to say Alien score was heavily influenced by Holst, specially Saturn. This will help aspiring composers to study what their favourite composers studied to do what they did.
Still my favorite from him. Stravinsky has a similar chord in Rite of Spring
Really? Where is that?? What part? I've not found that but would love to check it out.
Cue The Music the “Adoration of the Earth” cue. Last couple of seconds has that chord
"last couple seconds of that chord" I have no idea where you are talking. If you are referring to the E/Eb7 chord, that a simple polychord not a chord built on 7ths like Goldsmith does here.
Cue The Music last of couple of seconds referring to the final “chord of the earth” as Stravinsky called it in that particular cue. To my ears they sound similar but that’s just me I guess
I took a look at the 2nd to last chord on that movement, it is a C (5th) in the low strings and a Ebm7 in the upper strings (all pizz). For me that is a polychord again of Cm / Ebm (a very John Williams chord).
The freedom to create a chord like this was the rule in his time. Many composers were using custom sounds everytime
Golsmith was unique. Did not sound like anyone else and was bold in his choices that we see here with this chord.
Why do you call it the alien chord if it wasnt heard in the movie? There is a similar video on Hans Zimmer on the Dark Knight, but it identifies what makes the chord unique and thus the score unique.
Not true! Watch the opening again, at 1:32 or so you will hear that chord.
Also I think when I listened to the album then finally studied the conductor score, I found it to be certainly "alien". For me it is the "Alien" chord because I have not hear it in any other score or classical work, ever.
The opening of Alien is clearly based in Scriabin’s Prometheus (beautiful as it is). Perhaps this was used as a temp track and the team wanted something similar (?). The Alien chord is the Mystic chord, enharmonically written, with one altered note (if I’m not mistaken).
Goldsmith came up with this on his own. I do not believe it was temped with Scriabin's Prometheus. I am sure JG knew of the "mysictic chord" however if you watch my video you can see this is more an expansion of Ive's quartal approach to chords, except in a unique way JG used the minor 7th. IMHO Scriabin's music did not come into these decisions at all from the composer or the film makers. The Alien chord is not the mystic chord enharmonically written with a wrong note-- music analysis that is a stretch.
Goldsmith and the editor of the film Rawlings have explained many times what happened. Jerry wrote about "truckers in space" with a Romantic score which was rejected for Ridley's Scott asking for "strange and weird" atonal score that Jerry wrote in less then a day with orchestral fx. None of that is about Scriabin's music.
Cue The Music interesting, I appreciate the response. When I say “based”, perhaps “influenced” would have been a better choice of words. I did not intend to imply a lack of artistic integrity on JG’s part but rather a courteous nod to the Scriabin piece. I’m surely you agree that it is hard to deny the similarities: the long sustained synthetic chords that open both pieces followed by melodic themes in the brass and extended dominant “flavoured” harmony. And it’s not as if JG is shy about his nods to well known 20th century works. Bartok and Penderecki’s spring to mind with examples of both appearing in Alien. In light of these other examples I have a hard time imagining that the Alien theme was not at least subconsciously influenced by Prometheus.