There are dozens and dozens of companies that have similar language in their warranties. Basically all kitchen/home appliance manufacturers for example.
Not really a big win, this was a pretty straight forward M-M violation. A big win would explicitly address the electronic codes that disable a product if aftermarket repairs are made.
@@ttww1590 Its not like foreign companies dont do this, honda just sent a cease and desist order for a file hosting site for hosting files to 3D print your own parts that dont infringe on their IP. Nintendo and Sony have a bad reputation for doing the same thing.
Tired of all these "American" companies that hate and have to be told to be American. Screw Harley Davidson...screw John Deere. Plenty of other companies around the world are more American than they are!
Shouldn't we look at what forces have changed the dynamic of a proud "made in America" business ethic? We've outsourced some really important products to our detriment.
Really? Capitalism is not American anymore? Since when? I mean, keeping business on yourself is one of the most capitalistic things there is. Jokes aside, no-true-Scotsman argument never works. Especially when you try to argue that American born, American run, American owned company is somehow not as American as some other random undisclosed company. Just don't do that. You can do so much better to support R2R.
Some of this new SoC stuff they are doing is total bullshit. Standard parts off the shelf are cheap and can be found anywhere. They guy buy specially modified versions of those off the self parts with minor (often internally dangerous) changes… such as swapping power and data lines just so they can be a single supplier. The devices would cost less and and easier to repair is they didn’t use non-standard parts… but that’s a problem not a feature when they want to sell you the next $1k+ phone. I’m glad they at least stopped the short life firmware updates so I can at least keep my phone as long as I choose versus them killing it off to force me to upgrade. I’d like to see companies be forced to escrow the firmware/operating systems so when they feel they no longer want to update a version the code will be released and be available to be maintained and fixed if consumers so choose.
@@mwwhited What System on a Chip features are you unhappy with? Is onboard RAM one of them? Should technological advancements be stopped because you want to upgrade your RAM, or should everyone else be penalized so every manufacturer gives you what you want? Right-to-repair is a different issue than “ease of upgrading”. Some phone vendors maintain compatibility with their older models when they update the OS. I know of one phone vendor that supports phones for 6 or 7 years, and even then release security patches for older OSes no longer under development.
@@MidwestFarmToys the topic is, right to repair. I'm not a farmer who has to sit for days or weeks with a broken combine harvester in the field waiting for a John Deere technician to get parts and fix it.
I have been a Harley tech for twenty years and have patiently been waiting for this because I knew the Harley practices were completely wrong and never agreed with them and have argued with my manager about this more times than I can count. The only time aftermarket parts aren’t covered is when they are the PROVEN cause of went wrong. In reality it’s very hard to prove if a part is the cause
@@YouTViewer if I remember correctly Suzuki’s use kehin carbs just like Harley. A carburetor is a carburetor. As long as it is the correct size and not under or over sized, jetted properly it works. If you got to make an adaptor or custom intake that to me shows you have some skills. If you add in cv, flat slide or butterfly I would be wondering what the application was. Cv is the best all around to adjust to moderate changes in elevation and flat slide is way more responsive plus they have more circuits but only works at a constant elevation. Butterfly is for old bikes that people don’t want to move up in times to a better carb. But even if you did bring one in a bike most likely it wouldn’t be on a bike with its two year original warranty and if you did I would be impressed with the custom work but laugh at the severe down grade. I would like to see that on a m8 and run it on the dyno to see how good I could get the fuel curve. Depending on exhaust m8s have way different demands than tc, evos, shovels Haha I forgot to say yes I would be ok with it
@@anitabonghit266 Abso-freakin'-lutely today's very best, way too long, over answer to an inane question on You Tube! Somehow I relly feel JDT got way more info than he wanted! Just awesome! FR
@@anitabonghit266 You've probably never been around them but the best carburetor to run on a Harley is a British SU, they're not nearly as exhaust sensitive as other carbs especially an S&S and they have unequaled throttle response on a Harley, they have the precision of a Swiss watch, it's the original CV carburetor, SU is the company that originated the CV design. Carl Marrow, the owner of Carl's Speed Shop in Daytona Florida set a world land speed record back in the early 70's using one on a Sportster and years later when he released his own carburetor called the Typhoon he based it on the SU's design. Although they don't you'd swear they have an accelerator in them the way they operate, Keihn originally tried that with their CV design but couldn't get away with it and added one after the first few year's, like a carb with an accelerator pump if you miscalculate a cold start and it's about to stall you can pump the throttle of an SU and they'll catch just like if it had an accelerator pump in it. Back in the day we used to scrounge through junkyards looking for wrecked European cars that had them with the prize being a 2" throat SU from off of an E type Jaguar, it took a little customization to mount one on a Harley, you had to cut the mounting flange off of a Harley intake and weld on one cut off of an intake from the donor car and do a few other mods to make them work on a bike. Rivera Engineering started offering kits complete with an intake and throttle cable bracket and did a few other mods to brand new SU's they were selling for just about any Harley application you could name, they even have a fast idle cam on the cold start valve circuit with an automatic release, after you're sure the bikes warmed up you just blip the throttle and it comes off fast idle. In mid 97 SU updated their carbs by revamping a few wear points in them and including a bi-metallic jet holder that moves up and down with temperature changes so not only did it's CV design compensate for atmospheric pressure changes but the latest one's also compensated for temperature changes, not like an EFI system can of course but certainly more than any other carburetor you can mount on a Harley. I'd never take an EFI system off one of my Harley's and pit a carb on but every one I've had with the exception of one that had whatever type of carburetor that was on it when I got it got replaced with an SU. There is no other carb in the world that runs on a Harley like one.
Does anyone remember when in the financial reports they reported on "durable goods" ie appliances? Way back in the mid 60s (when i was a litle nipper) my parents bought a new washer and dryer (Canadian, the brand was Inglis and was then known for high quality). Dad was at work when the guy who sold and serviced them delivered them (small community). He got them installed and told my mum she only had to do one thing to make the washer last forever. He had tapped a hole into the transmission and installed a grease nipple. He told her to get this specific grease and give it four or five shots every year and it wouldn't fail. My mum, being no dummy and capaple of doing stuff like that, greased that thing anually. Washer lasted close to four decades of hard (four boys) use before a plastic part failed and it was done. My wife and I inherited the dryer and apart from replacing the drive motor, the drum belt and the felt seal (all available through a local appliance parts store, that thing went for another decade and a half (three boys) before it finally gave up the ghost. Then, the controls were almost clockwork mechanisms. Now, it's all about circuit boards. And gues what? If you have a stove, washer, dryer, fridge or just about any other appliance beyond 5 or 6 years - the circuit boards are no longer available - period. Not OEM, not anyone. So if these things blow at a ridiculously low number of years there's no choice but to but a new one, with yet more circuit boards that will not be supported in five years. We may get the right to repair, but the manufacturers of this crap will get around this by giving us the obligation to replace.
That's where an intelligent businessman takes advantage of their stupidity and foolishness to offer a superior product and call them out for their inferiority as a part of their advertising...
I have to agree with you there. Flip side of the last part of your comment is that now we have the government (Canadian & US) beaking at us about recycling and when an appliance "fails" it ends up in the landfill for the most part and we in turn have so much electronic waste cause of this philosophy of manufacturers not supporting their products past 5 years.
my tumble dryer packed up , took it to a friend who knows electronics and fixes stuff like that , he tested a few things , eventually found a part , removed it , tumble dryer worked great for years afterward , i asked him why didn't you replace the part ? he told me that the part did absolutely nothing , and as far as he could tell it was simply a device that worked like a timer , counting down a certain amount of time and then breaking the circuit so the machines would no longer function
Spot on. Designed in obsolescence..even brand-new products can't get critical chip components now ! Who knows about availability 5-20 yrs down the road ?
The big dog in this not to repair is John Deere. They won't release their computer code that shuts down their farm equipment until a John Deere does the repair making farmers stuck in the field with any breakdown
I never understand the fools who keep buying there brand.I’m a no brand type guy who look for quality and ease of repair in equipment.It’s like so many brands are not what they use to be, most are manufactured over seas anyhow.It’s like trucks today compare to my 20 year old Chevy Silverado, have guys who have these new 80 thousand dollar trucks that they can’t even change a headlight bulb(400 dollar parts and labor )Me?10 dollar and 5 minutes.Ac blower 80 dollar about 10 minutes.My brother pay 3000 to have his ac fix on his Ford F 250.Fuck that crap.Nothing but pure greed driven society, and to many fools who willing to pay for a logo.
I'm happy to see right to repair being enforced. Forget about cars for a moment, imagine the scenario of having to go back to the builder of your home for any future home repair. They tell you that you couldn't buy products from home depot to repair a leak because they'd "brick" your home stopping it from working (no electrical, plumbing, doors not locking, windows not opening, etc). It's just not acceptable and completely unreasonable. This type of practice hold customer hostage to whatever non-competitive prices you are forced to pay.
I'm not sure what took this one so long, especially with all the attorneys buying Harleys. LOL. Have seriously been having this discussion and debate for YEARS with other riders.
@@MarcosElMalo2 actually Harley is big with personal injury lawyers that work in the motorcycle injury business because they want to give the I'm just like you look
The alternative Is that the lawyers enjoy riding and that's why they got into that niche of lawyering. But having interests would require them to be people, and we all know lawyers aren't people.
@@Recreationaltrespasser absolutely some of that as well. Didn't mean to make it sound like any group was a monolith as we all know that not to be true
A lot of people buy a bike, and don't ride it much, and don't do their own maintenance. I see lots of 2-6yr old bikes of all brands that have maybe 5k miles on them. So it went to the dealer for 2 oil changes and never got ridden enough to need tires, belt/chain, or valve adjustment.
We had seminars on the _Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act_ when I was in the biz. The one caveat that we told customers is that if there's an issue caused by your aftermarket oil filter, oil, air cleaner, etc. then damage caused by that would not be covered. In real life, that rarely occurred.
@@DoubleDoubleWithOnions Project Farm did a few cheap versus expensive oil episodes and I recall there wasn't significant difference in their ingredients or performance.
Of-course we should all know about Louis Rossmann YT channel and how he also is fighting for the Right to repair. this is great that we starting to see this starting to happen, next that should be targeted is the greedy practices of Subscription based only software.
Changed my oil in every bike I’ve owned over the years. Been more than a handful. Couple years ago I finally purchased my first brand new Harley. All of a sudden I wasn’t allowed to change my own oil. Of course I want to have a warranty on a 40 grand bike, so to the dealership she’s gone twice now for fluid changes. Nothing wrong with it I guess, but I enjoy doing these things on my own. It’s taken away what I consider to be an important part of owning a bike. I have an entire garage set up to service my bikes, I should have the right to do so without losing a warranty on such an expensive purchase. This is nothing but good news for me, and I’ll be contacting my local dealership for a conversation about this news. Thanks for this video!
HD wants you to buy THEIR Syn3 motor oil, and claim the same oil can be used in all 3 holes. First of all HD is NOT a lubricant manufacturer, and secondly using the same oil in all three holes doesn't pass the sniff test. The clutch, the gear box, and the engine all have different lubricating needs. BUT if you apply common sense and use a much better product, it voids your warranty. Syn3 is manufactured by CITGO. The reality is that HD "recommends" whatever oil will give them the biggest profit margin. I own 3 HD's and I run Mobil 1 in the motor and clutch, and Amsoil Shock Therapy in the gear boxes. I've never had a drive train failure, but then again, I won't let HD touch ANY of my bikes. I prefer to do all my own work.
Exactly. People don't understand servicing your stuff is just as much of a hobby for some of us. I caught grief when I bought my last truck and didn't want their "oil change package" the lady told me no one changes their own oil anymore and I'd be sorry for not saving money (still came out to about $50 an oil change, I do it for $25 with synthetic and a good filter)
@@im2yys4u81 the oil works fine it's got additives each system needs it won't hurt anything however I agree with you that I'd rather use the proper lubricant for each. Especially when some manufacturers are making such great products vs. An all in one from whoever the lowest bidder to Harley is
You and louis Rossman should be commended for bringing right to repair to the public's attention. Many people probably didn't know they do have a choice when it comes to repairing devices that they own. That choice has been slowly taken away over the last decade or so. Glad to see the trend reversing.
@@Sidicas It is sad I have to hook a scope up to a dishwasher when new, so I will know what signals are used through a wash cycle should I even need to repair it.
@@robertsmith2956 It's a big problem that major appliances are using circuit boards that are using junk components that fail after a year or two and then they charge you hundreds of dollars for a replacement board when all the components on the board together combined are worth less than $0.25. And they do this knowing full well that Japan's Nippon Chemi-con makes electronic components that are rated to last almost 100 years in extreme hot and cold conditions and are used on most satellites by JAXA and NASA, while also being available for consumers to buy and use as well. Appliance manufs. don't use them because the extra cost of the higher end electronics components cuts into their profit margins just a little tiny bit and they always just care about maximizing those profit margins.
I remember paying $40 to repair my Trash 80. It was just a fuse. The fuse was located inside the computer behind stickers on the seams saying it was a violation of the warranty to cut the stickers. The next time it stopped working, I held my breath in fear, cut the stickers and replaced the fuse for 10 cents. Those stickers were illegal at the time.
A fuse blowing repeatedly could be caused by another problem. Possibly some of the $40 would be for the technician to inspect the computer for such problems before just replacing the fuse and declaring it fixed. One thing the stickers might prevent is someone just changing the fuse or using a bigger one while ignoring something that might burn up more than just a fuse. I question what good a warranty is that won't cover a fuse.
@@Foolish188 It wouldn't have to be modern to work. I used to work on devices from that era that used varistors to detect surges and blow a fuse, protecting the rest of the device. I'm not arguing against the right to repair your own devices, only trying to point out a reason that manufacturers might not want others inside their devices during the warranty period, as useless as it may be if it doesn't cover fuses. I am thinking of a former fumble fingered co-worker, Stevie Sparksalot, who has no business getting inside anything electrical. I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, merely that not everyone does.
@@the11382 Dude when you repair a Tesla that you purchased. All functions become disabled. The only way to fix this problem is to pay the Tesla repair shops to activate them. One of my cousins works for Tesla and brags about this function as if its something to be proud of.
Just to clarify, Harley is being told to change their warranty to comply with the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. Right to repair is a whole different, but related, issue.
Very closely related- because they're saying that just using non- proprietary parts is voiding the warranty. It's another type of monopolistic trade practice, similar right to repair.. Really any company that engages in these practices is no friend of thier consumer- so they should just be avoided completely/ boycotted until they stop..
@@aaronhumphrey2009 consumers are too dumb for avoiding/boycotting or it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. I've come to see consumer protection laws as protecting me from the poor choices of other consumers. That is, the bulk of buyers are needed to achieve large scale production and reasonable production cost, the protection laws are needed to prevent those same buyers from completely ruining those products. There is a counter argument however that allowed to freely evolve this middle of the road market would split to provide two options, terrible and good. Which is reasonable, but I have doubts about there being a large enough fraction of the market above the dividing line. But at the same time allowing the lower side to nose dive may push some of those those in the middle to the upper side. (This may be why there were more good quality products in the pre-consumer protection era. Even accounting for survivor bias.)
It's not different at all. Magnuson Moss says you have a right to repair your own device or have a third party repair it without voiding the warranty. Many companies' warranties illegally say you don't. Notice the phrase 'right to repair' in there. It's not the only right to repair issue right now, but it is a big one.
@@chitlitlah If you look into the right to repair movement it has to do with factors other than warranty. It has to do with third parties inability to obtain parts and schematics to perform repairs, the inability to ship aftermarket parts into the country, the inability to sell aftermarket parts, and companies suing small repair shops who perform repair work without "permission" from the manufacturer, though the permission is also stated as "authorization" which is only granted to dealers of that product.
@@chitlitlah most of the recent "right to repair" complaints have centered around manufacturers that employ technological measures to prevent a third party repair from working properly, totally bypassing the legal considerations of the warranty. They make it impossible to repair it yourself, even when it is beyond the duration of the warranty. They use software to enforce their restrictions, rather than voiding a warranty, avoiding the letter of the M-M Act law, while breaking the spirit of it.
👏👏👏👏 I'm a huge fan of the right to repair. Corporations in general have been able to get away with a tremendous amount of blatantly anti-competitive acts for decades. We also have a HUGE problem with corporate conglomeration and a severe lack anti-trust action.
I always like the Stanley brothers, who made the Stanly Steamer motor car. In addition to not selling on credit, they also said "Hey, if you want a written warranty, buy a Ford. If something we made breaks and it's our fault, we'll fix it. Period." That was true, without time limit or cost limit to repair or replace. In one case, the brothers replaced a two year old car with a new car of the same type.
Had a Ford dealer try this crap on me. Bought F150 new. 6 mos later, battery is utterly and completely dead overnight. FIRST question they asked when I called the dealer I had bought it from was "What modifications have you made to the truck?" They knew I own a very heavily modified Jeep. They advised that I would have to pay well over $100 diagnostic fee, pay to tow the truck to them, and pay for a new battery. Their reason? I had a fiberglass camper top installed, but not by them. That was LITERALLY the only "change" or modification to that truck. They tried to tell me I had voided my warranty. They told the tow truck driver he would have to disconnect the transmission and drivetrain (4x4) before towing as we couldn't shift the transmission to neutral. Then I would have to pay for them to reconnect it. Looking at a minimum of a few hundred $. Nope. Jumper cables to provide power for the brake safety switch, shifted to neutral, up on the truck and drove PAST that dealer to another one that said "We're sorry, you got a bad battery. We replaced it under warranty. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience this caused." No $ out of my pocket, even for towing. That first dealer also tried to weasel out of performing a TSB for transmission work by saying it was a "sealed" transmission and thus could never be worked on, AND the reason the transmission shifted roughly and took so long to shift was "You're over filling the fuel tank". Seriously, they really did say that. They tried to tell me there is a "sensor" in the fuel tank neck that cannot get wet. When I required them to explain what this sensor did, point out to me its location in the filler neck, how it would effect transmission shifting, and how one is supposed to fuel the vehicle via the ONLY fueling access point without said fuel making contact with this mysterious sensor placed directly in the path of the fuel but that also could not get fuel on it... they had no answers. Always act like you know less than you do when dealing with these charlatans. Ask them to explain things that you already understand. That's one way to spot the liars and hucksters.
Years ago my father had a chevy truck with one of those ill fated convertion diesel engines in it. On his way from Michigan to Florida, it blew out a head gasket and valve. He had it towed to the local Chevy dealer. Where he waited three days for it to be repaired. He got fifteen miles out of that town, when the whole side of the engine blew out, from a ingested shop rag, that the mechanic had left in it. Chevy tried declining the warranty because it wasn't a defect, the dealer didn't want to take the blame either. Fortunately my father knew somebody higher up at GM and had a new engine delivered asap. All told he ended up putting four different engines in that truck before he sold it about four years later .
That is such a load of crap. I’ve been a Harley tech for twenty years and they aren’t really that bad. Do some break down, yes they do. Just like honda and Toyota’s do to. I find more issues because of poor installs by lousy techs and by Johnny at home doing his own work, then I do with bikes actually breaking. You find out customers mess with their bikes and break something and when they bring the bike in the customer says “I just found it this way.” I don’t mind people working in their own things because it’s theirs but don’t cry to me when you pay a lot more for diag because what happen can’t happen unless it was messed with. When you are told they didn’t touch it, you go through the normal diag process but when I know you touched something it will cut down on time which cuts down on what you pay
@@anitabonghit266 I've owned my 2001 Heritage Softail since 2009, the only thing I've replaced (excluding routine maintenance) is the ignition switch. I'm satisfied with mine.
As an automotive tech I have to explain this to people all the time. Clearly Steve explained it quite well there at the end. On a side note I would not recommend a K&N air filter. It is not particularly likely to cause any major problems but the level of filtration is quite less thorough than a normal air filter (I would go with wix or the high-end Purolator) Not with a factory warranty anyway. It will indeed provide better flow but along with it more small particulates. Project Farm has a fairly decent video where he tests different air filters and the airborne particles. Also the oil that you coat the filter with can cause some minor issues with some mass air flow sensors. Basically they'll get slathered in oil and need to be cleaned.
Yep, K&N don't filter as well as regular paper filters until they are dirty. And you are right that over oiling them can screw up MAF sensors. For what they cost I never saw a good reason to get a cleanable filter for car/truck. Dirtbikes have multilayer foam filters that get oiled, but they also go much shorter times between service.
The FTC also needs to go after bogus parts dealers if they are going to do this. I think that this is a good step, but they also need to crack down on bullshit add ons that do nothing or, even worse, actually cause harm. I have used K&N air filters, and they work just fine. Keep 'em clean, and they work just fine.
Not everybody makes this distinction, but it’s important to distinguish between right-to-repair and ease-of-upgrades. Add-ons that can negatively affect the original equipment could void the warranty in some cases and I have nothing wrong with that. However, it’s a different matter they are unrelated to a warrantied repair.
And is the original or replacement part made poorly by children in a slave-state expansionist dictatorship sponsoring regimes promising to destroy you, as they have also been planning/trying since the 1950s Korean War..
Maybe this is the start of the opening of the eyes to all those that oppose our right to completely own products and bust monopolies who try and trap consumers.
This is a fine baby step for the FTC. Hoping that Congress would address CAF and RtR is just a dream. Too many times manufacturers will deny your warranty because you did XYZ. The onus is on the manufacturer to prove that XYZ caused your current issue as a basis for denying your warranty. Consumers too often just accept this as they were not informed of the MMWA. Stickers over fasteners saying void if removed are also an illegal misinformation annoyance.
Motorcycle warranty is always void if you have any work done anywhere but the dealer.. Not just Harley Davidson.. When I buy a new motorcycle, it has no warranty because I do my own service so incompetent dealership mechanics don't do irreparable damage to my bikes.
@@richterman3962 sometimes, dealerships & private repair shops, charge too much $, break parts, complete shoddy work. It happens. If you've had new tires installed, for example, & later found cross threaded lug nuts you should understand his point. Some of us can do every repair needed to our vehicles in our own garage if we so choose. Not stupid, you obviously can't do what we can.
I can see manufacturers now going to great lengths to ensure their own parts are difficult to replicate, forcing others to struggle to make pattern parts.
Car manufacturers have been putting their names on parts like headlight assemblies. They don't give permission to aftermarket manufacturers to replicate that so if you repair with a non OEM part it won't look the same.
I had an 1987 Mercedes 420 SEL. In 2010, I took it to get a dealership to get a recall related to the cruise control addressed. While it was there, some very mechanic just started doing other stuff and putting it on a bill. One of the things he did was put power steering fluid in. Except, it didn't take power steering fluid. It said in huge letter letters on the reservoir that it took ATF, and not power steering fluid, and it also said so in the owner manual. He tried to tell me it took some kind of special Mercedes power steering fluid.
I love the deal with a label that says warranty void if removed. That's illegal. I peeled that label off one of the screws on my laptop when I wanted to add a second SSD. I had a problem with the laptop while still within the warranty two months after the second SSD. Use of those labels is deceptive. I informed him that it is against the law.
At 9:15 you mention K&N air filters. The common warranty refusal with K&N filter was failed MAF sensors. The dealers would point to a little bit of oil on the sensor part of the failed MAF sensor and tell people, "See! The oil from the filter has damaged the sensor and you have voided the warranty." Funny thing is that a common way that the MAF sensors would fail is by cracking and the small quantity of internal oil that the sensor contains would leak and be visible. Had a great tour of K&N and they explained that they had gone after any dealer that did this in a big way. If you let them know and provide them with the part that a dealer claims was damaged by a K&N filter, they will have it tested with a mass spectrometer to show that the oil is not from the filter but instead is from the inside of the sensor itself. They will also go after the dealer to honor the warranty. They reported that they had never run across a cased of a failed MAF where the oil on the sensor wasn't from the sensor. They said that the public outcry of people who had their warranty repairs denied (and didn't enlist K&N's help) had hurt their business and had spawned the rumor that K&N filters were damaging. BTW - Their test facilities and the type of test particulates they use is really impressive. They throw the whole book at their tests. They filter out markedly more then a standard paper filter.
I worked in an auto shop for a couple years and saw many k&n filters installed...and the thing I noticed is that on certain models of all makes would through a MAF code and when we would replace the MAF with OEM factory or aftermarket it would kick that code back on immediately...change the k&n out for a stock filter and the code would go away...this was usually on non-performance oriented vehicles so a performance oriented MAF was not available to go with the K&N...customer and I got to talking and decided to experiment with the cheap aftermarket and with slight tweaks to the shields that on the inside of the MAF he got to keep his K&N and I got to clear the MAF code out for good
Wrong doesn't work that way bubby and this very bad example with K&N air filter not unless you're just that stupid and pour a whole bottle oil on it, I used K&N air filter 40+ year and do auto mechanics and never seen one fail your myth is hog wash.
My grandfather always washed his ring air filters. I remember him hanging the washed one on the clothes line. He just swapped em every so often. He never owned a K&N. Also, air filter for my truck runs $10-15, K&N, last time I checked years ago, was over $70. It’s hard to clean one enough to save money, at least in my truck, lol
I've been using a K&N air filter in my 07 Saab since it was new. I've cleaned it, per K&N guidelines, every 50K miles. The car now has 176k miles on it.
The reason why K&N filters have been frowned on is that after cleaning and oiling of the filter.. oil residue tends to get all over the MassAir Sensor and the Intake Temperature Sensor which some vehicles have both of them inside the air Intake duct right after the air cleaner housing where the filter sets.. the oily residue can destroy those sensors.. Mass Air Sensors have heating elements that is used to calculate the incoming amount of air crossing them.. then measuring the amount of current/voltage needed to keep it at the set temperature then utilizing an algorithm inside the P.C.M to measure how long the fuel injectors stay open, how fast it opens etc to inject fuel.. in addition to other things like ignition timing etc.. in a worst case scenario.. that would not only cost more fuel consumption and poor performance, (engine stalling etc).. it COULD cause excessive pre-ignition/detonation and cause internal engine damage to the pistons, piston rings, valves, crank and/or rod bearings etc.. which will require engine removal and rebuilding.. not to even mention the potential destruction of the catalytic converters which can also be QUITE expensive to replace as they aren't able to be rebuilt. I use them on my 69 SS Chevelle (which has no P.C.M or catalytic converters).. and my two 86 GT Mustangs (which are primitive electronically by today's technological standpoint).. and have great results.. but I'd be cautious with using them in later model vehicles. Just saying..
@@pseudosmith9945 Great reply, thank you. In addition, the stock air filter will flow more air than the engine will ever demand. It will still do so when old and partially filled with contaminants, as it is designed to continue to flow enough air between normal service intervals. Only reasons to 'upgrade' are if the engine has been modified and requires greater airflow, or for aesthetic reasons. K&N do tend to have bigger 'holes' in the filtering medium, so there's always the possibility of larger contaminants getting through. The oil catches some airborne stuff, but anything likely to do damage is also likely to not get caught by an oily film. In general driving areas, there should be no issues, as attested to by high mileage owners, but the risk in desert areas is higher. The right to repair at least gives us choice.
@@pseudosmith9945 I bought the car new, put the K&N in at about 2600 miles and I have always maintained it. I've never had an issue with any of the sensors. When I clean and oil the filter I don't over oil it.
@@nigelcox1451 all correct and valid points.. was about to add some of those very remarks.. but then got to thinking that it'll likely turn into a book on here.. lol.. there are so many causal effects that can result from even the slightest perceived "upgrade".. there are always consequences.. some good and some bad.. the trick is to know how something truly functions before any changes and when upgrading anything thinking "Is the juice worth the squeeze"... lol
@@nigelcox1451 my car is tuned, but stock otherwise. I got slightly better fuel mileage after installing the K&N filter, but that could be because the first 2500 miles were put on it in Europe, where I broke every new car break in rule there is. But it's got 176k miles on it and its still got most of the factory installed parts. I had to replace the AC condenser about 2 years ago, but the water pump, power steering pump, alternator and a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting are all original. Hell, I'm still on the original clutch!
Can you imagine having a generator way out in the bush and then having to cart it all of the way back several hours to the nearest dealership? Imagine having a construction site down for a day just in transit time for something simple. These are not people who care about their customers.
I do remember a few years ago when I was working at a Ford dealership we were told to deny warranty coverage on failed Mass air flow sensors if the vehicle was equipped with a K&N filter. Their claim was that the customer would use excessive oil on the filter after cleaning and the oil would ruin the sensor.
I'm one of the old guys on several motorcycle boards. There are several, mostly newer riders that believe they must return to the Dealer for everything. Some of it is their own misunderstanding. MOST of it is the Dealer lying to them about returning for parts, service and accessories - where they really can make a lot of money. Read your owner's manuals required service interval chart. They 'kind of' make it sound like some things must be done at the Dealer.
"You used a non-Harley spark plug..." This sort of this is very common with computer repairs. The thing is, if you know what you are dealing with, a lot of the sparks are exactly the same thing. I don't mean similar, I mean exactly the same. Last year I bought a new laptop. I got a Lenovo Ideapad Flex 14 with Ryzen APU. APU's combine both graphics and CPU in the same chip, and because of that they have no dedicated graphics memory (VRAM), and they share the system RAM with the CPU. Knowing this I wanted to immediately upgrade the 16gb to 24gb to free up memory of my graphics in case I want to play some games. So before buying it I contacted Lenovo customer service and asked them if this particular set of Crucial RAM modules would be compatible. They responding saying I am not allowed to install it because I will void the warranty. After I got the laptop, I opened it up, and the RAM inside was the exact same model that I had been looking at. There are 3 main companies that make RAM chips, those are SK Hynix, Samsung, and TSMC. There are more companies than install those chips to PCB boards for sale, such as Crucial, Kingston, etc. And even more rebranded consumer parts from those. But they are all SK Hynix, Samsung, or TSMC. There are 2 main companies that make power supplies for desktop computers, Seasonic and Great Wall. You might buy an HP tower, one day it doesn't turn on so you take it to a local repair shop. Easy fix, they replace the power supply. Say a year later it has a motherboard failure and the local shop doesn't do those, so you call up HP to use the warranty... They refuse to fix it because you changed the power supply so it's your fault. Well that's nonsense because the HP power supply and the Corsair one that the local shop installed are both Seasonic 450w 80+ Bronze units, just rebranded. They might even have the exact same model number, it's just that one has a Corsair sticker and one has an HP sticker. I see stuff like this all the time. Cell phone screens are the same way. They say it had to be fixed at the factory because you have to use their screen and not some random generic one. Their own damn screen is a random generic one. It's either a rebranded Samsung display, or a rebranded LG display. And if it's not one of those, it's gutter trash. So they should be thanking me if I install a Samsung display in place of the random piece of trash they used. It's making their phone look better than it is.
I read that in Iraq and Afghanistan when military generators failed in the field technicians were not allowed to repair them because of the warranties. Leaving many forward units without a generator for weeks.
Back in the 1990s I worked for a large rock quarry / asphalt plant contractor. The company bought large earthmoving equipment from Caterpillar. Caterpillar insisted that only Caterpillar filters be used on the equipment. The company used Cat filters for a long time,which are much more expensive.I showed the shop foreman the Magnuson-Moss act that was printed on the last page of the Napa filter interchange catalog. Not long after that we switched to Napa filters which meet the standards of SAE and the company saved a lot of $ not buying Caterpillar filters.
I've heard of shops denying warranty repairs due to unrelated parts. I've even heard them makes stuff up like a blown fuse causing the fuel pump to go bad. Not a failed still making contact fuse, a blown out as designed fuse. The logic was that it caused a surge and momentarily got past the fuse before it could trip. That's obvious speculation.
A fuse is just a strip of inert, conducting metal, essentially a wire that melts if too much current goes through it. There is no was a fuse can cause a surge in either voltage or current.
@@andrewalexander9492 i worded that wrong, the fuse didn't react quickly enough to protect the circuit. Even still I don't know if a power surge would damage a fuel pump.
@@HH-ru4bj Ok, even still, that excuse is on pretty shaky grounds. The fuel pump should work just fine hardwired through with no fuse. If the pump was damaged by an over- current event, then there is an underlying problem that ain’t the fuse. Either the pump was defective and created the over current problem, or the power supply was defective and created the overcurrent through an abnormally high voltage. Even if you had a faster blowing fuse that blew before the pump was damaged, there’s still a problem in either the electrical system or the fuel pump itself.
@@andrewalexander9492 well yes that's logical. Something still caused that fuse to blow, and most would see the fuse as a symptom and not the cause. More likely I would think that it was the load that failed with a short circuit that allowed an out of spec current demand.
@@HH-ru4bj Yeah, I'd agree that the most likely cause would be a short or something in the load, but I have seen power supply malfunctions whcih create problems also. I had an alternator go out in an airplane and it's last dying gesture was to give out a huge voltage spike, whcih blew out some capacitors and created some smoke.
Steve, your channel has rapidly become one of my favorites. I am almost 71 yo, and I can tell you that Capitalism no longer means what it did when I was a young man. Indeed, my father wouldn’t have even recognized what is going on today. Furthermore, it is obvious to me why so many are turning to Socialism in this once-proud land. Ultra Capitalists have brought this situation upon themselves and deserve a lot of Very Hard Knocks lest capitalism becomes the New Slavery. Before I go, my first bike was a so-called ‘Harley Trail Bike”, the ultimate misnomer. That thing was so heavy that my buddies all called it a Harley Fergusson.
It's socialism for the big guys. Reagan placed tariffs on non-American motorcycle companies to help HD, instead of letting them compete. Big companies get government aid, while any help the citizenry asks for is responded with "not enough money."
We purchased a used car years ago (Saturn) for our daughter from a dealership in our area. When it needed a new radiator we went to that dealership to get a genuine GM radiator. I think I asked service writer if this would be a Genuine GM part when writing up the estimate (not sure, but it was on my mind when I went in) I was waiting for the car. When they were done, I asked you did put in a genuine GM radiator, he said no we thought we would save you money. I raised a stink "why the hell do you think I brought the car to the dealership to get the radiator replaced? I have a wonderful mechanic that I could have taken it to. A few weeks after the radiator blew and took out the head of the engine. Dealership would not do anything, the shop that provided the radiator would not do anything. So we tried JB Weld to fix it, nothing so we ended up donating it to a local charity for parts. I am happy to report the dealership is out of business, as well as the parts store that supplied the radiator. My husband and I know the local GM rep husband was friends with family for years, I am sure we told him about this also (around time when GM was restructuring, after gov't bailout). LESSON TO DEALERSHIPS; DO NOT F WITH YOUR CUSTOMERS, YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF OUT OF BUSINESS REAL FAST, WORD OF MOUTH WILL KILL YOUR BUSINESS.
I know people who had piles of aftermarket parts in boxes waiting for warranty expiration to be put on. Almost to the point it was a whole other bike in boxes. Now we can modify as soon as we buy our bikes. Huge win for right to repair efforts
I know bikers that go to the dealership for every single small service and oil change until their warranty is up, not because oil changes are under the warranty, but because they are afraid anything else will void their warranty with the manufacturer. I rode with a guy who refused to patch a nail hole in his tire, insisting it be towed to a licensed dealership for service.
come to think of it this must have been part of how HD was able to establish a *liscensed first party* "aftermarket" parts empire. Screamin Eagle, Vance and Hines, etc.They're not stock parts but they were sold by and installed by a harley dealer so they probably don't void your warranty
3700 W Juneau Ave, Milwaukee WI, the countless typewriters I repaired in the 1980's at that facility. Memories. Harley has not been Harley for a very long time, just a name today. Even in the 1980's it was not Harley but much closer then what it is today. We absolutely need the right to repair anything.
Wow! There are so many people who own cars that think they have to take it to the dealership for everything or else their warranty is voided. I have had this discussion with people for years. We never did it, because we have a repair shop for our car that we have liked for 30 years.
Damn Steve I knew you was a car guy but your lingo tells me you know an awful lot about the actual mechanics have you picked it up as an enthusiast or through your lemon law cases either way it’s refreshing to see someone who has a complete understanding of they’re field from all aspects I’ve followed you for awhile now and thank you
Glad I found 2 Honda ,vtx, 1800 cc cruisers, and a 2013 , 1900 cc Yamaha Raider, for way less than ONE comparable Harley. Cheap to run, and own, and easy to work on, and find info. Maybe one day, I will be rich enough to be in the Harley league.
The KN filter conundrum wasn't the filter itself, is that folks were over oiling them, and fouling mass airflow sensors, and temp sensors, causing engine performance problems, due to the excess oil applied to the filter. Some sensors can not be cleaned due to their construction. A big one that set a precedent was Fram, and their early Ford 6.7 diesel air filters, designed in such a way that they were being sucked into the intake plenum and destroying turbos, Fram neglected to incorporate the function of the foam insert before the filter and caused massive restriction.
Took my Murano to a top rated repair shop with a great reputation because it was already out of warranty. They used third party parts and made everything worse. After multiple visits back and forth, having the shop contact the Nissan repair shop for assistance, they finally took their parts off and had me go back to the dealer to get it done correctly with Nissan parts.
Chrysler products can be that way too, Dad ran across that back in the 60’s and tends to watch the South Main channel, who has found the same with modern Chrysler/FCA products too. That said, I do have a K&N filter and MSD coils on the 3.6l in my daily without issues, but have had somebody without a Chrysler product tell me not to get that K&N for it because the oil gets on the MAF sensor and can ruin them…….I’ve owned 5 Mopars, only 1 I never got around to putting a K&N on and none of them have had a MAF sensor.
Fleet manager for 10 years and a million miles. Anyone who has ever seen a K&N filter and a normal one knows that the pore size is many times greater than the correct filter. That's why it produces more power until it destroys the engine much faster than using the proper filter because a larger pore means far more and far larger contaminates get through. I've been shocked by how fast they can destroy engines. Repeatedly. I must admit they're great for their intended purpose which is racing where you want maximum power at the cost of minimum rebuild interval.
Years ago a friend of mine bought a new Mustang with the new oil Ford used. At first oil change, he was going to do it himself. Ford dealer told him he had to use only Ford oil. When he told the service manager the oil was then FREE under M-M Act, the s.m. changed his tune.
the right to repair also includes you being able to do your own repair. you buy a westinghouse generator and the starter motor fails you should buy the replacement part and fix it the generator. you buy a motorcycle and tire blows you should be able to buy a new tire and do the work yourself.
About time. This has been a sticking point for a lot of folks for a long time. I prefer to do my own wrenching on my Harley and GoldWing. The quality of my own work seems to be better than what I have experienced in a shop, BUT when I do need to take it to a shop, I usually go to a local Indy shop and I am all over what needs to be done and how it will be done.
@@wesss9353 Nothing to do with the mower company. We were building race cars and using RUclips to send videos of the launches across the country to the chassis guys to review. They said not to use the company's name or my real name. I needed one in seconds and just never changed it.
I ran into a situation a couple years ago where the manufacturer deliberately hampered my ability to effect my own repairs. I had a 2009 Jeep Compass with the 5 speed manual transmission that I bought used from the dealership. A week after I bought it, I started getting a check engine light, which my code reader determined was a fault in the cooling fan relay. I took it back to the dealer for diagnosis, just in case it was an issue with the relay itself, or the fan. Turned out to be the relay. No problem, right? Wrong. When I pulled out the relay, it was a tiny little thing about 1"long x 1/2" wide with 5 skinny pins. Every single aftermarket parts retailer that I went to, as well as every online supplier of Jeep parts that I searched on, came back with a standard Bosch 5 pin relay - you know the type, a black plastic cube about 1"x1"x1" that is available everywhere for $5 - $10. And it was the wrong part. The stock, factory installed parts were completely different from what the aftermarket suppliers had been told was the correct part. When I asked at the dealership however, the parts guy came back in 5 minutes with a relay that matched what was in my Jeep. For 6 times the price of the standard relay. Every parts counter used the same VIN to find the correct part. Why was the dealership the only one that was able to come up with the correct item? I went to Princess Auto and bought a new relay for $9, then had a licensed mechanic friend solder in new wiring and plugin for the low price of an extra large steeped tea double double from Tim Hortons. He also changed the starter relay at the same time, as its pins were corroding away as well. If anything happened down the road, I wouldn't be a hostage to having my car towed to a dealership to find the correct relay, that I might have otherwise been able to get at a local general store.
I've seen it when somebody use an unnamed air filter the filter was so thin it ended with a hole in it, and it sucked a bug or a very small leaf or feather and landed on or in the mass air flow sensor and the car or truck would not run or run really rough
Unlawful warranties: my last ink-jet printer stated their warranty was void if I used off-brand ink. So I bought a color laser printer and it has been amazing for my needs: less costly and more reliable by far.
I always wondered why ford dealers would give seatbelt extenders away for free at the customers request but if they are not comfortable with an aftermarket safety restraint it makes sense.
I have been an Outdoor Power Equipment Technician for almost 30 years, as well as a Briggs & Stratton Master Service Technician and Stihl Master Technician. I know that certain parts will void warranty, especially on Briggs engines. Example, a non-approved air filter for the old B&S Classic engines will void the warranty because the filter is insufficient and will allow dirt into the engine causing damage. There are several aftermarket parts that ARE approved, and will not void warranty (Stens parts for one). So customers need to be mindful of which aftermarket parts they get if they want to do their own service. The unfortunate thing is that most regular people don't know which is approved and which is not, heck, most people don't even know there is such a rule in effect, they just see the part hanging on the wall at a big box store, the bubble pack says it fits, the store is selling it, so it must be OK right? Wrong. It's been a problem for a very long time. You mention the K&N filters. On My Honda Valkyrie, and APPROVED K&N filter is on it. I tried both OEM and the K&N, K&N is better for sure. Obviously a 20 year old bike is no longer under warranty, but the point remains that the K&N air filter is approved for that motorcycle, so it would not have voided the warranty. Say it was under warranty, just for the sake of argument, and I stuck a cheapo paper piece of crap air filter I got from Wish on the bike, rode it 1000 miles then the rings are suddenly worn out. Well, nope, not going to be covered by warranty because that A/F is not approved. I've even had customers try to pull the wool over on us by coming in to buy the right air filter, then 2 weeks later bringing it in to say the machine is ruined. We look in the airbox and can see that they were running the machine without an air filter because it is full of dirt, pretty obvious. So, the airbox is full of dirt, but there is a brand new unused OEM air filter in it.... That's not possible, so no, no warranty, we can tell. Tecumseh engines were even equipped with governor gears that changes color if the engine was run low on oil, because there was a problem with people running them out of oil, then filling them up with oil and trying to claim warranty. Customers try to scam too, make no mistake.
11:30 a K& N CAN and i have personally recently seen a K&N air filter interfere with the operation of a mass air sensor. The filter had a bit too much oil in it and coated the mass air element, causing the computer to see less air, causing a lean condition. It ran poorly and acted like a fuel pump failing fuel starvation issue.
Actually K&N has successfully refuted every instance of this claim where the "damaged" MAF was provided to them. When they test them with a mass spectrometer the "fouling oil" has always turned out to be a leak of the oil contained inside the sensor itself. K&N will defend anyone who has a warranty refusal if they can get the part for testing. They do admit that if someone massively over oiled a filter that they could foresee possible issues but they have never seen it happen in an actual warranty case.
@@BorkToThe3rd I don't use K&N. They allow dirt thru the filter which causes engines to wear faster. If a dealer sees dirt in the intake and you bring your car/motorcycle in for service and the dirt is the cause, they will deny that claim.
Hog wash beside all you need sensor cleaner and if someone massively over oiled a filter that they could be an issue but my 40 years of fixing car and truck I never seen that happen.
@@BorkToThe3rd as I stated, I have seen said issue. As an independent shop tech I see things that the DIY like you doesn't. Before you spout company rhetoric, ask questions. The correct question IS: who applied the oil? Answer: the guy that owned the car. I see DIY dumbasses do stupid stuff on the daily. You have learned NOTHING from watching this channel. A simple use of MAF cleaner and a correct cleaning of filter solved the problem. Finally, I have never seen in my 20+ year career as a tech seen a MAF with oil as a part of the sensor, so part number please? Year make model engine size of this oily unicorn please? EDIT: where is this study published?
@4:20 I understand your point, that in general terms we tend to use automobile for four wheeled self powered vehicles, and motorcycles for two wheeled self powered vehicles. Your original statement is correct, if not fitting with these general usages for the words. Motorcycles are self propelled as they use their own motor and do not use something external, like a horse. Motorcycles are also mobile, which is fortunate as their purpose is conveyance. Self propelled mobile machines could all rightly be called automobiles even though we don't usually use the words this way.
It is Awful... I tried to compete with the cops in civil asset forfeiture and now I am in Jail! They don't like the Competition either! I even offered to share with them! They just took it all!
@@mikelarry2602 Absolutely! The Federal Government has become Tyrannical. I think the people can better control their State Gov. when the Fed is a lot smaller.
@@MarsMan1 They all need to be small. It is hard to hold govt accountable. At least with companies you don't like them you just stop buying their product. The govt stop paying taxes and see what happens.
a lot of companies do a warranty that states you must use the dealer for the first 10 oil changes or for the first 50K miles, or something like that or void warranty
Back in the 70's when harley davidson had AMF on the gas tank they voided warranty if you removed even the AMF from the tank. They wonder why they are in the position they're in now ! Then in 95 I bought another brand new bike, , if sputtered and backfired when taking off from a stop, I brought it back to harley and they rejetted it and charged me for it because now it wasn't under warranty cause it wasn't emissions legal. I tried to argue my point that they should be able to make bike drivable and emissions legal. This was in 1995 and I had been riding since the 60s they said I needed to learn how to ride, I reverted back to when AMF owned them and said Adios Mother Fuckers ! I ended up putting an S&S on it and runs excellent. I've never bought a new Harley since. Plenty of under 5k miles bikes for sale for cheap. Harley wonders how they got to where they are today, in the SHITTER !
Steve the mass air flow is basic. It reads temp of the sensor, which is cooled by the airflow over it. The computer take those values to determine cfm and then adds fuel accordingly. ✌️
K&N air filters also have another problem for some vehicles. If they have to oil the filter, the oil can contaminate a sensor causing it to read wrong.
There is a company called Nvidia out of California that manufactures electronic devices. In 2013 I purchased a device called a Shield (TV Streamer) for a little over $400, in 2019 the device was damaged by a lightning strike and was now in need of repair, this is when I found out that the manufacture doesn't even have a repair facility and will not provide parts or even drawings to local repair shops so that it can be repaired. If you want a working Nvidia Shield you have to buy a new one. If this is not a violation of the right to repair then there is no such thing. The feds need to go after these people!!!
K&N air filters can cause issues, but usually due to improper use. They must be coated with oil to collect dust from the intake air. Excessive oil can be sucked out of the filter, and getting that oil on the Mass Air Flow sensor can cause incorrect readings or MAF sensor failure.
When I worked at GM dealerships, any driveline failure more than a fluid leak required a photograph of the scan tool displaying the vehicle calibration data screen. Any change in the programming voided the driveline warranty. This was most common in trucks. One guy came in with a rod knock with less than 10,000 miles. He had the correct calibration, but the history showed the truck had been reprogrammed with an aftermarket calibration, then reprogrammed to the original before bringing in for the rod knock. No warranty.
Funny I just saw an TSB yesterday that was talking about over oiled aftermarket air filters causing a poor running/drivability issue because the excess oil could end up getting on the MAF sensor causing it to give erroneous readings. Fix was replace filter and clean the sensor.
Such great information !! As a small business owner in the Motorcycle arena I am affected greatly. Sharing to my FB page! Thank you Steve! ~Dominick (owner)
As a mechanic I don't like K&N. What I have observed many times is dirt that gets past these air filters. In many cases the foam seal that forms the edge of the filter is too soft. It collapses when the filter is installed and fails to seal the filter to the enclosure, allowing unfiltered air to bypass the filter. There is often a very light film of oil on the intake on the clean side of the filter, either from the oil used to treat the filter or from the engine. When removing these filters I have observed many times, significant quantities of dirt stuck to this oil on the clean side. This means that the air filter is not doing it's job. I have not observed this phenomenon in traditional "disposable" air filters. Note that in heavy equipment, disposable paper element filters get washed several times before being discarded.
I worked in a body shop a couple of years ago that was part of a Chevrolet dealership. For a while we were required by GM to hand customers with GM family of cars a paper that GM would not warranty any part that was attached/adjecent to any aftermarket part. That paper mysteriously vanishwd at some point.
You may be missing the point on the aftermarket air filter deal. Certain air filters can cause issues with the mass airflow sensor. Sometimes they cause oil and debris to collect on the sensor wires and other times cause the airflow path to be altered over that sensor, causing load calculation errors in both cases. I’ve documented several cases where transmissions were damaged due to this. The engine, transmission, and even stability control all rely on proper load calculations, and if it’s skewed, problems can and do occur.
I know right most of these people don’t realize sensors work on parameters and when you change parts sometimes that changes other things but sensor is still working on stock parameters
There's a big misunderstanding when it comes to this subject. For instance, John Deere will not allow their customers to have access to the software used to diagnose problems. Let's say your tractor stops working and gives you an error code 43. Unless you have the software, you have no idea what error code 43 means. When the JD service dealer hooks up his laptop, it tells him that the engine oxygen sensor is bad. THEN you know what is needed to get your tractor running. You don't have to buy the sensor from JD but the chances of finding an aftermarket part may be slim. So you buy the OEM sensor and JD doesn't care who installs the sensor. But they just made money from the diagnosis and the spare part sale. The farmer does the actual work to replace the part. Farmers don't really care who sells the part. That's not their issue with JD. They want the software and JD will NOT release it. The solution is to sell the farmers the software on a license basis. The farmers will have to pay, for instance, a monthly or quarterly fee for the license. JD still makes money and controls the software, the farmers are happy because they can now diagnose their machines.
As in your example, you purchase a new motorcycle and they tell you that you must return for the first oil change or else void your warranty, if that first oil change is free of any cost to you, would that still violate the magnuson moss warranty act? P.s. You Sir, are an outstanding RUclipsr. Thank you for providing the content, and your perspective on it, that you do.
He stated that in the video. If you don't have to pay for the parts/service, then there is nothing to protect you from, except maybe bad parts and service.
@@DVankeuren I did catch that, however I'm more wondering that if the dealer service and manufacturer parts/materials are provided for free, does that mean they can void your warranty if you don't use them.
I installed a K&N air filter on a Ford F-150 I once had. It came with all the parts necessary to move the mass air flow sensor. Worked fine. Didn't improve performance or fuel mileage that I could tell or measure, but as noted could be cleaned and reused. Nice since I did take the truck off road regularly to bring my dirt bikes out to the desert or other trails to ride and that kicks up a lot of dust. In addition to your mass air flow sensor example, I could also see manufacturers making a claim that the aftermarket air filter allows more particulates, and maybe even larger ones, to pass through it than the factory filter. But seems like they'd have to back that claim up with data from testing.
@@brianleeper5737 Agreed. The trick that dirt bikes uses with the typical foam filter is the oil. The K&N needed to be properly oiled after cleaning in order to filter effectively.
@@RideGasGas This K&N was oiled from the factory, I never added any additional oil (they say it only needs to be re-oiled after cleaning it--it wasn't installed long enough to get dirty). And it still let dirt through.
@@brianleeper5737 I never experienced that problem. I guess it's one of those your results may vary situations. I will say that I stuck with the factory air filter when up replaced the truck with an F-250 diesel 4x4 version. Just wasn't worth the trouble for me.
@@RideGasGas I wouldn't have even noticed a problem with it if I hadn't run my finger across the MAF screen and found my finger covered with fine dust. Maybe that K&N wasn't oiled enough at the factory, maybe it was defective in a different way, don't know, never using one again, and it made zero difference as far as performance.
I LOVE how pervasive the whole "right to repair" topic is becoming. There are lots of people in the space but Louis Rossmann has REALLY done a LOT for this and I applaud him for it. If this is a new topic to you, dear reader, I highly recommend heading over to his channel and checking some of his vids on it...vids like the ones he made on the God awful one-wheel company Future Motion.
When I bought my truck, it came with 2 years of free routine maintenance. I will probably stop using them as my go-to for my next service as that time is up.
This is a great step in the right direction. Apple, John Deere, BMW, One wheel, and the like need to watch out! Big win for right to repair.
Tesla
There are dozens and dozens of companies that have similar language in their warranties. Basically all kitchen/home appliance manufacturers for example.
Not really a big win, this was a pretty straight forward M-M violation. A big win would explicitly address the electronic codes that disable a product if aftermarket repairs are made.
Something tells me the collective wealth and influence of these companies will guarantee only Harley has to honor right to repair.
Ferrari is a big one, reference Jay Leno's video on why he'll never own a Ferrari.
Right to repair affects everything from iPhone to farm equipment.
and oxygen concentrators for home medical use
@@denvera1g1 and the ice cream machine at Mcdonalds
The Military also runs into right to repair issues.
Ice cream machine at McDonalds is always "broke" because no one wants to clean it.
Odd how it seems many of these companies fighting right to repair are funding the "buy American" advertising and legislation.
@@ttww1590 Its not like foreign companies dont do this, honda just sent a cease and desist order for a file hosting site for hosting files to 3D print your own parts that dont infringe on their IP.
Nintendo and Sony have a bad reputation for doing the same thing.
Tired of all these "American" companies that hate and have to be told to be American. Screw Harley Davidson...screw John Deere. Plenty of other companies around the world are more American than they are!
Shouldn't we look at what forces have changed the dynamic of a proud "made in America" business ethic? We've outsourced some really important products to our detriment.
Maybe that is “ American”. Maybe you just don’t know what it means to be “American”.
Really? Capitalism is not American anymore? Since when? I mean, keeping business on yourself is one of the most capitalistic things there is.
Jokes aside, no-true-Scotsman argument never works. Especially when you try to argue that American born, American run, American owned company is somehow not as American as some other random undisclosed company. Just don't do that. You can do so much better to support R2R.
HD is built in America, but very few parts on an HD are actually made in America. They get around the reality with word smithing.
Gotta love all the historic American brands that have Made in China on the box, or better yet, Manufactured From Globally Sourced Materials.
Once you've dealt with the FED or Harley Davidson, you'll acquire a disdain for either one.
What does FED stand for?
Which is worse ?
@@Yoruichi__Shihouin was that really a question?
I have a pretty funny story having to do with when HD financial briefly got into issuing credit cards... idk if it's fit to post though haha.
@@UmmmmmmmWhat What The Heck does that have to do with Right to Repair?
They need to go after Apple, Tesla, and any other large tech company.
Some of this new SoC stuff they are doing is total bullshit. Standard parts off the shelf are cheap and can be found anywhere. They guy buy specially modified versions of those off the self parts with minor (often internally dangerous) changes… such as swapping power and data lines just so they can be a single supplier. The devices would cost less and and easier to repair is they didn’t use non-standard parts… but that’s a problem not a feature when they want to sell you the next $1k+ phone.
I’m glad they at least stopped the short life firmware updates so I can at least keep my phone as long as I choose versus them killing it off to force me to upgrade.
I’d like to see companies be forced to escrow the firmware/operating systems so when they feel they no longer want to update a version the code will be released and be available to be maintained and fixed if consumers so choose.
@@mwwhited What System on a Chip features are you unhappy with? Is onboard RAM one of them? Should technological advancements be stopped because you want to upgrade your RAM, or should everyone else be penalized so every manufacturer gives you what you want? Right-to-repair is a different issue than “ease of upgrading”. Some phone vendors maintain compatibility with their older models when they update the OS. I know of one phone vendor that supports phones for 6 or 7 years, and even then release security patches for older OSes no longer under development.
John Deere next, I hope
@@MidwestFarmToys huh? Make sense
@@MidwestFarmToys the topic is, right to repair. I'm not a farmer who has to sit for days or weeks with a broken combine harvester in the field waiting for a John Deere technician to get parts and fix it.
I have been a Harley tech for twenty years and have patiently been waiting for this because I knew the Harley practices were completely wrong and never agreed with them and have argued with my manager about this more times than I can count. The only time aftermarket parts aren’t covered is when they are the PROVEN cause of went wrong. In reality it’s very hard to prove if a part is the cause
@@YouTViewer if I remember correctly Suzuki’s use kehin carbs just like Harley. A carburetor is a carburetor. As long as it is the correct size and not under or over sized, jetted properly it works. If you got to make an adaptor or custom intake that to me shows you have some skills. If you add in cv, flat slide or butterfly I would be wondering what the application was. Cv is the best all around to adjust to moderate changes in elevation and flat slide is way more responsive plus they have more circuits but only works at a constant elevation. Butterfly is for old bikes that people don’t want to move up in times to a better carb. But even if you did bring one in a bike most likely it wouldn’t be on a bike with its two year original warranty and if you did I would be impressed with the custom work but laugh at the severe down grade. I would like to see that on a m8 and run it on the dyno to see how good I could get the fuel curve. Depending on exhaust m8s have way different demands than tc, evos, shovels
Haha I forgot to say yes I would be ok with it
@@anitabonghit266 Abso-freakin'-lutely today's very best, way too long, over answer to an inane question on You Tube! Somehow I relly feel JDT got way more info than he wanted! Just awesome! FR
@@anitabonghit266 yer awesome.
🤘y'all have a badass day🤘🍻🤘no limits🤘
@@anitabonghit266 awesome reply. I was glad to read it. Thanks, and happy travels.
@@anitabonghit266
You've probably never been around them but the best carburetor to run on a Harley is a British SU, they're not nearly as exhaust sensitive as other carbs especially an S&S and they have unequaled throttle response on a Harley, they have the precision of a Swiss watch, it's the original CV carburetor, SU is the company that originated the CV design.
Carl Marrow, the owner of Carl's Speed Shop in Daytona Florida set a world land speed record back in the early 70's using one on a Sportster and years later when he released his own carburetor called the Typhoon he based it on the SU's design.
Although they don't you'd swear they have an accelerator in them the way they operate, Keihn originally tried that with their CV design but couldn't get away with it and added one after the first few year's, like a carb with an accelerator pump if you miscalculate a cold start and it's about to stall you can pump the throttle of an SU and they'll catch just like if it had an accelerator pump in it.
Back in the day we used to scrounge through junkyards looking for wrecked European cars that had them with the prize being a 2" throat SU from off of an E type Jaguar, it took a little customization to mount one on a Harley, you had to cut the mounting flange off of a Harley intake and weld on one cut off of an intake from the donor car and do a few other mods to make them work on a bike.
Rivera Engineering started offering kits complete with an intake and throttle cable bracket and did a few other mods to brand new SU's they were selling for just about any Harley application you could name, they even have a fast idle cam on the cold start valve circuit with an automatic release, after you're sure the bikes warmed up you just blip the throttle and it comes off fast idle.
In mid 97 SU updated their carbs by revamping a few wear points in them and including a bi-metallic jet holder that moves up and down with temperature changes so not only did it's CV design compensate for atmospheric pressure changes but the latest one's also compensated for temperature changes, not like an EFI system can of course but certainly more than any other carburetor you can mount on a Harley.
I'd never take an EFI system off one of my Harley's and pit a carb on but every one I've had with the exception of one that had whatever type of carburetor that was on it when I got it got replaced with an SU.
There is no other carb in the world that runs on a Harley like one.
Does anyone remember when in the financial reports they reported on "durable goods" ie appliances? Way back in the mid 60s (when i was a litle nipper) my parents bought a new washer and dryer (Canadian, the brand was Inglis and was then known for high quality).
Dad was at work when the guy who sold and serviced them delivered them (small community). He got them installed and told my mum she only had to do one thing to make the washer last forever. He had tapped a hole into the transmission and installed a grease nipple. He told her to get this specific grease and give it four or five shots every year and it wouldn't fail. My mum, being no dummy and capaple of doing stuff like that, greased that thing anually. Washer lasted close to four decades of hard (four boys) use before a plastic part failed and it was done. My wife and I inherited the dryer and apart from replacing the drive motor, the drum belt and the felt seal (all available through a local appliance parts store, that thing went for another decade and a half (three boys) before it finally gave up the ghost.
Then, the controls were almost clockwork mechanisms. Now, it's all about circuit boards. And gues what? If you have a stove, washer, dryer, fridge or just about any other appliance beyond 5 or 6 years - the circuit boards are no longer available - period. Not OEM, not anyone. So if these things blow at a ridiculously low number of years there's no choice but to but a new one, with yet more circuit boards that will not be supported in five years. We may get the right to repair, but the manufacturers of this crap will get around this by giving us the obligation to replace.
That's where an intelligent businessman takes advantage of their stupidity and foolishness to offer a superior product and call them out for their inferiority as a part of their advertising...
I have to agree with you there. Flip side of the last part of your comment is that now we have the government (Canadian & US) beaking at us about recycling and when an appliance "fails" it ends up in the landfill for the most part and we in turn have so much electronic waste cause of this philosophy of manufacturers not supporting their products past 5 years.
@@jeremymatthies726 That's called "sustainability" and if landfills are our future, then even the planet will become garbage...
my tumble dryer packed up , took it to a friend who knows electronics and fixes stuff like that , he tested a few things , eventually found a part , removed it , tumble dryer worked great for years afterward , i asked him why didn't you replace the part ? he told me that the part did absolutely nothing , and as far as he could tell it was simply a device that worked like a timer , counting down a certain amount of time and then breaking the circuit so the machines would no longer function
Spot on. Designed in obsolescence..even brand-new products can't get critical chip components now !
Who knows about availability 5-20 yrs down the road ?
The big dog in this not to repair is John Deere. They won't release their computer code that shuts down their farm equipment until a John
Deere does the repair making farmers stuck in the field with any breakdown
They can't hide it forever. Someone's gonna break in and post it open source.
That's not technically right-to-repair. That's a copyright issue according to JD. The FTC does need to address it.
I never understand the fools who keep buying there brand.I’m a no brand type guy who look for quality and ease of repair in equipment.It’s like so many brands are not what they use to be, most are manufactured over seas anyhow.It’s like trucks today compare to my 20 year old Chevy Silverado, have guys who have these new 80 thousand dollar trucks that they can’t even change a headlight bulb(400 dollar parts and labor )Me?10 dollar and 5 minutes.Ac blower 80 dollar about 10 minutes.My brother pay 3000 to have his ac fix on his Ford F 250.Fuck that crap.Nothing but pure greed driven society, and to many fools who willing to pay for a logo.
crApple is the big dog, pretty much were this got out of hand.
That is exactly why farmers are dumping the brand for more reliable machines elsewhere.
For a T-shirt company, HD does sell a lot of motorcycles.
Have a strong presence in the belt buckle market too.
$50 T-shirts are a little steep also.
🤘bwaahaahaa🤘
I'm happy to see right to repair being enforced. Forget about cars for a moment, imagine the scenario of having to go back to the builder of your home for any future home repair. They tell you that you couldn't buy products from home depot to repair a leak because they'd "brick" your home stopping it from working (no electrical, plumbing, doors not locking, windows not opening, etc). It's just not acceptable and completely unreasonable. This type of practice hold customer hostage to whatever non-competitive prices you are forced to pay.
I'm not sure what took this one so long, especially with all the attorneys buying Harleys. LOL. Have seriously been having this discussion and debate for YEARS with other riders.
It’s mostly dentists and accountants that buy Harleys. I think doctors and lawyers not so much.
@@MarcosElMalo2 actually Harley is big with personal injury lawyers that work in the motorcycle injury business because they want to give the I'm just like you look
The alternative Is that the lawyers enjoy riding and that's why they got into that niche of lawyering.
But having interests would require them to be people, and we all know lawyers aren't people.
@@Recreationaltrespasser absolutely some of that as well. Didn't mean to make it sound like any group was a monolith as we all know that not to be true
A lot of people buy a bike, and don't ride it much, and don't do their own maintenance. I see lots of 2-6yr old bikes of all brands that have maybe 5k miles on them. So it went to the dealer for 2 oil changes and never got ridden enough to need tires, belt/chain, or valve adjustment.
We had seminars on the _Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act_ when I was in the biz. The one caveat that we told customers is that if there's an issue caused by your aftermarket oil filter, oil, air cleaner, etc. then damage caused by that would not be covered. In real life, that rarely occurred.
Was it harbor freight that sold motor oil that was so poor it was not recommended to be used in cars. I think they got sued over that one.
@@DoubleDoubleWithOnions nope it was the dollar store oil
@@DoubleDoubleWithOnions Project Farm did a few cheap versus expensive oil episodes and I recall there wasn't significant difference in their ingredients or performance.
Of-course we should all know about Louis Rossmann YT channel and how he also is fighting for the Right to repair. this is great that we starting to see this starting to happen, next that should be targeted is the greedy practices of Subscription based only software.
I’m not a big fan of subscription software, but I don’t think it’s right to prohibit companies from using a subscription model.
Yeah internet radio subscriptions were fine, but subscriptions for essential vehicle functions is ridiculous.
"Get a Harley. Buy the best. Ride a mile - Walk the rest." -- 1970's era lament on poor Harley quality back then.
@@Runco990 The location of the dirt bag.
Harley Davidson made of tin,
Ride it out and push it in.
Changed my oil in every bike I’ve owned over the years. Been more than a handful. Couple years ago I finally purchased my first brand new Harley. All of a sudden I wasn’t allowed to change my own oil. Of course I want to have a warranty on a 40 grand bike, so to the dealership she’s gone twice now for fluid changes. Nothing wrong with it I guess, but I enjoy doing these things on my own. It’s taken away what I consider to be an important part of owning a bike. I have an entire garage set up to service my bikes, I should have the right to do so without losing a warranty on such an expensive purchase. This is nothing but good news for me, and I’ll be contacting my local dealership for a conversation about this news. Thanks for this video!
Look up your rights under Magnussen-Moss!
@@MonkeyJedi99 Those rights mean literally nothing unless he hires a lawyer and files a lawsuit...
HD wants you to buy THEIR Syn3 motor oil, and claim the same oil can be used in all 3 holes. First of all HD is NOT a lubricant manufacturer, and secondly using the same oil in all three holes doesn't pass the sniff test. The clutch, the gear box, and the engine all have different lubricating needs. BUT if you apply common sense and use a much better product, it voids your warranty. Syn3 is manufactured by CITGO. The reality is that HD "recommends" whatever oil will give them the biggest profit margin. I own 3 HD's and I run Mobil 1 in the motor and clutch, and Amsoil Shock Therapy in the gear boxes. I've never had a drive train failure, but then again, I won't let HD touch ANY of my bikes. I prefer to do all my own work.
Exactly. People don't understand servicing your stuff is just as much of a hobby for some of us. I caught grief when I bought my last truck and didn't want their "oil change package" the lady told me no one changes their own oil anymore and I'd be sorry for not saving money (still came out to about $50 an oil change, I do it for $25 with synthetic and a good filter)
@@im2yys4u81 the oil works fine it's got additives each system needs it won't hurt anything however I agree with you that I'd rather use the proper lubricant for each. Especially when some manufacturers are making such great products vs. An all in one from whoever the lowest bidder to Harley is
You and louis Rossman should be commended for bringing right to repair to the public's attention. Many people probably didn't know they do have a choice when it comes to repairing devices that they own. That choice has been slowly taken away over the last decade or so. Glad to see the trend reversing.
Corporate power grab. Appliances used to come with schematics so that the owner could repair it themselves.
@@Sidicas Back in the day the owners manual instructed us on how to set the valves. The owners manual now warns us not to drink the anti-freeze.
@@im2yys4u81 It does taste good.
@@Sidicas It is sad I have to hook a scope up to a dishwasher when new, so I will know what signals are used through a wash cycle should I even need to repair it.
@@robertsmith2956 It's a big problem that major appliances are using circuit boards that are using junk components that fail after a year or two and then they charge you hundreds of dollars for a replacement board when all the components on the board together combined are worth less than $0.25. And they do this knowing full well that Japan's Nippon Chemi-con makes electronic components that are rated to last almost 100 years in extreme hot and cold conditions and are used on most satellites by JAXA and NASA, while also being available for consumers to buy and use as well. Appliance manufs. don't use them because the extra cost of the higher end electronics components cuts into their profit margins just a little tiny bit and they always just care about maximizing those profit margins.
I remember paying $40 to repair my Trash 80. It was just a fuse. The fuse was located inside the computer behind stickers on the seams saying it was a violation of the warranty to cut the stickers. The next time it stopped working, I held my breath in fear, cut the stickers and replaced the fuse for 10 cents. Those stickers were illegal at the time.
A fuse blowing repeatedly could be caused by another problem. Possibly some of the $40 would be for the technician to inspect the computer for such problems before just replacing the fuse and declaring it fixed. One thing the stickers might prevent is someone just changing the fuse or using a bigger one while ignoring something that might burn up more than just a fuse. I question what good a warranty is that won't cover a fuse.
@@randystegemann9990 Power surges happened on that street all of the time back in the early eighties.
@@Foolish188 Surge protector for electronics if they happened all the time?
@@randystegemann9990 I will take my time machine back to 1981 and give myself a modern surge protector. Great idea!
@@Foolish188 It wouldn't have to be modern to work. I used to work on devices from that era that used varistors to detect surges and blow a fuse, protecting the rest of the device. I'm not arguing against the right to repair your own devices, only trying to point out a reason that manufacturers might not want others inside their devices during the warranty period, as useless as it may be if it doesn't cover fuses. I am thinking of a former fumble fingered co-worker, Stevie Sparksalot, who has no business getting inside anything electrical. I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, merely that not everyone does.
Denying the right to repair is horrible.
We don't buy Apple, Tesla or John Deere products.
Tesla too? Enlighten me.
Tesla has made repair manuals for free. I have a copy of mine.
@@the11382 Dude when you repair a Tesla that you purchased. All functions become disabled. The only way to fix this problem is to pay the Tesla repair shops to activate them. One of my cousins works for Tesla and brags about this function as if its something to be proud of.
@@thomaswilson2917 I stand corrected then, thanks.
@@BenjiPOTF I kind of doubt it. There is a right of repair law passed by Congress. It would be illegal to do so.
Just to clarify, Harley is being told to change their warranty to comply with the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. Right to repair is a whole different, but related, issue.
Very closely related- because they're saying that just using non- proprietary parts is voiding the warranty. It's another type of monopolistic trade practice, similar right to repair..
Really any company that engages in these practices is no friend of thier consumer- so they should just be avoided completely/ boycotted until they stop..
@@aaronhumphrey2009 consumers are too dumb for avoiding/boycotting or it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. I've come to see consumer protection laws as protecting me from the poor choices of other consumers. That is, the bulk of buyers are needed to achieve large scale production and reasonable production cost, the protection laws are needed to prevent those same buyers from completely ruining those products. There is a counter argument however that allowed to freely evolve this middle of the road market would split to provide two options, terrible and good. Which is reasonable, but I have doubts about there being a large enough fraction of the market above the dividing line. But at the same time allowing the lower side to nose dive may push some of those those in the middle to the upper side. (This may be why there were more good quality products in the pre-consumer protection era. Even accounting for survivor bias.)
It's not different at all. Magnuson Moss says you have a right to repair your own device or have a third party repair it without voiding the warranty. Many companies' warranties illegally say you don't. Notice the phrase 'right to repair' in there. It's not the only right to repair issue right now, but it is a big one.
@@chitlitlah If you look into the right to repair movement it has to do with factors other than warranty. It has to do with third parties inability to obtain parts and schematics to perform repairs, the inability to ship aftermarket parts into the country, the inability to sell aftermarket parts, and companies suing small repair shops who perform repair work without "permission" from the manufacturer, though the permission is also stated as "authorization" which is only granted to dealers of that product.
@@chitlitlah most of the recent "right to repair" complaints have centered around manufacturers that employ technological measures to prevent a third party repair from working properly, totally bypassing the legal considerations of the warranty. They make it impossible to repair it yourself, even when it is beyond the duration of the warranty.
They use software to enforce their restrictions, rather than voiding a warranty, avoiding the letter of the M-M Act law, while breaking the spirit of it.
👏👏👏👏 I'm a huge fan of the right to repair. Corporations in general have been able to get away with a tremendous amount of blatantly anti-competitive acts for decades. We also have a HUGE problem with corporate conglomeration and a severe lack anti-trust action.
I always like the Stanley brothers, who made the Stanly Steamer motor car. In addition to not selling on credit, they also said "Hey, if you want a written warranty, buy a Ford. If something we made breaks and it's our fault, we'll fix it. Period." That was true, without time limit or cost limit to repair or replace. In one case, the brothers replaced a two year old car with a new car of the same type.
And now they just clean rugs.🥲
Had a Ford dealer try this crap on me. Bought F150 new. 6 mos later, battery is utterly and completely dead overnight. FIRST question they asked when I called the dealer I had bought it from was "What modifications have you made to the truck?" They knew I own a very heavily modified Jeep. They advised that I would have to pay well over $100 diagnostic fee, pay to tow the truck to them, and pay for a new battery. Their reason? I had a fiberglass camper top installed, but not by them. That was LITERALLY the only "change" or modification to that truck. They tried to tell me I had voided my warranty. They told the tow truck driver he would have to disconnect the transmission and drivetrain (4x4) before towing as we couldn't shift the transmission to neutral. Then I would have to pay for them to reconnect it. Looking at a minimum of a few hundred $.
Nope.
Jumper cables to provide power for the brake safety switch, shifted to neutral, up on the truck and drove PAST that dealer to another one that said "We're sorry, you got a bad battery. We replaced it under warranty. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience this caused." No $ out of my pocket, even for towing.
That first dealer also tried to weasel out of performing a TSB for transmission work by saying it was a "sealed" transmission and thus could never be worked on, AND the reason the transmission shifted roughly and took so long to shift was "You're over filling the fuel tank".
Seriously, they really did say that. They tried to tell me there is a "sensor" in the fuel tank neck that cannot get wet.
When I required them to explain what this sensor did, point out to me its location in the filler neck, how it would effect transmission shifting, and how one is supposed to fuel the vehicle via the ONLY fueling access point without said fuel making contact with this mysterious sensor placed directly in the path of the fuel but that also could not get fuel on it... they had no answers.
Always act like you know less than you do when dealing with these charlatans. Ask them to explain things that you already understand.
That's one way to spot the liars and hucksters.
Perhaps Ford corporate might be interested regarding how that dealer treats their customers.
Or perhaps they don't care either.
Worth a try.
@@johanvangelderen6715 I tried. Got the classic runaround. Eventually ended up in email purgatory. No response.
@@bradb7060
Someday you or a friend will know which dealer deserves your business.
Also which one to boycott forever.
Years ago my father had a chevy truck with one of those ill fated convertion diesel engines in it. On his way from Michigan to Florida, it blew out a head gasket and valve. He had it towed to the local Chevy dealer. Where he waited three days for it to be repaired. He got fifteen miles out of that town, when the whole side of the engine blew out, from a ingested shop rag, that the mechanic had left in it. Chevy tried declining the warranty because it wasn't a defect, the dealer didn't want to take the blame either. Fortunately my father knew somebody higher up at GM and had a new engine delivered asap. All told he ended up putting four different engines in that truck before he sold it about four years later .
It's not "if your Harley breaks down" but "when". It's a sure thing It will.
That is such a load of crap. I’ve been a Harley tech for twenty years and they aren’t really that bad. Do some break down, yes they do. Just like honda and Toyota’s do to. I find more issues because of poor installs by lousy techs and by Johnny at home doing his own work, then I do with bikes actually breaking. You find out customers mess with their bikes and break something and when they bring the bike in the customer says “I just found it this way.” I don’t mind people working in their own things because it’s theirs but don’t cry to me when you pay a lot more for diag because what happen can’t happen unless it was messed with. When you are told they didn’t touch it, you go through the normal diag process but when I know you touched something it will cut down on time which cuts down on what you pay
@@anitabonghit266 I've owned my 2001 Heritage Softail since 2009, the only thing I've replaced (excluding routine maintenance) is the ignition switch. I'm satisfied with mine.
Harley Davidson made of tin,
Ride em out,
Push em in.
As an automotive tech I have to explain this to people all the time. Clearly Steve explained it quite well there at the end.
On a side note I would not recommend a K&N air filter. It is not particularly likely to cause any major problems but the level of filtration is quite less thorough than a normal air filter (I would go with wix or the high-end Purolator)
Not with a factory warranty anyway. It will indeed provide better flow but along with it more small particulates.
Project Farm has a fairly decent video where he tests different air filters and the airborne particles.
Also the oil that you coat the filter with can cause some minor issues with some mass air flow sensors. Basically they'll get slathered in oil and need to be cleaned.
Yep, K&N don't filter as well as regular paper filters until they are dirty. And you are right that over oiling them can screw up MAF sensors. For what they cost I never saw a good reason to get a cleanable filter for car/truck. Dirtbikes have multilayer foam filters that get oiled, but they also go much shorter times between service.
The FTC also needs to go after bogus parts dealers if they are going to do this. I think that this is a good step, but they also need to crack down on bullshit add ons that do nothing or, even worse, actually cause harm.
I have used K&N air filters, and they work just fine. Keep 'em clean, and they work just fine.
Not everybody makes this distinction, but it’s important to distinguish between right-to-repair and ease-of-upgrades. Add-ons that can negatively affect the original equipment could void the warranty in some cases and I have nothing wrong with that. However, it’s a different matter they are unrelated to a warrantied repair.
And is the original or replacement part made poorly by children in a slave-state expansionist dictatorship sponsoring regimes promising to destroy you, as they have also been planning/trying since the 1950s Korean War..
Ben peeking over RES IPSA plate, Steve's LHS high
Maybe this is the start of the opening of the eyes to all those that oppose our right to completely own products and bust monopolies who try and trap consumers.
"If your new Harley breaks down..."
With a 25 percent catastrophic failure rate, as self reported by HD, a minor breakdown is practically a given.
This is a fine baby step for the FTC. Hoping that Congress would address CAF and RtR is just a dream. Too many times manufacturers will deny your warranty because you did XYZ. The onus is on the manufacturer to prove that XYZ caused your current issue as a basis for denying your warranty. Consumers too often just accept this as they were not informed of the MMWA. Stickers over fasteners saying void if removed are also an illegal misinformation annoyance.
Motorcycle warranty is always void if you have any work done anywhere but the dealer.. Not just Harley Davidson.. When I buy a new motorcycle, it has no warranty because I do my own service so incompetent dealership mechanics don't do irreparable damage to my bikes.
Evidently not
That's stupid.
But warranty is free work so......
@@richterman3962 sometimes, dealerships & private repair shops, charge too much $, break parts, complete shoddy work. It happens. If you've had new tires installed, for example, & later found cross threaded lug nuts you should understand his point. Some of us can do every repair needed to our vehicles in our own garage if we so choose. Not stupid, you obviously can't do what we can.
@@richterman3962 says the guy who can't even inflate their own tires. Cool out and accept your role as a beta male.
Thats illegal actually
Not bad. Now about the fine!
I'm guessing the rear end was damaged by the massive horsepower upgrade of the K&N Air filter! 🤣
I can see manufacturers now going to great lengths to ensure their own parts are difficult to replicate, forcing others to struggle to make pattern parts.
John Deere already does that, parts have soft ware code which must be entered on the machines computer in order for it to function.
Car manufacturers have been putting their names on parts like headlight assemblies. They don't give permission to aftermarket manufacturers to replicate that so if you repair with a non OEM part it won't look the same.
Next we will see them dissolve warrantees and incorporate "Service Contracts" that hold you to using their services and parts only.
hope so cause what happens in yank land Happens here in the UK next
@@bryansmith1920 you hope so? Did you read the whole sentence?
I had an 1987 Mercedes 420 SEL. In 2010, I took it to get a dealership to get a recall related to the cruise control addressed. While it was there, some very mechanic just started doing other stuff and putting it on a bill. One of the things he did was put power steering fluid in. Except, it didn't take power steering fluid. It said in huge letter letters on the reservoir that it took ATF, and not power steering fluid, and it also said so in the owner manual. He tried to tell me it took some kind of special Mercedes power steering fluid.
Not all heroes wear capes. Some wear t-shirts and reading glasses.
Too few wear robes.
I love the deal with a label that says warranty void if removed. That's illegal. I peeled that label off one of the screws on my laptop when I wanted to add a second SSD. I had a problem with the laptop while still within the warranty two months after the second SSD. Use of those labels is deceptive. I informed him that it is against the law.
At 9:15 you mention K&N air filters.
The common warranty refusal with K&N filter was failed MAF sensors. The dealers would point to a little bit of oil on the sensor part of the failed MAF sensor and tell people, "See! The oil from the filter has damaged the sensor and you have voided the warranty." Funny thing is that a common way that the MAF sensors would fail is by cracking and the small quantity of internal oil that the sensor contains would leak and be visible.
Had a great tour of K&N and they explained that they had gone after any dealer that did this in a big way. If you let them know and provide them with the part that a dealer claims was damaged by a K&N filter, they will have it tested with a mass spectrometer to show that the oil is not from the filter but instead is from the inside of the sensor itself. They will also go after the dealer to honor the warranty. They reported that they had never run across a cased of a failed MAF where the oil on the sensor wasn't from the sensor.
They said that the public outcry of people who had their warranty repairs denied (and didn't enlist K&N's help) had hurt their business and had spawned the rumor that K&N filters were damaging.
BTW - Their test facilities and the type of test particulates they use is really impressive. They throw the whole book at their tests. They filter out markedly more then a standard paper filter.
My CVO came stock and hardly sells a "gauze and oil" filter...LOL...
I worked in an auto shop for a couple years and saw many k&n filters installed...and the thing I noticed is that on certain models of all makes would through a MAF code and when we would replace the MAF with OEM factory or aftermarket it would kick that code back on immediately...change the k&n out for a stock filter and the code would go away...this was usually on non-performance oriented vehicles so a performance oriented MAF was not available to go with the K&N...customer and I got to talking and decided to experiment with the cheap aftermarket and with slight tweaks to the shields that on the inside of the MAF he got to keep his K&N and I got to clear the MAF code out for good
Wrong doesn't work that way bubby and this very bad example with K&N air filter not unless you're just that stupid and pour a whole bottle oil on it, I used K&N air filter 40+ year and do auto mechanics and never seen one fail your myth is hog wash.
My grandfather always washed his ring air filters. I remember him hanging the washed one on the clothes line. He just swapped em every so often. He never owned a K&N.
Also, air filter for my truck runs $10-15, K&N, last time I checked years ago, was over $70. It’s hard to clean one enough to save money, at least in my truck, lol
I've been using a K&N air filter in my 07 Saab since it was new. I've cleaned it, per K&N guidelines, every 50K miles. The car now has 176k miles on it.
The reason why K&N filters have been frowned on is that after cleaning and oiling of the filter.. oil residue tends to get all over the MassAir Sensor and the Intake Temperature Sensor which some vehicles have both of them inside the air Intake duct right after the air cleaner housing where the filter sets.. the oily residue can destroy those sensors.. Mass Air Sensors have heating elements that is used to calculate the incoming amount of air crossing them.. then measuring the amount of current/voltage needed to keep it at the set temperature then utilizing an algorithm inside the P.C.M to measure how long the fuel injectors stay open, how fast it opens etc to inject fuel.. in addition to other things like ignition timing etc.. in a worst case scenario.. that would not only cost more fuel consumption and poor performance, (engine stalling etc).. it COULD cause excessive pre-ignition/detonation and cause internal engine damage to the pistons, piston rings, valves, crank and/or rod bearings etc.. which will require engine removal and rebuilding.. not to even mention the potential destruction of the catalytic converters which can also be QUITE expensive to replace as they aren't able to be rebuilt. I use them on my 69 SS Chevelle (which has no P.C.M or catalytic converters).. and my two 86 GT Mustangs (which are primitive electronically by today's technological standpoint).. and have great results.. but I'd be cautious with using them in later model vehicles. Just saying..
@@pseudosmith9945 Great reply, thank you.
In addition, the stock air filter will flow more air than the engine will ever demand. It will still do so when old and partially filled with contaminants, as it is designed to continue to flow enough air between normal service intervals. Only reasons to 'upgrade' are if the engine has been modified and requires greater airflow, or for aesthetic reasons. K&N do tend to have bigger 'holes' in the filtering medium, so there's always the possibility of larger contaminants getting through. The oil catches some airborne stuff, but anything likely to do damage is also likely to not get caught by an oily film. In general driving areas, there should be no issues, as attested to by high mileage owners, but the risk in desert areas is higher. The right to repair at least gives us choice.
@@pseudosmith9945 I bought the car new, put the K&N in at about 2600 miles and I have always maintained it. I've never had an issue with any of the sensors. When I clean and oil the filter I don't over oil it.
@@nigelcox1451 all correct and valid points.. was about to add some of those very remarks.. but then got to thinking that it'll likely turn into a book on here.. lol.. there are so many causal effects that can result from even the slightest perceived "upgrade".. there are always consequences.. some good and some bad.. the trick is to know how something truly functions before any changes and when upgrading anything thinking "Is the juice worth the squeeze"... lol
@@nigelcox1451 my car is tuned, but stock otherwise. I got slightly better fuel mileage after installing the K&N filter, but that could be because the first 2500 miles were put on it in Europe, where I broke every new car break in rule there is. But it's got 176k miles on it and its still got most of the factory installed parts. I had to replace the AC condenser about 2 years ago, but the water pump, power steering pump, alternator and a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting are all original. Hell, I'm still on the original clutch!
Can you imagine having a generator way out in the bush and then having to cart it all of the way back several hours to the nearest dealership? Imagine having a construction site down for a day just in transit time for something simple. These are not people who care about their customers.
I do remember a few years ago when I was working at a Ford dealership we were told to deny warranty coverage on failed Mass air flow sensors if the vehicle was equipped with a K&N filter. Their claim was that the customer would use excessive oil on the filter after cleaning and the oil would ruin the sensor.
Gatta love that k&n straight up has certifications for thier air filters.
I'm one of the old guys on several motorcycle boards. There are several, mostly newer riders that believe they must return to the Dealer for everything.
Some of it is their own misunderstanding.
MOST of it is the Dealer lying to them about returning for parts, service and accessories - where they really can make a lot of money.
Read your owner's manuals required service interval chart. They 'kind of' make it sound like some things must be done at the Dealer.
"You used a non-Harley spark plug..."
This sort of this is very common with computer repairs. The thing is, if you know what you are dealing with, a lot of the sparks are exactly the same thing. I don't mean similar, I mean exactly the same. Last year I bought a new laptop. I got a Lenovo Ideapad Flex 14 with Ryzen APU. APU's combine both graphics and CPU in the same chip, and because of that they have no dedicated graphics memory (VRAM), and they share the system RAM with the CPU. Knowing this I wanted to immediately upgrade the 16gb to 24gb to free up memory of my graphics in case I want to play some games. So before buying it I contacted Lenovo customer service and asked them if this particular set of Crucial RAM modules would be compatible. They responding saying I am not allowed to install it because I will void the warranty. After I got the laptop, I opened it up, and the RAM inside was the exact same model that I had been looking at. There are 3 main companies that make RAM chips, those are SK Hynix, Samsung, and TSMC. There are more companies than install those chips to PCB boards for sale, such as Crucial, Kingston, etc. And even more rebranded consumer parts from those. But they are all SK Hynix, Samsung, or TSMC.
There are 2 main companies that make power supplies for desktop computers, Seasonic and Great Wall. You might buy an HP tower, one day it doesn't turn on so you take it to a local repair shop. Easy fix, they replace the power supply. Say a year later it has a motherboard failure and the local shop doesn't do those, so you call up HP to use the warranty... They refuse to fix it because you changed the power supply so it's your fault. Well that's nonsense because the HP power supply and the Corsair one that the local shop installed are both Seasonic 450w 80+ Bronze units, just rebranded. They might even have the exact same model number, it's just that one has a Corsair sticker and one has an HP sticker. I see stuff like this all the time. Cell phone screens are the same way. They say it had to be fixed at the factory because you have to use their screen and not some random generic one. Their own damn screen is a random generic one. It's either a rebranded Samsung display, or a rebranded LG display. And if it's not one of those, it's gutter trash. So they should be thanking me if I install a Samsung display in place of the random piece of trash they used. It's making their phone look better than it is.
Bosch and NGK are the good spark plugs Champion and Harley Davidson spark plugs Auto lights suck.
@@stewartmckinley7058 Pretty much everything from Bosch is high quality.
@@JohnPlissken NGK just as good but there is a lot of junk for sale
I read that in Iraq and Afghanistan when military generators failed in the field technicians were not allowed to repair them because of the warranties. Leaving many forward units without a generator for weeks.
OMG!
Definitely a good step, but the guvmint (as usual) has created confusion with the DMCA. Tech companies use it to dodge anti-tying.
Back in the 1990s I worked for a large rock quarry / asphalt plant contractor. The company bought large earthmoving equipment from Caterpillar. Caterpillar insisted that only Caterpillar filters be used on the equipment. The company used Cat filters for a long time,which are much more expensive.I showed the shop foreman the Magnuson-Moss act that was printed on the last page of the Napa filter interchange catalog. Not long after that we switched to Napa filters which meet the standards of SAE and the company saved a lot of $ not buying Caterpillar filters.
I've heard of shops denying warranty repairs due to unrelated parts. I've even heard them makes stuff up like a blown fuse causing the fuel pump to go bad. Not a failed still making contact fuse, a blown out as designed fuse. The logic was that it caused a surge and momentarily got past the fuse before it could trip. That's obvious speculation.
A fuse is just a strip of inert, conducting metal, essentially a wire that melts if too much current goes through it. There is no was a fuse can cause a surge in either voltage or current.
@@andrewalexander9492 i worded that wrong, the fuse didn't react quickly enough to protect the circuit. Even still I don't know if a power surge would damage a fuel pump.
@@HH-ru4bj Ok, even still, that excuse is on pretty shaky grounds. The fuel pump should work just fine hardwired through with no fuse. If the pump was damaged by an over- current event, then there is an underlying problem that ain’t the fuse. Either the pump was defective and created the over current problem, or the power supply was defective and created the overcurrent through an abnormally high voltage. Even if you had a faster blowing fuse that blew before the pump was damaged, there’s still a problem in either the electrical system or the fuel pump itself.
@@andrewalexander9492 well yes that's logical. Something still caused that fuse to blow, and most would see the fuse as a symptom and not the cause. More likely I would think that it was the load that failed with a short circuit that allowed an out of spec current demand.
@@HH-ru4bj Yeah, I'd agree that the most likely cause would be a short or something in the load, but I have seen power supply malfunctions whcih create problems also. I had an alternator go out in an airplane and it's last dying gesture was to give out a huge voltage spike, whcih blew out some capacitors and created some smoke.
Love the Intruder shirt. Saw Gary in Santa Cruz back in April, show was awesome. Considering going again in San Francisco this coming September .
Steve, your channel has rapidly become one of my favorites. I am almost 71 yo, and I can tell you that Capitalism no longer means what it did when I was a young man. Indeed, my father wouldn’t have even recognized what is going on today.
Furthermore, it is obvious to me why so many are turning to Socialism in this once-proud land. Ultra Capitalists have brought this situation upon themselves and deserve a lot of Very Hard Knocks lest capitalism becomes the New Slavery.
Before I go, my first bike was a so-called ‘Harley Trail Bike”, the ultimate misnomer. That thing was so heavy that my buddies all called it a Harley Fergusson.
It's socialism for the big guys. Reagan placed tariffs on non-American motorcycle companies to help HD, instead of letting them compete. Big companies get government aid, while any help the citizenry asks for is responded with "not enough money."
We purchased a used car years ago (Saturn) for our daughter from a dealership in our area. When it needed a new radiator we went to that dealership to get a genuine GM radiator. I think I asked service writer if this would be a Genuine GM part when writing up the estimate (not sure, but it was on my mind when I went in) I was waiting for the car. When they were done, I asked you did put in a genuine GM radiator, he said no we thought we would save you money. I raised a stink "why the hell do you think I brought the car to the dealership to get the radiator replaced? I have a wonderful mechanic that I could have taken it to. A few weeks after the radiator blew and took out the head of the engine. Dealership would not do anything, the shop that provided the radiator would not do anything. So we tried JB Weld to fix it, nothing so we ended up donating it to a local charity for parts. I am happy to report the dealership is out of business, as well as the parts store that supplied the radiator. My husband and I know the local GM rep husband was friends with family for years, I am sure we told him about this also (around time when GM was restructuring, after gov't bailout). LESSON TO DEALERSHIPS; DO NOT F WITH YOUR CUSTOMERS, YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF OUT OF BUSINESS REAL FAST, WORD OF MOUTH WILL KILL YOUR BUSINESS.
I know people who had piles of aftermarket parts in boxes waiting for warranty expiration to be put on. Almost to the point it was a whole other bike in boxes. Now we can modify as soon as we buy our bikes. Huge win for right to repair efforts
I know bikers that go to the dealership for every single small service and oil change until their warranty is up, not because oil changes are under the warranty, but because they are afraid anything else will void their warranty with the manufacturer. I rode with a guy who refused to patch a nail hole in his tire, insisting it be towed to a licensed dealership for service.
come to think of it this must have been part of how HD was able to establish a *liscensed first party* "aftermarket" parts empire. Screamin Eagle, Vance and Hines, etc.They're not stock parts but they were sold by and installed by a harley dealer so they probably don't void your warranty
Since 1974 I have owned 7 new motorcycles. The idea that I wouldn’t do my own maintenance is ludicrous and un-American
Louis Rossmann. Right to repair yt channel.
He has been on Louis's channel before.
3700 W Juneau Ave, Milwaukee WI, the countless typewriters I repaired in the 1980's at that facility. Memories. Harley has not been Harley for a very long time, just a name today. Even in the 1980's it was not Harley but much closer then what it is today. We absolutely need the right to repair anything.
Ben is sticking up from the top of the RES IPSA tag
Wow! There are so many people who own cars that think they have to take it to the dealership for everything or else their warranty is voided. I have had this discussion with people for years. We never did it, because we have a repair shop for our car that we have liked for 30 years.
Damn Steve I knew you was a car guy but your lingo tells me you know an awful lot about the actual mechanics have you picked it up as an enthusiast or through your lemon law cases either way it’s refreshing to see someone who has a complete understanding of they’re field from all aspects I’ve followed you for awhile now and thank you
I believe he's written at least one car book.
Glad I found 2 Honda ,vtx, 1800 cc cruisers, and a 2013 , 1900 cc Yamaha Raider, for way less than ONE comparable Harley. Cheap to run, and own, and easy to work on, and find info. Maybe one day, I will be rich enough to be in the Harley league.
I'm really glad to see others supporting Right To Repair :)
Live it up. It'll be gone in 10 years.
The KN filter conundrum wasn't the filter itself, is that folks were over oiling them, and fouling mass airflow sensors, and temp sensors, causing engine performance problems, due to the excess oil applied to the filter.
Some sensors can not be cleaned due to their construction.
A big one that set a precedent was Fram, and their early Ford 6.7 diesel air filters, designed in such a way that they were being sucked into the intake plenum and destroying turbos, Fram neglected to incorporate the function of the foam insert before the filter and caused massive restriction.
Took my Murano to a top rated repair shop with a great reputation because it was already out of warranty. They used third party parts and made everything worse. After multiple visits back and forth, having the shop contact the Nissan repair shop for assistance, they finally took their parts off and had me go back to the dealer to get it done correctly with Nissan parts.
Obviously their "great reputation" was fake news.
Chrysler products can be that way too, Dad ran across that back in the 60’s and tends to watch the South Main channel, who has found the same with modern Chrysler/FCA products too.
That said, I do have a K&N filter and MSD coils on the 3.6l in my daily without issues, but have had somebody without a Chrysler product tell me not to get that K&N for it because the oil gets on the MAF sensor and can ruin them…….I’ve owned 5 Mopars, only 1 I never got around to putting a K&N on and none of them have had a MAF sensor.
Love the Shirt! As someone who fixes my own cars, the resistance to right to repair by most companies makes me afraid to invest in a newer vehicle.
Fleet manager for 10 years and a million miles. Anyone who has ever seen a K&N filter and a normal one knows that the pore size is many times greater than the correct filter. That's why it produces more power until it destroys the engine much faster than using the proper filter because a larger pore means far more and far larger contaminates get through. I've been shocked by how fast they can destroy engines. Repeatedly. I must admit they're great for their intended purpose which is racing where you want maximum power at the cost of minimum rebuild interval.
Years ago a friend of mine bought a new Mustang with the new oil Ford used. At first oil change, he was going to do it himself. Ford dealer told him he had to use only Ford oil. When he told the service manager the oil was then FREE under M-M Act, the s.m. changed his tune.
the right to repair also includes you being able to do your own repair.
you buy a westinghouse generator and the starter motor fails you should buy the replacement part and fix it the generator.
you buy a motorcycle and tire blows you should be able to buy a new tire and do the work yourself.
The Man, the Myth, the Lunched! Thank you Mr Lehto. You do good work 😎
Been playing the spot "Ben" game, don't know how you all do it.😆
About time. This has been a sticking point for a lot of folks for a long time. I prefer to do my own wrenching on my Harley and GoldWing. The quality of my own work seems to be better than what I have experienced in a shop, BUT when I do need to take it to a shop, I usually go to a local Indy shop and I am all over what needs to be done and how it will be done.
The first companies that come to mind are John Deere, Tesla and Apple.
American companies leading the ways in taking advantage of Americans
I'm looking at your RUclips name...
@@wesss9353 Nothing to do with the mower company. We were building race cars and using RUclips to send videos of the launches across the country to the chassis guys to review. They said not to use the company's name or my real name. I needed one in seconds and just never changed it.
I ran into a situation a couple years ago where the manufacturer deliberately hampered my ability to effect my own repairs. I had a 2009 Jeep Compass with the 5 speed manual transmission that I bought used from the dealership. A week after I bought it, I started getting a check engine light, which my code reader determined was a fault in the cooling fan relay. I took it back to the dealer for diagnosis, just in case it was an issue with the relay itself, or the fan. Turned out to be the relay. No problem, right?
Wrong.
When I pulled out the relay, it was a tiny little thing about 1"long x 1/2" wide with 5 skinny pins. Every single aftermarket parts retailer that I went to, as well as every online supplier of Jeep parts that I searched on, came back with a standard Bosch 5 pin relay - you know the type, a black plastic cube about 1"x1"x1" that is available everywhere for $5 - $10. And it was the wrong part. The stock, factory installed parts were completely different from what the aftermarket suppliers had been told was the correct part. When I asked at the dealership however, the parts guy came back in 5 minutes with a relay that matched what was in my Jeep. For 6 times the price of the standard relay. Every parts counter used the same VIN to find the correct part. Why was the dealership the only one that was able to come up with the correct item?
I went to Princess Auto and bought a new relay for $9, then had a licensed mechanic friend solder in new wiring and plugin for the low price of an extra large steeped tea double double from Tim Hortons. He also changed the starter relay at the same time, as its pins were corroding away as well. If anything happened down the road, I wouldn't be a hostage to having my car towed to a dealership to find the correct relay, that I might have otherwise been able to get at a local general store.
Only idiots but a Jeep Compass and it's only sensible to prevent them from making the car more shit than it is .
I've seen it when somebody use an unnamed air filter the filter was so thin it ended with a hole in it, and it sucked a bug or a very small leaf or feather and landed on or in the mass air flow sensor and the car or truck would not run or run really rough
Are you sure that wasn't the one where mouse made a nest in the air cleaner housing and chewed a hole in the filter? South Main Auto had one like tat.
@@machintelligence yes i have seen that too some squirrels too
Unlawful warranties: my last ink-jet printer stated their warranty was void if I used off-brand ink. So I bought a color laser printer and it has been amazing for my needs: less costly and more reliable by far.
I always wondered why ford dealers would give seatbelt extenders away for free at the customers request but if they are not comfortable with an aftermarket safety restraint it makes sense.
I have been an Outdoor Power Equipment Technician for almost 30 years, as well as a Briggs & Stratton Master Service Technician and Stihl Master Technician. I know that certain parts will void warranty, especially on Briggs engines. Example, a non-approved air filter for the old B&S Classic engines will void the warranty because the filter is insufficient and will allow dirt into the engine causing damage. There are several aftermarket parts that ARE approved, and will not void warranty (Stens parts for one). So customers need to be mindful of which aftermarket parts they get if they want to do their own service. The unfortunate thing is that most regular people don't know which is approved and which is not, heck, most people don't even know there is such a rule in effect, they just see the part hanging on the wall at a big box store, the bubble pack says it fits, the store is selling it, so it must be OK right? Wrong. It's been a problem for a very long time. You mention the K&N filters. On My Honda Valkyrie, and APPROVED K&N filter is on it. I tried both OEM and the K&N, K&N is better for sure. Obviously a 20 year old bike is no longer under warranty, but the point remains that the K&N air filter is approved for that motorcycle, so it would not have voided the warranty. Say it was under warranty, just for the sake of argument, and I stuck a cheapo paper piece of crap air filter I got from Wish on the bike, rode it 1000 miles then the rings are suddenly worn out. Well, nope, not going to be covered by warranty because that A/F is not approved. I've even had customers try to pull the wool over on us by coming in to buy the right air filter, then 2 weeks later bringing it in to say the machine is ruined. We look in the airbox and can see that they were running the machine without an air filter because it is full of dirt, pretty obvious. So, the airbox is full of dirt, but there is a brand new unused OEM air filter in it.... That's not possible, so no, no warranty, we can tell. Tecumseh engines were even equipped with governor gears that changes color if the engine was run low on oil, because there was a problem with people running them out of oil, then filling them up with oil and trying to claim warranty. Customers try to scam too, make no mistake.
11:30 a K& N CAN and i have personally recently seen a K&N air filter interfere with the operation of a mass air sensor. The filter had a bit too much oil in it and coated the mass air element, causing the computer to see less air, causing a lean condition. It ran poorly and acted like a fuel pump failing fuel starvation issue.
Actually K&N has successfully refuted every instance of this claim where the "damaged" MAF was provided to them. When they test them with a mass spectrometer the "fouling oil" has always turned out to be a leak of the oil contained inside the sensor itself. K&N will defend anyone who has a warranty refusal if they can get the part for testing.
They do admit that if someone massively over oiled a filter that they could foresee possible issues but they have never seen it happen in an actual warranty case.
@@BorkToThe3rd don't argue theories against mechanics with actual experience.
@@BorkToThe3rd I don't use K&N. They allow dirt thru the filter which causes engines to wear faster.
If a dealer sees dirt in the intake and you bring your car/motorcycle in for service and the dirt is the cause, they will deny that claim.
Hog wash beside all you need sensor cleaner and if someone massively over oiled a filter that they could be an issue but my 40 years of fixing car and truck I never seen that happen.
@@BorkToThe3rd as I stated, I have seen said issue. As an independent shop tech I see things that the DIY like you doesn't. Before you spout company rhetoric, ask questions. The correct question IS: who applied the oil? Answer: the guy that owned the car. I see DIY dumbasses do stupid stuff on the daily. You have learned NOTHING from watching this channel. A simple use of MAF cleaner and a correct cleaning of filter solved the problem. Finally, I have never seen in my 20+ year career as a tech seen a MAF with oil as a part of the sensor, so part number please? Year make model engine size of this oily unicorn please? EDIT: where is this study published?
WHAT ABOUT JOHN DEERE?
@4:20 I understand your point, that in general terms we tend to use automobile for four wheeled self powered vehicles, and motorcycles for two wheeled self powered vehicles. Your original statement is correct, if not fitting with these general usages for the words. Motorcycles are self propelled as they use their own motor and do not use something external, like a horse. Motorcycles are also mobile, which is fortunate as their purpose is conveyance. Self propelled mobile machines could all rightly be called automobiles even though we don't usually use the words this way.
It is Awful... I tried to compete with the cops in civil asset forfeiture and now I am in Jail!
They don't like the Competition either! I even offered to share with them! They just took it all!
Gotta shrink the govt.
Wrong video.
@@MarcosElMalo2 I don't think you understood the Point of the comment. It is OK!
@@mikelarry2602 Absolutely! The Federal Government has become Tyrannical. I think the people can better control their State Gov. when the Fed is a lot smaller.
@@MarsMan1 They all need to be small. It is hard to hold govt accountable. At least with companies you don't like them you just stop buying their product. The govt stop paying taxes and see what happens.
a lot of companies do a warranty that states
you must use the dealer for the first 10 oil changes or for the first 50K miles, or something like that or void warranty
Back in the 70's when harley davidson had AMF on the gas tank they voided warranty if you removed even the AMF from the tank. They wonder why they are in the position they're in now ! Then in 95 I bought another brand new bike, , if sputtered and backfired when taking off from a stop, I brought it back to harley and they rejetted it and charged me for it because now it wasn't under warranty cause it wasn't emissions legal. I tried to argue my point that they should be able to make bike drivable and emissions legal. This was in 1995 and I had been riding since the 60s they said I needed to learn how to ride, I reverted back to when AMF owned them and said Adios Mother Fuckers ! I ended up putting an S&S on it and runs excellent. I've never bought a new Harley since. Plenty of under 5k miles bikes for sale for cheap. Harley wonders how they got to where they are today, in the SHITTER !
Steve the mass air flow is basic. It reads temp of the sensor, which is cooled by the airflow over it. The computer take those values to determine cfm and then adds fuel accordingly. ✌️
Ben behind the RES IPSA plate.
K&N air filters also have another problem for some vehicles. If they have to oil the filter, the oil can contaminate a sensor causing it to read wrong.
Ben on an away trip visiting Illinois plate
There is a company called Nvidia out of California that manufactures electronic devices. In 2013 I purchased a device called a Shield (TV Streamer) for a little over $400, in 2019 the device was damaged by a lightning strike and was now in need of repair, this is when I found out that the manufacture doesn't even have a repair facility and will not provide parts or even drawings to local repair shops so that it can be repaired. If you want a working Nvidia Shield you have to buy a new one. If this is not a violation of the right to repair then there is no such thing. The feds need to go after these people!!!
K&N air filters can cause issues, but usually due to improper use. They must be coated with oil to collect dust from the intake air. Excessive oil can be sucked out of the filter, and getting that oil on the Mass Air Flow sensor can cause incorrect readings or MAF sensor failure.
I was told that the K&N air filters were coated with some sort of oil to increase their performance and unfortunately fouled the mass air flow sensor.
I’ve been told that too when mentioning I had one on order for my daily. luckily I’ve yet to own a car with a MAF!
When I worked at GM dealerships, any driveline failure more than a fluid leak required a photograph of the scan tool displaying the vehicle calibration data screen. Any change in the programming voided the driveline warranty. This was most common in trucks. One guy came in with a rod knock with less than 10,000 miles. He had the correct calibration, but the history showed the truck had been reprogrammed with an aftermarket calibration, then reprogrammed to the original before bringing in for the rod knock. No warranty.
Funny I just saw an TSB yesterday that was talking about over oiled aftermarket air filters causing a poor running/drivability issue because the excess oil could end up getting on the MAF sensor causing it to give erroneous readings. Fix was replace filter and clean the sensor.
Such great information !! As a small business owner in the Motorcycle arena I am affected greatly. Sharing to my FB page! Thank you Steve! ~Dominick (owner)
As a mechanic I don't like K&N. What I have observed many times is dirt that gets past these air filters. In many cases the foam seal that forms the edge of the filter is too soft. It collapses when the filter is installed and fails to seal the filter to the enclosure, allowing unfiltered air to bypass the filter. There is often a very light film of oil on the intake on the clean side of the filter, either from the oil used to treat the filter or from the engine. When removing these filters I have observed many times, significant quantities of dirt stuck to this oil on the clean side. This means that the air filter is not doing it's job. I have not observed this phenomenon in traditional "disposable" air filters. Note that in heavy equipment, disposable paper element filters get washed several times before being discarded.
I worked in a body shop a couple of years ago that was part of a Chevrolet dealership. For a while we were required by GM to hand customers with GM family of cars a paper that GM would not warranty any part that was attached/adjecent to any aftermarket part.
That paper mysteriously vanishwd at some point.
You may be missing the point on the aftermarket air filter deal. Certain air filters can cause issues with the mass airflow sensor. Sometimes they cause oil and debris to collect on the sensor wires and other times cause the airflow path to be altered over that sensor, causing load calculation errors in both cases. I’ve documented several cases where transmissions were damaged due to this. The engine, transmission, and even stability control all rely on proper load calculations, and if it’s skewed, problems can and do occur.
I know right most of these people don’t realize sensors work on parameters and when you change parts sometimes that changes other things but sensor is still working on stock parameters
There's a big misunderstanding when it comes to this subject. For instance, John Deere will not allow their customers to have access to the software used to diagnose problems. Let's say your tractor stops working and gives you an error code 43. Unless you have the software, you have no idea what error code 43 means. When the JD service dealer hooks up his laptop, it tells him that the engine oxygen sensor is bad. THEN you know what is needed to get your tractor running. You don't have to buy the sensor from JD but the chances of finding an aftermarket part may be slim. So you buy the OEM sensor and JD doesn't care who installs the sensor. But they just made money from the diagnosis and the spare part sale. The farmer does the actual work to replace the part. Farmers don't really care who sells the part. That's not their issue with JD. They want the software and JD will NOT release it. The solution is to sell the farmers the software on a license basis. The farmers will have to pay, for instance, a monthly or quarterly fee for the license. JD still makes money and controls the software, the farmers are happy because they can now diagnose their machines.
As in your example, you purchase a new motorcycle and they tell you that you must return for the first oil change or else void your warranty, if that first oil change is free of any cost to you, would that still violate the magnuson moss warranty act?
P.s. You Sir, are an outstanding RUclipsr. Thank you for providing the content, and your perspective on it, that you do.
He stated that in the video.
If you don't have to pay for the parts/service, then there is nothing to protect you from, except maybe bad parts and service.
@@DVankeuren I did catch that, however I'm more wondering that if the dealer service and manufacturer parts/materials are provided for free, does that mean they can void your warranty if you don't use them.
I installed a K&N air filter on a Ford F-150 I once had. It came with all the parts necessary to move the mass air flow sensor. Worked fine. Didn't improve performance or fuel mileage that I could tell or measure, but as noted could be cleaned and reused. Nice since I did take the truck off road regularly to bring my dirt bikes out to the desert or other trails to ride and that kicks up a lot of dust.
In addition to your mass air flow sensor example, I could also see manufacturers making a claim that the aftermarket air filter allows more particulates, and maybe even larger ones, to pass through it than the factory filter. But seems like they'd have to back that claim up with data from testing.
I once used a K&N filter. I stopped using it and went back to a paper filter after I noticed a buildup of fine dust on the MAF sensor screen.
@@brianleeper5737 Agreed. The trick that dirt bikes uses with the typical foam filter is the oil. The K&N needed to be properly oiled after cleaning in order to filter effectively.
@@RideGasGas This K&N was oiled from the factory, I never added any additional oil (they say it only needs to be re-oiled after cleaning it--it wasn't installed long enough to get dirty). And it still let dirt through.
@@brianleeper5737 I never experienced that problem. I guess it's one of those your results may vary situations. I will say that I stuck with the factory air filter when up replaced the truck with an F-250 diesel 4x4 version. Just wasn't worth the trouble for me.
@@RideGasGas I wouldn't have even noticed a problem with it if I hadn't run my finger across the MAF screen and found my finger covered with fine dust. Maybe that K&N wasn't oiled enough at the factory, maybe it was defective in a different way, don't know, never using one again, and it made zero difference as far as performance.
I LOVE how pervasive the whole "right to repair" topic is becoming. There are lots of people in the space but Louis Rossmann has REALLY done a LOT for this and I applaud him for it. If this is a new topic to you, dear reader, I highly recommend heading over to his channel and checking some of his vids on it...vids like the ones he made on the God awful one-wheel company Future Motion.
When I bought my truck, it came with 2 years of free routine maintenance. I will probably stop using them as my go-to for my next service as that time is up.