I am 62 years old. I moved to L.A. in 1982 to become a rock star. I learned that the music industry was not something I was cut out for. It took me 3 years to learn that I could be happy playing locally (first Ohio then Oregon) and teaching. I’m privileged and fortunate to find that out. Discovering what doesn’t work is as important as discovering what does work. “This doesn’t work for me” is not failure. It is success.
I lived in Los Angeles for around a year. My industry was fashion. I worked Downtown Los Angeles and lived in North Hollywood. At first was fun. Fashion has a similar energetic feel and people wanting to be part of the "it" designers. I found out fast Los Angeles is not a great place to try to live a decent life. Yep, I met celebrities and saw many walking around like David Hasselhoff. After a while that wears off too. I moved back to bland Irvine, CA and changed careers.
I had that experience with a very reputable art school. I burned out and realized it was kind of making me miserable. I'm happy to say I still draw, when I feel like it... In ways I feel like drawing.
A musician friend of mine told me, just because you didn't get signed to a label, had a hit, or went on tour, doesn't mean you were not a success. You played out and were part of a scene. Most of all, you play music and it makes you happy. Even now, whether I'm playing on a stage or in my room, I'm thankful for the ability and the opportunity to just play.
The biggest mistake musicians make is making music for others. I'd rather look at it like your making music for yourself and hope others join you in the fun! I I agree 100%. Just see it as a gift to be able to enjoy you're own communion with the music you make. Release it to the world and just hope a few enjoy it as much as you do.
I'm a classical musician, and I've been sober since 2000, and still... Touring is a GRIND. I love the concerts, and l enjoy the people I meet. That said, the long hours of travel followed by the immense high of a great show and then the letdown of an empty hotel room... This is such a deadly combination. And no one wants to hear you complain, or empathize with your struggle, because you are living the dream. I'm so fortunate to have started with a commitment to sobriety. I'm so fortunate that my girlfriend comes with me 95% of the time. Touring alone is just asking for addiction to sex, substances, or cell phones.
This is the truth. I just got back on the road after a couple years away and HOLY SHIT does it take a toll on the mind and spirit but especially the body.
An empty hotel room seems like it would be a welcome respite from the chaos of a performance. Maybe that's just because my brain is chronically hypersensitive and I get overwhelmed easily.
You might try seeing if you can get as much of your idle time spent visiting beautiful churches… Yes to pray and reflect, museums, historical things, anything of serious interest when you travel. It’s no different for me as a businessman it might even be easier because there’s no ‘concert’ to give, presentations, meetings have sparse applause. My father was a famous musician he traveled sporadically because he played mostly symphonic music, jazz and studio gigs. He did spend too much time reading the damn New York Times in the hotel rooms. I can’t wait to get out of a hotel room I spend as much time as I can seeing things even museums in some cities at night. You pick your poison And poisoning your mind, body and soul with good things actually works to your advantage. It’s good to have a companion on the road especially someone who loves you so you have a big plus there.
@@deusexaethera At first it is a substantial relief... Night after night, a strange kind of loneliness sets in for me. It could be a matter of temperament.
I’m a disabled truck driver and an old man now. I’ve been playing guitar for most of my life and writing songs for nearly 50 years. I started publishing my work six years ago and I couldn’t be a touring musician. Im very happy doing it from home. It’s a wonderful thing having people all around the world listening to my music.
Jamey Murphy, I appreciate your contribution and will look up the music you have created. Your example of sharing your work with the world is what we need the most.
I got close to this lifestyle, I was abroad, I was recording, gigging miles away from my family and friends. My mental health deteriorated drastically and I had to return home, the remaining band members scornfully punished me for potentially ruining their careers but some fifteen years later I’m glad I returned home. Now I’m in a band that plays for fun and it’s much better for me. I wasn’t strong enough for what I wanted, but I realised this early and saved myself. It’s not for everyone. I’m happy now.
Excellent video! The unmistakable smell of the hard truth. I was in original bands for years with my best friends. We gave it our best shot, toured and released records, created music that we loved, but never "made it". To support my musical "career", I worked in senior's care homes. I used to see guys who played guitar and sang coming into to entertain for birthday parties and pub nights. "I could do that" I thought. And now I do. I play over 30 gigs a month and I love it. There is very little ego involved and I get to make people happy. Though I didn't see it at the time, looking back it's all too clear: Not being successful in the music biz was the best thing that (n)ever happened to me.
I'm happy you mentioned our adored pop heroes who recently died and the demands they faced with their careers...I heard at the time of his death Prince was working on a project w silicon valley people to digitally archive all his raw studio material so he could create new royalty assignments and pay more to all the artists he's work with on his albums. Even after all those years he saw the value of his music to his fellow collaborators and it was a huge ambition of his during his final years...he had to fight for that vision himself not with any corporate support from the labels--in fact they wanted to keep his material for themselves. These are small collectives of individuals taking on corporate behemoths.
1:54 That's one of the most poignant documentary moments I've ever seen. That image of Dave and Taylor at Wembley, completely ecstatic and entirely shattered. With that line, "Dave Grohl has endured the double tragedy of being both the drummer who lost his frontman and the frontman who lost his drummer." Mary Spender, Brava!
Within the same band, consider Pat Smear. He came up as the guitarist of the LA punk pioneers The Germs, whose singer, Darby Crash, killed himself; was a member (albeit new) of Nirvana when Kurt killed himself; then joined Dave's Foo Fighters, dipped out because it was getting too crazy for his own mental health, then rejoined, only to suffer through the tragic and untimely death of another bandmate.
Great video. I accomplished my childhood dream of becoming a fighter pilot and I held this job for many years. I often felt like a star, standing at my jet at an airshow with a line of people wanting to meet me. But it was a tortured life that I wish I never lived. Every day was survival, not only to keep from dying in an extremely dangerous job, but knowing just a single failure would make me lose my job. People often told me how lucky I was, but I felt the exact opposite.
When I was a teen, Pink Floyd’s Welcome to the Machine was released. After the ubiquity of Dark Side of the Moon, I was impressed at the raw openness with which the band exposed the “machinations” and grist of the music industry. Ironically, PF released The Wall just a few years later and further explored the topic from a psychological impact on the artist’s perspective. Your video is an excellent synopsis of the same topics for modern audiences. Outstanding.
I think bands should be allowed one miserable album or to make miserable music till they make it but when they still make professionally miserable music like Pink Floyd and Radiohead they should be forced to stop by law
RIP Taylor Hawkins. The mental health aspects of touring are a very important thing that so often goes unaddressed. Thank you for shining some light on this.
DAVE wouldn't let him off the tour. Taylor said he couldn't do it. DAVE said F.U. , get behind your kit. Now the Crocodile Tears tour and raking in the sympathy cash. DISPICABLE DAVE.
@@Onemore59 Charity is raking in cash. Why do you think he was taking the pain meds he was taking? An enlarged heart for a few years, and a high altitude in Colombia that required his heart to work harder. A bad recipe. Dave wouldn’t let him? Pat walked away.
@@Onemore59 yeah you’re looking for someone to blame rather than accept he both wanted to keep going at that level and couldn’t keep up at the same time. Dave’s alive so of course he’s the one to blame rather than accept he’s also struggling to keep going and that he was just as close to succumbing to a similar fate. Get a freaking clue!🙄
When I was between the ages 16-22 I was in a band that eventually was scouted by Columbia Records (early 2000's). We were taken out and treated like stars for a brief moment in time. We waned to be road dogs, and we were at the age where we could be, but we only managed to do two month long tours around the US. Eventually they decided that they'd have someone write music for us, because our songs just werent good enough. When we heard that we pulled away and just broke up soon after that. Just seeing the kind of money thrown around with performers that I'd never heard of (and havent seen since) was wild. I'm so glad, now, that we didn't continue in that direction as I feel like I would have gone the same direction as Kurt if I'd gotten even a smidgen of his fame. Mental health is so much more important the "success". Now music is a hobby, and I've become all those people I thought had given up as a kid, but I'm so much happier than I'd have been had I stuck with that band.
🎯👍 Kudos for finding your own road. 🙏 I found being in a couple bands fronted by narcissists (1 capable, 1 not so much..) that because of my comp skills/repertoire exposure, "fill-in" subbing satisfied my "performance jones" and the bulk of my time is writing and recording for an audience of 1... Much, much happier now... Good for you!
@@patrickjordan2233 Maybe the trick for any artist is to create/perform for an “audience of 1” and just see if results resonate with others. I think Ms Eilish has figured that out, although it may be an audience of 2 with her brother because of their artistic connection.
“Life on the road isn’t for everyone” i think the drummer for The Grateful Dead said that in his book. I had friends in a couple of nationally famous bands back in the early 60’s and wanted to follow them so bad and low and behold i got the chance, major label contract, records and all that. Didn’t happen for me and the band. For years i kept at it, still dreaming and then in my forties i chucked the day job and hit the road playing professionally. Lasted 5 years. It wasn’t me. My dream bit me in the ass because i was’t in tune with myself. I wan’t a road warrior and i wasn’t a very competent writer. So i left the road, left the club scene and went back to the place where i started long ago in ‘61. Just a guitar, some audio toys, a recorder just for giggles. Many of my friends are burnt out, club rats or dead. I have four cats. Life is good.
I'm not in a band but that applies to every job where you have to travel. I started a new job a few years ago where i had to travel a lot. I thought it will be absolutely awesome. 4 years later I couldn't cope with it anymore and had to quit. Most people think traveling all the time is great but for most or at least many people it's not the right thing. It can be exhausting both mentally and physically
Good for you John. I think we all had the dream. I ended up in a pub band and then another and another. I chucked the job too. Still doing it 40 years later. I never made the big time but as I take stock and think about it I think I did ok. Playing 5/6 times a week for the last 25 years and I still love it. My job took me to a beautiful island where I now live and play for holiday makers. First time I heard the Beatles at 15 I wanted to do what they did. I am not a big time musician but I am a full time one. Life is indeed good.
Mary, This is just so well said and done. I am a musician. There are so many individuals who want this career. Pretty close to no one shares the information like you did in this video. This video and more need to be done to explain why most don't make no matter their talent and why there's so much death. Well done 👏 Mary.
Both Krist Novoselic and Kim Thyil mentioned the dark side of fame in their recent video with Rick Beato. Also, Krist revealed that Kurt was far more ambitious than he acted like and that Krist would often catch Kurt in this hypocrisy.
@@dnyce6278 really? Dave Grohl, Steve Albini and their manager at Gold Mountain along with Kurt’s guitar tech and Scott Litt (mixed Nirvana records) said the same.
I do not know any ambitious people that killed themselves. I personally know many people that did commit suicide. None were ambitious. Kurt was murdered.
@john Christopher why would you assume that I ever wanted to be a rockstar? There are plenty of other ways to be successful in life, ways that lead to a sustained career.
This speaks directly to me. I’m 42 and have worked as a professional musician most of my adult life. I tried taking my own life twice in 2020 but just after the second attempt found some inner strength somehow. I’ve had to completely reevaluate my life and I’m extremely fortunate to have come out the other side, and in a strong position now. I’m grateful for the support I received regarding my mental health but there’s still a way to go in my opinion. Hopefully there will be more awareness and support moving forward for musicians (and anyone for that matter) suffering with their mental health. No one in any profession deserves to experience this so I am fully committed to giving back now by supporting and helping those in need. Peace, love and respect ✌🏻
Thank you so much for sharing that. Really powerful, and a testament to something that often flies in the face of cultural expectations, and much needed not only for musicians (though it's far too common for us, and other artists.... probably because much of our work is about seeing the world as it is which is sometimes horrifying, and as it could be, which is sometimes depressing AND also ideally hopeful, but it's also so frequently a thankless task...we all NEED art, but don't value artists of every level enough), but everybody, every human in general needs to hear: it's OK to be vulnerable. In fact, it's VITAL to be a REAL person, and understanding and help should always be forthcoming for those in need, and those in need should ALWAYS feel OK seeking it. I'm very happy you have created some positive movement for yourself, and my thoughts are with you. You are one of the beacons needed right now, and I wish and hope all the best not only for you, but those you may help as well. PLUR to you my friend.
And I've just started listening to some of your work...Zenith Glow- "In Your Wake"?! LOVE it!! Amazing chordal tonality, great tone in general, SOLID chops, awesome harmonies, and I really, really dig the lyrics and how you sing them (I noticed hints of this classic vocal quality and little vocal things that might go unnoticed by the general public, but that I've heard in lots of great New Wave and other Britrock stuff, like Robert Smith, Morrisey, Dave Gahan, Simon Le Bon, Damon Albarn and many others, but you kept it very original and made it your own sound...then I realized you actually are from the UK!)...just solid writing and performing. Also listened to your cover of "Cherub Rock"...badass! In other words, you got SKILLS my friend! Subscribed for SURE!! And can't wait to listen to the rest, especially the rest of your originals and that cover of "Mayonnaise" (another of my favorite tunes) and all the rest for that matter! The world is far better off with you in it! 😃
This blew my mind... I really did not realize the huge amount of both physical and mental pressure that professional artists have to bear. Thank you so much. This video needs to be spread 🙏
Not to mention the vast majority of bands/musicians touring are broke. They come home after tour, barely any money earned and they go back to working full time jobs until they save enough money to go on tour again. So the endure all that, yet to gain nothing but debt can add to the mental pressure.
I don't know why or how the RUclips gods were working today but I have only just found your channel and I am going on a serious deep dive of your videos Mary! Absolutely loving your work and nodding to 100% of the words!! I am also a full-time vehemently passionate independent musician and am sponging what you are spilling over here on the channel - it's lovely to hear of another (especially British female) musician being successful and KILLING it with the content, music and business! 🙋♀❤ 🎶
Mary , I am almost 68 and I started my little record label in 1983 with me on it . No compromise . Small tours . Sanity . Musicians must figure away around the industry .
I’ve worked in the record business; I represent artists (photographers) and everything you say here in spot on. Well written, well said and something every musician and artists should hear and understand. ✌🏻
What a truly sad and disturbing video. I’ve been playing music most of my life. Played with a few bands, played a bunch of gigs, recorded some records, wrote hundreds of songs, but never once considered do this “as my job”. I have a lot a respect for those that do, but I know myself too well and it would have not ended well for me. Thanks for bringing this to light!
Tour manager for 8 years with punk, indudtrial and metal. Have heard many wise words and honest admissions, but you nailed it on so many levels. Let me just say thank you.
As a professional drummer, i really had to confront my ambition and disabilities. It was hard, i took a drums teaching job (ended up loving it) And now i find myself able to be ambitious again. I started a RUclips channel and trying to balance everything. So thank you for starting that conversation. I feel less alone 😊
Thank you for speaking on this, you are absolutely necessary. The best way I've been able to cope with the depression of being away from home, friends, and family for so long is to understand that every gig I get is a blessing, and every person in the audience is there for a reason. It's not about you, it's for them. Real humility goes a long way. If you keep this in mind, I wouldn't necessarily say it gets easier, but it does gets more worthwhile. I cannot stress how important it is to love people. Make literally everyone around you seen and heard, whether they're the artist headlining a festival, the sound guy, or the janitor. The joy you get from peace with God and peace with all man in the midst of hardship, mental breakdown, crying before a set, is the only way to get through it in my experience. Life is beautiful, but it doesn't always seem that way. Let's be active reminders for the people around us and the artists that we support. It's now our turn to hold up the world of music, let's give it a great name, let's make it a great place to be.
I have watched literally hundreds of music related videos on YT over the last 5 years. This is far far the best. Having struggled with mental health, I am so grateful for the way you put this video together. Thank you so much.
I have also watches hundreds of music related videos on YT, and have never been disappointed by Mary Spender. For the first time I hit the subscribe button.
Even though I love creating music, it’s almost like a torture. We are a different breed, blessed and cursed at the same time but I wouldn’t have it any other way.. excellent post Mary
Wonderfully put. I would add that in my experience as a performing musician as both a session player and artist for the last 20 years. What I have found to be the key, is constantly defining and being open to redefining what “making it” is to you. Being open to letting that vision mature along with yourself is EVERYTHING for your mental health. It’s no different then a small child saying he/she wants to be an astronaut when he/she grows up and later realizes what that really means is he/she enjoys writing space fiction stories for children’s books or teaching astronomy to a high school class. Unfortunately so many musicians are allowed to become astronauts before they have time to mature into being school teachers because the industry see’s dollar signs on the young artists naivety.
As someone who works "on the other side of the glass" so to speak, I see sides of artists that aren't normally out there with everyone else, unless they have their entourage in the studio with them, you learn things about the artist that they wouldn't even divulge to their closest homeboy. Making and creating music is a very personal thing and part of the problem isn't just touring, it's the whole "manufacturing" of music. It's a grotesque machine that's just made to pump out music for the sake of money and fame rather than promoting artistry. The whole "The hip new thing" coming out every day with artists, singers, and bands is damaging to the art and the creation of it. So many dictators in the process of the creation of said art it loses its artistic value a lot of the time. But yea, when it comes to being on the side of the glass where the music is made and recorded and the faceless artist behind the board, you hear and see things that the world will NEVER hear or see... All the tears, all the joy, all the sadness, depression, and loneliness that come along with it all, the laughter, the happiness, the everything in between. The music industry is a very dark path no matter which side of the glass you work on. A lot of it is sad, but more than quite a bit of it can bring joy and happiness to people who were either thinking about ending their lives or were about to attempt it 5 minutes before hearing that song. Music is very powerful, very dangerous, and if in the wrong hands can be deadly. No matter where you are or what you're doing in the industry. So as I say to any client that comes through my studio that's in it for the fame and glory, I always advise to tread carefully, this industry will take you in, grind you up, and spit you back out as an empty husk after it consumes your soul to its very core.
Well said. I have been a drummer for 45 years - and have chosen to teach (my full time passion for 32 years). The biggest reason for my decision to not "be in a band and tour" echoes many of the points you brought up in this video. After playing in bands, late nights, little sleep, not eating well, etc (for almost 2 decades) - I found the more stable idea of controllable hours to be not only appealing, but absolutely necessary for me to live a healthier life. Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience...much appreciation. Happy drumming... :). "Mr Ed" Round Rock Drums
You are a great writer, presenter, producer AND singer/songwriter. You have so much to fall back on; remember that. I really like how you explain things. You make my life richer. Thank you. But also know that if you ever stop making videos because that endeavor wasn't serving you well, I will be happy for you; I won't in any way feel you let me down.
The music industry still hasn’t away from being like the hardware store during the gold rush. The gold searchers payed too much for shovels in advance and were cheated when they wanted to sell the little gold they found. The music industry still has that rip off mentality.
@@gabe_s_videos Not really - I can’t think of too many startups (which is ultimately what young artists are) who would would accept terms where they would give away sole rights to their IP, and 85% of their turnover to their investors when looking to raise the capital to scale their business. Further to that, they also have to pay back any investment made (aka advances) out of the remaining 15% of turnover, not the 85% already taken by the investors? The hardware store during the gold rush is a pretty apt analogy.
I love this, never heard a better explanation of the reality of the music industry. Superb work Mary. I know we all want to be a rock star but perhaps its not all its cracked up to be.
This! This video is everything what Im trying to explain to people when they ask me why I never really went on going as the drummer of a famous singer.
Creative people are often driven, passionate, self-critical, oversensitive, highly self-aware, people pleasers. Often they have ADHD making them hyper focused, hard-working and prone to exhaustion mentally and physically. They are also deficient in certain hormones, and addiction is often a result of dopamine deficiency. I think the word "ambition" overshadows these core personality traits that are so prevalent not just in ambitious musicians but creative people in all areas of life. Ambition, you could argue, could be replaced for "fanatical / dedicated / focused" (I remember seeing once a statement "Obsessed is what lazy people call the dedicated" - I like that one). The answer I feel has to come from within. Some people are able to recognize the changes that need to be made and some are unable to. Some dont want to - in fear of becoming something they cannot recognize or live with. This entire piece is really about the psychology of the creative personality so its interesting to see your take on it and yes - I see it in you of course.
This is such an eye-opening video. I love playing music and songwriting, but I'm glad I found a new path where I can still make music on my spare time and not feeling overwhelmed by it.
You’re doing something new, I feel. I appreciate this type of video essay, commentary; whatever you want to call it. This is good. You’re calm, relatable, sympathetic, and genuine. Definitely do this for as long as you wish, but never longer than you want.
Thank you, Mary. I am a musician and a mental health counselor. My own daughter attempted suicide in 2019 at the age of 15 due to a combination of the affects from being sexually assaulted at 13 by neighborhood boys, and the influences of so called friends on social media. By only the grace of God, she survived and is a proponent of suicide prevention now at 18. More people need to speak up. I am constantly reminded of the massive weight of anxiety and depression in our world population right now. Suicide numbers are at an all time high. The overwhelming hopelessness felt by adolescents and young adults is a heavy weight that feels unbearable. There are solutions. This is senseless death that is preventable. Thank you for being part of the solution. Just one more reason I am a fan.
@Jonathan Orris I am so glad she is still here with you, and kudos for your ability to see the causes honestly and supporting her through it all. May you and your daughter be the change your community needs, and may you both receive all the support you need.
Thank you so much for this and other blogs that address the reality of being a musician/ artist! Intelligent & thought provoking conversation. I admire your diligence and independence, I’m a 67yo retiree. In my youth i wanted to be a pro musician ( Bass). It never happened, life changed, but i still love listening to good music, especially, prog rock & Jazz ( Lee Ritenour, Fourplay etc) Your vlogs on these subjects are GOLDEN & should be mandatory watching & listening too by any aspiring musician to equip them for what is to come. Despite it all, music is still food for the sole ❤️👏🏻❤️
i've always thought (and been told) that music is my thing. i've always played in bands, i went to audio engineering school and wanted to make it my career. two years ago, after a very long struggle with trying to find my place in the music industry i decided to scrap it and pursued a career in software development. now that i'm seeing the friends i've always played with start catching some momentum and move to the next level career wise, all i can think of when i see the stress they're put through is "thank god i'm out of this"
As a "retired" gigging musician, I quit playing in bands and just jam at home and have fun. The grind of playing in multiple bands at once turned my into a drug addict. My back was destroyed from constantly moving my drums. But I didn't quit. My bands just kind of fizzled out. And I was grateful.
You could’ve just had other people move stuff for you. But I do think jamming at home is the best. Too bad I’m homeless and all my equipment is in a storage unit
This is a very smart woman. I wish you would talk about what she thinks is going to happen to the music industry in five years 10 years or even 20 years. There of been people that have suggested that we really don’t need giant labels anymore. At least not labels like Sony union in Warner Music Group they have 5000 people plus. But here’s the big question the $64,000 question. Do they write the songs. In most cases know. Do they perform the songs. In most cases no. Do they produce the songs. In most cases no. And here’s the last really important question did they find an audience for the song? Well most people would say yes but the answer is really no ! All they do is go to radio stations at least in the past and now streaming sites presently and say will you expose my artist will you popularize my artist? The fact is is that they don’t make the music and they don’t find an audience for the music there’s a reason why too and people like George Howard a Berklee school of music one of the most admired musical professors at one of the most prestigious musical schools has explained why. There’s far too many things to go into here but I wanted to say that this woman Dash Mary spender is a very bright lady. She talks a lot about the ups and downs of the music industry but the fact is that the music industry has no chance of growing or flourishing at least for musicians and created people unless musicians form a union Which day of thus far for reasons no one knows form a union and insist that they get treated fairly in a transparent industry. There is no transparency in this current music industry and no fairness
do you think if musicians were paid better, less of us would encounter these problems? it seems like the stress of overworking is what leads to so many addictions
@@sonicimperium I lost my close friend/lead singer and guitarist on may 14th right before we started practicing again. he had just turned 20. these things can be very real
@@sonicimperium How do you know? You don't know this person, depression and suicide is a serious issue, Please don't make light of it... And be a human..
My father and grandfather were musicians and it was my father’s dream that my brothers and I would follow in his footsteps and join the band. That did not happen and it bothered him some, particularly when my younger brothers got into drugs and dropped out from school. I joined the US Navy and afterwards went to technical college. He lumped me into the same bucket as my brothers. Gratefully, he was not suicidal, particularly after divorce. The problem with being an artist, be it a musician or painter/sculptor, is that in order to be fulfilled you need acceptance and adoration. If you’re not widely accepted, it is a huge blow to one’s self-worth. It is not for the faint of heart. And once you achieve success, it may be short lived. That is a tightrope existence. Mary, thank you for taking on this difficult subject and the other ones you have covered regarding earning a living. You are doing other artists & the general public a favor by showing the seedier side of the business. I for one am more appreciative of your lives. I hope you have success in your art & chosen profession. I enjoy your vlogs.
Ive been an amateur singer/songwriter for over 25 years, I had great times but faced the dark side of it as well. You explained spot on how hard and all consuming the music industry is, I wish you all the best.
I really don't know what to say. In my view with this you've gone from a massively interesting musician with insightful experiences to an empathetic and relatable voice that hits home on important topics. This hits close to home for me and I really appreciate the hours and hours of time you took to prepare this and present it so compellingly. Thank you very much.
Considering how hard life has been over the years, I count myself lucky that I didn't get tied up in the industry. I love music but looking back and knowing what I know about it now... I would never have survived. Thanks for all the really great content.
This video meant a great deal to me. As a musician in this day and age, I battle consistently with ambition. Ambition to be a professional guitar hero, to teach, to tour, to show all my nay sayer’s that they were wrong. But thirst such as this kills me slowly, I’ve found. The more I want to accomplish, the less I can write. I have to kind of open up the “professional pressure cooker” to get things done. I also battle with a multitude of physical and mental disabilities that hold me back from my dreams, at least to a point. And I have questioned whether or not I should go on from time to time. The balance I’ve found is playing live recordings on RUclips and playing a little live music locally. Busking helps me as well. And I play guitar daily. I can be my own personal guitar hero.
@@franka2743 Typical negative reply of someone who would never do anything for free. She is earning from RUclips now but ever thought about all the videos she did before she built up a following - through hard, unpaid work? and this information is still free for you when many in the industry would charge for it. What is you contribution?
That was an exceptional intelligent, serious and open statement about the unseen costs of the music business. Makes you an even nicer person and musician in my mind 🙂
I had a recording studio in the 90s and a band named Rein Santion came in. They had just been dropped from Subpop records ( same time as Nirvana). They had pised away all the money the record company gave them and Subpop dropped em.. They were awesome but a wreck. Now they're still going but on a Street corner in Nashvillle. I definitely would have died if I was a rockstar. Thank God I'm just a normal dude still having fun playing at 61.
A great video. Kurt's death shook me deeply. I was 14 and rock stars have never been the same to me since. I was/am friends with a band that was on a major label and on the edge of almost crossing into actual fame and it was nothing like people fantasized about (positively or negatively). A band that went on tour with one of the biggest bands in the world at the time, and was eating Hot Pockets for breakfast because that's all there was money for. The label threw them away like trash and still made it nearly impossible for them to continue (which they thankfully have managed to do in a capacity). Having seen that and experienced some fraction of "micro fame" makes me a lot happier to just be able to live off of my art and aspire to no more than maybe just living fairly above average. I aspire to more, but understand what "more" can mean, so I approach with caution. For musicians, this is why I like the idea of circumventing the traditional music industry entirely. The "Suits" are often useless and wasteful. Back to my friends, in your case, you are very wise to be blazing your own path. I hope you continue to have success and avoid those industry scum that talk big and deliver in the complete opposite direction.
Marillion are a great example. In the 80s, they had chart success. Played stadiums, and all over the world. Didn't make much money, but they were noticed. It led directly to a fractious breakup with their lead singer at the time, over precisely the album/tour/album/tour merry go round the suits put you on. They replaced him & carried on, but after two more albums they were dropped by their record label EMI. So they formed their own record label. Self published. Asked their loyal fans to preorder albums before they were made, and fund tours. They are credited with 'inventing' crowd-funding as a concept. Now, after 19 albums, and regular sell-out tours and 'weekends', they are comfortably off. Radio doesn't play them. They get no mainstream attention or exposure at all, that you would get with a record label, but it doesn't matter. They can take three years to craft an album, and it's fine. They're not loaded, but not skint either. All financed by a small but loyal worldwide fanbase. They call it "a better way of life" and it's hard to argue with that.
Thank you for doing this video, Mary. I toured in my teens and early 20's. Now, I'm 40 and back into full time music and performing. I've always struggled with most of what you mentioned here (contemplating suicide, driven to outdo myself, but then collapsing under the pressure). It's a strange balance and I'm only now starting to understand it. Thanks again.
Johnny made a record, Went straight up to number one, Suddenly everyone loved to hear him sing the song. Watching the world go by, surprising it goes so fast. Johnny looked around him and said, 'Well, I made the big time at last'. Don't you know, don't you know, Don't you know that you are a shooting star, Don't you know, oh, yeah, Don't you know that you are a shooting star, yeah, And all the world will love you just as long, As long as you are, a shooting star. Bad Company, Shooting Star. For me, this sums it all up. We all know fame and fortune can be a heavy thing, but honestly, we all think that just happens, "to that other guy. I can handle this." Well, to that other guy, YOU are the other guy. Thank you for doing this upload, Mary.
Thank you for doing this. Often times being a “musician” isn’t a choice-we are compelled. Only musicians know this. So, as a musician trying to make a living, we have to say “yes” to just about anything which leads to awful situations.
Thank you for this! As a full time professional musician one of the HARDEST aspects of it is that so much of the public simply doesn’t want to hear how goddamn hard it is. Physically, mentally, emotionally and financially. It’s brutal in so many ways but if you talk about it on Twitter a lot of normal folks are going to think you are ungrateful for how lucky you are to get to be a working musician. And yes, I’m lucky I get to make music professionally, and very grateful. But I’ve also suffered terribly to stay doing it like so many musicians have and do. Thank you for raising awareness of the COST of it all 🙏🙏🙏
I'm an artist/ illustrator and we face similar problems...if we slack off once or show signs of " I'm bored ' a company/ art house will fire you in a split of a second, and replace you with another artist who is hungry. It sucks it does. Everyone thinks it's great I get to work at home and draw/ paint book covers or logos even comicbook covers. ..but it's not great all the time. Most of the time it bloody sucks. I hate it sometimes because it's a business now, it's not a hobby. The money I make is great but it's not stable. I'm on food stamps at the moment....let that sink in. So I understand how musicians feel....it's a tough life. 🙏🏻
Mary, thank you SO much for this video and for sharing what I and so many other musicians/vocalists battle daily. Our lives can be very difficult, from the stifled creativity due to working a "real" job to the isolation we feel by being the only creative in our family or circle of friends. I am not ashamed at all to admit that you had me in tears the entire time. I play four instruments and have a 5 octave vocal range. Yet I drive 2 hours one way to work a normal job every day just to support my family. It is a constant mental health struggle and it is SO comforting hearing at least ONE person who understands. Again I say thank you ❤️
Mary, thank you so much for this. I used to tour, trying to make it in various punk and alternative bands and I ended up walking away from music for close to 8 years. That was a mistake. But it just goes to show what even TRYING to make it in this industry does to someone's passion and joy in life.
I don't know how I arrived here, but this is a very relevant video. Thank you for doing that. As a filmmaker, I shot a lot of music videos, not with a big budget, but independent videos with independent musicians. Also, I directed some rockumentaries. One of them, "La inercia de la costumbre" with the Spanish folk singer Manolo Tarancon, we discussed this, the pressure of recording an indie album, the touring, and the recognition. Reality has changed a lot since then, but the topics remain. You can find the documentary on youtube. Thanks again, Mary.
After 27 years of touring as an artist/engineer/stage manager, I sold my company in 2018 to concentrate on recording and playing small solo covers shows and small originals gigs with my band. I can’t tell you how much happier it’s made me! Stress and pressure will kill you. It’s that simple.
I agree with you totally with your method of music. Small solo cover shows small original gigs, throw in youtube and your making a living without the leeches affecting your life. Stay in total control of your business and have a life to boot.
Great video, Mary. To break the destructive cycle, more discussion needs to happen about the rights of musicians. The "business" part of music is made for the benefit of everyone in the business but the artist. If you're FORCED to tour and subject yourself to the pain of being on the road just to make ends meet, there's a root cause.
Never before have I heard someone put it so precisely and so perfectly. You have hit the nail on the head in so many ways! As young musicians we all get caught up in the rockstar thing. And to quote Taylor himself, I’m not a rockstar... I’m a musician. Thank you for making this video! I will be sharing it with a few younger musicians I know and (hopefully) waking them up before they too make the mistakes that I made many years ago. Cheers Mary! Keep up the good work!
I used to say that "music can be a harsh mistress". Mary corrects that statement pointing to ambition and not music that is the harsh mistress. I completely agree after watching this.
It is the same for gigging musicians who play live for a living. 3 sets of 45 will take its toll on you sooner or later. Thanks for shedding a light on that!
Thank you for talking about this, Mary; issues like this are often swept under the rug and either discounted or often belittled. All we can do is keep talking about it and raise awareness. Bravo, well done. 🙂
I certainly feel this. Even though I've never broken through when I was performing I play some decent shows with support slots up to 500 cap, but if you become disconnected from the music you're performing night after night can be so damaging to mental health. I watched a frontman of one of my bands deteriate over just a 10 date UK tour as he was in a different mindset from when he wrote their record and reliving trauma that went into the record broke him and it pains me to be see anyone in that position let alone friends. Just look after yourselves and know what is best for you, even if it means stepping back for a bit
Very well done video. I’ve been blessed to make a living in music since 1989. I’ve been through everything discussed in this informative clip. Moved to Hollywood at 18, success at a young age, money, divorce, currently in divorce #2. Drugs, lots of drinking, girls I’ve been thrown out of a country on my first big tour (with the entire band/crew). Drug overdoses, some on purpose. Band mates and friends die. One thing I’ve found as a constant that this video doesn’t mention is that every successful musician, and some of my acting friends have many issues stemming from multitudes of “X” factors usually at young age. It’s like all the mental issues made me tap in to the fringes as a songwriter, deep inside my not so happy emotionally erratic mind at times. We have this brotherhood and sisterhood of not fitting in with normal day to day life. Music gave me a family of others like me for better or worse. Music Is Life only thing I know that will always be there and never leave me until my last breath. Peace to all, we all have our crosses to bear. 💟☮️💟
Thank you for this beautifully put together essay. The implications of this video reach so much wider than just music, but at the same time, encapsulate the industry’s issues quite well indeed.
It really is an excellent video. It made me think of one person in particular: Daniel Johns, formerly of Silverchair. Daniel is one of my favorite humans ever. The album Diorama changed my life...it's a 10/10 perfect album. People who only know stuff from Frogstomp...are missing out in a BIG way. But....Daniel is still alive, somehow. He's dealt with _immense_ depression and anxiety and illness and addiction for 20 years now. I've often been worried I'd wake up to find out he'd killed himself or overdosed. He actually just posted, on his channel, the first interview he's done in ages....dealing directly with all this. It's super candid and honest and difficult to watch at times. Daniel is a once in a generation talent....a musical creative genius.....and the industry of it all damn near killed him. And it still might. Thankfully he's stopped touring altogether and only works in the studio now. Thankfully he can afford to do that. But he's still got some pretty intense demons weighing on him....especially severe anxiety and addiction to drugs and alcohol. I want the best for him. He's already changed my life with his music. But people like him have a level of ambition, including creative ambition, that is orders of magnitude beyond most people. idk....I'm kinda ranting a bit now. This all just made me think of him in particular. Because if I HAD to wager.....I honestly might bet that he won't be alive in 5 years. And that's a scary thought. Life is too hard sometimes.... On the totally other side of the coin...................another of my all time favorite artists is Aurora. She is a mesmerizing creative force. If you don't know her, stop everything and go watch her live concert at Nidarosdomen Cathedral. That concert legit changed my life. But Aurora, quite the opposite of Daniel Johns, has approached her fame and touring and the pressures of the industry with THE BEST mindset I've ever seen. Her approach is honestly the healthiest way to go about being a touring artist today. Not everyone can pull off what she has....she's quite unlike most people, in a lot of ways. But she's an excellent role model for people like us to aspire to.....
Thank You for this video, Mary! In my younger days I had a few whiffs of life on the road. Apart from its dangers it can be addicting, too. When You have made it through a stressful travelling day and a great night's show, You feel almost invincible for a little while. No idea, what fame feels like, though. But commercial failure isn't easy to handle either. Now, there are traps everywhere in this business and it attracts vulnerable souls. Just ask Yourself: Who in their right mind would enjoy standing in front of a crowd of total strangers, pouring their heart out?
Hi - musician here too. I’m re-evaluating everything, tbh. For me, it’s like this: the music industry gives this, sometimes absolutely accurate, representation of itself that it can externally validate who has that “it” quality. It gives the external validation. The whole “getting discovered” thing. What I’ve found as a woman in this weird game built around music is that I had the ability to discover myself. After I really got this for myself, everything changed. The mental and physical tolls from constantly grinding myself into the floor of music studios, stages, basement shows, bars, social media, etc. really became clear. I finally noticed how unhealthy it was getting for me. I am still a musician and, yeah, tbh, super ambitious, but I don’t do 24/7 anymore. I work my a** off, yes, but I’m learning the balance and not hyper focusing anymore. It’s actually foreign and weird and fantastic. A bit scary, actually, but a really really good scary bc it’s a different way of life entirely. Take care of yourselves, my musician friends. 💗
Perfectly explained and said, this topic needed to be shared. It's alarming how many musicians take their own lives and die very young due to suicide or addictions. New musicians need to understand that success and the touring life are not for everyone and that same lifestyle can have a toll on ur health and leave u in a dark path.
I’ve spent much of my life - I’m 70 - hanging around the blues scene here in St. Louis, and spent a number of years writing interviews for the local papers. The people who seem to last the longest and can stay sane seem to be the ones who see the music as a craft that they practice, and keep it partitioned from their “real self,” whatever it is they do and think off stage. People like Doc Watson, Leo Kottke, Jerry Jeff Walker, Chris Smither, Bugs Henderson, John Hammond - the musicians’ musicians - are some of the finest people I ever met. But from what I’ve seen when a person bases his “sense of identity” with what self-validation he gets from “stardom” he’s headed for a death match with reality. So maybe the question one should ask oneself is “Am I good enough to earn respect from the musicians I respect?”
exactly, when you're yearning for the recognition of a big audience, but underneath that, you actually need something else (more real/tangible), but you don't see or feel that anymore, 'cause you're only focused on the fame..
I lived near St. Louis for eight years and well acquainted with the blues scene having experienced it. It's very rich. Almost proprietary in its own way. The musicians there just like doing what they do and as long as they can keep it going all the better. Life is full of tragedies no matter what level of recognition comes your way. The only thing that matters is if you get knocked down to have the knowledge that it's not the end of the world. Once you accept that concept it's easier to get back up.
A very talented musician and songwriter...and also an articulate and smart young lady...and now add to that ....a journalist taking on a difficult subject with tact and poise.
As a young aspiring musician/artist this video has served as a strong warning to be careful what you wish for! But also to really think about the kind creative I want to be! Thank you Mary for sharing this insightful and thought provking video :)) l
“They kick me out of the band and I just don’t understand Just when things were going so grand They kicked me out of the band “ A line from a Commander Cody song . Great fun song . Personally it really happened to me and is probably why I’m still alive. The drug culture around music is seductive and deadly I wouldn’t have survived.
Hahaha, I don't believe it Da, da, ah, ah don't touch me Hey ray, hey sugar, tell them who we are Well, we're big rock singers We got golden fingers And we're loved everywhere we go ("That sounds like us") We sing about beauty and we sing about truth At ten thousand dollars a show (right) We take all kinds of pills that give us all kind of thrills But the thrill we've never known Is the thrill that'll getcha when you get your picture On the cover of the Rollin' Stone
As a musician who had these dark urges and attempts you mentioned, this video completely changed my outlook on everything. I was abandoned randomly by an industry level company and ever since then ive been trying to climb my way back up. Randomly i decided to delete most of my social media and to just stick with youtube. Tik tok had bred a toxicity and competitiveness in me i couldnt shake until deleting it. Friends and family have judged me for ditching my following and socials, but im hoping to start a new musical life. From the comfort of my home, from youtube a platform ive loved since a child. Im hoping this caters to my health and wellbeing far better. I wish any other musicians out there good luck on their journey
This is amazing. I think it relates to anyone pursuing a career in the arts, music or otherwise... the insecurities, feeling like the bottom can drop out anytime, always someone behind your back wanting what you have, might have or think you have, people and sometimes "friends" trying to use you... As a musician and photographer of more than 20 years I've experienced all that, on a much smaller level, but it's always present. Know thyself, stand your ground, buckle up!
Mary, This is a brilliant exposition of the hazards of “making it” in the music industry. I’ve often wondered how musicians manage the multiple demands of fans, producers and others. Thanks for shedding a light on this dark side.
Thank you for shining a light on the unglorious aspect of musical fame. When I was young I dreamed of being like my favorite artists and being famous.They made it look fun and seemed to live a "perfect" life. As I've grown older and read time and again of the struggles, insecurities, and the abuses of the industry itself that artists have endured, I thank my lucky stars that I never entered that arena. I would not have the emotional and physical stamina to endure what many of them have gone through. I am glad to see many artists these days taking control of their own destiny and doing things through social media and other distribution sources that allow them to reap the monetary compensation. We don't need to make our favorite musicians into heroes. We only need to enjoy their works and show them our appreciation. By making artists "larger than life" we burden them with having to live an inhuman and inhimane life. I wish more people would talk about this and less time spent on looking at people as idols. Musicians are talented and often extraordinarily hard working people. The can bring us joy and enlightenment, but they deserve to be seen as the people that they are and not as idols that must be raised to a pantheon that become a cage of misery for them.
Mary. That was brilliant and so well articulated. When I was younger none of this support advice knowledge was shared.. it was real cloak and dagger stuff. Even as a Songwriter in my 50s.. its wonderful to know that your so open sharing your guidance and education on this subject . I'm a Songwriter with a day job.. and I throw up a release on RUclips/ Spotify when I can. Views are lovely. But the important part is the joy I get playing with other musicians . It has become a love thing for me now. When I was younger it was what I really wanted to do and make it big. The blessing is.. had that happened.. I too would be on the dead list also. I wasn't emotionally strong.. nor intelligent enough to out witt the giant machine. I'm happy that the playing field is finding its balance. Thank you. "Keep on keeping on" 🥰🐦
One thing that is severely overlooked in here is the life surrounding music is perpetuating us into lives of addiction and feeling inadequate when all we do is get taken advantage of. People in the music scene got me on hard drugs, and once I switched to heroin, they all of a sudden pulled the rug out as if they didn't give it to me. They only care about us when they're making money off us, when we're fucked up, when we're that emotional wreck on stage who just gives every ounce of their pain into the music, but once they can't get that, they don't care.
As always, very clear, direct, and important. As a newcomer musician, it has been remarkable to see how difficult it is to get started and get going live, and the array of people needed to make that happen. I'm still doing it mostly alone, but hearing you talk about this resonates so much. Thank you, and we all need to support our local indie artists and their releases and live shows!
This was exceptionally well done and contributes powerfully to the conversation. It also serves as a good reminder that music is about a lot more than likes, views, popularity, or even fame. Given the fragility of most creatives (and I include myself among the fragile), we need to be reminded that we are all more than the measure of our success. Play music for its own sake, because you love it. Like Josh Homme once said, "if you expect anything of music, then you expect too much."
God bless you, Mary Spender. You are a beautiful soul. And I think you Get It. A street musician in my neighborhood named Gary shared with me once that the Lord put all of the Notes we would ever play inside of each of US. For our Healing. That may sound weird to some people, but regardless. Ambition used well is a tool. I like that. My friend and producer Tom used to say that Everything in Life can be used as either a Tool, a Crutch or an Addiction depending on what you do with it. Music is my Anti-drug. Or as Tina Bailey always says, Music is Life. Much Love and Respect Mary Spender.
And by the way where did this stupid phrase “good on you” come from.? England? Sounds like you’re jackin’ it with yer buds In a bukake session… The phrase is ‘good for you’, you’re not dumping good all over somebody you don’t dump a bag of good all over someone. It’s not a commodity FFS
This 11 min video gave me a heap of negative flashbacks from past touring days that I’d likely forgotten about due to now having a more happy and grounded way of life. Ambition is definitely a double edged sword. Find the balance! Fantastic video Mary, keep it up!
It's super nice if you can find that life partner and start the settled in lifestyle. I mean really thats what we get into music for in the first place right? To be recognized so that we can do what? Meet somebody we want to F**K and hopefully marry them and then leave all this touring shit behind lol. Then there's people like me hopelessly single and doomed to die on the road.
Thank you Mary, this was such a needed intelligent insight into the music industry. Being nearly 50 myself and only just started learning to play the guitar (2years in), even I feel the tugs on my heart strings of ambition.
What an amazingly thorough video. I am a royalty manager at a well established business management firm, but have always aspired to be the songwriter/artist/performing on tour. Unfortunately, the realities I saw and experienced in the music business have always detoured me from fully immersing myself and jumping head first into the abyss. I love performing music for an audience more than anything, but the manipulation within the industry and the constant competition is extremely challenging and grueling. I am always looking for better ways to create community, thank you for sharing this video with us.
Hey, tremendously well researched and well spoken video! I used to be in a folk band that toured around Canada. It was sad and kind of hard to let go of but, as a result, I have been able to be there with my family as they grow up. I now play live regularly on the local, regional circuit and make my primary living as a teacher. I find that as long as I play meaningful gigs that are received relatively well by people that I care to be around, often that is enough.
Ms. Spender would easily outperform most politicians. The clarity and seriousness of this video are amazing. It could be interesting to see her talking to Imogen Heap, who had started some interesting new ways for doing music business beyond big corporations taking most of the pie. Dont know about the progress of it..
Great talk. As a musician who tried from the 70's through the 90's, finally admitting it wasn't going to happen was hard, but at the same time, it was a relief. You brought up excellant points about all the pitfalls, and what to watch out for.
Thank you for this. This is a very important topic that I don't talk about. We so quickly idolize our hero's, instead of looking at them as a human being which cause an inhuman expectation for both them and us. Thank you so much.
Ambition should be looked at and respected like any dangerous machine, like a car or a gun. With careful use, it benefits and empowers, with careless use it will destroy you and perhaps others in your wake. Mary, this is great advice for ALL people let alone musicians...
When my band, my job were at their peak, I felt possessed. My relationship with my now 15 year wife suffered to the point of almost ending, my friends stopped talking to me. Family gatherings were far and few between, I was always too exhausted to even enjoy it. I now work with my wife, we have our own business. I make enough, but I am happy. Even tho I have no band anymore, and I have fond memories. My journey taught me ambition and goals should be set to satisfy all things in your life. If there is no balance, then your success and money is all an illusion. Some people don't find this out till much later. I feel lucky to have figured this out while I was younger
Exact same story here. I used to play 3 gigs per weekend as a dj. Played pretty big venues and clubs. Even had a show on national radio. But I was always tired during the day. And my relationships started suffering. When you play a lot it really puts you in a weird state of isolation. Also the people you meet in the night are either drunk, drugged or just plain weird. So happy I realised this soon enough.
Yeah, it's only the lonely musician who can understand what it is like to have a job that takes up most of their time and keeps them away from their family. Such a unique place to be as a person.
I am 62 years old. I moved to L.A. in 1982 to become a rock star. I learned that the music industry was not something I was cut out for. It took me 3 years to learn that I could be happy playing locally (first Ohio then Oregon) and teaching. I’m privileged and fortunate to find that out. Discovering what doesn’t work is as important as discovering what does work. “This doesn’t work for me” is not failure. It is success.
Yes so true
I lived in Los Angeles for around a year. My industry was fashion. I worked Downtown Los Angeles and lived in North Hollywood. At first was fun. Fashion has a similar energetic feel and people wanting to be part of the "it" designers. I found out fast Los Angeles is not a great place to try to live a decent life. Yep, I met celebrities and saw many walking around like David Hasselhoff. After a while that wears off too. I moved back to bland Irvine, CA and changed careers.
I had that experience with a very reputable art school. I burned out and realized it was kind of making me miserable. I'm happy to say I still draw, when I feel like it... In ways I feel like drawing.
Profoundly True statement!!! Would be such a blessing to be able to learn that when you're young!
Yep.
A musician friend of mine told me, just because you didn't get signed to a label, had a hit, or went on tour, doesn't mean you were not a success. You played out and were part of a scene. Most of all, you play music and it makes you happy. Even now, whether I'm playing on a stage or in my room, I'm thankful for the ability and the opportunity to just play.
Great comment.
The biggest mistake musicians make is making music for others. I'd rather look at it like your making music for yourself and hope others join you in the fun! I I agree 100%. Just see it as a gift to be able to enjoy you're own communion with the music you make. Release it to the world and just hope a few enjoy it as much as you do.
I'm a classical musician, and I've been sober since 2000, and still...
Touring is a GRIND. I love the concerts, and l enjoy the people I meet. That said, the long hours of travel followed by the immense high of a great show and then the letdown of an empty hotel room... This is such a deadly combination. And no one wants to hear you complain, or empathize with your struggle, because you are living the dream.
I'm so fortunate to have started with a commitment to sobriety. I'm so fortunate that my girlfriend comes with me 95% of the time.
Touring alone is just asking for addiction to sex, substances, or cell phones.
I love how you mention cell phones as a problem. All the good things can be addictions on the extremes.
This is the truth. I just got back on the road after a couple years away and HOLY SHIT does it take a toll on the mind and spirit but especially the body.
An empty hotel room seems like it would be a welcome respite from the chaos of a performance. Maybe that's just because my brain is chronically hypersensitive and I get overwhelmed easily.
You might try seeing if you can get as much of your idle time spent visiting beautiful churches… Yes to pray and reflect, museums, historical things, anything of serious interest when you travel. It’s no different for me as a businessman it might even be easier because there’s no ‘concert’ to give, presentations, meetings have sparse applause.
My father was a famous musician he traveled sporadically because he played mostly symphonic music, jazz and studio gigs. He did spend too much time reading the damn New York Times in the hotel rooms.
I can’t wait to get out of a hotel room I spend as much time as I can seeing things even museums in some cities at night. You pick your poison And poisoning your mind, body and soul with good things actually works to your advantage. It’s good to have a companion on the road especially someone who loves you so you have a big plus there.
@@deusexaethera At first it is a substantial relief... Night after night, a strange kind of loneliness sets in for me. It could be a matter of temperament.
I’m a disabled truck driver and an old man now. I’ve been playing guitar for most of my life and writing songs for nearly 50 years. I started publishing my work six years ago and I couldn’t be a touring musician. Im very happy doing it from home. It’s a wonderful thing having people all around the world listening to my music.
Yes me2
Jamey Murphy, I appreciate your contribution and will look up the music you have created. Your example of sharing your work with the world is what we need the most.
@@terrybelanger8535 Thanks Terry
Writer get paid more anyway.
The problem isn’t artistic ambition. The problem is the corporate music industry. Screw those guys.
The music industry is the Devil
They suck but it's up to the artist to get the business in order and keep from being screwed. It has been done even if the execs don't like it
Bing Pot!!! also iykyk that reference I made
"The #1 mistake bands make is that they think they can outsmart the system"
Steve Albini
Frank Zappa penned some very memorable lyrics about the Music Execs!! LOL
I got close to this lifestyle, I was abroad, I was recording, gigging miles away from my family and friends. My mental health deteriorated drastically and I had to return home, the remaining band members scornfully punished me for potentially ruining their careers but some fifteen years later I’m glad I returned home. Now I’m in a band that plays for fun and it’s much better for me. I wasn’t strong enough for what I wanted, but I realised this early and saved myself. It’s not for everyone.
I’m happy now.
You were strong enough to know what you needed, physically and mentally. Good on you! Much happiness for your future!
Excellent video! The unmistakable smell of the hard truth.
I was in original bands for years with my best friends. We gave it our best shot, toured and released records, created music that we loved, but never "made it".
To support my musical "career", I worked in senior's care homes. I used to see guys who played guitar and sang coming into to entertain for birthday parties and pub nights.
"I could do that" I thought.
And now I do. I play over 30 gigs a month and I love it. There is very little ego involved and I get to make people happy.
Though I didn't see it at the time, looking back it's all too clear: Not being successful in the music biz was the best thing that (n)ever happened to me.
I'm happy you mentioned our adored pop heroes who recently died and the demands they faced with their careers...I heard at the time of his death Prince was working on a project w silicon valley people to digitally archive all his raw studio material so he could create new royalty assignments and pay more to all the artists he's work with on his albums. Even after all those years he saw the value of his music to his fellow collaborators and it was a huge ambition of his during his final years...he had to fight for that vision himself not with any corporate support from the labels--in fact they wanted to keep his material for themselves. These are small collectives of individuals taking on corporate behemoths.
1:54 That's one of the most poignant documentary moments I've ever seen. That image of Dave and Taylor at Wembley, completely ecstatic and entirely shattered. With that line, "Dave Grohl has endured the double tragedy of being both the drummer who lost his frontman and the frontman who lost his drummer." Mary Spender, Brava!
Yes...heavy!
A bit of a coincidence, wouldn't you think?
oh yeah...SO powerful.
Within the same band, consider Pat Smear. He came up as the guitarist of the LA punk pioneers The Germs, whose singer, Darby Crash, killed himself; was a member (albeit new) of Nirvana when Kurt killed himself; then joined Dave's Foo Fighters, dipped out because it was getting too crazy for his own mental health, then rejoined, only to suffer through the tragic and untimely death of another bandmate.
@@dougman23 nobody cares about pat smear lol
Great video. I accomplished my childhood dream of becoming a fighter pilot and I held this job for many years. I often felt like a star, standing at my jet at an airshow with a line of people wanting to meet me. But it was a tortured life that I wish I never lived. Every day was survival, not only to keep from dying in an extremely dangerous job, but knowing just a single failure would make me lose my job. People often told me how lucky I was, but I felt the exact opposite.
When I was a teen, Pink Floyd’s Welcome to the Machine was released. After the ubiquity of Dark Side of the Moon, I was impressed at the raw openness with which the band exposed the “machinations” and grist of the music industry. Ironically, PF released The Wall just a few years later and further explored the topic from a psychological impact on the artist’s perspective. Your video is an excellent synopsis of the same topics for modern audiences. Outstanding.
Lol cringe
@@NoName-fo7mz hehe
I think bands should be allowed one miserable album or to make miserable music till they make it but when they still make professionally miserable music like Pink Floyd and Radiohead they should be forced to stop by law
@@coronabong6664 hehe lofl
@@coronabong6664 lol
RIP Taylor Hawkins. The mental health aspects of touring are a very important thing that so often goes unaddressed. Thank you for shining some light on this.
DAVE wouldn't let him off the tour. Taylor said he couldn't do it. DAVE said F.U. , get behind your kit. Now the Crocodile Tears tour and raking in the sympathy cash. DISPICABLE DAVE.
Yah. You should tell us about what exactly led up to Taylors death. That is pretty important to your trite comment.
@@Onemore59 Charity is raking in cash. Why do you think he was taking the pain meds he was taking? An enlarged heart for a few years, and a high altitude in Colombia that required his heart to work harder. A bad recipe. Dave wouldn’t let him? Pat walked away.
@@Onemore59 yeah you’re looking for someone to blame rather than accept he both wanted to keep going at that level and couldn’t keep up at the same time. Dave’s alive so of course he’s the one to blame rather than accept he’s also struggling to keep going and that he was just as close to succumbing to a similar fate. Get a freaking clue!🙄
DAVE WOULDN'T LET TAYLOR OFF THE TOUR
When I was between the ages 16-22 I was in a band that eventually was scouted by Columbia Records (early 2000's). We were taken out and treated like stars for a brief moment in time. We waned to be road dogs, and we were at the age where we could be, but we only managed to do two month long tours around the US. Eventually they decided that they'd have someone write music for us, because our songs just werent good enough. When we heard that we pulled away and just broke up soon after that. Just seeing the kind of money thrown around with performers that I'd never heard of (and havent seen since) was wild. I'm so glad, now, that we didn't continue in that direction as I feel like I would have gone the same direction as Kurt if I'd gotten even a smidgen of his fame. Mental health is so much more important the "success". Now music is a hobby, and I've become all those people I thought had given up as a kid, but I'm so much happier than I'd have been had I stuck with that band.
Out of curiosity, what band were you in?
🎯👍 Kudos for finding your own road. 🙏 I found being in a couple bands fronted by narcissists (1 capable, 1 not so much..) that because of my comp skills/repertoire exposure, "fill-in" subbing satisfied my "performance jones" and the bulk of my time is writing and recording for an audience of 1... Much, much happier now... Good for you!
Great talk Mary.
So many overlook the dark side and pressures of fame....it all must be balanced...can't wait to see you in concert one day..😇
@@andrewmanara5289 I would like to know too :)
@@patrickjordan2233 Maybe the trick for any artist is to create/perform for an “audience of 1” and just see if results resonate with others. I think Ms Eilish has figured that out, although it may be an audience of 2 with her brother because of their artistic connection.
“Life on the road isn’t for everyone” i think the drummer for The Grateful Dead said that in his book. I had friends in a couple of nationally famous bands back in the early 60’s and wanted to follow them so bad and low and behold i got the chance, major label contract, records and all that. Didn’t happen for me and the band. For years i kept at it, still dreaming and then in my forties i chucked the day job and hit the road playing professionally. Lasted 5 years. It wasn’t me. My dream bit me in the ass because i was’t in tune with myself. I wan’t a road warrior and i wasn’t a very competent writer. So i left the road, left the club scene and went back to the place where i started long ago in ‘61. Just a guitar, some audio toys, a recorder just for giggles. Many of my friends are burnt out, club rats or dead. I have four cats. Life is good.
Sure you didn't.
@@sonicimperium idk, looking thru the dude's channel (I see playlists with rockabilly and gardening vids), part of me think it might be legit tho
Life is good indeed my brother. You have to always stay true to yourself. Peace.
I'm not in a band but that applies to every job where you have to travel. I started a new job a few years ago where i had to travel a lot. I thought it will be absolutely awesome. 4 years later I couldn't cope with it anymore and had to quit. Most people think traveling all the time is great but for most or at least many people it's not the right thing. It can be exhausting both mentally and physically
Good for you John. I think we all had the dream. I ended up in a pub band and then another and another. I chucked the job too. Still doing it 40 years later. I never made the big time but as I take stock and think about it I think I did ok. Playing 5/6 times a week for the last 25 years and I still love it. My job took me to a beautiful island where I now live and play for holiday makers. First time I heard the Beatles at 15 I wanted to do what they did. I am not a big time musician but I am a full time one. Life is indeed good.
The "being scared of losing it once you've made it" definitely resonated.
Mary,
This is just so well said and done. I am a musician. There are so many individuals who want this career. Pretty close to no one shares the information like you did in this video. This video and more need to be done to explain why most don't make no matter their talent and why there's so much death. Well done 👏 Mary.
Yes so well said
Both Krist Novoselic and Kim Thyil mentioned the dark side of fame in their recent video with Rick Beato. Also, Krist revealed that Kurt was far more ambitious than he acted like and that Krist would often catch Kurt in this hypocrisy.
The musing of a has been that went along for the ride? 😑
@@dnyce6278 really? Dave Grohl, Steve Albini and their manager at Gold Mountain along with Kurt’s guitar tech and Scott Litt (mixed Nirvana records) said the same.
@@dnyce6278 Has been. Better than a never was who never did nothin ever.
I do not know any ambitious people that killed themselves. I personally know many people that did commit suicide. None were ambitious. Kurt was murdered.
@john Christopher why would you assume that I ever wanted to be a rockstar? There are plenty of other ways to be successful in life, ways that lead to a sustained career.
This speaks directly to me. I’m 42 and have worked as a professional musician most of my adult life. I tried taking my own life twice in 2020 but just after the second attempt found some inner strength somehow. I’ve had to completely reevaluate my life and I’m extremely fortunate to have come out the other side, and in a strong position now. I’m grateful for the support I received regarding my mental health but there’s still a way to go in my opinion. Hopefully there will be more awareness and support moving forward for musicians (and anyone for that matter) suffering with their mental health. No one in any profession deserves to experience this so I am fully committed to giving back now by supporting and helping those in need. Peace, love and respect ✌🏻
Thank you so much for sharing that. Really powerful, and a testament to something that often flies in the face of cultural expectations, and much needed not only for musicians (though it's far too common for us, and other artists.... probably because much of our work is about seeing the world as it is which is sometimes horrifying, and as it could be, which is sometimes depressing AND also ideally hopeful, but it's also so frequently a thankless task...we all NEED art, but don't value artists of every level enough), but everybody, every human in general needs to hear: it's OK to be vulnerable. In fact, it's VITAL to be a REAL person, and understanding and help should always be forthcoming for those in need, and those in need should ALWAYS feel OK seeking it. I'm very happy you have created some positive movement for yourself, and my thoughts are with you. You are one of the beacons needed right now, and I wish and hope all the best not only for you, but those you may help as well. PLUR to you my friend.
And I've just started listening to some of your work...Zenith Glow- "In Your Wake"?! LOVE it!! Amazing chordal tonality, great tone in general, SOLID chops, awesome harmonies, and I really, really dig the lyrics and how you sing them (I noticed hints of this classic vocal quality and little vocal things that might go unnoticed by the general public, but that I've heard in lots of great New Wave and other Britrock stuff, like Robert Smith, Morrisey, Dave Gahan, Simon Le Bon, Damon Albarn and many others, but you kept it very original and made it your own sound...then I realized you actually are from the UK!)...just solid writing and performing. Also listened to your cover of "Cherub Rock"...badass! In other words, you got SKILLS my friend! Subscribed for SURE!! And can't wait to listen to the rest, especially the rest of your originals and that cover of "Mayonnaise" (another of my favorite tunes) and all the rest for that matter! The world is far better off with you in it! 😃
What was the name or your band(s) ? Oh ok... Nevermind...
@@thomasdupont7186 Zenith Glow
@@alexmackenziemusic1323 yes I saw that, went to your page.
This blew my mind... I really did not realize the huge amount of both physical and mental pressure that professional artists have to bear. Thank you so much. This video needs to be spread 🙏
Ditto
Yes this made it so real
Not to mention the vast majority of bands/musicians touring are broke. They come home after tour, barely any money earned and they go back to working full time jobs until they save enough money to go on tour again. So the endure all that, yet to gain nothing but debt can add to the mental pressure.
I don't know why or how the RUclips gods were working today but I have only just found your channel and I am going on a serious deep dive of your videos Mary! Absolutely loving your work and nodding to 100% of the words!! I am also a full-time vehemently passionate independent musician and am sponging what you are spilling over here on the channel - it's lovely to hear of another (especially British female) musician being successful and KILLING it with the content, music and business! 🙋♀❤ 🎶
Mary , I am almost 68 and I started my little record label in 1983 with me on it . No compromise . Small tours . Sanity . Musicians must figure away around the industry .
I’ve worked in the record business; I represent artists (photographers) and everything you say here in spot on. Well written, well said and something every musician and artists should hear and understand. ✌🏻
Agree with you 1000 percent Norma !!!!
mazzy, love ya brother!
What a truly sad and disturbing video. I’ve been playing music most of my life. Played with a few bands, played a bunch of gigs, recorded some records, wrote hundreds of songs, but never once considered do this “as my job”. I have a lot a respect for those that do, but I know myself too well and it would have not ended well for me. Thanks for bringing this to light!
Great job presenting this topic! Thank you Mary!
Tour manager for 8 years with punk, indudtrial and metal. Have heard many wise words and honest admissions, but you nailed it on so many levels. Let me just say thank you.
Mary, thank you for talking about this. When you're burned out; Taking time for your personal well being is a necessity for everyone.
As a professional drummer, i really had to confront my ambition and disabilities. It was hard, i took a drums teaching job (ended up loving it)
And now i find myself able to be ambitious again. I started a RUclips channel and trying to balance everything.
So thank you for starting that conversation. I feel less alone 😊
Thank you for speaking on this, you are absolutely necessary. The best way I've been able to cope with the depression of being away from home, friends, and family for so long is to understand that every gig I get is a blessing, and every person in the audience is there for a reason. It's not about you, it's for them. Real humility goes a long way. If you keep this in mind, I wouldn't necessarily say it gets easier, but it does gets more worthwhile. I cannot stress how important it is to love people. Make literally everyone around you seen and heard, whether they're the artist headlining a festival, the sound guy, or the janitor. The joy you get from peace with God and peace with all man in the midst of hardship, mental breakdown, crying before a set, is the only way to get through it in my experience. Life is beautiful, but it doesn't always seem that way. Let's be active reminders for the people around us and the artists that we support. It's now our turn to hold up the world of music, let's give it a great name, let's make it a great place to be.
I have watched literally hundreds of music related videos on YT over the last 5 years. This is far far the best. Having struggled with mental health, I am so grateful for the way you put this video together. Thank you so much.
I have also watches hundreds of music related videos on YT, and have never been disappointed by Mary Spender. For the first time I hit the subscribe button.
This is one of your best videos yet, Mary. Thank you for talking about this.
Even though I love creating music, it’s almost like a torture. We are a different breed, blessed and cursed at the same time but I wouldn’t have it any other way.. excellent post Mary
Wonderfully put. I would add that in my experience as a performing musician as both a session player and artist for the last 20 years. What I have found to be the key, is constantly defining and being open to redefining what “making it” is to you. Being open to letting that vision mature along with yourself is EVERYTHING for your mental health. It’s no different then a small child saying he/she wants to be an astronaut when he/she grows up and later realizes what that really means is he/she enjoys writing space fiction stories for children’s books or teaching astronomy to a high school class.
Unfortunately so many musicians are allowed to become astronauts before they have time to mature into being school teachers because the industry see’s dollar signs on the young artists naivety.
As someone who works "on the other side of the glass" so to speak, I see sides of artists that aren't normally out there with everyone else, unless they have their entourage in the studio with them, you learn things about the artist that they wouldn't even divulge to their closest homeboy. Making and creating music is a very personal thing and part of the problem isn't just touring, it's the whole "manufacturing" of music. It's a grotesque machine that's just made to pump out music for the sake of money and fame rather than promoting artistry. The whole "The hip new thing" coming out every day with artists, singers, and bands is damaging to the art and the creation of it. So many dictators in the process of the creation of said art it loses its artistic value a lot of the time. But yea, when it comes to being on the side of the glass where the music is made and recorded and the faceless artist behind the board, you hear and see things that the world will NEVER hear or see... All the tears, all the joy, all the sadness, depression, and loneliness that come along with it all, the laughter, the happiness, the everything in between. The music industry is a very dark path no matter which side of the glass you work on. A lot of it is sad, but more than quite a bit of it can bring joy and happiness to people who were either thinking about ending their lives or were about to attempt it 5 minutes before hearing that song. Music is very powerful, very dangerous, and if in the wrong hands can be deadly. No matter where you are or what you're doing in the industry. So as I say to any client that comes through my studio that's in it for the fame and glory, I always advise to tread carefully, this industry will take you in, grind you up, and spit you back out as an empty husk after it consumes your soul to its very core.
Well said. I have been a drummer for 45 years - and have chosen to teach (my full time passion for 32 years). The biggest reason for my decision to not "be in a band and tour" echoes many of the points you brought up in this video. After playing in bands, late nights, little sleep, not eating well, etc (for almost 2 decades) - I found the more stable idea of controllable hours to be not only appealing, but absolutely necessary for me to live a healthier life. Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience...much appreciation. Happy drumming... :). "Mr Ed" Round Rock Drums
Justifying never becoming famous?
You are a great writer, presenter, producer AND singer/songwriter. You have so much to fall back on; remember that. I really like how you explain things. You make my life richer. Thank you. But also know that if you ever stop making videos because that endeavor wasn't serving you well, I will be happy for you; I won't in any way feel you let me down.
The music industry still hasn’t away from being like the hardware store during the gold rush. The gold searchers payed too much for shovels in advance and were cheated when they wanted to sell the little gold they found. The music industry still has that rip off mentality.
Hell hath no fury like the jealousy of a suit wearing Executive.
Spot on!
That's just capitalism.
@@gabe_s_videos Not really - I can’t think of too many startups (which is ultimately what young artists are) who would would accept terms where they would give away sole rights to their IP, and 85% of their turnover to their investors when looking to raise the capital to scale their business. Further to that, they also have to pay back any investment made (aka advances) out of the remaining 15% of turnover, not the 85% already taken by the investors? The hardware store during the gold rush is a pretty apt analogy.
I love this, never heard a better explanation of the reality of the music industry. Superb work Mary. I know we all want to be a rock star but perhaps its not all its cracked up to be.
This! This video is everything what Im trying to explain to people when they ask me why I never really went on going as the drummer of a famous singer.
Creative people are often driven, passionate, self-critical, oversensitive, highly self-aware, people pleasers. Often they have ADHD making them hyper focused, hard-working and prone to exhaustion mentally and physically. They are also deficient in certain hormones, and addiction is often a result of dopamine deficiency. I think the word "ambition" overshadows these core personality traits that are so prevalent not just in ambitious musicians but creative people in all areas of life. Ambition, you could argue, could be replaced for "fanatical / dedicated / focused" (I remember seeing once a statement "Obsessed is what lazy people call the dedicated" - I like that one). The answer I feel has to come from within. Some people are able to recognize the changes that need to be made and some are unable to. Some dont want to - in fear of becoming something they cannot recognize or live with. This entire piece is really about the psychology of the creative personality so its interesting to see your take on it and yes - I see it in you of course.
This is such an eye-opening video. I love playing music and songwriting, but I'm glad I found a new path where I can still make music on my spare time and not feeling overwhelmed by it.
You’re doing something new, I feel. I appreciate this type of video essay, commentary; whatever you want to call it. This is good. You’re calm, relatable, sympathetic, and genuine.
Definitely do this for as long as you wish, but never longer than you want.
Thank you, Mary. I am a musician and a mental health counselor. My own daughter attempted suicide in 2019 at the age of 15 due to a combination of the affects from being sexually assaulted at 13 by neighborhood boys, and the influences of so called friends on social media. By only the grace of God, she survived and is a proponent of suicide prevention now at 18. More people need to speak up. I am constantly reminded of the massive weight of anxiety and depression in our world population right now. Suicide numbers are at an all time high. The overwhelming hopelessness felt by adolescents and young adults is a heavy weight that feels unbearable. There are solutions. This is senseless death that is preventable. Thank you for being part of the solution. Just one more reason I am a fan.
Well done helping her stay afloat.
I wouldn't want to be young at this time in human history. It's so crazy.
Best wishes to you and yours!
@Jonathan Orris I am so glad she is still here with you, and kudos for your ability to see the causes honestly and supporting her through it all.
May you and your daughter be the change your community needs, and may you both receive all the support you need.
Thank you so much for this and other blogs that address the reality of being a musician/ artist! Intelligent & thought provoking conversation.
I admire your diligence and independence, I’m a 67yo retiree. In my youth i wanted to be a pro musician ( Bass). It never happened, life changed, but i still love listening to good music, especially, prog rock & Jazz ( Lee Ritenour, Fourplay etc)
Your vlogs on these subjects are GOLDEN & should be mandatory watching & listening too by any aspiring musician to equip them for what is to come. Despite it all, music is still food for the sole ❤️👏🏻❤️
i've always thought (and been told) that music is my thing. i've always played in bands, i went to audio engineering school and wanted to make it my career. two years ago, after a very long struggle with trying to find my place in the music industry i decided to scrap it and pursued a career in software development. now that i'm seeing the friends i've always played with start catching some momentum and move to the next level career wise, all i can think of when i see the stress they're put through is "thank god i'm out of this"
As a "retired" gigging musician, I quit playing in bands and just jam at home and have fun. The grind of playing in multiple bands at once turned my into a drug addict. My back was destroyed from constantly moving my drums. But I didn't quit. My bands just kind of fizzled out. And I was grateful.
Ok. I don't know why, but I read your comment in Joe Walsh's speaking voice and it was awesome!
You could’ve just had other people move stuff for you. But I do think jamming at home is the best. Too bad I’m homeless and all my equipment is in a storage unit
This is a very smart woman. I wish you would talk about what she thinks is going to happen to the music industry in five years 10 years or even 20 years. There of been people that have suggested that we really don’t need giant labels anymore. At least not labels like Sony union in Warner Music Group they have 5000 people plus. But here’s the big question the $64,000 question. Do they write the songs. In most cases know. Do they perform the songs. In most cases no. Do they produce the songs. In most cases no. And here’s the last really important question did they find an audience for the song? Well most people would say yes but the answer is really no ! All they do is go to radio stations at least in the past and now streaming sites presently and say will you expose my artist will you popularize my artist? The fact is is that they don’t make the music and they don’t find an audience for the music there’s a reason why too and people like George Howard a Berklee school of music one of the most admired musical professors at one of the most prestigious musical schools has explained why. There’s far too many things to go into here but I wanted to say that this woman Dash Mary spender is a very bright lady. She talks a lot about the ups and downs of the music industry but the fact is that the music industry has no chance of growing or flourishing at least for musicians and created people unless musicians form a union Which day of thus far for reasons no one knows form a union and insist that they get treated fairly in a transparent industry. There is no transparency in this current music industry and no fairness
do you think if musicians were paid better, less of us would encounter these problems? it seems like the stress of overworking is what leads to so many addictions
Better to end up grateful than dead. But I guess those aren't mutually exclusive, as evidenced by the Grateful Dead.
I've lost three former bandmates to suicide, and have been helping another away from taking his own life. Thank you for tackling this vital issue.
Sure you did.
@@sonicimperium I lost my close friend/lead singer and guitarist on may 14th right before we started practicing again. he had just turned 20. these things can be very real
@@TheFourHorseman888 Lay off the dope.
@@sonicimperium How do you know? You don't know this person, depression and suicide is a serious issue,
Please don't make light of it... And be a human..
@@ned1621 Nah, it's just another reflection of how weak and controlled people have gotten. Stop watching tv and feeling sorry for yourself.
My father and grandfather were musicians and it was my father’s dream that my brothers and I would follow in his footsteps and join the band. That did not happen and it bothered him some, particularly when my younger brothers got into drugs and dropped out from school. I joined the US Navy and afterwards went to technical college. He lumped me into the same bucket as my brothers. Gratefully, he was not suicidal, particularly after divorce.
The problem with being an artist, be it a musician or painter/sculptor, is that in order to be fulfilled you need acceptance and adoration. If you’re not widely accepted, it is a huge blow to one’s self-worth. It is not for the faint of heart. And once you achieve success, it may be short lived. That is a tightrope existence.
Mary, thank you for taking on this difficult subject and the other ones you have covered regarding earning a living. You are doing other artists & the general public a favor by showing the seedier side of the business. I for one am more appreciative of your lives. I hope you have success in your art & chosen profession. I enjoy your vlogs.
Ive been an amateur singer/songwriter for over 25 years, I had great times but faced the dark side of it as well. You explained spot on how hard and all consuming the music industry is, I wish you all the best.
I really don't know what to say. In my view with this you've gone from a massively interesting musician with insightful experiences to an empathetic and relatable voice that hits home on important topics. This hits close to home for me and I really appreciate the hours and hours of time you took to prepare this and present it so compellingly. Thank you very much.
Agree fully. It hits home.
Very well said and I agree 100%
Considering how hard life has been over the years, I count myself lucky that I didn't get tied up in the industry.
I love music but looking back and knowing what I know about it now... I would never have survived.
Thanks for all the really great content.
This video meant a great deal to me. As a musician in this day and age, I battle consistently with ambition. Ambition to be a professional guitar hero, to teach, to tour, to show all my nay sayer’s that they were wrong. But thirst such as this kills me slowly, I’ve found. The more I want to accomplish, the less I can write. I have to kind of open up the “professional pressure cooker” to get things done.
I also battle with a multitude of physical and mental disabilities that hold me back from my dreams, at least to a point. And I have questioned whether or not I should go on from time to time. The balance I’ve found is playing live recordings on RUclips and playing a little live music locally. Busking helps me as well. And I play guitar daily. I can be my own personal guitar hero.
Your videos just get better and better Mary. It speaks of your generous heart that you are willing to do so much to help others!
Keep in mind that she too was working for herself $$$, like record companies promoters agents and so on.
@@franka2743 Typical negative reply of someone who would never do anything for free. She is earning from RUclips now but ever thought about all the videos she did before she built up a following - through hard, unpaid work? and this information is still free for you when many in the industry would charge for it. What is you contribution?
That was an exceptional intelligent, serious and open statement about the unseen costs of the music business. Makes you an even nicer person and musician in my mind 🙂
I had a recording studio in the 90s and a band named Rein Santion came in. They had just been dropped from Subpop records ( same time as Nirvana). They had pised away all the money the record company gave them and Subpop dropped em.. They were awesome but a wreck. Now they're still going but on a Street corner in Nashvillle. I definitely would have died if I was a rockstar. Thank God I'm just a normal dude still having fun playing at 61.
@@levicashrocker you realize Kurt was murdered, right?
🤢😳🤣
@@starwarssatan5588 of course..i was just commenting on the horrible lifestyle it requires to do that night after night.
A great video. Kurt's death shook me deeply. I was 14 and rock stars have never been the same to me since. I was/am friends with a band that was on a major label and on the edge of almost crossing into actual fame and it was nothing like people fantasized about (positively or negatively). A band that went on tour with one of the biggest bands in the world at the time, and was eating Hot Pockets for breakfast because that's all there was money for. The label threw them away like trash and still made it nearly impossible for them to continue (which they thankfully have managed to do in a capacity). Having seen that and experienced some fraction of "micro fame" makes me a lot happier to just be able to live off of my art and aspire to no more than maybe just living fairly above average. I aspire to more, but understand what "more" can mean, so I approach with caution. For musicians, this is why I like the idea of circumventing the traditional music industry entirely. The "Suits" are often useless and wasteful. Back to my friends, in your case, you are very wise to be blazing your own path. I hope you continue to have success and avoid those industry scum that talk big and deliver in the complete opposite direction.
Marillion are a great example. In the 80s, they had chart success. Played stadiums, and all over the world. Didn't make much money, but they were noticed. It led directly to a fractious breakup with their lead singer at the time, over precisely the album/tour/album/tour merry go round the suits put you on. They replaced him & carried on, but after two more albums they were dropped by their record label EMI.
So they formed their own record label. Self published. Asked their loyal fans to preorder albums before they were made, and fund tours. They are credited with 'inventing' crowd-funding as a concept.
Now, after 19 albums, and regular sell-out tours and 'weekends', they are comfortably off. Radio doesn't play them. They get no mainstream attention or exposure at all, that you would get with a record label, but it doesn't matter. They can take three years to craft an album, and it's fine. They're not loaded, but not skint either. All financed by a small but loyal worldwide fanbase.
They call it "a better way of life" and it's hard to argue with that.
Thanks for posting this, it was helpful to not feel alone with these challenges as an independent artist.
Thank you for doing this video, Mary. I toured in my teens and early 20's. Now, I'm 40 and back into full time music and performing. I've always struggled with most of what you mentioned here (contemplating suicide, driven to outdo myself, but then collapsing under the pressure). It's a strange balance and I'm only now starting to understand it. Thanks again.
Johnny made a record, Went straight up to number one,
Suddenly everyone loved to hear him sing the song.
Watching the world go by, surprising it goes so fast.
Johnny looked around him and said, 'Well, I made the big time at last'.
Don't you know, don't you know, Don't you know that you are
a shooting star,
Don't you know, oh, yeah, Don't you know that you are
a shooting star, yeah,
And all the world will love you just as long,
As long as you are, a shooting star.
Bad Company, Shooting Star.
For me, this sums it all up. We all know fame and fortune can be a heavy thing, but honestly, we all think that just happens, "to that other guy. I can handle this."
Well, to that other guy, YOU are the other guy.
Thank you for doing this upload, Mary.
Thank you for doing this. Often times being a “musician” isn’t a choice-we are compelled. Only musicians know this. So, as a musician trying to make a living, we have to say “yes” to just about anything which leads to awful situations.
Yeah, like 'yes' to taking an experimental gene therapy injection because your lead singer forces you to
Smart! Good research! Condensing lots of information with valued inferences. I am grateful for this
No you don't have to take every single opportunity.
You don't have to always say yes. Read my reply further up. ^
Thank you for this! As a full time professional musician one of the HARDEST aspects of it is that so much of the public simply doesn’t want to hear how goddamn hard it is. Physically, mentally, emotionally and financially. It’s brutal in so many ways but if you talk about it on Twitter a lot of normal folks are going to think you are ungrateful for how lucky you are to get to be a working musician. And yes, I’m lucky I get to make music professionally, and very grateful. But I’ve also suffered terribly to stay doing it like so many musicians have and do. Thank you for raising awareness of the COST of it all 🙏🙏🙏
I'm an artist/ illustrator and we face similar problems...if we slack off once or show signs of " I'm bored ' a company/ art house will fire you in a split of a second, and replace you with another artist who is hungry.
It sucks it does. Everyone thinks it's great I get to work at home and draw/ paint book covers or logos even comicbook covers. ..but it's not great all the time. Most of the time it bloody sucks.
I hate it sometimes because it's a business now, it's not a hobby. The money I make is great but it's not stable. I'm on food stamps at the moment....let that sink in.
So I understand how musicians feel....it's a tough life. 🙏🏻
Mary, thank you SO much for this video and for sharing what I and so many other musicians/vocalists battle daily. Our lives can be very difficult, from the stifled creativity due to working a "real" job to the isolation we feel by being the only creative in our family or circle of friends. I am not ashamed at all to admit that you had me in tears the entire time. I play four instruments and have a 5 octave vocal range. Yet I drive 2 hours one way to work a normal job every day just to support my family. It is a constant mental health struggle and it is SO comforting hearing at least ONE person who understands. Again I say thank you ❤️
Mary, thank you so much for this. I used to tour, trying to make it in various punk and alternative bands and I ended up walking away from music for close to 8 years. That was a mistake. But it just goes to show what even TRYING to make it in this industry does to someone's passion and joy in life.
I don't know how I arrived here, but this is a very relevant video. Thank you for doing that. As a filmmaker, I shot a lot of music videos, not with a big budget, but independent videos with independent musicians. Also, I directed some rockumentaries. One of them, "La inercia de la costumbre" with the Spanish folk singer Manolo Tarancon, we discussed this, the pressure of recording an indie album, the touring, and the recognition. Reality has changed a lot since then, but the topics remain. You can find the documentary on youtube. Thanks again, Mary.
After 27 years of touring as an artist/engineer/stage manager, I sold my company in 2018 to concentrate on recording and playing small solo covers shows and small originals gigs with my band. I can’t tell you how much happier it’s made me!
Stress and pressure will kill you. It’s that simple.
I agree with you totally with your method of music. Small solo cover shows small original gigs, throw in youtube and your making a living without the leeches affecting your life. Stay in total control of your business and have a life to boot.
Great video, Mary. To break the destructive cycle, more discussion needs to happen about the rights of musicians. The "business" part of music is made for the benefit of everyone in the business but the artist. If you're FORCED to tour and subject yourself to the pain of being on the road just to make ends meet, there's a root cause.
Never before have I heard someone put it so precisely and so perfectly. You have hit the nail on the head in so many ways! As young musicians we all get caught up in the rockstar thing. And to quote Taylor himself, I’m not a rockstar... I’m a musician. Thank you for making this video! I will be sharing it with a few younger musicians I know and (hopefully) waking them up before they too make the mistakes that I made many years ago. Cheers Mary! Keep up the good work!
I used to say that "music can be a harsh mistress". Mary corrects that statement pointing to ambition and not music that is the harsh mistress. I completely agree after watching this.
It is the same for gigging musicians who play live for a living. 3 sets of 45 will take its toll on you sooner or later.
Thanks for shedding a light on that!
Thank you for talking about this, Mary; issues like this are often swept under the rug and either discounted or often belittled. All we can do is keep talking about it and raise awareness. Bravo, well done. 🙂
I certainly feel this. Even though I've never broken through when I was performing I play some decent shows with support slots up to 500 cap, but if you become disconnected from the music you're performing night after night can be so damaging to mental health. I watched a frontman of one of my bands deteriate over just a 10 date UK tour as he was in a different mindset from when he wrote their record and reliving trauma that went into the record broke him and it pains me to be see anyone in that position let alone friends.
Just look after yourselves and know what is best for you, even if it means stepping back for a bit
Very well done video. I’ve been blessed to make a living in music since 1989. I’ve been through everything discussed in this informative clip. Moved to Hollywood at 18, success at a young age, money, divorce, currently in divorce #2. Drugs, lots of drinking, girls I’ve been thrown out of a country on my first big tour (with the entire band/crew). Drug overdoses, some on purpose. Band mates and friends die.
One thing I’ve found as a constant that this video doesn’t mention is that every successful musician, and some of my acting friends have many issues stemming from multitudes of “X” factors usually at young age.
It’s like all the mental issues made me tap in to the fringes as a songwriter, deep inside my not so happy emotionally erratic mind at times.
We have this brotherhood and sisterhood of not fitting in with normal day to day life. Music gave me a family of others like me for better or worse. Music Is Life only thing I know that will always be there and never leave me until my last breath.
Peace to all, we all have our crosses to bear. 💟☮️💟
Thank you for this beautifully put together essay. The implications of this video reach so much wider than just music, but at the same time, encapsulate the industry’s issues quite well indeed.
What an intelligent, well crafted and empathic piece.
Brava.
It really is an excellent video. It made me think of one person in particular: Daniel Johns, formerly of Silverchair.
Daniel is one of my favorite humans ever. The album Diorama changed my life...it's a 10/10 perfect album. People who only know stuff from Frogstomp...are missing out in a BIG way. But....Daniel is still alive, somehow. He's dealt with _immense_ depression and anxiety and illness and addiction for 20 years now. I've often been worried I'd wake up to find out he'd killed himself or overdosed. He actually just posted, on his channel, the first interview he's done in ages....dealing directly with all this. It's super candid and honest and difficult to watch at times.
Daniel is a once in a generation talent....a musical creative genius.....and the industry of it all damn near killed him. And it still might. Thankfully he's stopped touring altogether and only works in the studio now. Thankfully he can afford to do that. But he's still got some pretty intense demons weighing on him....especially severe anxiety and addiction to drugs and alcohol.
I want the best for him. He's already changed my life with his music. But people like him have a level of ambition, including creative ambition, that is orders of magnitude beyond most people.
idk....I'm kinda ranting a bit now. This all just made me think of him in particular.
Because if I HAD to wager.....I honestly might bet that he won't be alive in 5 years. And that's a scary thought. Life is too hard sometimes....
On the totally other side of the coin...................another of my all time favorite artists is Aurora. She is a mesmerizing creative force. If you don't know her, stop everything and go watch her live concert at Nidarosdomen Cathedral. That concert legit changed my life. But Aurora, quite the opposite of Daniel Johns, has approached her fame and touring and the pressures of the industry with THE BEST mindset I've ever seen.
Her approach is honestly the healthiest way to go about being a touring artist today. Not everyone can pull off what she has....she's quite unlike most people, in a lot of ways.
But she's an excellent role model for people like us to aspire to.....
agreed! and very thought provoking!
a very well done report.
Agreed. We'll prepared and presented.
@@avedic Aurora is amazing. what a talent and she's always enjoying herself and doing creative things.
Thank You for this video, Mary! In my younger days I had a few whiffs of life on the road. Apart from its dangers it can be addicting, too. When You have made it through a stressful travelling day and a great night's show, You feel almost invincible for a little while. No idea, what fame feels like, though. But commercial failure isn't easy to handle either.
Now, there are traps everywhere in this business and it attracts vulnerable souls. Just ask Yourself: Who in their right mind would enjoy standing in front of a crowd of total strangers, pouring their heart out?
Hi - musician here too. I’m re-evaluating everything, tbh. For me, it’s like this: the music industry gives this, sometimes absolutely accurate, representation of itself that it can externally validate who has that “it” quality. It gives the external validation. The whole “getting discovered” thing. What I’ve found as a woman in this weird game built around music is that I had the ability to discover myself. After I really got this for myself, everything changed. The mental and physical tolls from constantly grinding myself into the floor of music studios, stages, basement shows, bars, social media, etc. really became clear. I finally noticed how unhealthy it was getting for me. I am still a musician and, yeah, tbh, super ambitious, but I don’t do 24/7 anymore. I work my a** off, yes, but I’m learning the balance and not hyper focusing anymore. It’s actually foreign and weird and fantastic. A bit scary, actually, but a really really good scary bc it’s a different way of life entirely. Take care of yourselves, my musician friends. 💗
Perfectly explained and said, this topic needed to be shared. It's alarming how many musicians take their own lives and die very young due to suicide or addictions. New musicians need to understand that success and the touring life are not for everyone and that same lifestyle can have a toll on ur health and leave u in a dark path.
I’ve spent much of my life - I’m 70 - hanging around the blues scene here in St. Louis, and spent a number of years writing interviews for the local papers. The people who seem to last the longest and can stay sane seem to be the ones who see the music as a craft that they practice, and keep it partitioned from their “real self,” whatever it is they do and think off stage. People like Doc Watson, Leo Kottke, Jerry Jeff Walker, Chris Smither, Bugs Henderson, John Hammond - the musicians’ musicians - are some of the finest people I ever met. But from what I’ve seen when a person bases his “sense of identity” with what self-validation he gets from “stardom” he’s headed for a death match with reality.
So maybe the question one should ask oneself is “Am I good enough to earn respect from the musicians I respect?”
exactly, when you're yearning for the recognition of a big audience, but underneath that, you actually need something else (more real/tangible), but you don't see or feel that anymore, 'cause you're only focused on the fame..
It's much much easier than that. Does the musician do heroin? It's about a 1/1 ratio of suicides being heroin addicts.
@@suburbanindie why do you think they turn to heroin? It’s not simple at all.
I lived near St. Louis for eight years and well acquainted with the blues scene having experienced it. It's very rich. Almost proprietary in its own way. The musicians there just like doing what they do and as long as they can keep it going all the better. Life is full of tragedies no matter what level of recognition comes your way. The only thing that matters is if you get knocked down to have the knowledge that it's not the end of the world. Once you accept that concept it's easier to get back up.
A very talented musician and songwriter...and also an articulate and smart young lady...and now add to that ....a journalist taking on a difficult subject with tact and poise.
As a young aspiring musician/artist this video has served as a strong warning to be careful what you wish for! But also to really think about the kind creative I want to be! Thank you Mary for sharing this insightful and thought provking video :)) l
Be strong Mary, we are with you whether you are on the road or not. Take care of yourself first. Hugs.
“They kick me out of the band
and I just don’t understand
Just when things were going so grand
They kicked me out of the band “
A line from a Commander Cody song . Great fun song . Personally it really happened to me and is probably why I’m still alive. The drug culture around music is seductive and deadly I wouldn’t have survived.
Hahaha, I don't believe it
Da, da, ah, ah don't touch me
Hey ray, hey sugar, tell them who we are
Well, we're big rock singers
We got golden fingers
And we're loved everywhere we go ("That sounds like us")
We sing about beauty and we sing about truth
At ten thousand dollars a show (right)
We take all kinds of pills that give us all kind of thrills
But the thrill we've never known
Is the thrill that'll getcha when you get your picture
On the cover of the Rollin' Stone
Check out Bill Spooner's version(former member of the Tubes) on Mall to Mars album
Commander Cody ref for the win!!!
Thank you Mary for this wonderful content!
As a musician who had these dark urges and attempts you mentioned, this video completely changed my outlook on everything. I was abandoned randomly by an industry level company and ever since then ive been trying to climb my way back up. Randomly i decided to delete most of my social media and to just stick with youtube. Tik tok had bred a toxicity and competitiveness in me i couldnt shake until deleting it. Friends and family have judged me for ditching my following and socials, but im hoping to start a new musical life. From the comfort of my home, from youtube a platform ive loved since a child. Im hoping this caters to my health and wellbeing far better. I wish any other musicians out there good luck on their journey
This is amazing. I think it relates to anyone pursuing a career in the arts, music or otherwise... the insecurities, feeling like the bottom can drop out anytime, always someone behind your back wanting what you have, might have or think you have, people and sometimes "friends" trying to use you... As a musician and photographer of more than 20 years I've experienced all that, on a much smaller level, but it's always present. Know thyself, stand your ground, buckle up!
Mary, This is a brilliant exposition of the hazards of “making it” in the music industry. I’ve often wondered how musicians manage the multiple demands of fans, producers and others. Thanks for shedding a light on this dark side.
Thank you for shining a light on the unglorious aspect of musical fame. When I was young I dreamed of being like my favorite artists and being famous.They made it look fun and seemed to live a "perfect" life. As I've grown older and read time and again of the struggles, insecurities, and the abuses of the industry itself that artists have endured, I thank my lucky stars that I never entered that arena. I would not have the emotional and physical stamina to endure what many of them have gone through. I am glad to see many artists these days taking control of their own destiny and doing things through social media and other distribution sources that allow them to reap the monetary compensation. We don't need to make our favorite musicians into heroes. We only need to enjoy their works and show them our appreciation. By making artists "larger than life" we burden them with having to live an inhuman and inhimane life. I wish more people would talk about this and less time spent on looking at people as idols. Musicians are talented and often extraordinarily hard working people. The can bring us joy and enlightenment, but they deserve to be seen as the people that they are and not as idols that must be raised to a pantheon that become a cage of misery for them.
Mary. That was brilliant and so well articulated. When I was younger none of this support advice knowledge was shared.. it was real cloak and dagger stuff. Even as a Songwriter in my 50s.. its wonderful to know that your so open sharing your guidance and education on this subject .
I'm a Songwriter with a day job.. and I throw up a release on RUclips/ Spotify when I can. Views are lovely. But the important part is the joy I get playing with other musicians . It has become a love thing for me now. When I was younger it was what I really wanted to do and make it big. The blessing is.. had that happened.. I too would be on the dead list also. I wasn't emotionally strong.. nor intelligent enough to out witt the giant machine. I'm happy that the playing field is finding its balance. Thank you. "Keep on keeping on" 🥰🐦
One thing that is severely overlooked in here is the life surrounding music is perpetuating us into lives of addiction and feeling inadequate when all we do is get taken advantage of. People in the music scene got me on hard drugs, and once I switched to heroin, they all of a sudden pulled the rug out as if they didn't give it to me. They only care about us when they're making money off us, when we're fucked up, when we're that emotional wreck on stage who just gives every ounce of their pain into the music, but once they can't get that, they don't care.
As always, very clear, direct, and important. As a newcomer musician, it has been remarkable to see how difficult it is to get started and get going live, and the array of people needed to make that happen. I'm still doing it mostly alone, but hearing you talk about this resonates so much. Thank you, and we all need to support our local indie artists and their releases and live shows!
This was exceptionally well done and contributes powerfully to the conversation. It also serves as a good reminder that music is about a lot more than likes, views, popularity, or even fame. Given the fragility of most creatives (and I include myself among the fragile), we need to be reminded that we are all more than the measure of our success.
Play music for its own sake, because you love it. Like Josh Homme once said, "if you expect anything of music, then you expect too much."
God bless you, Mary Spender. You are a beautiful soul. And I think you Get It. A street musician in my neighborhood named Gary shared with me once that the Lord put all of the Notes we would ever play inside of each of US. For our Healing. That may sound weird to some people, but regardless. Ambition used well is a tool. I like that. My friend and producer Tom used to say that Everything in Life can be used as either a Tool, a Crutch or an Addiction depending on what you do with it. Music is my Anti-drug. Or as Tina Bailey always says, Music is Life. Much Love and Respect Mary Spender.
Mary you are a breath of fresh air and make no mistake you are a growing voice changing the way people see music and the industry! Good on you girl!
Yes indeed
And by the way where did this stupid phrase “good on you” come from.? England?
Sounds like you’re jackin’ it with yer buds In a bukake session…
The phrase is ‘good for you’, you’re not dumping good all over somebody you don’t dump a bag of good all over someone. It’s not a commodity FFS
@@warrenbutterfield4208 lol different folks got different ways of talking over here sir
This 11 min video gave me a heap of negative flashbacks from past touring days that I’d likely forgotten about due to now having a more happy and grounded way of life. Ambition is definitely a double edged sword. Find the balance! Fantastic video Mary, keep it up!
It's super nice if you can find that life partner and start the settled in lifestyle. I mean really thats what we get into music for in the first place right? To be recognized so that we can do what? Meet somebody we want to F**K and hopefully marry them and then leave all this touring shit behind lol. Then there's people like me hopelessly single and doomed to die on the road.
Thank you Mary, this was such a needed intelligent insight into the music industry. Being nearly 50 myself and only just started learning to play the guitar (2years in), even I feel the tugs on my heart strings of ambition.
What an amazingly thorough video. I am a royalty manager at a well established business management firm, but have always aspired to be the songwriter/artist/performing on tour. Unfortunately, the realities I saw and experienced in the music business have always detoured me from fully immersing myself and jumping head first into the abyss. I love performing music for an audience more than anything, but the manipulation within the industry and the constant competition is extremely challenging and grueling. I am always looking for better ways to create community, thank you for sharing this video with us.
Hey, tremendously well researched and well spoken video! I used to be in a folk band that toured around Canada. It was sad and kind of hard to let go of but, as a result, I have been able to be there with my family as they grow up. I now play live regularly on the local, regional circuit and make my primary living as a teacher. I find that as long as I play meaningful gigs that are received relatively well by people that I care to be around, often that is enough.
As deeply thoughtful as well-spoken
Ms. Spender would easily outperform most politicians. The clarity and seriousness of this video are amazing.
It could be interesting to see her talking to Imogen Heap, who had started some interesting new ways for doing music business beyond big corporations taking most of the pie. Dont know about the progress of it..
Great talk. As a musician who tried from the 70's through the 90's, finally admitting it wasn't going to happen was hard, but at the same time, it was a relief. You brought up excellant points about all the pitfalls, and what to watch out for.
Thank you for this. This is a very important topic that I don't talk about. We so quickly idolize our hero's, instead of looking at them as a human being which cause an inhuman expectation for both them and us. Thank you so much.
Ambition should be looked at and respected like any dangerous machine, like a car or a gun. With careful use, it benefits and empowers, with careless use it will destroy you and perhaps others in your wake. Mary, this is great advice for ALL people let alone musicians...
When my band, my job were at their peak, I felt possessed. My relationship with my now 15 year wife suffered to the point of almost ending, my friends stopped talking to me. Family gatherings were far and few between, I was always too exhausted to even enjoy it. I now work with my wife, we have our own business. I make enough, but I am happy. Even tho I have no band anymore, and I have fond memories. My journey taught me ambition and goals should be set to satisfy all things in your life. If there is no balance, then your success and money is all an illusion. Some people don't find this out till much later. I feel lucky to have figured this out while I was younger
Exact same story here. I used to play 3 gigs per weekend as a dj. Played pretty big venues and clubs. Even had a show on national radio. But I was always tired during the day. And my relationships started suffering. When you play a lot it really puts you in a weird state of isolation. Also the people you meet in the night are either drunk, drugged or just plain weird.
So happy I realised this soon enough.
Yeah, it's only the lonely musician who can understand what it is like to have a job that takes up most of their time and keeps them away from their family. Such a unique place to be as a person.