8:06 In case anyone missed this GENIUS bit of mime- the Sphagia claps his hands and the blood from them splashes over him. Amazing commitment in Lloyd's acting.
Studied classics in school, whole class dropped out at year 13 and the option was scrapped; on my own to teach myself now. Or so I thought, a proper eccentric history teacher pitted me and helped me along during lunchtimes Same enthusiasm as lindy, not as eccentric though, owe him for my A!
@@I_V_X i had pretty much the same experience. I attended theatre evwry year from 6 to 12 and then our teacher got sacked. Not enough kids to lead a class. Luxkily our Chemistry teacher was a medici level patron of the arts and let three of the senior kids teach while she supervised. Bless that woman she took on more work just to let a bunch of obnoxious theatre tryhards do their thing.
I hope you also realize that the reason the quality of education is so low is because of capitalistic incentives not marxist ones Well u are right on the point that a lot of things are poor And could be different
@@johnchestnut5340 people like you all are the kind that corrects other’s faults, when they are obviously typos, in informal text message. Who even corrects when someone types l instead of L??? Bruh moment
Please come to Christ for on the saves, do not be gay for he forbids it, be sober for god forbids drunkenness, I don’t say theses things to criticise you, I am convicted to spread the words of Christ and don’t use foul language or do sin as it is of the enemy and. God forbids it, so please come to Christ and ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t use foul lanquage as fod forbids it, please ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t reject how god made you human please and don’t reject how god made you human please, repent and ask forgiveness to god please and I don’t mean this I’m a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of Jesus Christ our lord and saviour and I don’t mean that in a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and remind you of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and don’t believe in evolution as Darwin regretted it and it is a distraction from the enemy to hide. God from you so please ask forgiveness and repent to god before you meet him and don’t do sucide as Jesus Christ forbids it, repent and ask forgiveness to Jesus Christ please
@@thorfinn518 Please come to Christ for on the saves, do not be gay for he forbids it, be sober for god forbids drunkenness, I don’t say theses things to criticise you, I am convicted to spread the words of Christ and don’t use foul language or do sin as it is of the enemy and. God forbids it, so please come to Christ and ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t use foul lanquage as fod forbids it, please ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t reject how god made you human please and don’t reject how god made you human please, repent and ask forgiveness to god please and I don’t mean this I’m a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of Jesus Christ our lord and saviour and I don’t mean that in a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and remind you of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and don’t believe in evolution as Darwin regretted it and it is a distraction from the enemy to hide. God from you so please ask forgiveness and repent to god before you meet him and don’t do sucide as Jesus Christ forbids it, repent and ask forgiveness to Jesus Christ please
If the sacrifice is asking "is now a good time to fight" rather than "will I win", it makes sense. The gods can say "Honestly their army is just better than yours, you're pretty much sure to lose, but if you *were* going to attack, now would give you the best chance".
Robert Miles i feel like the Gods really did favor one side in battle, but in order for that side to have victory, there must actually be a battle so the Gods encourage the other side into battle by feigning support.
@@darkmasterchief227 That implies that the gods are willing to stoop to trickery which make me wonder if the gods are in any way related to the world's best known military legendary trick of the Trojan horse. Come to think of it, they should have consulted the gods about such a venture shouldn't they ? Or would that be too minute details to ask the gods about ?
Lindybeige, I really enjoy your videos. They are both informative and entertaining.They are rather like Monty Python doing a actual historical report . Do keep up the good work.
"And yet, when the lesbians... Don't! You know exactly what I meant." LOL This is why I love your channel, very informative with just the right amount of humor.
Facinating, in Classical times, everyone knew (literate) that "lesbians" were the inhabitants of the Isle of Lesbos. I think the connection between the inhabitants of Lesbos and homosexuality might have come from the Island's culture and that became well-known in the ancient world.
Well, there's the fact that ancient Greek states spent significant amounts of economical resources on religion. Temples and sacrifices and clergies aren't cheap. Something that would have been considered a total waste of resources if the great majority of people didn't really believe, or were generally "meh" about it. That, in democracies where the government wasting those resources would have been accountable to a citizenry whose taxes pay for it all. A few atheist politicians may have supported religion simply because of its usefulness for maintaining social order, but for that to work would anyway require a critical mass of actual true believers. So yeah, while textual primary sources make it clear that the idea of atheism was known and had significant adherence among the intellectual classes, that doesn't exclude the (imo, likely) possibility that true belief was the norm among the wider populace. That anecdote about the general who re-did the augurs five times to get the result he wanted suggests that the general may have been an atheist, but that his troops might not have been so, since he had to play along and get the result he wanted. It also suggests the augurs were true believers, otherwise they would have just conspired with the general to produce the result he wanted to begin with.
I think your economical approach is convincing. Talking about opinions is easy. But spending lots of money when wars are being waged all around is totally a different thing. What is more, wasn't Socrates punished with death for disbelief in Greek gods?
Religion that is imposed doesn't mean the majority believes in it even though they go through the motions required by that religion. True, there are people who genuinely believe but usually a human will side with the majority and play along for safety.
@@lorenzorosi3257 well, imposing religion also requires a critical mass of true believers, or a critical mass of people who cooperate with the imposing for whatever reason. Well, except that it wasn't really imposed per se. As the examples cited by Lindy show, the notion that the gods might not exist had occurred to Ancient Greek society, and could be openly discussed. Also, democratic city-states. Religion featured prominently in the public life of them too, something that would hardly have happened if the citizens wouldn't have really cared about religion. Also, religion as a means of social control is worthless if people don't actually believe. Sure, they can be forced to go through the motions, but with the amount of coercive power needed to do that, you could just force them to obey you and do whatever you want them to in the first place. Without pissing away loads of resources on temples, clergies and sacrifices as a useless middleman.
@@anderskorsback4104 I think most of religion is the holidays, gathering, and celebrations. Many do it just for that. Even if everybody knows its false or even might think it is, it still can bring a community together. I do agree with you there are true believers in the world, though I think that they are less than the ones that simply act for social reasons or fear.
It's only natural that some oracles made good predictions... Delphi must've been like a big intelligence agency. Lots of people from the known world traveled there, and the local priests probably asked them about some news of their part of the world, maybe through subterfuge. The result is a heterogeneous load of information, unavailable to most poleis or kings.
Spot on about Delphi, I was just about to comment saying much the same. The better the reputation, the more people came there; the more people came there, the more information; the mor information, the more precise the proclamations; the more presise the proclamations, the better the reputation.
Leader 1: *Makes a sacrifice* God 1: "Don't worry, I got your back!" Leader 1: *Sends troops into battle* Leader 2: *Makes a sacrifice* God 2: "No problem, I'll take care of that!" Leader 2: *Sends troops into battle* God 1: "What did you just say!?" God 2: "Oh, you heard me!" God 1: "Wanna go!?" God 2: "Come at me!" Bystander god: "Bitch fight!" And that's where thunder comes from.
Them be fighting words good sir. You have insulted my honor, i would challenge you to a duel but i can't seem to find my glove. Damn gloves all ways going missing when you need to challenge someone to a duel.
It's perhaps a side point, but I wonder if 'religion' even meant the same thing then as it does now. The word derives, I think, from a Latin word meaning 'binding', referring to the practice of binding oneself to a particular deity. This works very well in a monotheistic world where different faiths compete for 'being the right one', but was perhaps less convenient in a polytheistic world where people would pray to different gods for different things (if you were travelling to Athens by boat, you might ask Zeus to give you good weather on the way to the harbour, then to Poseidon to make the sea relatively calm, and then finally to Athena to make sure you didn't get in trouble in her city), so I wonder if, actually, relatively few people (at least compared to today) were 'religious' in the sense of selecting a particular god over other particular gods (I suppose there were cults who prioritised one deity over all others, but their beliefs and practices probably didn't reflect those of 'ordinary' people). Devotees of Zeus could meet with devotees of Dionysus and they wouldn't have to disagree on points of theology (because both their gods existed), whereas a Christian and a Muslim today can't both be right. If you've made it this far, dear reader, then thank you for excusing my textwall as well as my copious use of brackets.
I think the very word 'religion' changes its meaning, depending on which one it is applied to. In Christianity 'religion' means one thing, in Judaism it's another, in Islam it's yet another, etc. Especially when one gets to Ancient Greece and Rome, it becomes very different. It's not just monotheism vs. polytheism. Greco-Roman polytheism is very different from Hindu one.
Ron Maimon, Huh? Thanks, but I'd rather admit that there are many truths in many faiths than slaughter people in the name of "My religion is superior to yours." Religion means many things, and the best and the deepest of it transcends logic. It goes beyond one and many, immanent and transcendent, existent and nonexistent (yes, nonexistent, as in atheism), possible and impossible, etc. On the other hand, the shallowest and the stupidest of it arms itself with ideology and weapons and goes into verbal and physical battle to prove its unique righteousness, or when it fails to prove it, exterminate anything different. You make your choice.
@Ron Maimon , morality? What in the world is morality? There is no morality. There are mores -- customs and traditions of a particular culture -- but they leave plenty of open situations they do not define, and moreover, they differ from culture to culture without anything higher to judge which is better. Should people marry their first cousins? How about second cousins? What is better: monogamy, polygyny or polyandry? Should a new family live with the groom's parents, the bride's parents, or strike out on their own? Are people to be given complete freedom in these issues, pressured towards the customary solution, or forced into it no matter what? You probably have solutions to these questions that seem obvious and natural to you. But are they really? Once you study anthropology, you realize that nothing is absolute here, and every variant has advantages and disadvantages. It soon gets to things that are just purely customary. The French eat frogs and snails, others find them unpalatable. What does God say about that? And that's just on the general cultural level. There are plenty if situations within any culture, where solutions have to be found by individuals involved by balancing needs, desires, possibilities, conveniences, etc. Reason, emotion, intuition, ... entire human potential needs to get involved. There is no prescribed morality here. It has to be created on the spot. People routinely argue and try to convince each other. Particularly when religion is involved, arguments last for thousands of years without any movement at all. When something of a solution does appear, it does not come from one side or the other, but is like the question "Which side do you break your eggs?" (see "Gulliver's Travels.") The problem people broke so many spears about is shown to be nonsense. What does all this arguing have to do with true God? Nothing. God limited to united morality for all humanity is a very small god. So small it does not exist.
@Ron Maimon Also, if something spreads, it does not mean it's better. 30-year war started in little Bohemia, then spread to Germany, Austria, then to Holland, then Spain got involved, then France, Sweden, Denmark, England, you name it. 8 million people were killed in what started as a small conflict. Right now there are all sorts of stupidities spreading through Western Europe and way beyond, such as that rape of local girls is an acceptable sacrifice for the sake of "diversity" (whatever that means). If anything, I see the opposite. Whatever spreads is worse than what it replaces.
I know it’s been years since you’ve posted this video. You’re creating quality history on the internet and your brain is amazing! You’re the most interesting/entertaining person I’ve watched lately. Thank you for your integrity and longing for purity in history and humanity.
Ahh... Brexiteers, gotta love.... No, actually, no we don't. Funny how most covidiots are also Brexiteers... I guess stupid stays stupid.. Who woulda thunk it?
Beware the reductionist fallacy. Just because people may have multiple, even contradictory motivations, does not necessarily mean that "this" is the "real" motivation. Doing so may say more about your motivations, than the people you are studying. In the same way, just because some eras are less religious than other eras, does not necessarily mean that all eras are irreligious.
Slavik I think it's the british culture he lives in, as far as I can tell the UK has been getting more and more areligious and liberal in the past few years. I mean, teenage sex has gone so rampant in the UK it's become/becoming the norm (tangent point but clearly not a very christian value). As compared to the US where I can and have met many genuinely religious people. Lloyd's also talking about cultures well before medieval europe. Y'know BC.
There is also the point the historians tend to be a less religious bunch. Same tends to be the fact today, there are plenty of religious people but they don't often get the chance to tell everyone's story.
You make an excellent point, Killer. We often tend to take pragmatic approaches to religious practices as evidence to dismiss their beliefs as scams. Yet, even though I am sure, areligious people pretending to be religious must have existed in the ancient world as well, we might just take a pragmatic approach to religion as evidence of the deep religiosity of the people: What I am meaning to say is; if your god is a real, powerful but a bit unhinged being to you, you might just try to bribe, negotiate or renegotiate. And you might falsify that god's approval, cross your fingers he/she doesn't strike you down for it right away and apologize later.
22:50 Or perhaps the Oracle of Delphi was a favorite of the king doing the experiment so they passed around this story to give the Delphi a public relations boost.
The ancient -Greens- Greeks and Romans certainly seem to have put a lot of time, energy and resources into their religions. While there were undoubtedly those among them who were cynical about religion or who were atheists, it's hard to believe they would have invested so much for so long in an institution and set of beliefs they didn't genuinely believe in.
They were probably still the best soldiers in Greece, but their home city's positioning was very defensible, so they can afford to be choosy. Part of their dominance was because they spent more time practicing than anyone else thanks to the Helot slaves. As more city states developed professional armies as opposed to farmers that fought sometimes, Sparta only had their defensive position to fall back on, which is part of why Thebes could defeat them in battle, that Sacred Band was pretty good.
@@imperialguardsman3923 cowards. One and all. Afraid of a hard Day's work, of pulling their own weight. Nothing but braggarts and bullies. Fuck Sparta (of antiquity I have no issue with modern Sparta)
funnily enough, the war was actually going exceedingly well for the Athenians prior to the invasion of Syracuse. According to Herodotus the Athenians had managed to force a settlement upon the Spartans after successfully building and holding a fortification on Lacadeimonian teritory and defeated every attempt to dislodge them. The Athenians even managed to force the surrender of several hundred Spartan wariors during the extended battle. Had Alcibiades not been recalled by his aristocratic oponents before he could even begin to lead the expedition then the Athenians may well have won. As is often the case the squabbling of political elites rather than the supposed stupidity of the masses caused disaster.
Entire thing revolved around Dems being able to force a appointment of a special prosecutor, after which entire government, and military, ground to a halt--
volodymyrboitchouk The problem with the story is that the reason the Athenians lost was Alcibiades first betraying them and going to the Spartans and then betraying them also to the Persians. At which point the winner of the conflict was the the GREAT KING.
Axel Tenveils Alcibiades only did this after the Athenians aristocracy recalled him to Athens from his command. It was obvious that they intended to be rid of him and considering his eventual return to Athens it seems he was always loyal to Athens (though less so than to himself). And even after his defection the Athenians would have won if they still had an agrees I've and charismatic leader like Alcibiades on location. The two generals left after him were a deferential young man with some good ideas and a cowardly old fool who refused to make use of Athenians advantages until it was too late. And it was also the aristocrats of Athens who surrendered to the Spartans at this point leading the Athenians navy, which Alcibiades later joined, to rebel. If the people made a mistake then it was made infinitely worse by the politicking of aristocratic elites, as is usually the case.
Jormugand0 Και άλλος Έλληνας ; Χαχα, έλα δεν ήταν τόσο χάλια. Θα πρέπει να κάνουμε ένα σύλλογο όλοι εμείς οι φαν του Lloyd. Με διαφορά ο καλύτερος RUclipsr του είδους του.
cyborg ναι αλλα αυτη η ερασμιος προφορα ειναι αισχος. Το "οι" το προφερουν "ο+ι" και οχι σαν "ι" για παραδειγμα. Στα σχολεια εχεις δικιο ομως, δεν γινεται καλη δουλεια. Εγω στην θετικη ειμουν αλλα μου αρεσαν τα αρχαια, ειδικα στην πρωτη λυκειου οταν καναμε τα κειμενα του Πελο/κου πολεμου και η εκμαθηση ηταν τραγικη
L: I think there are three interesting things going on here: 1) Assuming that belief and piety in pagan religions work the same way as they do in biblical, commandment based religions - I suggest you go spend some time with some Hindus 2) Assuming that belief and piety work the same way in environments in which everything you do is enfused with belief and piety, as they do in todays secular world in which they are compartmentalised 3) Your final comment that you've never met anyone who you are convinced is really religious is honest and revealing - there is obviously some cognative biases at work here (which is normal) - perhaps you should've been even more forthcoming about your preconceptions or stated them earlier x
Mr. Beige, today i have a state exam, and i am watching your rambling lovely videos to calm my nerves! Lovely work you are doing there, for lots of ppl, cheers!
Yes, Greg, I noticed the same. Incidentally, please allow me to thank your fine country for it's much appreciated assistance during our recent severe bushfires.
The Greeks? I think they were quite similar to us. I think most of them would say they were religious, but wouldn't take it too seriously. And if some ordinary person claimed he talked to gods, they would think he is either mad or drunk. But you know which ancient civilization was really, REALLY religious? The Egyptians. They really took their religion extremely seriously. It seems that they genuinely believed that their king was a son of gods and that he has the power to perform miracles. The Greek historian Herodotus visited Egypt in fifth century BC and commented: "The Egyptians are religious to excess, far beyond any other race."
Ancient Greeks were quite religious. They even had holy wars and people like Protagoras, who had atheistic ideas about the Olympian Gods, was persecuted from Athens and his books were burned. They would even burn the temples of a conquered city for the sake of their own City-God, even though they all shared the same religion.
Cartographer of Arda That could very well be because they viewed their ''religion'' as something metaphorical and an extension of themselves. You could say ancient Greeks were almost obsessed with spreading their culture, ''religion'' was a big part of this just because it represented the Greek way of life. Greek gods were very humanized and someone could easily argue that the gods' purpose was not to ''explain'' life and creation (like many other religions) but to represent the people themselves, their strengths, weaknesses and believes, something that isn't necessarily ''religious''. Even modern Greeks, who in majority are supposed to be orthodox cristians since birth don't really give much attention to religion, most of Greeks would be considered agnostic by the rest of the worlds' view, even if their ID says they're cristians.
@@LazyMe420 You are completely wrong. Ancient Greeks were just as religious as everyone else at the time and today Greece is one of the most religious countries in Europe.
Honestly, the best of your videos I've seen. And, deffinetly my favorite. I was one of those non subscribers, just happy to watch your vids whenever thy showed up in my feed. But, this video is the reason im subscribing to you. I hope you see this comment. Thanks for the great content.
I didn't need audible until now but when I did I used your free trial because you're awesome. Generally too skint to give anything back but now I had the chance.. enjoy!
posthumous fame was one one of the most important virtues in ancient Greek society, you can equate its worth for the Greek soldier to what the code of chivalry was for the knights are the Bushido for the samurai, and the burial was a pretty much the way the the posthumous fame was delivered to the dead, with their most prized possession, gold, rituals and all that jazz. I am not surprised to hear that they would execute commander for that just to calm the masses.
I'm inclined to believe that people believe they believe what they say they believe. Now, they might keep themselves willfully ignorant of parts of that belief which conflict with what they want to do, or even go out of their way to justify their actions, up to and including _ignoring parts of their professed beliefs,_ by quoting various other parts of said beliefs...but they still believe they believe those beliefs. And when you get down to it, how can you say that you know what someone believes better than they do? How can you say their belief in their interpretation of The Book is invalid because it conflicts with _your_ interpretation of said book? ...I mean, obviously you can--wars have been fought over exactly that. But you really shouldn't.
Aubrey Graham Eh...I mean, that covers some of what I was getting at, but not all of it. Also, it would be completely useless at explaining any idea to anyone, since people would either not understand those two words or would already have considered it.
Aubrey & Tim ... Indeed, Philosopher Daniel Dennett has a good take on The Belief in Beliefs being much more potent than the actual beliefs . Hum ... Knowledge is power if you intend to use it to control your tribe . Evolution may be cleverer than we are but humans should ditch this evolved trait rather sooner than later . Respecting ideologies is wrong ... All of them . This attitude of openess to ideological insanity will have our secular democracies die a quick death . Ideologies have no rights . Good day . ... Nice channel .
If you study history at the university level, your professors will beat it into you that you *cannot know what people were thinking in the past* especially regarding religion. Even if they wrote it down, they may have been dishonest.
I think you are confusing following the religious practises with actually believing in religion. I believe that eating right and exercise will make me feel good and live longer. I still eat pizza and take the elevator every chance I get.
I can only speak on a personal level, but for a long time I was definitely one of those rituals only Christians that didn't believe. I just didn't want to say that I was an atheist because I felt my family and my society expected me to be a Christian, and saying that I didn't believe openly would be frowned upon. So I definitely felt that way.
19:10 -- I cannot help but notice that you've skipped over a major distinction that can be drawn between two major schools of cosmological thought which emerged, and which were competing throughout the Roman Republican era. In short, there were those that thought it was possible to appease or persuade "the gods", whatever they might be, and then there were those who thought all of human history was a predetermined thing, and they could only ever seek the advice of oracles, auguries, or other similar systems in order to find out what future was inevitable. In other words -- one group thought the future (or, "the Outcome" whatever that might be) was up for grabs, while the other group considered this to be foolishness. In modern terms, this broad distinction *still exists today,* most notably in the divide between "Natural" and "Common" Law. Freedom from predetermination is, in broad terms, still an unresolved goal for natural law, although the 18th century gave it a good shove. In broad terms, this also defines the differences between the various branches of monotheistic thought as well, especially those derived from the Near and Middle East. Some modern variations, such as Baptists (and not limited to them, either) are exceedingly fond of a preordained future.
So then, any discussion of Classical cultural practices should most likely be divided between practices which actively seek to influence an outcome (ie. Sympathetic Magic, in "Golden Bough" terms) and those which ask for information about a predetermined outcome. To give an example -- The Etruscans specialized in the belief that the future was preordained. They favored animal entrails, the flight of birds, and lightning as sources of divine guidance.
Some of them, some of the time and depending which batch of new ones had recently arrived for overseas. The working class went on with the much emphasised donations and rituals long after their rulers had realised that there wasn't much more to Roman religion than an useful social tool. And later there was that guy in a toga as Rome burned Hoc, Hoc something...and then Augustus and the adoption of Christianity...it all turns into a bit of religion salad in a honey-garlic & exploitation dressing.
Yes everyone was pious in their own way, they either worshiped the god of drinking wine, the god of war, the god of love (including whores) among other more moderate gods. It was quite nice to be religious in ancient Rome.
As 20th century British historian Alan John Percival Taylor said; All war is economic, regardless of the reason(s) stated for a way, the underlying reason(s) is always economic (No quotes because those aren't the exact words, but they're close enough to give you the idea).
Regarding the Spartans my understanding is that "the 300" was the title of a special unit of Spartans, the elite of their soldiers. The size of the unit depended on how many Spartans demonstrated sufficient skill to be member of it, it often numbered a lot more than 300. Also, at the Battle of Thermopylae while there were a lot more than 300 Spartans as well as an even larger force of Athenians and others they were dramatically outnumbered by the Persians. Some sources claim as much as a million men, but even the lowest claims are still over 100,000.
Hey Lloyd, always enjoy your stuff. I wanted to make a general comment about piety in my experience. I am from the southern United States I was raised in family of Southern Baptists and went to church at least twice a week until I got out of school. I used to have pretty strong feelings about faith, most of that wore off during a deployment to Iraq, but I do have many family members and friends who are very religious. I only mean to say that in my opinion genuine belief exists and by extension did exist in history. Does everyone in a religious society believe equally, if at all? Likely no. Do leaders exploit the beliefs of the people? Obviously yes. I just don't think it's fair to paint all people of today or yesterday in your own biased pallette that's all.
Idk if thats true. Most Christians havent read the bible and cherrypick the bits of scripture that just go along with what they were going to do anyway. Not the actions of true belivers
People are very good at rationalizing, often by shifting the importance of our supposed principles in service of how we're feeling at the moment. So while it may be correct to say that the ancient Greeks weren't super pious, I don't think it's right to say that someone is "not religious" for occasionally ignoring the omens any more than it's right to say that someone "doesn't work out" because they occasionally skip leg day.
5 years late I know, but I concur. I enjoy Lindybiege's videos and I am an athiest myself, but this video is transparently him imposing his own views on people from the past. His takes his own athiest/agnostic stance and assumes that perspective is shared by other cynics, ignoring clear evidence of people throughout history demonstrating religiousity.
@@DisorderlyFashion it's a common mistake, I think. We tend to assume everyone shares our worldview, and any evidence to the contrary is just intentional deception. E.g. if you listen to the way people talk about their political opponents, they often seem to think that those opponents *know* that their own policies are stupid and harmful but choose to enact them anyway because it benefits them.
@@ProjectThunderclaw True, but it is a rather egregious mistake for someone who studies history to make, as one has to be aware that the accounts of people from different times and places are inevitably accompanied by different worldviews. If nothing else, it's a good reminder that Lloyd here is a history enthusiast rather than a history scholar.
PlayTheMind well, I am a Pastafarian, so I am not exactly unbiased. But the teachings of my faith do instruct me to say that while I prefer Pasta, you can eat whatever and just try to be a friendly person. RAmen to ye folk of both seafarers and other kinds, ARRR!
Lindybeige made a big mistake in claiming that Socrates was an atheist. In their accounts of Socrates, both Plato and Xenophon (who knew him personally) went to great lengths to demonstrate his piety and respect for the official cults. In particular, Socrates' faith in his personal "daimonion," which warned him against bad decisions, shows that he believed that divine guidance was real.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
8:06
In case anyone missed this GENIUS bit of mime- the Sphagia claps his hands and the blood from them splashes over him. Amazing commitment in Lloyd's acting.
Studied classics in school, whole class dropped out at year 13 and the option was scrapped; on my own to teach myself now.
Or so I thought, a proper eccentric history teacher pitted me and helped me along during lunchtimes
Same enthusiasm as lindy, not as eccentric though, owe him for my A!
@@I_V_X i had pretty much the same experience. I attended theatre evwry year from 6 to 12 and then our teacher got sacked. Not enough kids to lead a class. Luxkily our Chemistry teacher was a medici level patron of the arts and let three of the senior kids teach while she supervised. Bless that woman she took on more work just to let a bunch of obnoxious theatre tryhards do their thing.
Little details like this is why I love lindybeige
What amazes me - As far as I can tell, he does the whole thing in one take. I don’t see the scene cut or the camera shift or anything.
Yeah every one of his videos is like that as far as i can tell... he's amazing.
Yep. Dude knows what he's talking about. But imagine the planning that goes into each video.
Indeed. I truly look up to Mr. Nickolas Lloyd for his ability as an educator and orator.
I hope you also realize that the reason the quality of education is so low is because of capitalistic incentives not marxist ones
Well u are right on the point that a lot of things are poor
And could be different
Patrick Ancona tl;dr today’s education isn’t all that great
Ancient lesbians and goat sacrifice. I expect nothing less from a lindybeige video.
The 'l' is uppercase 'L' in this case. Otherwise it's the wrong word.
@@johnchestnut5340 Comment's three fuckin years old mate
@@apalsnerg its never too late for corrections
@@stefanjasovic2311 it's*
@@johnchestnut5340 people like you all are the kind that corrects other’s faults, when they are obviously typos, in informal text message. Who even corrects when someone types l instead of L??? Bruh moment
We need a supercut of all the lindybeige miming scenes.
I would give that person all of my money. :)
A V lmao yes!
Best Actor goes to... that english twat!
with no context
@Em Jay 21:33 And this 'un, please!
*Lindybeige:* When the Lesbians
*Me:* :D
*Lindybeige:* DON'T
*Me:* :(
Dr. Hallow 😂
😂
*sad pornhub noises*
Please come to Christ for on the saves, do not be gay for he forbids it, be sober for god forbids drunkenness, I don’t say theses things to criticise you, I am convicted to spread the words of Christ and don’t use foul language or do sin as it is of the enemy and. God forbids it, so please come to Christ and ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t use foul lanquage as fod forbids it, please ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t reject how god made you human please and don’t reject how god made you human please, repent and ask forgiveness to god please and I don’t mean this I’m a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of Jesus Christ our lord and saviour and I don’t mean that in a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and remind you of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and don’t believe in evolution as Darwin regretted it and it is a distraction from the enemy to hide. God from you so please ask forgiveness and repent to god before you meet him and don’t do sucide as Jesus Christ forbids it, repent and ask forgiveness to Jesus Christ please
@@thorfinn518 Please come to Christ for on the saves, do not be gay for he forbids it, be sober for god forbids drunkenness, I don’t say theses things to criticise you, I am convicted to spread the words of Christ and don’t use foul language or do sin as it is of the enemy and. God forbids it, so please come to Christ and ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t use foul lanquage as fod forbids it, please ask forgiveness and repent to god and don’t reject how god made you human please and don’t reject how god made you human please, repent and ask forgiveness to god please and I don’t mean this I’m a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of Jesus Christ our lord and saviour and I don’t mean that in a bad way, I am convicted by the holy sprit to spread the word of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and remind you of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and don’t believe in evolution as Darwin regretted it and it is a distraction from the enemy to hide. God from you so please ask forgiveness and repent to god before you meet him and don’t do sucide as Jesus Christ forbids it, repent and ask forgiveness to Jesus Christ please
"Food that walks itself"
Gold
Just 2 minutes ago I saw on the news that Uber now delivers McDonald's to your door. There is nothing new under the sun.
Isn't that general description of any animal?
tohopes wait are you going to eat the delivery person?
Fish, I suppose.
it's called livestock
The world's greatest bleeding goat impression
Maybe he actually sacrifices goats in his backyard? XD
GermanCurl eks dee. hehe so funny such a many fonni meme. eks dee *autistic screeching
GermanCurl; Only if they are his girlfriends
I laughed so hard at that, had to watch it again.
Brian Holmes daaamn Brian... back at it again with the top comment
If the sacrifice is asking "is now a good time to fight" rather than "will I win", it makes sense.
The gods can say "Honestly their army is just better than yours, you're pretty much sure to lose, but if you *were* going to attack, now would give you the best chance".
So this comes down to a local optimization problem then?
Robert Miles i feel like the Gods really did favor one side in battle, but in order for that side to have victory, there must actually be a battle so the Gods encourage the other side into battle by feigning support.
darkmasterchief227 I feel like the Gods didn't favor a side on account of them....not existing...
@@itiscujo i know this, i was speaking notionally
@@darkmasterchief227 That implies that the gods are willing to stoop to trickery which make me wonder if the gods are in any way related to the world's best known military legendary trick of the Trojan horse. Come to think of it, they should have consulted the gods about such a venture shouldn't they ? Or would that be too minute details to ask the gods about ?
Lindybeige, I really enjoy your videos. They are both informative and entertaining.They are rather like Monty Python doing a actual historical report . Do keep up the good work.
6:28 Was it an African swallow or European swallow?
I dont know. AAAAAAAAA!
Both, they were carrying a coconut
Was it unladen
@@miguelafonso4466 african swallows are non migratory
@@miguelafonso4466 carrying it with what?!
One needs sleep.
But one also needs to see Lloyd wrestling imaginary goats to death and impersonating unimpressed Chicken.
James Esteron I am sooo in that exsact position now.
Roll 1d20?
"Alright lads, time for war!"
*rolls 1d20*
CRITICAL FAILURE!
*Entire army slips and fall on their own spears*
this is great
Should have rolled for divination first.
And _that_ is why a natural 1 results in a failed attack, no more, no less.
*YOUR FOOD STORES HAVE BECOME ROTTEN*
Whoops
Makes sense
Why did the King decide not to go to war after all.
He had a gut feeling.
Badum-tsss
don't listen to your heart, listen to the goat's heart.
Executioner!
Beautifully Monty Python-ed!!!
"...But the fourth one stayed up!"
Ten minutes later and I'm still smiling at the Lindybeige demonstration of the sound oracles make.
Dude, seriously...
How is it done in one take?! Conversations with you must be legendary.
One take and first take. The trick is to leave all the mistakes in.
"And yet, when the lesbians... Don't! You know exactly what I meant." LOL This is why I love your channel, very informative with just the right amount of humor.
I grinned as soon as he said it, so his pointing finger felt like it really was poking at me
humours
Facinating, in Classical times, everyone knew (literate) that "lesbians" were the inhabitants of the Isle of Lesbos. I think the connection between the inhabitants of Lesbos and homosexuality might have come from the Island's culture and that became well-known in the ancient world.
Especially from the female poet Sappho of Lesbos.
Lesbians, proper noun...
What did we learn? Lindybeige is the most convincing seer ever.
XavlaminYT also the most convincing chicken
Well, there's the fact that ancient Greek states spent significant amounts of economical resources on religion. Temples and sacrifices and clergies aren't cheap. Something that would have been considered a total waste of resources if the great majority of people didn't really believe, or were generally "meh" about it. That, in democracies where the government wasting those resources would have been accountable to a citizenry whose taxes pay for it all. A few atheist politicians may have supported religion simply because of its usefulness for maintaining social order, but for that to work would anyway require a critical mass of actual true believers.
So yeah, while textual primary sources make it clear that the idea of atheism was known and had significant adherence among the intellectual classes, that doesn't exclude the (imo, likely) possibility that true belief was the norm among the wider populace.
That anecdote about the general who re-did the augurs five times to get the result he wanted suggests that the general may have been an atheist, but that his troops might not have been so, since he had to play along and get the result he wanted. It also suggests the augurs were true believers, otherwise they would have just conspired with the general to produce the result he wanted to begin with.
I guess the average plebs were god believers but some smart people were atheists
I think your economical approach is convincing. Talking about opinions is easy. But spending lots of money when wars are being waged all around is totally a different thing. What is more, wasn't Socrates punished with death for disbelief in Greek gods?
Religion that is imposed doesn't mean the majority believes in it even though they go through the motions required by that religion. True, there are people who genuinely believe but usually a human will side with the majority and play along for safety.
@@lorenzorosi3257 well, imposing religion also requires a critical mass of true believers, or a critical mass of people who cooperate with the imposing for whatever reason. Well, except that it wasn't really imposed per se. As the examples cited by Lindy show, the notion that the gods might not exist had occurred to Ancient Greek society, and could be openly discussed. Also, democratic city-states. Religion featured prominently in the public life of them too, something that would hardly have happened if the citizens wouldn't have really cared about religion.
Also, religion as a means of social control is worthless if people don't actually believe. Sure, they can be forced to go through the motions, but with the amount of coercive power needed to do that, you could just force them to obey you and do whatever you want them to in the first place. Without pissing away loads of resources on temples, clergies and sacrifices as a useless middleman.
@@anderskorsback4104 I think most of religion is the holidays, gathering, and celebrations. Many do it just for that. Even if everybody knows its false or even might think it is, it still can bring a community together. I do agree with you there are true believers in the world, though I think that they are less than the ones that simply act for social reasons or fear.
I've been watching a bunch of your videos recently, you're a really funny, knowledgeable and entertaining guy. Thank you for the uploads.
He's great, always make good content
It's only natural that some oracles made good predictions...
Delphi must've been like a big intelligence agency. Lots of people from the known world traveled there, and the local priests probably asked them about some news of their part of the world, maybe through subterfuge. The result is a heterogeneous load of information, unavailable to most poleis or kings.
Spot on about Delphi, I was just about to comment saying much the same. The better the reputation, the more people came there; the more people came there, the more information; the mor information, the more precise the proclamations; the more presise the proclamations, the better the reputation.
I lost you on goats
Especially with the part of the ritual going on behind curtains, where the priest has time to look up the information.
So... in other words, the Oracle of Delphi was the Johnny the Shoeshine Guy of her time and region.
In other words, oracle of Delphi was Lord Varys of Greece, the master of whispers.
13:26 I still cant stop laughing... "EEK THE SPARTANS!" Easily best thing in a long time Lloyd!
Lloyd is the uncle I've always wanted.
I've dedicated myself to being an evil uncle - my niece's 1st x-mas I gave her a plush tarantula.
But not the writer.
You have to admit a polytheist never says "how can the same God who does x also does y?"
Ah, the lack of a spear. The eternal problem of the Lesbian.
Until they buy one..
@Lord Voldemort Good for you Selena.. 14 carrots..
As a bisexual woman, no this is not a problem.
EloquentTroll of course not, that’s the point of being bisexual and not a lesbian.
Sharp and to the point, you magnificently mental eccentric icon..
Leader 1: *Makes a sacrifice*
God 1: "Don't worry, I got your back!"
Leader 1: *Sends troops into battle*
Leader 2: *Makes a sacrifice*
God 2: "No problem, I'll take care of that!"
Leader 2: *Sends troops into battle*
God 1: "What did you just say!?"
God 2: "Oh, you heard me!"
God 1: "Wanna go!?"
God 2: "Come at me!"
Bystander god: "Bitch fight!"
And that's where thunder comes from.
Randy Kalff LOL
The duel of Athena and Ares in the Ilias in a nutshell.
Them be fighting words good sir. You have insulted my honor, i would challenge you to a duel but i can't seem to find my glove. Damn gloves all ways going missing when you need to challenge someone to a duel.
+Forest elfranger Good, gives me time to find my own.
I know I have them around here somewhere.
Ancient World Star!
My oracle, Jotuba Notificata, told me that Lindybeige uploaded.
ö. . , How many goats did it take to get this favourable omen?
I had to perform the ritual of Postea Visum first, but fortunately the winds soon changed and the new omens were more favorable.
Your joke is not fucking funny.
*whomever stupid, dim witted Mancunian
Dhir Kemka *whomstdvever
It's perhaps a side point, but I wonder if 'religion' even meant the same thing then as it does now. The word derives, I think, from a Latin word meaning 'binding', referring to the practice of binding oneself to a particular deity. This works very well in a monotheistic world where different faiths compete for 'being the right one', but was perhaps less convenient in a polytheistic world where people would pray to different gods for different things (if you were travelling to Athens by boat, you might ask Zeus to give you good weather on the way to the harbour, then to Poseidon to make the sea relatively calm, and then finally to Athena to make sure you didn't get in trouble in her city), so I wonder if, actually, relatively few people (at least compared to today) were 'religious' in the sense of selecting a particular god over other particular gods (I suppose there were cults who prioritised one deity over all others, but their beliefs and practices probably didn't reflect those of 'ordinary' people). Devotees of Zeus could meet with devotees of Dionysus and they wouldn't have to disagree on points of theology (because both their gods existed), whereas a Christian and a Muslim today can't both be right.
If you've made it this far, dear reader, then thank you for excusing my textwall as well as my copious use of brackets.
TranscendentLion I agree with this. I am currently studying some of this in school and it is quite intriguing.
I think the very word 'religion' changes its meaning, depending on which one it is applied to. In Christianity 'religion' means one thing, in Judaism it's another, in Islam it's yet another, etc. Especially when one gets to Ancient Greece and Rome, it becomes very different.
It's not just monotheism vs. polytheism. Greco-Roman polytheism is very different from Hindu one.
Ron Maimon, Huh?
Thanks, but I'd rather admit that there are many truths in many faiths than slaughter people in the name of "My religion is superior to yours."
Religion means many things, and the best and the deepest of it transcends logic. It goes beyond one and many, immanent and transcendent, existent and nonexistent (yes, nonexistent, as in atheism), possible and impossible, etc.
On the other hand, the shallowest and the stupidest of it arms itself with ideology and weapons and goes into verbal and physical battle to prove its unique righteousness, or when it fails to prove it, exterminate anything different.
You make your choice.
@Ron Maimon , morality? What in the world is morality? There is no morality. There are mores -- customs and traditions of a particular culture -- but they leave plenty of open situations they do not define, and moreover, they differ from culture to culture without anything higher to judge which is better. Should people marry their first cousins? How about second cousins? What is better: monogamy, polygyny or polyandry? Should a new family live with the groom's parents, the bride's parents, or strike out on their own? Are people to be given complete freedom in these issues, pressured towards the customary solution, or forced into it no matter what?
You probably have solutions to these questions that seem obvious and natural to you. But are they really? Once you study anthropology, you realize that nothing is absolute here, and every variant has advantages and disadvantages.
It soon gets to things that are just purely customary. The French eat frogs and snails, others find them unpalatable. What does God say about that?
And that's just on the general cultural level. There are plenty if situations within any culture, where solutions have to be found by individuals involved by balancing needs, desires, possibilities, conveniences, etc. Reason, emotion, intuition, ... entire human potential needs to get involved. There is no prescribed morality here. It has to be created on the spot.
People routinely argue and try to convince each other. Particularly when religion is involved, arguments last for thousands of years without any movement at all. When something of a solution does appear, it does not come from one side or the other, but is like the question "Which side do you break your eggs?" (see "Gulliver's Travels.") The problem people broke so many spears about is shown to be nonsense.
What does all this arguing have to do with true God? Nothing.
God limited to united morality for all humanity is a very small god. So small it does not exist.
@Ron Maimon Also, if something spreads, it does not mean it's better.
30-year war started in little Bohemia, then spread to Germany, Austria, then to Holland, then Spain got involved, then France, Sweden, Denmark, England, you name it. 8 million people were killed in what started as a small conflict.
Right now there are all sorts of stupidities spreading through Western Europe and way beyond, such as that rape of local girls is an acceptable sacrifice for the sake of "diversity" (whatever that means).
If anything, I see the opposite. Whatever spreads is worse than what it replaces.
I know it’s been years since you’ve posted this video. You’re creating quality history on the internet and your brain is amazing! You’re the most interesting/entertaining person I’ve watched lately. Thank you for your integrity and longing for purity in history and humanity.
That was the single greatest EU referendum explanation I've ever heard. :)
@Pan M good on you. We czechs are also free of immigrants from these particular waves. "Wir schaffen das", says merkel. But they cant.
Ahh... Brexiteers, gotta love.... No, actually, no we don't.
Funny how most covidiots are also Brexiteers...
I guess stupid stays stupid..
Who woulda thunk it?
^ Late remoaner spam is late XD.
@@Zathaghil I'm a communist brexiteer and i think corvid is deadly
Except for the Brexit referendum so close, and only 27% voted for it. Wish they'd done the goat thing instead.
Beware the reductionist fallacy. Just because people may have multiple, even contradictory motivations, does not necessarily mean that "this" is the "real" motivation. Doing so may say more about your motivations, than the people you are studying. In the same way, just because some eras are less religious than other eras, does not necessarily mean that all eras are irreligious.
Thank you.
Slavik
I think it's the british culture he lives in, as far as I can tell the UK has been getting more and more areligious and liberal in the past few years. I mean, teenage sex has gone so rampant in the UK it's become/becoming the norm (tangent point but clearly not a very christian value).
As compared to the US where I can and have met many genuinely religious people.
Lloyd's also talking about cultures well before medieval europe. Y'know BC.
SoupCan What are you talking about? Especially for girls, teenage sex is considered normal. Premarital sex at any age on the other hand...
There is also the point the historians tend to be a less religious bunch.
Same tends to be the fact today, there are plenty of religious people but they don't often get the chance to tell everyone's story.
You make an excellent point, Killer. We often tend to take pragmatic approaches to religious practices as evidence to dismiss their beliefs as scams. Yet, even though I am sure, areligious people pretending to be religious must have existed in the ancient world as well, we might just take a pragmatic approach to religion as evidence of the deep religiosity of the people: What I am meaning to say is; if your god is a real, powerful but a bit unhinged being to you, you might just try to bribe, negotiate or renegotiate. And you might falsify that god's approval, cross your fingers he/she doesn't strike you down for it right away and apologize later.
22:50 Or perhaps the Oracle of Delphi was a favorite of the king doing the experiment so they passed around this story to give the Delphi a public relations boost.
according to the goat I just slaughtered, this is the first of a long, long unbroken chain of weekly Lindybeige uploads!
blessings brother. a bountiful harvest awaits us indeed.
its liver seems a little bit goaty, dont you think?
Boborbot Well you will be disappointed when he up and leaves for another 3 weeks.
“You can’t cancel Easter!”- Ha 2020 proves another point wrong
Also sacrificing goats today would put a big dent on the music industry.
@@wendel5868 the record companies would just draft donkeys instead
Your delivery of the Monty Python was lovely and welcome!
You're the reason I study history, thank you. You're a true inspiration
I'm maori, love your channel
could you maybe make a video about the maori, our war tactics were pretty cool
ShaneyBot wow he actually did it.
@@pyramear5414 haha nice
ruclips.net/video/s6QhW5S8Gk4/видео.html
Holy crap was that the most amazing video request ever. Kia Ora!
I dont know, but watching him murder the imaginary goat made feel rather unconfortable, like it was actually alive. You sir are a great actor!
The ancient -Greens- Greeks and Romans certainly seem to have put a lot of time, energy and resources into their religions. While there were undoubtedly those among them who were cynical about religion or who were atheists, it's hard to believe they would have invested so much for so long in an institution and set of beliefs they didn't genuinely believe in.
ending was really good, well worth the 25 min watch time. great video!
i love how well lloyd edited in the special effects :0 you could see the blood spraying EVERYWHERE
Sounds like the Spartans were the equivalent of the lawyers who only take certain cases to keep up their prosecution percentage.
Yep. A culture of cowards.
@@PreistofGHAZpork wut
They were probably still the best soldiers in Greece, but their home city's positioning was very defensible, so they can afford to be choosy. Part of their dominance was because they spent more time practicing than anyone else thanks to the Helot slaves. As more city states developed professional armies as opposed to farmers that fought sometimes, Sparta only had their defensive position to fall back on, which is part of why Thebes could defeat them in battle, that Sacred Band was pretty good.
Bloody stat padders;))))
@@imperialguardsman3923 cowards. One and all. Afraid of a hard Day's work, of pulling their own weight.
Nothing but braggarts and bullies.
Fuck Sparta (of antiquity I have no issue with modern Sparta)
Thumbs up because you kept the mid-video sponsor spiel far more concise than the usual third of the video it normally eats up.
Thank you for bringing history to life! The set-up to the Monty Python and the Holy Grail joke and its execution- marvelous!
I could listen to this man talk for hours!
funnily enough, the war was actually going exceedingly well for the Athenians prior to the invasion of Syracuse. According to Herodotus the Athenians had managed to force a settlement upon the Spartans after successfully building and holding a fortification on Lacadeimonian teritory and defeated every attempt to dislodge them. The Athenians even managed to force the surrender of several hundred Spartan wariors during the extended battle.
Had Alcibiades not been recalled by his aristocratic oponents before he could even begin to lead the expedition then the Athenians may well have won. As is often the case the squabbling of political elites rather than the supposed stupidity of the masses caused disaster.
Entire thing revolved around Dems being able to force a appointment of a special prosecutor, after which entire government, and military, ground to a halt--
volodymyrboitchouk The problem with the story is that the reason the Athenians lost was Alcibiades first betraying them and going to the Spartans and then betraying them also to the Persians. At which point the winner of the conflict was the the GREAT KING.
Axel Tenveils Alcibiades only did this after the Athenians aristocracy recalled him to Athens from his command. It was obvious that they intended to be rid of him and considering his eventual return to Athens it seems he was always loyal to Athens (though less so than to himself).
And even after his defection the Athenians would have won if they still had an agrees I've and charismatic leader like Alcibiades on location. The two generals left after him were a deferential young man with some good ideas and a cowardly old fool who refused to make use of Athenians advantages until it was too late. And it was also the aristocrats of Athens who surrendered to the Spartans at this point leading the Athenians navy, which Alcibiades later joined, to rebel. If the people made a mistake then it was made infinitely worse by the politicking of aristocratic elites, as is usually the case.
The man is both knowledgeable AND hilarious.
... My excitement *INTENSIFIES* ❕
whenever i watch any youtube videos over 30 minutes i always get bored but this channel is the only one that doesn't bore me. love the videos here
Really loved the wonderful rendition of the sacrifices. The pathos, the details... i almost cried.
I am Greek, and yes, i died a little bit inside when i heard you say those words :)
Jormugand0 Και άλλος Έλληνας ; Χαχα, έλα δεν ήταν τόσο χάλια. Θα πρέπει να κάνουμε ένα σύλλογο όλοι εμείς οι φαν του Lloyd. Με διαφορά ο καλύτερος RUclipsr του είδους του.
Jormugand0 Δες επισης "Metatron", "Shadiversity" και "Scholagladiatoria". Πολύ ποιοτικό παρόμοιο περιεχόμενο!
cyborg ναι αλλα αυτη η ερασμιος προφορα ειναι αισχος. Το "οι" το προφερουν "ο+ι" και οχι σαν "ι" για παραδειγμα. Στα σχολεια εχεις δικιο ομως, δεν γινεται καλη δουλεια. Εγω στην θετικη ειμουν αλλα μου αρεσαν τα αρχαια, ειδικα στην πρωτη λυκειου οταν καναμε τα κειμενα του Πελο/κου πολεμου και η εκμαθηση ηταν τραγικη
cyborg παρολαυτα διαβαζοντας κειμενα και μιλοντας με μορφωμενους ανθρωπους μαθαινεις σε ενα βαθμο την αρχαια προφορα
L: I think there are three interesting things going on here:
1) Assuming that belief and piety in pagan religions work the same way as they do in biblical, commandment based religions - I suggest you go spend some time with some Hindus
2) Assuming that belief and piety work the same way in environments in which everything you do is enfused with belief and piety, as they do in todays secular world in which they are compartmentalised
3) Your final comment that you've never met anyone who you are convinced is really religious is honest and revealing - there is obviously some cognative biases at work here (which is normal) - perhaps you should've been even more forthcoming about your preconceptions or stated them earlier x
9:56 This seems like the kind of joke I'd play if I were a god. Let them win after an enormously outrageous promise to me if I let them win.
It sounded to me like a situation in mafia movies, lol
Lloyd struggling with an invisible goat four years ago has been the highlight of my day today.
Mr. Beige, today i have a state exam, and i am watching your rambling lovely videos to calm my nerves! Lovely work you are doing there, for lots of ppl, cheers!
"...the gods favored *swirl* ME."
Maori hackers?
Don't know about Greek pronunciation, but as a New Zealander and programmer, that one gave me a grin.
Yes, Greg, I noticed the same. Incidentally, please allow me to thank your fine country for it's much appreciated assistance during our recent severe bushfires.
I love the theatrical sacrifice reenactments! :D You missed your calling, Lloyd. ;)
LOVED IT LINDY!! The content is fantastic.
The Greeks? I think they were quite similar to us. I think most of them would say they were religious, but wouldn't take it too seriously. And if some ordinary person claimed he talked to gods, they would think he is either mad or drunk.
But you know which ancient civilization was really, REALLY religious? The Egyptians. They really took their religion extremely seriously. It seems that they genuinely believed that their king was a son of gods and that he has the power to perform miracles. The Greek historian Herodotus visited Egypt in fifth century BC and commented: "The Egyptians are religious to excess, far beyond any other race."
Ancient Greeks were quite religious. They even had holy wars and people like Protagoras, who had atheistic ideas about the Olympian Gods, was persecuted from Athens and his books were burned. They would even burn the temples of a conquered city for the sake of their own City-God, even though they all shared the same religion.
Have you ever met greeks? They are very special people even today. I wouldn't put it past them to be different.
Cartographer of Arda
That could very well be because they viewed their ''religion'' as something metaphorical and an extension of themselves.
You could say ancient Greeks were almost obsessed with spreading their culture, ''religion'' was a big part of this just because it represented the Greek way of life. Greek gods were very humanized and someone could easily argue that the gods' purpose was not to ''explain'' life and creation (like many other religions) but to represent the people themselves, their strengths, weaknesses and believes, something that isn't necessarily ''religious''.
Even modern Greeks, who in majority are supposed to be orthodox cristians since birth don't really give much attention to religion, most of Greeks would be considered agnostic by the rest of the worlds' view, even if their ID says they're cristians.
I would absolutely concur.
@@LazyMe420
You are completely wrong.
Ancient Greeks were just as religious as everyone else at the time and today Greece is one of the most religious countries in Europe.
Lol, I love the Monty Python reference! "But the fourth one... stayed up!" :)
Your videos are incredible and quite brilliant. Thanks for imparting such knowledge and opening up wonderful discussions with us. Cheers mate! :)
You look like Graham Chapman come back to us, and your commentary is very amusing to me. Good stuff.
Bless you man. You're amazing at teaching stuff in a funny and engaging way.
Honestly, the best of your videos I've seen. And, deffinetly my favorite. I was one of those non subscribers, just happy to watch your vids whenever thy showed up in my feed. But, this video is the reason im subscribing to you. I hope you see this comment. Thanks for the great content.
I'm a Greek and didn't die that much! keep up the amazing work!
Never take away a Lesbian's spear, they get very upset.
"Panic, Darkness, and Cliffs" is the name of my Amon Amarth cover band.
I didn't need audible until now but when I did I used your free trial because you're awesome. Generally too skint to give anything back but now I had the chance.. enjoy!
Bravo! One of the best I have seen. Thanks
posthumous fame was one one of the most important virtues in ancient Greek society, you can equate its worth for the Greek soldier to what the code of chivalry was for the knights are the Bushido for the samurai, and the burial was a pretty much the way the the posthumous fame was delivered to the dead, with their most prized possession, gold, rituals and all that jazz. I am not surprised to hear that they would execute commander for that just to calm the masses.
Code of chivalry of knights was not really true, and there was not a official code that they follow. Its something more for tales.
I'm inclined to believe that people believe they believe what they say they believe. Now, they might keep themselves willfully ignorant of parts of that belief which conflict with what they want to do, or even go out of their way to justify their actions, up to and including _ignoring parts of their professed beliefs,_ by quoting various other parts of said beliefs...but they still believe they believe those beliefs. And when you get down to it, how can you say that you know what someone believes better than they do? How can you say their belief in their interpretation of The Book is invalid because it conflicts with _your_ interpretation of said book?
...I mean, obviously you can--wars have been fought over exactly that. But you really shouldn't.
you can sum that entire paragraph into two words:
cognitive dissonance.
Aubrey Graham Eh...I mean, that covers some of what I was getting at, but not all of it. Also, it would be completely useless at explaining any idea to anyone, since people would either not understand those two words or would already have considered it.
Aubrey & Tim ... Indeed, Philosopher Daniel Dennett has a good take on The Belief in Beliefs being much more potent than the actual beliefs . Hum ... Knowledge is power if you intend to use it to control your tribe . Evolution may be cleverer than we are but humans should ditch this evolved trait rather sooner than later .
Respecting ideologies is wrong ... All of them . This attitude of openess to ideological insanity will have our secular democracies die a quick death . Ideologies have no rights .
Good day . ... Nice channel .
If you study history at the university level, your professors will beat it into you that you *cannot know what people were thinking in the past* especially regarding religion. Even if they wrote it down, they may have been dishonest.
KC We get it, stop beating a dead horse.
I think you are confusing following the religious practises with actually believing in religion. I believe that eating right and exercise will make me feel good and live longer. I still eat pizza and take the elevator every chance I get.
I can only speak on a personal level, but for a long time I was definitely one of those rituals only Christians that didn't believe. I just didn't want to say that I was an atheist because I felt my family and my society expected me to be a Christian, and saying that I didn't believe openly would be frowned upon. So I definitely felt that way.
19:10 -- I cannot help but notice that you've skipped over a major distinction that can be drawn between two major schools of cosmological thought which emerged, and which were competing throughout the Roman Republican era. In short, there were those that thought it was possible to appease or persuade "the gods", whatever they might be, and then there were those who thought all of human history was a predetermined thing, and they could only ever seek the advice of oracles, auguries, or other similar systems in order to find out what future was inevitable.
In other words -- one group thought the future (or, "the Outcome" whatever that might be) was up for grabs, while the other group considered this to be foolishness. In modern terms, this broad distinction *still exists today,* most notably in the divide between "Natural" and "Common" Law. Freedom from predetermination is, in broad terms, still an unresolved goal for natural law, although the 18th century gave it a good shove.
In broad terms, this also defines the differences between the various branches of monotheistic thought as well, especially those derived from the Near and Middle East. Some modern variations, such as Baptists (and not limited to them, either) are exceedingly fond of a preordained future.
So then, any discussion of Classical cultural practices should most likely be divided between practices which actively seek to influence an outcome (ie. Sympathetic Magic, in "Golden Bough" terms) and those which ask for information about a predetermined outcome. To give an example -- The Etruscans specialized in the belief that the future was preordained. They favored animal entrails, the flight of birds, and lightning as sources of divine guidance.
the Romans were renowned for their piety. They believed strongly in their gods and their rites
Some of them, some of the time and depending which batch of new ones had recently arrived for overseas. The working class went on with the much emphasised donations and rituals long after their rulers had realised that there wasn't much more to Roman religion than an useful social tool.
And later there was that guy in a toga as Rome burned Hoc, Hoc something...and then Augustus and the adoption of Christianity...it all turns into a bit of religion salad in a honey-garlic & exploitation dressing.
A spectacularly useless deployement of four words. 10/10 for concision: never, has less been said, with so little, by such void.
says you..
Do you believe in those Gods? You say you're a Pagan?
Yes everyone was pious in their own way, they either worshiped the god of drinking wine, the god of war, the god of love (including whores) among other more moderate gods. It was quite nice to be religious in ancient Rome.
These thumbnails are getting bit too awesome, you might need to slow down with them Lloyd.
Its 1 am,the hell are you thinking Lindybeige?
xB33DV time zones, he was thinking about the perfect time during the day to troll you Americans.
xB33DV Its 5 pm PST here so America is fine.
Fishy Films its 4 in america, its 1am in europe silly
xB33DV as a finnish security guard im very glad for lindy making my night shift a bit more enjoyable
Zachary Tuttle I was just asleep when it was uploaded so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
As 20th century British historian Alan John Percival Taylor said; All war is economic, regardless of the reason(s) stated for a way, the underlying reason(s) is always economic (No quotes because those aren't the exact words, but they're close enough to give you the idea).
Regarding the Spartans my understanding is that "the 300" was the title of a special unit of Spartans, the elite of their soldiers. The size of the unit depended on how many Spartans demonstrated sufficient skill to be member of it, it often numbered a lot more than 300. Also, at the Battle of Thermopylae while there were a lot more than 300 Spartans as well as an even larger force of Athenians and others they were dramatically outnumbered by the Persians. Some sources claim as much as a million men, but even the lowest claims are still over 100,000.
I have watched the entire video, trust me.
IllidanS4 nice
IllidanS4 "gasp"
IllidanS4 you
IllidanS4 are
IllidanS4 me
This was fascinating. Thank you.
"All this will be yours!"
"What, the Carthaginians?"
I love the eccentricity, the knowledge & enthusiasm
It's always enjoyable to watch your videos!Keep it up!
The goat sacrifice part was awesome hahahahahahaha
Great video, Lindy =]
Hey Lloyd, always enjoy your stuff. I wanted to make a general comment about piety in my experience. I am from the southern United States I was raised in family of Southern Baptists and went to church at least twice a week until I got out of school. I used to have pretty strong feelings about faith, most of that wore off during a deployment to Iraq, but I do have many family members and friends who are very religious. I only mean to say that in my opinion genuine belief exists and by extension did exist in history. Does everyone in a religious society believe equally, if at all? Likely no. Do leaders exploit the beliefs of the people? Obviously yes. I just don't think it's fair to paint all people of today or yesterday in your own biased pallette that's all.
Idk if thats true. Most Christians havent read the bible and cherrypick the bits of scripture that just go along with what they were going to do anyway. Not the actions of true belivers
@@joshme3659 Being good at appearing as a believer, and being a believer, arent the same thing.
34:37 "Oh! That's a good sacrifice!"
Lmao sometimes the way he expresses the speculated thoughts of ancient people is just delightfully hilarious.
This man makes history lessons great.
You're super funny and silly. Can't get enough of your lectures. Very interesting too!
>Saw it was 35 minutes
>Instantly clicked like button
GUNNERTLC7 I feel personally attacked
People are very good at rationalizing, often by shifting the importance of our supposed principles in service of how we're feeling at the moment. So while it may be correct to say that the ancient Greeks weren't super pious, I don't think it's right to say that someone is "not religious" for occasionally ignoring the omens any more than it's right to say that someone "doesn't work out" because they occasionally skip leg day.
5 years late I know, but I concur. I enjoy Lindybiege's videos and I am an athiest myself, but this video is transparently him imposing his own views on people from the past. His takes his own athiest/agnostic stance and assumes that perspective is shared by other cynics, ignoring clear evidence of people throughout history demonstrating religiousity.
@@DisorderlyFashion it's a common mistake, I think. We tend to assume everyone shares our worldview, and any evidence to the contrary is just intentional deception.
E.g. if you listen to the way people talk about their political opponents, they often seem to think that those opponents *know* that their own policies are stupid and harmful but choose to enact them anyway because it benefits them.
@@ProjectThunderclaw True, but it is a rather egregious mistake for someone who studies history to make, as one has to be aware that the accounts of people from different times and places are inevitably accompanied by different worldviews.
If nothing else, it's a good reminder that Lloyd here is a history enthusiast rather than a history scholar.
@@DisorderlyFashion very true
Love that Swamp Castle reference. :D
People say that delphi was located under a natural gas saurce and people there were high all the time and gave crazy answers
"Its a very convenient way of carrying food, they have legs" brilliant!
Lindy, the original Brexiter.
Seriously though, props my man; props.
Thanks Lindy, I appreciate a good Monty Python reference.
*Souvlaki* _VS_ *Spaghetti*
I like both, but... Spaghetti FTW!
Put Souvlaki VS Pizza and you get one crushing defeat.
PlayTheMind
well, I am a Pastafarian, so I am not exactly unbiased. But the teachings of my faith do instruct me to say that while I prefer Pasta, you can eat whatever and just try to be a friendly person.
RAmen to ye folk of both seafarers and other kinds, ARRR!
as a Greek there is only one answer and that is souvlaki
Lindybeige made a big mistake in claiming that Socrates was an atheist. In their accounts of Socrates, both Plato and Xenophon (who knew him personally) went to great lengths to demonstrate his piety and respect for the official cults. In particular, Socrates' faith in his personal "daimonion," which warned him against bad decisions, shows that he believed that divine guidance was real.
The Swamp Castle reference got a good chuckle out of me, thanks