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The World of Demons
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
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You're really selling me this Zen...demons and boredom! Cheers brother
555ppo908⁷only 8o
I experienced fear attacks during zazen several times in a sesshin. I remember one time it started exactly at the sound of the third bell at the beginning of a sitting period. It felt like looking a huge ugly beast right in front of me in the mouth. However I was able to continue sitting. My teacher reacted in a relaxed way when I told her about this. That helped. I became more familiar with this fear and even started welcoming it. Than I stopped completely. I think in my case it was related to giving up control on a deeper level.
That kind of reaction can really help.
My first awakening (without drugs and 10 years after drugs) proceeded a panic/depersonalization (not simple stupid fear, but MASSIVE fear all encompassing terror as Brad described) attack while in zazen. I FINALLY didn't distract myself from it, and I completely surrendered to it (more like a, "FUCK IT go ahead and send me to hell!" kind of thing because I was so sick of doing everything to stay away from "THIS HORROR"). It completely freed me and changed my life. Colors brighter, opportunity just flooding in, NO FEAR et al. I now travel the world and create stuff (and practice zazen). You have to go through it, right through the middle (nothing ever happened).
its the all devouring fire one must go through, as the christian mystics also talk about...
Hey Brad. I’m so thankful for your videos, as I often listen to them while watching my infant. And thank you for sharing your intense negative experience. The public often does not get to see (or hear) that difficult experiences are as much a part of spiritual development as positive ones. And tour advise to take it slow in one spiritual development is so tremendously spot on. There are many small lessons to be learned that can help us as we encounter challenging ontological problems. Alas, there are not many teachers in the Western traditions that are skilled in helping people through the serious ontological spiritual dilemmas that can arise, and transpersonal psychotherapy is super underdeveloped to provide help. Your students are lucky to have such a wise teacher.
'When you find the courage to face your greatest fear, you find the courage to face anything.' Anon.
career criminals is the best intro yet by far lol
Thanks!
I just wanted you to know that I completely understood your 1976 aside from the previous video, though I wish now that I had commented as such. For what it's worth, your videos are invaluable, and I hope you're able to continue making them for a long time to come. Thank you!
Edit: I love the daily Ziggy update! It's like an after-credit scene in a Marvel movie.
It's fine.
Wow this one is remarkably synchronistic for me today.
I had my first acknowledged spiritual experience when I was 19. I was totally unprepared for it. I took some LSD with a friend and experienced what I've come to understand as an "enlightenment" experience. (I have watched your videos about drugs, don't worry.) However, I had no training, no grounds for understanding. I was lost, confused, scared, and it caused me to hide from myself for years afterwards. It's only been through study and practice that I've begun to understand what that experience was and what it meant for me. I don't recommend that route. I recently read a commentary by Carl Jung on a Taoist text, "the secret of the golden flower". In it he discusses what you've talked about here. He discusses our internal experience as compared to our external experience and comments that one is not less real than the other and how our experience manifests internally is how we must face it. He discusses the dangers of the experiences. Without the grounding of myth and practice for us to understand these experiences we have now way to interpret the symbols present in our dreams and insights, for us to process the information. This can lead to serious delusion and has even been the grounds for the development of cults. At one point I became suicidal. What you described fit me quite well. A lifetime of nightmares, mixed in with some strange trips and no guide took me in a strange direction. However, It's been through the study and practices of Buddhism that I've been able to reconcile my experiences and begin to apply them to my day to day life. This is what Jung presents, not a dismissal of the myth, but an embracing of it. Not towards delusion, but towards a true understanding of the self. I have found the benefit of the Buddhist method unique. That is, the middle path. Whereas many myths deal with this process through violence, good conquering evil, Buddhism doesn't do that, more an acceptance of all parts of the self, no need for violence, no need for conquering. This saved my life. I recommend the Jung commentary. Its and interesting perspective on the eastern myths in general and a perspective on the difficulties we have integrating it into our culture.
"it caused me to hide from myself for years"
How did you manage to divide your self in two? The self hidden from...and the self who is hiding?
I think a problem I have with these kinds of experiences is not treating them like this big milestone. It’s just scenery, but I want to make them something more permanent. I read somewhere that that’s a bad idea, clinging to events. Don’t know where...
Yeah...Don't cling!
I had this experience recently. I agree that it is radically different than a panic attack. When I was writing about it, I likened it to "if a dark night of the soul had a baby with utter horror." I came out the other end with a different understanding of things though. I kind of felt like it was a trial by fire.
The first time I attended a retreat it was a 10 day vipassana retreat and I had to leave on the third day because i thought i was going crazy, since then I've done two 5 day and one 3 day sesshins and it was hard but no freakout happened
Its necessary to engage physical exercise, like running...as a counterbalance to all that silent sitting.
I lift weights...squats, deadlifts and curls for that purpose.
I think people de-emphasize the great use of healthy distraction ✌️
Sounds exactly like shadow work Jung speaks of too
Night terrors are not uncommon experiences with young people. I had some back when I was a Christian around 17 years old. A Christian friend of mine also had them at around 20. Of course we interpreted them as demonic attacks, caused by our recent conversion. Medically they are a sleeping disorder associated with lack of sleep, stress, anxiety, depression; all of which are not uncommon with university students undergoing some spiritual change and struggling with various inner and outer conflicts.
"Of course we interpreted them as demonic attacks"
What would Christianity be...without demons?
42 😜 accurate thank you nameste 🙏💜🌟🌠✨ I had a nightmare once an entity was following me behind the apartment where I lived then I turned and faced it with a sword first I hacked off one arm then the other it kept coming when I realized it had to be it's head so I loped the head off that did it woke up freaked out but knew I had it handled and calmed down went back to sleep never had a nightmare again hopefully I always stay safe in dreams. I feel mindfully letting go of and releasing negative emotions and fears would be the best way to prevent a major freak out. I just finished reading David R. Hawkins book "Letting Go the pathway of surrender " it was extremely helpful
Why is it impossible to control what you will dream of at night?
Don't be afraid about this name like demons or devils you know ..
They're just souls with bad Karma , " bad mind energy" ( fear , anger , jealousy.......) you know what I mean...
It s so simple
Except Buddha didn't want a 'soul'.
"Hello career criminals" ^^ I'm stealing that one lol ^^
fascinating, thank you!
Would you consider these shadowy, “demon-like” forces or patterns within oneself akin to the jungian shadow or other instinctual patterns?
I would love to see that "Science!" meme/clip more often when talking about Science! It was really funny.
Also, what's the new book going to cover?
Classic panic attack
"Tibetan Zen" by Sam van Shaik. It's really good research that includes translations of zen manuscripts from Dunhuan "library cave." In chapter 3 you will find instruction for meditation teachers. There are a lot of good points in it, but I will cite those directly connected with Brad's video:
How should we examine the various signs that arise in meditation? When a vision appears before the eyes of a great yogin, it can be the bodies of buddhas and bodhisattvas, or it can be in the form of spirits and demons. Since all appearances are like a fairy city, it is unreasonable either to view them as good qualities or to become fearful.
When something like this appears, pride arises in thoughts like “Because of my great powers, I see emanation bodies and magical signs appear; based on this, I should be ranked alongside
the noble ones!” Or “This is a sign of accomplishment!” Anyone who desires such things violates the supreme wisdom of the buddhas. The great yogin will be overpowered by demons.
Furthermore, if certain yogins do want to see buddhas manifest, the blessings of the buddhas will fulfill this wish, and reflections of the buddhas’ bodies will certainly appear. However, since the buddhas’ bodies are without birth and cessation, all of my visions are nothing more than the perceptions of my own mind. Thus they are like dreams, and I should not desire them.
On the other hand, if reflections of the buddha bodies do not arise for a yogin and no signs appear, that is not necessarily good either. Why? Because no such visions appear to all those various beings who are disturbed by mistaken concepts, yet they are not in accord with the contemplation on the tathāgata. This is due to their great karmic obscurations.
My impression is: Tibetan approaches (with differences between the four/five main schools) are rather "baroque", they often "like to feed the trolls", while Chán/Zen-people prefer the "puritan" approach/attitude: "Don`t feed the trolls!".
@@gunterappoldt3037 You are correct that there are practices in TB like Chod ("Severance"), when you go to fear-inducing place and imagine gods and spirits feasting onto your bodily remains and work through this experience. The goal is to realize emptiness.
Deity yoga, where you use sounds, colors and heavy symbolism to direct a specific change in a mind. But it's not the same as engaging with your meditative experiences.
There are instantaneous enlightenment methods of Dzogchen/Mahamudra, not much difference with Zen.
...and many more, TB is a world in itself with different internal currents. Some prefer simple contemplative methods, some study philosophy and start with analytical meditation, some contemplate mandalas and perform yogic exercises.
The essential point is the same: "special" experiences are the signs of progress, but not the goal itself. Doesn't matter is it a work of Mara or vision of Bhagavan Buddha, common advice is don't grasp at it. Progress includes getting over your illusions.
@@MantrinDharmananda interesting, indeed, many thanks for the reply!
@@MantrinDharmananda "imagine gods and spirits feasting onto your bodily remains and work through this experience. The goal is to realize emptiness."
Does emptiness feast on gods and spirits?
@@Teller3448 Emptiness is not something. It doesn't do anything.
All attempts to designate it are meaningless. Conceptual understanding is a clue, not realization.
Hi Brad, nice video! I never understood if these concepts, like Makyou, were originally intended as a metaphorical interpretation of what is going on in our mind or if they were originally religious concepts and we as modern westerner like to rationalise them stripping them out of their context and supernatural meaning. For what that matters, I like the first interpretation...
One relatively short comment from the cultur-science perspective: In the "spirit lands" (神州, that is, in the lands of the Far East, in the Sinitic World) most people took and take "spirits" (魔鬼等) very serious. (N.B.: The sociologist Max Weber talked in his comparative studies on religions about the "enchanted gardens"). And old Master Kông Qiu (孔丘, ca. 560-480 B.C.E.) already gave this pragmatic advice (paraphrased): "I do not know if gods (神) and spirits really exist. But I recommend: How ever that may be, treat them with respect (follow the rites), and keep distance from them as best as possible."
Regarding the (epistemo-)ontic status of this beings, there is no clear "natural" classification, like: "only mind", "only phenomenal, illusional appearances, mirages", "shear force", "fine matter", "real being", "alternate being", "supernatural being" and so forth.
The standard nomenclature indicates that especially the uncanny, twilight beings, called (in standard translation) "spirits, demons, devils" (魔) exist inside their own sphere (魔境), which yet overlaps with, respectively permeates the existence/life-spheres of other beings, like the human world, the world of flora and fauna, the world of "anorganic beings", and, last not least, "aliens" (which traditionally were, as yet, not as intense technique-affine as those in nowadays science-fiction productions). No wonder, there is this big wealth of ghost-stories (and movies, and mangas ...) in the Far East.
14 Times? I don't know that magazine. Oh, it's Fortean Times. That's different, I know that one.
Thanks for the video Brad. Do you think zazen helps with Panic attacks?
As someone who has experienced them, and as a Zazen practitioner, I’d say yes. That’s not why I do Zazen - Zazen has no use (Sawaki Roshi), but it’s a notable benefit. Also being able to control my breathing helped me a lot. Remaining present dissolves the panic to a degree. At least for me.
@@dr.jeffreyzacko-smith324 Thanks!
On the last day of my first retreat, I experienced a panic attack right after the beginning of the sitting period. The trigger was the same as some panic attacks that I experienced in my early 20s when I moved abroad. I sat through the panic attack, having my heart racing, sweating, feeling the urge to run, my mind panicking; after a few minutes, it stopped. Be aware of it without reacting has been a really interesting experience, but I don't want to suggest anything, you know you.
@@dr.jeffreyzacko-smith324, indirectly you seem to hint at the "ecology of practice" inside the World-of-Zen. Interestingly, the topic of so called Zen-art and Zen-life-style comes up realitvely seldom, or at least not headlong. This may be so, because the theme "Hardcore Zen" is, somehow one-sidedly ("core" can point to "centre", to "depth", to "measure of the means", and so forth), interpreted as just meaning: One-pointedly (ger.: einspitzig) concentrate on the practice of Zazen!
Other studies of "cultural Zen" also suggest a broader picture: its overall design includes the two concepts of (a) "extended meditation" (including samu, kinhin, dokusan, teishou, taku-hatsu [right term?], Zen-arts, and so forth) and (b) "extended sangha/community/communitas" (including lay-persons and "anonymous Zenists", and so forth).
This would yet, indeed, be the "classic" picture as transmitted to the West, beginning, roughly speaking, with the "Conference of World Religions" in Chicago in the year 1886(?).
For example, the early participant-observation report (1920ies), so to speak, of Bungaku Hakushi/Professor of Philosophy, Univ. Erlangen/Bav., Dr. Eugen Herrigel, had the title: "Zen in the Art of Archery" (ger.: Zen in der Kunst des Bogenschießens). For E. Herrigel, the art of archery served as a kind of paradigmatic exemplification and exercise of basic, respectively central Zen-virtues, "virtues" meaning here: the powerful manifestations of the Dào---which again hints at real-existing life-world Zen being half Daoism and half Buddhism ... but that`s another story.
Thanks for sharing.
The fear experience sounds like the dhukka nanas. This not uncommon when you're doing vipassana for long periods of time.
Perhaps not doing hallucinogens along with meditation would also keep one from having those demons show up. 🤔
Really interesting
He had been bored, thats all, bored like most people. Hence he had made himself out of whole cloth a life full of complications and drama. Something must happen and that explains most human commitments. Something must happen even loveless slavery, even war or death. -Albert Camus
I have realized that my practice zen too has become a form of making something happen but instead of complications, I have right now, and right now happens instead of a lot of other things that happened but I'm not sure if it's any better🤔, any wisdom?
"Something must happen and that explains most human commitments."
This is why some people are drawn to Satanism. Heaven is perceived as a boring place where nothing ever happens. And I mean EVER...for the rest of eternity! Without hell, there is no conflict, no drama and therefore no heros.
"In a world without heroes
There's nothing to be
It's no place for me"
great video :)
The five rungs of the ladder symbolise five stages of enlightenment
When you get to the fifth rung...what happens to the other four?
@@Teller3448 when I get there I’ll let you know
The Zen Stooges?!
Time for a reboot! Onigai shimasu! Hah! 🥴
I should try to get an official license.
The main issue with Genpo's Big Mind is that it doesn't go far enough. You really need to be on a high dose of ayahuasca to get the full enlightenment experience with Big Mind.
Does having 'big mind' mean you can ignore what is small?
i'm loving that shirt 👕
What you explain in 13:40 is why I don't like The three pillars of zen... You can not get "enlightenment" on your first sesshin, especially if you're looking for it.... And just beginning to sit...
well, apparently kapleau made those enlightenment stories up, but all the same, if you understand "enlightenment" as a process rather than ridiculous notions of "state" then like all processes its on-going, first sesshin or not
Don't go seeking the paranormal. If you look hard enough, you will find it (it will find you), and it might destroy you (and others). It is ego-driven in motivation so that's all you will find there. Just sit, and understand that whatever is in you and manifests, is in you. Like Brad said. Magical powers/experiences are only safe for those who do not seek them. Seek them and take the consequences. Just mind who you might be taking with you. Just sit.
There is no paranormal, fool. Look around
@@paulmyers9049 Rude.
Yes seeking paranormal in zazen is the anti-shikantaza. Shikantaza is designed to sidestep the gaining mind. Sitting for it's own sake, so simple yet pure genius
Pretty sure the book that youre referring to is sit down and shut up but dont quote me!
Once started to sob during zazen with about 12 other practioners around to witness that happening. For me zazen tend to uncover some intense depressive feelings once in a while.
One question I've been pondering for years now: is the tradition of dharma transmission more harm than good in the West? Having practiced in the Deshimaru lineage, transmission squabbles have been a big problem, with 2 successors claming to be the "one true successor" and accusing the other of being a fake. At the local level the sangha has split further into 3 différent "true successor" branches. I just got tired of this "there can only be one" posturing and have been practicing on my own for years now.
Those kinds of squabbles about dharma transmission are not unique to the west. Read the Platform Sutra if you want to know how bad it got in China centuries ago. I'm not sure how best to handle this. I think dharma transmission is valuable. My teacher's solution was to give transmission to a lot of people.
@@HardcoreZen Thanks for the answer Brad. Not sure how to deal with it either, maybe it's being cowardly or too choosy but I've avoided the issue by getting guidance from books and youtube videos instead, selecting teachers who don't avertise themselves as the "one true successor of hokuto shinken" haha. These kind of plots are only cool in anime 😅
Hmmm, further on that article, I was really hoping you'd touch on how the article mentioned "loss of conceptual thinking" as a psychotic adverse effect of meditation. Sounds particularly related to Zen. A bit like... Isn't it what we're looking for, to drop conceptual thinking? And when it happens is that the disorder itself, or is it only a psychosis if we can't then deal with it?
"to drop conceptual thinking" no, its to improve and straighten out conceptual thinking, its why taking drugs is the wrong road, insight must be on a road of improving cognitive function
you can never lose "cognitive function", but it can twist and fock you up
another way of looking at it, is cognitive function can enable you to map into unknown and surprising areas and you can go into those areas and that's when your views start to radically change and your reading age grows
the difficult thing people have trouble handling is that "ultimate truth" is a psychotic condition, its just cognitively ordered compared to unordered psychosis
The more I practice the less I tend to remember people's names and faces and the more I tend to interact with people in the same neutral polite way no matter who they are. I guess this could be interpreted as a loss of conceptual function, not sure if it's good or bad, sometimes it makes daily living easier, sometimes harder
"Isn't it what we're looking for, to drop conceptual thinking?"
Conceptual...as opposed to what? What other kind of thinking is there?
Sounds like you integrated your Jungian shadow
🙏🧘♀️
Aha!
Say what?
Well, you know ... :)
Did I hear that right? You were alive in the early 80s?
Brad was alive in the early 60s!
@@Teller3448 Crazy, he's almost as old as my dad but looks 40
@@ehrenschopenhaur9159 Its not crazy...its clean living!