No Drones Allowed? ISO is fake? What's the deal with Wedding Photography?
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- In this episode we are soaring high with Drone Photography, getting romantic with Wedding Photography and and we’re going to debunk that ISO isn’t real.
The Photo Nerds are:
Adam Karnacz (First Man Photography) - / firstmanphotography
Gary Gough - / garygoughphotography
Paul G Johnson - / @paulgjohnsonphotography
Please subscribe to our channels or visit us at - www.photonerds...
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Gents, must congratulate you on these podvlogs. 4 episodes in and looking forward to the next one already. Its quite refreshing listening to 3 points of view without a spat or condemnation. Maybe for future episodes, how about a guest speaker. For instance, on the subject of film and digital users. Lots of reasons why you use digital, but no thoughts on why some use film. A film user could balance the topic. Lots of reasons why some use Drones, but no one to say why they dont, etc. Cheers, Diz
Stella & Diz Disley thank you
Finally caught up on all the podcasts over last couple of days, when I heard you were doing this collaboration I was excited and I am not disappointed. For someone living in London not getting out as much as would like this further whets my appetite and makes me want to get out there. Perfect combination of subjects and timings that keep the interest throughout. Keep it up gents!
Matt Draper thanks Matt
You guys were far more diplomatic in discussing the iso issue than I’d ever be. Faulty methodology inevitably leads to false conclusions.
Gregory g Kelly 😂😃😂
I've listened to all of these on Google podcast but never knew where to comment so I'm commenting here. I love these! I'm actually looking forward to each release. It's great that you all have sensible differing views. Keep up the great work guys!
John Haswell Photography 😃👍
Adam hit the nail on the head when he said it was a case of getting too focused on the technical stuff. Tony Northrup (yep, i watch and enjoy his channel too) gets waaaay to hung up on the tech side of cameras and gear. Their channel has become more about gear than the actual photography.
For the wedding photography, I have a mate that is very much like Gary and Adam at the same time. I had the privilege to attend a wedding he was shooting. He did all the staged shots, then went into stealth mode and got some amazing candid shots. But more than that, he was like a wedding planner as well as the photographer. And he was there for the day. Right to the last man leaving, he was still shooting. The man puts his soul into it. It was a pleasure to watch. Definitely hard work though and hats off to all those that shoot weddings (or at least those that do it well). Great podcast again, guys. I really do enjoy this format.
Gentlemen;
I'm disappointed you did not address one of my main complaints about drones - noise pollution. I live in a large urban area, and the last thing I want to hear when I go out in nature to do landscape photography is the annoying noise pollution created by drones. Fortunately, here in America/California, drones have been outlawed in all national parks, as well as many of the California state parks. [Having gotten that off my chest, I want to let all of you know that I am thoroughly enjoying your Vlog. Great selection of topics. Keep up the good work!]
Franz Gisin - thanks for your support but it’s a real shame for the American Drone Pilots. 👍🏻
Hi Guys, another enjoyable vlog. I think the new point of view is better but suggest removing the chairs/mirrors to the right out of shot as I found myself looking at them several times during the video. I would also suggest putting the coke in a glass/cup as the red can draws your eye (also I don’t know if you would be classed as adverting that brand if it is in every video). I also enjoyed each of your takes on the subject matter:
- Weddings : I have been asked to do a few weddings, but I have never been brave enough as if it goes you can not re-live the day again. I also think that it might overtake some quality time with my young family due to mostly working weekends.
- Drones: I have recently purchased a mavic pro to get some unique perspectives. I have also tried some b-roll clips for when I eventually try to put together my first vlog. I have no defined plans yet though as I cannot justify the extra subscription cost for Premier Pro on top of my current Lightroom/Photoshop subscription. Too be honest, I currently have my Drone up for sale as I am saving for a photography trip to Iceland for my 40th.
Keep up the good work on the vlogs/podcasts. I enjoy the regular weekly listen on my journey to work.
I'm with the National Trust, one factor you've not mentioned is the noise the drone makes. There is nothing worse than being in some nice quiet setting and then have someone with a drone buzzing about disturbing the peace. CADW in Wales also a ban on drones similar to the National Trust.
Hmmm.....It doesn't happen that often in places where you are free of man made noises. I feel like that about a dog barking, or running up to my children because a huge portion of them don't respond to a recall command. This happens all the time and people think it's fine.
In the U.S., drones are not allowed in the national parks without a permit, which are only granted for specific commercial purposes. It's plain on every National Parks Service website, and it's to protect and maintain a natural environment for visitors and wildlife. Yet last year I visited the Grand Canyon and had to tell a family that they can't fly their drone. They hadn't bothered to check. I have no idea what the penalty is.
Penalty is a possible six months in prison, and a $5000 fine, and probable forfeiture of the drone. I encountered someone within the Great Smoky National Park at sunrise flying at Oconoluftee. It made me angry and I couldn't help myself, since I hold a "Part 107" license. I confronted the individual flying a Mavic and told him that I had his license plate number and would be happy to turn my photo of him flying the drone inside the park and his license plate over to the Park Rangers Office. BTW, he knew it was illegal, but he wasn't anticipating encountering a Part 107 pilot who might also be pro photographer to be there in the crowd also.
Les Thompson good job. 👍🏾
Absolutely love these discussions. One of the highlights of the week! Thank you for being so entertaining and informative in equal measures.
Another interesting podcast and nice to see the subscriber base growing. Also a great way of now driving, having this on in the car and being able to listen when out and about at work
Gentlemen; Three (mostly?) landscape photographers - and not one landscape image hanging on that huge/blank/white wall in the background!! [SIGH!!]
I believe we are watching the guys making a podcast.
Adam, the reason why the general public don't like drones is not fear, it is the fact that they are noisy and intrusive and ruin our enjoyment of the outdoors. I consistently hear other photographers say it is not about the image but about the great places they visit and the opportunity to get outdoors and enjoy nature, the use of drones is simply contradictory to that philosophy. If you can't see your drone how do you know who it is disturbing? I am not a fan of the National Trust but I agree with them on their ban, that said we live in a society where people ignore such rules each and every day so it won't make a difference whether the NT ban drones or not. Rant over!!
Yes I take your point but I feel exactly the same about dogs off the lead. There's more of them and they scare the shit out of my kids and people just laugh. Its always worse too in the more remote places where people think it's ok to have their angry 2ft tall mutt off the lead. Drones don't actively try and kill sheep either.
In reality the disturbance drones cause in areas completely free of all other man made noise is very minimal.
I see and hear many more quad bikes, boats, small aeroplanes, dogs Barking, people shouting, distant Road noise than I do drones.
@@PhotoNerds We are surrounded by things that irritate all of us to one extent or another. Defending the intrusiveness of drones by highlighting other issues that affect our enjoyment of the outdoors is a bit of a diversion really. Your vlog was about drones not dogs. Ultimately I guess we all have to rub along together and be tolerant of each other, I would just prefer to enjoy nature without the artificial sound of a drone above my head, as experienced for over an hour recently in Northumberland. Keep up the discussion on all things photography, it is great to share perspectives.
Enjoyed the discussion and the format.
Christopher Mohommed thanks Chris
I have given up flying my drone, finding somewhere thats both legal and where I feel comfy flying it is very difficult. I live adj to the Peak District which basically is a no fly zone. National Trust is no fly, anywhere with people or buildings is often no fly. I became so paranoid about whether I was legal or not, the odd negative comment from passersby, and being conscious of the noise I was creating in very peaceful areas took away all the pleasure. I couldn't relax and enjoy filming or taking photos with it so it has stayed in its box for over a year now
As an wedding photographer and ex member of the BIPP many years ago we often take the Bride and Groom and family to another location away from the guests. Allways shot on 120 film.
Loving wathhing the podcasts, its like the Clarkson, Hammond and May of photography
Interesting what you say about the National trust and drones, they also have their own strict rules concerning traditional photography!
AoToGo they do 😃👍
Like your pod cast/ video... No ego, just photo laid back chat. Well done guys...
Another enjoyable podcast. Drones arent allowed within 5km of airports (from 13th March), on Exmoor, Dartmoor and the Peak District, plus lots of other places. The National Trust just dont like drones full stop. I know that they have asked people who have published videos of drone footage over NT properties to take them down citing the bylaws - interesting to hear what the fine is.
Stephen Darlington thanks Steve . No one fined yet
Tony is the fountain of misinformation, stopped watching him ages ago :-) Love your forum fellas!
Jeff Rzepka - cheers Jeff 👍🏻
Tony Northrup is the classic view chaser. The more outrageous the claim, the more views. Any discussion about him or his claims plays into his hands, or maybe I should say “pays” into his hands.
Technical question what if the manufactures just put in a GPS system so that the craft would be disabled in areas where they’re not allowed to fly?
Talking about art, I did actually put this post under Adams last vlog (No reply yet) but I think my remarks are relevant to this vlog as far a interfering with images is concerned."Adam this is a very well put together vlog. I am 65/6 now and like you have spent most of my life in and around the countryside, I have lived in that environment and have full empathy for it. But my wife and I have lively discussions about my images. Now I am not an expert on the computer, but I might tweak my pictures in terms of contrast, saturation, etc, I might even crop the image. But her attitude is that the image is no longer representative of the true picture, as I have "messed it about" If you change the picture in any way I suppose it is true as we have created the image in the way that we want to see it, I think that there are two sides to photography now, especially with modern technology. We take a photograph, then we produce a picture, this has to be the "art" side of photography? Right?"
Love the podcast I’m normally working when it’s aired but listen to it in the pub afterwards. The wedding photos topic was very interesting to me having done several in the past but none for a lot of years very interesting that you shoot them on manual. Thanks
What a fantastic series of vlogs/podcasts this is..... really good idea and well balanced info from each of you, almost the like good the bad and the ugly I won't say who's who😉 As an intermediate student to photography using intermediate level gear (Nikon) Other than lightroom, can you recommend the best editing app/software for my Mac book pro to edit my raw files on please? (basically I don't want to pay monthly subs for software) cheers👍
Russw77 thanks buddy . Great comment
Re: Wedding Photographer. If a conflict photographer goes out for a week and comes back with nothing his boss will only ask if he is all right. If a wedding photographer misses just ONE shot his life will be hell for years to come.
3 at best average photographers saying how they would never use a semi automatic mode & always shoot manual. I have shot with most of the biggest named British landscape photographers & they all mostly use aperture priority.
I think they were referring to wedding photography primarily, not their lansdscape work.
😂😂😂 ok Gary . Nice that . Lovely comment .
Another interesting show. I think the noise that a drone produces in a place where someone has gone for peace and quite has something too do with them being unpopular. There is a lot of good drone photography being produced but there are times when nature, karma or something decides someone doesn't need a drone and poof it's gone. I enjoy these pod cast as well as the individual youtube channels that you guys have.
Don Huff thank you Don
Agree about the noise aspect Don. Thank you for your support 👍🏻
I'll start off with saying great video...I really enjoy this round table podcast type format., and you guys are all awesome. Having said that, I don't really understand why everyone is so triggered about the ISO video. While it's a very clickbaity title, he's not exactly recommending people shoot at absurd ISOs just because you can. He in fact said it wouldn't make any sense to do that. At no point was he making the argument that ISO shouldn't be a value in your exposure triangle, merely that it's value (which is supposed to be 'standardized' ) isn't exactly standardized across all cameras. At one point in your Adam says Tony's point is a consequence of being too focused on the technical aspects...but to be fair to Tony, he literally started his video off by saying that his video was just an interesting topic for camera nerds and that beginners shouldn't even watch. Anyways, looking forward to seeing the next video from you guys, cheers.
Scott Heaney good comment thank you
Just started watching you nerds !!..I follow you all anyway..good to hear you talking about things we talk about..how about a chat about older cameras as I use a Nikon D300s...thanks ...martin
I never thought I would say this, but 'well done' the National Trust, the noise drones make is intrusive in the countryside for people who go for peace and tranquillity and I wish more NP's would follow Dartmoor's lead and ban them … but that's a personal view and I can see there are arguments for them. Mind you, I don't like mountain bikers who chew up public footpaths … or people who don't pick up after their dogs .. or … but I do enjoy the chat … well done and Thanks!
Re: Wedding Photographer. Have you seen Kevin Mullins work? He shoots with Fujifilm X-series cameras and he does them in Documentary style. He's on RUclips. Look him up.
My biggest concerns about the iso discussion is that the Northrups are often watched by beginners, they are major influencers via their videos and books. Photography can be a difficult subject to grasp for beginners that educators have a responsibility to ensure content is firstly accurate and secondly clear. I have been involved on Facebook in several beginners groups, whilst I am no expert in photography I am a keen, experienced hobby photographer and I know over the coming weeks and months their claims will come up in the groups especially with those struggling to grasp the exposure triangle. This false claim will lead to further confusion and will set many beginners back in their progression.
Referring to the discussion about Tony Northrop. ISO 50 on the Canon 5D MkIII, is it really "50". David Taylor the author of the Canon EOS 5D Mark III " The EXPANDED GUIDE" clearly states on page 54 that, Quote "The 5D MkIII cheats to achieve L (50). The image captured at ISO 50 is actually a 1-stop overexposed image that has had the exposure adjusted back normal" Un-Quote.
dave gellatly - it’s a strange one. I use the mkiii and I use ISO50. When lengthening my shutter-speed it’s invaluable to me. It works a treat so that’ll do for me 😁
Look I think in my humble opinion there is a small error from both sides...
Tony was testing with mostly iso invariant sensor... Which is becoming a trend with newer cameras...was his sample size exhaustive with enough data points... No... But that doesn't mean his observations are completely wrong or non sensical...Results will definitely be different if we are using DSLRs couple of years old..probably you can have Allyn Wallace as a guest & discuss more...He discussed about same in his video on A7iii review
Having said that.. Some of the points you guys raised are valid... I hope he makes another video.. Explaining his side more...
Great chat guys, really enjoying yhe format,,,,, thanks
The FAA has really tightened the screws on drones here in the states. Recent changes are that there WILL be use of signal jamming technology to disable drones that are operating without proper clearances, and that technology will be shared with local police departments. Additionally, here in the states, the FAA law states that if one's drone is used for commercial purposes (including monetization through RUclips) that you must possess an FAA Part 107 commercial pilots license. It's gotten to the point, where it's just not worth it to fly a drone for risk that one is breaking some law, local or otherwise.. :>/
Another interesting discussion. Re Tony Northrop I'm simply not qualified to make a judgment, but what you've said makes a lot of sense. I do still like his channel, though, and even if he's slipped up this time he is generally one of the saner and reliably helpful photo RUclipsrs.
You are correct regarding Tony Northup being wrong about his ISO findings. There are differences in two areas though. Lens t-stop (that includes the transmission properties of the lens makeup) and on Nikon the use of effective f-stop (exposure correct - includes the effect of internal extension in the f-stop) instead of everybody else using the nominal f-stop. The latter difference in macro photography can be up to 2 full stops at 1:1 magnification!
Hi guys
Enjoyed the video, especially Phoney Northrup, his video on Steve McCurry was disgusting and lost loads of subscriptions.
Keep up the good work. I used to do weddings 30 years ago, and had the privilege of knowing Denis Hylander a true artistic genius.
He was comissioned throughout the world, he played with light not equipment.
Ron
Ron Williams thanks Ron
Brilliant brilliant brilliant. The nub of it ... the ISO argument presented by the other tog is just plain daft, the laws and bylaws for drone photography are not far behind the ISO issue, but the wedding this is an eye opener personally for me as I have been asked to do a friends wedding in a months time. It has given me a lot of food for thought but the previous weddings I have done testify and support the notion of learning the camera, knowing the light and settings etc. Fab podcast guys. Keep up the great work.
Thanks John. Love your comment and glad you're enjoying it.
Absolutely spot on. This is not the first time I’ve seen Tony making some ridiculous claim. Thankfully you guys have the guts to show just how fake his claims are. I’m truly delighted to see this.
Drones? or not... One topic of photography I shot is freight trains preferably within the country side, one thing that I have noticed is the increasing use of camera poles to get a different prospective.
I have to say that some of the shots I've seen posted on social media are very good.
Beware of overhead power lines.😊
Tony tried to create a video on ISO invariance and failed. His assertion that modern day sensors are now completely ISO-less isn't accurate. It's not the first time he's propagated misinformation …. and it won't be the last. Oh, and by the way …. he's not a professional photographer. He's a RUclipsr.
Tony would make a fantastic estate agent
Great discussion. Some drone footage and B roll in general is fine but overuse sometimes leaves me with the impression it's a substitute for a lack of useful content; in fact I most often skip past it when it goes on too long. The privacy violation, safety, general nuisance and lack of common sense issues are another matter of course.
I keep wanting to use spot removal tool on 3 black dots on the wall above Paul's head ... Love you guys keep it up ...
Hey guys, really enjoying the show so far! I have two questions I'd love to hear your opinions on.
1) I don't want to ask the stereotypical "what gear do you use/recommend" but I would like to know what features/characteristics you look for when buying new cameras/lenses? Do you care more about megapixels or Wi-Fi? Sharpness or Chromatic Aberration?
2) What are your opinions on landscape photographers keeping locations of their photos a secret? Personally, I find it silly to keep a location a secret, but what are your thoughts?
ISO can be achieved in different ways - and they differ whether the manufacturer applies amplification in the analog domain or in the digital domain. Some sensors use a combination of both... What Tony Nothrup says about ISO only applies to digital domain amplification only, that's even false for most Sony sensors because they have certain steps (mostly 2) that are the result of analog amplification.
if you really think about it we do shoot kinda in an automatic mode even in manual mode . If you set your cameras ISO and aperture then mostly adjust through the shutter isn't that almost like an automatic mode ? I shoot manual but compensate with changes in light with the shutter (up to a point ).As for ISO it just an equevelent to an older technology . Digital ISO is really electronic gain control it is the equvilent of film sensitivity.
Thanks for addressing my question from last week. Good show, fellows.
You nailed what I felt about ISO. I notice that my camera getting warmer when I run high ISO and once in a great while I will get a hot pixel or two. So if it was processing after the image then why does it affect my sensor that way?
Drones, great subject I invested in the UK CAA course and now have permission for commercial work (PFCO) for the sole reason of still photography I personally think it gives a real unique perspective and managed to be shortlisted for British photography awards and OPOTY this year, If flown with safety in mind and follow the drone code of the country you are in, they are great addition to the photography rucksack, the Mavic 2 Pro is 20MP with a 1inch sensor is good bit of kit.
I have flown all over UK without issues, flown around Cornwall within millitary controlled airspace, give them a call let them know your coordinates and they are realy helpful. never an issue.
Luckily National Trust dont own airspace yet :)
Hike into the quietness settle down mute camera sounds enjoy the absence of modern life noise, three landscape photographers turn up with their drones, peace ruined. Pack up go home Fed up and sell camera, never return.
Very enjoyable and great subjects. All of real interest to me, some good thoughts and insight. Zen from Paul, smiles and cool from Gary, techniques from Adam 😊👍 already looking forward to the next. Easy now 😊
Drones - the same applies for overseas, I see alot of travel photographers just using drones in other countries without any regard for local laws or requirements. Thailand for example require a permit and insurance and it takes 3 month to obtain but travellers just fly their drones on the beach whenever they like.
Interesting discussion about ISO and Tony's comments, sometime he does do some strange videos and tests.
Priority modes are just that. If you mainly stick to an aperture for depth of field reasons, set your ISO then select a shutter speed you're basically in aperture priority. Priority mode and exposure compensation offers no less control than manual. If you understand how your camera reads light in a scene you can use either mode, riding your shutter speed or riding exposure compensation is exactly the same. The correctly exposed picture does not care how you got there, should it be such a big deal for photographers?
Loved the bit about ISO, and the podcast in general, having watched each of you individually for a number of years great to see you all around the mics discussing things.
In Aperture Priority you rely on the camera's meter to expose the image (even when using expo comp). Fine for landscapes when you have time to adjust expo comp. A nightmare in a wedding setting. Point the camera, in AV, at a wedding dress and it will dull that beautiful white dress. Point it at a pristine black suit and it will start to turn it grey. In full manual, if the light doesnt change, I can set it and forget and every image will be exposed the same.
My point was that knowing how a camera “sees” light in a scene is more important than which mode you use. The camera can only change the same parameters as you can, and if the light is changeable (which it is in a church both in intensity and direction depending where you’re standing front to back) there’s no real benefit over one or the other.
The dress and suit thing I find only really happens in spot metered situations, if you use any kind of matrix style metering (from my Nikon days) or the advanced metering in mirrorless camera’s with EVF readouts the difference between settings you choose and that of the camera are even smaller.
To be fair though, I think I’m so comfortable with AV etc because I went to the trouble of learning to shoot manual mode. You get to know when your meter sees a “correct” exposure (50% grey) and therefore the times you might need to adjust your exposure to make it actually correct.
Again not saying manual is wrong, just that AV/TV can be useful - neither is the be all end all 👍
I agree with James completely. I use aperture priority most of the time.
Photonerds, with exposure compensation you are no longer relying on the camera's light meter - you are overruling it, and taking full manual control. In aperture priority exposure compensation changes the shutter speed, leaving ISO alone. If you are a frequent user of exposure compensation, you are essentially a manual shooter. I would also argue that manual mode is not essential for portraiture, because you can use spot metering andtake full control what exactly should be exposed for. I use manual mode for when the camera's light meter no longer has the ability to give me a "base reading" - 10 stop filter for example. I just don't buy into the idea that manual mode is the only way to take control of your camera. I don't shoot weddings, but I imagine the light will often change very quickly and regularly, depending on the weather, thereby necessitating a change to your manual settings anyway?
"I am a thumbnail anal passage" (27m 30s) ......and Adam and Paul kept a straight face :-)
Hi gents. Really enjoyed the discussion around wedding photography. I've got huge respect for guys (like yourselves) who do it for a living. I imagine you'd need blinkin' large cojones the first time you do one. In terms of drones, I don't currently own one but have no issue with folks using them when they're out on the hill. They've added a fantastic dimension to landscape photography and they're a huge addition to B roll on vlogs. I can understand the furore following the airport issues but simply get bans in National Parks or by the National Trust (and like you, I'm a member). Unfortunately, I think the stupid minority will get them banned at some point in the future. Another cracking episode guys. Keep 'em coming please.
Enjoyed this one more than the previous 3, I think that's because they were a bit disjointed.
john Grainger just lads chatting 😃
I have watched your individual channels and usually enjoy the content, but this episode of Photo Nerds was so wrong in many ways, I have had to comment. I think you have got the Tony Northrup ISO argument completely wrong. Yes Tony does get his sums wrong now and then, but I think the point he was making was - ISO in digital cameras is no longer a standard in the same way that ASA in film cameras was a standard setting that you applied considering the film that you had put in your camera. The ISO setting in digital cameras is just another setting to change the exposure, not a standard. ASA and ISO were organisations that set standards not the name of a camera setting.
As for drones, I for one do not want to go out to a national park, up a lakeland fell or seaside walk and have to put up with some "RUclipsr" or some selfish "keen photographer" buzzing me with a over sized, noisy toy just so they can get a bit a B roll or a photo for Instagram. You all stated that the sensors on these drones are not yet really up to good stills photography anyway.
If you are going to allow people to fly a device in a public place you should be registered, as Paul, said they could badly injure someone if they hit them with the drone. I would suggest that most of the people who fly drones DO NOT know the regulations/restrictions that apply to flying drones, especially when they see people on RUclips and other online video casually flying their devices all over the countryside.
Enjoyed the chat from Michigan USA. Cheers!
No photos at the link chaps. I'de like to see them. Thanks
Hey guys,
Reckon I'm gonna get "windy" again...
Was Northrup shooting these disparate ISO's RAW? As far as seeing differences in exposures, looking at countless transparencies taught me to se in 1/3 stops. Tenths, no, can't discern, but thirds and half stops I see it. In this vid, Adam is about one-third "hot."
Using a meter? I used to, especially on set- using a strobe meter, but the practice was to always shoot a polaroid to show the art director. That satisfied a couple of issues. Was the exposure good and was the composition sufficient to meet the needs of the layout? Having viewed so many 'roads, the meter became redundant, if one was a good "guesser" for the initial exposure.
Weddings -- never enjoyed shooting them. I learned early-on, I dealt much better with a surly art director than a surly about-to-be mother-in-law! YIKES...
Drones! I bought a Mavic pro three weeks ago, and I want my wings. But to fly legally in the U.S. you now have to register with the Federal Aviation Authority and place your registration number on your craft in a visible manner-- new mandate as of 2/23/2019. Then Tennessee requires a liability policy and a permit for flying within the state. Oh, and any flying in a National Park is verboten. Whew! But, I'm still anxious to get into the air, just didn't realize the hoops I had to jump through. Even with all the regs, I think its going to beat hanging out the side of a shaking Bell with a Hasselblad mounted on a gyro head, hoping the strap is strong!
Pauly-G, your handgun/drone analogy is spot-on.
You folks provide great and topical discussion.
Thank-You,
Mike
I would have to strongly disaggree with you about what you said about automatic mode. Tony said most photographers shoot in auto mode of some kind. I would have to agree with him. He is talking about most.
Little CC: add topic specific timestamps on the description.
Janne Ranta - Agree 👍🏻
Another great podcast. I was wondering seeing as this pod cast is about all aspects of photography if any of the group had dabbled in Astrophotography?
How do you measure what height you are at with a drone? Is there an altimeter on the screen?
LegendaryFOGGY it gives you an idea yep
Any more episodes. Going cold turkey here 😜
carl edwards it’s now live 😂😃👍
Northrup's comments were overly generalized but unfortunately so were yours. There is a degree of invariance in some cameras which should be understood. A ISO standard would be useful for the same reason any standard is useful - transfer of skills/knowledge and compatibility. Sometimes it pays to slow down and reflect - which is a big problem with all technological hobbies. Moving so fast that nothing ever had time to sink in.
Yet another great pod lads keep it up
Great stuff guys, keep up the good work!!
Gentlemen - you introduce yourselves because it is polite. And (gasp), not everyone knows who you all are. While I do not subscribe to Mr. Northrup's channel because of the misinformation that pervasively appears (technical and other) and because I set a low store on high production values vs erroneous information offered, I have a comment on your podcast/video re: ISO. By the way, the outrage regarding Northrup's comment on 'mostly' semi-automatic shooting is misplaced - I strongly suspect that he is quite correct, considering that his intended audience is definitely not professional photographers. Is yours? (rhetorical)
Re: ISO. ISO used to be real - it was a standardized number referencing the size of the silver halide grain on film. No film, no ISO. Instead, the term was borrowed to refer to something completely different - gain. The signal (the analogue electrical charge information from the photosites) travels from the sensor through software and firmware: clocking, AD converter, signal processing (white balance) and finally a buffer before being written to the card. Yes, your computer/camera can heat up in a number of places, such as processors and batteries. Northrup's claim that upping exposure in post-production = increasing ISO on the camera is utter tosh. When gain (ISO) is increased it is completely different from upping the 'brightness' of a downloaded image. This comment is truncated for brevity - but ISO invariance is definitely part of this discussion (some comments are quite correct).
Conspiracy theories do not bear comment, other than being clickbait on RUclips.
Suggest viewing a new utube video by Dave McKeegan re: Mr. Northrup's video that will provide far more information and it is technically correct.
Sharon W im sure no one knows who I am 😃. Great comment thank you
Very interesting discussion. But when it comes to drones, I find them to be a noisy and invasive. I've witness drones flown dangerously with regards to people on the ground and it's no wonder they are a negative in the public's eye Yes, I am a pilot and am well aware of the the rules and regulations. The key word: public safety. A case where a few have given the hobby a bad name.
Peter
Interesting stuff Gentlemen. Just re drones, noise issue mentioned elsewhere but I fly my Mavic Pro (less than I did) and I have been places like The Quiraing and brought it down when people appeared in the area to save spoiling of the wildness of the place BUT though you'll never stop the idiots who fly irresponsibly, every drone owner should have compulsory public liability insurance. Registering a licence just creates revenue for govt and punishes responsible owners but insurance rewards the responsible owner by a) covering him for risk but b) also anyone caught without insurance gets ban/fine etc and hopefully takes out the fools...I am staggered that anyone flies a device that could kill someone without insurance and makes themselves liable for millions of pounds in compensation !!.... Re NT, I've done projects with the National Trust and they can be an admin nightmare so their stance is logical if frustrating and imagine they allowed them and say someone got injured/killed by one in the grounds of Knole or on Lindisfarne island?..it has to be the go-to corporate stance...good ol' H & S.. I also had an italian bloke flying one very low up (40-60ft) and down Elgol beach 2 years ago at sunset which destroyed the atmosphere of the place until myself and two other photogs had to practically threaten him (after we'd politely asked 3-4 times) to stop flying it........is Paul sponsored by the scarf company or are we doing a Crowfunding for a new fleece for him next week !!??
If ISO is made up, then why would the camera manufactures bother with creating L1.0, L0.7, L0.3 settings,such as in my D850, my understanding been they couldn’t name these settings as ISO because they didn't meet all the perimeters that define a ISO.
I’m loving this! I love the way it comes as a conversation. .. well done guys !
whiskeyturner thanks buddy
Hi fellas. Another interesting one. I’m not a big fan of Mr Northrup, and lately he seems to be getting worse! It must be very difficult to keep the large viewer base he has coming back time and again, but his reliance on defamatory statements and ‘click-bait’ is getting out of hand. Who cares what he has to say anyway?
Northrup is simply put nothing but, 'click-bait'. Hopefully his latest blunder will be his undoing.
I have never liked him. He comes across as a pompous ass!
Is there another episode coming soon?
Daniel Veazey on now Daniel
The general public's opinion about drones from a privacy standpoint is absolutely absurd. The same people who are out in city streets, parks, and beaches that are probably in the background of hundreds or thousands of cell phone and dsrl photos, yet all the sudden can't fathom the horror of the idea that they might end up in someone's image. Not to mention the fact that drones cameras by nature are the most technically limited, and are much much further away from people compared to other cameras that everyone seems to willingly ignore. Not to mention that if you're in a public area, it doesn't even matter ...anyone can take your picture straight away if they want and theres nothing you can (legally) do about it. And the drones that actually have the capabilities and insane cameras and tech that could actually 'spy' on people, are the ones that you'll never see to begin with. To be fair to drone haters, I do understand the noise pollution argument...no one loves hearing them buzz about when you're to enjoy some quiet. But, I don't like loud cars or people mowing their yards on Saturday mornings either. It's life, you can deal with 5 minutes of an insignificant annoyance in your life haha.
another great on lads see ya next week
Thank you for another great video guy's.
When’s the next episode guys?
6pm today!!
I watched the Tony Northrop ISO video too and found it confusing, thanks for a common sense explanation.
I think you gents should check out Dave MacKeegan's vlog on the ISO matter he covers it really well. In theory it should be called gain or multiplier but ISO was already understood by those buying early DSLRs.
Mike I watched it and the video was brilliant . Someone has linked it in the comments on here and I’d encourage anyone to watch it .
Hi Guys ! What's going on or not it's over two months since your last video have had a falling out over making the tea.?😉
Tony Faulkner we did one . Lol
Technically speaking minutes and seconds are 'fake' as well but we need some sort of scale. Tony lives here in CT, so I suspect the point of his video is he needs to cover his taxes. ;-D
I did shoot two weddings in the 1980s, it was enough.
I lost all respect for Tony some time ago when he started complaining to his viewers about them asking him for his camera settings. (BIG SIGH!!) Poor man.
I watch some of Tony's videos, but never trust his views as standalone. I often get the feeling he puts deliberately outrageous flaws in some videos to direct all kinds of traffic to his channel.
BTW, according to Angry Photographer ISO is applied gain to exposure (i.e. technically not part of exposure at all), occurring post sensor, and not (as Adam alluded to) modulation of sensor sensitivity. He claims the third aspect to the exposure triangle is signal to noise ratio
Tony Northrup's comments about ISO were a bit over-generalised. Many, but not all, cameras are close to being ISO invariant and you can shoot a few stops down and then push in post processing back to the correct brightness, without introducing too much noise. One big advantage of using an ISO invariant camera with a huge dynamic range is that you rarely or never need to bracket to avoid blowing highlights - just expose to the right (ETTR) and correct shadows in post.
The problem i have is that it is not true at all. The gain in invariant camera is done at the analog system and before it goes trough the a/d converter. So doing in post is not the same and will generate more noise. Even in his video you can see that
@@markkuys8928 The issue he raised, I think, is that you can, with some cameras underexpose by up to 5 stops and recover an image with little extra noise by pushing exposure during post processing. Folks using modern Nikon, Sony, Pentax and probably other cameras too can readily confirm that. Very few folks will understand the precise internal processes which allow that to happen and frankly I do not think that matters. Lack of understanding on Tony Northrups part does not invalidate his general point about ISO invariance.
@@andrewkay1146 I agree with you a little. But stating that most cameras have it is nonsense. Dual ISO is not invariance. Even in his own example you see more noise. He states things that people believe, he has to get that he is an influencer and that he has a moral obligation to tell the truth. He says that the companies are lying to us but has different standards for himself. What fool will shoot at 100 ISO en push it 5 stops if the 3200 ISO shot looks better...
@@markkuys8928 I think the only time you would consider it is if the ISO3200 shot did not look better because highlights were blown. I have checked out a Pentax APS-C camera that I use. The difference, straight out of the camera, between the ISO100:and ISO3200 shots was small - and practically invisible after post processing.
@@andrewkay1146 I understand. But you don't even know what the image looks like when you expose 5 stops under. You spray and pray at that point. If the highlights are blown at 3200 ISO then you underexpose half a stop, not 5 stops. If it works for your camera it is ok by me. But stating that ISO doesn't exist anymore is way off in my honoust opinion...
If I could leave some CC and this is just my opinion and probably most of these points you either know or are working on them... Work on slightly better audio, your single wide shot gets old when you have three people in the podcast..a tighter shot and maybe another camera angle that you can cut too, if you bring up a topic such as Tony's video ... it would help if everyone saw the video and even the fstoppers version and discuss it with more knowledge of what Tony's video was trying to do. I watched his video as well the one from fstoppers and I felt it was a deeper topic that was hard to talk about on your show as you just had to discuss ISO at a broad scope versus what Tony was trying to do in the video...not saying Tony was correct but it seemed half of the discussion was just explaining what the video was about to two of you then trying to figure out why Tony made the video and such...if everyone had seen it I think the discussion would have been more like the two different styles of wedding photographers segment which was much more interesting as it was dynamic and brought across better banter and knowledge. Hoping for the success of the podcast and just my simple comments on how it might be improved.
Tony Northrup is almost always wrong. Also he never provides his sources for the data he uses. You don't watch Tony for real info but for the laughs. He so way off on a regular basis that it is all laughable. Another problem with Tony he will NEVER admit he was wrong about anything.
For me it's ASA and will always be ASA.
brilliant again you lads are smashing it as for drones dont no if i would or could be bothered with one with the laws and all that and where i live i have 2 massive raf bases within 4 miles off each other and is it true that they are going to get people to take a test if you have one soon
I’ve only got as far as the iso section. But crucially your camera needs to be iso invariant for his test to be accurate. Nikon and canon cameras mostly arnt. Sony and fuji are. So his tests are true for those cameras. And yes iso is just gain. I’ll keep watching and shut up lol.
Gareth Danks very interesting , thanks Gareth
Great episode guys. Regarding drones..... I purchased a mavic pro and now a mavic 2 pro and very rarely use the video elements, almost every flight is for stills. Gary is correct in saying Dartmoor National Park has bylaws banning the use of drones throughout the park. Personally its infuriating, DNP is 10 mins from my house. If other national parks banned their use I could understand why Dartmoor would but its the only national park i know off with such a blanket ban.
I find myself using it less and less now though, just peoples perception I suppose. I have had a few people walk past as i'm flying and ask if they can see and after 2-3 mins been amazed of the technology and the perspective on offer. Thats great!! However its the bad press now that makes me keep it in my bag unless I know people are not around! Look forward to next episode.
I think the Peak District is the same as Dartmoor.
It really is such a shame. All they’re doing is upsetting the genuine users. The criminals will just fly them if they want to regardless of laws and bylaws. Annoying. Thanks for your support 👍🏻
Changing the ISO doesn't change a sensor's quantum efficiency although doing anything which results in the sensor running hotter is going to introduce extra noise. At a hardware/firmware level changing ISO does inform the camera about what maximum percentage of each photosite's full well capacity is expected to be used during the exposure. That may (my assumption) allow the hardware designers to optimise the operating parameters of the electronics to some degree. But running a test starting at ISO 25600 is ridiculous as shot noise will dominate and, to my mind, it means that Northrup needs to do his homework better!
At the risk of introducing egg sucking grannies to the conversation, for every stop of under-exposure compared to the perfect exposure one throws away a stop of dynamic range. I suppose that begs the question of how many stops of dynamic range one needs for a given image to produce the desired result on the medium of choice but at that point my brain starts to hurt! lol
Looks like Dartmoor National Park is the same as the Lake district regarding Drones. The interesting one is National Trust and the Coastal area's. Here in Devon they now manage, (not sure if the own) large parts of the Southwest coast path which limits drones flying here quite considerably. How far inland that applies I don't know. As you all agreed it is the minority who spoil it for the majority.
The 3 picture hooks above Paul G Johnson's head have lost their picture frames?
I do like a good debate, especially when Paul is playing devil's advocate, keep up the chat chaps.
The fact that you used old tehnology to disprove ISO processing is lame. Modern cameras have ISO invariant sensors but you are not taking it into consideration. Yes, Tony did not mention it, but he was more right than you are. You are talking opinions without experience and knowledge of modern cameras which makes this talk more entertaining but bad and misleading for educational purposes. And ISO is not a part of exposure in digital photography!!! For you "no evidence"means you haven't done any research because there is a lot of evidence (dxomark for example).
The ISO video was nothing more than Clickbait .. RUclips Revenues are falling it’s hitting bigger channels in the pocket.. as a result they will push out nonsense videos ...
Exactly, it's designed to direct traffic to his channel once other big channels post response videos
I dont know if ISO is accurate or not per camera but what I do know is this ...and it is a cold hard fact and I don't care what ANYONE says.
High ISO's are worthless nonsense.
Any ISO higher than 800 is a waste of time and to be perfectly honest above 200 is well dodgy.
The NOISE that higher ISO's introduce completely ruins a photo no matter how hard you try to remove it in lightroom.
The idea that you can take photos of the Milky Way, for example, using a high ISO is fine if you want a photo that looks like it has the pox!!
I also refute ANYONES claim that a 30 second exposure of the night sky is about right for catching the Milky Way or individual stars.
UTTER UTTER RUBBISH.
Even a 15 sec exposure will see a blurring of any star.
High ISO's are a gimmick they are for impressing the punters.
They don't impress me in the slightest and once you have your expensive DSLR you will almost NEVER use a high ISO.
Not unless you want crappy textured photos.
Now you can and will argue that a HIGH ISO allows you to capture that shot that you otherwise would not be able to get.
Yeah...woteva...thats fine if your a pap and your trying to snap some cheap celebs camletoe.
Other than that is has no use.
Oh and before you start on me, legendary landscape photographer Colin Prior said EXACTLY this in a film/docu about him.
AND...he was using a Canon AND... he wished they would remove all the worthless clutter on these cameras so that he could carry them up a mountainside without the need of a team of sherpas.
The clutter he refers to is all the needless tech which adds weight and the 'film' capability of said cameras.
They try to be all things to all men and fail at everything.
They are NOT good video/film cameras they are shit at that task, anyone wanting to used video will buy a decent camera made for that purpose.
They don't need any non manual settings.
AT ALL.
I mean ffs and nearly £4k a pop before lens costs who do they think is buying these cameras?
We use manual ONLY the rest can be binned along with all the video crap and useless High ISO bollocks .
These cameras could be a 10th of the weight if they bothered their backsides to make them for photography.
The video created by Tony was interesting. But maybe what it comes down to, and this is the cynic in me, is that he has achieved a very good way of further marketing his channel. But creating content which causes huge debate it then draws people back to the video which in turn creates views which generates revenue. But that is of course what we have to do these days to have a piece of the income pie.
I totally agree with you. With ISO, he described accurate results applicable only to ISO invariant cameras. He is therefore technically correct, but at the same time he knew it would stir up a debate and direct traffic and views right back to his channel. Clever, but slimey at the same time. Very salesman-like. I am in no doubt that Tony has a wealth of useful advice to give. But videos like "ISO is fake", such as the "you don't need a polarizer", Steve McCurry, and the countless "larger sensors gather more light" references have put me off him. It's difficult to dissect facts from BS. Can't stand him