Great series, I miss the days when a documentary was not only a series but didn't repeat itself every five minutes. I watched a recent documentary that was 45 minutes long and only contained 15 minutes of actual information, the other 30 minutes was spent repeating what they said multiple times.
Yes, indeed 😊 - if only the BBC would commission Michael Wood to do a similar QUALITY follow up series with the more recent developments and archeological discoveries in this region and the new theories based on these - instead of the usual very rushed, superficial and often fooling-around programmes with lame jokes etc. that seems to be the very sad norm these days.
"In the archaeological record, love leaves no trace". What a poetic ending by Michael Wood to the greatest poetic saga in history and a brilliantly compelling documentary! 😘
I've always have been obsessed with Greek Mythology, but especially the Trojan War, Homer's Iliad made life for me as a child one filled with joy. The story of the Trojan War gave me my first taste of adventure and war, I was so important to be that I would carried a copy of Homer's Iliad everywhere and I would put it under my pillow, I could not sleep without my Iliad. As a child, Marvel's Heroes did not interest me, but the heroes in the Iliad, like Diomedes, Memnon, the sons of Priam (Hector, Deiphobus, Troilus, Helenus, Pammon, etc...), Antilochus, Nestor, Spardeon, etc... they were and still are so dear to me. I will read the Iliad, and the stories of Greek Mythology to my current baby boys when they grow old enough to understand and can be read to.
Have you tried Eric Shanower's _Age of Bronze_ ? It's a beautifully drawn graphic novel series about the Trojan War and its epic heroes, meticulously researched, that I hope he will finish.
@@fuferito I have to thank you for commenting, funny thing is I lost this account but recently gained access to it, but its good to know that people showed interest in my post.
I’m a seasoned history buff so this is far from the first time I’ve heard about the Bronze Age Collapse, but it’s usually presented in a dry, academic manner. The way Michael Wood describes it in this episode can only be described as haunting.
It's been wonderful to watch this series at Christmas 2018. I remember seeing it when it was first shown but not appreciating it as I can now. In hindsight, in the light of modern documentary styles, it has a dream like quality, perhaps bardic, almost as though Wood's singing it in Homeric fashion. No cheapo dramatic enactments, just his person, voice and beautiful camera work to accompany the story. A truly great series!
@matthewgabbard6415 I don't know the BBC used to commission big budget history/natural history documentaries that were about 10 episodes long and packed with content. There's very little like that now, even the Brian Cox astronomy series have completely lost the plot.
Mountainmanws: Sometimes it does. I have seen a fantastic documentary on the Hittites and there we find a love story of a Hittite King and his wife written on the small clay tablets. But it is usually true. History talks of kings and heroes not love.
This is one of my favorite documentary series ever. Michael Wood is one of the best presenters - I only wish this could've been made recently, as so much more has been discovered about Troy since the 80s
This is a fascinating and moving documentary on mankind, the bronze age and, unintentionally, on the beginning of the computer age... I've enjoyed every minute! Thank you for posting!
Please don't forget to watch the equally brilliant BBC Horizon programme called "The 2000 Year Old Computer" - but be very careful or your jaw will drop to the floor 😂
Only three?!? 😉 At least six times in my case 🤗 - this is the best such documentary ever by a long distance. I often recommend it to people, who are interested in history and archeology, and they are astonished by its high standards and by its slow but informative pace I really wish he & the BBC would do a thorough follow up in the "same" style about what has been discovered at Troy and elsewhere in that region since that time. Taking his time to do it properly and in depth - instead of all these rushed and often very superficial modern documentaries with silly reenactments and foolish hosts with huge egoes, who think the story is more about them
Michael wood at his best. The sound track very evocative-- the roll of drums enthralling. The appearance of sea people after the destruction of Troy is here given an explanation, so I think. Homer placed Helen in the story to give it a human twist as he possibly did not know the political workings between nations of the times before he lived. Hollywood always existed.
Michael Wood's incredible documentaries inspired me to create my own channel. Head on over for videos on Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Ancient History and much more. New videos uploaded weekly.
Michael Wood, huh? What a guy! An excellent researcher, writer, presenter and producer..where does Britain get people like him and John Romer and James Burke? I also think that it's wonderful that the digital generation has some archival footage of Michael Wood engaging in the arcane and antiquated art of developing an exposed celluloid film ..."exposed to what?" they ask...
Started this series several weeks ago thanks to an old reddit post discusding this topic and just finished it today. I'm so glad I did, I had never heard from this documentary but its so well done, what a great ending quote. Will be rewatching it in the future for sure.
I've loved every minute of this documentary, and the Michael Wood documentary on Alexander the Great. This specific documentary is older than me and I'm just now watching it for the first time. Tremendous.
What a great documentary. Truly learned a lot. I still say that the bards (i.e. Tribal historians) would have learned the stories verbatim. The Oral Tradition, before the printing press was invented, was characterized by the ability to memorize huge bodies of poetry or prose, for the express purpose of handing down history unscathed.
I saw this series in 1985. Recently, I've rediscovered it and rewatched it on RUclips. Back then and now I find it hard to believe that Homer or any bard or storyteller would compose and pass on a saga based on a war over a broken down shantytown. I realize that stories become epics as, over time, they are retold and embellished, but wouldn't other grand cities which still had great wealth and towering walls be more likely candidates as the subject of the story? Why pick a miserable, poor excuse for a city as the inspiration for a mesmerizing tale of love, war, sacrifice, and tragedy? I choose to believe Troy VI was the Troy of the "Iliad", and not a plot of squatters, because that's what makes sense.
I love this documentary and the great Professor Michael Wood. Also In the Footsteps of Alexander was awesome also (Bettany Hughes rated it in the top 50 documentaries) but it was taken off and can be seen on Wood's Maya Vision. I wanted to address the ten year thing., I have read practically every book on the subject (try Barry Strauss's or Eric Cline's) and the 10 years is NOT meant to be taken literally. There are two reasons that they give #1 they (Homer) means over a ten year period they fought off and on AND #2 the way time periods are described in ancient Greek. Just mlike you cannot absolutely say that there was and Ajax with the big huge shield as the Professor says in Episode #3. Homer is not meant to be taken strictly literally. But there is no doubt there was a Trojan War and I recommend reading some of the great books on the subject. I love reading about ancient history. Love everything on the Hittites (loved the wonderful old English professor's in this doc Ken Kitchen especially) and recommend the Hittite doc narrated by Jeremy Irons if Smithsonian hasn't taken it off again. Oh and the fabulous flute music by Terry Oldfield!!!!!!!
10 year sieges are not unheard of for late bronze age-early iron age warfare. It's more like early attempts at blockade. Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre lasted 13 years. Tyre was able to resupply by Siege. The Babylonians couldn't be dislodged, but couldn't take the city. And we hear of sieges lasting 3-5 years all the time. Also, search for "Mycenaean tower shield." Some scholars say that these were only used in the 16th-14th century bc, but this era isn't documented like the classical era. Judgments like this are based entirely on archeological finds and art, and where those finds get placed chronologically. We can't say that tower shields were still popular in 1350bc, but were not used at all anymore by 1250bc. How would Homer know of them?
Ya I really think it would be almost impossible to tell the difference in an earthquake or the destruction after a long war. I'm like him I started this series thinking the Trojan War was mostly myth but now at the end I think it's mostly true. The Trojan War really happened wow ! :-) Michael Wood is an excellent presentor and historian. If you like this then watch his series about the Dark Age Kings of Britain. I think it's called In Search of The Dark Ages.
He likes to be seen driving around in his Fiat 131 Mirafiori. Music is probably made with Fairlight CMI workstation which is another end of the 70s, beginning of 80s icon, very expensive early digital music workstationl.
An extraordinary documentary in its time more than 30 yrs. ago but now quite outdated. An addendum of what has been learned since then would be difficult because there is just too much new information.
Equally historians in 3000 years might be looking for evidence WWII happened, all they might have to go on is the song White Cliffs of Dover, some mass graves in Normandy and a sunken battleship near Malta. It would be almost impossible to work out what happened just from that.
Part of me thinks there could be something really to this. That something like the Illaid would be the result of an earlier war. The other part of me thinks this is a case of special pleading, that his in Search of the Dark Ages was much more rigorous about its standard of evidence.
Also check out the video Great Battles Was there a Trojan War through Penn Museum. The lecture by Brian Rose eminent historian and archaeologist and one of the excavators at Troy for the last 25 years is awesome!!!! He started with the late Manfred Korfmann plus he's very funny!! These lectures through Penn are great. Also check out the lectures on Bronze Age Greece by Andrea Berlin. Enjoy! I devour everything I can find on Crete, The Minoans, Troy, Alexander vs Darius, Bronze Age all of it! I never just read one book or watch one video. Read all and then decide! Love English history also!!
"In the archaeological record, love leaves no trace." I beg to differ, Mr Wood. What about the Taj Mahal? Perhaps this was not a story of love after all, but of wrongdoing?
even tho the uploader artificially inflates the number of likes on these uploads (yep!) i'm loving that there's no ridiculous channel cross-branding and no uploader-imposed endless string of ads with these clear, high-quality uploads
So the independence of the city states ultimately led to their downfall. Unable to unite against a common enemy, one by one the cities of the "Palace Civilisation" were overcome and destroyed. Was Troy destroyed by this same wave of invaders from the north, the so-called "Sea People" or was the shanty town of Troy VIIa the victim of this invasion, built on the ruins of the great city destroyed by the Mycenaean Achaeans, who themselves returned home victorious only to be destroyed shortly afterwards ? Are the tragic stories of Agamemnon and other kings who died after returning home from Troy based on the story of the invasion and destruction of the Mycenaean civilization ? Or were terrible droughts the cause of the downfall of the Mycenaean and Hittite civilizations, the Sea Peoples just volatile refugees from these areas? Maybe droughts in large areas and flooding in others by heavy rainfall caused people to rise against their former rulers, destroy their great cities, then take to the sea looking for new homes ? Finally, who can possibly differentiate the destruction of a city by earthquake or by military action ? The results look the same, there are destroyed buildings and burning. The fact is that one cannot determine one from the other. Was it even possible that an earthquake toppled some of the defensive walls of Troy during the siege, allowing the Greeks into the city to burn and destroy ? I personally believe that Troy VI was Homer's Troy, the city destroyed by the Achaeans, and Troy VIIa was the shanty town built on its ruins, but that is just my opinion. I am at least in good company with Michael Wood. 😜
Something pivotal happened in the Mediterranean world around 1230-1299 BC. I'm inclined to believe that it was the Volcanic eruption of Sestos, which directly decimated the Minoan and Hittite civilizations. I think that what archeologists need to do is take some sea bed cores and track the ash/eruption from Sestos as it spread across the Mediterranean area..
Wouldn't the Egyptians have recognized Mycenaens if they were a substantial part of the Sea Peoples? A few here and there might go unnoticed as part of the hordes, but any large number must have been familiar to the Egyptians. Surely the Egyptians would have named them as such.
Interesting point. Here's my view. Looking back, we are "lumpers" - we apply the label "Mycenaens" (or "Achaeans") to a large number of different but related states and polities. The Egyptians were "splitters" and make fine distinctions (Sherden, Sheklesh, Lukka, Tursha, Akawasha, Peleset, Tjeker, Denen, Weshesh) some of which would fall under our broad category. Perhaps it's a little like "Europeans" versus "French", "Germans", "Italians" etc.
Maybe it is both, Greece laid siege to Troy, at some point an earthquake hit which gave them access to sack and destroy the city. Would explain Poseidon being the God of Earthquakes and Horses.
It would also be more plausible if the siege really did last 10 years. Could a city back then have enough food though to last 10 years? I know Leningrad was under siege for years.
Troy VI or Troy VIIa? How about both? Mycenae lay siege to Troy for whatever reason...honor or economics...and while laying siege, an earthquake hit, breaching the walls and allowing the Mycenaeans to take the city.
The Sea Peoples. Aside from decline in the cultures they overran due to climate change,earthquakes etc; what edge could they possibly have had that would have allowed them to over-run those cultures? Were the Sea Peoples possibly the first to employ iron weapons and tech?
He does not even mention that the whole story of the Illiad surrounds the sacking of a city and the capture of Briesis by Achilles and the argument which results when Agammenon takes her .....
True. The broader context of The Illiad and The Odyssey (which, for examples, actually describes a Sea Peoples style attack on Egypt) supports quite strongly the idea that the poems are echoes of a lived reality. Michael Wood had a lot of territory to cover!
If Paris and Helen existed so did Hector and achilles their names are just as prominent and important has King Priam and Agamemnon they would essentially be no point in believing in the story if you didn't believe in that but that's the problem with facts that are that old it's more about belief than it is any evidence you're ever going to find I imagine that's why Homer tried to record all of it 500 years after the fact but history 500 years old to us isn't that clouded so I imagine in his time he was that much closer to when it happened and we were so I would trust his account more after all it is the only one we really have
I think one could actually tell earthquake from annihilation. An earthquake would leave a pattern of destruction all in the direction of the shockwave. To take a city, or citadel by force a scheme of damage would be left as the assault took on, first, the defences then the seat of command then the resulting plunder. Conquered Berlin from 1945 did not look like it had been hit by an earthquake whereas as Fukushima 2011 did.
Please don't forget to watch this fascinating 2004 interview with Michael Wood about the making of this brilliant series and its exciting content. ruclips.net/video/g7vr3sg74lA/видео.html
Good series, but the main reason I am skeptical about an earthquake is that it sounds more dramatic than simply sneaking in. The Biblical battle of Jericho emphasized divine intervention bringing the walls down (probably via an earthquake) while skeptics think Israelites just sneaked in
Teankun I agree that an earthquake explanation is a bit far fetched. The Trojan horse certainly feels like it could just be a metaphor for some sort of sneak in raid. The only problem is why would it have taken the Greeks ten years to find a way in? If they did sneak in (which I still think is likely) then the length of the Trojan war is almost certainly an exaggeration. Then again, Homer was a poet at the end of the day, so it's probable he did exaggerate stuff.
of course they snuck in--even Michael Wood suggests it: he is implying that the earthquake happened, and this created a gap that the soldiers snuck through at night. The rest, as they say, was history: the place was sacked, the rest of the walls cast down. This would explain why it took so long: without the earthquake, there was no way in (those were the days before battering rams and siege towers). Also, it may not even have been a siege: there is only one camp described--just west of the cit; Homer doesn't suggest siege lines--something even people back then had (e.g. Siege of Megiddo). If this is so, it's possible they simply camped outside, and used it as a base of operations to raid and pillage; we certainly see in the Iliad mention of Thracians and "Aethiopians" at war with the Achaeans. So the two ideas are not mutually exclusive: they may even compliment each other. And Poseidon was the god of earthquakes and the sea, and his animal was the horse. It may well be that the horse was either offered in thanks, or in prayer. Either way, the use of a horse here is very specific: why not a bull, or a man, or some other creature? why specifically a horse--an animal associated with earthquakes?
@@Albukhshi That makes no sense. If there had been an earthquake, the Trojans would have immediately done a survey of the city to establish the walls were still unbreachable, and repair/defend them. If they had been killed by the earthquake and could not do this, the Achaians would not have needed to sneak in.
@@alitanicholas9579 Who said those were the only two options? Consider: Depending on how chaotic the situation is, this may not happen. What if the Government/command went down? No coherent plan = no survey. Even if they did, if enough soldiers had been killed (or enough breeches affected, or both), there wouldn't necessarily be enough men to adequately guard the damaged section. So, the Achaeans would still have to sneak in: they'd just be sneaking into an unguarded section (or a poorly-guarded one). Maybe this happened while the Greeks were off in a raid or something and were not expected to return. Then, when the Greeks come back, they'd find a totally unprepared people, focusing on rescue and salvage. Or, maybe they didn't sneak in: they realized the enemy was bad off, and simply rushed one of the places, and with the losses, they'd be unable to defend themselves. Of course, this is all hypothetical: we don't even know if this was true for sure. But it is a possibility raised by the elements of the story. For all we know, there was no Earthquake, no siege, not batteekh--to use the phrase back home.
Ultimately this whole search says less about the so-called heroic age of Greece and a great deal about us. For 30 centuries or more it didn't matter to anyone whether the Trojan war was a historical fact. The very question would have been beyond irrelevant. It's only in the last century+30 or so years that it became almost psychotically important 😂 We use the word, myth, to mean falsehood. Perhaps we've simply lost the mental faculty to understand their meaning. Lovely series though!
Excellent documentary. However I am left with many questions. Because the Berlin Wall was real does that mean James Bond existed? And that is the problem, Its entirely possible that the entire story was actually recalling events from a different culture altogether with elements overlaid with local details provided by a different story to make the telling more palatable for a local audience. It is also possible that many of the embellishments came from previous stories and amalgamated. What we may have evidence for is a very good story teller who was able to draw in a raft of elements to make good tale. Like all good tales some elements are made up to make the tale better. The break down of the story could have happened anywhere early cities developed, A fortified city on a hill by water, there was a insult of some form, call to arms, extended siege, heroic deeds by larger than life heroes, a trick or surprising event that ended it all. It would be fascinating to see if any other cultures have any stories like Troy if they do it would make sense to check them out. I would recommend any of the cultures that the ancient world that traded with each other could offer clues to is origins. Because of its oral roots Its also possible the story was one from an even earlier culture assigned to Greece. The other reason I am sceptical is that several other stories from antiquity have also proven to be problematic. The hanging gardens of Babylon are not in Babylon however a neighbouring city did have astounding gardens. Now the name of the city with gardens has been lost. However when people were recounting the seven wonders of name gave the hanging gardens to the city next door, Babylon. Its in the same general location. So we have the hanging gardens credit to Babylon when in fact they had none. In other words they used the name of the place they knew. Also there is no evidence in for the Exodus story not even a single shard of pottery. Its likely that Troy was transposed into the story from another story. I doubt very much Troy is actually where it is stated now. Cities being laid siege too preparation and aftermath happened all over the ancient world and not unqiue to the supposed Troy mentioned in this doco. People want this place to be Troy so they see evidence to support that idea.. The other issues is we don't have a full copy of the original. I think its a fantastic Story and nothing else. I doubt strongly there was an age of heroes. However until more is found to support the theory we should enjoy it for what it is. A great classic tale of daring do.
Babylon referred to both the city and the region. Herodotus may simply have not been informed of the name of (the very cursed) city where it was--Ninua (aka Nineveh). Or he may well have assumed people knew. We know it was there, because king Sennacherib describes building a massive and super-sexy garden, watered by Archimedes screws (which are named in the Assyrian dialect after a breed of palm tree). There was a documentary about this IIRC on Nat-Geo. If Exodus happened, it probably happened the way Manetho described it (he was an Egyptian priest). Josephus specifically wrote against the account, because it was (to him, anyway), pretty insulting. In it, Manetho writes of a prince who rebelled against Amenhotep III, rejected the gods of Egypt, and led a bad of desperadoes and "Asiatics" out of Egypt. So you're probably looking in the wrong place. "It would be fascinating to see if any other cultures have any stories like Troy if they do it would make sense to check them out. I would recommend any of the cultures that the ancient world that traded with each other could offer clues to is origins" Oh, you mean like Harb al-basus? or what oral tradition says about Zenobia? (So Arab culture) Then again, the Arabs didn't have a dark age on the same scale as the Greeks (though the time between the war and the first written accounts is IIRC 300 and 600 years after the facts, respectively). So we can see how time in an illiterate society can affect the stories--since we don't have quite as strong a distortion as we see among the Greeks. So here goes: there were two tribes: Bakr and Taghlib. Bakr owned much land in the Hijaz and Tihamah, of prime importance. Taghlib was expanding toward it. But they remained at peace, till a woman (basus), parked her camel improperly. The camel wondered off into Bakr territory, whereupon Kulayb Wa'il--its chief--saw it and shot it dead. Basus was outraged, and demanded her honor be satistied. So Jassas b. Murrah went and gutted Kulayb like a fish. Kulayb's brother then demanded diyya (wirgelt), and when this was refused, he killed Jassas and two other men. The result was 40 years war, which ended when that brother (aka az-zeir salim), killed a hostage from a tribe which was otherwise neutral. The father--who was a chief of that tribe--then swore he'd kill every male of Bakr, until the Earth spoke to him. only a few survived--and they because they found out where the guy was traveling, hid a man in a gulley, and had him speak to the fellow--thus fulfilling his oath. Zeir Salim spent the rest of his days an outcast, tended only by his daughter. Bakr had to move to Najd. This is surprisingly accurate-sounding: it all has the ring of truth. You can see the real reason for the war clear as day: Taghlib wanted Bakr's water supply; the camel was a pretext. And Arabs even today are known to harbor decades-old grudges...As you can see, religion really isn't the issue there: everyone in this story was a pagan. Another example of a story o this type, involves Zenobia and Amr b. Uday (both real people): Zenobia apparently lost either her father or husband (Udhayna) to a man named Judhayma al-abrash (that second part means "Vitiglio-stricken"; the sh was so that he wouldn't catch that--the correct form is al-abraS). So she lured him to tadmur (aka Palmyra), and killed him, by slitting his wrist over a Tist (a type of bowl). She was warned by the priest not to spill blood out of the Tist, but some did drip out. This caused the curse of the gods to fall on her, and so allowed the rest of the story to unfold (again, remember: them were pagan times for Arabs). Yes, this was a ritual sacrifice, coating over a revenge-killing...creepy. Judhayma's right-hand man was mournful, and vowed revenge. He helped Judhayma's nephew become king of the Tanukhids (Judhayma's tribe), and his native Lakhm tribe. This created the Lakhmid kingdom. He then asked him if he could "slander" the king, to get back at Zenobia. Amr didn't really care--he had a lot on his plate as it was. So the man had his servant scourge him, and he cut off his own nose. He then went to Tadmur in rags, and said the new king had punished him for letting Judhayma be abducted and ritually sacrified (Arabs apparently were at this as late as the 4th century, when we hear of a sacrifice on a "rival Kaaba" to al-ilah--though here the purpose was to defile the place, and destroy its pretended "7rurm" status. Zenobia took pity, and let him in her confidence. With this, he got the plans to the city, gave it to Amr, and Amr was able to infiltrate the city and sack it. Zenobia sucked on a poison ring just as Amr was about to cut her down, and so died. Now, obviously this is a load of crap: Zenobia was defeated by Aurelian, and did not commit suicide, and Amr, while a contemporary of hers, didn't have anything to do with her defeat: he did unify the two tribes after Judhayma's death (either in an ambush or battle), but his efforts were directed toward the Persian Gulf and eastern Syrian desert. However, this shouldn't be surprising: this all happened in the 3rd century, and none of this was written down by Arabs until the 9th century. So it looks like the cut-off for accurate history is around 400 years or so--since the stories prior to the 4th century have been very distorted (the Zenobia one is one of the tamer stories); events from the 4th century onward seem to be largely historical, with fewer distortions--though they're still there. Presumably the societal collapse of the Greeks would have made the cut-off much narrower: the loss of so many people necessitates a loss of poets. This perhaps by half or two-thirds (so 1-200 years).
How could the Sea Peoples be Mycenaean Greeks ? Consider that the ancient Egyptians gave the Sea People tribes many different names. If the Sea Peoples had really been just from Greece then the Egyptians would have had just one name for the Sea People invaders.
The crusaders called it Jerusalem instead of Constantinople because the old maps still called it Jerusalem before it was changed to Constantinople. Modern Jerusalem was in the Kingdom of the Ottoman Turks. The reason for the screw up is because most maps of the middle ages showed east to the west and west to the east.
As I had thought . . . about the sea peoples . . . they destroyed both the Hittites, Troy, the Levant, and Mycenae. They did it by mastering iron swords. This was not a fight between Mycenae and the Hittites; this was the transition from the Bronze age to the Iron age. The water well at the bottom of the staircase in Mycenae proves it. Both the Hittites and the Myceneans were on the run.
phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-bronze-age.html Luwian hieroglyphic inscription explains the end of the Bronze Age. A small band of people took out the Hittites, then Troy, then the Mycenaens. How could they have done it? By means of iron age swords.
Most iron swords post-date the collapse (about a generation or so), though they don't become the common metal till the 8th century BC. And also, they're not THAT strong. You need steel to out-do bronze, and this wasn't widely available till much later (this was because of the way early swords were made). Bear in mind the Hittites also had iron-smelting, and had access to such weapons too (as did Egyptians). So clearly that wasn't the main factor. And the Egyptians did kill fuck-tons of them, in spite of being the most conservatively equipped army in the region. Instead, I would submit that the collapse STARTED the iron age, not the other way round. This was by cutting off trade due to their success, and with it access to tin from Britain and Afghanistan. The more likely answer is that the Hittites and other powers were over-stretched: the Hittites had lost men to the Assyrians (battle of Nihriya), had suffered a drought (for which they built 13 dams), and were busy fighting the Cypriots and possibly the Kaska with what they had left. This is to say nothing of the continued menace of the Assyrians. The last part alone likely diverted massive numbers of soldiers. It certainly explains why the Neo-Hittite states all arose in areas along the former border between the Assyrian and Hittite Empires: they had most of the soldiers. We know they were overstretched, because the Hittite king wrote to the king of Ugart begging for his navy. The king of Ugart in turn begged the Cypriots (who were recently defeated by the Ugaritc/Hittite coalition) to spare his navy, since the Ugaritic navy was committed in Hittite territory. He clearly didn't have a large navy to begin with, since the result was that seven ships were able to get through and sack multiple cities in Ugaritic territory. Ships back then only had ~50 men tops; that's a force no larger than 350 men. Such a force, without any opposition, could easily wreak havoc on the Ugaritic people. And if what the authors say is true, they would have been well-equipped men, since they were essentially feudal retainers and noblemen. Their weapons being bronze or iron would be irrelevant here--the result would be the same: their training and speed would be another matter (bear in mind: most Ugaritic towns and cities were along the coast). Put bluntly: the enemies of the sea-people were unable to commit any more men, to handle the Sea Peoples. If it was indeed a coalition of west-Anatolian peoples (very likely, actually, just based on the names: the Danaans are explicitly mentioned in Egyptian accounts of the second Sea-People invasion--the one from the time the stele was made), then the numbers of men available would have allowed them to locally outnumber any of their enemies--except Egypt, whcih is why it alone beat the Sea Peoples (and they weren't over-stretched, because they weren't at war with anyone other than the Sea Peoples and their Libyan allies). It seems the 7-boat flottilla was part of a larger force--one the Hittites and Levantines had no recourse against. They likely were meant to scout ahead, and weaken the enemy as best as possible. When they discovered how overstretched the Urgaritic army really was, they would have then sent a larger force. This isn't too different to how the Arabs conquered the Levant and Iraq: raids meant for Arab tribes along the border also revealed the Romans and Sassanids were over-stetched/depleted. They accordingly took advantage of this. The same mechanism was how the Norse created the Danelaw in present-day England. Finally: no, Kupunti-Kurunta did not cause the fall of Mycene: the link you give explicitly notes that he attacked only Anatolia and the Levant (as well as Egypt). The thing to remember is that there were TWO sea-people invasinos: on c. 1205 BC, and the other, c. 1180 BC--the one Ramses III defeated. the lesser known, first one, was defeated by Merneptah, and included the Sherdan, Ekwesh, Shekelesh, Sherdan, and the Teresh; the Egyptians specifically state they were actually led by the Libu tribe, with some Meshwesh (two tribes of Berbers). It seems likely they entered an alliance to deal with Egypt. The second wave had the Meshwesh (who were berber--the Egyptians said so), the Sherdan (the only sea-people shared between the two; the Meshwesh are NOT sea-people: they're berbers documented in Egypt for centuries prior to this attack), the Peleset, and the Denyan (aka the people of the Troad), as well as Tjekker.
Tree ring research on Cornwall and Devon, show a 20-year period of exceptionally heavy rainfall, perhaps enough to cause crop failure, and bad weather enough to disrupt the tin trade c1179 BC. I have always felt, just my opinion, that the sea people may have been the Vikings and Wends from the Baltic region, fleeing drought, coming down Europe's rivers into the Black Sea, and then spreading into the Mediterranean and beyond. @@Albukhshi
@@89128 Yeah, it's not unreasonable to conclude that the two events are tied together--including the tying of extreme rain in Northern Europe to drought in the Near East. However, main issue with the idea that the sea peoples came from outside the Mediterranean is that none of the people mentioned by their victims---notably Egypt--mention people who were not from the Mediterranean--at least, we can't conclude that any of them were, based on the evidence. If anything, the list provided can be shown to be almost entirely Mediterranean: the Sherdan were definitely Sardinians, for example (how we know is a long story: it isn't just the name). And then the guy who formed the crux of my reply is another issue: he's Anatolian, and his followers were Anatolian and Aegean. You'd perhaps be on stronger grounds if you were to argue that these events precipitated some sort of Bronze age Mfecane--one driven by weather instead of the Zulu--and that they disrupted their neighbors, who then disrupted theirs, until it reached the Mediterranean. But this one is hard to demonstrate with the available evidence. As always, more research and excavation is necessary.
The Trojan War written by Homer is a work of fiction. Homer mentions that Ethiopians led by a King Memnon assisted the Greek forces against the Trojans. This is supposed to have happened around 1250 B.C. BUT ETHIOPIA DID NOT EXIST AT THIS TIME. The first kingdom that existed in what was to become Ethiopia was the D'MT KINGDOM which started around the 900's B.C. TOO LATE FOR THE GREEK TROJAN WAR. Now the ancient Greeks called the land immediately south of Egypt as Aethiopia which we know as Nubia ( Sudan. ) Homer describes the Ethiopian army that arrived at Troy as "too big to be counted. " Now, there is NO WAY that Pharaoh Ramses II would have allowed a foreign army " too big to be counted " to march north across his country to get to the Mediterranean Sea to sail north to Anatolia and the Trojan battlefield. Michael Wood made a mistake when he did NOT fly to Sudan or Ethiopia to talk to scholars to see if there were any ancient historical records relating to either of these respective countries taking part in a Trojan War or of a King Memnon. If he had, Michael Wood would have found no such records of the war or of this King Memnon exist. The Trojan War never happened.
Ethiopian also meant the 'land of scorched faces' though right in the classical times? It could refer to anywhere hotter than Greece, which is why Andromeda wasn't actually thought of as Ethopian in our sense of the word?
@@lw3646 No,. Ethiopia did not mean anywhere hotter than Greece. As I mentioned in a previous email, Ethiopia did not exist at the time of the so called Trojan War.
There is a third reason why I don't think the Trojan War ever happened. After ten years of war, the ancient Greeks would have left garbage behind such as broken spears, broken swords and other pieces of discarded military equipment. All this should have been dug up by archaeologists long ago.
Spearheads and swords were made out of bronze, which was a very valuable material back then, so the survivors and victors wouldn't have just left them on the field. The same goes for armor from the dead. Battlefields would've been picked clean.
If you go to the site of Babylon in modern day Iraq you will find almost nothing of what was once the biggest city in the world. You'll struggle to find even the stones that the city was built from. At the time of the Trojan War, Babylon was perhaps 20 times the size of Troy and it was continuously inhabited until medieval times. yet almost nothing remains.
Great series, I miss the days when a documentary was not only a series but didn't repeat itself every five minutes. I watched a recent documentary that was 45 minutes long and only contained 15 minutes of actual information, the other 30 minutes was spent repeating what they said multiple times.
Agreed. That's bad production, research and writing
But was it aliens?
No.
But was it aliens?
No.
But *was* it aliens?
No.
But *WAS* it aliens?
No.
Etc.
@@Gorboduc Daeniken and Norton rejoice 😂🤣😂
An absolute masterpiece of TV documentaries.
Yes, indeed 😊 - if only the BBC would commission Michael Wood to do a similar QUALITY follow up series with the more recent developments and archeological discoveries in this region and the new theories based on these - instead of the usual very rushed, superficial and often fooling-around programmes with lame jokes etc. that seems to be the very sad norm these days.
Michael Wood. Old school, old style and still somehow the best.
"In the archaeological record, love leaves no trace". What a poetic ending by Michael Wood to the greatest poetic saga in history and a brilliantly compelling documentary! 😘
Nj
@Conor Hanley of is. Okkl
L
I've always have been obsessed with Greek Mythology, but especially the Trojan War, Homer's Iliad made life for me as a child one filled with joy. The story of the Trojan War gave me my first taste of adventure and war, I was so important to be that I would carried a copy of Homer's Iliad everywhere and I would put it under my pillow, I could not sleep without my Iliad. As a child, Marvel's Heroes did not interest me, but the heroes in the Iliad, like Diomedes, Memnon, the sons of Priam (Hector, Deiphobus, Troilus, Helenus, Pammon, etc...), Antilochus, Nestor, Spardeon, etc... they were and still are so dear to me. I will read the Iliad, and the stories of Greek Mythology to my current baby boys when they grow old enough to understand and can be read to.
Have you tried Eric Shanower's _Age of Bronze_ ?
It's a beautifully drawn graphic novel series about the Trojan War and its epic heroes, meticulously researched, that I hope he will finish.
@@fuferito I have to thank you for commenting, funny thing is I lost this account but recently gained access to it, but its good to know that people showed interest in my post.
Growing up I think a lot of kids will have watched Jason and the Argonauts or Clash of the Titans and been captivated by them.
It stands the test of time: still an important documentary series by a master of the genre
I’m a seasoned history buff so this is far from the first time I’ve heard about the Bronze Age Collapse, but it’s usually presented in a dry, academic manner. The way Michael Wood describes it in this episode can only be described as haunting.
The channel. Fall of civilizations is quite good
It's been wonderful to watch this series at Christmas 2018. I remember seeing it when it was first shown but not appreciating it as I can now. In hindsight, in the light of modern documentary styles, it has a dream like quality, perhaps bardic, almost as though Wood's singing it in Homeric fashion. No cheapo dramatic enactments, just his person, voice and beautiful camera work to accompany the story. A truly great series!
Made when the BBC allowed time for truly epic stories to unfold week by week.
I hate the modern tendency for dramatization. Pure information is always better.
What a shame programmes like this aren't made anymore.
They are, and he still makes them. You just have to look around
@matthewgabbard6415 I don't know the BBC used to commission big budget history/natural history documentaries that were about 10 episodes long and packed with content. There's very little like that now, even the Brian Cox astronomy series have completely lost the plot.
The music in this series is so beautiful.
Well, it was loud.
"...in the archeological world, love leaves no trace." What a fitting way to end the series.
Mountainmanws: Sometimes it does. I have seen a fantastic documentary on the Hittites and there we find a love story of a Hittite King and his wife written on the small clay tablets. But it is usually true. History talks of kings and heroes not love.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking, so thank you for typing it for me... :-)
@@42kellys 6y,
@@nancymiteff9226 Hi, Nancy what do you mean by 6y?
@@42kellys oh no it was a 3 year old that typed that...sorry
I have said this many times: this series is the best documentary ever produced.
Yes could be. Though I would say Life on Earth 1979 is also a masterpiece.
Easily the best documentary about the Trojan War
Without a doubt sir.
This is one of my favorite documentary series ever. Michael Wood is one of the best presenters - I only wish this could've been made recently, as so much more has been discovered about Troy since the 80s
OMG that closing line is magnificent. Bravissimo!
I could not agree more. His artistry with language is as enthralling as the story itself.
This is a fascinating and moving documentary on mankind, the bronze age and, unintentionally, on the beginning of the computer age... I've enjoyed every minute! Thank you for posting!
didnt realise we had computers in 1985, fantastic indeed
How true.
Please don't forget to watch the equally brilliant BBC Horizon programme called "The 2000 Year Old Computer" - but be very careful or your jaw will drop to the floor 😂
@@adamhayes5315 Check out the brilliant BBC Horizon programme called "The 2000 Year Old Computer" - your jaw will drop to the floor 😂
@@Bjowolf2 thanks brother
Dr Elizabeth French was a charmer, I have to say. Wish we could have heard more from her.
“Love leaves no trace”. What a fantastic way to end this perfect documentary!
This is, I think, the third time I have watched this. A wonderful series with MIchael wood at his very best.
Only three?!? 😉
At least six times in my case 🤗 - this is the best such documentary ever by a long distance.
I often recommend it to people, who are interested in history and archeology, and they are astonished by its high standards and by its slow but informative pace
I really wish he & the BBC would do a thorough follow up in the "same" style about what has been discovered at Troy and elsewhere in that region since that time.
Taking his time to do it properly and in depth - instead of all these rushed and often very superficial modern documentaries with silly reenactments and foolish hosts with huge egoes, who think the story is more about them
I wish there were 15 more episodes of this. What a wonderful series! Thanks for uploading this for us all to see.
Michael wood at his best. The sound track very evocative-- the roll of drums enthralling. The appearance of sea people after the destruction of Troy is here given an explanation, so I think. Homer placed Helen in the story to give it a human twist as he possibly did not know the political workings between nations of the times before he lived. Hollywood always existed.
I doubt it, but it is a human story. Very moving.
Thanks so much for posting. This may be the best thing Michael Woods has ever done. He certainly was at the height of his powers. A real treat.
jimpriestus how old, or young, was he when he made this? This guy is a genius.
I have this on dvd ...my favorite detective story
I have it on VHS, from when it was first broadcast in the US on A&E.
Absolutely top notch. so much better than anything made today
Thanks for this amazing journey... The legend has come true in my heart and imagination.
Michael Wood's incredible documentaries inspired me to create my own channel.
Head on over for videos on Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Ancient History and much more.
New videos uploaded weekly.
Thats why I subbed your channel.
Go for it.
Thanks for uploading the series, Ouranos.
I liked the excellent summing-up words at the end of this episode.
Superb series! Thank you for this and to Prof Wood...
Michael Wood, huh? What a guy! An excellent researcher, writer, presenter and producer..where does Britain get people like him and John Romer and James Burke? I also think that it's wonderful that the digital generation has some archival footage of Michael Wood engaging in the arcane and antiquated art of developing an exposed celluloid film ..."exposed to what?" they ask...
superb analysis. excellent conclusion, brilliant series.
Started this series several weeks ago thanks to an old reddit post discusding this topic and just finished it today. I'm so glad I did, I had never heard from this documentary but its so well done, what a great ending quote.
Will be rewatching it in the future for sure.
the best episode of the series . I loved this since me and my older brother would watch these shows on PBS as kids.
Great to watch this again, after we know so much more about the Bronze Age collapse.
Fantastic, enjoyable and informative series....And a brilliant presenter.
The dramatic, melancholy opening music and words, “In this place there once stood a city…” just sweep you in. First-rate story telling!
Optimum opus. Vir bonus docendi peritus Michael Woods. Gratias magnas ei agimus, et etiam tibi, qui uisendam nobis dedisti hanc pellicularum seriem.
Sesquicullus!
i really love the intro to this amazing documentary! really epic
best documentary i’ve seen
I've loved every minute of this documentary, and the Michael Wood documentary on Alexander the Great. This specific documentary is older than me and I'm just now watching it for the first time. Tremendous.
Excellent Series! I saw it on PBS yrs ago...Mr Wood always did a Superlative job!🏆
BBC make wonderful historical documentaries and Michael Wood is a fantastic presenter.
Amazing documentary.
"Particularly in Turkey..you have gerbils." lolol
Is that you Richard Gere?
Bring your straws and lighters.
What a great documentary. Truly learned a lot. I still say that the bards (i.e. Tribal historians) would have learned the stories verbatim. The Oral Tradition, before the printing press was invented, was characterized by the ability to memorize huge bodies of poetry or prose, for the express purpose of handing down history unscathed.
I saw this series in 1985. Recently, I've rediscovered it and rewatched it on RUclips. Back then and now I find it hard to believe that Homer or any bard or storyteller would compose and pass on a saga based on a war over a broken down shantytown. I realize that stories become epics as, over time, they are retold and embellished, but wouldn't other grand cities which still had great wealth and towering walls be more likely candidates as the subject of the story? Why pick a miserable, poor excuse for a city as the inspiration for a mesmerizing tale of love, war, sacrifice, and tragedy? I choose to believe Troy VI was the Troy of the "Iliad", and not a plot of squatters, because that's what makes sense.
I love this documentary and the great Professor Michael Wood. Also In the Footsteps of Alexander was awesome also (Bettany Hughes rated it in the top 50 documentaries) but it was taken off and can be seen on Wood's Maya Vision. I wanted to address the ten year thing., I have read practically every book on the subject (try Barry Strauss's or Eric Cline's) and the 10 years is NOT meant to be taken literally. There are two reasons that they give #1 they (Homer) means over a ten year period they fought off and on AND #2 the way time periods are described in ancient Greek. Just mlike you cannot absolutely say that there was and Ajax with the big huge shield as the Professor says in Episode #3. Homer is not meant to be taken strictly literally. But there is no doubt there was a Trojan War and I recommend reading some of the great books on the subject. I love reading about ancient history. Love everything on the Hittites (loved the wonderful old English professor's in this doc Ken Kitchen especially) and recommend the Hittite doc narrated by Jeremy Irons if Smithsonian hasn't taken it off again. Oh and the fabulous flute music by Terry Oldfield!!!!!!!
Can't find the last episode " footsteps of alexander" will keep hunting. These documentaries are gems!
bettany what a babe
10 year sieges are not unheard of for late bronze age-early iron age warfare. It's more like early attempts at blockade. Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre lasted 13 years. Tyre was able to resupply by Siege. The Babylonians couldn't be dislodged, but couldn't take the city. And we hear of sieges lasting 3-5 years all the time.
Also, search for "Mycenaean tower shield." Some scholars say that these were only used in the 16th-14th century bc, but this era isn't documented like the classical era. Judgments like this are based entirely on archeological finds and art, and where those finds get placed chronologically. We can't say that tower shields were still popular in 1350bc, but were not used at all anymore by 1250bc. How would Homer know of them?
Ya I really think it would be almost impossible to tell the difference in an earthquake or the destruction after a long war. I'm like him I started this series thinking the Trojan War was mostly myth but now at the end I think it's mostly true. The Trojan War really happened wow ! :-)
Michael Wood is an excellent presentor and historian. If you like this then watch his series about the Dark Age Kings of Britain. I think it's called In Search of The Dark Ages.
his best ever work, amongst a litany of great works.
Good that he was able to come off the fence at the end and tell us what he thought happened. It's all a bit flimsy though, but who knows.
loved this.... thx for posting
great stuff ALL his stuff is great stuff and as he said 'Yes Those Jeans Were Too Tight'
A awesome history and very well researched and told. Was it really 35 years ago this was first broadcast? I'm getting old
You are not the only one! It seems like just yesterday to me.
Brilliant explained!!!
great to watch, thanks for uploading.
You could probably spend your entire life researching and pondering this question and still be unable to decide whether or not this actually happened.
Thanks for uploading.
The primary lesson I got out of the Trojan Wars was that everyone lost - Trojans,Greeks,Hittites,Egyptians.It speaks to me of the futility of war.
This is not fun to watch when it's a homework assignment but I would have enjoyed it
Very nicely done :)
He likes to be seen driving around in his Fiat 131 Mirafiori. Music is probably made with Fairlight CMI workstation which is another end of the 70s, beginning of 80s icon, very expensive early digital music workstationl.
Good points well made :-)
An extraordinary documentary in its time more than 30 yrs. ago but now quite outdated. An addendum of what has been learned since then would be difficult because there is just too much new information.
3,000 years from now, someone will be trying to prove that Harry Potter was an actual wizard.
Homer spins a ripping yarn !!!
Equally historians in 3000 years might be looking for evidence WWII happened, all they might have to go on is the song White Cliffs of Dover, some mass graves in Normandy and a sunken battleship near Malta. It would be almost impossible to work out what happened just from that.
I think some historians now look at climatic changes as the reason behind the end of the bronze age?
Part of me thinks there could be something really to this. That something like the Illaid would be the result of an earlier war.
The other part of me thinks this is a case of special pleading, that his in Search of the Dark Ages was much more rigorous about its standard of evidence.
Also check out the video Great Battles Was there a Trojan War through Penn Museum. The lecture by Brian Rose eminent historian and archaeologist and one of the excavators at Troy for the last 25 years is awesome!!!! He started with the late Manfred Korfmann plus he's very funny!! These lectures through Penn are great. Also check out the lectures on Bronze Age Greece by Andrea Berlin. Enjoy! I devour everything I can find on Crete, The Minoans, Troy, Alexander vs Darius, Bronze Age all of it! I never just read one book or watch one video. Read all and then decide! Love English history also!!
Documentary makers need to study this one in school
"In the archaeological record, love leaves no trace."
I beg to differ, Mr Wood. What about the Taj Mahal? Perhaps this was not a story of love after all, but of wrongdoing?
So episode 6 summary, if the Greeks did win an actual trojan war then their triumpth didn't last long and their bronze age kingdoms vanished.
Did bronze age people have siege equipment do we know?
General despair in the eastern meditereanian.
+Uno G
evidently things haven't changed in 3,200 years...
Pure deid brill this.
Has anyone seen the Michael Wood interview update to the series? It used to be on yt but can't find it anymore.
ruclips.net/video/g7vr3sg74lA/видео.htmlfeature=shared
Yes it's pretty interesting. He says he wanted to try and make the viewer feel part of the mystery and not just passively receiving a lecture.
even tho the uploader artificially inflates the number of likes on these uploads (yep!) i'm loving that there's no ridiculous channel cross-branding and no uploader-imposed endless string of ads with these clear, high-quality uploads
So the independence of the city states ultimately led to their downfall. Unable to unite against a common enemy, one by one the cities of the "Palace Civilisation" were overcome and destroyed. Was Troy destroyed by this same wave of invaders from the north, the so-called "Sea People" or was the shanty town of Troy VIIa the victim of this invasion, built on the ruins of the great city destroyed by the Mycenaean Achaeans, who themselves returned home victorious only to be destroyed shortly afterwards ? Are the tragic stories of Agamemnon and other kings who died after returning home from Troy based on the story of the invasion and destruction of the Mycenaean civilization ? Or were terrible droughts the cause of the downfall of the Mycenaean and Hittite civilizations, the Sea Peoples just volatile refugees from these areas?
Maybe droughts in large areas and flooding in others by heavy rainfall caused people to rise against their former rulers, destroy their great cities, then take to the sea looking for new homes ?
Finally, who can possibly differentiate the destruction of a city by earthquake or by military action ? The results look the same, there are destroyed buildings and burning. The fact is that one cannot determine one from the other. Was it even possible that an earthquake toppled some of the defensive walls of Troy during the siege, allowing the Greeks into the city to burn and destroy ? I personally believe that Troy VI was Homer's Troy, the city destroyed by the Achaeans, and Troy VIIa was the shanty town built on its ruins, but that is just my opinion. I am at least in good company with Michael Wood. 😜
You can see some serious scholars weighing in during this documentary. Still impressive 50 years later
I recognize the voice but don't recognize that young man in the video😄
Something pivotal happened in the Mediterranean world around 1230-1299 BC. I'm inclined to believe that it was the Volcanic eruption of Sestos, which directly decimated the Minoan and Hittite civilizations. I think that what archeologists need to do is take some sea bed cores and track the ash/eruption from Sestos as it spread across the Mediterranean area..
if it was under seige for ten years how did troy feed itself and where was its water supply. no city could survive without these
Wouldn't the Egyptians have recognized Mycenaens if they were a substantial part of the Sea Peoples? A few here and there might go unnoticed as part of the hordes, but any large number must have been familiar to the Egyptians. Surely the Egyptians would have named them as such.
Interesting point. Here's my view. Looking back, we are "lumpers" - we apply the label "Mycenaens" (or "Achaeans") to a large number of different but related states and polities. The Egyptians were "splitters" and make fine distinctions (Sherden, Sheklesh, Lukka, Tursha, Akawasha, Peleset, Tjeker, Denen, Weshesh) some of which would fall under our broad category. Perhaps it's a little like "Europeans" versus "French", "Germans", "Italians" etc.
Maybe it is both, Greece laid siege to Troy, at some point an earthquake hit which gave them access to sack and destroy the city. Would explain Poseidon being the God of Earthquakes and Horses.
It would also be more plausible if the siege really did last 10 years. Could a city back then have enough food though to last 10 years? I know Leningrad was under siege for years.
Troy VI or Troy VIIa? How about both? Mycenae lay siege to Troy for whatever reason...honor or economics...and while laying siege, an earthquake hit, breaching the walls and allowing the Mycenaeans to take the city.
Check out Iman Wilkins work.
The Sea Peoples. Aside from decline in the cultures they overran due to climate change,earthquakes etc; what edge could they possibly have had that would have allowed them to over-run those cultures?
Were the Sea Peoples possibly the first to employ iron weapons and tech?
He does not even mention that the whole story of the Illiad surrounds the sacking of a city and the capture of Briesis by Achilles and the argument which results when Agammenon takes her .....
True. The broader context of The Illiad and The Odyssey (which, for examples, actually describes a Sea Peoples style attack on Egypt) supports quite strongly the idea that the poems are echoes of a lived reality. Michael Wood had a lot of territory to cover!
The Illaid doesn't cover that part though.
If Paris and Helen existed so did Hector and achilles their names are just as prominent and important has King Priam and Agamemnon they would essentially be no point in believing in the story if you didn't believe in that but that's the problem with facts that are that old it's more about belief than it is any evidence you're ever going to find I imagine that's why Homer tried to record all of it 500 years after the fact but history 500 years old to us isn't that clouded so I imagine in his time he was that much closer to when it happened and we were so I would trust his account more after all it is the only one we really have
I think one could actually tell earthquake from annihilation.
An earthquake would leave a pattern of destruction all in the direction of the shockwave. To take a city, or citadel by force a scheme of damage would be left as the assault took on, first, the defences then the seat of command then the resulting plunder. Conquered Berlin from 1945 did not look like it had been hit by an earthquake whereas as Fukushima 2011 did.
Where Troy Once Stood Cambridge UK not Greece... great read if you can find a copy Imam Wilkens
Never believed in the Trojan war. I do think it’s a great story, exaggerated maybe. The Greek city states did fight a lot.
Please don't forget to watch this fascinating 2004 interview with Michael Wood about the making of this brilliant series and its exciting content.
ruclips.net/video/g7vr3sg74lA/видео.html
Good series, but the main reason I am skeptical about an earthquake is that it sounds more dramatic than simply sneaking in. The Biblical battle of Jericho emphasized divine intervention bringing the walls down (probably via an earthquake) while skeptics think Israelites just sneaked in
Teankun I agree that an earthquake explanation is a bit far fetched. The Trojan horse certainly feels like it could just be a metaphor for some sort of sneak in raid. The only problem is why would it have taken the Greeks ten years to find a way in? If they did sneak in (which I still think is likely) then the length of the Trojan war is almost certainly an exaggeration. Then again, Homer was a poet at the end of the day, so it's probable he did exaggerate stuff.
of course they snuck in--even Michael Wood suggests it: he is implying that the earthquake happened, and this created a gap that the soldiers snuck through at night. The rest, as they say, was history: the place was sacked, the rest of the walls cast down. This would explain why it took so long: without the earthquake, there was no way in (those were the days before battering rams and siege towers). Also, it may not even have been a siege: there is only one camp described--just west of the cit; Homer doesn't suggest siege lines--something even people back then had (e.g. Siege of Megiddo). If this is so, it's possible they simply camped outside, and used it as a base of operations to raid and pillage; we certainly see in the Iliad mention of Thracians and "Aethiopians" at war with the Achaeans.
So the two ideas are not mutually exclusive: they may even compliment each other.
And Poseidon was the god of earthquakes and the sea, and his animal was the horse. It may well be that the horse was either offered in thanks, or in prayer. Either way, the use of a horse here is very specific: why not a bull, or a man, or some other creature? why specifically a horse--an animal associated with earthquakes?
@@Albukhshi That makes no sense. If there had been an earthquake, the Trojans would have immediately done a survey of the city to establish the walls were still unbreachable, and repair/defend them. If they had been killed by the earthquake and could not do this, the Achaians would not have needed to sneak in.
@@alitanicholas9579
Who said those were the only two options? Consider:
Depending on how chaotic the situation is, this may not happen. What if the Government/command went down? No coherent plan = no survey.
Even if they did, if enough soldiers had been killed (or enough breeches affected, or both), there wouldn't necessarily be enough men to adequately guard the damaged section. So, the Achaeans would still have to sneak in: they'd just be sneaking into an unguarded section (or a poorly-guarded one).
Maybe this happened while the Greeks were off in a raid or something and were not expected to return. Then, when the Greeks come back, they'd find a totally unprepared people, focusing on rescue and salvage.
Or, maybe they didn't sneak in: they realized the enemy was bad off, and simply rushed one of the places, and with the losses, they'd be unable to defend themselves.
Of course, this is all hypothetical: we don't even know if this was true for sure. But it is a possibility raised by the elements of the story. For all we know, there was no Earthquake, no siege, not batteekh--to use the phrase back home.
Micheal's coats are the shit
Ultimately this whole search says less about the so-called heroic age of Greece and a great deal about us. For 30 centuries or more it didn't matter to anyone whether the Trojan war was a historical fact. The very question would have been beyond irrelevant. It's only in the last century+30 or so years that it became almost psychotically important 😂 We use the word, myth, to mean falsehood. Perhaps we've simply lost the mental faculty to understand their meaning. Lovely series though!
Excellent documentary. However I am left with many questions. Because the Berlin Wall was real does that mean James Bond existed? And that is the problem, Its entirely possible that the entire story was actually recalling events from a different culture altogether with elements overlaid with local details provided by a different story to make the telling more palatable for a local audience. It is also possible that many of the embellishments came from previous stories and amalgamated. What we may have evidence for is a very good story teller who was able to draw in a raft of elements to make good tale. Like all good tales some elements are made up to make the tale better.
The break down of the story could have happened anywhere early cities developed, A fortified city on a hill by water, there was a insult of some form, call to arms, extended siege, heroic deeds by larger than life heroes, a trick or surprising event that ended it all. It would be fascinating to see if any other cultures have any stories like Troy if they do it would make sense to check them out. I would recommend any of the cultures that the ancient world that traded with each other could offer clues to is origins. Because of its oral roots Its also possible the story was one from an even earlier culture assigned to Greece.
The other reason I am sceptical is that several other stories from antiquity have also proven to be problematic. The hanging gardens of Babylon are not in Babylon however a neighbouring city did have astounding gardens. Now the name of the city with gardens has been lost. However when people were recounting the seven wonders of name gave the hanging gardens to the city next door, Babylon. Its in the same general location. So we have the hanging gardens credit to Babylon when in fact they had none. In other words they used the name of the place they knew.
Also there is no evidence in for the Exodus story not even a single shard of pottery. Its likely that Troy was transposed into the story from another story. I doubt very much Troy is actually where it is stated now. Cities being laid siege too preparation and aftermath happened all over the ancient world and not unqiue to the supposed Troy mentioned in this doco. People want this place to be Troy so they see evidence to support that idea..
The other issues is we don't have a full copy of the original. I think its a fantastic Story and nothing else. I doubt strongly there was an age of heroes. However until more is found to support the theory we should enjoy it for what it is. A great classic tale of daring do.
Babylon referred to both the city and the region. Herodotus may simply have not been informed of the name of (the very cursed) city where it was--Ninua (aka Nineveh). Or he may well have assumed people knew. We know it was there, because king Sennacherib describes building a massive and super-sexy garden, watered by Archimedes screws (which are named in the Assyrian dialect after a breed of palm tree). There was a documentary about this IIRC on Nat-Geo.
If Exodus happened, it probably happened the way Manetho described it (he was an Egyptian priest). Josephus specifically wrote against the account, because it was (to him, anyway), pretty insulting. In it, Manetho writes of a prince who rebelled against Amenhotep III, rejected the gods of Egypt, and led a bad of desperadoes and "Asiatics" out of Egypt. So you're probably looking in the wrong place.
"It would be fascinating to see if any other cultures have any stories like Troy if they do it would make sense to check them out. I would recommend any of the cultures that the ancient world that traded with each other could offer clues to is origins"
Oh, you mean like Harb al-basus? or what oral tradition says about Zenobia? (So Arab culture)
Then again, the Arabs didn't have a dark age on the same scale as the Greeks (though the time between the war and the first written accounts is IIRC 300 and 600 years after the facts, respectively). So we can see how time in an illiterate society can affect the stories--since we don't have quite as strong a distortion as we see among the Greeks.
So here goes:
there were two tribes: Bakr and Taghlib. Bakr owned much land in the Hijaz and Tihamah, of prime importance. Taghlib was expanding toward it. But they remained at peace, till a woman (basus), parked her camel improperly. The camel wondered off into Bakr territory, whereupon Kulayb Wa'il--its chief--saw it and shot it dead. Basus was outraged, and demanded her honor be satistied. So Jassas b. Murrah went and gutted Kulayb like a fish.
Kulayb's brother then demanded diyya (wirgelt), and when this was refused, he killed Jassas and two other men.
The result was 40 years war, which ended when that brother (aka az-zeir salim), killed a hostage from a tribe which was otherwise neutral. The father--who was a chief of that tribe--then swore he'd kill every male of Bakr, until the Earth spoke to him. only a few survived--and they because they found out where the guy was traveling, hid a man in a gulley, and had him speak to the fellow--thus fulfilling his oath. Zeir Salim spent the rest of his days an outcast, tended only by his daughter. Bakr had to move to Najd.
This is surprisingly accurate-sounding: it all has the ring of truth. You can see the real reason for the war clear as day: Taghlib wanted Bakr's water supply; the camel was a pretext. And Arabs even today are known to harbor decades-old grudges...As you can see, religion really isn't the issue there: everyone in this story was a pagan.
Another example of a story o this type, involves Zenobia and Amr b. Uday (both real people):
Zenobia apparently lost either her father or husband (Udhayna) to a man named Judhayma al-abrash (that second part means "Vitiglio-stricken"; the sh was so that he wouldn't catch that--the correct form is al-abraS). So she lured him to tadmur (aka Palmyra), and killed him, by slitting his wrist over a Tist (a type of bowl). She was warned by the priest not to spill blood out of the Tist, but some did drip out. This caused the curse of the gods to fall on her, and so allowed the rest of the story to unfold (again, remember: them were pagan times for Arabs). Yes, this was a ritual sacrifice, coating over a revenge-killing...creepy.
Judhayma's right-hand man was mournful, and vowed revenge. He helped Judhayma's nephew become king of the Tanukhids (Judhayma's tribe), and his native Lakhm tribe. This created the Lakhmid kingdom. He then asked him if he could "slander" the king, to get back at Zenobia. Amr didn't really care--he had a lot on his plate as it was. So the man had his servant scourge him, and he cut off his own nose. He then went to Tadmur in rags, and said the new king had punished him for letting Judhayma be abducted and ritually sacrified (Arabs apparently were at this as late as the 4th century, when we hear of a sacrifice on a "rival Kaaba" to al-ilah--though here the purpose was to defile the place, and destroy its pretended "7rurm" status.
Zenobia took pity, and let him in her confidence. With this, he got the plans to the city, gave it to Amr, and Amr was able to infiltrate the city and sack it. Zenobia sucked on a poison ring just as Amr was about to cut her down, and so died.
Now, obviously this is a load of crap: Zenobia was defeated by Aurelian, and did not commit suicide, and Amr, while a contemporary of hers, didn't have anything to do with her defeat: he did unify the two tribes after Judhayma's death (either in an ambush or battle), but his efforts were directed toward the Persian Gulf and eastern Syrian desert. However, this shouldn't be surprising: this all happened in the 3rd century, and none of this was written down by Arabs until the 9th century.
So it looks like the cut-off for accurate history is around 400 years or so--since the stories prior to the 4th century have been very distorted (the Zenobia one is one of the tamer stories); events from the 4th century onward seem to be largely historical, with fewer distortions--though they're still there.
Presumably the societal collapse of the Greeks would have made the cut-off much narrower: the loss of so many people necessitates a loss of poets. This perhaps by half or two-thirds (so 1-200 years).
How could the Sea Peoples be Mycenaean Greeks ? Consider that the ancient Egyptians gave the Sea People tribes many different names. If the Sea Peoples had really been just from Greece then the Egyptians would have had just one name for the Sea People invaders.
I think the idea is that some of them were Mycenaeans.
The crusaders called it Jerusalem instead of Constantinople because the old maps still called it Jerusalem before it was changed to Constantinople. Modern Jerusalem was in the Kingdom of the Ottoman Turks. The reason for the screw up is because most maps of the middle ages showed east to the west and west to the east.
Beautifull but wrong…..
@ANARCHOREPUBLICAN: I have watched HELEN OF TROY narrated by Bethany Hughes. She has not answered any of my questions that I have posted here.
James Aiello!! !
As I had thought . . . about the sea peoples . . . they destroyed both the Hittites, Troy, the Levant, and Mycenae. They did it by mastering iron swords.
This was not a fight between Mycenae and the Hittites; this was the transition from the Bronze age to the Iron age.
The water well at the bottom of the staircase in Mycenae proves it. Both the Hittites and the Myceneans were on the run.
phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-bronze-age.html
Luwian hieroglyphic inscription explains the end of the Bronze Age. A small band of people took out the Hittites, then Troy, then the Mycenaens. How could they have done it? By means of iron age swords.
Most iron swords post-date the collapse (about a generation or so), though they don't become the common metal till the 8th century BC. And also, they're not THAT strong. You need steel to out-do bronze, and this wasn't widely available till much later (this was because of the way early swords were made). Bear in mind the Hittites also had iron-smelting, and had access to such weapons too (as did Egyptians). So clearly that wasn't the main factor. And the Egyptians did kill fuck-tons of them, in spite of being the most conservatively equipped army in the region.
Instead, I would submit that the collapse STARTED the iron age, not the other way round. This was by cutting off trade due to their success, and with it access to tin from Britain and Afghanistan.
The more likely answer is that the Hittites and other powers were over-stretched: the Hittites had lost men to the Assyrians (battle of Nihriya), had suffered a drought (for which they built 13 dams), and were busy fighting the Cypriots and possibly the Kaska with what they had left. This is to say nothing of the continued menace of the Assyrians. The last part alone likely diverted massive numbers of soldiers. It certainly explains why the Neo-Hittite states all arose in areas along the former border between the Assyrian and Hittite Empires: they had most of the soldiers.
We know they were overstretched, because the Hittite king wrote to the king of Ugart begging for his navy. The king of Ugart in turn begged the Cypriots (who were recently defeated by the Ugaritc/Hittite coalition) to spare his navy, since the Ugaritic navy was committed in Hittite territory. He clearly didn't have a large navy to begin with, since the result was that seven ships were able to get through and sack multiple cities in Ugaritic territory. Ships back then only had ~50 men tops; that's a force no larger than 350 men. Such a force, without any opposition, could easily wreak havoc on the Ugaritic people. And if what the authors say is true, they would have been well-equipped men, since they were essentially feudal retainers and noblemen. Their weapons being bronze or iron would be irrelevant here--the result would be the same: their training and speed would be another matter (bear in mind: most Ugaritic towns and cities were along the coast).
Put bluntly: the enemies of the sea-people were unable to commit any more men, to handle the Sea Peoples. If it was indeed a coalition of west-Anatolian peoples (very likely, actually, just based on the names: the Danaans are explicitly mentioned in Egyptian accounts of the second Sea-People invasion--the one from the time the stele was made), then the numbers of men available would have allowed them to locally outnumber any of their enemies--except Egypt, whcih is why it alone beat the Sea Peoples (and they weren't over-stretched, because they weren't at war with anyone other than the Sea Peoples and their Libyan allies). It seems the 7-boat flottilla was part of a larger force--one the Hittites and Levantines had no recourse against. They likely were meant to scout ahead, and weaken the enemy as best as possible. When they discovered how overstretched the Urgaritic army really was, they would have then sent a larger force.
This isn't too different to how the Arabs conquered the Levant and Iraq: raids meant for Arab tribes along the border also revealed the Romans and Sassanids were over-stetched/depleted. They accordingly took advantage of this. The same mechanism was how the Norse created the Danelaw in present-day England.
Finally: no, Kupunti-Kurunta did not cause the fall of Mycene: the link you give explicitly notes that he attacked only Anatolia and the Levant (as well as Egypt). The thing to remember is that there were TWO sea-people invasinos: on c. 1205 BC, and the other, c. 1180 BC--the one Ramses III defeated. the lesser known, first one, was defeated by Merneptah, and included the Sherdan, Ekwesh, Shekelesh, Sherdan, and the Teresh; the Egyptians specifically state they were actually led by the Libu tribe, with some Meshwesh (two tribes of Berbers). It seems likely they entered an alliance to deal with Egypt.
The second wave had the Meshwesh (who were berber--the Egyptians said so), the Sherdan (the only sea-people shared between the two; the Meshwesh are NOT sea-people: they're berbers documented in Egypt for centuries prior to this attack), the Peleset, and the Denyan (aka the people of the Troad), as well as Tjekker.
Tree ring research on Cornwall and Devon, show a 20-year period of exceptionally heavy rainfall, perhaps enough to cause crop failure, and bad weather enough to disrupt the tin trade c1179 BC. I have always felt, just my opinion, that the sea people may have been the Vikings and Wends from the Baltic region, fleeing drought, coming down Europe's rivers into the Black Sea, and then spreading into the Mediterranean and beyond. @@Albukhshi
@@89128
Yeah, it's not unreasonable to conclude that the two events are tied together--including the tying of extreme rain in Northern Europe to drought in the Near East.
However, main issue with the idea that the sea peoples came from outside the Mediterranean is that none of the people mentioned by their victims---notably Egypt--mention people who were not from the Mediterranean--at least, we can't conclude that any of them were, based on the evidence. If anything, the list provided can be shown to be almost entirely Mediterranean: the Sherdan were definitely Sardinians, for example (how we know is a long story: it isn't just the name). And then the guy who formed the crux of my reply is another issue: he's Anatolian, and his followers were Anatolian and Aegean.
You'd perhaps be on stronger grounds if you were to argue that these events precipitated some sort of Bronze age Mfecane--one driven by weather instead of the Zulu--and that they disrupted their neighbors, who then disrupted theirs, until it reached the Mediterranean.
But this one is hard to demonstrate with the available evidence. As always, more research and excavation is necessary.
The Trojan War written by Homer is a work of fiction. Homer mentions that Ethiopians led by a King Memnon assisted the Greek forces against the Trojans. This is supposed to have happened around 1250 B.C.
BUT ETHIOPIA DID NOT EXIST AT THIS TIME. The first kingdom that existed in what was to become Ethiopia was the D'MT KINGDOM which started around the 900's B.C. TOO LATE FOR THE GREEK TROJAN WAR.
Now the ancient Greeks called the land immediately south of Egypt as Aethiopia which we know as Nubia ( Sudan. ) Homer describes the Ethiopian army that arrived at Troy as "too big to be counted. " Now, there is NO WAY that Pharaoh Ramses II would have allowed a foreign army " too big to be counted " to march north across his country to get to the Mediterranean Sea to sail north to Anatolia and the Trojan battlefield.
Michael Wood made a mistake when he did NOT fly to Sudan or Ethiopia to talk to scholars to see if there were any ancient historical records relating to either of these respective countries taking part in a Trojan War or of a King Memnon. If he had, Michael Wood would have found no such records of the war or of this King Memnon exist. The Trojan War never happened.
Ethiopian also meant the 'land of scorched faces' though right in the classical times? It could refer to anywhere hotter than Greece, which is why Andromeda wasn't actually thought of as Ethopian in our sense of the word?
@@lw3646 No,. Ethiopia did not mean anywhere hotter than Greece. As I mentioned in a previous email, Ethiopia did not exist at the time of the so called Trojan War.
@@abdouahmed3470en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopia?wprov=sfla1
There is a third reason why I don't think the Trojan War ever happened. After ten years of war, the ancient Greeks would have left garbage behind such as broken spears, broken swords and other pieces of discarded military equipment. All this should have been dug up by archaeologists long ago.
Spearheads and swords were made out of bronze, which was a very valuable material back then, so the survivors and victors wouldn't have just left them on the field. The same goes for armor from the dead. Battlefields would've been picked clean.
If you go to the site of Babylon in modern day Iraq you will find almost nothing of what was once the biggest city in the world. You'll struggle to find even the stones that the city was built from. At the time of the Trojan War, Babylon was perhaps 20 times the size of Troy and it was continuously inhabited until medieval times. yet almost nothing remains.
TheSmithDorian But no one questions that Babylon existed and had a very long history.
The Greek camp now would be under several metres of silt Troy around 1250 BC. Was located on a bay.
You might find some post holes if you are lucky but I would expect that would be all.