Thanks for the mention! Was really interested in the suspension/pivot of the needle bar, as I thought they were leaving transmission of the soundwaves wholly to chance. As long as the metal of the suspension (both on the fake & on the sonata) I'd expect a reasonable degree of compliance. My pet hate is uncompliant suapension/diaphragms. Due to the suppression of unwanted resonances, the listener is lulled into believing the soundbox is ok, whilst the grooves are being damaged, especially in the louder parts. Sometimes this is even visible on records that have suffered this fate.
I thought the Sonata would have some sort of pivot, but it seems to be relying on the inherent flexibility of the small strip of metal which is bolted to the inner casting. If I can think of a way to improve the fake I may do so. It probably needs new gaskets too, but that I think I can do. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks again for this highly detailed comparison. The 'sort of' torsion spring in the stylus bar pivot is just like my recently bought fake, horn bracket looks like the same casting as mine. Date of record is spot on for the external horn era, being 2nd July 1912. Remained in the catalogue till May 1926.
Thanks 😀 👍. Yes it doesn't seem to be that great a design of soundbox. The Sonata is probably a little better, but I would have thought it would have been just as easy to copy a better design 🤔
@@mrrgstuff i agree absolutely. There is some degree of skill that the Indian guys use to put these together. I’ve never understood why they don’t produce something better. If not a whole machine, there could be all sorts of parts they could produce. Must be economics I guess.
Yes, I think if there was actual demand for a working machine, the quality would be better at the factory gate, and there would be importers who would also improve the quality further (for a price). This model works for the Chinese minilathes, but then ultimately they are tools, not decorative pieces like these gramophones. Thanks 😀 👍
The "spider" isn't called a spider -- the ones you've seen attached to Victor Orthophonic reproducer diaphragms is called a spider -- this piece is called a "phase plug". It breaks up certain resonances in the diaphragm vibrations that caused a harshness in the sound.
@@mrrgstuff You're welcome! I believe Victor was first to use it with the 2nd gen of Orthophonic reproducers. Great video, I wish there was more stuff focused on reproducer design and repair, so thanks for your content!
Thanks for the comparison. At one time I had two of the fake gramophones (I knew they were fake when I got them) and one sound box sounded surprisingly fantastic, the other buzzed terribly. I heavily modified one of the gramophones for myself and sold the other one fully informing the buyer that it is not an original antique. The one I sold actually works fine and the good sound box went with. The buzzy box is in my spares somewhere.
I have a couple of these soundboxes too. The one I worked on came with the machine. The other, in a job lot and I don't think I have ever tested it. It is very similar yet different enough to see that it didn't come off the same production line at the same time. Whilst this soundbox seems an odd choice for a horn machine, its construction doesn't require rubber gaskets or mica diaphragm. The way the pivot has been simplified on the fake is interesting and very efficient from a manufacturing point of view, but probably very hard on the records! 😅😀👍
Thanks 😀 👍. Much appreciated. I was hoping it was suitably old. It sounded rather better than expected, though the sheer volume overwhelmed the mic on the camcorder!
I have one of these on a Thorens gramophone I just bought. Mine is marked Exposicion, as is the case that it’s on. It has the same little anchor markings that your Sonata one has. I just made a video using that Thorens gramophone.
Interesting. I've just watched your video, too 😀. This style of soundbox is quite late for an external horn gramophone, so your one might be a later replacement of an earlier Thorens soundbox. Alternatively it may just be a late horn gramophone. You certainly have a very nice looking machine! I have tried my Sonata on my horn gramophone here: ruclips.net/video/1i1zss2_8cw/видео.htmlsi=ZyQmNZwXFomX1oyQ Thanks 😀👍
@@thegregolarecordsclub6564 Yes, the diaphragm screw on the fake I think must have been glued. I've also noticed that the screw won't screw back into the broken part, so maybe it was just held in with glue 🤔. Thanks 😀👍
The big problem with the fake is the needle bar directly connects to the reproducer body, it allows very limited vibration. By using no springs or push pins it just screams record carver.
Yes, though surprisingly the Sonata is very much the same in that respect. There is probably a little more flexibility in the original Thorens design, but essentially the needle bar is just screwed to the internal casting. No springs or anything. Thanks 😀 👍
Yes, I was expecting some very clever little pivot mounted inside. Although I didn't take the Sonata's needle bar to pieces completely, there was no sign of any sort of conventional pivot mechanism. It seems Thorens did make other similar ones, which indeed may be better in that respect. Thanks 😀 👍
Those soundboxes look similar to the later version of the Rexonola Autophonic. It probably is the same apart from the cover as Rexonola used swiss-made reproducers, tone arms and motors.
Quite possibly. Thorens seem to have had a large and ever changing catalogue of parts to suit all price ranges and its likely their stuff appears under other names too. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff I have a gramophone with an earlier Thorens concert soundbox with a mica diaphragm, marked with the Thorens anchor but branded Harmonola. I've seen the same or similar soundboxes on other locally made gramophones, with just the paper label with the brand name differing.
The Sonata is the only one I have with the Thorens logo on it. I did rebuild thisborherbone which looked a bit Thorens like, but I suspect mat not be made by them: ruclips.net/video/IkCCI8Vvisk/видео.html Thanks 😀 👍
Possibly 🤔. It certainly seems to have been left out of the fake as presumably it doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant the cost. I think a lot of soundboxes back in the day were largely copied from other designs, and very few companies invested much effort in figuring out what really worked and what parts of the design were really important. Thanks 😀 👍
One question: When you load the spring of the gramophone, yours sounds crick crick crick…? In my case, if I put grease on the spring actuator it does not sound crick crick crick when load, but if I put sewing machine oil, then it souds loud the crick crick crick. Which is the normal sound of this part?
I think if grease makes it quieter, then I would stick with that. I have not properly serviced my fake machine, so it probably sounds worse than it could. If your motor has a non return spring, it is apparently best not to oil or grease that, as it could cause slippage as it will not grip the winding shaft as tightly. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff Maybe you do not understand me. I mean the movement of the crank. Please, could you upload a video of the crank of your gramophone? I do not know if one of your videos show this. Thanks
I take it, the Fake machines were not meant too be repaired? Interesting how they used cardboard for the gaskets. Thanks for the video, really informative.
Yes, they are really just decoration pieces which have moving parts. They are not really intended to be used for playing records and from what I have seen, many people who own them only have the 1 record that was supplied with it. Having said that, the soundbox is a Sonata clone, and the motors are clones of Garrard or Thorens motors so they are built like real gramophones, just not to great quality. I doubt the cardboard is very effective as the gasket, but the ones on the Sonata don't seem any better. Thanks 😀 👍
You could probably put some rubber tubing over the tonearm to make the real soundbox fit better. Tape would work too, but don't use this on a tonearm which is plated, as it will probably lift the plating off! 😲. Thanks 😀 👍
I’m a recent owner of an Amphion gramophone. While it cranks up and runs well, the sound can be unbearable at times; ear-piercing highs. My quick research leads me to believe the soundbox/reproducer is the culprit. The rubber gasket is rock hard, but the rest seems to be in good shape. It’s an Oro-Phone soundbox that appears to be riveted, and therefore not serviceable. Before I hunt and purchase a replacement, are soundboxes universal in their fit onto the tone arm? Or must I get a specific one for the make and model of the gramophone?
Interesting to hear about your machine. It's not a make I have seen. The fittings on soundboxes, although not universal do tend to fall into a small selection of types. Its occurred to me that this would be a good subject for a video which I will try to do shortly, however the basics are: HMV/Victor style which has a hole on the back of the soundbox about 17.5mm in inside diameter and a pin on the inside at about the 1 o'clock position when looked from the rear. Common soundboxes like the Exhibition, No.2, No.4 are like this. The tonearm has an L shaped slot for the pin to run in. 3/4" (19mm) outside diameter tube without pin. This is an older style of fitting and the end of the tonearm is sometimes slightly sprung to keep it in place. This style can also be found with a pin on the outside in which case there will be a slot in the tonearm. Unless your one is a manufacturer's special it is likely to be one of the 2 types I mention. Most smaller firms (in my experience in the UK) used one or other There are some notable exceptions such as Columbia machines and the HMV 102 Hope that helps
@@mrrgstuff Thank you so much for the reply. Perhaps I’ll put together a quick video and link it here to show the machine and setup. I can’t seem to find much information on it; plus I’m sure there were several owners before me who may have made changes.
@@mrrgstuff I’m not sure of RUclips’s rules on posting links, but if it doesn’t show here, the video will be on my profile/channel. It’s my one and only video, so shouldn’t be hard to find. ruclips.net/video/kwKJ6W5anLo/видео.html
Thanks for this :) I've had the fake ones apart before and thought them to be crap but didn't realise the sonata was so similar! This was recommended to me after I uploaded that fake mixing video ruclips.net/video/f6H7qFHTN7s/видео.html
Yes, the Sonata is a bit disappointing and I wonder why it was chosen for these fakes, but maybe the ring cardboard gaskets are cheaper and simpler to do than tube ones. I did fix it here: ruclips.net/video/jy2QNOyxgoY/видео.html and I have also had a go various other parts including the wonky platter: ruclips.net/video/a_echDb_Hdg/видео.html Glad you enjoyed the video. I thought your fake one sounded pretty good too, though not as good as your Decca. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks 😀 👍. I've done a few other videos on these too and just put them in a playlist for convenience: ruclips.net/p/PLsCYUbO6xxnSQxENr28Cg05DiRuC5O47w
I don't have a complete external horn machine, though you may notice at the end of the video I have a rusty vintage horn from one. I do have a collection of vintage gramophones though, and about 40 soundboxes of various types. I find the fake gramophones interesting to experiment with. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks for the mention! Was really interested in the suspension/pivot of the needle bar, as I thought they were leaving transmission of the soundwaves wholly to chance. As long as the metal of the suspension (both on the fake & on the sonata) I'd expect a reasonable degree of compliance. My pet hate is uncompliant suapension/diaphragms. Due to the suppression of unwanted resonances, the listener is lulled into believing the soundbox is ok, whilst the grooves are being damaged, especially in the louder parts. Sometimes this is even visible on records that have suffered this fate.
I thought the Sonata would have some sort of pivot, but it seems to be relying on the inherent flexibility of the small strip of metal which is bolted to the inner casting. If I can think of a way to improve the fake I may do so. It probably needs new gaskets too, but that I think I can do. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks again for this highly detailed comparison. The 'sort of' torsion spring in the stylus bar pivot is just like my recently bought fake, horn bracket looks like the same casting as mine. Date of record is spot on for the external horn era, being 2nd July 1912. Remained in the catalogue till May 1926.
Thanks 😀 👍. I think it is interesting to see how these fakes have developed from genuine machines 🤔
Very interesting. I can’t think the screws straight through the diaphragm would have helped much! Your Peerless Orchestra record is from 1912.
Thanks 😀 👍. Yes it doesn't seem to be that great a design of soundbox. The Sonata is probably a little better, but I would have thought it would have been just as easy to copy a better design 🤔
@@mrrgstuff i agree absolutely. There is some degree of skill that the Indian guys use to put these together. I’ve never understood why they don’t produce something better. If not a whole machine, there could be all sorts of parts they could produce. Must be economics I guess.
Yes, I think if there was actual demand for a working machine, the quality would be better at the factory gate, and there would be importers who would also improve the quality further (for a price). This model works for the Chinese minilathes, but then ultimately they are tools, not decorative pieces like these gramophones. Thanks 😀 👍
The "spider" isn't called a spider -- the ones you've seen attached to Victor Orthophonic reproducer diaphragms is called a spider -- this piece is called a "phase plug". It breaks up certain resonances in the diaphragm vibrations that caused a harshness in the sound.
Thanks 😀 👍 That's good to know
@@mrrgstuff You're welcome! I believe Victor was first to use it with the 2nd gen of Orthophonic reproducers. Great video, I wish there was more stuff focused on reproducer design and repair, so thanks for your content!
Glad you enjoy the videos. I have lots of reproducers to look at, about 40+ now and I will be building new ones from scratch also. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks for the comparison. At one time I had two of the fake gramophones (I knew they were fake when I got them) and one sound box sounded surprisingly fantastic, the other buzzed terribly. I heavily modified one of the gramophones for myself and sold the other one fully informing the buyer that it is not an original antique. The one I sold actually works fine and the good sound box went with. The buzzy box is in my spares somewhere.
I have a couple of these soundboxes too. The one I worked on came with the machine. The other, in a job lot and I don't think I have ever tested it. It is very similar yet different enough to see that it didn't come off the same production line at the same time. Whilst this soundbox seems an odd choice for a horn machine, its construction doesn't require rubber gaskets or mica diaphragm. The way the pivot has been simplified on the fake is interesting and very efficient from a manufacturing point of view, but probably very hard on the records! 😅😀👍
@@mrrgstuff I agree, hence ditching the fake soundbox for a period aftermarket one that has been rebuilt.
Record dates from 1912. Hopes this helps
Thanks 😀 👍. Much appreciated. I was hoping it was suitably old. It sounded rather better than expected, though the sheer volume overwhelmed the mic on the camcorder!
I have one of these on a Thorens gramophone I just bought. Mine is marked Exposicion, as is the case that it’s on. It has the same little anchor markings that your Sonata one has. I just made a video using that Thorens gramophone.
Interesting. I've just watched your video, too 😀. This style of soundbox is quite late for an external horn gramophone, so your one might be a later replacement of an earlier Thorens soundbox. Alternatively it may just be a late horn gramophone. You certainly have a very nice looking machine! I have tried my Sonata on my horn gramophone here: ruclips.net/video/1i1zss2_8cw/видео.htmlsi=ZyQmNZwXFomX1oyQ
Thanks 😀👍
Really decent coverage of both sound boxes here. Will be retaining this info!
Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it. I am filming a repair video for the fake one as I did manage to break it .. 😟
@@mrrgstuff That happens to everyone who even remotely tries to work on this stuff. Rather the fake than the real thing.
@@thegregolarecordsclub6564 Yes, the diaphragm screw on the fake I think must have been glued. I've also noticed that the screw won't screw back into the broken part, so maybe it was just held in with glue 🤔. Thanks 😀👍
Interesting material, thanks for showing us, very informative.
Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it
My job was making phonographs, my name is Guido Claerhout, I live in Belgium? I am an expert in repairing those machines?
The big problem with the fake is the needle bar directly connects to the reproducer body, it allows very limited vibration. By using no springs or push pins it just screams record carver.
Yes, though surprisingly the Sonata is very much the same in that respect. There is probably a little more flexibility in the original Thorens design, but essentially the needle bar is just screwed to the internal casting. No springs or anything. Thanks 😀 👍
Am surprised the Sonata is not really any better than the replica. I seem to recall spying a heavier looking Sonata style box on the net.
Yes, I was expecting some very clever little pivot mounted inside. Although I didn't take the Sonata's needle bar to pieces completely, there was no sign of any sort of conventional pivot mechanism. It seems Thorens did make other similar ones, which indeed may be better in that respect. Thanks 😀 👍
Those soundboxes look similar to the later version of the Rexonola Autophonic. It probably is the same apart from the cover as Rexonola used swiss-made reproducers, tone arms and motors.
Quite possibly. Thorens seem to have had a large and ever changing catalogue of parts to suit all price ranges and its likely their stuff appears under other names too. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff I have a gramophone with an earlier Thorens concert soundbox with a mica diaphragm, marked with the Thorens anchor but branded Harmonola. I've seen the same or similar soundboxes on other locally made gramophones, with just the paper label with the brand name differing.
The Sonata is the only one I have with the Thorens logo on it. I did rebuild thisborherbone which looked a bit Thorens like, but I suspect mat not be made by them:
ruclips.net/video/IkCCI8Vvisk/видео.html
Thanks 😀 👍
I believe the spider in the Sonata is to keep fingers out.
Possibly 🤔. It certainly seems to have been left out of the fake as presumably it doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant the cost. I think a lot of soundboxes back in the day were largely copied from other designs, and very few companies invested much effort in figuring out what really worked and what parts of the design were really important. Thanks 😀 👍
One question: When you load the spring of the gramophone, yours sounds crick crick crick…? In my case, if I put grease on the spring actuator it does not sound crick crick crick when load, but if I put sewing machine oil, then it souds loud the crick crick crick. Which is the normal sound of this part?
I think if grease makes it quieter, then I would stick with that. I have not properly serviced my fake machine, so it probably sounds worse than it could. If your motor has a non return spring, it is apparently best not to oil or grease that, as it could cause slippage as it will not grip the winding shaft as tightly. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff Maybe you do not understand me. I mean the movement of the crank. Please, could you upload a video of the crank of your gramophone? I do not know if one of your videos show this. Thanks
I take it, the Fake machines were not meant too be repaired? Interesting how they used cardboard for the gaskets. Thanks for the video, really informative.
Yes, they are really just decoration pieces which have moving parts. They are not really intended to be used for playing records and from what I have seen, many people who own them only have the 1 record that was supplied with it. Having said that, the soundbox is a Sonata clone, and the motors are clones of Garrard or Thorens motors so they are built like real gramophones, just not to great quality. I doubt the cardboard is very effective as the gasket, but the ones on the Sonata don't seem any better. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff you’re welcome!
I can’t believe I have an old fake sound box but I have another real one but the only problem is that it’s bigger so it can’t fit.
You could probably put some rubber tubing over the tonearm to make the real soundbox fit better. Tape would work too, but don't use this on a tonearm which is plated, as it will probably lift the plating off! 😲. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff Thank you so much for the advice, I do learn a lot from your videos. And you deserve a sub
Thanks 😀 👍. I really appreciate it! 😀
I’m a recent owner of an Amphion gramophone. While it cranks up and runs well, the sound can be unbearable at times; ear-piercing highs. My quick research leads me to believe the soundbox/reproducer is the culprit. The rubber gasket is rock hard, but the rest seems to be in good shape. It’s an Oro-Phone soundbox that appears to be riveted, and therefore not serviceable. Before I hunt and purchase a replacement, are soundboxes universal in their fit onto the tone arm? Or must I get a specific one for the make and model of the gramophone?
Interesting to hear about your machine. It's not a make I have seen. The fittings on soundboxes, although not universal do tend to fall into a small selection of types. Its occurred to me that this would be a good subject for a video which I will try to do shortly, however the basics are:
HMV/Victor style which has a hole on the back of the soundbox about 17.5mm in inside diameter and a pin on the inside at about the 1 o'clock position when looked from the rear. Common soundboxes like the Exhibition, No.2, No.4 are like this. The tonearm has an L shaped slot for the pin to run in.
3/4" (19mm) outside diameter tube without pin. This is an older style of fitting and the end of the tonearm is sometimes slightly sprung to keep it in place.
This style can also be found with a pin on the outside in which case there will be a slot in the tonearm.
Unless your one is a manufacturer's special it is likely to be one of the 2 types I mention. Most smaller firms (in my experience in the UK) used one or other
There are some notable exceptions such as Columbia machines and the HMV 102
Hope that helps
@@mrrgstuff Thank you so much for the reply. Perhaps I’ll put together a quick video and link it here to show the machine and setup. I can’t seem to find much information on it; plus I’m sure there were several owners before me who may have made changes.
Yes, would be great to see it. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff
I’m not sure of RUclips’s rules on posting links, but if it doesn’t show here, the video will be on my profile/channel. It’s my one and only video, so shouldn’t be hard to find.
ruclips.net/video/kwKJ6W5anLo/видео.html
Glue and cardboard? Sounds about right.
Yes, and recycled cardboard at that! I may be able to make some better gaskets for it. Thanks 😀 👍
Very interesting video again. Thanks for sharing 👍.
Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it. I've had that Sonata soundbox for ages but was saving it for this video 😅
A bit more fixing required 😊😊
Indeed, and I must learn to have the camera running when I break things! 😉😅. Thanks 😀 👍
Thanks for this :) I've had the fake ones apart before and thought them to be crap but didn't realise the sonata was so similar! This was recommended to me after I uploaded that fake mixing video ruclips.net/video/f6H7qFHTN7s/видео.html
Yes, the Sonata is a bit disappointing and I wonder why it was chosen for these fakes, but maybe the ring cardboard gaskets are cheaper and simpler to do than tube ones. I did fix it here: ruclips.net/video/jy2QNOyxgoY/видео.html
and I have also had a go various other parts including the wonky platter: ruclips.net/video/a_echDb_Hdg/видео.html
Glad you enjoyed the video. I thought your fake one sounded pretty good too, though not as good as your Decca. Thanks 😀 👍
@@mrrgstuff I will give them both a look 👍😎
Thanks 😀 👍. I've done a few other videos on these too and just put them in a playlist for convenience: ruclips.net/p/PLsCYUbO6xxnSQxENr28Cg05DiRuC5O47w
The fake horn gramophones are trash.. are you have a original?
I don't have a complete external horn machine, though you may notice at the end of the video I have a rusty vintage horn from one. I do have a collection of vintage gramophones though, and about 40 soundboxes of various types. I find the fake gramophones interesting to experiment with. Thanks 😀 👍
i choose the right one thats fake and left one is real
The one on the right is the real one. Thanks 😀 👍
oh.