Very good Dave. Hats off to you Sir. While I learned later in life how to run CNC's, I have a large place in my heart for manual machines. Take care and keep more like this coming.
Superb my old westclox journeyman was a tool and die maker and showed me this old method, i think I only had to use it once and people were like in awe lol. Common sense when you know how, thanks for showing everyone.
Excellent explanation! I've been looking for it on RUclips few years ago - and there was nothing. Now all of us interested in intelligent machinist's solutions have one answer more added to our knowledge!
I was given the task (opportunity) of learning to run a machine shop that is like a time capsule of 1960s and earlier machines. I was gifted a box of old lay out tools and these buttons were included. I never knew what these things were or how to use them. I cant wait to try them out. If not for the knowledge of people such as yourself, i would be lost. Everything i know about manual machining has been taught to me by old timers that are perfectionist. Its very overwhelming but rewarding
Thanks for watching and this comment. Glad I was able to help. Good luck with your engineering learning, there is so much to take in. Some information is not much use in todays CNC machining but it is invaluable for oldie World manual machines. Regards.
I buy and sell tools as a sode hustle. RUclips is invaluable to me to help find out what some of these tools are used for. This is a great help, thank you for taking the time to explain. I currently have 5 sets of lushington tool makers buttons for sale 😊
Great to hear. Hope they sell well. I have had several enquires from viewers of this video on where to get them from. Hope that they read your comment. Thanks for the view. Regards.
You are most welcome John, information needs passing on before it gets forgotten about. Unless you had some old engineering manuals, I very much doubt that they would even be mentioned in Modern Engineering books. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Hi Dave , being a latecomer to engineering and knowing very little , I’ve just watched this and learned loads . Looking forward to watching the rest . Thank you … :-)
Hello Nick, Welcome aboard. Hope you find some of my other videos of help. Drop me an email if you want any other information that I can pass onto you and perhaps some pictures and personal instructions. Regards.
Thank you , I’ve got an old Milnes lathe and a tiny Chinese milling machine but not set up my workshop yet… I’ll take you up on your offer in a few months when I’m a bit more sorted … :-)
Thanks for the refresher, I had heard of these and thought they could solve a problem I was having, but I couldn't remember exactly how they were used.
Hi Dave. Interesting toolmaker button history demo. From an era machine tools couldn't be counted on to to provide precision positioning. This button technique was obsolete decades before I started my apprenticeship in 1964. The only set I've ever seen in real life was owned by an old toolmaker I worked with. His tools were date stamped 1930s! (Rip Art). Let's hope any newbies watching don't think buttons have a place in today's shop. 😊 All the best from Iowa, Mike
Hello Mike, thanks for the view and your comment. Yes in general I would agree with you that they are old technology superseded by the DRO. But as I demonstrated, still highly valuable for lathe faceplate and 4 jaw work. Don't wear out you Pajamas. LOL Regards.
Hi Dave, great video it brought back memories. I used this method on my lathe faceplate to bore two holes in mountings for ground silver steel rods to make the slideways for a horizontal borer back in the 1980's. I still have the borer today but it needs a refurbish after being stored outside under cover. Tony
Sounds great, Tony. Don't put off until tomorrow what you could / should be doing today. Tomorrow never comes. Time flashes by so fast. Go get it and start the refurb. Thanks for the comment. Regards.
Hello Dave, I like the use of the buttons... I have setup a saved search for some here in the UK... Give it a year or two and some will appear - lol. Take care. Paul,,
Dave seems everything is done with a didgetal readout. Being an old school toolmaker seems to be a dying art. I'm glad I was taught the old way. Great job !!
Thanks for watching Raymond. Yes unfortunately us Old School Engineers are getting a thing of the past. Wizz kids these days with CAD and CNC. I bet that they do not know how to even use a manual machine. Regards.
Nice. I've read "Machine Shop Practices", both volumes cover to cover... and even used a few things I learned. I have not used buttons yet. There were probably a few times I should have.
Thanks for watching and this comment. Depending where you live in the World, you may have a difficulty in trying to find a set as it is " Old Technology " but do not despare. You can make some out of ground rod such as Silver Steel or Drill Rod. As long as you ensure that the bottom face is machined and honed perpendicular to the OD then all will be well. There are some rollers used in roller bearings that are hollow in the center, if you know anyone who works with replacing bearings and can find you some. In a set there are usually 2 short ones and 2 long ones. Any size bolt threads that you want, just as long as the hole in the rollers are a very sloppy fit, about 60 to 80 thou oversize to allow for the button to be accurately adjusted. Regards.
Hello Howard, thanks for watching. Yes the 'Youth of Today' don't realise how easy their engineering life is today, compared to the mid 1900's onwards. DRO's were just coming in about 1960, but not like they are today. Big display units using Nixi Tubes ( glass tubes with numbered wires inside and a neon gas that glowed when each number was connected) Needed 1 Nixi for each digit, so if you wanted a 1,000 mm scale you needed 6 tubes if you wanted to read to .05 mm. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 I am very familiar with the procedure for using buttons and the toolmakers ball device. We often made our own buttons from silver steel rod by drilling the centre bore hole and facing either end whilst in the annealed state. After hardening they were ground to the finished diameter and the ends lapped....all good fun.
Hi Dave, Mmmm, can see the benefits over marking out for the mill, but as you say, the DRO has definitely superseded. My apprenticeship was as a toolmaker, fortunately I had the very first incarnation of Heidenhain's DRO on my Bridgeport! Well done on your subs and views mate, thoroughly deserved. Cheers, Jon
Buttons permit accurate manual layout on large items too big for one's milling machine. A piece of suitable steel fitted with drill guide bushings is a handy way to make holes square to the material. DRO are lovely for backlash compensation which is probably the best reason to buy one.
Hello Dave I bought some machinist tools some time ago and in a wood box there was some of those buttons, I had no idea what they were used for. Cheers
Hi Randy, thanks for the view and your comment. Glad it may help you. Hoping to do another video tomorrow with another Oldie Worldie Tool that may also be in the collection you bought. Stay tuned. Regards.
Fantastic video Dave ! You are spot on with the comment dying art - the lure of the DRO is strong ! Problem with the DRO is it doesn’t account for wear in the machine or if the scales are as accurate as they state they are . If you can find me a home shop machine that you can zero the DRO then lock the ways without the DRO changing I would like to see it ! For home use a set can be made that will serve the job at hand - sure no where as accurate as a proper set but better than nothing . It is fantastic that you are showing how to use these tools and procedures because a lot of hobby machinists go through their whole life not really knowing or understanding why the hole they just drilled isn’t located where they wanted it , it maybe close but when you are making a Steam engine cylinder with a bolt on head and steam chest that may use many studs to hold them in place a couple of thou variation on the stud location on a few different studs means that cover isn’t going on without some fettling or severely oversize holes .Yes they can clamp both together and drill and tap the holes in one go but any error is the applied to the mating part so it will only fit on in one orientation .
One tedious factor is that you have to first mark out the holes positions and drill and tap them to get the screws and buttons near enough before mounting the button.....BTDT.....even if the part is hanging in the air and not on a table you still have to have the button near enough before you can dial up on it. On the aspect of slides moving when tightening the lock screw........utter crap, if the DRO shows that the table moves you slacken the lock and move the slide back etc......DRO's are far more accurate than practically any person can successfully apply buttons and they ignore screw backlash........ glass scales are accurate to 5 microns (and you need to have a set of gauge blocks to use buttons too)......but I get what you are driving at. Once you have a DRO and use it you never go back.....EVER......it makes calibrated dials on machines obsolete and can go from Imperial to Metric if required.....can't imagine why anyone would use Imperial now. BTW....I thought the UK went Metric in 1972 (when I was last there).....why are you still using Imperial measurements?..........only the Yanks like Imperial.
@@gangleweed RE the scales moving , the scales are not mounted on the feed screw centreline but on the edge of the table or Y axis slide . They are parallel to the feed screw movement for certain but when you clamp the slide any clearance is taken up and this clearance which all machines must have regardless of how small can cause the numbers on a DRO to move .If this movement is not exactly perpendicular to the scale it is magnified by the distance the scale is from the axis centreline , I’m not talking about tool room quality machines that we all would love to have - many have old and worn machines and even the new Asian made stuff can have problems here . So you set it up , zero everything then clamp it up then notice one axis is now reading different - do you re adjust it or leave it ? Did it really move in the direction as stated by the dro or was it a small amount of table twist ? RE scale accuracy - yes they can read very accurately but did you confirm this and compensate in the settings as per the installation instructions ? Not all scales are created equal and the machine may not be running top end equipment. I use imperial here because choose to and I know that Dave would have spent his time using it , I can use either imperial or metric and I’m not located in the UK . These days most of this is not relevant except in a home workshop as the world has gone CNC mad and many of the traditional skills are being lost - at least Dave is trying to keep them alive for those who wish to learn them !
@@ianbertenshaw4350 Well actually the glass scales are on the sides of the table and saddle and any table movement should first be taken up by the gibs......if the table ways are so worn that they wobble then it's a lost cause and glass scales won't do any good. You have to know your machinery to know where to fix it or adjust it or at worst take it apart and rework the slideways.....if you lack the skill to work on a machine the only solution is to dig deep one time only, take out a mortgage for a couple of grand and buy a forever machine that will be reliable. I'm a time served fitter and turned and reworking worn machinery has been my life so lucky me. Incidently, on the cost of machinery, my lathe is a 1930 Colchester Bantam, bought in UK for 70 pounds Sterling and shipped with my belongings to OZ in 1981.....I had to recut all the slideways on the bed with a hand planer before scraping.....long story.
@@gangleweed Amazing how a comment about using toolmakers buttons has morphed into one about rebuilding a machine so a set of digital scales will read true ! You may need more than a couple of grand to buy a decent machine - my Hafco mill cost a nudge over 2k and it aint nuthin special 🤣
Hello Colin, If your part does not have to accurate to the tenth thou, you could make some yourself. Just ensure that you face the end true to the OD before parting off. Thanks for the view. Regards.
I had a boss once that always touted how he was a toolmaker, but seems when strolling by my open box, he always had a question of what something was. Amongst the things that he had no clue were a set of toolmaker buttons. He was impressed with my trammel set, he had never seen someone layout a bolt hole pattern, center punch, drill the holes, and everything came within tolerance... he would have flipped if I would have drilled the holes with my hand powered copy of a Cole drill
Thanks for the view and your excellent comment. You boss may have even been just a Relation to the owner, so did not need to know anything. Just a job for the "Boy's" Regards.
Appreciate your effort and dedication to show this technique! I just can’t understand how you mean to precisely set the buttons on the stock. You mean we need to make a hole for each and thread them up so e can position such buttons?
Hello Edson, thanks for watching and your question. YES, mark out as accurately as you can ALL your intended hole positions, drill and tap a hole for the button screw. The hole in the button is quite a bit bigger than the screw, thus allowing it to be moved around to set the distance accurately, then lock the screw down. Obviously if you need more than 4 accurate holes, you would need several setups. Drill and tap all the holes, pick your first 4 holes, then machine 3 of them. If any other holes are still referenced to to the last button, do not machine it, but remove the plate and set up the next 3 buttons with reference to the remaining button that was set from the first alignment. The number of accurately positioned holes by this method is unlimited. Hope this clarifies the question. Regards.
Sir, have you done one on what I was taught to call tooling balls? I do not know what they call them over there. Spheres of a known tolerance for radius used for measuring purposes. I always like that we call things different names but they are the exact same thing.
Hi Scott, thanks for the view and your excellent question. NO I have never uses a tooling ball, but here are 2 links to using them. JOE Pie has a good one. ruclips.net/video/FnEl6Kj-F-E/видео.html Another one is Mr Crispin, watch from about the 9 minute mark. ruclips.net/video/55opfN6Bysk/видео.html Regards.
Am I missing something here Dave? How is this any more accurate than transfer punching? BTW, in Canada, in the 70s transfer punching was taught in grade school industrial arts .
Thanks for the view and your comment. Providing that you have accurately set them up, and dialled it in, this is accurate to Tenths of a thou. To use a transfer punch which I consider is highly inaccurate, you would need a part to punch through. This method is used to make the holes without any other mating part. See this video for the way to transfer holes WITHOUT using transfer punches. Thanks. ruclips.net/video/ZwxgJn4G2kI/видео.html
Has nothing to do with transfer punches - Toolmakers Buttons are a precision tool - Transfer punches are butchers tools compared to them . Transfer punches are ok if you only want a hole somewhere close to where it needs to be , if you want a hole to be located within a ten thousandths then buttons and indicating is what you need . Set up the button ,set up the job in the mill or even better jig borer , indicate , bore the hole undersize with a slot drill , finish bore to size with a boring bar .
@@ianbertenshaw4350 Hi Ian, thanks for that extra note, some people are so obsessed with Transfer Punches that they have blinkers on when it comes to the CORRECT way of doing things. Thanks for the view. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 Yes, Dave, that video, and your comment about it being an American thing is why I mentioned about it having been taught in Canada... Now since neither you, nor @ian bertenshaw, answered the question of how, just gave the standard British rhetoric of our system is best... HOW is it more precise? Is it about the holes through the buttons being larger than the screw holding it, and therefor being able to take exact location from the gauge blocks? BTW, I do understand that a "standard" set of transfer punches is no more accurate than a big-box-store set of sale priced HSS twist drills, but, every proper machinist I know, who works in a jobber shop, has a few precision transfer punches that they have had to custom make for a job at one time...
@@trollforge Hello again, thanks for your reply and question. YES, it is because the screw is smaller than the hole in the button that allows it all to work and be the most accurate. Mark and drill as accurate as possible, should be able to get the holes positioned to within 0.015" 1/64", then tap for the screw. As the demonstration showed there was plenty of wiggle room for the button to move in any direction around the screw. Hope you have now grasped the principles behind how they work. Don't know when they were invented, probably over 100 Years ago now. I do know that the Jo Blocks were specially invented for the Ford Factories in the early 1896. Thanks for your interest in the matter. Regards.
Hi Ryan, Yes it was the only accurate way before about 1970 when the very first DRO's came out. Early DRO were very bulky and did not have the functions that modern day ones have. The Phips one of about 1970 used what were called NIXI tubes for the numbers. It was a vacuum tune filled with neon, about the size of a small radio valve. Inside were wire numbers 0 to 9, they lit up orange when the voltage was applied to whichever number was selected by the electronics box. You could only do 1 measurement, there was no INC or ABS switch, only whatever you had decided it was going to be. Thanks for watching. If you do not have a DRO on your milling machine. it is still the only way to get absolute hole positioning accuracy. Regards.
Thanks for the question. Yes you could use a drill bushing providing that the end is perpendicular to the OD and that you know the diameter of the bush accuratley. Regards.
Thanks for the view and comment. Duly noted but with over 5 K views and 34 comments, you are the only person to complain, perhaps it is your setup. Regards.
Thanks for the view. The screw are probably 6-32 or about 3 mm. No problem tapping if only people were taught properly and did not go about it like a Bull in a China shop.Gently, Gently, Catchy Monkey. Best Wishes.
Very good Dave. Hats off to you Sir. While I learned later in life how to run CNC's, I have a large place in my heart for manual machines. Take care and keep more like this coming.
Well said and thanks for sharing your view. Thanks for your participation. Regards.
Superb my old westclox journeyman was a tool and die maker and showed me this old method, i think I only had to use it once and people were like in awe lol. Common sense when you know how, thanks for showing everyone.
Hi Steve, so glad you enjoyed watching it and bringing back memories of your work place. Thanks for the view and the comment. Regards.
Thank you for posting this video. I had heard about these but wasn't sure how they were used.
Glad I could help! Thanks for the view. Regards.
Brother Dave, I am a Toolmaker in the States. I was taught this in 2nd year of apprenticeship, by my master. Wonderful.
Hi Scot, thanks for watching. Glad it brought back memories
of your Youth. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 Oh, and sir, I still call them Jo blocks, I did a paper in school on the man.
Excellent explanation! I've been looking for it on RUclips few years ago - and there was nothing. Now all of us interested in intelligent machinist's solutions have one answer more added to our knowledge!
Thanks for watching. So glad that it was of use to you. Regards.
I was given the task (opportunity) of learning to run a machine shop that is like a time capsule of 1960s and earlier machines. I was gifted a box of old lay out tools and these buttons were included. I never knew what these things were or how to use them. I cant wait to try them out. If not for the knowledge of people such as yourself, i would be lost. Everything i know about manual machining has been taught to me by old timers that are perfectionist. Its very overwhelming but rewarding
Thanks for watching and this comment. Glad I was able to help. Good luck with your engineering learning, there is so much to take in. Some information is not much use in todays CNC machining but it is invaluable for oldie World manual machines. Regards.
Hello Dave - you can never go wrong learning the “old school” way. You never know when you may need it 👌
So True Jeff, If ever the DRO's in the World stop working, the old hand method will still be good to go. Thanks for watching. Regards.
I buy and sell tools as a sode hustle. RUclips is invaluable to me to help find out what some of these tools are used for. This is a great help, thank you for taking the time to explain. I currently have 5 sets of lushington tool makers buttons for sale 😊
Great to hear. Hope they sell well. I have had several enquires from viewers of this video on where to get them from. Hope that they read your comment. Thanks for the view. Regards.
Thank you for taking the time to educate us all in a clear and precise manner
You are most welcome John, information needs passing on before it gets forgotten about. Unless you had some old engineering manuals, I very much doubt that they would even be mentioned in Modern Engineering books. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Thank you so much for showing how to use these buttons.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Hi Dave , being a latecomer to engineering and knowing very little , I’ve just watched this and learned loads . Looking forward to watching the rest . Thank you …
:-)
Hello Nick, Welcome aboard. Hope you find some of my other videos of help. Drop me an email if you want any other information that I can pass onto you and perhaps some pictures and personal instructions. Regards.
Thank you , I’ve got an old Milnes lathe and a tiny Chinese milling machine but not set up my workshop yet…
I’ll take you up on your offer in a few months when I’m a bit more sorted …
:-)
i learn something new every time i see your show thanks Dave
Hi Donny, Glad to hear it, worth my time and trouble to hear that. Thank you. Regards.
Thank you for the video. I always wondered how they were used. Now I know.
Happy to help. Thanks for watching. Regards.
thanks! someone gave me some in a bunch of tools, i never did look up what they were for... excellent explanation ...
Thanks for the view Mike. Glad I could help. Regards.
Thanks for the refresher, I had heard of these and thought they could solve a problem I was having, but I couldn't remember exactly how they were used.
Thanks for watching. Glad it was of some help. Regards.
I never knew such an item existed. The instructions you provided were top notch and I thank you.
Hello Roy, thanks for the view and your comment. They say you should learn something new every day, so job done for today. LOL Regards.
LOL seen those for years and had never seen them used properly. Thanks for taking the time to share the wisdom.
All the best
Dan
Hello Dan, pleased to know that you now know what to do with them should you acquire a set. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Very nicely explained.
Thank you! 🙂 Thanks for watching. Regards.
Again, these techniques are so great....they can be used in many different ways
Absolutely. So glad you enjoyed watching. You may have a job finding a set now as they 1900's Technology. E-Bay USA sometimes has them. Regards.
Hi Dave. Interesting toolmaker button history demo. From an era machine tools couldn't be counted on to to provide precision positioning. This button technique was obsolete decades before I started my apprenticeship in 1964. The only set I've ever seen in real life was owned by an old toolmaker I worked with. His tools were date stamped 1930s! (Rip Art). Let's hope any newbies watching don't think buttons have a place in today's shop. 😊 All the best from Iowa, Mike
Hello Mike, thanks for the view and your comment. Yes in general I would agree with you that they are old technology superseded by the DRO. But as I demonstrated, still highly valuable for lathe faceplate and 4 jaw work. Don't wear out you Pajamas. LOL Regards.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I am alway wanting to learn new techniques, even if its a dying art. Best wishes from Texas
Hello Tim, thanks for watching. Hope it proved useful. Regards.
Hi Dave, great video it brought back memories. I used this method on my lathe faceplate to bore two holes in mountings for ground silver steel rods to
make the slideways for a horizontal borer back in the 1980's. I still have the borer today but it needs a refurbish after being stored outside under cover. Tony
Sounds great, Tony. Don't put off until tomorrow what you could / should be doing today. Tomorrow never comes. Time flashes by so fast. Go get it and start the refurb. Thanks for the comment. Regards.
Dear Dave, That was very interesting. Thank you verymuch.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching, hope it may be useful for you. Regards
Hello Dave,
I like the use of the buttons... I have setup a saved search for some here in the UK... Give it a year or two and some will appear - lol.
Take care.
Paul,,
Hi Paul, You may have a long wait, quite rare in the UK. Do you know anyone retiring ? they may have a set in their toolmakers cabinet. Regards.
Make them
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
You are so welcome, so pleased that you enjoyed watching it. Regards.
Dave seems everything is done with a didgetal readout. Being an old school toolmaker seems to be a dying art. I'm glad I was taught the old way. Great job !!
Thanks for watching Raymond. Yes unfortunately us Old School Engineers are getting a thing of the past. Wizz kids these days with CAD and CNC. I bet that they do not know how to even use a manual machine. Regards.
You got awesome ,sir because your all videos is so informative so educational to all viewers i love it
So nice of you to say so John. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Read about them, but never seen a demo. Thanks, Dave!
Hello Russell, thanks for the comment, glad I have now filled your void. Keep watching more to come. Regards.
Nice. I've read "Machine Shop Practices", both volumes cover to cover... and even used a few things I learned. I have not used buttons yet. There were probably a few times I should have.
Thanks for watching and this comment. Depending where you live in the World, you may have a difficulty in trying to find a set as it is " Old Technology " but do not despare. You can make some out of ground rod such as Silver Steel or Drill Rod. As long as you ensure that the bottom face is machined and honed perpendicular to the OD then all will be well. There are some rollers used in roller bearings that are hollow in the center, if you know anyone who works with replacing bearings and can find you some. In a set there are usually 2 short ones and 2 long ones. Any size bolt threads that you want, just as long as the hole in the rollers are a very sloppy fit, about 60 to 80 thou oversize to allow for the button to be accurately adjusted. Regards.
Great tutorial, I acquired several sets of buttons. I haven’t has a chance to use them yet. Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Great video! Looks like another thing has been added to my list of projects, going to make a set once my cylindrical grinder is up and running.
Hi Jon, Go for it, will make a good first grinding project. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Excellent demonstration 👏
Glad you liked it! Thanks for watching. Regards.
I was taught this as a turner many years ago.
Thanks for watching and your comment. You can't beat the old and trusted ways. All manual setup and no DRO needed. Regards.
Just makes you realise how we take for granted the convenience of a modern day DRO for precise feature locating setting out holes
Hello Howard, thanks for watching. Yes the 'Youth of Today' don't realise how easy their engineering life is today, compared to the mid 1900's onwards. DRO's were just coming in about 1960, but not like they are today. Big display units using Nixi Tubes ( glass tubes with numbered wires inside and a neon gas that glowed when each number was connected) Needed 1 Nixi for each digit, so if you wanted a 1,000 mm scale you needed 6 tubes if you wanted to read to .05 mm. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 I am very familiar with the procedure for using buttons and the toolmakers ball device. We often made our own buttons from silver steel rod by drilling the centre bore hole and facing either end whilst in the annealed state. After hardening they were ground to the finished diameter and the ends lapped....all good fun.
hi dave got a set of these buttons ,and i wondered what they were for now i know thanks dave
Thanks for watching, glad the video was a help. Regards.
Thank you for teaching me this.
Thanks for watching. So glad that it was useful to you. Regards.
Hi Dave, Mmmm, can see the benefits over marking out for the mill, but as you say, the DRO has definitely superseded. My apprenticeship was as a toolmaker, fortunately I had the very first incarnation of Heidenhain's DRO on my Bridgeport! Well done on your subs and views mate, thoroughly deserved. Cheers, Jon
Hello Jon, Thanks for your comment. As I said if you had some, great for a 4 jaw or faceplate setup on a lathe. Regards.
Thanks Dave! I've read about the but seen them used! Thank you, I'll have to make a set of those
Hello 'fellow' Dave. Thanks fort he view and your comment. Regards.
Buttons permit accurate manual layout on large items too big for one's milling machine. A piece of suitable steel fitted with drill guide bushings is a handy way to make holes square to the material. DRO are lovely for backlash compensation which is probably the best reason to buy one.
Thanks for watching and your observations on other engineering problems. Regards.
Eyup Dave
Great tutorial, old school!!
see you next time
Kev uk
Glad you enjoyed it Kev. More to come. Regards.
Hello Dave I bought some machinist tools some time ago and in a wood box there was some of those buttons, I had no idea what they were used for. Cheers
Hi Randy, thanks for the view and your comment. Glad it may help you. Hoping to do another video tomorrow with another Oldie Worldie Tool that may also be in the collection you bought. Stay tuned. Regards.
Bought some of these at a carboot sale not knowing what they were used for. Thanks Dave
My pleasure, glad my video has helped you. Thanks for the view and comment. Regards.
Fantastic video Dave !
You are spot on with the comment dying art - the lure of the DRO is strong ! Problem with the DRO is it doesn’t account for wear in the machine or if the scales are as accurate as they state they are . If you can find me a home shop machine that you can zero the DRO then lock the ways without the DRO changing I would like to see it !
For home use a set can be made that will serve the job at hand - sure no where as accurate as a proper set but better than nothing .
It is fantastic that you are showing how to use these tools and procedures because
a lot of hobby machinists go through their whole life not really knowing or understanding why the hole they just drilled isn’t located where they wanted it , it maybe close but when you are making a Steam engine cylinder with a bolt on head and steam chest that may use many studs to hold them in place a couple of thou variation on the stud location on a few different studs means that cover isn’t going on without some fettling or severely oversize holes .Yes they can clamp both together and drill and tap the holes in one go but any error is the applied to the mating part so it will only fit on in one orientation .
Hi Ian, glad you approved of it and it was to your liking. More in the pipeline. Stay tuned. Regards.
One tedious factor is that you have to first mark out the holes positions and drill and tap them to get the screws and buttons near enough before mounting the button.....BTDT.....even if the part is hanging in the air and not on a table you still have to have the button near enough before you can dial up on it.
On the aspect of slides moving when tightening the lock screw........utter crap, if the DRO shows that the table moves you slacken the lock and move the slide back etc......DRO's are far more accurate than practically any person can successfully apply buttons and they ignore screw backlash........ glass scales are accurate to 5 microns (and you need to have a set of gauge blocks to use buttons too)......but I get what you are driving at.
Once you have a DRO and use it you never go back.....EVER......it makes calibrated dials on machines obsolete and can go from Imperial to Metric if required.....can't imagine why anyone would use Imperial now.
BTW....I thought the UK went Metric in 1972 (when I was last there).....why are you still using Imperial measurements?..........only the Yanks like Imperial.
@@gangleweed
RE the scales moving , the scales are not mounted on the feed screw centreline but on the edge of the table or Y axis slide . They are parallel to the feed screw movement for certain but when you clamp the slide any clearance is taken up and this clearance which all machines must have regardless of how small can cause the numbers on a DRO to move .If this movement is not exactly perpendicular to the scale it is magnified by the distance the scale is from the axis centreline , I’m not talking about tool room quality machines that we all would love to have - many have old and worn machines and even the new Asian made stuff can have problems here . So you set it up , zero everything then clamp it up then notice one axis is now reading different - do you re adjust it or leave it ? Did it really move in the direction as stated by the dro or was it a small amount of table twist ?
RE scale accuracy - yes they can read very accurately but did you confirm this and compensate in the settings as per the installation instructions ? Not all scales are created equal and the machine may not be running top end equipment.
I use imperial here because choose to and I know that Dave would have spent his time using it , I can use either imperial or metric and I’m not located in the UK .
These days most of this is not relevant except in a home workshop as the world has gone CNC mad and many of the traditional skills are being lost - at least Dave is trying to keep them alive for those who wish to learn them !
@@ianbertenshaw4350 Well actually the glass scales are on the sides of the table and saddle and any table movement should first be taken up by the gibs......if the table ways are so worn that they wobble then it's a lost cause and glass scales won't do any good.
You have to know your machinery to know where to fix it or adjust it or at worst take it apart and rework the slideways.....if you lack the skill to work on a machine the only solution is to dig deep one time only, take out a mortgage for a couple of grand and buy a forever machine that will be reliable.
I'm a time served fitter and turned and reworking worn machinery has been my life so lucky me.
Incidently, on the cost of machinery, my lathe is a 1930 Colchester Bantam, bought in UK for 70 pounds Sterling and shipped with my belongings to OZ in 1981.....I had to recut all the slideways on the bed with a hand planer before scraping.....long story.
@@gangleweed
Amazing how a comment about using toolmakers buttons has morphed into one about rebuilding a machine so a set of digital scales will read true ! You may need more than a couple of grand to buy a decent machine - my Hafco mill cost a nudge over 2k and it aint nuthin special 🤣
Really enjoyed the video
Glad you enjoyed it Stan. Thanks for watching. Regards.
Watching now again here sir,
Thank you again John. Regards.
Thanks for sharing, after watching I just picked up a set off ebay.
Glad I could help, that now means only 3 left for other people LOL. Enjoy using them. Thanks for the comment. Regards.
Not seen that before. Handy to keep in mind.
Hello Colin, If your part does not have to accurate to the tenth thou, you could make some yourself. Just ensure that you face the end true to the OD before parting off. Thanks for the view. Regards.
Brilliant information thanks
Hello Kit, thanks for watching. Glad it was helpful. Regards.
I had a boss once that always touted how he was a toolmaker, but seems when strolling by my open box, he always had a question of what something was. Amongst the things that he had no clue were a set of toolmaker buttons. He was impressed with my trammel set, he had never seen someone layout a bolt hole pattern, center punch, drill the holes, and everything came within tolerance... he would have flipped if I would have drilled the holes with my hand powered copy of a Cole drill
Thanks for the view and your excellent comment. You boss may have even been just a Relation to the owner, so did not need to know anything. Just a job for the "Boy's" Regards.
Appreciate your effort and dedication to show this technique!
I just can’t understand how you mean to precisely set the buttons on the stock. You mean we need to make a hole for each and thread them up so e can position such buttons?
Hello Edson, thanks for watching and your question. YES, mark out as accurately as you can ALL your intended hole positions, drill and tap a hole for the button screw. The hole in the button is quite a bit bigger than the screw, thus allowing it to be moved around to set the distance accurately, then lock the screw down. Obviously if you need more than 4 accurate holes, you would need several setups. Drill and tap all the holes, pick your first 4 holes, then machine 3 of them. If any other holes are still referenced to to the last button, do not machine it, but remove the plate and set up the next 3 buttons with reference to the remaining button that was set from the first alignment. The number of accurately positioned holes by this method is unlimited. Hope this clarifies the question. Regards.
good video Dave
Thanks very much for your view and comment. Regards.
Thank you for this
My pleasure Dean, thanks for watching. Best Wishes.
thx for the information
Thanks for watching. Good luck finding some and using them. Old technology now superseded by a DRO unit. Regards.
Sir, have you done one on what I was taught to call tooling balls? I do not know what they call them over there. Spheres of a known tolerance for radius used for measuring purposes. I always like that we call things different names but they are the exact same thing.
Hi Scott, thanks for the view and your excellent question. NO I have never uses a tooling ball, but here are 2 links to using them. JOE Pie has a good one. ruclips.net/video/FnEl6Kj-F-E/видео.html
Another one is Mr Crispin, watch from about the 9 minute mark.
ruclips.net/video/55opfN6Bysk/видео.html
Regards.
Thanks Dave
Hi Paul, thanks for the view. Regards.
Am I missing something here Dave? How is this any more accurate than transfer punching? BTW, in Canada, in the 70s transfer punching was taught in grade school industrial arts .
Thanks for the view and your comment. Providing that you have accurately set them up, and dialled it in, this is accurate to Tenths of a thou. To use a transfer punch which I consider is highly inaccurate, you would need a part to punch through. This method is used to make the holes without any other mating part. See this video for the way to transfer holes WITHOUT using transfer punches. Thanks.
ruclips.net/video/ZwxgJn4G2kI/видео.html
Has nothing to do with transfer punches - Toolmakers Buttons are a precision tool - Transfer punches are butchers tools compared to them . Transfer punches are ok if you only want a hole somewhere close to where it needs to be , if you want a hole to be located within a ten thousandths then buttons and indicating is what you need . Set up the button ,set up the job in the mill or even better jig borer , indicate , bore the hole undersize with a slot drill , finish bore to size with a boring bar .
@@ianbertenshaw4350 Hi Ian, thanks for that extra note, some people are so obsessed with Transfer Punches that they have blinkers on when it comes to the CORRECT way of doing things. Thanks for the view. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 Yes, Dave, that video, and your comment about it being an American thing is why I mentioned about it having been taught in Canada... Now since neither you, nor @ian bertenshaw, answered the question of how, just gave the standard British rhetoric of our system is best... HOW is it more precise? Is it about the holes through the buttons being larger than the screw holding it, and therefor being able to take exact location from the gauge blocks?
BTW, I do understand that a "standard" set of transfer punches is no more accurate than a big-box-store set of sale priced HSS twist drills, but, every proper machinist I know, who works in a jobber shop, has a few precision transfer punches that they have had to custom make for a job at one time...
@@trollforge Hello again, thanks for your reply and question. YES, it is because the screw is smaller than the hole in the button that allows it all to work and be the most accurate. Mark and drill as accurate as possible, should be able to get the holes positioned to within 0.015" 1/64", then tap for the screw. As the demonstration showed there was plenty of wiggle room for the button to move in any direction around the screw. Hope you have now grasped the principles behind how they work. Don't know when they were invented, probably over 100 Years ago now. I do know that the Jo Blocks were specially invented for the Ford Factories in the early 1896. Thanks for your interest in the matter. Regards.
Dear God is this really how we used to do this?.
Hi Ryan, Yes it was the only accurate way before about 1970 when the very first DRO's came out. Early DRO were very bulky and did not have the functions that modern day ones have. The Phips one of about 1970 used what were called NIXI tubes for the numbers. It was a vacuum tune filled with neon, about the size of a small radio valve. Inside were wire numbers 0 to 9, they lit up orange when the voltage was applied to whichever number was selected by the electronics box. You could only do 1 measurement, there was no INC or ABS switch, only whatever you had decided it was going to be. Thanks for watching. If you do not have a DRO on your milling machine. it is still the only way to get absolute hole positioning accuracy. Regards.
Can't you just use a drill bushing and a bolt and washer????
Thanks for the question. Yes you could use a drill bushing providing that the end is perpendicular to the OD and that you know the diameter of the bush accuratley. Regards.
Turn up the volume on your microphone. It is hard to hear what you are saying.
Thanks for the view and comment. Duly noted but with over 5 K views and 34 comments, you are the only person to complain, perhaps it is your setup. Regards.
Kids now a days get nervous tapping. It's a shame. They would work harder to skip this method so not have to drill and tap! Scary
Thanks for the view. The screw are probably 6-32 or about 3 mm. No problem tapping if only people were taught properly and did not go about it like a Bull in a China shop.Gently, Gently, Catchy Monkey. Best Wishes.
Video would have been much shorter version if only he had said each word only once.
Thanks for watching. The 8,000 odd views no one else had complained. Regards.
@@daveticehurst4191 Well there you go, now you've learnt something.
We called them Jo blocks in Ford tool room, first made by Johanssons hence the name.
Thanks for the view and comment. Regards.