There’s still the question of why a word like that became a word for simply bad and poser. The word was used towards one group of people that were so dehumanised and hated that it became synonymous with being bad in general. The fact that it changes is important but the gay community deserve a little credit for living with the attitude of “they suck so I’m going to call them what I call you.” We had the same thing in the UK but more on the nose; when I was growing up, anything rubbish or unappealing was just gay, because of its connection to a community that got shit on relentlessly.
I think I especially enjoy your South Park videos bc of the clear admiration for matt and trey. Defending their subtle philosophical points about the malleability of a living language was super insightful, but then theres also the relatability of watching a true fan of something reveal the even deeper layer about the creator's intentions like how they were using the court case to make their actual case irl. And just another data point for your, but I'd also watch a longer, more off the cuff take of stuff youre really passionate about. Maybe more along the lines of rlm's half in the bag/re:view stuff. Great video
"The F Word" is one of my favorite South Park episodes, specifically because of the reasons you gave and because it's just hilarious. The way in which the characters struggle so hard to change the word's meaning to fit their agenda is both hilarious yet seems accurate
*Jared Revisits South Park* Symbiotic - Study of Sign and Symbols 1:33 Pen - 🖊 (Penn - 🪄) (William Penn - (Pennsylvania) 2:58 Defending oneself against Allegations and Slander 3:43 1. Signifier 2. Interpreter 3. Signified 4:24 Physical Resemblence 1. Icon: A Signifier, 2. What’s on the Icon: The Signified 3. Interpretation: the connection 4:43 Index • Smoke suggests a Fire 🔥 • All Fires include Smoke • Do All Smokes include Fire? 4:55 The Symbol Letters, Sound, Object 5:45 Dictionary Studying 📖 The Dictionary Definition changed over time 7:12 F Word multiple usages 8:04 (Stop Interpreting on top of my intended Interpretation?)(ask what I mean when I use the term, don’t tell me what I am saying?) 8:49 The Last Act • Catching up to new meaning 9:44 Constant Diligence • Responsibility & Effort • Large Extremely Complex Situations
I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but I really appreciate how you're able to discuss so many topics while... the analysis and psychology, and the love of film stay in the forefront, instead of judgement or ego. Even during the handful of times I haven't agreed with your conclusions, I was still engaged enough by the discussion that agreeing/ disagreeing never felt like the point. Anyway, I was spoiled by all the many videos and podcasts back then, and I'm glad I still get to hear you, even if it's less frequently. . . . This episode specifically though: Growing up in the 90s, this term was absolutely used as a slur and "bad" simultaneously, and I would never feel comfortable saying it.
As a translation student studying people like Saussure and Barthes and also a big South Park Fan I really really this video! I've always loved this episode but you really made me love it even more
Funny enough, my favorite South Park episode is Season 11 Episode 2, “Cartman Sucks” which is the one where Butters gets sent to a gay conversion camp. All of the commentary in the A-plot is so poignant, powerful, and brutally hilarious.
That reminds me of the episode that is basically a brother to this one and it's "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson"(S11, E1). They explore the failed approach of "white guilt" and how it can be more damaging in the long run, at least part of the episode does
Even just in my lifetime the meaning of the word "queer" has changed. When I was in high school in the late 90's and early 00's, "queer" was always a pejorative. Now days it's even included in the pro-gay acronym LGBTQ+ and is given to the humanities subject Queer Studies.
The academic subject of Queer Theory was created in the 1960's. I don't disagree that probably everyone in your highschool in middle America in the 90's used it in a negative way. But it's not something new.
I remember the movie “Dude, where’s my car?” They used the “f-word” and it was no big deal- nowadays it’s a cancelled word. It definitely had a different meaning.
Having Big Gay Al use the "F" word doesn't accomplish anything. Because a real gay man isn't saying it. He's a character created, provided words by, and voiced by straight men. He's a puppet to make it look like "even gay people don't have a problem with this word anymore, so let's just get real." But not actually being a real gay man, there's no way to get real with his message. I like South Park a lot, and I like South Park's take on gays, gay rights, and the intersection between the rights of gay people and other groups (say, Big Gay Al being kicked out of Scouts for being gay). I like their refusal to conform to knee-jerk politically correct thinking. But there's nothing clever about the argument being made in this episode, and using the hyper-intellectualized logic of semiotics to evade what is pretty flatly obvious--it's an offensive word to nearly all gay people that for some reason a number of straight people want to pretend isn't offensive so they can keep using it--is exactly the sort of belabored effort to justify a wrong that South Park usually lampoons. It doesn't really matter that historically the word has had various definitions. What matters is that right now, still today, it is used heavily to mock gay people. To the limited extent that there has been a cultural transition from an insulting word meaning "gay people" to an insulting word meaning "laughably ridiculous people" I suspect only happened because of the homophobic connection that gay people are laughably ridiculous, so the word used to attack gay people can be used to attack other laughably ridiculous groups. Why go along with that? Even if you never meant the word as a homophobic insult, isn't the fact that it is still mostly used that way and that basically every gay man alive has had the word hurled at them as an insult at least once, if not multiple times, enough reason to maybe think of removing it from your vocabulary?
Thanks for the thoughtful response! Regarding your last point, about retiring the term: my concern is that attempting to retire terms only anchors them in the hateful meaning. Think of the word queer, which not too long ago functioned similarly as the f-word in its hateful contexts. But instead of retiring it, an academic discipline rose to prominence using it in a different context, and now, the word has been largely liberated from the hateful meaning. Today, people proudly self identify with the term. Now I’m not saying we should do the same the f-word. It’s worth mentioning that the show no longer uses the word and I agree with the commenters who say that knowing that people use a variety of interpretive contexts, it’s responsible to use other terms. But retiring terms, suspending nuance, and insisting that words be interpreted in their most hateful contexts when there’s little evidence of hate present, doesn’t actually help in the fight against hate. I fear it does the opposite.
@@JaredBauer I appreciate your response, and I understand what you are saying in the broader sense of taking the most extreme meanings of words and trying to put a ban on expressions that can have genuinely multiple meanings. But I don't think your analogy with the word queer works. After all, that word was was reclaimed by _gay_ people in academia, not straight people who didn't want to let go of a word they liked to use, which seems to be the case with the "f" word. And I can't go along with the phrase "retiring a term" in this case, as if it was once perfectly okay to use this word and totally non-offensive until an extreme PC mania took over cultural discourse (I do think an extreme PC mania has taken over cultural discourse in various areas, though; just don't think it's the case here). It has had its current meaning as a gay slur since at least the 1930's, long before any of us were born, and continues to be used primarily as a slur term for gay people. Apologies for repeating myself, but it seems to me the only reason it works as an insult for non-gays is because the person hurling the word knowns they will be offended to be lumped in with a designated despised group (gay people). Thanks for the discussion, though, and thanks for this channel. I enjoy your content. Just don't agree with you on this one. No biggie. This is part of what the exchange of ideas is about.
I laughed so much i cried when I watched the episode. It was one of the funniest episodes ever. Also, it is a problem that you can not say the word without causing harm. 🤔
I agree with all of your points, but can South Park (or any one entity) manufacture change to the meaning of a word? Wouldn't it take wider usage, similar to the evolution of the word queer through academia, to change the meaning in everyday use?
I don’t think South Park ever has changed the meaning of a word. That wasn’t what I was trying to suggest. It was more that South Park was making the case that its previous useage of the term was not hateful in intent, and among certain relatively prevalent contexts, in impact. But entertainment CAN coin new terms with unique meanings! Remember MILF from America Pie? I think Michael Jackson is largely to credit for taking the word “bad” and making it mean “good” in the 80s/90s. So there’s nothing about SP as such that would prevent it from POSSIBLY doing such a thing, I just don’t think it ever has happened.
@@JaredBauer Ah very true! Thanks for the response. I see where you are coming from. As for the media coining new meanings... I have to wonder how many times the media has internationally created new meanings vs the times culture has adopted phrases from media because it resonates with people. I'm reminded of the phrase "fetch" in Mean Girls. Or anytime an aspiring influencer tries to go viral. But now that I think about it, the top marketers have probably figured it out and I'm none the wiser haha
I had to call a certain friend so could complain w ribald humour on topics bc you can’t just do it now and everyone knows it’s just humour. Everyone is so uptight now.
Fascinating. In the first thirty seconds of this video I thought for sure it was going to be about "With Apologies to Jessie Jackson". Now you've got me wondering what the distinction there is. To me as a millenial, the first time I in the real world took my internet-language out, in front of a gay coworker, was the last time (I was 18 at the time). Whereas for the N word I never used it. Yet, at the age of 33 looking back on it, I see both words as equally harmful (though I have friends who'd passionately disagree that words can be harmful in any real sense), and I avoid using either of them. Then again, as I think about it now (and now also thinking about the current discourse around the "R" word), there was a time when I agreed with Michael Scott's opinion on this: You don't call retarded people retards, you call your friends retards when they're being retarded. Which I think was said in the context of talking about the F word.
This is an interesting topic and I learned a lot about this, and also I find it interesting that the black community has grappled with this exact issue regarding the N-word. If I were to write or produce a video in relation to that topic, would it be okay if I used your video as a reference?
For those who see homosexuality as a bad, disgusting, repulsive thing, they pejoratively referred to gay people as "faggot." When referring to non-homosexual people they don't like with that word, it still carries with it the insinuations and values of the prior usage. The confusion of the bikers is not something that reflects reality. Irl when someone uses that word, the one who says it knows that they're weaponizing homosexuality and the person being called that word knows that they're being called a himosexual in pejorative way, and that link to homosexuality is what's intended to be offensive. There are spaces where gay people use that word amongst each other as a part if their humor, and for many of those who do, it's a method of acknowledging and healing from social trauma. White people *shouldn't* use the n-word, straight people *shouldn't* use the f-word.
I didn't see the episode of South Park, as I don't watch TV or streaming services. But unless the episode included a discussion as Jared spoke about @9:20 onward about the pitfalls of using pejoratives like the F-word and similar, then their treatment in the episode seems self-serving. When I grew up in late 1950s through the 1960s, the F-word had the serious meaning of homosexuality in it's worst connotation. The sting was that it pejoratively referred to homosexuality as being bad and disgusting. And for many homosexuals, that sense of the word has NEVER lost that sense and morphed into something non-specific similar to bastard or son-of-a-bitch. Sometimes with some gay communities or individuals, the F-word has been adopted similar to the way the N-word is used among Blacks; from within group it is OK but not coming from without. I never use the F-word and I am not afraid to tell others it is probably unwise to do so. Personally, I think the F-word needs to be retired.
I still really like the idea behind the episode, but sadly in the real world, the term is still used for hate, specifically against Homosexuals, and while there was a movement to try to divorce the term from it, since we all stopped using it, now the only ones that still use it are those using it as a homophobic slur. However since I wanted a nice catch all word for people being that particular special kind of asshole, I've adopted C*nt myself.
Don’t you think it’s funny that you can’t say the word? According to you it’s just a word but you’re afraid to say it. Turns out things can and do change. Are you telling me philosophers who didn’t live in our world are wrong? Wow
If I say "orange" means "blue", and I call you an orange and you understand I mean blue, I haven't proven that the meaning of the word has changed. You can understand both what someone intends to express and also know that they are making an incorrect statement. It's dishonest to suggest the F slur was not used at the time in a homophobic way. It might not have been literally calling someone gay, but it is saying that they are like a gay person and that it is something bad to be. It's like trying to say the N word wasn't racist against black people when it was being used against an (White) Irish person.
Can all people in left-YT please start educating everyone about both the: (1) difference between right-authoritarian vs. right-libertarian; & (2) difference between left-authoritarian vs left-libertarian? It’s long overdue. People aren’t cattle or sheep: They will understand if we educate them. Though we need to educate (& learn) about all the nuance.
For example: Two different left YTers, Step Back & Anark, who both released videos this past month on this topic, made horribly inaccurate videos on the subject. Just atrocious: They both expressed basically no interest in logic or empirical truth. We are in a deplorable state for left YT…
@E how is the political compass meme based on either logic or empiricism? It's especially ironic since it's mainly used by the people who are, or at least act like, edgy middle-schlooers from South Park, whose arguments are the rhetorical equivalent of the game of "I'm not touching you."
@@JebeckyGranjola You have to do your research. Takes 2 min of ggling. And you have to be more analytic than that if you want the best political model that reflects true reality: The recently discovered 2-axis political model is the most logical, empirically sound & practical political model humanity has atm. You can’t refute that, this is what reason shows.
@E Is it rational, or is it empirical? Do you know what that means? Those things are the opposite of each other. I can't refute it because you have not demonstrated any propositions to be refuted. Saying it's the best is a subjective value judgement. I'm asking HOW.
This reminds me of when a teenager will say "well who decided that *insert any swear word* actually means what it means, it's just a sound and sounds are not offensive.
I hated this episode at the time, still don't like it. Using the word in such a manner is still rooted in homophobia, even if that isn't the intended meaning, and there are plenty of word choices that aren't rooted that would work better.
My opinion has changed a lot over the years since I was a teenager. We used to say something was g*y as a negative which wasn't specifically used to be demeaning to LGBT people. However, I now understand how we used the words "g*y" and "f*g" to insult people because it was demeaning to be referred to as a homosexual. I understand context in this episode that it is just being used as an insult like jerk, but I think considering the history of its usage, it should probably not be used this way any more. I consider myself very non-PC when it comes to comedy but in everyday life I am careful with word usage to not cause unnecessary offence.
This episode is a dumb persons idea of what a smart argument is. Actually, "dumb" is a perfect example of a word whose meaning actually changed; of course it originally meant intellectually disabled. Every time the word for the neurological condition would become a pejorative, they would come up with a new word. Then the new word would be taken up as an insult, and another new word would be used, etc. It's called the Euphemism Treadmill. If it was about that, it would actually be smart and clever.
I agree with a lot of what you and Jebecky are saying. Problem is, if you retire a term, you anchor it in its hateful meaning, which only gives it more toxic potency when people use it. We want to be mindful about what we say as to not cause harm, but also be aware that words can be liberated from hateful meanings. We want to create more benevolent and inclusive meanings, not police arbitrary signifiers.
@@JaredBauer Thanks for your reply. I get what you mean about liberating words from hateful meanings like queer. I loved this episode when it came out and I still do. But some part of me still feels wrong about using words like that. In fact, I don't think I've ever said f*g/f*ggot to anyone because I believe they're equivalent to the n-word. I cringed a couple years ago when a 19-year old girl said something was g*y. Can you elaborate a bit on creating more benevolent and inclusive meanings?
@@JaredBauer I think a big problem with your argument especially pertaining to this episode is that they're still using the word as a pejorative maybe not directly towards gays but the fact that words like "gay" and "f@g" are used interchangeably with stuff that is bad, gross or lame means it's still used in a homophobic context. I would be more inclined to agree if we for example started using gay as a term for being happy.
I feel like this episode and "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" have messages that, while both at least a little bit true, "Jesse Jackson" a little bit more so, contradict one another. "Jesse Jackson's" was that you can't truly understand just how offensive it is to have the n-word directed at you unless you're Black, so it's best to sympathize with that and avoid saying it, while "F Word's" is that the meanings of words change over time and something that was once offensive might not be anymore because people collectively decide to use it differently. However, most would say that that hadn't happened with "f*g" as much as Trey and Matt liked to think it had; if anything, people decided it was more offensive than it used to be. Not to mention the only reason why it was ever a general insult in the first place was because of it originally being a slur for gay/unmasculine/womanly men (contrary to somewhat popular belief, "f****t" didn't become a gay slur because of gay men being thrown onto burning piles of sticks, but because of gathering kindling generally being seen as a woman's job in old times, the wires of that line of thought got crossed with ones of masculinity, and that's how it became a gay slur). I don't think you can take the stance on slurs positied by "Jesse Jackson" for some slurs and the one posited by "F Word" for others. Like Kyle said in "Cartoon Wars," "either all of it's OK, or none of it is." And the stance from "Jesse Jackson" is probably going to get you a little bit less punched. I don't think that Trey and Matt need to apologize to GLAAD for making this episode (and as far as I'm concerned, GLAAD is a wannabe state liberal organization that wouldn't mind if the Western world were ran like a pro-LGBTQIA+ version of IngSoc from 1984), but I don't think that they, or most other South Park fans, should hold it up as an example of a great South Park episode. Like the stuff with ManBearPig as a climate change allegory, Trey and Matt's stances on a lot of their older episodes have changed over the years, including whether or not it's OK to use "f*g" as a general insult as long as you're not directing it at gay people. In one of the Season 20 episodes, when Gerald was in his internet troll phase and having his conflict with DildoSchwaggins over what's an OK reason to be an internet troll, Gerald asks Dildo "Haven't you ever just yelled at someone on the street that they were a f*g for no reason?!" and Dildo says "I remember BEING called a f*g on the street for no reason." They don't need to make any big grand gestures to show a shift in mentality, just do little things like that in episodes that come after an episode they've likely come to regret. It sucks when the SJWs are actually right about South Park getting something wrong, but they kind of were in the case of this episode. One thing they'll never be right about, however, is South Park's supposed both-sides-ism being bad for society. The left is NOT above criticism, and they don't only need to be criticized for when people on it get like Killmonger or when someone's lying about supporting a cause or only supporting it as long as they don't have to give up any of their comforts, but for the ideas of theirs that are conceptually bad and harmful. Basically, if you hate the 1/6 insurrection attempt but would support the same thing if it were done by leftists, you're part of the problem. And South Park and its both-sides-ism is both what put Comedy Central on the map in 1997 and what's barely keeping it together now. So yeah, episodes like "F Word"- disheartening if you're the type of person with very closely tied logic and empathy wires and/or like to think of yourself as an LGBTQIA+ ally. Most of the rest of South Park overall- a necessary part of the animation industry regardless of how one chooses to interpret its messages.
What do you mean Leftists who would support a Jan 6, "from the other side"? Many Liberals think It's illegitimate that the person who gets the most votes doesn't win the election. You can disagree with that, but it's not the same thing as saying, "If I lose it means it was rigged." or do you mean like actual Communists? Do you think it's hypocrisy for them to want a Communist revolution, but not a Fascist one? You're doing the "both sides" right now.
Actually because of this episode I still do use the F word that rhymes with bag Four groups of loud obnoxious bikers. My God when I lived close to Washington DC there were so many F-s on holidays.
Jared is live right now (playing the new God of War), on twitch, come ask him anything! (or just call him a ginger nerd)
www.twitch.tv/kalsarikannit87
Also, welcome to the discord community discord.gg/y5HaqzUWVX
The "bike-curious" joke in this episode is one of my favorites in all of South Park
There’s still the question of why a word like that became a word for simply bad and poser. The word was used towards one group of people that were so dehumanised and hated that it became synonymous with being bad in general. The fact that it changes is important but the gay community deserve a little credit for living with the attitude of “they suck so I’m going to call them what I call you.” We had the same thing in the UK but more on the nose; when I was growing up, anything rubbish or unappealing was just gay, because of its connection to a community that got shit on relentlessly.
I love Doug Stanhope’s take on the word “retarded”. Brilliant and hilarious.
I think I especially enjoy your South Park videos bc of the clear admiration for matt and trey. Defending their subtle philosophical points about the malleability of a living language was super insightful, but then theres also the relatability of watching a true fan of something reveal the even deeper layer about the creator's intentions like how they were using the court case to make their actual case irl.
And just another data point for your, but I'd also watch a longer, more off the cuff take of stuff youre really passionate about. Maybe more along the lines of rlm's half in the bag/re:view stuff. Great video
"The F Word" is one of my favorite South Park episodes, specifically because of the reasons you gave and because it's just hilarious. The way in which the characters struggle so hard to change the word's meaning to fit their agenda is both hilarious yet seems accurate
The bike-curious part was the best imo
*Jared Revisits South Park*
Symbiotic - Study of Sign and Symbols 1:33
Pen - 🖊
(Penn - 🪄)
(William Penn - (Pennsylvania)
2:58 Defending oneself against Allegations and Slander
3:43
1. Signifier
2. Interpreter
3. Signified
4:24 Physical Resemblence
1. Icon: A Signifier,
2. What’s on the Icon: The Signified
3. Interpretation: the connection
4:43 Index
• Smoke suggests a Fire 🔥
• All Fires include Smoke
• Do All Smokes include Fire?
4:55 The Symbol
Letters, Sound, Object
5:45 Dictionary Studying 📖
The Dictionary Definition changed over time
7:12 F Word multiple usages
8:04 (Stop Interpreting on top of my intended Interpretation?)(ask what I mean when I use the term, don’t tell me what I am saying?)
8:49 The Last Act
• Catching up to new meaning
9:44 Constant Diligence
• Responsibility & Effort
• Large Extremely Complex Situations
I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but I really appreciate how you're able to discuss so many topics while... the analysis and psychology, and the love of film stay in the forefront, instead of judgement or ego.
Even during the handful of times I haven't agreed with your conclusions, I was still engaged enough by the discussion that agreeing/ disagreeing never felt like the point.
Anyway, I was spoiled by all the many videos and podcasts back then, and I'm glad I still get to hear you, even if it's less frequently.
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This episode specifically though: Growing up in the 90s, this term was absolutely used as a slur and "bad" simultaneously, and I would never feel comfortable saying it.
In Venezuela, the F word is used as Bro, it is use with you closest friends.
As a translation student studying people like Saussure and Barthes and also a big South Park Fan I really really this video! I've always loved this episode but you really made me love it even more
Funny enough, my favorite South Park episode is Season 11 Episode 2, “Cartman Sucks” which is the one where Butters gets sent to a gay conversion camp. All of the commentary in the A-plot is so poignant, powerful, and brutally hilarious.
That reminds me of the episode that is basically a brother to this one and it's "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson"(S11, E1). They explore the failed approach of "white guilt" and how it can be more damaging in the long run, at least part of the episode does
Even just in my lifetime the meaning of the word "queer" has changed. When I was in high school in the late 90's and early 00's, "queer" was always a pejorative. Now days it's even included in the pro-gay acronym LGBTQ+ and is given to the humanities subject Queer Studies.
The academic subject of Queer Theory was created in the 1960's. I don't disagree that probably everyone in your highschool in middle America in the 90's used it in a negative way. But it's not something new.
Yeah just not saying something is gay but meaning it way different, or even retarted.
I assumed we'd be talking about 200 and 201, glad we weren't
it also rhymes with baguette.
This... this is... making insanely good sense to me.
I remember the movie “Dude, where’s my car?” They used the “f-word” and it was no big deal- nowadays it’s a cancelled word. It definitely had a different meaning.
Having Big Gay Al use the "F" word doesn't accomplish anything. Because a real gay man isn't saying it. He's a character created, provided words by, and voiced by straight men. He's a puppet to make it look like "even gay people don't have a problem with this word anymore, so let's just get real." But not actually being a real gay man, there's no way to get real with his message.
I like South Park a lot, and I like South Park's take on gays, gay rights, and the intersection between the rights of gay people and other groups (say, Big Gay Al being kicked out of Scouts for being gay). I like their refusal to conform to knee-jerk politically correct thinking. But there's nothing clever about the argument being made in this episode, and using the hyper-intellectualized logic of semiotics to evade what is pretty flatly obvious--it's an offensive word to nearly all gay people that for some reason a number of straight people want to pretend isn't offensive so they can keep using it--is exactly the sort of belabored effort to justify a wrong that South Park usually lampoons.
It doesn't really matter that historically the word has had various definitions. What matters is that right now, still today, it is used heavily to mock gay people. To the limited extent that there has been a cultural transition from an insulting word meaning "gay people" to an insulting word meaning "laughably ridiculous people" I suspect only happened because of the homophobic connection that gay people are laughably ridiculous, so the word used to attack gay people can be used to attack other laughably ridiculous groups. Why go along with that? Even if you never meant the word as a homophobic insult, isn't the fact that it is still mostly used that way and that basically every gay man alive has had the word hurled at them as an insult at least once, if not multiple times, enough reason to maybe think of removing it from your vocabulary?
Thanks for the thoughtful response! Regarding your last point, about retiring the term: my concern is that attempting to retire terms only anchors them in the hateful meaning. Think of the word queer, which not too long ago functioned similarly as the f-word in its hateful contexts. But instead of retiring it, an academic discipline rose to prominence using it in a different context, and now, the word has been largely liberated from the hateful meaning. Today, people proudly self identify with the term.
Now I’m not saying we should do the same the f-word. It’s worth mentioning that the show no longer uses the word and I agree with the commenters who say that knowing that people use a variety of interpretive contexts, it’s responsible to use other terms. But retiring terms, suspending nuance, and insisting that words be interpreted in their most hateful contexts when there’s little evidence of hate present, doesn’t actually help in the fight against hate. I fear it does the opposite.
@@JaredBauer I appreciate your response, and I understand what you are saying in the broader sense of taking the most extreme meanings of words and trying to put a ban on expressions that can have genuinely multiple meanings. But I don't think your analogy with the word queer works. After all, that word was was reclaimed by _gay_ people in academia, not straight people who didn't want to let go of a word they liked to use, which seems to be the case with the "f" word.
And I can't go along with the phrase "retiring a term" in this case, as if it was once perfectly okay to use this word and totally non-offensive until an extreme PC mania took over cultural discourse (I do think an extreme PC mania has taken over cultural discourse in various areas, though; just don't think it's the case here). It has had its current meaning as a gay slur since at least the 1930's, long before any of us were born, and continues to be used primarily as a slur term for gay people. Apologies for repeating myself, but it seems to me the only reason it works as an insult for non-gays is because the person hurling the word knowns they will be offended to be lumped in with a designated despised group (gay people).
Thanks for the discussion, though, and thanks for this channel. I enjoy your content. Just don't agree with you on this one. No biggie. This is part of what the exchange of ideas is about.
I laughed so much i cried when I watched the episode. It was one of the funniest episodes ever. Also, it is a problem that you can not say the word without causing harm. 🤔
Oh man this is an unreal episode 😂 love the breakdown Jared
heyy south park is back!!
Hear, hear!
I think you should look up what Noam Chomsky has to say about semantics. Extremely interesting. He’s the greatest linguist ever.
I agree with all of your points, but can South Park (or any one entity) manufacture change to the meaning of a word? Wouldn't it take wider usage, similar to the evolution of the word queer through academia, to change the meaning in everyday use?
I don’t think South Park ever has changed the meaning of a word. That wasn’t what I was trying to suggest. It was more that South Park was making the case that its previous useage of the term was not hateful in intent, and among certain relatively prevalent contexts, in impact. But entertainment CAN coin new terms with unique meanings! Remember MILF from America Pie? I think Michael Jackson is largely to credit for taking the word “bad” and making it mean “good” in the 80s/90s. So there’s nothing about SP as such that would prevent it from POSSIBLY doing such a thing, I just don’t think it ever has happened.
@@JaredBauer Ah very true! Thanks for the response. I see where you are coming from.
As for the media coining new meanings... I have to wonder how many times the media has internationally created new meanings vs the times culture has adopted phrases from media because it resonates with people. I'm reminded of the phrase "fetch" in Mean Girls. Or anytime an aspiring influencer tries to go viral. But now that I think about it, the top marketers have probably figured it out and I'm none the wiser haha
Like number 666 reporting in! 😂
What do you make of the Louie episode where this word is discussed?
Great vid
What’s up wey
I had to call a certain friend so could complain w ribald humour on topics bc you can’t just do it now and everyone knows it’s just humour. Everyone is so uptight now.
Jared you need to reach philosophy at a high school or college. You’re great!
Jared can you PLEASE do Rick & Morty, I miss all your old commentary.
Fascinating. In the first thirty seconds of this video I thought for sure it was going to be about "With Apologies to Jessie Jackson". Now you've got me wondering what the distinction there is. To me as a millenial, the first time I in the real world took my internet-language out, in front of a gay coworker, was the last time (I was 18 at the time). Whereas for the N word I never used it. Yet, at the age of 33 looking back on it, I see both words as equally harmful (though I have friends who'd passionately disagree that words can be harmful in any real sense), and I avoid using either of them.
Then again, as I think about it now (and now also thinking about the current discourse around the "R" word), there was a time when I agreed with Michael Scott's opinion on this: You don't call retarded people retards, you call your friends retards when they're being retarded. Which I think was said in the context of talking about the F word.
I don't believe they use that word on South Park anymore. So they kinda lost.
This is an interesting topic and I learned a lot about this, and also I find it interesting that the black community has grappled with this exact issue regarding the N-word. If I were to write or produce a video in relation to that topic, would it be okay if I used your video as a reference?
For those who see homosexuality as a bad, disgusting, repulsive thing, they pejoratively referred to gay people as "faggot."
When referring to non-homosexual people they don't like with that word, it still carries with it the insinuations and values of the prior usage. The confusion of the bikers is not something that reflects reality. Irl when someone uses that word, the one who says it knows that they're weaponizing homosexuality and the person being called that word knows that they're being called a himosexual in pejorative way, and that link to homosexuality is what's intended to be offensive.
There are spaces where gay people use that word amongst each other as a part if their humor, and for many of those who do, it's a method of acknowledging and healing from social trauma.
White people *shouldn't* use the n-word, straight people *shouldn't* use the f-word.
I didn't see the episode of South Park, as I don't watch TV or streaming services. But unless the episode included a discussion as Jared spoke about @9:20 onward about the pitfalls of using pejoratives like the F-word and similar, then their treatment in the episode seems self-serving. When I grew up in late 1950s through the 1960s, the F-word had the serious meaning of homosexuality in it's worst connotation. The sting was that it pejoratively referred to homosexuality as being bad and disgusting. And for many homosexuals, that sense of the word has NEVER lost that sense and morphed into something non-specific similar to bastard or son-of-a-bitch. Sometimes with some gay communities or individuals, the F-word has been adopted similar to the way the N-word is used among Blacks; from within group it is OK but not coming from without.
I never use the F-word and I am not afraid to tell others it is probably unwise to do so. Personally, I think the F-word needs to be retired.
I understand what you mean Jared, but I don't really feel like they "prove" anything here. It really just comes across as beggarly, at least to me.
I still really like the idea behind the episode, but sadly in the real world, the term is still used for hate, specifically against Homosexuals, and while there was a movement to try to divorce the term from it, since we all stopped using it, now the only ones that still use it are those using it as a homophobic slur.
However since I wanted a nice catch all word for people being that particular special kind of asshole, I've adopted C*nt myself.
Don’t you think it’s funny that you can’t say the word? According to you it’s just a word but you’re afraid to say it. Turns out things can and do change. Are you telling me philosophers who didn’t live in our world are wrong? Wow
If I say "orange" means "blue", and I call you an orange and you understand I mean blue, I haven't proven that the meaning of the word has changed. You can understand both what someone intends to express and also know that they are making an incorrect statement. It's dishonest to suggest the F slur was not used at the time in a homophobic way. It might not have been literally calling someone gay, but it is saying that they are like a gay person and that it is something bad to be. It's like trying to say the N word wasn't racist against black people when it was being used against an (White) Irish person.
Can all people in left-YT please start educating everyone about both the: (1) difference between right-authoritarian vs. right-libertarian; & (2) difference between left-authoritarian vs left-libertarian? It’s long overdue. People aren’t cattle or sheep: They will understand if we educate them.
Though we need to educate (& learn) about all the nuance.
For example:
Two different left YTers, Step Back & Anark, who both released videos this past month on this topic, made horribly inaccurate videos on the subject. Just atrocious: They both expressed basically no interest in logic or empirical truth. We are in a deplorable state for left YT…
@E how is the political compass meme based on either logic or empiricism? It's especially ironic since it's mainly used by the people who are, or at least act like, edgy middle-schlooers from South Park, whose arguments are the rhetorical equivalent of the game of "I'm not touching you."
@@JebeckyGranjola You have to do your research. Takes 2 min of ggling.
And you have to be more analytic than that if you want the best political model that reflects true reality:
The recently discovered 2-axis political model is the most logical, empirically sound & practical political model humanity has atm. You can’t refute that, this is what reason shows.
@E Is it rational, or is it empirical? Do you know what that means? Those things are the opposite of each other. I can't refute it because you have not demonstrated any propositions to be refuted. Saying it's the best is a subjective value judgement. I'm asking HOW.
This reminds me of when a teenager will say "well who decided that *insert any swear word* actually means what it means, it's just a sound and sounds are not offensive.
I hated this episode at the time, still don't like it. Using the word in such a manner is still rooted in homophobia, even if that isn't the intended meaning, and there are plenty of word choices that aren't rooted that would work better.
ruclips.net/video/Rfnz32eOpS4/видео.html
My opinion has changed a lot over the years since I was a teenager. We used to say something was g*y as a negative which wasn't specifically used to be demeaning to LGBT people. However, I now understand how we used the words "g*y" and "f*g" to insult people because it was demeaning to be referred to as a homosexual.
I understand context in this episode that it is just being used as an insult like jerk, but I think considering the history of its usage, it should probably not be used this way any more. I consider myself very non-PC when it comes to comedy but in everyday life I am careful with word usage to not cause unnecessary offence.
This episode is a dumb persons idea of what a smart argument is. Actually, "dumb" is a perfect example of a word whose meaning actually changed; of course it originally meant intellectually disabled. Every time the word for the neurological condition would become a pejorative, they would come up with a new word. Then the new word would be taken up as an insult, and another new word would be used, etc. It's called the Euphemism Treadmill. If it was about that, it would actually be smart and clever.
I agree with a lot of what you and Jebecky are saying. Problem is, if you retire a term, you anchor it in its hateful meaning, which only gives it more toxic potency when people use it. We want to be mindful about what we say as to not cause harm, but also be aware that words can be liberated from hateful meanings. We want to create more benevolent and inclusive meanings, not police arbitrary signifiers.
@@JaredBauer Thanks for your reply. I get what you mean about liberating words from hateful meanings like queer. I loved this episode when it came out and I still do. But some part of me still feels wrong about using words like that. In fact, I don't think I've ever said f*g/f*ggot to anyone because I believe they're equivalent to the n-word. I cringed a couple years ago when a 19-year old girl said something was g*y. Can you elaborate a bit on creating more benevolent and inclusive meanings?
@@JaredBauer I think a big problem with your argument especially pertaining to this episode is that they're still using the word as a pejorative maybe not directly towards gays but the fact that words like "gay" and "f@g" are used interchangeably with stuff that is bad, gross or lame means it's still used in a homophobic context. I would be more inclined to agree if we for example started using gay as a term for being happy.
I feel like this episode and "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" have messages that, while both at least a little bit true, "Jesse Jackson" a little bit more so, contradict one another. "Jesse Jackson's" was that you can't truly understand just how offensive it is to have the n-word directed at you unless you're Black, so it's best to sympathize with that and avoid saying it, while "F Word's" is that the meanings of words change over time and something that was once offensive might not be anymore because people collectively decide to use it differently. However, most would say that that hadn't happened with "f*g" as much as Trey and Matt liked to think it had; if anything, people decided it was more offensive than it used to be. Not to mention the only reason why it was ever a general insult in the first place was because of it originally being a slur for gay/unmasculine/womanly men (contrary to somewhat popular belief, "f****t" didn't become a gay slur because of gay men being thrown onto burning piles of sticks, but because of gathering kindling generally being seen as a woman's job in old times, the wires of that line of thought got crossed with ones of masculinity, and that's how it became a gay slur). I don't think you can take the stance on slurs positied by "Jesse Jackson" for some slurs and the one posited by "F Word" for others. Like Kyle said in "Cartoon Wars," "either all of it's OK, or none of it is." And the stance from "Jesse Jackson" is probably going to get you a little bit less punched. I don't think that Trey and Matt need to apologize to GLAAD for making this episode (and as far as I'm concerned, GLAAD is a wannabe state liberal organization that wouldn't mind if the Western world were ran like a pro-LGBTQIA+ version of IngSoc from 1984), but I don't think that they, or most other South Park fans, should hold it up as an example of a great South Park episode. Like the stuff with ManBearPig as a climate change allegory, Trey and Matt's stances on a lot of their older episodes have changed over the years, including whether or not it's OK to use "f*g" as a general insult as long as you're not directing it at gay people. In one of the Season 20 episodes, when Gerald was in his internet troll phase and having his conflict with DildoSchwaggins over what's an OK reason to be an internet troll, Gerald asks Dildo "Haven't you ever just yelled at someone on the street that they were a f*g for no reason?!" and Dildo says "I remember BEING called a f*g on the street for no reason." They don't need to make any big grand gestures to show a shift in mentality, just do little things like that in episodes that come after an episode they've likely come to regret. It sucks when the SJWs are actually right about South Park getting something wrong, but they kind of were in the case of this episode. One thing they'll never be right about, however, is South Park's supposed both-sides-ism being bad for society. The left is NOT above criticism, and they don't only need to be criticized for when people on it get like Killmonger or when someone's lying about supporting a cause or only supporting it as long as they don't have to give up any of their comforts, but for the ideas of theirs that are conceptually bad and harmful. Basically, if you hate the 1/6 insurrection attempt but would support the same thing if it were done by leftists, you're part of the problem. And South Park and its both-sides-ism is both what put Comedy Central on the map in 1997 and what's barely keeping it together now. So yeah, episodes like "F Word"- disheartening if you're the type of person with very closely tied logic and empathy wires and/or like to think of yourself as an LGBTQIA+ ally. Most of the rest of South Park overall- a necessary part of the animation industry regardless of how one chooses to interpret its messages.
What do you mean Leftists who would support a Jan 6, "from the other side"? Many Liberals think It's illegitimate that the person who gets the most votes doesn't win the election. You can disagree with that, but it's not the same thing as saying, "If I lose it means it was rigged." or do you mean like actual Communists? Do you think it's hypocrisy for them to want a Communist revolution, but not a Fascist one? You're doing the "both sides" right now.
Actually because of this episode I still do use the F word that rhymes with bag Four groups of loud obnoxious bikers.
My God when I lived close to Washington DC there were so many F-s on holidays.