I must have five examples on my own house where I have paid and then spent months trying to secure certificates. My log burner, my hot water tank and new boiler, two lots of electrical works, oh my fensa windows, took three years! The only one that did it all perfectly was the solar person, no wait, he didn’t correctly lodge it with the local authority so I had to tell him to do that several months later. Maybe I pick really bad people?
@@paulharrison2325 Same here, paid for electrical work, never received the certificate, at least I have the invoice - they issued a certificate for previous work, just not the last time.
The paying of a bill is an essential part of a contract. If the customer fails to pay the bill then the contract is broken. If the contract is broken, then the contractor isn't obliged to do anything.
Absolutely correct. BS7671 states that a certificate "shall be issued to the person ordering the work". The definition of "issued" does not imply immediate possession, merely that "the person ordering the work" is named as the client on the certificate. Once the payment part of the contract is completed (and it would help if this part is included in your terms and conditions) then the possession may be transferred to "the person ordering the work". There is nothing wrong with doing this, and suggesting that it does not comply with BS7671 is disingenuous at best, and a blatent lie at worst.
That is a complete misunderstanding of the law. The fact one provision of a contract is broken does not give either party the right to completely ignore all other provisions of the contract. If the contractor doesn't honour the terms of the contract, then the customer has the right to refer the situation to a County Court, or The High Court and take action to enforce that contract. The idea that the entire contract becomes null and void is plain wrong. And equally the contractor can commence litigation against the customer for non payment. But you have to grow up. You can't act like poorly educated school drop-outs and adopt a stubborn, immature and wrong attitude, "he won't pay me so I'm going to withhold the certificate to try to blackmail him". If you break a provision of the contract, as contractor, you have still broken a provision, it doesn't become lawful because the customer refused to pay you. They might have a legitimate reason for refusing to pay you. What you do is try and resolve it like mature educated adults (difficult I know!) and if you can't, then you take the matter to Court and you let a judge decide. And if you have a good case, the judge will order the customer to pay you and your costs. You got to get away from this attitude of thinking you can do whatever you want because the customer has refused to pay you. This is not how it works and the Courts will not look favourably upon it. You need to remember that your own actions may still be a breach of contract. The courts also have mediation services which you can use and avoid a full court case, so there really is no excuse for not trying to resolve it amicably, and that helps your case if you do have to sue. But going straight to breaking provisions of the contract, and trying to blackmail the customer is not the right approach. That is not an educated approach
@@devonfuseCompletely wrong. The fact you bring BS7671 into this discussion is deeply troubling. What governs this is contract Law and the Civil Courts, NOT BS7671 and NOT the IET.
@@deang5622 okay then. Show me where the issuing of a certificate specifies the transfer of the possession of that to a client within a specified time frame if your contract conditions state that the possession of the certificate follows final payment?
@devonfuse Mate, you can put whatever you want in to your contract with your customer. And I don't know what terms you write in. I can't provide you with an answer to your question because I haven't seen your contract.
@@JaenEngineeringfor the U.K. capacity factor, solar becomes much more marginal if you have to build a wide span steel structure to support it and need special access to maintain it. Hence why we don’t really do it.
No. And I will tell you why. By only issuing it after the electrician has been paid it means that the issuance of the certificate is being used as a weapon to provide leverage to being paid. The problem with that is, what if there is a legitimate dispute between Customer and electrician? It can result in the certificate never being issued even though the installation has been done to the MCS standard. And this could cause problems for the new home owner. The certificate is a statement that the installation has been done to the required standard, NOT that it has been done to the required standard AND that the electrician has been paid. You are linking it to something else (being paid) which is not what the certificate is about. And that will lead to complications. If you as an electrician have not been paid for a job, then the correct remedy is to take the customer to Court for the unpaid balance. You already have the means for redress , so why would you want to carry out an illegal means of redress? Electricians need to stop breaking the law when the customer doesn't pay them. There is a legal remedy in place they can use to recover an unpaid bill. They need to learn how to use the legal process that exists. It is not difficult. I have used the process a number of times.
@@deang5622And what if there isn’t a legitimate reason for them not paying us, we have absolutely nothing apart form small claims court, I register part P and get cert ready, no certificate until payment in full, you don’t get a MOT certificate until you have paid, what’s the difference
@@deang5622 I agree its legal but so is a contract of employment thats implied or agreed upon in writing between customer and a business owner. Non-payment because of lack of funds or whatever excuse I'm sorry is no excuse and just as bad. You wouldn't fill your shopping trolley in the supermarket and at the checkout walk out with the goods after saying you can't pay. People need to stop employing or ordering work they can't afford. So it's a legal requirement to hand over certification but so is payment.
@markrainford1219 I didn't say that. I wasn't suggesting that. I thought it was quite clear I was talking about the scenario where you have issued an invoice and not been paid it.
What cable theft from unsecured farmers fields and unsecured wind turbines, I can't imagine who could be responsible. Who would want to do such a thing. Those people living in the lay bye down the road are so nice I always buy a charm from them
I paid my electrician the same day I received his invoice, here we are months later and still no certificate even though I've chased, next time they will not be paid until I receive the certificate!
Have you contacted the governing body they are registered with? Most of the time I come across this the 'electrician' isn't actually registered and they either just say they can do a certificate or they have a mate that signs it off then you never see them again. If we owed you a cert and you contacted the NIC they'd make us provide it or strike us off the register.
@@petersylvester2905 Thanks, was definitely registered when they did our consumer unit as we had a proper certificate and it was logged with BC, will chase him up again after Christmas.
That person from Select, hasn't worked at the sharp end of installation contracts with dodgy directors and QS's with "its my money that final account until you sue us for it" attitude. every penny of the profit and a large chunk of the overheads is tied up in the final payment. If you gave the cert, its like showing your hand to the table at poker. What an absolute Dunderhead he is.
MCS needs to stop being so rigid about Heat Pump installs, can't get the BUS grant on a new build without ripping everything out even though there are non-MCS options available.
Aye, at 4:29 SELECT have a point about “anyone can call themselves an electrician” but how many of their members call themselves electrical engineers, when clearly they are not!
@@paulharrison2325yet most practicing engineers don’t bother with CEng or even IEng. I wonder why that is? I worked for a DNO for over 30 years, most of that time as a Senior Protection and Control Engineer; having either membership of the IEE/IET or chartered status meant absolutely nothing career-wise, apart from having to pay fairly large annual fees. I think the whole CEng etc thing is about the awarding body making money tbh, like many of the electricians’ trade bodies seem to be these days. Just my opinion, of course.
Words are: "Dunderheads and Gloom". Electrics, Plumbing, Building and Parenting are all DIY trained. Gas installation being the one which service engineers are supposed to be adequately qualified. I can't recall how many bodge jobs for the first Four I have been involved in fixing. Lack of Competence is only revealed after a disaster has struck. No matter how tight you make the regulations, there will always be folks who have a go and run away.
7:30 Becoming more irritable and impulsive are classic brain injury symptoms. Probably a hypoxic injury before CPR was started. 9:10 there's a dozen brands of these cameras now, they're almost all using the same Infiray CCDs which is why all the £200-£300 ones have a 256x192 resolution.
I would say to Select, exactly what I say to the NICEIC, the contracts only complete upon final payment then certificate issued, I'm sure Select would be crying if electrician stop paying them, they would probably revoke their membership, no more different than withholding a test certificate until final payment.
This drive by the industry to further form an electrical cartel is ridiculous. An apprenticeship should only ever be one way to qualify, and not the only way ti qualify. Apprenticeships only work for children out of college who want to become an electrician. If you are having a career change in later life, and you have a mortgage, family etc, you can't just shoot off drop all earning heeds and do an apprenticeship when yiu need income. So there has to be another way to qualify by doing an extra training course and exam to not need an apprenticeship. And not only should this route be protected, it should be further invested in.
The company is registered not the individual so many companies send out installers that wouldn't meet the training criteria to register themselves. You can get a certificate for your installation by a company not registered but they won't be able to notify building control or add the installation to the MCS database.
Just WHO are these certification ‘authorities’ they seem to be like the others a trade body with a financial interest of higher profits for their own interest. Those that make qualifications that control others seem to be those with no active working practice and are there by being a company owner.
@ no you can work for a company that has a QS so you work can be signed off, but you cannot become a new applicant.. so unless you have grandfather rights, which I think they are hammering down on?
Also lets be frank - home owners or people in general all think they can do either some or most trades. They'd rather give it a go than pay someone to do it. A standard would change if anyone did work in their home that was not qualified it would invalidate insurance or warrenties. That would stop Bob the Builder doing bits and bobs.
It's "dunderheads" and "sycamores" for this week's guess. Enjoy the break and the festive season. Will 2025 be the year for 1 million RUclips subscribers? Let's hope so :)
Certification after payment is cleared should be a standard. What is wrong with people?!
I must have five examples on my own house where I have paid and then spent months trying to secure certificates. My log burner, my hot water tank and new boiler, two lots of electrical works, oh my fensa windows, took three years! The only one that did it all perfectly was the solar person, no wait, he didn’t correctly lodge it with the local authority so I had to tell him to do that several months later.
Maybe I pick really bad people?
@@paulharrison2325 Same here, paid for electrical work, never received the certificate, at least I have the invoice - they issued a certificate for previous work, just not the last time.
The paying of a bill is an essential part of a contract. If the customer fails to pay the bill then the contract is broken. If the contract is broken, then the contractor isn't obliged to do anything.
Absolutely correct. BS7671 states that a certificate "shall be issued to the person ordering the work". The definition of "issued" does not imply immediate possession, merely that "the person ordering the work" is named as the client on the certificate. Once the payment part of the contract is completed (and it would help if this part is included in your terms and conditions) then the possession may be transferred to "the person ordering the work". There is nothing wrong with doing this, and suggesting that it does not comply with BS7671 is disingenuous at best, and a blatent lie at worst.
That is a complete misunderstanding of the law.
The fact one provision of a contract is broken does not give either party the right to completely ignore all other provisions of the contract.
If the contractor doesn't honour the terms of the contract, then the customer has the right to refer the situation to a County Court, or The High Court and take action to enforce that contract.
The idea that the entire contract becomes null and void is plain wrong.
And equally the contractor can commence litigation against the customer for non payment.
But you have to grow up. You can't act like poorly educated school drop-outs and adopt a stubborn, immature and wrong attitude, "he won't pay me so I'm going to withhold the certificate to try to blackmail him".
If you break a provision of the contract, as contractor, you have still broken a provision, it doesn't become lawful because the customer refused to pay you. They might have a legitimate reason for refusing to pay you.
What you do is try and resolve it like mature educated adults (difficult I know!) and if you can't, then you take the matter to Court and you let a judge decide. And if you have a good case, the judge will order the customer to pay you and your costs.
You got to get away from this attitude of thinking you can do whatever you want because the customer has refused to pay you. This is not how it works and the Courts will not look favourably upon it. You need to remember that your own actions may still be a breach of contract.
The courts also have mediation services which you can use and avoid a full court case, so there really is no excuse for not trying to resolve it amicably, and that helps your case if you do have to sue.
But going straight to breaking provisions of the contract, and trying to blackmail the customer is not the right approach. That is not an educated approach
@@devonfuseCompletely wrong.
The fact you bring BS7671 into this discussion is deeply troubling.
What governs this is contract Law and the Civil Courts, NOT BS7671 and NOT the IET.
@@deang5622 okay then. Show me where the issuing of a certificate specifies the transfer of the possession of that to a client within a specified time frame if your contract conditions state that the possession of the certificate follows final payment?
@devonfuse Mate, you can put whatever you want in to your contract with your customer. And I don't know what terms you write in.
I can't provide you with an answer to your question because I haven't seen your contract.
Put the panels on top of all the warehouses that are being built not on farming land.
That and car parks. Generate energy and provide shade.
@@JaenEngineeringproblem with car parks is cars park there.
@@grumpyhale821 you know you don't have to put them on the ground. You can lift them up so cars can drive under them 🙄
@@JaenEngineeringfor the U.K. capacity factor, solar becomes much more marginal if you have to build a wide span steel structure to support it and need special access to maintain it. Hence why we don’t really do it.
Issuing a certificate AFTER payment should be standard practice.
No. And I will tell you why.
By only issuing it after the electrician has been paid it means that the issuance of the certificate is being used as a weapon to provide leverage to being paid.
The problem with that is, what if there is a legitimate dispute between Customer and electrician?
It can result in the certificate never being issued even though the installation has been done to the MCS standard. And this could cause problems for the new home owner.
The certificate is a statement that the installation has been done to the required standard, NOT that it has been done to the required standard AND that the electrician has been paid.
You are linking it to something else (being paid) which is not what the certificate is about. And that will lead to complications.
If you as an electrician have not been paid for a job, then the correct remedy is to take the customer to Court for the unpaid balance.
You already have the means for redress , so why would you want to carry out an illegal means of redress?
Electricians need to stop breaking the law when the customer doesn't pay them. There is a legal remedy in place they can use to recover an unpaid bill. They need to learn how to use the legal process that exists.
It is not difficult. I have used the process a number of times.
@@deang5622And what if there isn’t a legitimate reason for them not paying us, we have absolutely nothing apart form small claims court, I register part P and get cert ready, no certificate until payment in full, you don’t get a MOT certificate until you have paid, what’s the difference
@@deang5622 I agree its legal but so is a contract of employment thats implied or agreed upon in writing between customer and a business owner. Non-payment because of lack of funds or whatever excuse I'm sorry is no excuse and just as bad. You wouldn't fill your shopping trolley in the supermarket and at the checkout walk out with the goods after saying you can't pay. People need to stop employing or ordering work they can't afford. So it's a legal requirement to hand over certification but so is payment.
@@deang5622 You are having a laugh aren’t you? Why should you finish a job knowing that you are not going to get paid?
@markrainford1219 I didn't say that.
I wasn't suggesting that.
I thought it was quite clear I was talking about the scenario where you have issued an invoice and not been paid it.
What cable theft from unsecured farmers fields and unsecured wind turbines, I can't imagine who could be responsible. Who would want to do such a thing. Those people living in the lay bye down the road are so nice I always buy a charm from them
I can't wait for February's MCS regs update, and March's and April's...
😂😭😭
I paid my electrician the same day I received his invoice, here we are months later and still no certificate even though I've chased, next time they will not be paid until I receive the certificate!
Ah! The old Meso-American stand off. 🤔
Have you contacted the governing body they are registered with? Most of the time I come across this the 'electrician' isn't actually registered and they either just say they can do a certificate or they have a mate that signs it off then you never see them again. If we owed you a cert and you contacted the NIC they'd make us provide it or strike us off the register.
@@petersylvester2905 Thanks, was definitely registered when they did our consumer unit as we had a proper certificate and it was logged with BC, will chase him up again after Christmas.
o yeah, theres money to fit leds into the roads but potholes have to wait again...
They shouldn't be using farm land for solar it should be put on all the empty factory and shop roof's
That person from Select, hasn't worked at the sharp end of installation contracts with dodgy directors and QS's with "its my money that final account until you sue us for it" attitude. every penny of the profit and a large chunk of the overheads is tied up in the final payment. If you gave the cert, its like showing your hand to the table at poker. What an absolute Dunderhead he is.
MCS needs to stop being so rigid about Heat Pump installs, can't get the BUS grant on a new build without ripping everything out even though there are non-MCS options available.
Thanks for commenting! 😃
Yet engineers don’t have protected status. Even Protection Engineers don’t have protected status.
Chartered engineers do.
Aye, at 4:29 SELECT have a point about “anyone can call themselves an electrician” but how many of their members call themselves electrical engineers, when clearly they are not!
@@paulharrison2325yet most practicing engineers don’t bother with CEng or even IEng. I wonder why that is? I worked for a DNO for over 30 years, most of that time as a Senior Protection and Control Engineer; having either membership of the IEE/IET or chartered status meant absolutely nothing career-wise, apart from having to pay fairly large annual fees. I think the whole CEng etc thing is about the awarding body making money tbh, like many of the electricians’ trade bodies seem to be these days. Just my opinion, of course.
@ that might be true, but it’s a protected title. Most senior people I work with get chartered or become fellows.
Words are:
"Dunderheads and Gloom".
Electrics, Plumbing, Building and Parenting are all DIY trained. Gas installation being the one which service engineers are supposed to be adequately qualified.
I can't recall how many bodge jobs for the first Four I have been involved in fixing.
Lack of Competence is only revealed after a disaster has struck. No matter how tight you make the regulations, there will always be folks who have a go and run away.
True dat. 💪
There are all kinds of people on all trades (and DIYers) !
100% agree no certificate without payment first
I am gobsmacked to find out that the term “electrician” is not protected in the U.K. Wow.
7:30 Becoming more irritable and impulsive are classic brain injury symptoms. Probably a hypoxic injury before CPR was started.
9:10 there's a dozen brands of these cameras now, they're almost all using the same Infiray CCDs which is why all the £200-£300 ones have a 256x192 resolution.
Led in road marking indicators, more council tax rises then !
I would say to Select, exactly what I say to the NICEIC, the contracts only complete upon final payment then certificate issued, I'm sure Select would be crying if electrician stop paying them, they would probably revoke their membership, no more different than withholding a test certificate until final payment.
This drive by the industry to further form an electrical cartel is ridiculous. An apprenticeship should only ever be one way to qualify, and not the only way ti qualify. Apprenticeships only work for children out of college who want to become an electrician. If you are having a career change in later life, and you have a mortgage, family etc, you can't just shoot off drop all earning heeds and do an apprenticeship when yiu need income. So there has to be another way to qualify by doing an extra training course and exam to not need an apprenticeship. And not only should this route be protected, it should be further invested in.
Are those really fancy led road signs able to say pot holes be aware🤣😂🤣😂
Does it mean that we could have a solar installation certified although our ingenieer is not MCS certified?
The company is registered not the individual so many companies send out installers that wouldn't meet the training criteria to register themselves. You can get a certificate for your installation by a company not registered but they won't be able to notify building control or add the installation to the MCS database.
DUNDERHEAD & UPSTICKS.😂 Happy Christmas and New Year to all.
Expect to see lighting tiles on roads in 2025. Expect to see someone in 2026 making YT videos about the broken lighting tiles on roads.
😂😂 because that's not happened before 😂😂
Awh, come on now... 😂
@@efixx Merry Christmas!
You could make warning signs for potholes...
Farrier and Sycamore…
Or another 101 options this week 😂
Happy Christmas 🎅
It was an exciting week! 😂
Just WHO are these certification ‘authorities’ they seem to be like the others a trade body with a financial interest of higher profits for their own interest. Those that make qualifications that control others seem to be those with no active working practice and are there by being a company owner.
Let's go for DUNDERHEADS and SYCAMORES.
Are the words “Dunderheads” and “Sycamore” ?
Dunderheads and sycamores for the challenge words. Merry whatsits🎉
Well it’s not true, as you can’t join a governing body now without qualifications?!😮
Although desirable, it's not necessary to be part of a governing body to work as a spark
@ no you can work for a company that has a QS so you work can be signed off, but you cannot become a new applicant.. so unless you have grandfather rights, which I think they are hammering down on?
Dunderhead & Sycamore
Great guesses! Listen to the next show to see if you're right. 😃
Also lets be frank - home owners or people in general all think they can do either some or most trades. They'd rather give it a go than pay someone to do it. A standard would change if anyone did work in their home that was not qualified it would invalidate insurance or warrenties. That would stop Bob the Builder doing bits and bobs.
Only if it can be proven beyond doubt it was them wot did it guv.!
You can provide a copy of a handwritten certificate copied from the regs, it complies and you don't hand over the certificate their really after.
thunderheads and sycamore.
Dunderheads and Sycamore
Nice guesses! Tune in to the next show to see if you got it. 😊
It's "dunderheads" and "sycamores" for this week's guess. Enjoy the break and the festive season. Will 2025 be the year for 1 million RUclips subscribers? Let's hope so :)
Dunderhead & sycamores
Dunderheads and upsticks
Dunderheads and Upsticks
Dunderheads, sycamores
Farrier, dunderheads. Merry Christmas and a very merry New Year
Dunderheads & sycamores
Dunderheads Sycamores
Sycamore and dunderheads
dunderheads and majestic
dunderheads and exploded
Dunderheads and sycamore’s
dunderheads and sycamore’s
Fewer assessments!
Not less assessments, come on, do better…
I am ashamed. 😞
Deregulation is Key to a safer future!!!!
Dunderheads and Upsticks