Configuring Filter Offsets and Using NINA Plugins
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- In this video, we will look at how to configure Filter Offsets to save us time during imaging runs. I'll show you how to do this manually but also take you through using the new plug-in feature within NINA v1.11. The plug-in we will use will be Darks Customs from darkarchon. In an upcoming video, I will show you how to use Filter Offsets and other features within the advanced sequencer of NINA to create very efficient imaging sequences.
NOTE: In the sequence I use, you can remove the Slew to RA/DEC command as the Center command already does a "Slew then Center". And honestly, as long as I’m targeting some stars, Center isn’t needed either. ;)
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For more of my Astrophotography related content, go to:
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-------CHAPTERS-------
0:00 - Introduction
0:24 - Understanding Offsets
3:16 - Using a NINA Plug-in for Offsets
9:47 - Test Sequence
11:26 - Wrapping Up
Love your videos. Clear, concise, no annoying intros or music. Just perfect.
Glad you like them!
Loved this. Thank you so much for educating with clear concise, and highly effective videos. My love of astrophotography has grown because of your efforts with these videos.
So happy to help!
Chad, a friend and I were trying to think of who you reminded us of and it finally clicked, Jonathan Frakes. A uniform a communicator and a trombone in the background that would be epic. That is the only thing I can think of to make your videos better. thanks.
That is absolutely hilarious. I am proud to say I do not own a Star Trek uniform, commander or otherwise. LOL! I may be able to find someone with a trombone though…
I'm pretty sure Dark Archon is a prodigy. The EZ scripts in PI are pretty much amazing, and now this incredibly useful plugin in NINA. I will definitely be installing this and running it on my next clear night. Great tutorial!
Ya, he is very helpful for sure!
Thanks for great explanation. Enjoyed this video very much.
Thanks!
You make really very good instruction video's, top Chad !!!
Thanks for watching! I’m glad you feel it helps. Clear skies!
Great video as always Chad.
Thanks!
I am just getting into NINA, thanks for your videos they are excellent. Have I got this right regarding temperature changes and offsets? Having set up the offsets I start the night running AF on the reference filter, it could be any filter but probably the Lum because its fast. Other filters will then use that Lum position + appropriate Offset to go immediately to the correct focus position. To allow for temperature changes during the session I set the sequence to AF on change of temperature (I usually use 1 degree) but also specify the Lum filter to be used regardless of which imaging filter is currently in use. This will refocus using Lum at the new temperature, and then apply the offset to whatever filter I am using at that time in the sequence. As an additional safety check I get the sequence to monitor HFR and if it triggers an AF it will again set to Lum to run an AF, then go back to the imaging filter and apply the offset.
thanks for the explanation on the Darks Customs plugin, I really hadn't researched it yet, although I did install it. Up to this point I haven't had good results from trying to use Offsets. I never felt like I was getting optimum focus through out and entire run of imaging. I have always wanted to dig back through my logs and try to determine the amount of time is used with autofocusing with filter changes. If I could ever get any clear skies I might experiment with Offsets again. Still loving the new sequencer though.
You may just try to run through the offset plugin and see if the values differ from your previous ones. Maybe even raise the loop count to 4 or 5 to get a better average across more runs. It will kill a night of imaging due to the time it takes, but it could be worth it in the long run. Also, make sure your autofocus is as good as it can be. The new R^2 threshold in 1.11 can give you an indication of how good each run is. I have a few other tips/tricks when using offsets that may help that will be in an upcoming video on efficient imaging sequences so stay tuned!
@@PatriotAstro Yes, I definitely have optimized my guiding with the new R^2 threshold, and I have had a chance to do some comparisons with past focusing, so I feel pretty confident in my autofocusing runs. As I mentioned, I would try to review my logs to see how much time I'm spending on filter change autofocusing. Granted I only had one night, and had to stop early because of clouds. My sequence was about 3.5 hours, with 6 filter changes/autofocusing runs. My average autofocusing runs 3 minutes, 24 seconds. So for just that (short) evening, I spent slightly less than 20 minutes autofocusing. I will admit, that's a lot of exposure time lost. If someone could spare a few clear nights for me here in Central Texas, I will certainly give this new plugin a try. Thx again.
@@yosmith1 That makes perfect sense. In an upcoming video, I’m going to combine a couple things including offsets and dithering in the advanced sequencer to save additional time beyond just autofocusing runs. The new looping mechanisms to give us some flexible ways to save time. Anyway, it may be a little while before I get to it so just keep your eye out for it.
Great video Chad I know you filmed this to years ago but I’m just getting into astrophotography , still got to buy a camera and Mount lol . But I’m going to start with a osc camera I think unless I’m convinced otherwise by the likes of yourself and others who perhaps think it would be better to go mono . Anyway I digress if you use a osc with the narrowband filters how would you calculate the offsets then
Thanks for the video. Itwas really helpful, very clear and to the point as always. Much appreciated. Just a suggestion for a possible future video. The smart meridian flip plug in? This would be realy useful to me and I'm sure many other people. I find the instructions bewildering. Perhaps I.m missing something really obvious. I usually am! Many thanks again.
I may have to look at that soon based on my new dual (day/night) setup since my solar imaging train is getting close to the tripod legs. ;)
Great video again, thanks Chad. One Question: will this work with an OSC and multiple Broadband and NB filters? For instance an L-Pro, Antlia ALP-T, Askar D2.....
Thanks for this very useful and didactic video. I am trying to install without success this plugin form NINA. I always get the same message Plugin installation failed! Tried manually and no success either, pity!
Double-check your NINA version. Some plugins require NINA to be up to date on the latest 2.1 version. Alternatively, a couple require 3.0 although I don't think this is the case with this one (and I don't yet recommend jumping to 3.0)
Thanks for all these very helpful videos - wonder if u cud make one on the exposure calculator using sharpcap ....
I get a lot of questions about this. It will likely be covered as part of a general 'Using and understanding the histogram' type of video. Definitely on the list.
Good video, and I may have missed it, but how does it know how long of an exposure to make with the different filters? Like 3 sec for Lum, 15 sec for Ha, etc...
Just a note. The meridian flip trigger does not work with Darks Customs. I had a trigger in my offset finding sequence tonight and my mount hit the RA hard stop and did not flip like it would with a normal sequence.
That is interesting. I never ran into it before, but I think I usually pick something far from, or right after, the meridian. Hmmm. Thanks for the info!
Hi Chad, stumbled upon your channel, great post! Do you if there is a way to configure the plugin to take the average of let's say three focus runs...just to be sure you have a true focus?
It is definable, and I would say 3 is the minimum. I like to do 4 or 5 myself. It is also intelligent to some degree about things like temperature along the runs prior to averaging. Look for my UPDATED version of this video as well, it has been improved and is easier to run now.
Great video, Chad. Informative, concise and to the point. BTW - your video on NINA autofocusing routine solved my focusing problems. One question on filter offsets. Given the backlash inherit in focusers (I use a Pegasus AFer on a Featherlight), how does the plug-in compensate for backlash during offset process? I understand that base focus is the Lum so as it goes through it's offset sequencing process on that filter and moves to the next (mine are LRGB.Ha,OIII,SII), how does it compensate for backlash as the focuser moves in and out for different filters? Does NINA account for this through the initial AF backlash compensation setting? Keep up the great work and thanks! Paul
If you have backlash compensation configured, it will apply it to every focuser movement when there is a change in the other direction. Every time. If you look at my video on building smarter sequences (ruclips.net/video/QImduaYb_2c/видео.html) I 'think' i talk through it a bit there as it relates to my suggestion of cycling through your filters, when using a sequence with offsets, in such a way that you keep the focuser moving in a single direction. You can look at the relative offsets and then order the filters from highest to lowest offset. This ensure the focuser moves in 1 direction and backlash compensation only needs to kick-in at the beginning of each cycle. Ultimately then instead of doing the typical L>R>G>B cycle, it may end up being R>L>B>G or whatever is required by your offsets as determined by the plugin.
thanks again for another great video. I am guessing that it would be best to do this all in the same night, so how much time would you allocate.
Yes just do it as one batch using the plug-in. I would configure it to run three or four times to make sure you get a nice average. How much time it takes really depends on your auto focus configuration. I guess you could just run one auto focus cycle on a filter and then multiply it times the number of filters then times the number of cycles to get an estimate of how much time the process will consume.
I'm curious if this has been run against supposedly parfocal filters such as the Astrodon 50 mm LRGB set. Some years ago I bought them for $900 to use in an OPtec IFW. Note, I'm waiting on a QHY 268M with CFW-L and OAG. I'm on a G11 Gemini2 with Ovision worm. And I have the TCF-S focuser.
Hey, I really like your video's, they are useful and to the point (sometimes a little too fast for non-native English people 😃). Anyway, I was wondering if you need to calculate the filter offsets for each setup? I mean, using the same camera and filterwheel with different scopes. Does the different scope (focal length) influences the offsets?
I would always reshoot them, yes. If the optical focal points change at all, it will need to be adjusted. I ran into this recently when I was trying to correct my backfocus length and removed 5mm from the optical train. That small change required new offsets.
@@PatriotAstro Thanks for the feedback. I'm gonna take care of it my next imaging session :-) Just another question. Can you run two different (and separate) instances of N.I.N.A. to simultaneously run different rigs on the same PC? For example: one setup with EQ6-mount and QHY camera, another setup with AVX-mount and ASI camera.
@@kdierick737 Yep. When you start the second instance, it will load another profile (you cannot load the same profile 2x). I recommend changing the color scheme of the 2nd instance to make it easily identifiable. Then, it just comes down to PC power, USB bus capacity, disk write speed capability, etc.
@@PatriotAstro Thanks for your answer. I think probably the latter part will be a problem. I run my imaging nights on an old iCore3 laptop using Windows 8.1
One thing that annoys me is that my NB are 3 nm filters and I need at least 12 secs for them to see much in order to focus. However, NINA gives all filters the same exposure length. Other than that, its great.
The default is a common exposure time for all filters, but under options > Autofocus you can override the time per filter for AF runs. Also, if you can get your offsets defined, you can just run AF with L 100% of the time and adjust from there with the offsets. It is a huge time saver.
@@PatriotAstro Thanks. I thought I had tried that before and it didn't seem to work. Of course, now it does. DOH!!
Once you have done this, do you set your sequences to give back to the L filter for focusing after a HFR increase? Also, I noticed you exposed for 10 sec for all filters. Is this the exposure time you would use for the L filter during an imaging session?
When using offsets (enabled), you define the auto focus filter to be used. As a result, when an HFR auto focus is triggered… It will use the filter you defined, in my case L. Then once you are back in focus, it will use the offset to move you back to be appropriate filter based on where you left off. The amount of time you use for auto focus per filter is something you just need to play with. I’m still sorting this out myself. Ideally do you want a short enough time were you get a good focus and don’t consume any unnecessary cycles.
Quick Question Regarding this. So throughout the night the focus point changes due to temperature. Will the offsets not change with that temp change? Or is it because the OTA is the same regardless of the filter, so the offset from the start would still be the same. Does that make sense? Now that I re-read it I've confused myself.. I've ran into AF issues mid-session and I'm a "Set it and forget it" AP'er. I happened to notice sometimes my AFR will fail and be way off which then ruins the entire night. I suspect it "might" be because I dont have my AFR setup correctly. Sorry if thats a lot in a single comment. Appreciate the content!
So, the offset, once derived, will not differ based on temperature ... unless the filter itself were to shrink, which will not happen at any temperature on Earth I think. :) BUT, and this is important, if you calculate the offset across a wide variety of AF runs at differing temperatures, that would cause your calculation to have error in it in the first place. As an example, at a constant temp, I would expect multiple AF runs to find a focus position of 800, 805, 802, 795, etc. But if you ran these are 4 temps over the night, they might have been 800, 800, 792, 780. The final averaged relative numbers will be different enough to give you a potentially bad focus point between filters. The updated plugin in NINA now has accounted for this problem during the calculation process (as well as if you use different focus times per filter). Certainly also use the AF on HFR Trigger (or AF on Temp Change Trigger) along with Offsets to keep the system happy through the entire night. Tightening your AF setup in general may help too.
I will try implementing this ASAP tho,.. curious as to why you disable AutoGuide during this calibration? Doesn't that give elongated stars? 10sec exposure wasn't long enough for my Oiii in auto-focus last night and maintain R2 of .7 so I will try a brighter object next chance.. I learn using your videos, thank you
Watch the UPDATE version of this video too. The interface for the plugin is a bit easier now that it runs out of the Imaging tab. Is some of your error polar alignment related?
@@PatriotAstro SharpCap reported FAIR on my PA 2min+/_ and my frustration with the EQ6R knobs let me think it good enough, I can get better but very frustrating (those knobs)
@@jameslyons3306 ya, some days it is no problem, other days it is a pain. This is the component I want automated! :)
Hey Chad! Another great video as usual. I did want to try to ask you about a problem I ran in to with this. When calculating filter offsets, whether manually or with the plug in, I get inconsistent results. My autofocus settings work. I get focus every time and stars are tiny. My backlash is highly overcompensating too to try to fix any that could be there. Yet, if I run an LRGB filter offset test, then later go back to L, not only is the L position off by a large amount, but the relative offsets between filters is off too. Dark Archon tried to help me, but was baffled by the issue.
A couple initial thoughts: 1. Could you try to methodically lower the backlash overshoot? I only ask because you said it is highly overcompensating. Maybe that would help. and 2. It may be possible that you have a focuser issue. Slippage, gearing problem, etc. When you think about it from a pure optics standpoint, it should be very consistent (within a reasonable range) as long as you don't introduce something like rapidly changing sky conditions (seeing or clouds as examples) which would manipulate the object you are trying to focus. Based on that premise, you are only left with application/focuser error. Since NINA is working in this capacity for others, we can most likely rule it out. Since you see it also in your manual tests, that points me to either the physical focuser or the focuser drivers/software. Hmmm, by any chance did you ever add backlash compensation in at the focuser software driver level? That may introduce additional movement that is 'unexpected'.
@@PatriotAstro That unexpected movement was it! Setting the backlash to zero fixed all issues. Thank again for all the great videos. There is little chance that you wont do really well with youtube! As someone that has worked with many of the major youtube channels, you are gonna kill it!
@@Cornerstone_Creative So happy to help fix your problem! Everyone in this hobby knows how frustrating something like this can be when it happens. Thank you for the nice comments, if you have any tips - just let me know! :)
Thanks for your detailed video. I am using NINA v1.11 #127. I am not seeing the Darks Customs plug-in as an available plugin. I have all the other plugins installed. Do I need to download a newer build?
It is very possible that is the issue. My next video that will likely come out tomorrow covers the update to this plugin. :) Since the new version of the plugin allows you to use it directly from the imaging page, and this capability was added to the base 1.11 nightly along the way, I'm guessing that capability requires you to update your nightly code first.
Yep, that was the problem. I have it now. Also, My auto focus curves for my LRGB look really good. My curves for the Ha SII, and OIII look very strange but the final focus numbers work ok. By strange, I mean there is an inverted V for 1 point on all three filters. I can send small screen caps of the good curves and the strange curves. Just wanted to know if you could give your take on this.
Looks like I just needed to add more time to these filters. Very good v curves now.
@@garybarr7116 Great!
I'm using a newtonian telescope, and each night I'm removing the camera and filterwheel to colimate the scope.
Will removing the camera and filterwheel mess up the filter offsets from the night before? (I'm not removing the camera from the filterwheel obviously)
I remove mine from my short refractor and also from my SCT as well and have not had an issue. I think you should be fine.
@@PatriotAstro Okey thank you! Great job with all your videos, they are super helpful!
Very interesting Chad !
Just starting out with NINA, I've installed everything I guess, but still have some questions
Do I have to install some third party software to do platesolving in NINA or is this embedded in NINA ?
I guess I need ASTAP or PLATESOLVE2 or something else ? Would be interesting to see a video about this Chad
On the NINA options/profile page, you should see the Platesolve section. Here you tell NINA what program you are using. I would recommend installing ASTAP and using that. Don't forget to add/install the ASTAP database after you install ASTAP (Either H17 or H18). Once ASTAP is completely installed, you just tell NINA in the profile dropdown and you are done. Make sure you properly setup your telescope focal length, etc in the profile as well since this info will apply to platesolving too. I will get to a video on this at some point for sure.
@@PatriotAstro Thanx Chad 👍
@@PatriotAstro Should I take H17 or H18 ?
@@siegfriednoet Typically, if you have a longer focal length scope you would H18 otherwise you can use H17. You can only use one or the other. There really is not a performance benefit, it is just about the database including higher magnitude stars in H18. That one does take more disk space, but I usually go for the bigger one anyway.
@@PatriotAstro thank you !
What about focusser backlash?
That’s part of the autofocusing routine. As long as you’ve configured auto focusing and backlash compensation, that will be applied to your offsets as the Focuser moves into position. Watch my ‘setting up autofocus quickly and correctly’ video if you need any help with that part of the process.
Hi…I will use the plug-in Dark Customs to automatically calculate the filter offsets….once created for Nina could I use these same offset values if I enter them in manually in SGPRO…would they work?
Yes, it should work fine. The numbers are tied to the steps used by your focuser. If you use the same focuser and filters, the numbers work in any application that accepts them.
@@PatriotAstro would the steps have to be the same number in the two software….and the backlash number also? ….so If I ascertain a particular number of steps and backlash using one software I can use those same values and the offsets in the other…right?
Yes. That is right, mostly... The numbers used by the software packages are applied to the drivers of the hardware (ASCOM or Native Drivers) and are more about the hardware used than the software package used. I say 'mostly' only as it relates to backlash because you are very like using NINA's 'overshoot' mechanism which is fantastic, but it is much more flexible than other backlash mechanisms in that you can define a larger number than the actual backlash and it works perfectly. Other backlash compensation mechanisms require more precise definition.
My NB filters are from different manufacturers. They are quite distant from each other in focus point. Is NINA smart enough to keep looking for the focus point even if it has to go outside of the 3 or 4 offset moves it would normally do during a regular run? I have been using SGP for a couple of years and it is incapable of doing this.
Have you viewed my NINA autofocus video and are you making sure your top and bottom HFR numbers are 3-4x multiples as a result of step count and size? I would assume that if you are hitting the 3-4x multiple, you should not fall out of the range even if using varying filter brands. I would start there on the configuration side, then see if it is truly an issue. Glad to help if you are still having problems after verifying the setup numbers.
@@PatriotAstro thank you for the reply. The focus points of all filters are certainly within that 3 or 4 offset moves. The problem I would have with SGP is the autofocus will not be smart enough to rewind again if there are not more than 2 focus points on one side of the curve. I am hoping nina can do that and get that missing point otherwise the plugin would not work.
@@hael8680 Oh, OK. You should be fine then. It will certainly move back to the other side of the curve if it begins to get lopsided during the process because of its starting point.
How often should we do this autofocus routine?
Do you mean redefining your offsets? Only if you make a significant imaging train change or if you notice it seems focus seems to be shifting. I have seen cases where focusers start to get slippage over time that requires adjustment to AF and offsets.
@@PatriotAstro Thanks for answering, Yeah, I mean redefining. I guess, lets say you have 3-4 nights of imaging it should be ok with configure once?
@@arnsteindale5531 Oh ya, the offsets are just measuring the effect of the photons passing through your filter-set so it will last for a long time.