Another Warranty claim from SAME CUSTOMER, but are we at FAULT with this one??
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2022
- In this action packed vlog, we crack on with the ‘boring’ jobs leaving the Cosworths alone for a day, plus, good news on the XKR job and another warranty claim from the same customer as previous video, but are we at fault with this one? You decide
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Hi Lee.
You take the hit for the head gasket on the MG, but customer pays for modification to crank seal and all labour associated with taking out engine and fitment of supplied parts.
Sounds like a right knob of a customer really....there is always a "do more for nothing" guy out there
Haha! A customer cannot possibly expect you to install every upgrade, mod or "problem solver" unless he clearly states it at estimate time. Due diligence.. It meets specification. You've done what was asked!
Hard to complain about things that he didn’t ask for, didn’t get and didn’t get charged for.
100% agree.
People like that expect to end up with the benefits of a 2022 engine from a 1950's design. These A and B series engines were renowned for their oil leaks and no matter what lengths we went to it was almost impossible to cure them.
This guy wants all the mods done which may still not completely cure it but most of all for somebody else to pay for it. Your going to have a long fight with this one but stick to your guns Lee.
Definitely right!!!!
Mini's UNRELIABLE you know the rest. Good luck 😃
If you had installed the updated rear main , sounds to me this customer would be upset that his engine is no longer “original”.
I agree, if he wanted it installed, all he had to do is tell you when he first brought in the engine.
That customer has a habit of being wise after the event. If he knew about the seal mod then he should have got you to fit it to start with... like you say many engines you can find a mod for alot of parts
As an engineer working on refurbishments myself (though electronics), the additional seal and work fitting it is his cost, its not part of the original specification of the engine and he didn't ask for it as part of the original work. You also cant be responsible for educating your customer on every single modification, though if you do another engine of this version, maybe you will know to discuss this particular issue with them so it doesn't happen again. Some people will not want to stray from the original design and keep it as is, others will want to make an improvement if it can be.
Reconditioned engines are back to factory specs with factory equipment anything that's a modification should be spoke about prior to quotation so price can be adjusted as often more modification is required to factory parts to fit
Can't see why you should have been expected to fit the modified seal off your own back in this instance - it's not for you to decide to modify someone else's engine and in many cases with classic cars, if you were to go fitting modified parts without the owners consent/request, that would actually piss the customer off, because they want to keep it 'original'!
I do think it would be remiss when you quote for an engine if you didn't propose or recommend any mods that you think are worthwhile because they resolve 'known problems' with an engine though. Lots of customers may not know about them and that's where they're paying for your expert opinion (plus you're heading off potential future problems) - happy customer is a good/repeat customer.
I have the feeling that neither parties were aware of the modification prior to it starting to leak.
As an engine builder, if there are ANY modifications from standard, I let the machine shop know what I want, listen to their advice, and supply any bits that will be needed for the modifications.
That customer is not correct in insisting that the machine shop should’ve supplied and installed an aftermarket modification for a common problem with a specific motor. That decision is up to the customer BEFORE agreement of work is finalised.
If I had an old car and it was being restored I'd actively be pissed off if someone fitted some modern bolt on part without my specific say so. What if I'd wanted to show the car or sell it as an all original car.
Your totally in the right here.
Unless your 'customer' specifically instructed you to 'upgrade' the rear seal it is NOT down to you. Seems your cutomer is a right one, if it was me I wouldn't take any more work from him.
My thoughts exactly!
Spot on 👍
This isn’t your problem, you have supplied exactly what you should have the labyrinth seal system will always tend to weep but other than that dose it’s job. Problem is people are used to late model engines that generally tend to be leak free and compare them against it and assume there’s a problem where there’s not. The upgrade can be problematic and definitely make him aware that they they can and do start weeping themselves. I would suggest if your got plenty of work on going then I would put customers like him in the to hard pile. Unfortunately some people you can never please and will find fault where there isn’t. All the best love your channel your doing a great job. Remember he who hasn’t made a mistake has made nothing
I can`t see the timing cover, but there appear to be no breathers on the bits I can see. A series need lots of crankcase ventilation. There are so many variations in breather position it`s easy to end up with no or very little ventilation, and even a modified rear crank seal will leak. Customer should have asked to start with, not your fault, particularly as the customer is a restorer, they should know all about A series engines.
Those early RWD A-Series engines with the crank scroll are notorious for oil leaks at the crank. I once met an old chap at a car show who used to sell brand new Morris Minors in the late 60s (same crankshaft design). He told me that, even on the showroom floor, they had drip trays under them. The problem is actually more about when the engine is stopped; when it's running, the scroll generally works alright, but when you stop the engine, oil drips down from the head onto the rear main journal area, and basically falls straight out the engine. There are several aftermarket kits to install a proper rear main seal, but the only one that works properly is the MED Engineering one (they're basically A-Series ninjas), which is quite expensive. To be honest, most never bother. You just accept the limitations of the design and keep topping the oil up.
"If there's no oil under it, there's no oil in it."
That oil seal is a modification or alteration to the engine, so it’s not your responsibility.
That's like ordering a cheese pizza and getting mad because they didn't put pepperoni on it.
God bless the B series, I work for a classic restorer in the NE and we "specialise" in mgb's and midgets. There's a running joke that if they're not leaking oil they don't have enough in 😂. The bellhousing normally has a split pin located in a hole at the bottom to allow the oil to drain when it leaks. They all get 20w50 and all leak a little. This customer is pissing in the wind. The aftermarket seal should have been presented to you and discussed prior to the work being done. 100% not your fault. Keep up the fine work, love your content.
I don't think either of them knew about the seal kit until it started leaking.
If a customer wants a modification done, it's their responsibility to do their research and ask the engineering company to advise on the pros and cons of the mod.
The customer should have advised you of all the problems with the engine, including any existing oil leaks so a discussion and advice be sought, if he wanted an original rebuild, he got one, everything else, up for discussion, options and pricing.
You are perfectly in the right Lee , you have honoured your warranty side of things and gone out of your way to find others experiences of the rear scroll etc. if he wants his car back he can get his wallet out , is his name victor meldrew 🤦♂️. As you say any deviation from standard spec he should have said so. Stand your ground as you are 100% in the right. Love this channel it’s top knotch 👍🇬🇧
09:00 onwards - that's it, oil in sump pushed up the back wall on accelerating. And that mod, yes! It was done but on B-series MGA's first way back. Crap design rear seal arrangement. That is why engines then caked in oil around there. Going up hills happens mainly and can't avoid that no matter how thick the oil grade is or level. Make note for future, both on inline A-series and B-series BMC/BL engines, especially when it sports applications with all that hard accelerating.👍
I have my own garage, I’ve learnt from experience, people come to us because they don’t know what there doing, they want expertise and advice, I give every option and describe every pitfall, so we’re all singing off the same song sheet, saves all this , my attitude is if i get a baker to fix a boiler I expect problems, that’s way I use a qualified gas engineer, I expect him to advise, I don’t have a clue , same with cars etc , love the channel by the way
If I understood correctly, there is the owner , the restoration shop, Barum engines. If I was the owner probably spending a small fortune having my car restored I would be well annoyed with the large oil leak. It’s down to a lack of communication in the first place, Barum and. Restoration shop should share the costs and lesson learned; definitely no more work undertaken for that restoration customer, it’s just too much hassle. Nothing wrong with Barum engineering, good luck with sorting the money. There is no guarantee the modification will sort it but we live in hope 🙂
I agree with the majority of comments here: the engine was restored to original specification which was the work paid for. It’s unfortunate the head gasket started to weep a bit, but that age of car it will happen. I’ve re-built a couple of engines, one Volvo and one Ford. The Volvo engine was leak free, but the Ford one - although simpler in design, weeped oil out of the front crankshaft seal. I could never get it to seal up completely, it had one of those “oil throwers” you mentioned. However after a few thousand miles it almost solved itself. Maybe the oil seal had been on the shelf a long time and needed quite a few heat/cool cycles to work !. Nice video, I liked to see the liners going into that block and the subsequent stones getting it perfect..
When I worked at a Peugeot main dealer we fitted a recon engine to a Peugeot 505 auto . The customer returned after a couple of weeks with gearbox problems. Transpired that all engines are supplied with a crank spigot bush fitted which must be removed for installation with auto box. We then found that the crank and block were also damaged because of thrust face damage caused by the torque converter not engaging into the rear of the crank. So we had to, at our cost, rebuild the engine and gearbox and so our bonus payment for that month was zero. Six months later a local Vauxhall dealer presented an identical scenario to us demanding a warranty repair (they had fitted a recon Peugeot engine to a 505 auto). Guess what, Peugeot paid for their costs! I would add that the engines weren't fitted with any sort of warning to remove the spigot bush when fitting to auto's.
Lee, a common misconception with scroll seals is they provide a perfect seal at all times and unfortunately the same also applies to lip seals.
With a new/rebuilt/re-con engine the blow by can over power the ability of either seal type to do it’s job until the ring package is bedded in and then the crank ventilation system can handle the run in blow by which can take up to 2k miles with some installations to stabilise.
If the engine uses a draft tube the end has to be in the air stream and angled correctly and any extension or hose added has to reflect the slash cut and not fold with the air stream, and it only works at 15+ mph, or if a pcv system only at or above a specific negative manifold pressure.
I have run many engines with no seals and high negative pressure crankcase systems with no running leaks but that will dribble when shut down.
No seal can hold it all back unless it is perfectly designed and fitted and operated within its design specs.
My 2 bob,s worth, great ethics, nicely done work and videos, just remember there are “Customers” and “customers” you pray for the former and hope you don’t get the latter.
You're right, stick to your guns!
You are absolutely in the right. It's a modification which has nothing to do with reconditioning.
I think you did alright in my book. It sounds like a OEM issue, it came leaking and I’ll give it back to you leaking. It might even be by design to leak oil.
I would say to give customer service and let people know in future, maybe avoid those engines.
There’s a good chance the aftermarket seal won’t even work either from what I read. I think your doing the best you can, some people just don’t want to hear they are wrong.
It is an old MG. Those things leaked oil straight from the factory. This is not a big secret.
@@chrisallen9154 Correct those rear seals would sling Oil for a pastime, happy days when you put Straight 30 SAE Oil in for the Summer and 20 for the Winter...possibly running 0/30 Fully Synthetic Oil ...What could go Wrong....
@@malachy1847 Everything was good once a nice blend of oil and road dirt encapsulated the engine/transmission interface. Goal was to never wash the engine too clean. We all kept a large cookie sheet in the trunk, or boot as some call it, that you automatically put under the engine to catch the drips.
when you parked.
Back in the day they thought it was brilliant design. The scroll never wore out unlike a seal (unless the mains went bad). Rear main seals in those days were not very good at all and wore out fairly often. A drip every few minutes, normal right.
The SR71 Blackbird cost millions of $$$$$$, & whilst wait to take off from runway it leaks aviation fuel. It leaks fuel until it reaches mach2. A & B BMC engines are disigned to leak oil🤔, so the driver still knows that there is oil in the engine. When it stops leaking 🤔, he knows to fill it up🤔😎🤣🤣🤣🇬🇧
I agree with you. A recondition puts things back to factory spec not improve a bad design. My guess is he didn't know about the oil seal upgrade until it started leaking and someone told him about it. Perhaps he wishes you had mentioned/offered it last year?
Hi Lee, I'm with you on this one. Also @John Searby on the comments has a really valid point on crankcase breathing..I had a 1973 1275 (1293 with overbore) A series MG midget and I restored over a 5 year period.I didn't know about your company then and as up country (as you say) got the engine work done in the Black Country..As an A series lover I read up on all the bug bears and indeed the scroll seals are talked about non stop on the forums, it's up to the owner to do their background research..John makes a very important point because any positive crankcase pressure coming from the top of the engine will cause the oil weep..end of story......The scroll seals do work but remember this is 1960's ish technology and it's luck that your scroll seal works if the tolerances are correct.. It would be good to check if the customer is running the original Twin SU set up as this on the 1973 set up took the crankcase pick up and feeds back into the inlet manifold to lubricate the upper cylinder head and help with gassing.. Also check what type of oil filler cap is used as the original allows for a small element of gassing. I took the the machined engine parts and rebuild the short engine myself and had no issues at all...Also very important not to use thin modern oils as they can leak past seals if the viscosity is too synthetic(thin)..just use Castrol GTX 20/50 is more than adequate for these old engines..BTW one of the best mods I found o make tuning simpler, is to modify the Timing marks to be relocated at TDC onto the top of the crankcase cover as timing the midget from underneath is a real pain in the neck...great channel...BTW from up country but born in Plymouth..cheers Martin.
I am only a bicycle mechanic , I restore vintage bicycles , even I know that scroll seals leak . There is a reason that vintage car owners invariably have something under the car to catch the drips , back in the 70s every road had a thick crust of oil where cars parked . I would suggest that customers of such rebuilds as the 1275 is to literally go through a sales check list with your punters and include questions like , " what modifications would sir like ? Or does sir want an all original spec engine back" .😘
I agree if the customer was aware of the mod and wanted fitting he should have requested it in the first place.
You don't owe the customer such a personal service. I agree with your way of thinking Lee!
A curly one regarding the rear main seal kit, the owner likely didn't know about it until he started doing research into the leak, but he did entrust you to overhaul the engine and perhaps suggest modifications that might be worthwhile (as extra work/cost). It depends on where you position yourselves as the authority on reconditioning older engines. In the past I have fitted valve stem seals on engines that never had them when they left the factory, a no brainer, and fitted lip seals in place of rope rear main seals, just because they work better. IMHO you should do the work at cost as a goodwill gesture, it could pay off in more work in the future.
Great Video Mate ,don’t let People take the piss mate ,they will if they can ,they don’t understand the working of these Engines ,and what it takes to rebuild them Properly!
It's like you say from time to time "we can't know everything about every engine". I feel this checks out in this case if the mod is going to detour you away with extra hours on top of the original estimate then in my mind at least it's down to the customer to specify in advance what actions they want taken prior to the job being carried out. It simply makes life easer for everyone all round when all parties are on the same page from the start line.
Chris. I totally agree with everything you've said, now bear in mind there a folk out there that want everything for nothing or at least something for nothing, me thinks this guy is one of them and trying to pull a fast one.
@@kwakgreen you could be right
I agree with you Lee, he was made aware that you recondition to "Original Manufacturer Specs". You thoroughly checked everything and assembled when you were satisfied. He didn't mention the mod, if he wanted the "Mod" done I say he should have mentioned it and supplied the part before re-assembly. In my opinion, he should pay for the lot.
Hey Lee, I'm completely on your side.
1st he didn't mention any oil leak, so why should you expect one...!?
2nd If he wants modifications that are not stock he has to tell you. No one can expect that you do that without any order from him.
That would be very unprofessional, to put on any modifications that the customer didn't order and up the price with that.
So you are completely right on that!
I bet, if you had fitted that without order he would have complained why you did that...
Some people don't want to be pleased, they just want to complain.
And if he already knew that that part exists he could've atleast asked if you know about thar and if you think that's useful. That's what I'd done.
Cheers to you and your family. Have a nice weekend!
Very good that you have highlighted this Midget issue. I,ve been involved in restoration work for most of my working life and it is getting worse with attitudes as well as parts quality risks. After 35 years I am calling it a day and finishing my customers projects most of whom have been loyal and a pleasure to work for. It is very difficult to keep hourly rates low and maintain the best possible workmanship. This almost always means many unpaid hours because you know the time could no be justified to the customer.
Tips for new restoration engineers include; rarely take on a job as that was removed from another restorer after a dispute. Invariably you quickly realise why the previous engineer was probably all too happy to see it go! Further, think carefully about criticising another engineer’s work without knowing the instruction he was “actually” given.
On the other hand, there have been many proud moments too.
youre a good man. I had an engine rebuilt once and it failed within 12000kms. well below the warranty period and they literally blamed everyone else. the engine looked like it had a grenade dropped down in it. I even got them to do the servicing for my engine so there was no doubt in my mind that it was on their end
That is a tough call. I understand both sides. 37 years in the industry. Customer service aspect if I know, there is a problem with the manufacture, “engineers“ definitely advise customers before the build .. some customers do not know what they need me being the service advisor can make preventative recommendations to fix the engineers mistakes. If I installed every upgrade on every build, I did customers would complain that it was too much$$$$ absolutely not the Machine Shop‘s fault . That being said, enjoy your channel. 💪
Explained you position perfectly clearly to me on the customers 1275 engine, you only do what you do to OEM spec, if a customer requires extras/moderfication that's down to him to specify.
Re the A series head gasket Lee - I do classic minis and only use the Payen black BK450 gasket with a small seal of Wurth silicone sealant on the head and block where the oil feed comes up through the block and normally they don't leak when done like this.
Interestingly when the cars were current these gaskets had an o ring seal around the oil feed and obscurely after a certain point they deleted them from the gasket.
Those copper gaskets tend to leak around the edges and blow the fire rings between the middle two cylinders after a while for some reason.
I think people use the copper ones as the heat transfer between the head and block is better on older engines.
Also better off using the later higher tensile A+ studs stamped with a 'Y' as these can be torqued to 50 lb/ft.
Also use the A- nuts with the built in washer as they offer better clamping.
And oil wise 20/50 all day long - a lot of people put these super thin modern oils in them and wonder why they leak from every orifice and burn oil!.
Let him pay for the rear seal fitting as that's his choice - they nearly all leak oil from there anyway due to the 1930s technology involved!.
As you say there are loads of improvement to be made like this and timing chain tensioners etc, but you are reconditioning back to factory original specification which is what you did.
Oddly, as soon as I started watching, I checked the forums to see how common the issue of leaking is. It's very common for the 1275. I had to have some background on the issue before viewing any further, only for Lee to bring up the forums himself.
I don't think there's a yes or no on warranty here. Since Lee has been very generous in the past in doing work under warranty that frankly I wouldn't have done, I suggest going half-way on the cost of labour.
Another great video chaps.
Good to visit your workshop last week and see the action take place.
Nice one.
Totally with you , your job is do do the job to factory spec , if the customer wants modifications it's up to them to tell you .
Some customers won't want mods on an old engine and want to keep them original , I bet if you had modified it without telling him , he'd be moaning it's not original.
On the customer mate it’s a modification not original manufacturer spec that’s how I see it
I’m with you, Lee. If the customer wanted the uprated real seal kit, he should have asked for it and paid accordingly.
On all engines without a rear seal, I would suggest the kit and extra cost and also remind them in writing whatever warranty or not for the seal kit install. If they don't want it, the rework is their cost. Usually it not worth keeping a bad customer.
If you start future proofing/future maintenance an engine build, where do you draw the line? Forged pistons? H-beam rods! Hell why not do a full forged block and uprated crank while you are at it. Then invoice him and see if he's happy?
Definately his problem. Many people who do restos demand originality, it shouldn't be your job to determine what the customer is after. Your job is to build engines to original spec unless agreement is reached with the customer BEFORE the work is carried out.
That would be a upgrade . Old engine sometimes weep oil. I’ve got a old 59 pre-unit 650 Triumph and it weeps a little. Love to see your builds . Would love to have you in the Carolina’s in the States.
If a customer wants an aftermarket/modified part fitting, then that's up to them to ask if you can supply and fit these parts.There is also a risk that the quality of these parts is unknown, they might not work, or even worse damage the engine. A lot of classic car owners don't want anything modified , they want to keep it as it left the factory.
Your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't....you could tell the customer to fit this modded part and still find it leaks, then the customer will say" but you said, fit this and it leaks....
I could be wrong, but didn't you in the past have trouble with on of these modded seals failing ?
Indeed, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t!
I agree, many do not want to modify their classic cars.
My dad had this problem on his 67 Triumph Spitfire. had the crank welded up ground and used the rear seal from the newer model motor.
The scroll oil seals do a decent job, no modification required. But the engine breather system need to be right, with the right pipes and no kinks. Also the blowpast is likely to be greater until the pistons/rings/bores have bedded in.
Ultimately it's really hard to know every mod for every engine or car. Unless you specialise in just a few engines it must be hard. As the specialist restorer I'm suprised the customer hasn't had this before
Damned if you do,damned if you don't. The good thing here is that you come across all your videos with honesty and keep your cool with awkward customers. Sometimes it must be very frustrating so kudos to you for that
1275 Scroll seal - they leak like a sieve at the best of times. Designed for shite monograde oils, the thinner 'modern' oils are developed to wick into voids such as this.
'Thick' classic multigrade, low level as mentioned, and a clean free flowing breather plumbed into the vacuum side of the intake stops the idle speed wicking.
A mechanical seal, such as you described, a spiral slinger to push oil away; can only work while the engine is running; if the oil level, at rest, is above the level of the journal; it will most certainly seep out. My thought; the oil level is higher than manufactor's spec.; wrong dip stick installed; maybe do some research and testing of what the exact oil level should be and make a custom dip stick to maintain that level; Also he runs the engine very little; mentioned no miles; which would make this problem even worse with time spent in storage. In storage; a rear tire goes flat, and you'll have a mess; engine tilted backward; oil leaks out. Also many antique enthusiasts want original parts; values go down when aftermarket items are added; so definitely have the owner sign off on installing after market.
It all comes down to what was agreed in the first place, i.e. make sure you are covered at the QUOTE STAGE. I'm with you on this, you've done what was asked & offered a solution which he should at least try. After that, he's blagging it.
He's at it. If he doesn't take your expert opinion he will never be happy, fix it this time and be done with the customer as he will be more trouble than he is worth over the long run, if he ever needs work done it's a case of stating you are busy and would not be able to get to it for months, or quote him enough to make him walk.
With old stuff like the 1275 engine, they normally want them kept as original as possible. At the end of the day it’s his responsibility to check and ask for mods not yours. He’s trying it on !!
Agreed mods are in addition to a standard rebuild.
Recon engines should be done to manufacturers spec. any mods should be manufacturer approved if not no guarantee as to suitability can be given unless it is proven by ones own experience. If the customer wants one of these mods done it is up to him to specify it and pay the cost involved.
BL1275 rear scroll on midget/sprite never produced any seals other than the scroll although the scroll was redesigned at some point so I was told but I never noted any difference on any engines I ever worked on. Back in the day, 1960's, no engine could be considered oil tight by modern standards due to loose manufacturing tolerances. Oil seepage and small leaks were the accepted norm. I looked after friends a 1275 Sprite for over 3 years and oil seepage from seal/scroll was never a major problem. It was evident but within what was the accepted norm. Tuned A series engines often ran at 800-1100 miles per pint of oil and this was considered acceptable.
I would agree with you how can a client argue with such a cogent explanation. The only thought I have with these 'old' engines is to create, with experience, a file which should another of these engines appear can be cross referenced to your customer offering an upgrade. Business like his you can well do without.
Coat the head gasket both sides with Blue Hylomar and fit when tacky, then build it up
(BMC mechanics trick)
Definitely down to the owner for any modifications that he knows about to at least tell you about it and get your opinion on it
This is an easy one it is down to the customer if he is a specialist and restores these engines he knows this is a problem. To my mind he has now found the leak and now expects you to sort it. So if this was me and I had the same knowledge before the engine was done I would have asked how much for this modification simple. He is pulling a fast one. Before you do it tell him how much it will cost to put it on tell him you will not guarantee this part as it is not yours then let him decide. Simply he is trying to get you to pay for his mistake. I am with you on this one 100% and send him the bill for the hours to do the job. Sorted, I think you have been open and fair above all honest.
Hi Lee, I ran a 1275 Midget engine in a Morris Minor Pick-Up for years back in the early 80's. The rear scroll always leaked and the engine had been completely reconditioned and carefully checked by a very reputable local engineering company. The problem was made worse by using Cooper 9.75:1 pistons that seemed to increase crankcase pressure and overwhelm the standard breathing system. Saying that the engine went very well with a 731 cam and a big valve 1300 GT 11 stud head. I found the copper gaskets always blew across 2 and 3 and ended up using a genuine MG Metro head gasket which never went! The only way to reduce oil loss from the rear scroll I found was to use an oil catch tank with breather pipes from the rocker box and front casing. If you are still using the original cylindrical oil separator on the timing cover split it and take out normally rusted and clogged up metal internal separator. You have done nothing wrong in my opinion except build a strong engine that has over whelmed the original scroll design as I did. I wish that seal update had been available back then, it would have stopped my Dad moaning about the stains on his drive!
You're right!, he's wrong!. If he's not mentioned fitting the seal kit then it's not your job to do! 👍
It would depend to an extent on whether the customer had mentioned the rear main leak when the job came in. You certainly cannot do mods off your own bat and then present the customer with the bill for it. As engine builders you cannot be expected to know of every possible mod to every engine in existence and to know whether they are needed or not. You could always offer to do an hour's worth of internet searching when a job comes in and tell the client now much extra charge there would be for your time.
It would be interesting to see how many took you up on that
Lee even the modded seal kits tend to weep because you're using a Ford seal and there's no pressure to ensure the contact plus the crank end is rarely exactly round. Ask me how I know. Haha. I use a BSA drip tray filled with kitty litter in the garage. I missed you saying what kit the kit car is based on. I have a Locoblade which along the same lines as yours. They're great fun.
No payment, no car, simple. I’ve modified cars, mainly minis, and I always spec what I want and supply parts and pay for the time. Any re-work or regrets, I pay for again, business is business, I pay for the skill, experience and time.
Labyrinth seals rely on low pressures to not leak, so a new engine will have more pressure than an old worn one, especially the pump.
That Red Snap On tool chest is lovely! ❤️
I agree with you, a reconditioned engine is returned to its original form as best as possible not with mods!!
I fully agree with you. You reconditioned the engine and you rebuilt it to the original Specs. Fitting any upgrade would I suggest would come with an engine " Upgrade " not an engine " Recon "
Great job by the way I have enjoyed seeing the nerdy engineering jobs most of these type of Vlogs tend to give a miss to and are skipped or edited out LOL
Re the seal. Consider saying to the customer. Recondition doesn't mean modified unless specified prior. Next the customer refused generally accepted club advice on how to oil such an engine. So the customer should take the advice or at least try it first. Else accept that they want the seal installed now and they pay for the kit. Re the cost of hours for engine in and out - consider going halves. Half was your investigation because of oil pump potential fault and half is their seal install. They are a repeat customer after all.
PS I enjoy the channel greatly
Good vid very fair comment. Those old A series engines were always covered in oil it was just expected...
Hello Lee, Great vlog...it was nice to see that your 'new' van is a 6 seater, so you the wife & 3 kids, & somewhere still for your business partner John to sit....lol.
Or l guess, every other weekend use will be the 'share' anyway...😀
Well , customers that want a modified 100% leak free rear mains need to get their wallet out. Many of the engines going through your workshop have a rope/scroll setup , he needs to pay for the seal kit and an amount of labour that does'nt leave you feeling abused.
I see the long stud 4.2 Jaguar on the floor [ corroded studs horrible !] , the current offering of crank rope seal is poor quality unlike the original asbestos one--you also need the sizing tool. Alternatively grind the scroll off and buy a £200 stretch lip seal from rob beere that stretches over the crank flange in one piece + fits in the original housing [ do not consider any cut seal conversion]. You will also find that filling with the correct amount of oil by volume, the dipstick will show one third to half full on an E, so your comment about oil level and viscosity is valid on all engines.
The only thing I would say is have a sign made up stating you don't make any modifications to any engine or transmission. You build them back to OEM specifications unless otherwise instructed too make specific modifications and make sure they see it and read it and understand it before you even accept the engine or transmission into your shop. So if they decide to try to save a few dollars. It's on them and no matter how big a fit they want to throw you still have them dead to rights on it. It's knowones fault but their own. That way they have no excuse.
It's down to the customer to state if he wants the modification or not especially when he knows that it's a common problem. You cant be expected to know about every engine and the common problems with them. I think next time if a engine comes in I would ask the customer if there are any common issues and if they know about any modifications that they would like. I would also go as far as to ask the customer for a email as to what they want you to do to the engine.
Restore the engine to spec and let the customer pay for upgrades. I always charged people for upgrades to the original build back when I worked at a dealership. The one thing I would suggest is to include some disclaimer or operating recommendation at the time of service.
So, it's "Perfect" yet it still leaks oil in 3 places? The only oil transfer through the cylinder head deck would be to lube the rocker arm shaft and the drain back holes. The rear main slinger works OK, but only if you install it in the right direction. Otherwise, it will screw oil out of the crankcase. Any crankcase pressure will exacerbate this. These little MOWOG tractor motors aren't much, but we can at least keep them dry until they're out of warranty.
Having had oil leak problems with most old engines I have rebuilt , would always strongly recommend fitting a modern lip seal kit .
Otherwise , get the customer to sign a disclaimer regards scroll seals and the inevitable leaks.
I recently spent over $6000 rebuilding a Sunbeam 1725. It was heavily modified and every modification was either requested by me, or recommended by the builder and discussed at length. My machinist would never have done anything I didn't ask for, nor would I want him to; it is the customer's responsibility to clearly outline expectations. It is the machinists responsibility to educate the customer on how best to meet those expectations. I am very happy with the communication that took place with my builder and the now 115bhp motor that revs easily to 7000rpm, making my Alpine a spry little bugger. Perhaps you failed to recommend replacing scroll seals with modern seals (I had replaced mine years ago)... that's about the only legit complaint the customer might have. But that leak is not your fault and it is not appropriate for your customer to expect an upgrade without expense or "under warranty".
My take - he KNEW rear seals are worthless, regardless - given original specifications. New seal easily may not fix his gripe. He's on for the full run. I get the feeling of a set-up job here on his part. He should have brought this up when he brought the engine in, discussed options and cost THEN, not now. If he's stubborn and hard-headed, just tell him not to bring you any more work and all warranties for previous work are over - see how he likes them apples.
Unfortunately people forget that the people working on the engines or vehicles for that matter don’t actually design them. Most of that old stuff probably leaked in the showroom, it is what it is
I'm with you Lee he didn't ask for the kit to be fitted initially .
Hello, re the new seal add on and who pays ? The Customer pays for the add on and the labour.
If the customer knew there was an add on he should advised yourselves prior to the work. ( for the purist , the engine will not be original.)
Also where would you stop, any other issue with the engine he will be back again, its human nature.
You run an upfront business , be confident with your work and charge accordingly.
All of these small issues can be avoided if you update your T&Cs and have the client sign the job order, including the T&Cs before you do any work.
If you are doing old engines it can help to do a bit of research especially when you have a crank oil throw back, This is a common thing on these engines, the customer should have asked for this but you should have known about the oil problem with these engines and suggested in the quote, all in all an easy one to fix but could have been avoided. 10 / 10 fot the work you do.
Don’t you just hate a pain in the ass customer?? It makes me feel better that assholes are world wide. As a mechanic in the states I completely understand what you’re dealing with. Keep up the great work and channel on RUclips. I’m hoping to meet you in august when I’m over there.
Plain and simple. You did as asked. If he wants an upgraded seal it’s up to him.
Head gasket labour no charge..... I would be charging for the labour to fit kit and time in and out of car .
scroll oil systems are a pain in the arse , what you dont know is if some one has align honed the block this is when your troubles start if it has been ,i have had a lot of grief from engine machine shops that havent done the job properly, im particular as i ran a machine shop
As an ex motor mechanic,I,believe in belt and braces.I have never had practical experience of this problem,but I know about it.It was a rubbish design in the first place but a very old one.Maybe when the engine was first designed thy didn't want to use leather seals,and the scroll type would last longer.If this is still a problem then the mod should be offered in every quote.Nobody is going to see it,and the engine is oil tight.If they refuse,up to them.
He got a quote to rebuild his engine. He got a rebuilt engine to factory specs ! If he wanted a bullet proof race engine, he would have asked for titanium connecting rods , forged pistons, carbon pushrods have a billet aluminum head made maybe for real durability have dart or world products cast a billet block with correct provisional oiling, deeper oil pan with swinging oil pickup tube. now that were up to $80,000 to $100,000 for an engine it’s finally bulletproof, In hindsight he wants