There's another reason to run double special that is worth mentioning. The main reason I use double special over an exotic primary is that it may actually be better in this situation so that I can swap to a damage loadout that is using double special, which is always better (outside of Lucky Pants). If I were using a sunshot (which is better than an indebted kindness for adclear this season) I wouldn't be able to swap to a gl/slug for damage rotations
swapping weapons and load outs mid encounter is a little cheesy. the current sweat min max meta is stuffing your loadout with exotic and weapon swaps for all these specific raid encounters and dungeons and stuff. if an encounter can't be comfortably beat without constantly playing inventory simulator then it needs to be re-designed. however, realistically, i'll play devil's advocate and just say that bungie is pretty brain dead on some of this stuff. i'm sure they're aware but just don't care. the biggest problem with destiny is it has very little actual character progression so the only way to express additional skill or power is by doing these goofy things like swapping exotics to buff a super and then switching back to a utility armor or taking advantage of ridiculously obscure mechanics or hidden interactions that only people without a job tend to find. just imo.
I think using double special is also really dependant on your ability rotations and uptime. I play Void Hunter for exemple, so im using way more ammo than someone on sunbracers.
As another void hunter, this bugs me too. But that's why I'm excited about glaive melees being able to work with Stylish Executioner next season. Should hopefully be more ammo efficient
I play double special void hunter in onslaught (and other activities) and you just have to spam special finishers since you generate so many orbs. Also it helps to have a god roll indebted kindness 😂
I think your teammates dictate it almost as much. If I’m using sunshot and my partner in an encounter or my three man raid buddies wanna run double special I can cater to that and help them out with ammo generation
Hey Aegis, I don't know if you'll see this, but I wanted to comment and say that I enjoy watching your content. Even though I'm nowhere near the type of player you are, I still am able to understand and comprehend your more in-depth videos with stuff like DPS rotations and whatnot. Sending good vibes! :)
I've played GM nightfall today with indebted kindness (without lead from gold, only special finder), and I easily finished the GM without running out of ammo. I don't think lead from gold is a must, but its still good.
I’ve found it depends on the situation. Sometimes when you’re not cycling weapons as often to preserve dps ammo ammo can be a bit harder to come by. So lead from gold is another layer of protection, but you’re absolutely right that it’s not necessary by any means.
@@Trevoroxx im curious, what perk would you suggest? I’ve found that reload isn’t an issue, velocity and tracking is only a problem when learning how to use the gun, the gun is a projectile so offhand strike doesn’t really matter. That leaves loose change and lead from gold. I could see loose change being good but I’m skeptical the benefits are good enough.
@EggyWeggyIII impulse or enlightened action. I like to cool down a room by spamming half a mag of the sidearm, reloading, proccing volt shot to get jolt on anything big, then swap to another weapon like a fusion rifle (riptide, Scatter signal) or a heavy to hit it while it is jolted.
is pretty strange to see bungies constant attempts to make double special less effecient, when the whole double special thing happened because how god awful most legendary primaries are, so double special for me has been one of my favorite play styles, the style is still viable but its annoying how bungie keep s trying to nerf it when its their fault its here to begin with
they should nerf it. double special is honestly just unnecessary power creep. it's obvious that the intended gameplay loop is primary special heavy. primary for reds, special for yellows, heavy for bosses. but i also agree that they've been extremely lackluster on trying to enforce this. i doubt most of the developers and play testers run double special very often or honestly ever.
@@slime_ism that doesn't really mean anything, loot was getting a little stale and bungie needed to spice things up a very tiny bit with some slightly more exciting than average drops when WR dropped at a time when community sentiment was meh
I don’t think they’re trying to constantly bring it down, they just fixed a bug with heavy. Then releasing rocket sidearms and giving forebearance to everyone kinda says the opposite lol
I’m glad that primaries have recovered a bit from their sorry state last year, at least to the point where you’re not just throwing using one over double special. I’ll be honest, I don’t like double special, mainly because I actually like primary gun play and how it feels so I avoid double special if I can. I’ll always advocate for primary buffs for that reason.
could you try to sell me on Lumina? i see a lot of top players using it but I just dont quite understand it I know its damage buff is the best but you have to shoot all your allies to spread the buff, right? would you not be better off just using a weaker damage buff thats more reliable and dumping damage into the boss? also why i never liked explosive light. The more time you spnd during dps running around for orbs, the less time you spend actually dpsing
It's really for hyperoptimized teams that can make use of the 35%>25% buff, in most cases it's not worth compromising your damage to benefit others unless they are reliable teammates
FWIW Lumina also was onetapping Acolytes for me when the buff was up during contest Ir Yut. it genuinely hits pretty hard b/c intrinsic exotic primary damage and giving yourself the buff, and helping the team stay alive and do their damage was also useful. I think there were probably better options for the situation, but it worked well enough.
Hey Aegis! Just wanted to let you know if you didn’t already as I haven’t heard people say much about it. There is an auto reload fragment on prismatic - procs on suppressing or freezing a target! Something which the warlock transcendent nade does both of! Combine that with penumbral blast maybe? Or throw a turret out before BECOMING TRANS then you can get freeze off that and use arcane needle for an unravel?
Aegis, you have a very unique insight. What role do you think Glaives have in the sandbox currently, especially the endgame? What do you think they need to have in order for them to be worth using if they're not currently? I love that their melee functionality is effectively a primary weapon in-and-of-itself, nevermind the shield and shooting. And while we're on special weapons, I just want to say that I am unbelievably hopeful that one of these new rocket sidearms coming with TFS have Shoot to Loot with extra points if it can roll that WITH Lead from Gold, too.
Not Aegis, but if your offensive needs are covered by your other guns, there's some real crazy stuff in this game that gets tanked by glaives. (Like those stupid void homing shots from contest Nezarec that did like 150 damage through everything.) The shield is easily the best part of the whole setup--basically no other weapon in the game offers anything like it. I think the main issue with them in a vacuum is that their projectile kinda sucks. This was more true when they first released, and a lot of people haven't touched them since. Many have poor reload stats (Unexpected Resurgence can actually get pretty quick with Impulse Amplifier, but others have worse stats--and a lot of people dump reload when they craft glaives for some reason), the damage and reserves aren't high, and the perk pools so far haven't been anything to write home about. Getting into melee is a tough risk/reward proposition, and their projectiles have damage falloff at under 20m in most cases despite how hard it already is to land that shot at range. Vexcalibur is awesome when Void is good, but that hasn't been the case for a while, and the same holds true for Ecliptic Distaff. Winterbite is an otherwise incredible weapon hamstrung by taking up the rocket launcher slot and replacing it with projectile DPS on par with Conditional Finality or Forerunner. The class exotics have all gotten some buffs but are still pretty clunky to use. There still isn't one in the kinetic slot, which reduces buildcrafting opportunities substantially (I believe this is because of the guardian's portrait on your inventory screen--supposedly that thing is weirdly hard to code around). The two S16 glaives are joke weapons. There isn't an intrinsic-stunning exotic glaive other than Winterbite, and I suppose you could add the Voltshot or Incandescent glaives but those are not practical for the purpose. A reserve buff and a range buff would go a long way towards solving the issues. Winterbite could probably use some love on its projectile damage versus bosses as well; something like 20% would bring it up to roughly Thunderlord tier.
I'm really excited to play some of the glaive builds that people have been talking about this season (Triton Vice w/ Concurrence or Vexcalibur, Saint-14 w/ Action), and hopefully I'll get to try them and report on them next season!
Def important to keep in mind, that running double special can allow you to get "mercy ammo" where drops will auto go to you to refund the guns. Running primary will never allow this as it only procs when you are empty on everything, which can no longer happen as primary ammo is inifnite.
For hunter’s try assasin’s cowl with special finisher on a class with a melee that can get plenty of kills like stasis, I also run reserves, finder, and scout, and so does my main teammate, so we’re constantly making ammo for the whole team, but when I’m solo, I still never have trouble safely going for the finisher I need for more ammo
When I'm on Stasis Warlock, I near exclusively use Appetence, Buried Bloodline, and Dimensional Hypotrochoid. BB does solid damage against majors and the weaken helps a ton against bosses. The Devour buff plus Demo and Headstone (Whisper of Shards) on Appetence means I get tons of grenade energy for Stasis Turrets that help with CC and ad clear. DH has enhanced Field Prep and Chain reaction so it has tons of reserves, great ad clear, and high ammo efficiency (though for floating/mobile bosses I tend to use Typhon GL5). Can't recommend it enough. [Oh and the few times I play Hunter, i like to use Incisor, BB, and Hammerhead on Strand. I know more people have been talking about it recently but the Moth exotic + Thread of Ascent + Devour means I can hold onto Hammerhead's Rampage + Killing Tally buff for longer. Primarily for ad clear but still does good damage against bosses then BB hits hard and Incisor has good utility]
Y'know, I didn't quite appreciate Buried Bloodline because it took me so long to get my hands on it, but it makes Broodweaver in particular incredibly silly. You throw on Weaver's Trance and snipe red bars and suspending explosions are everywhere and Devour gives you the grenade back to do it again while also giving you survivability that isn't tied to Woven Mail or standing in a rift. We also just got the deets on the new exotic armors, and the Arcane Needle one is way better than the trailer made it look, so that's likely a natural pairing (I actually was using Nezarec's Sin just to double down on the ability regen angle, but it's not all that strong in the absolute sense, so I've been thinking about what else might be good). Throw in KT Supremacy and Edge Transit and you've got something cooking!
Ive been watching your stuff for awhile. I have soloed flawless 3 dungeons, I have done week 3 pantheon all plat and about to do week 4. I ask you because ive scoured the Internet for this answer and cant find this. My favorite exotic is strongholds on titan yes i know its not the best, but in many ways its utility is useful, perfect for caretaker, you dint get booped. Perfect for golgy gaze, because you can just block all of the ogre balls, awesome in gms because i can rez for free, master crota i can hold crotas aggro so every can trade buffs without the big doof hitting you, even in pantheon with the double rhulk i can hold both rhulks attention so its a two phase. I know its not the most optimal loadout. But how would you optimize strongholds, bare in mind i also just love being the tank for the team. Im still trying to figure out loadouts. Ive done a kinetic tremor supremacy with black talon with pretty good success.its no izzy rocket rotation but its still good enough. I have put 4.4 million dmg up on caretaker with mericless and a solas scar and no super. I know this is a odd request but id love help optimizing the way i love to play.
So the strongest DPS sword right now is Bequest with enhanced Surrounded, so if you can get away with that, do it. Not sure what the best non-Surrounded option is, probably Lament. Merciless is one of the few very strong DPS specials in the game, so that's a good call. You've also already found Kinetic Tremors Supremacy, which was my other initial idea. There might be a way to make Fourth Horseman work, but you'd have to figure out some way to reload it in the backpack. With Stronghold already locked in, the methods I can think for doing that would be pretty limited. Arc Holster would eat a surge mod, so that kinda sucks. If you're on Behemoth, Whisper of Impetus gets you one from your melee, but ideally you'd want as many as three to keep 4H loaded. Doing Banner of War instead would let you dump one Horseman mag, grapple to reload, and then dump a second one, then you'd switch to Bequest until grapple comes back from Thread of Generation (but I don't know how long that would take). Though if you're on Banner of War anyway, there's little reason not to lean on One-Two Punch instead. You could also try some sort of support rotation with Heartshadow, though it's a worse weaken than Tractor Cannon so not great in that regard.
@@life-destiny1196 thank you for the response. I could try the fourth horseman for close range bosses and pair that with bequest for the same surges and merciless and a solar sword for bosses I can't reach. My problem with heart shadow is the weaken is the small weaken and it's projectile tracking is kind of awful. Unless you're super close. And yeah the 1-2 punch is definitely the better option. I just don't want to use it. I'm not a speed runner, but also don't want to be a detriment. Thank you for the heads up and help. :)
If rocket sidearms count as primary while consuming special ammo, and they’re the only special archetype to do so, I’m assuming it’s just a bug and will be removed come TFS. Heavy ammo finder literally states “ kills from primary ammo weapons “ Special ammo isn’t primary ammo, when this goes away people are gonna be salty
Its definitely now more of a decision to mike over I typically have pulled away from double special but patheon oryx indebted kindness with whisper was and chill clip fusion was a life saver
Hey wassup bro great video. Is this info still accurate to date? I was potentially gonna run riptide w/ chronophage or aberrant action. The glaive fit my build better overall but the ammo crisis don’t suggest that
A favorite of mine is KT LFG supremacy, buried bloodline, and edge transit, sniper is good to proc cascade point and KT is goated, BB for devour and weaken, ET for damage
Double special is still default meta. Only use a primary when forced, usually champion of some sort or when something is out of band (polaris/old graviton)
Yesterday I literally had to do 3 roles in Nezarec Pantheon (Hatred, mid ad clear and refuge) because I was the only one capable of surviving all that😂
I think collective obligation with the right build is going to join the list of busted exotic primaries with the pulse buffs (especially if running gyrfalcon)
of course lol i put out a video about it a week ago and it barely gets views. homie puts it out and has as many views in an hour... arggg... gg though for real.. you're blowing up and should be proud!
Double special with Buried Bloodline, Special Ammo Finders, and Void Scavenge. Buried Bloodline counts as an exotic primary for ammo generation purposes. No need to generate ammo ever with finishers, and you can sync up Void surge mods between Buried Bloodline and Edge Transit if you want.
I just kinda struggle in most encounters to run 2 special weapons cause of the insane ad count or the mechanics themselves (Vow), I hear people saying 'just use abilities more' but idk, just feels obnoxious
Rockets sidearms don’t actually progress finders at quite the same rate as primaries, regardless of what the compendium claims. Exotic primaries require ~17 kills, legendary primaries ~20, other special weapons ~80, and indebted kindness ~27 Also voltshot AoE kills don’t count, so watch out for that too
I only do double special under the sole circumstance that i am cenotaph warlock in the case that im making my teammates help me out since im the heavy generator. Other than that, I've disliked special weapons for so long that simply put i have 0 interest in learning double special in other scenarios. Last year was literally the first time i actively used special since i got div back then and became div bich for raiding
However this vid was very informative, and a lot of the points on the factors apply even for primaries and heavies, as thats the lines of logic i use when picking those, at least for high end content that isn't a raid where the best dps weapons are basically well known
Kinda off topic but you got any tips for heat rises? I see a lot of people using it to get the extra ic dash, but it feels like it slows me down and I lose momentum pretty quickly, you seem to not have this issue in the video so I figured I’d ask. TIA.
I’ve been going back and forth for oryx in pantheon running kindness and a sniper. Would special finisher be enough to keep ammo economy manageable without a lead from gold kindness?
I thought this was a video pointing out the good parts of double special and how you'd use them in the current ammo economy, but no. It was for the mental asylum of people who are using it, convincing them to take a good look at what they're doing!
double special works on every content outside GMs. Or if your teammate has special finisher and Aeons, then it can also work GMs. Also Indebted Kindness and rocket sidearms are the ones you wanna use on double special. 1 scav and 1 reserve mode is like 1/3 max capacity on pick up/ like 17/50
Ever since I got my hands on indebted kindness, I've just been running double specials since. Mountaintop with indebted kindness goes hard, both together have really good ammo economy. Another note is trace rifles are getting dmg buffs in PvE so it should feel better to use and will use less ammo to kill adds.
Double special will always be my go to since I can just swap whatever is needed mid encounter, also not that hard to keep up if you can have finisher mods. Swapping from a Waveframe to Mercilless is always my go to
I’m personally feeling that elemental interactions are making even legendary primaries feel very powerful right now, especially Hatchling and Incandescent. Yes, you can get both on specials, and sometimes it’s even a great option, but being able to magdump into a surge of hatchlings and tangles, or solar pops and potentially firesprites and sunspots, offers an extremely high amount of build synergy and add clear.
I was skeptical of DSp since the nerf but running mountaintop and Wavesplitter in onslaught really showed me how powerful it can be if you play with intention, and build into it if need be (special finisher)
another thing about indebted kindness that makes it great for double special is that it doesn’t halve the ammo you get. when paired with a primary you get 17 and with double special you got 15.
Honestly, in a way glad to see the lines of different weapons blending more. Since it opens up more play styles and creativity. While also not throwing a specific “meta” that everyone “should run, or they will not be as effective as ones who do.” Like, there are weapons that do better then others for some things, always will be. But, as an example. I’ve done most of pantheon levels that require some ad clearing with Adhortive. Since that pulse rifle does decent damage and has good range. While also being able to run with heal clip to keep you alive and bring up solar grenades quickly and often enough that it’s not a huge worry about if “you used it effectively” or not.
Big difference between theoretical best in slot and best for the fireteam. If you got a set team with communication then something like double special cenotaph rocket spam is probably better, but if you just doing an lfg then trying to force a team build that they aren’t prepared for probably isn’t the best play. Just depends on the fireteam.
I put 7500 kills on this exact roll of the sidearm, the nerf sucks. I'm looking for LFG into Adagio, would take Voltshot too (Adagio in general is a strange perk, but in this case I'd be thinking of it as a blast radius perk that also might help ammo efficiency against bigger targets).
Indebted kindness is such a game changer. The rocket damage is like a 3x and it splashes ads. Permeability for those elemental buffs… but right now you only need heavy for boss dmg unless you are in an underpowered state like gms. Even in gms polaris can get champions down relatively quickly. I would say running pantheon really opened my eyes to what weapons matter. Eg if youre on ad clear you need an exotic and heavy scout + orb gen. If you are doing a job you may need a specialty weapon for thar job (eg forerunner or sniper for tmentors). On e you figure out your jobs, you pick your tools…dbl special is really helpful if you need to loadout switch (eg a new job came up)
W video as always. I remember when the root of nightmares dropped and how easy it was to get heavy during the entire raid just because of double special
So now with the changes to the ammo finder mod will this apply even more to use double special? Or will this not affect the opinion in this video? Because with the kill counter not effected this will help a ton with continuous ammo drops.
I’d say it depends on add density, and prevalence of mini bosses. If there’s a ton of adds then a primary with an ammo finder might still be good, but otherwise double specials might be better. At the end of the day, what’s best is what works best for you.
For solo content I ususally run supremacy, ikelos shotty and whisper on sunbracers. Shotty to help proc sunbracers on beefy enemies, whisper has good total dmg and surge matches the shotty, supremacy for ammo efficient major killing.
Do ammo finder helmet mods work at all or just not as good on double special load outs? It's confusing because description says kills have increased chance of heavy drop but then in caption says primary ammo kills increases drop rate. So do they not work at all or work but just not as good as primary kills?
per the Destiny Data Compendium: Ammo finders work on a counter system, where weapon kills progress a counter by a slightly randomized amount that eventually spawns a brick. Power weapons don't progress the counter (I think), and special weapons only progress it a little bit. Primaries progress it much more than specials. Exotic primaries progress the counter around 1.3x more per kill than legendary primaries. (This is part of why Sunshot etc. are so good--they rack up that counter progress extremely quickly, which means you're much likely to have extra heavy lying around.) Two special cases: Eriana's Vow progresses kills as a special weapon but also gets the 1.3x exotic bonus, which no other exotic special does. Indebted Kindness progresses as it if were a primary, which is much faster than it's supposed to. (It's unclear to me whether this applies to Buried Bloodline or Forerunner.)
what about double heavy?
:o
Your genius is almost frightening, sir
I run triple thunderlord
Exotic armor that allows double heavy. 🤔
Shhhh don’t let Bungie know about the Double Heavy strats
There's another reason to run double special that is worth mentioning. The main reason I use double special over an exotic primary is that it may actually be better in this situation so that I can swap to a damage loadout that is using double special, which is always better (outside of Lucky Pants). If I were using a sunshot (which is better than an indebted kindness for adclear this season) I wouldn't be able to swap to a gl/slug for damage rotations
swapping weapons and load outs mid encounter is a little cheesy. the current sweat min max meta is stuffing your loadout with exotic and weapon swaps for all these specific raid encounters and dungeons and stuff. if an encounter can't be comfortably beat without constantly playing inventory simulator then it needs to be re-designed. however, realistically, i'll play devil's advocate and just say that bungie is pretty brain dead on some of this stuff. i'm sure they're aware but just don't care. the biggest problem with destiny is it has very little actual character progression so the only way to express additional skill or power is by doing these goofy things like swapping exotics to buff a super and then switching back to a utility armor or taking advantage of ridiculously obscure mechanics or hidden interactions that only people without a job tend to find. just imo.
Always knew it was my teammates and not me that sucked. Thanks for the video :)
That’s… definitely a mentality to have haha (:
what about double primary though?
💀
Average LFG ultra noob
This Is The Final Shape
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average "i do add clear" player in LFG
I think using double special is also really dependant on your ability rotations and uptime. I play Void Hunter for exemple, so im using way more ammo than someone on sunbracers.
As another void hunter, this bugs me too. But that's why I'm excited about glaive melees being able to work with Stylish Executioner next season. Should hopefully be more ammo efficient
I play double special void hunter in onslaught (and other activities) and you just have to spam special finishers since you generate so many orbs. Also it helps to have a god roll indebted kindness 😂
I think your teammates dictate it almost as much. If I’m using sunshot and my partner in an encounter or my three man raid buddies wanna run double special I can cater to that and help them out with ammo generation
Alternatively it makes no sense to run primaries on a Solar Titan, since I’m using my hammer as my primary weapon.
@@Savage-Destinysame, but arc hunter with these hands.
Damn! Aegis pumping out all the content he had saved up.
Low effort content
@@Zarrakon Hating and for what
@@Zarrakon bruh
@@TheAegisRelic💀
Obvios bait try better next time@@Zarrakon
Babe, wake up, my opinion on the state of double special going into The Final Shape just dropped
nice thumbnail buddy :p
Hey Aegis, I don't know if you'll see this, but I wanted to comment and say that I enjoy watching your content. Even though I'm nowhere near the type of player you are, I still am able to understand and comprehend your more in-depth videos with stuff like DPS rotations and whatnot. Sending good vibes! :)
Thanks for the kind words
I've played GM nightfall today with indebted kindness (without lead from gold, only special finder), and I easily finished the GM without running out of ammo. I don't think lead from gold is a must, but its still good.
I’ve found it depends on the situation. Sometimes when you’re not cycling weapons as often to preserve dps ammo ammo can be a bit harder to come by. So lead from gold is another layer of protection, but you’re absolutely right that it’s not necessary by any means.
I have never struggled with ammo on Indebted kindness. Would prefer a perk to synergize with voltshot
@@Trevoroxx im curious, what perk would you suggest? I’ve found that reload isn’t an issue, velocity and tracking is only a problem when learning how to use the gun, the gun is a projectile so offhand strike doesn’t really matter. That leaves loose change and lead from gold. I could see loose change being good but I’m skeptical the benefits are good enough.
@EggyWeggyIII impulse or enlightened action. I like to cool down a room by spamming half a mag of the sidearm, reloading, proccing volt shot to get jolt on anything big, then swap to another weapon like a fusion rifle (riptide, Scatter signal) or a heavy to hit it while it is jolted.
Special finisher is goated
Have you considered triple primary? I think it can work pretty well in spire of stars.
is pretty strange to see bungies constant attempts to make double special less effecient, when the whole double special thing happened because how god awful most legendary primaries are, so double special for me has been one of my favorite play styles, the style is still viable but its annoying how bungie keep s trying to nerf it when its their fault its here to begin with
they should nerf it. double special is honestly just unnecessary power creep. it's obvious that the intended gameplay loop is primary special heavy. primary for reds, special for yellows, heavy for bosses. but i also agree that they've been extremely lackluster on trying to enforce this. i doubt most of the developers and play testers run double special very often or honestly ever.
Constant attempts? Besides the heavy ammo drop change what else did they do? I'd say releasing Indebted Kindness was a huge buff to the play style.
@@slime_ism that doesn't really mean anything, loot was getting a little stale and bungie needed to spice things up a very tiny bit with some slightly more exciting than average drops when WR dropped at a time when community sentiment was meh
I don’t think they’re trying to constantly bring it down, they just fixed a bug with heavy. Then releasing rocket sidearms and giving forebearance to everyone kinda says the opposite lol
I only really use indebted for double special. Even forbearance has lost its spark for me.
Honestly I use Indebted way more than Forb these days
Hey Aegis, love all the hard work you put into your videos bro
Thank you!
I gtg babe the new Aegis vid just dropped
Damn Aegis your spoiling us 😂
outbreak perfected now is ALOT more powerful than all specials. especially when its against a boss. also it has great aoe for being a primary
Your opinion only got more valid with the new rocket sidearm “the call” being more readily available to everyone
I’m glad that primaries have recovered a bit from their sorry state last year, at least to the point where you’re not just throwing using one over double special. I’ll be honest, I don’t like double special, mainly because I actually like primary gun play and how it feels so I avoid double special if I can. I’ll always advocate for primary buffs for that reason.
could you try to sell me on Lumina? i see a lot of top players using it but I just dont quite understand it I know its damage buff is the best but you have to shoot all your allies to spread the buff, right? would you not be better off just using a weaker damage buff thats more reliable and dumping damage into the boss? also why i never liked explosive light. The more time you spnd during dps running around for orbs, the less time you spend actually dpsing
It's really for hyperoptimized teams that can make use of the 35%>25% buff, in most cases it's not worth compromising your damage to benefit others unless they are reliable teammates
FWIW Lumina also was onetapping Acolytes for me when the buff was up during contest Ir Yut. it genuinely hits pretty hard b/c intrinsic exotic primary damage and giving yourself the buff, and helping the team stay alive and do their damage was also useful. I think there were probably better options for the situation, but it worked well enough.
I love using double special on my liars handshake build. All my adclear is with my melee, i do it sometimes in raids but it depends on the encounter.
triple shotgun arcstrider is great fun :)
Are ammo finders worth to run?
i should send this to my friend, with his double primary build
I miss the old ammo system :(
It felt intuitive once you started running it, you could track nearly exactly when special or heavy would drop.
Ive used this video to perfectly craft a loadout balanced between DPS and ammo economy... and my clanmate is running double scout rifle.
What about double primary? Heard to pair that with thunderlord is Goated
Hey Aegis! Just wanted to let you know if you didn’t already as I haven’t heard people say much about it. There is an auto reload fragment on prismatic - procs on suppressing or freezing a target! Something which the warlock transcendent nade does both of! Combine that with penumbral blast maybe? Or throw a turret out before BECOMING TRANS then you can get freeze off that and use arcane needle for an unravel?
I skimmed over your comment and saw BECOMING TRANS in full caps so that was kinda funny
Anyways yeah that Facet sounds good for damage rotations
@@TheAegisRelic thought that would be an attention getter
Aegis, you have a very unique insight.
What role do you think Glaives have in the sandbox currently, especially the endgame? What do you think they need to have in order for them to be worth using if they're not currently? I love that their melee functionality is effectively a primary weapon in-and-of-itself, nevermind the shield and shooting. And while we're on special weapons, I just want to say that I am unbelievably hopeful that one of these new rocket sidearms coming with TFS have Shoot to Loot with extra points if it can roll that WITH Lead from Gold, too.
Not Aegis, but if your offensive needs are covered by your other guns, there's some real crazy stuff in this game that gets tanked by glaives. (Like those stupid void homing shots from contest Nezarec that did like 150 damage through everything.) The shield is easily the best part of the whole setup--basically no other weapon in the game offers anything like it.
I think the main issue with them in a vacuum is that their projectile kinda sucks. This was more true when they first released, and a lot of people haven't touched them since. Many have poor reload stats (Unexpected Resurgence can actually get pretty quick with Impulse Amplifier, but others have worse stats--and a lot of people dump reload when they craft glaives for some reason), the damage and reserves aren't high, and the perk pools so far haven't been anything to write home about. Getting into melee is a tough risk/reward proposition, and their projectiles have damage falloff at under 20m in most cases despite how hard it already is to land that shot at range.
Vexcalibur is awesome when Void is good, but that hasn't been the case for a while, and the same holds true for Ecliptic Distaff. Winterbite is an otherwise incredible weapon hamstrung by taking up the rocket launcher slot and replacing it with projectile DPS on par with Conditional Finality or Forerunner. The class exotics have all gotten some buffs but are still pretty clunky to use. There still isn't one in the kinetic slot, which reduces buildcrafting opportunities substantially (I believe this is because of the guardian's portrait on your inventory screen--supposedly that thing is weirdly hard to code around). The two S16 glaives are joke weapons. There isn't an intrinsic-stunning exotic glaive other than Winterbite, and I suppose you could add the Voltshot or Incandescent glaives but those are not practical for the purpose.
A reserve buff and a range buff would go a long way towards solving the issues. Winterbite could probably use some love on its projectile damage versus bosses as well; something like 20% would bring it up to roughly Thunderlord tier.
I'm really excited to play some of the glaive builds that people have been talking about this season (Triton Vice w/ Concurrence or Vexcalibur, Saint-14 w/ Action), and hopefully I'll get to try them and report on them next season!
Def important to keep in mind, that running double special can allow you to get "mercy ammo" where drops will auto go to you to refund the guns.
Running primary will never allow this as it only procs when you are empty on everything, which can no longer happen as primary ammo is inifnite.
It can happen when u still have heavy ammo but yea
Double rocket sidearms boutta go hard in FS
For hunter’s try assasin’s cowl with special finisher on a class with a melee that can get plenty of kills like stasis, I also run reserves, finder, and scout, and so does my main teammate, so we’re constantly making ammo for the whole team, but when I’m solo, I still never have trouble safely going for the finisher I need for more ammo
When I'm on Stasis Warlock, I near exclusively use Appetence, Buried Bloodline, and Dimensional Hypotrochoid. BB does solid damage against majors and the weaken helps a ton against bosses. The Devour buff plus Demo and Headstone (Whisper of Shards) on Appetence means I get tons of grenade energy for Stasis Turrets that help with CC and ad clear. DH has enhanced Field Prep and Chain reaction so it has tons of reserves, great ad clear, and high ammo efficiency (though for floating/mobile bosses I tend to use Typhon GL5). Can't recommend it enough.
[Oh and the few times I play Hunter, i like to use Incisor, BB, and Hammerhead on Strand. I know more people have been talking about it recently but the Moth exotic + Thread of Ascent + Devour means I can hold onto Hammerhead's Rampage + Killing Tally buff for longer. Primarily for ad clear but still does good damage against bosses then BB hits hard and Incisor has good utility]
Y'know, I didn't quite appreciate Buried Bloodline because it took me so long to get my hands on it, but it makes Broodweaver in particular incredibly silly. You throw on Weaver's Trance and snipe red bars and suspending explosions are everywhere and Devour gives you the grenade back to do it again while also giving you survivability that isn't tied to Woven Mail or standing in a rift. We also just got the deets on the new exotic armors, and the Arcane Needle one is way better than the trailer made it look, so that's likely a natural pairing (I actually was using Nezarec's Sin just to double down on the ability regen angle, but it's not all that strong in the absolute sense, so I've been thinking about what else might be good).
Throw in KT Supremacy and Edge Transit and you've got something cooking!
Ive been watching your stuff for awhile. I have soloed flawless 3 dungeons, I have done week 3 pantheon all plat and about to do week 4. I ask you because ive scoured the Internet for this answer and cant find this. My favorite exotic is strongholds on titan yes i know its not the best, but in many ways its utility is useful, perfect for caretaker, you dint get booped. Perfect for golgy gaze, because you can just block all of the ogre balls, awesome in gms because i can rez for free, master crota i can hold crotas aggro so every can trade buffs without the big doof hitting you, even in pantheon with the double rhulk i can hold both rhulks attention so its a two phase. I know its not the most optimal loadout. But how would you optimize strongholds, bare in mind i also just love being the tank for the team. Im still trying to figure out loadouts. Ive done a kinetic tremor supremacy with black talon with pretty good success.its no izzy rocket rotation but its still good enough. I have put 4.4 million dmg up on caretaker with mericless and a solas scar and no super. I know this is a odd request but id love help optimizing the way i love to play.
So the strongest DPS sword right now is Bequest with enhanced Surrounded, so if you can get away with that, do it. Not sure what the best non-Surrounded option is, probably Lament.
Merciless is one of the few very strong DPS specials in the game, so that's a good call. You've also already found Kinetic Tremors Supremacy, which was my other initial idea.
There might be a way to make Fourth Horseman work, but you'd have to figure out some way to reload it in the backpack. With Stronghold already locked in, the methods I can think for doing that would be pretty limited. Arc Holster would eat a surge mod, so that kinda sucks. If you're on Behemoth, Whisper of Impetus gets you one from your melee, but ideally you'd want as many as three to keep 4H loaded. Doing Banner of War instead would let you dump one Horseman mag, grapple to reload, and then dump a second one, then you'd switch to Bequest until grapple comes back from Thread of Generation (but I don't know how long that would take). Though if you're on Banner of War anyway, there's little reason not to lean on One-Two Punch instead.
You could also try some sort of support rotation with Heartshadow, though it's a worse weaken than Tractor Cannon so not great in that regard.
@@life-destiny1196 thank you for the response. I could try the fourth horseman for close range bosses and pair that with bequest for the same surges and merciless and a solar sword for bosses I can't reach. My problem with heart shadow is the weaken is the small weaken and it's projectile tracking is kind of awful. Unless you're super close. And yeah the 1-2 punch is definitely the better option. I just don't want to use it. I'm not a speed runner, but also don't want to be a detriment. Thank you for the heads up and help. :)
I'm making a build series for every exotic armor piece next season so this will be hopefully explored there
@@TheAegisRelic I'll tune in. I'm a trials player that's been playing more end game pve almost exclusively because of you. So I look forward to it
I hope at the final credits of the light and dark saga we get a family friendly, animated movie style dance party credits sequence
If rocket sidearms count as primary while consuming special ammo, and they’re the only special archetype to do so, I’m assuming it’s just a bug and will be removed come TFS.
Heavy ammo finder literally states “ kills from primary ammo weapons “
Special ammo isn’t primary ammo, when this goes away people are gonna be salty
Heavy ammo finder literally states "Increases the drop chance of Heavy ammo on kill."
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY an aegis vid dropped
I paused on the Mastering Double Special thumbnail and the first thing I saw was "Masterbating Double Special"
Its definitely now more of a decision to mike over I typically have pulled away from double special but patheon oryx indebted kindness with whisper was and chill clip fusion was a life saver
my opinion has uploaded
Indebted kindness is considered as a legendary primary for ammo generation, but what about buried bloodline? I cant find anything online about it
That I am not sure about
Notice Sunbreacers. If you can rely more on ability ad clear double special is easier. If you use weapons for ad clear an exotic primary makes sense.
I returned to season of the wish like a month ago, whats the best add clear perk of the rocket sidearm
Voltshot
@@TheAegisRelic ty bbg
is the sidearm being coded as a primary a bug, or is that how it is?
Not sure as of yet
Hey wassup bro great video. Is this info still accurate to date? I was potentially gonna run riptide w/ chronophage or aberrant action. The glaive fit my build better overall but the ammo crisis don’t suggest that
A favorite of mine is KT LFG supremacy, buried bloodline, and edge transit, sniper is good to proc cascade point and KT is goated, BB for devour and weaken, ET for damage
Double special is still default meta. Only use a primary when forced, usually champion of some sort or when something is out of band (polaris/old graviton)
Yesterday I literally had to do 3 roles in Nezarec Pantheon (Hatred, mid ad clear and refuge) because I was the only one capable of surviving all that😂
I think collective obligation with the right build is going to join the list of busted exotic primaries with the pulse buffs (especially if running gyrfalcon)
Appreciate you making these philosophy videos. It helps us understand scenario planning.
I use what I enjoy, usually its a special sidearm and some kind of grenade launcher, shotgun, or a auto riffle.
of course lol i put out a video about it a week ago and it barely gets views. homie puts it out and has as many views in an hour... arggg... gg though for real.. you're blowing up and should be proud!
IIRC we're about to get a Kinetic slot rocket sidearm. Double spesh will continue to eat gud.
I love this gun but I guarantee it gets neutered in the ammo economy soon. This gun is great fun but almost making all other builds feel obsolete
Okay ik what he said but"i choose to use weapons in whatever activity i run at the time)nah bro i use my knees and use my ghost as a grenade
Sometimes I think you like to speed run the explanations.. I looked away from a minute and the video has ended
Double special this double special that, have any of you seen the light that is triple primary?
At this point just get rid of weapon classes... if I want to run triple heavy, let me.
double special then swap to a primary is what i do lol except for gms is guess
Lead from gold is easy pick since I don't have to worry about special finder and just go in on heavy finder + heavy scout.
Double special with Buried Bloodline, Special Ammo Finders, and Void Scavenge. Buried Bloodline counts as an exotic primary for ammo generation purposes. No need to generate ammo ever with finishers, and you can sync up Void surge mods between Buried Bloodline and Edge Transit if you want.
Now we need a video explaining why not to use double primary. I see it way to much.
I just kinda struggle in most encounters to run 2 special weapons cause of the insane ad count or the mechanics themselves (Vow), I hear people saying 'just use abilities more' but idk, just feels obnoxious
It definitely takes practice
You should try double primary, its the most versatile loadout ever!!!!
Rockets sidearms don’t actually progress finders at quite the same rate as primaries, regardless of what the compendium claims. Exotic primaries require ~17 kills, legendary primaries ~20, other special weapons ~80, and indebted kindness ~27
Also voltshot AoE kills don’t count, so watch out for that too
Interesting! Thanks for the info
Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed the content!
I only do double special under the sole circumstance that i am cenotaph warlock in the case that im making my teammates help me out since im the heavy generator. Other than that, I've disliked special weapons for so long that simply put i have 0 interest in learning double special in other scenarios. Last year was literally the first time i actively used special since i got div back then and became div bich for raiding
However this vid was very informative, and a lot of the points on the factors apply even for primaries and heavies, as thats the lines of logic i use when picking those, at least for high end content that isn't a raid where the best dps weapons are basically well known
Kinda off topic but you got any tips for heat rises? I see a lot of people using it to get the extra ic dash, but it feels like it slows me down and I lose momentum pretty quickly, you seem to not have this issue in the video so I figured I’d ask. TIA.
Make use of your double dash, minimize glide uptime, or use strafe
I’ve been going back and forth for oryx in pantheon running kindness and a sniper. Would special finisher be enough to keep ammo economy manageable without a lead from gold kindness?
Yeah easily
I thought this was a video pointing out the good parts of double special and how you'd use them in the current ammo economy, but no. It was for the mental asylum of people who are using it, convincing them to take a good look at what they're doing!
Huh
double special works on every content outside GMs. Or if your teammate has special finisher and Aeons, then it can also work GMs. Also Indebted Kindness and rocket sidearms are the ones you wanna use on double special. 1 scav and 1 reserve mode is like 1/3 max capacity on pick up/ like 17/50
Ever since I got my hands on indebted kindness, I've just been running double specials since. Mountaintop with indebted kindness goes hard, both together have really good ammo economy.
Another note is trace rifles are getting dmg buffs in PvE so it should feel better to use and will use less ammo to kill adds.
Double special will always be my go to since I can just swap whatever is needed mid encounter, also not that hard to keep up if you can have finisher mods. Swapping from a Waveframe to Mercilless is always my go to
I’m personally feeling that elemental interactions are making even legendary primaries feel very powerful right now, especially Hatchling and Incandescent. Yes, you can get both on specials, and sometimes it’s even a great option, but being able to magdump into a surge of hatchlings and tangles, or solar pops and potentially firesprites and sunspots, offers an extremely high amount of build synergy and add clear.
If I’m trying to use strongholds swords into gm and high level content what would you recommend for double special?
Maybe a blinding GL and rocket sidearm?
I was skeptical of DSp since the nerf but running mountaintop and Wavesplitter in onslaught really showed me how powerful it can be if you play with intention, and build into it if need be (special finisher)
another thing about indebted kindness that makes it great for double special is that it doesn’t halve the ammo you get. when paired with a primary you get 17 and with double special you got 15.
I’ve been finding it hard to play double special this season because of anti-champion artifact mods. I miss unstop fusions.
Yeah having a special stun mod is nice for sure
Honestly, in a way glad to see the lines of different weapons blending more.
Since it opens up more play styles and creativity. While also not throwing a specific “meta” that everyone “should run, or they will not be as effective as ones who do.”
Like, there are weapons that do better then others for some things, always will be. But, as an example. I’ve done most of pantheon levels that require some ad clearing with Adhortive. Since that pulse rifle does decent damage and has good range. While also being able to run with heal clip to keep you alive and bring up solar grenades quickly and often enough that it’s not a huge worry about if “you used it effectively” or not.
another banger from john limit himself
O _ O
Im mean, yall laugh at double primary but why do I be carrying people in GMs with shoot to loot primaries and gally?
Big difference between theoretical best in slot and best for the fireteam. If you got a set team with communication then something like double special cenotaph rocket spam is probably better, but if you just doing an lfg then trying to force a team build that they aren’t prepared for probably isn’t the best play. Just depends on the fireteam.
I only have lead from gold + Deconstruct on rocket sidearm
with the nerf coming to deconstruct, should I be farming for a replacement?
probably, get a good voltshot roll. Either lead from gold, impulse, or beacon in 1st column. All excellent rolls
I put 7500 kills on this exact roll of the sidearm, the nerf sucks. I'm looking for LFG into Adagio, would take Voltshot too (Adagio in general is a strange perk, but in this case I'd be thinking of it as a blast radius perk that also might help ammo efficiency against bigger targets).
Indebted kindness is such a game changer. The rocket damage is like a 3x and it splashes ads. Permeability for those elemental buffs… but right now you only need heavy for boss dmg unless you are in an underpowered state like gms. Even in gms polaris can get champions down relatively quickly. I would say running pantheon really opened my eyes to what weapons matter. Eg if youre on ad clear you need an exotic and heavy scout + orb gen. If you are doing a job you may need a specialty weapon for thar job (eg forerunner or sniper for tmentors). On e you figure out your jobs, you pick your tools…dbl special is really helpful if you need to loadout switch (eg a new job came up)
I wish we got a gun with headseeker in 3rd column an percision instrument in 4th or vice versa. That would be so good imo.
Lfg/permeability on indebted kindness is mega fun with gyrfalcon's hauberk
I run the enigma with winterbite and a sniper just for fun
Bro has a dim loadout for every activity in the game
Ive prepared my stasis bulid with agers and indepted kindness with buffs coming in final shape i cant wait to see how good it will be
Does Buried Bloodline also work like indebted kindness, working towards ammo finders?
Not sure atm
So is double special still the move for most GMs or is it worth running primaries now?
Depends on team
i hope the new solar sidearm has incandescent, if not, im just happy there will be more op sidearms
I love myself a double special loadout while raiding.
It’s still viable as the special finisher is still very good at keeping your ammo eco alive.
W video as always. I remember when the root of nightmares dropped and how easy it was to get heavy during the entire raid just because of double special
So now with the changes to the ammo finder mod will this apply even more to use double special? Or will this not affect the opinion in this video? Because with the kill counter not effected this will help a ton with continuous ammo drops.
I’d say it depends on add density, and prevalence of mini bosses. If there’s a ton of adds then a primary with an ammo finder might still be good, but otherwise double specials might be better. At the end of the day, what’s best is what works best for you.
Still usable, I use it without finders all the time
Triple trace rifle or triple gl you must pick
Just use a pulse in final shape
why shouldnt frost armor glaive builds work? takes no ammo to shiv ads
Could work!
For solo content I ususally run supremacy, ikelos shotty and whisper on sunbracers. Shotty to help proc sunbracers on beefy enemies, whisper has good total dmg and surge matches the shotty, supremacy for ammo efficient major killing.
Solid loadout
Do ammo finder helmet mods work at all or just not as good on double special load outs? It's confusing because description says kills have increased chance of heavy drop but then in caption says primary ammo kills increases drop rate. So do they not work at all or work but just not as good as primary kills?
per the Destiny Data Compendium: Ammo finders work on a counter system, where weapon kills progress a counter by a slightly randomized amount that eventually spawns a brick.
Power weapons don't progress the counter (I think), and special weapons only progress it a little bit. Primaries progress it much more than specials. Exotic primaries progress the counter around 1.3x more per kill than legendary primaries. (This is part of why Sunshot etc. are so good--they rack up that counter progress extremely quickly, which means you're much likely to have extra heavy lying around.)
Two special cases:
Eriana's Vow progresses kills as a special weapon but also gets the 1.3x exotic bonus, which no other exotic special does.
Indebted Kindness progresses as it if were a primary, which is much faster than it's supposed to. (It's unclear to me whether this applies to Buried Bloodline or Forerunner.)
Waiting for the triple primary video
ive still never done a raid
i usually use an exotic kinetic primary and a wave frame