The Most Fascinating (and AWFUL) Class in an FPS
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- The Spy from Team Fortress 2 has one of the most unique playstyles I've seen in a multiplayer shooter. But he's also kinda... bad? Watch my video.
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I sincerely apologize for my Spy gameplay in this video. I hope you all can forgive me for missing as many backstabs as I did.
EDIT: This video seems to be doing pretty well, hello all you new people!
I should probably start off by saying I'm NOT a RUclipsr dedicated to TF2. Though I am a big fan of the game, so it's likely I'll make another video on it down the line. In fact, MY NEXT VIDEO is on TF2. It features me going around some of TF2's maps and talking about why I think they're so special. I hope you all like that one, should be coming out this week, mayyybbeeee early next week.
Butterknife or Failstabs are unavoidable, any Spy good or bad will experience them a lot, not every situation would grant you instant kill, anyways you've pointed out some things I have also thought about spy, and the video is done well, I respect that
it's ok ;D
git gud lol
@@stockimageguy8941 >:( that's bulling :trollface:
as a spy main (3500 hours) I suck too, but this video does remind me that I was this bad once. Honestly, if you played any better, people would start to think you were a weeb 😂
but for real though, the gameplay wasn't too bad and is to be expected for a new spy. Good video
When playing spy if your opponent has enough time to think “is that a spy?” Then you have been out in the open too long
Fr i only decloack when im sure Nobody sees me and have found my Prey
This is why I abuse the cloak and dagger to nab a quick kill and then dive for cover
if you’re in a situation like that, it might be a good time to use Acting™️ to make the enemy team not know you’re there. - a y.e.r. spy
@@lisatroiani6119your eternal win?
@@This-is-not-K oops, didn’t catch that, thanks for pointing it out lol
I heard somewhere that Spy is shockingly effective at the highest levels of non-highlander play because no-one is expecting anyone to play Spy at that level but with the caveat that you only get to make ONE play as Spy before everyone cottons on and that's time your team is missing a second Scout or Soldier. High risk but it could be the game winning play.
That’s when you target the medic.
It’s the perfect ambush. Spy kills the medic and dies, then the spies teammates launch an Uber offensive and wipe the enemy team.
most effective thing spy can do in high level play is to inform their team mates.
use the cloak and dagger and just tell your team what's going on as a lot of classes don't even need to be fought when you just know where they are.
tell your team where the enemy sniper is and they're unlikely to get head shot.
tell your team where the sentry is and your scouts won't run into them.
tell your team when the engineer is leaving his sentry alone so they can uber push at the right moment.
only medic and spy can see enemy health, so relay that info to your team mates, imagine the power of a sniper when he knows whether or not a body shot will kill.
you see the enemy scout taking a flank route? don't try to fight him, just tell your team where he's coming from.
tell them when you see enemy heavy spin his minigun down.
In highlander, the spy isn't really able to make his own picks; instead, he acts as an *actual scout* at the start of the round, checking out people's loadouts and calling when the demoman should set off his stickytrap or when the team should push or whatever, and he makes his own picks in coordination with his team once a push has everyone distracted and not watching their backs.
@@technoturnovers7072 exactly. Even if the only damage spy does is to put a zapper on a sentry at the right time, not even by destroying it but by just disabling it when his team pushes, spy with communication is busted.
@@windhelmguard5295 i remember seeing a single revolver shot deciding the first team fight
Guy shot the medic and did ~20 damage which made him pop and focus backwards.... Right before his pocket solly got HS'd
spy is my favourite class, and i think the most important tip is timing.
you should act when the enemy is distracted, because obviously if someone isn’t doing anything they’ll check their back often and be suspicious. but if they’re in a fight and looking at something very important, thats when you should act. even the best players likely wont just turn around randomly when they’re in an intense fight.
good video btw
Thank you.
While I did talk about how highly skilled players are pretty good at spy checking, they can't have spies on their mind 100% of the time. That's a good point. Everyone makes mistakes. In that way, I guess the Spy can be effective at higher skill levels. Maybe just not as effective as they were at lower levels where players get distracted by everything lol
@@PretzelYT Yeah I am sad you didn't mention that.
You yourself even abused this in 8:54 where you backstabbed a distracted pyro.
And the Cloak n Dagger is made to support that style of picking off an engaged team.
Spy still can be really good as a pick class of preventing the medic from triggering uber (also surprised this wasn't as emphasised since medic can win games), but yeah even on higher levels, communication can still dampen spy's plan to a certain degree.
Also yeah, if you want to go for chain stabs... well the big earner exists XD
And that the other items can really help spy.
@@PretzelYT as a Heavy main even in active combat you can still hear the decloak sound even if it's surrounded by other noises you CAN still hear it if you're good enough but that just leaves you with two choices 1. Ignore the spy and die to a backstab or
2. Kill the spy and get killed by his teammates
You have to really get good at spy checking if you wanna play Heavy for an extensive amount of time
As a heavy main, while we’re laying down covering fire and pushing are the times we are most vulnerable, we just think about what’s forward.
yes, and after some time you dont even think about when to strike like you dont think when to stab
Been playing Spy since release, and it's been such a ridiculous change from the early days.
Early-day Spy could literally decloak behind enemies whose necks he was breathing down and not be noticed - I've got old videos doing just that. These days if you decloak in the same post-code as an enemy who isn't actively shooting, you're stuffed.
And that's a big part of it honestly; old spy used to be able to pick off enemies returning to the front lines - but these days he thrives mostly in furious firefights where he's pouncing on actively distracted enemies before vanishing.
This is an issue not always talked about in most competitive (or even pve games):
Skill floors grow over time. The barrier of entry to playing with the average player increases as the community grows.
It's one thing playing Quake with people who also just picked up the game on release last century; it's another deal to try and get into a server full of people who played 20 years or more at this point.
The same applies to TF2. Over time and as the community grew, nearly everyone barring new players has got much better at the game. From knowing technical details about mechanics to ingraining automatisms about turning your back every half a second into your brain or learning there's no counterplay to randomly shooting all allies, Spy has way fewer chances against the average player now than he did back in 2007.
The bad part about this is that it doesn't only alienate people who don't main spy, it also bleeds over into preventing new people from getting into the game. If you don't have a leveled playing field to learn and develop, and you dont set your mind to torture yourself overcoming the horrible grind of playing against people magnitudes better than you, you just wont play.
There's no easy solution to this, unfortunately. Bots can only help out so much, and you can't always find pub games full of Fernando.Gonzales2007's to learn the basics or practice. And I don't think the devs would know either if they tried helping out...
Beautifully said.
I wonder if the bot crisis has affected new players. Because more experienced players, they were either never playing on casual servers or just moved to community servers once it got too bad there. But newer players won't know to check community servers. So they'll just launch into casual and get stomped on by bots.
2fort and casual exist
See it's sorta weird to me because in my eyes the experience today isn't so different from when I joined a million years ago. I remember younger me getting absolutely stomped even back when the game was fresh and new by people with experience in other games, and working through the pain of dying almost instantly always until I was a significantly better player. This part of the experience has always been part of tf2 to me, and something I've both warned and excitedly told friends new to the game about. If struggling to be good as you approach the skill ceiling is something that turns you off tf2, I don't really know how you ever could have gotten into tf2 in the first place, even back then.
I feel like with most classes, there’s a pretty linear curve between skill of the enemy and how difficult it is to play against them. But with spy it’s basically a vertical line. Once the enemy player is above a certain threshold of skill, you’re pretty much screwed
Most of my spy gemplay it's getting 1 kill and dying instantly (sometimes I can't even get kills). It really depends how good is enemy team because they can make your life living hell. Despite spy being my most played class I'm really weak compared to other classes
If the player is too good to kill with a backstab, play gun spy with your team. Revolver does like 30+damage close to mid range
unless you can trickstab well
@@Lynxdeer Good players don't fall for them very often
Top level highlander spy players are quite interesting to watch though, sometimes there's matches where the spy manages to get a load of important picks somehow without dying instantly after & it's always hype to see
the best use for spy in comp is to gather information for his team. backstabs are reserved for the most important classes, like medic, demo and sniper, because in a comp environment a backstab will mostly end with the spy dying
This is why I think having spy watches give enemies an outline your team can see would improve him a lot. Imagine if while invisible, all nearby enemies had the "friendly intel carrier" outline, even showing their color coded health level to your teammates. Spy would be an amazing asset and allow him to do one of his jobs even better.
@@masterofthecontinuum I think this will just make cheaters more free but also make false votekicks even more common
I wouldnt have him any other way. If spy was on equal footing to the other classes you'd be a paranoid wreck. Issue is you playing him how intended, disguise & backstab rather than the obnoxious dead ringer & kunai combo
Yeah, maybe I should have talked about the other playstyles. Though I was mostly interested in how he was designed from the get-go, rather than looking at how his weapons change his playstyle.
Good point though.
The one spy I fear the most is a confident Stock revolver gun spy with the dead ringer. I’ve played the class that way and I’ve done more well that I’d like to admit, top scoring and maybe even top fragging occasionally. But when fighting them it’s as if they have no weaknesses, able to kill pyros as if they’re just another average class, faking their deaths to get speed or to get out of sticky situations, and almost never backing down from a fight only to 3-4 tap you faster then you could process your health going down. The one way they go down the most too is pocketed people, especially vac medica. But even then they could just play spy as intended and somehow backstab you in someway. That’s my true fear when facing against the class 👀💦
Its not obnoxious though, its like saying using Default sticky and Iron bomber is "Obnoxious" (Pre hitbox change I guess), it isn't, its the best loadout to deal with the community now, everyone knows Spy now, the disguise menu is pretty obsolete (Its still really useful but not for its intended purposes) and everyone knows how to chase down invis spies now. Now please don't get me wrong, you can still dominate with Invis and default knife, but the Kunai Ringer adds a very quick and fast paces playstyle and works perfectly for trickstabbing if you've put the hours in to get good at it, because it rewards you chaining kills, the Ringer can be obnoxious but tbh its so easy to counter now, I play Soldier and Demo a lot and its so easy to avoid getting stabbed by them and knowing where their going and if they ringered. He's a weak class and people still complain about a combo that is only broken if you're actually a really good spy. Ofc u can sit and wait for ringer to charge every single time, that is obnoxious I agree, thats a scum move imo.
Facts, even though he is the weakest class in the game that doesn't mean he's a bad class, far from it
@@Liger_Soba yeah that's my favourite way to play spy, revolver or sometimes amby, and use the dead ringer as often as I can and I hardly die. I'm not super effective though.
In Highlander one of spy's best uses is a spy. Telling your team what the enemy team is doing. Knowing that the enemy is starting a push or retreating is very useful.
As a spy main... Kinda, I'm bad, I really get when spy shines, my problem is actually finding those moments myself. You really need to get into peoples brains and think "What is that heavy focused on right now and would he be thinking about turning around?" My best advice is pay extremem attention to noise sources, a shooting heavy can't hear spies decloack very well.
I think the fact I was able to get enough footage in 2 games to be able to sync my deaths to the song "mr blue sky" and STILL have leftover footage I couldn't fit into the video really shows just how damn hard spy is
I’mma gonna need to watch that.
Comparing the 2007 TF2 to 2022 TF2, there is too many wide areas on latest maps compared to Dustbowl for example, a Spy could easily just go behind the advancing team and blend in because the map's pretty narrow and that many of the players just played casually.
That's interesting, I usually consider maps like 2fort and Dustbowl to be harder as spy. There's less room to walk around people and you bump into them a lot more.
But it also does kinda funnel them into smaller spaces, so everyone blends together a little bit more.
Thanks for your perspective, haven't really thought of it that way before.
interesting, from my experience spy sucks on chokey maps (i.e. dustbowl)
@@_mono_01 because the average skill level of a tf2 player is different today compared to when it just released
I think spy being kinda bad really adds to them though. If spy is bad, less of them will exist. If less exist, enemies will be less prepared to deal with them. Less prepared enemies = easier backstabs. Simple by being bad, your actually increasing the chance you get away with being a spy, as people aren't normally expecting bad things
Spy is both the most addicting and most painful class you can play in TF2. One day you're trickstabbing people like it's your average Tuesday, the next you can't even decloak for even a second because the enemy team has eyes in the back of their heads.
spy would be better if there was more encouragement to play as intended, by using disguises and cloaking, rather than the meta of abusing the crappy hitboxes. some things that I think could improve the class could be:
1) fixing the hitboxes to be tilted to the side to match the direction that the actual models face
2) the ability to use animations like scoping in with sniper and using taunts while disguised by default to further convince players that he isn't a spy
3) a revolver that sacrifices all damage for the ability to shoot your disguise's weapon while disguised to further convince players that he isn't a spy
4) a watch that makes him have no collision with players and/or become invincible for a short time to counter spy checking, but removes cloak completely and stops him from attacking during this time
5) a watch that uncloaks faster, but lasts a lot shorter, cloaking takes longer and/or is louder, and decreases melee swing speed, sacrificing chain stabs for the ability to take out one target easier
but since valve doesn't care about tf2 that much I doubt they'd change anything so idk
Here is the thing about the tilted hit boxes.... If you get stabbed in the back to the left slightly, its going to look like a full on face stab. Every single time. It's tied to the viewport for a reason.
This video made me appreciate the concept of the Spy class a lot more. It's basically a stealth game but done correctly since you're not playing against AI.
Now I'd have an easier time respecting spy mains if half of them werent smug weebs with trickstab rage compilations on RUclips.
In Highlander spy thrives in perfecting his timing and basically acts as a pick class in the exact role he gets one important kill then dies. But sometimes he kinda pops off and gets like 2 or 3 people and or gets away. It takes a lot of luck in casual but if you can find a rithem and act as sparaticaly as you can, you can go crazy
Great class,bad balance.
and it's weird cuz the smallest buff can make spy go from under powered to over powered its just like trying to get warm water in the shower it's impossible
horrible class, most of his disguises are useless except like 1 or 2 and his revovler sucks for no reason.
@@ghostface5559 get gud :)
@@ghostface5559good point on the classes. You should only use 3 classes. Medic, scout, spy, those classes are the fastest moving disguised anything else is a disadvantage
@@Evil_Pixl don't disguise as scout, you'll get found out instantly
@@SamuelTrademarked it’s more obvious but it also has a smaller hit box. Not the best disguise
The issue with Spy is that you are reliant on what the enemy team is doing. Spy has to play mind games with the enemy in order to succeed.
You have to constantly ask yourself questions:
Would the class I’m disguised as stand here?
How aware of me are the enemy?
Am I being too predictable? Is the enemy too unpredictable?
All of this on top of the questions all the other classes ask themselves, like who’s the most important to kill? Or where’s their tele?
All i can really say is this: play as if being seen means you die
You should know every ammo spot on almost every map you play as an engie, use that. If you're still uncomfortable about your cloak, i suggest going letranger/c&d to extend your ability to stay in the "prevent detection" layer as this layer is your most express advantage followed by "prevent lock".
DR and trickstabs are both in the next inward layers, decoy and destroy respectively. These are both low-reliability options and should be avoided unless you are highly skilled or fighting inexperienced opponents.
After locked (detected as a spy), the spy is at a massive disadvantage at all stages of the onion and should seek to disengage or damage the enemy if disengaging is impossible.
I almost forgot, this is applying the integrated survivability onion to spy gameplay.
You are about as vulnerable as a tank in a field filled with people who all got javelins so it makes sense.
I never see spies changing weapons while in a disguise to make them more believable and they always disguise as scouts and they always go behind enemies
That's something I always try to do as Spy. I feel like its not taught very well (if at all) that you can change your disguise's weapon. It's extremely obvious if you're a Demo running towards the front line holding your bottle.
And abuse crappy hit boxes
I feel like you just don't have enough experience with the class. The key is to join the enemy team in firefights with your disguise. When they're distracted with the enemy team, then you stab them while they're not able to Spy check. I personally use the Your Eternal Reward, which helps stealth tremendously since you instantly disguise on backstab and it makes no sound or ragdoll, but other knives are good for different situations as well. Uncloak behind walls or obstacles or while there's a lot of noise in order to hide your cloak sound. Make sure to use your revolver, and don't forget there are other invis watches that can be used in different ways to trick the team (The Deadringer is especially useful when the enemy team is being very aggressive and it's hard to get behind them). Your revolver is also incredibly powerful, with good aim you can deal a lot of damage with only it. It's especially useful for picking low players off since you can see how much health enemy players have, and it can also be really good for getting kills from the front lines with your team if the enemy team is proving hard to get past. Also, be sure to use a variety of disguises instead of just one. I see too many Spies who just disguise as one class for an entire round, and it becomes painfully obvious who is the Spy when they're always the same class.
As a guy that's played platinum division spy in UGC for a few years and has put in more hours than I care to admit into the game, Spy is absolutely the weakest class, but there are some things people forget.
One: The Revolver exists, and is way better than people realize. With it, you can somewhat reliably three tap Scout, Engineers, Snipers, Spies and, with damage ramp up, Medics, Pyros and Demomen.
Two: You need to coordinate with your team in a comp setting. You have a unique circumstance where you can see uber charge on the enemy team, where they're setting up, how they're positioned, sentry locations. You should be on coms almost as much as your medic.
Three: It's true disguises kind of suck, but the odd one or two can fool even good players. Something like a soldier disguise can make people turn off their brain due to the movement reduction and the fact a roaming soldier can be almost anywhere reasonably.
Four: Spy is typically a Hail Mary pick class in the sense that you're supposed to kill the Medic, Sniper or Demo, full stop mission objective. Dying is part of it typically unless you get lucky or run something like Kunai. Now you can argue Sniper does that job but better via quickscopes, but I think that has to do more with Sniper being too oppressive over Spy being too weak.
Lastly: Pyros can be a problem, but a problem has solutions. If he's sticking near the combo, you can take out snipers and teleporters. It's all about always being a huge pain in the ass for the team to deal with and poking them where they're not working together. You're not going to get kills like your demo or heavy, but you will be able to help make the job way easier for them by getting a key pick right before/during a push.
Honestly, when it comes to changes, I think the biggest quality of life change would be for the revolver's spread to be slightly tightened, and some button to let you move at spy speed while disguised as a heavier class, in order to increase disguise options. Maybe a readjustment to Ambassador to where stock Revolver doesn't outshine it at every distance save like one, otherwise, I can't think of a way to tweak him without him becoming a nightmare for new players.
Thank you for your perspective, I appreciate hearing from someone who's played a lot in that environment. It's just so vastly different from the 12v12 format, I can barely imagine what it's like playing Highlander or 6v6
Wait, I play tf2c, that is EXACTLY an option (normal spy speed)
I always found Spy fascinating because his class can be affected even more by your opponent's skill than your own (or more so than other classes). That's why I never liked playing him, because he never felt like he could get consistent results. You either had babies that lack situational awareness (like me) or veterans than can often see through your tricks, or just remember to randomly shoot teammates and ruin your play. He's almost on a cooldown, you get one or two kills, then move off him entirely until your enemy thinks the Spy has changed class before striking again. And he doesn't really get any form of subclass or alternate methods, not even gun spy since most of his revolvers kind of suck....but why, say, get Ambassador headshots when you can just play Sniper? A stealth class isn't a bad idea, it just needed more work.
No one has ever so accurately described my spy experience as a whole.
I'm gonna be real, one of the main reasons I don't play Spy is because to me, playing Spy feels anxiety inducing, like the tension that at any moment you could be found out and have to escape.
That's why i adopted the "gun spy" playstyle, when you do crip damage they start treating you like a force of nature scout and leave the area, thats when you can start stabbin' same idea applys to demo, you expect them to have a boundary so they spam stickys but you never expect the same demo charging at you and taking your head
Arguably, the greatest tool in a spy’s arsenal, and also his greatest weakness, is the microphone.
A good spy with a cooperative team can call for a push to distract the enemy as he moves in to shiv some poor German doctor’s kidneys. But once spotted, a team can be alerted when there’s some Frenchman looking to cause a little mischief.
Also, barely related side note:
if you’re “chilling” as engineer, either you aren’t paranoid like me, or you’re engineering defensively. Nothing wrong with that, that’s how he’s supposed to be played.
But you haven’t truly engineered until you’ve done “frontier engineering” (said frontier being “oh no, this is the enemy’s spawn area”). Admittedly, not my finest moments...
to quote Funke, anything spy can do sniper does better. If you want to play a pick class and get key kills, play sniper. If you want to get into the enemies head and make them question whether or not there is still a spy, play spy.
There's a lot more to playing as the Spy. If you have a team looking for you out of paranoia, then you're doing your job. Your objective is to keep them focused on you rather than their intended target or whatever they're defending. The moment they stop, you punish them for it with backstabbing, sapping, or even using your gun. The trick though is to not get greedy or overconfident when you don't need to be.
there’s also cl_interp which buffs spy for the low low price of losing all respect
somewhat not really, i learned how to face stab using that trick but i get it way more consistent using a lower value as i would use normally
If you noob as spy or unlucky with him, do not tell everyone spy is awfull. Maybe you just need practice.
This is a very roundabout way of making me play amongus again
A lot of these issues can be solved by getting good at the revolver and not second guessing it as a reliable midranged weapon and a great backup tool. You only need 1 shot's worth of a time advantage to win against most classes except the very high health ones (and Spy is terrible at dealing with soldiers either through stabs or gunshots, so any good spy will avoid them in open areas where they're unpredictable). And Pyros literally can't do anything about a spy that's shooting people well out of their range. There's a reason the loading tips tell you to use the revolver for Pyros or other hard to deal with players, after all.
They made the conscious decision to give Spy a capable gun rather than the tranquilizer gun, which in my mind makes me think they wanted to give him the ability to be a decent help in a gunfight. Not as damaging as the other classes but far more reliable at dealing low to medium amounts of damage at further, safer ranges. That gets you a lot more kills than you would expect
Tl;dr revolver good
Great point. I'm always focused on going for the FLASHY backstab, but it's easy to forget about the revolver. I did include at least one clip of me using it, but it's something I do forget about a lot.
@@PretzelYT Yeah. Because I rely on it a lot I end up running pure stock almost all of the time, the l'etranger's damage penalty makes it harder to deal with anything other than light classes. But after 10,000 stock revolver kills and in many different loadouts, it's just so reliable once you learn how to aim it, and it's hilarious how often you can kill someone with less than 42 across the map in a couple of lucky shots.
And like I said, there's really nothing a Pyro can do about a spy using it. You're faster than the pyro if he's using his weapons, and if he pulls out the powerjack he'll potentially enter the 3-shotting threshold that normally you're outside of in order to avoid the flamethrower. Much easier than hoping he falls to a trickstab and that you also don't die to afterburn afterwards. And if they're using the shotgun, you're already well outside of meatshot range, so these just kind of naturally compliment the weapon and the class. Plus you feel like a cowboy the whole time which is a big plus
although i dont play spy competitively, i do play medic competitively in both formats! spy is truly a lovely class, in comp, hes meant to serve as your insight to the enemy team, he is constantly comming where their sniper is, their combo, are they about to push, etc. coordinating a sap with your spy as you're about to push in is so exhilarating, along with your spy getting that sexy pick because their medic didnt spycheck right before they use uber, thats the most beautiful part of spy. using good opportunities to go in for stabs is super important, along with knowing when to switch over to your gun too!
tldr i love comp spy. theyre silly and i like listening to them talk
I remember thinking about that at some point while I was writing this, how Spy is useful for just getting information. Wish I would have talked about that more, it's a pretty useful aspect of his class at higher skill levels.
@@PretzelYT its all good!!! thank you for your response, and honestly. if you ever wanna make an update to this video, go ham and ask some comp players for help!! maybe even some interviews would be cool! :D
I think spy could do with more gadgets at his disposal.
These could include:
• poison/hallucinogens which can contaminate health kits
• decoys of himself and his teammates
• a timed explosive as an unlockable for the sapper slot
• a cloakwatch which negates his revolver's spread instead of granting him invisibility
• a suppressed handgun for his revolver slot.
Until you noticed the spy knows how to use a *G U N*
Especially if the gun in question is the Ambassador, L’Étranger or crit-boosted Diamondback.
@Aquarium Gravel Revolver does have the advantage to finish off low HP enemies, especially since Spy have the ability to read the enemy’s HP by pointing at them. You can combine that with Diamondback’s guaranteed crits stored as it deals 102 damage per shot, finishing off an injured Sniper, for example.
Only go for backstab if the enemy is unaware and is at high HP, and / or if you’re good at trickstabbing and stairstabbing.
Once herd from a spy main
"Playing spy isnt only about getting back stab, you play psychological warfare with your chosen victim"
When I play spy all the heavies get spy-dey senses and spray me down
“Presumably functioning brains” I love that line
Hey there! As a comp spy player myself, comp spy vs casual spy is a super different experience. In comp, spy's support role comes far more into play since you can communicate with teammates to call out enemy rotations, positions, etc. With proper coordination, spy can be super terrifying, getting super important kills. However, on his own in a comp setting, if you try to make plays like you do in a casual server, you will typically get punished for it. Spy is much more of a sit back and play the backlines class in comp, who can be a disruptor when used correctly. I will say in casual, the chaos makes it far easier for massive chainstabs and cool flashy plays though.
Edit: He is still by far the weakest class regardless of setting, but in terms of "buffing" him, honestly for pubs removing spawn wallhacks would be HUGE. Otherwise, I think he is fine as is.
Oh
@@FIVEBASKET Got any questions? More than willing to answer any.
how do you utilize the dead ringer? for example, you pop it, run straight to the enemy backline, what would you do if they dont believe your disguise and since dead ringer take like 5 years to charge, how can you escape the sistuation?
@@catastrophist5010 From my own experience, I use the dead ringer in 2 main ways: Situation one: On a KOTH map, I use it to get behind enemy lines, I do not care if I get killed, I just want to get behind them. If you die afterwards, sometimes it just can't be helped. Situation 2: I use it as I am about to die, if I have ~40 health, ill use it to escape to a pack / out of the fight. IMO, better to use the DR as an escape tool rather than a speed boost to get behind enemies. I would also say use the L'Etranger to build up boost quicker + Big Earner for max efficency.
It's pretty clear many ppl haven't played against ppl who have 10k hours on spy
These guys r insane, using ambassador to headshot u and spycicle and deadringers to get away from even pyros
Yeah it’s pretty obvious with these comments. People don’t realize that spy takes a lot more time to get good at. If you have 200 hours as pyro you’re pretty close to the top of the skill ceiling where as spy is thousands of hours
Spy as a character is the only class in the game that is almost completely reliant on teammates for value (this also applies to Medic, but that’s excusable because his entire point is to be weak on his own, but very strong when supporting allies)
He relies on teammates distracting enemies so he has a chance to make a play. For example, when fighting something like a sentry nest or a Heavy/Medic combo, a Spy can communicate to his team to fake a push and create noise to distract that setup for a brief moment, which can be all the time he needs to take out said setup in one fell swoop. This is done plenty in high levels of play, so it’s by all means viable.
Of course, this strategy is reliant on having competent teammates that can act on callouts, which is far from a guarantee in any team-based game. You also have to consider that classes like Sniper and Demoman often do these jobs from Spy just as effectively as him, while also not relying on team support nearly as much as him.
Overall, Spy can work, but he’s not only much more difficult but also much less independent than the other classes.
Spy is so powerful that he could make enemy team shiver when they realize spy exist on your team.
a decent idea is disguising as your own engineer that way you could lay off heat from your own
The best way to play Spy effectively is to make losing scenarios for the enemy.
It doesn't matter if the enemy knows you're a Spy when hunting you down means dying to your teammates anyway.
**forgets to replace the hl2 ragdoll sounds with tf2 ragdoll sounds** 0:04
😢
7:26 you’re edging us you sick bastard
10:27
bignus on their phone : do you ever download music illegally
moo'j : yes
Spy is the class that has to deal with randomness the most. It’s such a delicate game of cat and mouse and any little bit of random spam, sudden unpredictable movement, or person simply turing the corner at the wrong time can just send you straight back to the respawn cabinet. Some situations are just completely unwinnable, the worst is pybros that ruthlessly hunt spies.
First of all I agree with a lot of those things that you mentioned. But as a spy main I think that playing spy is one of if not the HARDEST class to play in tf2. Spy is a very weak class if we think about the fact that it can be killed really easily by ALL of the othet classes…BUT by playing and failing many times you start to gain game sense..you start to understand the movement of the players,you get better at avoiding to bump into enemies,I would even consider saying that u can win a whole round to your teamnates by destroying a sentry nest etc etc… and (for me) it feels so rewarding to make people mad with good kunai dead ringer combo :) oh and after mastering trickstabs you become almost invincible and thats thats the part when I get a dopamine rush through my brain,which is the only thing that keeps me off from leaving this game.
You're kinda overrating spy, he's simply a pick class like sniper that targets medics or other important enemies that could be dangerous for your team. Sniper is much more consistent than spy, but I find spy funnier to play. Also an important tip for your gameplay: stab your enemy when they are busy shooting your allies! you either kill the enemy in front of you and die by the spy or do a 180 and kill the spy but die from the enemy you were fighting. if the enemy has nothing to shoot at THEY WILL turn around and THEY WILL spy check constantly. that's why you should stick near the frontline and not go too deep into enemy territory too often, unless you wanma target their teleporter entrance at spawn or they are truly clueless and don't check as often when walking to the frontlines.
Ok noob, u know nothing about spy, check my channel
The game was balanced around an 18 to 24 player server. I'd like to see some 12s tournaments wit random crits on since we'd be able to differentiate tactics that are enabled by the chaos (lots of visual noise, possibility of triple damage) vs player skill, with a large enough tournament prize to attract the people who normally play highlander (with crits off). Until then, just because something isn't viable in a competitive setting, we don't know if that has anything to do with skill or the fact that the game was not meant to be played on a half empty server. For example the BASE jumper got nerfed into the ground because 6s players couldn't hit a good solider... but in a 12s setting there is a almost always a heavy and scout on the enemy team. Even if you're a good soldier, can you dodge hitscan weapons? Who knows? Valve catered to the competitive scene for that weapon, but the game's classes weren't meant to be in that kind of game.
For some reason the default spy decloak noise doesn't have a cut off so you can quite literally be heard from a mile away
unnerf the dr and ambi valve, spy's the worst class anyway. give me my dollar store sniper rifle back
i was in a casual game as blu on stage 2 of gold rush. there were two engineers with sentries and dispensers, one of them had an unusual hat and the other just had a regular one. the cart was somewhere near the tunnel entrance, and the rest of the players were fighting over there. i had the cloak and dagger equipped, so i found a safe spot and waited. shortly after, a pyro comes out of spawn and joines them - spraying flames around the nest. still with the cloak and dagger, i sat and waited. the pyro didn't leave, so the three were huddled in the corner. for some reason, i was compelled to stay and see if i could take out the nest.
now i get the idea, the three of these players were working together as a team, as as a result they're stronger than the sum of their parts. but i stood there for a over two minutes, where none of us were engaged in the real action that was happening around the cart.
i couldn't help but wonder if they were even having any fun, because i wasn't. i couldn't really blame them for playing this way, because anything less would've probably given me an opportunity to get a backstab. the real issue is that there are spies in the game that force these behaviours out of people that aren't really fun. i hate playing against heavies that constantly CONSTANTLY turn around, or snipers that seem to have their volume at despicable levels and hear my decloak from far distances or over gunfire and explosions. but being instantly killed just for having your attention fixed on something isn't fun either, and this is the alternative.
as much as i enjoy playing spy, he's mechanics are not fun to play against.
As a spy main, I just kinda like wait for the enemy team to focus on something else and then sneakily backstab, or even USE MY REVOLVER.
I am a spy mains worst nightmare. i'm paranoid all the time, i move like a person who has just learned how to use WASD(hold down W while randomly clicking A or D), i'm pretty much unkillable when on stairs, i always look behind me, i play engineer in a very stupid way where i place my sentries to cover other teammate's sentries just in case of a spy that back stabs someone, and the better i get with the Pomson, the less cloak the spies have. And i WILL NOT talk about the spy massacre of 22...
Tf2 Community: Spy is bad class.
Tf2 Devs: Ok here are the toys to make him atleast somewhat on par with others: Kunai which gives him enough hp to maybe escape his 1 stab and die problem, Dead Ringer same issue being solved by Kunai but worse, Ambassador fixing issues with razorback, Sniper being op in general and Spy being weak as, his stock primary is the only primary that can't two shot light classes like Scout(max ramp up Revolver does 60 dmg...) Diamondback same as Ambassador, meant to give Spy ability to two shot light classes but on rate occasions you lived after your first stab or sapping (only issue with Diamondback is getting crits from teleporters which is easy to farm).
Tf2 Community: NOUUUUUU THOSE ARE TOXIC/OP UNLOCKS, NERF EM!1!1!1
Tf2 devs: Ok, *nerfs nearly all weapons I mentioned*
Tf2 Community: Why is Spy OP? We should maybe buff him? :D
Tf2 Devs: ...
So yeah Spy being weak is Tf2 Community fault, they wine about totally fair, balanced unlocks that were never banned in 6s, only Diamondback was banned but only in Highlander and because it's easy to farm crits from teleporters, NOT from "102 damage of crits with no fall off"
So literally rebuff all Spies unlocks, add slightly mote dmg ramp up to Revolver and have fun. The whole point of spy is being infuriating, like Engy, so why not Spy?
Just nerf diamondback, it makes amby useless right now
@@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927 Amby is useless even without Diamondback, some Spy main showed that Stock outdps Amby in almost all ranges and when Amby does outdmg Stock it's very slightly.
Crazy that Valve thinks Sniper and Spy are equally powerful
just because you're unique, doesn't mean you're good... BUT, a good spy is terrifying
As spy, my favorite part is acting. My favorites are a scout asking for help with a sentry ahead or being a friendly hoovy. Does it waste time, yeah, but the reactions are priceless.
When people comment on the balance of spy they always forget that he can three shot a heavy with the ambassador.
When I first started playing TF2, the Spy was the class that got me interested, because I was a big fan of Metal Gear Solid and stealth based games. The idea of taking out enemies from the inside, without being seen is just such a cool, and underappreciated concept, not just because of the sheer excitement, but because of the risk...
However, I feel that as TF2 expanded, the problem with Spy only became more and more apparent. The class's design isn't the problem, since Spy can still do his job very well, especially if he uses noises, or distractions to get an upper hand.
The problem, is 90% of Spys rely on exploits and gimmicks, instead of just playing the class as intended. And there's nothing wrong with occasionally throwing caution into the wind to escape a deadly situation; it's exciting and cool; however, the biggest weakness to Spy, is being predictable. In order for a Spy to properly thrive, they need to be unexpected, and unpredictable, but the majority of Spys I see are either ONLY trickstabbing, ONLY spamming the Dead Ringer, or ONLY using their gun. They never use all those things, combined with the base gameplay of Spy, of sneaking around, and picking off low health HP. Adding to this, things like Interp Abuse (which luckily Valve changed recently); and you've got a class who relies more on cheap parlor tricks and glitches, then actual mechanical skill. When held to the same rank as every other class; he just doesn't offer anything else, especially in a controlled environment. Spy relies on chaos and noise to get things done; but above all else; the Spys who thrive are the ones who play around the team, and not the ones who run off on their own.
But the other big issue, is Sniper is just the Spy, but better.
Spy is a pick class. He is actually quite affective in highlander and some special cases in 6s. You see the spy stays hidden and only goes for major picks like a medic. He rarely undesguises or go out of cloak.
just found your channel and its a hidden gem on youtube, i see people with 100k subs that dont have as good editing as you, thank you for good content
Thanks!!! I'm proud with how far my editing skills have come but I also have a long way to go.
Spy can be the determining factor between a win or lose if they're good. They could give your medic Uber advantage and take out the heavies and snipers easily.
spy can very much feed off of the chaos of enemies fighting his teammates. i've actually died because i killed the spy behind me instead of the guy shooting me.
a big note on spy, your goal isnt to get a massive killstreak every turn. if anything your hoping to get a good pick, maybe 2 and if you get more good for you. ive had spy games where were at the last point and theres just 1 medic somehow saving the entire day with their heavy pocket. stabbed the heavy and the push was successful. 2 other important things. spy has a gun. and lastly every class, will have times when they die without a single kill. it happens.
While watching this video, I had thought of a few concepts to make spy's disguises more convincing out of the oscar winning acting. Because when a spy is found out they're either forced to fight or flee, this gives them the chance to commit to the disguise. (not a genius at balancing stats but atleast some of these concepts would appeal to people.)
Disguise Revolver
+15% cloak from ammo packs and dispensers
+20% Damage resistance while disguised
+Revolver can fire 1 shot without breaking disguise, additionally will play the firing animation and sound of disguised weapon. Doesnt work on projectile based weapons. Melee weapon disguises will play the swing animation.
-20% damage penalty
-20% fire rate
Invincibility Watch
2 modes, middle mouse to alternate
= Cloak mode
basically the invis watch but the duration is halved (medium ammo boxes fully replenish)
= Invincibility mode
+You do not go invisible but damage reduction is increased to 75% (no indicators for the enemy) for 2-3 seconds depending on cloak. (Pyro wont get fire queue and no sound like the spycicle melting)
-Uncloaking speed duration is increased by 1 second
(Basically a weapon that forces people to put more than 2 seconds to spy check and promotes actually fooling the enemy)
Even with 300 hundred hours on spy I still feel like some people must have superhuman senses and I keep getting surprised by how wide the player model hitboxes are, how many times have I tried to go past a heavy's side just to bump into him even though it doesn't look like I should at all...
@Unusual_Soldier The backstan hitbox and collision hitbox when trying to dodge players are different issues
My unusual Engineer’s cap is actually named “These flies are spies!” so that’s an amazing coincidence. I made that the name as a joke that spies were drawn to engineer like flies… glad great minds think alike.
To quote LazyPurple, "By playing as Spy, you are announcing to the entire enemy team that you think you're smarter than them."
I vaguely remember that from his video, I love it.
pro tip: when disguised, B switches weapons and R reloads. It makes you just a little less suspicious when you do those things
As a spy main I fully agree with this, spys problem is just that he hasn't really caught up to the current landscape of the game, in 2007-2014 was powerful due to being so unique most players didnt fully understand such a complex class but now all his tricks and gimmiques were found out and most people find spy as more of an annoyance rather than stress inducing paranoia, ive lately find myself switching off of spy alot especially in uncletopia servers because playing him against competent players is just not fun and I switch to demo or soldier and actually do well, great videos
3:54 i'm not even a veteran (like, i joined tf2 for first time like 3-4 years ago and i have only 600 or less hours) but that part of the video just literally describes me.
Playing spy is all about gauging the perfect time to strike, if the enemy isn’t distracted already, then why uncloak? A good spy will wait to make a play, this works both ways, because if you die, the opponent lost valuable time they could have spent shooting at your teammates. And if they don’t notice you in time, you can wreak havoc.
Well put. Part of why I'm so bad at Spy is that I'm very impatient. I see someone's back and I go for it without considering that maybe there's a better time. It takes a lot of willpower to restrain yourself and choose the right time to go in.
That comes with hundreds of hours on Spy, which I definitely don't have.
Fun fact. Blue players burn in a more redish tone while red players burn in a more bluish tone to reflect on the team that ignited them. So even if friendly fire was on, a pyro could just as easily check if its a teammate or a spy.
Spy is the only class who relies more on luck than on skill, even a perfect backstab can get taken away from a skilled spy if luck decides it doesn't want to hit-register the stab
Indeed. Spy has basically no place since Jungle Inferno. The ambassador gave him purpose... Competitively, the spy could still be kind of strong if you were good, and casually the spy is naturally good because people suck. It meant that in any environment he could at least accomplish SOMETHING...
But then they took that shit away, and now we just get to deal with nonstop 0 skill diamondbacks. Valve doesn't understand how their own game works.
I play highlander as Pyro and most of the spies kills come from when im busy dealing with spam or he drops in cloaked from somewhere i wasnt expecting, and the spy usually dies right after. Spies in highlander really need a distraction for them to get a kill on a member of the combo, like right after a uber, most times he kind of functions as a camera calling out stuff to the rest of the team.
I think a good trick with Spy is to method act, try to walk where a class would be heading to. I've found the best classes to do this for are Pyro and Sniper, Pyro for the frontline picks like Heavy, Demo, and Soldier, and Sniper to pick Medics, Engis, and Snipers. It also helps that both classes have heavy Spy paranoia (Sniper out of fear, Pyro out of obligation), so if you're "keeping an eye out" for "the other team's Spies" you're much less likely to get Spy checked, because your actions and movement will be in line with that of a normal player on their team. Disguises are entirely theatrics and playing the roles you're given is the most reliable way to find stabs, I've found.
I think the only real reason you can invalidate his opinion of spy's is that he genuinely takes in consideration of competitive mode.
With all seriousness spy is a true skill character. He has many tricks that if you want to play mindlessly he's not a good charecter for you and there are a few easy steps you can do to increase your effectiveness.
1. Use your gun, the biggest problem with this spy review is that he dose not mention the gun, it should be like 60-80% of your kills not the back stabb.
2. You are not going to go kill the entire team yourself, your job is to go in and kill the most problematic person and let your team come in and do the rest of the work. If there's a relly good sniper go get him, if there's a heavy getting healed by medic on point go get medic and let heavy get gunned down by another class. If there's a engineer nest causing problems go backstab the engineer, sap the turret and let your demo go in and blow it up before the engineer can get back.
3. If razor back, use gun it's still a one shot and even if you fuck up the head shot shot again, it has more then one bullet and your point blank range.
Now your on a journey to play spy with brain cells, enjoy
The spy's learning curve is literally the same one as Eve Online.
I recently found this amazing spy, I shot at him and he didn’t react at all, and I thought he wasn’t a spy only for him to backstab me a few seconds later
Nerves of steel on that guy. I instantly freak out if I get shot 🤕
The spy is amazing in casual but in comp you gotta be super careful and you rarely get a good pick because everyone is so aware
This is a very weird among us trailer
Spy is absolutely viable at high level, just watch any mezzo HL match. The real issue is spy players choosing to complain instead of learning the hardest aspect of the class.
That's HL though. That changes so much. 1, you HAVE to have someone play spy. 2, there is more chaos since it's 9v9. 3, there are more non mobile classes for spy to target like Heavy, Engi, Sniper. 4, a lot of times more spy friendly maps are used like upward. 5cp is so bad for spy.
@@10cheesburgers you're comparing HL with 6s though, where you should compare it to casual, which is even more chaotic. 6s is so different from standard TF2 that it's fully its own thing, hell half the classes aren't even played.
@@iMorands That's exactly my point. 6s suck. But thats all anyone competing in TF2 seems to care about sadly.
I agree with most of the video but what I disagree with is that the purpose of the spy class, yes maybe at the start of the meta the spy's main objetive was to get as many backstab as posible idk I wasn't there, but in this new meta, spy's new objective is to make the enemy team as inefective as possible, the engineer can't defend as effectively against the heavy or demoman trying to destroy his nest if he knows you are sapping his buildings and breathing on his neck, giving your teammates a easier win, every second a pyro spends searching for you with your flamethrower, unless you were absolutey destroying the enemy team, is time not spent on the front lines, when you do a backstab and half of the team turns around and you escape, all the time they spent searching for you is time they aren't killing your teammates, ammo is so irrelevant as a resource that the resource you are making your enemies waste instead is time.
Spy's main goal is to generally being a chaotic card or distraction so the enemy team can't dedicate themselves 100% to winning the game, and that's something that will never show in the score, yes spy won't carry any games, and if you already have two, you are better off choosing a powerclass
Wasn't expecting to see my mug at 5:49 (medic)! Good video!
Maybe being disguised could grant a sizeable damage resistance, that way you take more hits meant to spy check and pretend they don't affect you
There's a number of things that the mere paranoia about Spies causes, and while they're mostly rare and fringe case scenarios, they do crop up. Chief among them is making people play classes that are less suited for the map. If you can inspire a vendetta from an enemy who goes Pyro when they were previously blowing your team's Sentries up, that's a win. If all you do is harass Snipers at their battlements, even if you aren't killing them they might recruit half their team to forget the objective and throw the game.
“Must’ve been the wind” fucking classic skyrim
I would like to see the sapper slot be reworked to a gadget slot. Sometimes the engie of the enemy team isnt the main threat or exist leaving you with a dead item. Having gadgets would let spy play into spy movie tropes and prepare the tools to take out the most important target
Spy for me, plays well when there’s heavy chaos or heated moment where everyone tunnels and focus fires on big targets like heavies and sentries. Those are big enough distractions for him to swoop in and nab a few backstabs. His effectiveness is the most fluctuant of all the classes. Being OP in big team pubs with fresh installs and poor team coordination, to bottom scoring with 2 kills, 24 deaths with the 2 kills being the Sniper who is only playing for his contract.
Spy definitely is the niche class that isn’t picked too often, maybe around the same level as medic but slightly higher. Which sometimes in moments where it’s a generic Soldier, Demo and Scout lineup you can slip them up by being an off-character like Spy. Spy is probably my least played class, but he’s also the most fresh and exciting to play. There is something so fascinating about being behind enemy lines snooping on their progress and causing misdirection to any unsuspecting enemy is hilarious.
Man I just got 50 backstabs only using stock loadout then get recommended to this? Understandable, have a nice day.
Presumably functional brains
Spys one of the hardest to play, but at the same time the most fun to play even if you're bad or not
I keep thinking about how different the Spy would be if friendly fire was a thing in normal TF2. Or if they gave the Spy more options to make his disguises more convincing. Or if they bumped his health to 150.