people love to tell bisexuals they’re not queer just because they haven’t engaged in gay sex like same logic as saying a virgin can’t know their sexuality… being queer and having sex are two different things entirely
just an fyi, taylor swift has explicitly said that the song betty is written from the perspective of a teenage boy, not a female. the whole album that it's on is a story telling album, almost every song is written from a different pov instead of her own.
to answer Kendahl’s question about sherlock and supernatural: I watched supernatural, not sherlock, but ive seen enough clips of sherlock to know that both shows definitely play into the fact that they know the audience ships the male characters. even if it wasn’t intentional at first, they quickly became aware and would write in scenes to pander to it, never intending to follow through and make it canon. with supernatural, the show ended with one of the male characters finally confessing his love for the other, which is not reciprocated or mentioned again, and then the guy who confessed immediately went to SuperHell. so i get why fans felt betrayed by that after like 15 seasons of the show that only survived so long because of the fans, a huge portion of whom were obsessed with the idea of their ships becoming canon. Sarah Z has a video about it. Both shows wrote in a lot of ambiguous intense eyecontact/physical affection and jokes from other characters were constantly made about the fact that they seem like romantic partners. so while the audience’s delusion was definitely a part of it, queerbaiting was definitely present too.
the queerbaiting in Sherlock went absolutely crazy. Even in the first episode there were characters alluding to the idea of John and Sherlock being in a relationship.
My issue with queer baiting and people who accuse celebrities of queer baiting just because they won’t label their sexuality: no one owes you a label and should NOT be forced out. Just because someone primarily dates the opposite sex doesn’t mean they’re not bi or pan. I am bisexual, and haven’t come out to most of my old or family member simply because I tend to date men (when I date at all, and I live in a small town). It just feels like a conversation I don’t want to have to have until and unless I meet a woman I want to date. Coming out could cause stress and chaos in MY life and I’m not even a celebrity. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the people who get speculated about feel a similar way, on a bigger scale. Queer baiting certainly happens, and is an issue- HOWEVER people shouldn’t be forced to come out just to stop being harassed.
I mean I don’t think it’s cool to assume anyone’s sexuality, and there have been celebs who have been forced “out.” I never publicly dated a woman and I’m married to a cis man but that doesn’t mean I’m not bisexual. 🤷♀️
Hi, not a diehard Swiftie at all but in her live session on Disney+ Taylor said that “Betty” is from the perspective of a character called James who is a teenage boy. Her lyrics also says “I’m just a teenage boy” 😊
People are confused when trans people exist in general, but I am coming to terms with my sexuality recently, and they are 10000x more confused when I say that I'm bi. It doesn't help that a lot of people just think Bi men don't exist lol.
On Killing Eve: The romance comes directly from the toxicity and them hurting eachother. On paper its a police vs villain, cat and mouse game, but over the course of the seasons it becomes more and more unclear which one of them is actually worse. SPOILER ALERT>>>> It becomes apparent that villainelle's psychology is quite easily explained by her trauma, she is more childlike and damaged than first thought. VS Eve who you see as an every-day person, you start to learn she is actually pretty sick in the head, and probably born that way. I liked how they changed throughout the story and started to sort of meet in the middle, eve getting worse and villainelle getting better. I almost expected them to pass by eachother and for Eve to become the villain, that Villainelle would have to "Kill Eve", but unfortunately the final season sort of threw that away. Pls ignore the final season, it sucks. Just watch right up until the end of the finale of the previous season and leave it at that, it leaves a good amount to the imagination. Final season is just awful with a bad ending.
I am not a Taylor Swift fan and everything I know about her has been against my own will but I feel like Kendahls line of thinking re: the taylor swift, sexuality and karli Kloss makes a lot of sense (i have auDHD)
Betty was written from a males perspective. The whole folklore album is not about Taylor, might be inspired by her life. But ultimately as she has said it’s interconnected stories around a love triangle.
and also with the taylor swift "gaylors" I think people conflate personal queer relation to her songs with she herself being queer; you can relate on a different level while still understanding the original meaning. it doesn't mean she's a specific sexuality. it also tends to bring out a lot of biphobia with the ppl speculatig. Also Taylor has explicitly said Betty is from the perspective of James, a character.
I did my entire thesis on the representation of femme presenting queer folk in the media (and it's effect on young queer folk's development) and the amount of overlap with queer baiting and the like doom to all queer characters trope is so complex. Like 90 pages and 4 years of research complex, but also so important! SO thank you for bringing attention to the topic! If you ever want to hear a nearly 30 year old woman ramble about all these little queer shows you mentioned and how it subconsciously mentally damaged us (this is mostly me dramatizing) let me know
A lot of people confuse queer baiting with queer coding/subtext. The big difference is all on the intentions of the writers (because these terms are specifically about fiction). If the intention is to attract and retain queer audiences in the hopes of getting representation but with no pay off then it's queer baiting. if the writers intended to write queer characters and a queer story but didn't explicitly say it within the story, usually because they *can't* make it explicit, then it's not baiting, it's coding. As someone who did watch Sherlock, I don't think the writers intentionally set up characters to be interpreted as queer AT FIRST but they saw that fans were loudly speculating it and pleading for it, so they leaned into it to keep viewers, attract more, but never intended to actually do anything sincere with it. For an example that's not queer baiting is Hannibal. The way the show is absolutely not queer baiting is because it's very clear they wrote a love story and that it was their intention to do so. And any fan of the show will tell you whatever the fuck they had goin on was way more intimate and homoerotic than if we had watched a feature length sex scene between Will and Hannibal. They didn't have to kiss or fuck or say "I am in love with him in a gay homosexual gay way" for us as viewers to understand. We knew the writers' intention.
As someone who isnt obsessed with shipping male characters, I always thought that John and Sherlock being portrayed as a bickering old couple was more like a running joke. I was surprised to find out how mad people were about it. They want men to have close friendships and then they get mad when its not sexual, its so weird.
I really think the whole "is harry styles queer" thing was purposefully done by him and his marketing team to separate his solo career from his 1D time. He needed to diversify his image and his team did impecable market research so see where he could take his music the best, to increase his audience and distance himself from the boyband image. His style change also played into that. This pivot is in my opinion why he is by far the most sucessfull of the 1D members, who all did not pivot their image post 1D and therefore did not really increase/diversify their audience. I cant say anything on his actual sexuality but I do think that his whole image was carefully engineered to where its at today including his outward closeness to the LGBTQ community. So in that sense what ever his sexuality may be, I think he is purposfuly profiting of the LGBTQ community
Be for real. Since the early days of 1D he has said queer things or written queer themes in his work. Not to mention his management is known to be homophobic.
We forgetting how much the fans harassed Harry and Louis into coming out bcos they were convinced they were dating? Harry has always had queer speculation and attracted a queer audience
Them hammering home that Kit's character was bisexual in that show and people still reducing him to gay nonetheless is the epitome of the bi experience. I never watched the show though so I'm talking out of my ass rn Edit: I do appreciate the brief discussion on biphobia, as you can see this is something I'm somewhat passionate on tackling.
I feel like sometimes its pretty obvious when someone is queer but they just dont want to say it explicitly. Im not fully out but i dont really limit what i say so if you can put 2n2 together youd be able to tell what type of queer i am, but i wont say yes if someone asks me because i want the plausible deniability if a situation is dangerous
re: sherlock, literally in the first episode of the show watson asks sherlock if he has a gf, sherlock says no, he says "oh, do you have a boyfriend then... which is fine by the way" and sherlock looks at him like 🤨 "I know it's fine... and btw I'm flattered but I don't date" and this was just ONE of the many many many instances IN the show, and they heavily marketed the show's final season around a love confession between the two of them which turned out to be a fake out where sherlock said he loved a woman to hurt her bc he was forced to 💀 it was WILDDDD. the definition of queerbaiting
I don't think celebrities can queer bait. If I as an individual am allowed to say that I'm not sure what my sexuality is or that I'm still exploring, etc., why would a celebrity not also be allowed to do that?
i generally agree with this but have had a ton of discussions about this in relation to celebrities as people, versus celebrities as brands. Sarah and Kendahl touched on it in this episode but i think that celebrities as brands (and i think this almost exclusively applies to musicians because the nature of their art and work is far more personal) can queer bait, or use subtext clues to signal to their audience that they are or are not queer. i ultimately think the larger issue is that celebrities are not really free to express themselves without pressure from their management to maintain ambiguity and therefore a wider appeal. similarly, openly coming out can have a negative impact on sales or campaigns because of homophobia, transphobia, etc. also… we are all far too invested in parasocial relationships with these celebrities and we can’t just enjoy the art without attaching it to a figure (because that sells more merchandise, more records, etc.)
I think there is a difference between exploring your queer identity and purposefully manufacturing a queer identity, which is what some celebrities do.
@@halfpine9952 do they actually though? what does a manufactured queer identity look like? let's assume for the sake of the argument Harry Styles is straight, only interested in women and that he identifies as a man. he would still be totally allowed to dress the way he does, act the way he does, and not want to answer questions about his sexuality/identity. that is a 10000% valid thing to do. being in the public eye and being a "brand" doesn't mean that you should immediately lose right to being an individual with privacy boundaries and the freedom to express yourself.
on a more serious note….. mlm relationships have historically had way fewer explicit relationships in media and rely more on subtext, ie johnlock, supernatural, etc. queerbaiting in media is largely relating to mlm relationships. wlw relationships have more representation (bc of the objectification of women, which is a whole other convo) but at least in media analysis, queerbaiting is overwhelmingly a “mlm problem”
This is a good point but The lesbian representation you mention isn't actually representation because its made for men. It's never geared towards us, a lot of actual good rep for lesbians is canceled early on. this fetishizations of lesbians cannot be considered representation because we are never taken seriously . It's seen more as a kink than a sexuality because they don't actually believe lesbians are actually lesbians because lesbian is the only sexuality to exclude men completely and in a patriarchal society that is seen as impossible.
@@Lesbianmonstertruck i agree now that you’ve said it actually, sooo so so much of it shouldn’t really be considered real representation, absolutely. and i think it’s equal comparison could be the way that a lot of mlm media in the last 15~years has been catered to or made by women that fetishize gay men. i think mlm and wlw queerbaiting just exist in different spheres and in different ways and it’s interesting to see how they’re different
1:15:32 I don’t know if Kendahl is trying to be British, Kiwi or Australian but I don’t think she has ever heard either speak 😂😂 as a brit the accent made me laugh so hard
I hope I'm not annoying live commenting. I just really love y'all and I'm a stay at home mom and it's filling my cup to listen and comment and boost engagement.
Betty by Taylor Swift is part of a fictional love triangle she created and is sung from the POV of a straight man named James. He’s singing to another character in the triangle named Betty. There are 2 other songs from other characters POVs. She’s talked about this in the making of folklore and other interviews. Just thought you should know the backstory on it!
The only "evidence" that really gets me about the whole Taylor Swift thing is the photo she posted of a bracelet that says "Pride" with bi colors (I say this as a bi person lol). I just can't think of another explanation for it. But at the same time, if she is bi and doesn't wanna come out that's okay. And though I do have some criticisms for Taylor Swift, I think it's nice that so many sapphic people (me included) can easily read so many of her songs through a queer lens, regardless of her sexuality. Interpreting things your own way is what art is about.
that bracelet was giving to her by a fan during the Lover secret sessions so she might've not even seen what it actually said or gotten what it stands for 😅@@maggiedk
Taylor Swift’s 1989 (Taylor’s Version) prologue: “If I only hung out with my female friends, people couldn’t sensationalize or sexualize that, right? I would learn later on that people could and people would.” Betty is written from the perspective of a teenage boy. folklore and evermore are not biographical albums like her other ones. They highlight her storytelling abilities because she writes about multiple scenarios from different viewpoints.
because inventing a scenario where she has to write an apology song from the perspective of a teenage boy to a teenage girl is the epitome of heterosexuality… (i say this as a swiftie, and one who believes taylor is bisexual)
@@cholbs1998 it’s the epitome of her being a talented storyteller. Plenty of authors write from the perspective of other people and the opposite sex. It doesn’t mean they’re suddenly attracted to the same sex because they do so. She also says she likes to use her songs to teach men how to apologize and switching perspectives is one way she does it.
About Killing Eve (spoilers ahead): the major problem people had with this (at least at the time of the finale) was the "bury your gays" trope. They kind of allowed the two women to have a relationship, but one of them dies in the last episode. Not technically queerbaiting, but still shitty
I understand that queer people’s need to be on guard about queer baiting, but sometimes people jump on it too quickly. For example when the first season of Our Flag Means Death came out people accused it of queer baiting before the first season had even finished. Sometimes it feels like queer baiting accusations can be limiting of the types of queer stories that can be told. Just because the queerness of one type of story doesn’t fit a certain mold, doesn’t mean it’s “queer baiting”.
the term "queer bait" has been around for a lot longer than the internet lol my sister called me that in the 80s (plot twist we're both raging queers, wheeeeee)
the concept that queer people are “born this way” was created out of a necessity to prove that queerness is natural therefore we shouldn’t punish it. i believe some people are born queer but i also truly believe sexuality is fluid and can change throughout someone’s life but we don’t really discuss that because if people thought of your sexuality as something that changes over time or simply the sex you choose to have at any given moment it would be harder to defend under the pretense that it’s this unchangable thing since birth. i think the notion that queer people are simply born this way (or more so how the notion is used) has lead to discomfort for people questioning their sexuality, people who’s sexuality has changed over time, people who discover late in life their sexuality, etc
I think with the gaylor thing a lot of people don’t realize that something has to be true for that to have happened and it doesn’t paint a trustworthy light for Taylor or Karlie Either bearding had to have happened and Karlies relationship isn’t real AND some of Taylor’s relationships were bearding and aren’t real and just for PR OR Taylor & Karlie cheated on their partners If Taylor Swift came out it would possibly out a lot of women … recently those specific women have came out themselves though (Liz Huett & Diana Agron) But if she came out she would lose a huge fan base because she’s heard globally & obviously there are still places where being gay is illegal & she’d lose her fan base there I think Taylor Swift is queer in some way and has expressed that but I don’t think she’ll ever formally come out because of all the reasons listed before and also because queer people don’t have to come out they can just be queer She’s just slowly being bi If you want a real mind fuck what if they’re all just poly
Hi! I just wanted to come in and maybe clear up some taylor swift stuff. Whether or not taylor swift is queer, she is not obligated to come out. She has explicitly stated that Betty is sung from the perspective of a teenage boy named James. It’s on the album folklore, which she has also explicitly stated is NOT autobiographical like her other albums. YNTCD is definitely iffy, however she has always been an outspoken advocate for LGBTQ+ rights. I am a queer fan. I am a long time fan (since 2006). She is not queerbaiting, and at the very least not intentionally or explicitly. Celebrities cannot queer bait and they deserve the opportunity to come out in their own time or not come out at all. Straight people using the LGBTQ+ community for profit are shitty, there’s no question about that. To be perfectly honest I’d rather let that slide than set an expectation of everyone in the public eye being required to explicitly state their sexuality as a prerequisite of being a public figure. fame is dehumanising enough without us also feeling entitled to information that any of us wouldn’t be expected to share if we weren’t ready or comfortable.
Ah god. I think the only time I felt queer baited with a show was for the anime NANA. So many of their problems would have been solved if they'd just been gay for each other. It is so tragic. I also feel similarly with Muriel's Wedding. It's a movie but it also will ruin the rest of your day because it is incredibly tragic and triggering if you have family issues and self harm issues. But yeah. I felt like in both the show and this movie that the characters HAD chemistry. They would have been so happy together as lesbian partners rather than try and be straight and miserable. Also the fucking butler and the nanny ending up being straight for each other in the Parent Trap movie by Disney starring Lindsay Lohan. Like.....THAT felt like queer baiting(Straight baiting?) to me too. They both seemed like they had a mlm/wlw solidarity thing going about them but then like the last 30 min they really pushed for a whole "They fell in love 🥺" narrative that I did not care for. As for real life people, I don't believe people should be held to the same standards that we hold fictional characters. You can be pissed off at how writers write characters and how they use gay gimmicks to add intrigue to the show while not actually letting characters be gay. But You cannot possibly be pissed off about why someone doesn't feel like coming out yet. It shouldn't be that people make a mob to force people to come out of the closet or else get socially "cancelled" for being queer-baity. Because people don't owe you complete sincerity for their gender identity or sexuality. They can be as open or closed off as they want to be.
I honestly think this topic wasn't a great one to do seeing as they didn't touch on queer baiting on Tv/Movies at all and then just said people can't queerbait in real life, which I agree with but then what was the point of the video if neither of them know anything or have any real opinions about the topic.
55:50 Betty is on the album folklore, which consists of songs that are stories (aka folklore, aka not about her life). It’s one pov of a love triangle (from James’s perspective talking to Betty), which also includes Cardigan (Betty’s perspective) and August (Augustine’s perspective). She’s not queerbating at all. Love you, guys, but don’t shit on things you’re ignorant about.
As someone who was a superwholock in high school (I will not apologize, cringe culture is dead and I'm tap dancing on its grave), Sherlock HEAVILY queer baited. They made a point to have other side characters or background characters assume Sherlock and Watson were partners at least once, but usually multiple times an episode, because they live in an apartment and work together. The majority of Watson's early relationships were shown to fall apart because he was more invested in Sherlock than other women. The only time Watson has a relationship with a woman get serious, is when he assumed Sherlock was dead for multiple years. Sherlock repeatedly ignores other women's advances, and the only time he's shown in an actual relationship is when he's using someone for access to secret files for a case. They basically become the closest and almost only people in each other's lives, try and sacrifice their lives for one another, and bicker like an old married couple. They were the gayest "straight" men.
i think it's pretty homophobic to assume that a woman that is attracted to women can't have close platonic relationships with other women, and assuming that if Taylor Swift came out as being attracted to women would out Karlie Kloss as attracted to women as well is homophobic, no matter what your own orientation is and if taylor was really that calculated, i don't think it would have taken her this long to rerecord the Red album in order own the full rights to the songs, she doesn't deserve so much credit, and by giving it to her you sound just like the Elon Musk fanboys that think him destroying twitter is him being a genius with plans beyond "our" comprehension
because spoiler!!! they don’t really end up together. but as kendahl mentioned they’re very homoerotic for each other but it doesn’t make sense plot wise for them to actually end up together. i think killing eve is not queer baiting, people just feel duped that one of the rare examples of wlw isn’t a domestic couple that ends up together but instead this spy and criminal who are like enemies AND lovers
for the Folklore & Evermore stans I think the key thing that makes it fictional is James is inspired by Taylor because Taylor was named after James Taylor and there’s no way that a coincidence Also Karlie Elizabeth (BETTY) Kloss was born on AUGUST 3 She told her story the way she could
With the song Betty: I PERSONALLY think it’s is a WLW story but she has also said Folklore and Evermore were her albums where she basically wrote a story, different than her others based on her experiences. I STILL think 👀👀 but I don’t think it’s that outright queer bait-y
Hey guys! I’m not sure how much control you have over the YT ads but they just showed one advertising a transphobic documentary made by some far right group. Just wanted to let y’all know! 🫶
people love to tell bisexuals they’re not queer just because they haven’t engaged in gay sex like same logic as saying a virgin can’t know their sexuality… being queer and having sex are two different things entirely
(not to mention asexual queers….)
Kit Conner deserved better and to come out on his own terms. It’s so sad how people forced him out of the closet. He’s a teenager figuring out life.
exactly
complete opposite of what heartstopper is about which was the most insane thing
@@oscarkamalano exactly!!! I think it's awful how he was forced out.
just an fyi, taylor swift has explicitly said that the song betty is written from the perspective of a teenage boy, not a female. the whole album that it's on is a story telling album, almost every song is written from a different pov instead of her own.
to answer Kendahl’s question about sherlock and supernatural: I watched supernatural, not sherlock, but ive seen enough clips of sherlock to know that both shows definitely play into the fact that they know the audience ships the male characters. even if it wasn’t intentional at first, they quickly became aware and would write in scenes to pander to it, never intending to follow through and make it canon. with supernatural, the show ended with one of the male characters finally confessing his love for the other, which is not reciprocated or mentioned again, and then the guy who confessed immediately went to SuperHell. so i get why fans felt betrayed by that after like 15 seasons of the show that only survived so long because of the fans, a huge portion of whom were obsessed with the idea of their ships becoming canon. Sarah Z has a video about it. Both shows wrote in a lot of ambiguous intense eyecontact/physical affection and jokes from other characters were constantly made about the fact that they seem like romantic partners. so while the audience’s delusion was definitely a part of it, queerbaiting was definitely present too.
the queerbaiting in Sherlock went absolutely crazy. Even in the first episode there were characters alluding to the idea of John and Sherlock being in a relationship.
My issue with queer baiting and people who accuse celebrities of queer baiting just because they won’t label their sexuality: no one owes you a label and should NOT be forced out. Just because someone primarily dates the opposite sex doesn’t mean they’re not bi or pan. I am bisexual, and haven’t come out to most of my old or family member simply because I tend to date men (when I date at all, and I live in a small town). It just feels like a conversation I don’t want to have to have until and unless I meet a woman I want to date. Coming out could cause stress and chaos in MY life and I’m not even a celebrity.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the people who get speculated about feel a similar way, on a bigger scale.
Queer baiting certainly happens, and is an issue- HOWEVER people shouldn’t be forced to come out just to stop being harassed.
I mean I don’t think it’s cool to assume anyone’s sexuality, and there have been celebs who have been forced “out.” I never publicly dated a woman and I’m married to a cis man but that doesn’t mean I’m not bisexual. 🤷♀️
Sarah so casually, “you never hooked up with your manager?” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Sarah asking "Are we right gays?" while looking at the camera felt like a progressive Dora episode.
Hi, not a diehard Swiftie at all but in her live session on Disney+ Taylor said that “Betty” is from the perspective of a character called James who is a teenage boy. Her lyrics also says “I’m just a teenage boy” 😊
Enjoyed the discussion on biphobia, gender, and speculating/forcing people out of the closet.
I wanna hear you guys talk about “Bearding” & PR relationships
I got ur fine line joke, Sarah
People are confused when trans people exist in general, but I am coming to terms with my sexuality recently, and they are 10000x more confused when I say that I'm bi. It doesn't help that a lot of people just think Bi men don't exist lol.
You guys talking about fan fiction made me think of one time I read Reba and Barbra Jean 😭
On Killing Eve: The romance comes directly from the toxicity and them hurting eachother. On paper its a police vs villain, cat and mouse game, but over the course of the seasons it becomes more and more unclear which one of them is actually worse. SPOILER ALERT>>>> It becomes apparent that villainelle's psychology is quite easily explained by her trauma, she is more childlike and damaged than first thought. VS Eve who you see as an every-day person, you start to learn she is actually pretty sick in the head, and probably born that way. I liked how they changed throughout the story and started to sort of meet in the middle, eve getting worse and villainelle getting better. I almost expected them to pass by eachother and for Eve to become the villain, that Villainelle would have to "Kill Eve", but unfortunately the final season sort of threw that away. Pls ignore the final season, it sucks. Just watch right up until the end of the finale of the previous season and leave it at that, it leaves a good amount to the imagination. Final season is just awful with a bad ending.
Preaacccchhh!!!!!
this was my favorite interview - yall couldnt keep it together and it was SO FUNNY
I am not a Taylor Swift fan and everything I know about her has been against my own will but I feel like Kendahls line of thinking re: the taylor swift, sexuality and karli Kloss makes a lot of sense (i have auDHD)
Betty was written from a males perspective. The whole folklore album is not about Taylor, might be inspired by her life. But ultimately as she has said it’s interconnected stories around a love triangle.
and also with the taylor swift "gaylors" I think people conflate personal queer relation to her songs with she herself being queer; you can relate on a different level while still understanding the original meaning. it doesn't mean she's a specific sexuality. it also tends to bring out a lot of biphobia with the ppl speculatig. Also Taylor has explicitly said Betty is from the perspective of James, a character.
You talking about how Dermatillomania thing while I'm sitting here picking my skin
👁️👁️also i had no idea it's an adhd thing that explains why I do it
I did my entire thesis on the representation of femme presenting queer folk in the media (and it's effect on young queer folk's development) and the amount of overlap with queer baiting and the like doom to all queer characters trope is so complex. Like 90 pages and 4 years of research complex, but also so important! SO thank you for bringing attention to the topic! If you ever want to hear a nearly 30 year old woman ramble about all these little queer shows you mentioned and how it subconsciously mentally damaged us (this is mostly me dramatizing) let me know
A lot of people confuse queer baiting with queer coding/subtext. The big difference is all on the intentions of the writers (because these terms are specifically about fiction). If the intention is to attract and retain queer audiences in the hopes of getting representation but with no pay off then it's queer baiting. if the writers intended to write queer characters and a queer story but didn't explicitly say it within the story, usually because they *can't* make it explicit, then it's not baiting, it's coding.
As someone who did watch Sherlock, I don't think the writers intentionally set up characters to be interpreted as queer AT FIRST but they saw that fans were loudly speculating it and pleading for it, so they leaned into it to keep viewers, attract more, but never intended to actually do anything sincere with it. For an example that's not queer baiting is Hannibal. The way the show is absolutely not queer baiting is because it's very clear they wrote a love story and that it was their intention to do so. And any fan of the show will tell you whatever the fuck they had goin on was way more intimate and homoerotic than if we had watched a feature length sex scene between Will and Hannibal. They didn't have to kiss or fuck or say "I am in love with him in a gay homosexual gay way" for us as viewers to understand. We knew the writers' intention.
As someone who isnt obsessed with shipping male characters, I always thought that John and Sherlock being portrayed as a bickering old couple was more like a running joke. I was surprised to find out how mad people were about it. They want men to have close friendships and then they get mad when its not sexual, its so weird.
Who's excited 🙋♀️
you should have had a Killing Eve expert on this episode, aka me. I volunteer for next time guys
I really think the whole "is harry styles queer" thing was purposefully done by him and his marketing team to separate his solo career from his 1D time. He needed to diversify his image and his team did impecable market research so see where he could take his music the best, to increase his audience and distance himself from the boyband image. His style change also played into that. This pivot is in my opinion why he is by far the most sucessfull of the 1D members, who all did not pivot their image post 1D and therefore did not really increase/diversify their audience. I cant say anything on his actual sexuality but I do think that his whole image was carefully engineered to where its at today including his outward closeness to the LGBTQ community. So in that sense what ever his sexuality may be, I think he is purposfuly profiting of the LGBTQ community
Be for real. Since the early days of 1D he has said queer things or written queer themes in his work. Not to mention his management is known to be homophobic.
We forgetting how much the fans harassed Harry and Louis into coming out bcos they were convinced they were dating? Harry has always had queer speculation and attracted a queer audience
Yeah cause he was out as bi in HS. Idk why they just don’t acknowledge it now
Them hammering home that Kit's character was bisexual in that show and people still reducing him to gay nonetheless is the epitome of the bi experience. I never watched the show though so I'm talking out of my ass rn
Edit: I do appreciate the brief discussion on biphobia, as you can see this is something I'm somewhat passionate on tackling.
didn’t expect sarah to come out and explain her theory on kaylor and gaylor
I feel like sometimes its pretty obvious when someone is queer but they just dont want to say it explicitly. Im not fully out but i dont really limit what i say so if you can put 2n2 together youd be able to tell what type of queer i am, but i wont say yes if someone asks me because i want the plausible deniability if a situation is dangerous
re: sherlock, literally in the first episode of the show watson asks sherlock if he has a gf, sherlock says no, he says "oh, do you have a boyfriend then... which is fine by the way" and sherlock looks at him like 🤨 "I know it's fine... and btw I'm flattered but I don't date" and this was just ONE of the many many many instances IN the show, and they heavily marketed the show's final season around a love confession between the two of them which turned out to be a fake out where sherlock said he loved a woman to hurt her bc he was forced to 💀 it was WILDDDD. the definition of queerbaiting
I don't think celebrities can queer bait. If I as an individual am allowed to say that I'm not sure what my sexuality is or that I'm still exploring, etc., why would a celebrity not also be allowed to do that?
i generally agree with this but have had a ton of discussions about this in relation to celebrities as people, versus celebrities as brands. Sarah and Kendahl touched on it in this episode but i think that celebrities as brands (and i think this almost exclusively applies to musicians because the nature of their art and work is far more personal) can queer bait, or use subtext clues to signal to their audience that they are or are not queer. i ultimately think the larger issue is that celebrities are not really free to express themselves without pressure from their management to maintain ambiguity and therefore a wider appeal. similarly, openly coming out can have a negative impact on sales or campaigns because of homophobia, transphobia, etc. also… we are all far too invested in parasocial relationships with these celebrities and we can’t just enjoy the art without attaching it to a figure (because that sells more merchandise, more records, etc.)
I think there is a difference between exploring your queer identity and purposefully manufacturing a queer identity, which is what some celebrities do.
@@halfpine9952 do they actually though? what does a manufactured queer identity look like?
let's assume for the sake of the argument Harry Styles is straight, only interested in women and that he identifies as a man. he would still be totally allowed to dress the way he does, act the way he does, and not want to answer questions about his sexuality/identity. that is a 10000% valid thing to do. being in the public eye and being a "brand" doesn't mean that you should immediately lose right to being an individual with privacy boundaries and the freedom to express yourself.
on a more serious note….. mlm relationships have historically had way fewer explicit relationships in media and rely more on subtext, ie johnlock, supernatural, etc. queerbaiting in media is largely relating to mlm relationships. wlw relationships have more representation (bc of the objectification of women, which is a whole other convo) but at least in media analysis, queerbaiting is overwhelmingly a “mlm problem”
This is a good point but
The lesbian representation you mention isn't actually representation because its made for men. It's never geared towards us, a lot of actual good rep for lesbians is canceled early on. this fetishizations of lesbians cannot be considered representation because we are never taken seriously . It's seen more as a kink than a sexuality because they don't actually believe lesbians are actually lesbians because lesbian is the only sexuality to exclude men completely and in a patriarchal society that is seen as impossible.
@@Lesbianmonstertruck i agree now that you’ve said it actually, sooo so so much of it shouldn’t really be considered real representation, absolutely. and i think it’s equal comparison could be the way that a lot of mlm media in the last 15~years has been catered to or made by women that fetishize gay men. i think mlm and wlw queerbaiting just exist in different spheres and in different ways and it’s interesting to see how they’re different
Holy shot holy shit! I got really into Harry Potter fanfic when one of my best friends died! Super sad that that happened, but what a weird pipeline.
1:15:32 I don’t know if Kendahl is trying to be British, Kiwi or Australian but I don’t think she has ever heard either speak 😂😂 as a brit the accent made me laugh so hard
Why was kendahl so freaking funny on this episode
I hope I'm not annoying live commenting. I just really love y'all and I'm a stay at home mom and it's filling my cup to listen and comment and boost engagement.
You do you, honestly it's like more engagement so its a good thing!
Girl im here for it
Kendall that ad read was ✨fenom✨
Ayyy dermatillomania gang
I GASPED AT THE THUMBNAIL LMAO I CANT WAIT FOR THIS
Sarah’s sarcasm cuts like a knife bro🤣
3:43 sleeping to this podcast and i snort-laughed so loud i woke my cat up (hes upsetti spaghetti but omg 😂)
(sorry you went through that but omg Ty for the comic relief in my life 🤘😂😂😂😂)
Betty by Taylor Swift is part of a fictional love triangle she created and is sung from the POV of a straight man named James. He’s singing to another character in the triangle named Betty. There are 2 other songs from other characters POVs. She’s talked about this in the making of folklore and other interviews. Just thought you should know the backstory on it!
The only "evidence" that really gets me about the whole Taylor Swift thing is the photo she posted of a bracelet that says "Pride" with bi colors (I say this as a bi person lol). I just can't think of another explanation for it. But at the same time, if she is bi and doesn't wanna come out that's okay.
And though I do have some criticisms for Taylor Swift, I think it's nice that so many sapphic people (me included) can easily read so many of her songs through a queer lens, regardless of her sexuality. Interpreting things your own way is what art is about.
that bracelet was giving to her by a fan during the Lover secret sessions so she might've not even seen what it actually said or gotten what it stands for 😅@@maggiedk
@@CruelSummer101ohhhh that makes sense, thank you for letting me know!
Exactly! This part annoyed me bc they’re clearly ignorant about this!
Taylor Swift’s 1989 (Taylor’s Version) prologue: “If I only hung out with my female friends, people couldn’t sensationalize or sexualize that, right? I would learn later on that people could and people would.”
Betty is written from the perspective of a teenage boy. folklore and evermore are not biographical albums like her other ones. They highlight her storytelling abilities because she writes about multiple scenarios from different viewpoints.
came here to say this ^
Exactly I'm fairly certain Taylor wasn't also in the military but people don't seem to have had this epiphany..
because inventing a scenario where she has to write an apology song from the perspective of a teenage boy to a teenage girl is the epitome of heterosexuality… (i say this as a swiftie, and one who believes taylor is bisexual)
@@cholbs1998 it’s the epitome of her being a talented storyteller. Plenty of authors write from the perspective of other people and the opposite sex. It doesn’t mean they’re suddenly attracted to the same sex because they do so. She also says she likes to use her songs to teach men how to apologize and switching perspectives is one way she does it.
@@oliviamayer24601 and historians will call them gal pals
About Killing Eve (spoilers ahead): the major problem people had with this (at least at the time of the finale) was the "bury your gays" trope. They kind of allowed the two women to have a relationship, but one of them dies in the last episode. Not technically queerbaiting, but still shitty
LOVED the Gaycation skit! LMAOOOO!
I understand that queer people’s need to be on guard about queer baiting, but sometimes people jump on it too quickly. For example when the first season of Our Flag Means Death came out people accused it of queer baiting before the first season had even finished. Sometimes it feels like queer baiting accusations can be limiting of the types of queer stories that can be told. Just because the queerness of one type of story doesn’t fit a certain mold, doesn’t mean it’s “queer baiting”.
the term "queer bait" has been around for a lot longer than the internet lol my sister called me that in the 80s (plot twist we're both raging queers, wheeeeee)
i bet ted cranstons punching the air since yall didn’t edit his spoiler out🤭
Elliot page did a show called Gaycation
I would tell y’all to do a deep dive on Taylor swifts queer coding, but a lot of swifties hate when people talk about it soooo maybe not 😅
the concept that queer people are “born this way” was created out of a necessity to prove that queerness is natural therefore we shouldn’t punish it. i believe some people are born queer but i also truly believe sexuality is fluid and can change throughout someone’s life but we don’t really discuss that because if people thought of your sexuality as something that changes over time or simply the sex you choose to have at any given moment it would be harder to defend under the pretense that it’s this unchangable thing since birth. i think the notion that queer people are simply born this way (or more so how the notion is used) has lead to discomfort for people questioning their sexuality, people who’s sexuality has changed over time, people who discover late in life their sexuality, etc
Such a good one ❤
I think with the gaylor thing a lot of people don’t realize that something has to be true for that to have happened and it doesn’t paint a trustworthy light for Taylor or Karlie
Either bearding had to have happened and Karlies relationship isn’t real AND some of Taylor’s relationships were bearding and aren’t real and just for PR
OR
Taylor & Karlie cheated on their partners
If Taylor Swift came out it would possibly out a lot of women … recently those specific women have came out themselves though (Liz Huett & Diana Agron)
But if she came out she would lose a huge fan base because she’s heard globally & obviously there are still places where being gay is illegal & she’d lose her fan base there
I think Taylor Swift is queer in some way and has expressed that but I don’t think she’ll ever formally come out because of all the reasons listed before and also because queer people don’t have to come out they can just be queer
She’s just slowly being bi
If you want a real mind fuck what if they’re all just poly
I LOVE RUPERT GRINT
Yes!! ❤
Hi! I just wanted to come in and maybe clear up some taylor swift stuff. Whether or not taylor swift is queer, she is not obligated to come out. She has explicitly stated that Betty is sung from the perspective of a teenage boy named James. It’s on the album folklore, which she has also explicitly stated is NOT autobiographical like her other albums. YNTCD is definitely iffy, however she has always been an outspoken advocate for LGBTQ+ rights. I am a queer fan. I am a long time fan (since 2006). She is not queerbaiting, and at the very least not intentionally or explicitly. Celebrities cannot queer bait and they deserve the opportunity to come out in their own time or not come out at all. Straight people using the LGBTQ+ community for profit are shitty, there’s no question about that. To be perfectly honest I’d rather let that slide than set an expectation of everyone in the public eye being required to explicitly state their sexuality as a prerequisite of being a public figure. fame is dehumanising enough without us also feeling entitled to information that any of us wouldn’t be expected to share if we weren’t ready or comfortable.
Ah god. I think the only time I felt queer baited with a show was for the anime NANA. So many of their problems would have been solved if they'd just been gay for each other. It is so tragic. I also feel similarly with Muriel's Wedding. It's a movie but it also will ruin the rest of your day because it is incredibly tragic and triggering if you have family issues and self harm issues. But yeah. I felt like in both the show and this movie that the characters HAD chemistry. They would have been so happy together as lesbian partners rather than try and be straight and miserable.
Also the fucking butler and the nanny ending up being straight for each other in the Parent Trap movie by Disney starring Lindsay Lohan. Like.....THAT felt like queer baiting(Straight baiting?) to me too. They both seemed like they had a mlm/wlw solidarity thing going about them but then like the last 30 min they really pushed for a whole "They fell in love 🥺" narrative that I did not care for.
As for real life people, I don't believe people should be held to the same standards that we hold fictional characters. You can be pissed off at how writers write characters and how they use gay gimmicks to add intrigue to the show while not actually letting characters be gay. But You cannot possibly be pissed off about why someone doesn't feel like coming out yet. It shouldn't be that people make a mob to force people to come out of the closet or else get socially "cancelled" for being queer-baity. Because people don't owe you complete sincerity for their gender identity or sexuality. They can be as open or closed off as they want to be.
I honestly think this topic wasn't a great one to do seeing as they didn't touch on queer baiting on Tv/Movies at all and then just said people can't queerbait in real life, which I agree with but then what was the point of the video if neither of them know anything or have any real opinions about the topic.
55:50 Betty is on the album folklore, which consists of songs that are stories (aka folklore, aka not about her life). It’s one pov of a love triangle (from James’s perspective talking to Betty), which also includes Cardigan (Betty’s perspective) and August (Augustine’s perspective). She’s not queerbating at all. Love you, guys, but don’t shit on things you’re ignorant about.
As someone who was a superwholock in high school (I will not apologize, cringe culture is dead and I'm tap dancing on its grave), Sherlock HEAVILY queer baited. They made a point to have other side characters or background characters assume Sherlock and Watson were partners at least once, but usually multiple times an episode, because they live in an apartment and work together. The majority of Watson's early relationships were shown to fall apart because he was more invested in Sherlock than other women. The only time Watson has a relationship with a woman get serious, is when he assumed Sherlock was dead for multiple years. Sherlock repeatedly ignores other women's advances, and the only time he's shown in an actual relationship is when he's using someone for access to secret files for a case. They basically become the closest and almost only people in each other's lives, try and sacrifice their lives for one another, and bicker like an old married couple. They were the gayest "straight" men.
Ive asked multiple times but what does bcc mean bro i feel like its not posted anywhere 😭
Blind carbon copy
Realizing I’m not a sociopath after all bc I always have anxiety 😂
Sociopaths feel anxiety. Sarah is wrong here.
Kurtis conner
i think it's pretty homophobic to assume that a woman that is attracted to women can't have close platonic relationships with other women, and assuming that if Taylor Swift came out as being attracted to women would out Karlie Kloss as attracted to women as well is homophobic, no matter what your own orientation is
and if taylor was really that calculated, i don't think it would have taken her this long to rerecord the Red album in order own the full rights to the songs, she doesn't deserve so much credit, and by giving it to her you sound just like the Elon Musk fanboys that think him destroying twitter is him being a genius with plans beyond "our" comprehension
Vyvanse gang
Real people can't queer bait
Why was killing eve queer baiting?
because spoiler!!! they don’t really end up together. but as kendahl mentioned they’re very homoerotic for each other but it doesn’t make sense plot wise for them to actually end up together. i think killing eve is not queer baiting, people just feel duped that one of the rare examples of wlw isn’t a domestic couple that ends up together but instead this spy and criminal who are like enemies AND lovers
for the Folklore & Evermore stans
I think the key thing that makes it fictional is James is inspired by Taylor because Taylor was named after James Taylor and there’s no way that a coincidence
Also Karlie Elizabeth (BETTY) Kloss was born on AUGUST 3
She told her story the way she could
Taylor said in an interview she named the characters after Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds’s kids: Betty, James, and Inez
@@oliviamayer24601People lie ya know.
@@AlexElliott03 that’s.. literally the names of their kids
Betty is written from the perspective of a guy i’m pretty sure
With the song Betty: I PERSONALLY think it’s is a WLW story but she has also said Folklore and Evermore were her albums where she basically wrote a story, different than her others based on her experiences.
I STILL think 👀👀 but I don’t think it’s that outright queer bait-y
ariana grande doesn’t have a label on her sexuality so yeah
Harry has been out as bi in highschool.
Hey guys! I’m not sure how much control you have over the YT ads but they just showed one advertising a transphobic documentary made by some far right group. Just wanted to let y’all know! 🫶
they don't have control. That ad has been showing up on queer content for a few weeks now - unfortunate! I just block it every time I see it
Creators don’t have control over ads, only sponsors