For me, I think that trans people (especially radically queer trans people) speak the language of gender-fuckery natively, while even the best of cis allies are learning as they go. If someone tells me their pronouns, my brain is using those pronouns. Whereas for my mom, who is an absolute Ride or Die ally, still slips up. Because in her head, she conjures the sentence in Cis, then translates to Trans. I'm into some fucky gender shit in sex. I would never tell a 100% cis person about it, because there's the inevitable subconscious idea that it has some deeper meaning about me faking my gender or something. There's the chance that that stuff spills into non-sex time, which is not okay. Whereas, if I told this to a queer partner, most would be cool and ask follow-up questions about who, what, when, where, and why this is ok for me.
This is so well said. As a queer cis person, it took me a long time and many slip ups with pronouns - I was absolutely "translating to trans" in the same way I translate English to Spanish as a non-fluent speaker. At this point I've spent enough time around trans people (and watching trans creators) that I find it a lot easier to just automatically get pronouns right etc. While I'll obviously never fully understand what it's like to not be cis, I think the way you worded this makes so much sense and I really appreciate your comment! PS I'm so glad your mom is such an awesome ally!
I'm cis but I also notice how to a lot of cis people basic things like respecting pronouns is actually hard?? Like some of them will slip up and then go "oh I'm sorry 🥺🥺 it's just, this pronoun stuff is so hard 😩" or stuff like "is he like an actual boy? Sorry I mean like is he a boy that's a girl? A girl-boy?" (Bitch why can't u just say trans it's one word ffs) or theyd be talking abt a trans guy and go "he.. she.. I'm actually not sure how should I refer to her" and like SHUT. T.F. UP. this stuff is so easy and obvious to me I literally can't see how someone else could not get it????? And I used to get so furious about these situations which I absolutely shouldn't have (since I'm cis) but I really thought they're all doing it for attention cuz there's no wayyyy they don't get it, and well I still think some of them (most of them) are but apparently there are people that are actually genuinely confused but well-meaning (still kinda blows my mind) and I should prob encourage them to learn rather than get mad at them-
@@veryfancypigeon My high school cis friend who broke up with her boyfriend for not telling her he's trans until like a month in and then came into school and told everyone it was her "girlfriend"... and everytime I glared at her when she misgendered him she'd say "it's confusing, okay?!?!" T.T
As a cis person it seems natural to me that trans people might want to be in relationships with other trans people if for no other reason than to be with someone who emotionally understands what it was like to grow up as trans. Forgive my ignorance but I'm actually surprised to learn that there is enough concern that it could be seen as something potentially problematic that this needs to be specifically argued against
I think some people make the mistake of thinking that trans folks who seek out other trans folks romantically or sexually do so because of fetishising the other trans person's genitals or other gender incongruent traits (which is something that cis people who are chasers do, in a way where they hyperfixate on specific body parts of their partner which may cause dysphoria or in a way that may invalidate the other person's gender). They think that trans people who seek out other trans people do so for the same reasons that cis chasers do. In reality, a lot of us trans folks are just exhausted and frustrated at having to constantly educate cis people and want to date other trans people who would understand our experience and relate to us. So you're right, I think that is the main reason why some trans people prefer dating other trans people. Being T4T can mean supporting each other's transition goals, understanding each other's dysphoria, understanding each other's lived experience. A lot of the time trans people are more mindful of their partner's dysphoria triggers than cis people tend to be, and they tend to check up more on what is okay and what isn't. As a trans person, I tend to date other trans people, though it's never actually been intentional on my part, it's just that the people that tend to gravitate towards me happen to be trans too a lot of the time. I'm not opposed to dating cis people, but the majority of cis people I met were uneducated on trans issues.
literally, it is such a unique and traumatizing experience in so many ways that cis-people often refuse to believe. and trans people often read trans people better, and respond in good ways. I have met cis-people who do but usually the majority of their friends are trans and that is why lol.
Yeah. For me, the idea of being in a t4t relationship really appeals, largely because then you don't have to teach your partner so much -- about being trans, and probably even undoing some biases under the surface along the way.
I don't think t4t is inherently fetish-y. In fact, fetishization is probably/definitely the vast minority. I like the idea of dating another trans guy, because I tend to feel infinitely more comfortable and validated around other trans people as opposed to cis people, and specifically cis guys. I wouldn't be opposed to dating a woman, cis or trans, or a non-binary person, but I definitely prefer guys, and cis men scare me a lot of the time. and I feel like most other t4t people would agree, if not for that exact reason but similar reasons. For me its the same reason I'd much rather date another autistic person, cause I feel like they'd understand me better and I wouldn't feel guilty for some of my "quirks." Unfortunately there's always gonna be fetish-y creepers in any community, just sucks that it's possible to find a chaser in your own community.
Holy shit I think I figured my romantic orientation after reading this comment like this is what I needed to hear and now everything makes so much sense
I'm a nonbinary lesbian and I naturally gravitate towards other trans people tbh. I'm currently in a t4t relationship with a trans girl and it just feels so much safer than any experiences with cis girls. She actually takes my dysphoria seriously and respects my name, pronouns, all of that. It's just so much more comfortable being with her for no reason other than we see eye to eye on very important things to me.
A person in my local community would always cough under her breath that I was a chaser whenever I described myself as t4t because she didn't see me as a trans person. Not being seen as a trans person by most people because I'm a femme nonbinary person who is afab is the main reason Im t4t. A lot of cis people simply will not see me as trans and I can't be in a relationship with someone who uses my pronouns to my face but views me as a girl in their head. Not that trans people will always accept me but it always feels safer and more understanding
@@IgnorantSeekerI'm not OP but my general advice is to spend time with trans people and consuming content (like Ashton's) that's made with trans people in mind. The way you get rid of the problem of "using the right pronouns to their face but seeing them as their assigned gender in your head" problem is to just see and interact with a large variety of gender presentations and identities. Eventually, you'll adjust. You start seeing gender as kind of arbitrary and the easiest thing to do is wait for people to tell you how they want you to see them, because your instinctive guess can be wrong, and if you spend a lot of time in queer spaces it can be wrong VERY OFTEN so you just... stop listening to it. Don't beat yourself up about thoughts in the meantime though. Thoughts are something you have almost no control over and they don't mean you're a bad person or a bad ally. Your actions are what count. If you're consistently using the right pronouns, the trans people in your life will appreciate it regardless.
i’ve definitely heard of more fem or more masc leaning non-binary people being like completely erased from the “trans label”. I’m a trans masc guy so i dont fully understand it because it’s not my experience but i feel like i can understand more than cis people yk? i hope you find someone who fully loves and cares about you because you deserve it :]
Yeah those are most of the reasons I've heard as well. At least T4T romantic/sexual relationships, he did specify that he was including content and platonic relationships as well.
I think another important element is like sexual compatibility- a lot of trans people have s*x in ways that isn't really compatible with the way that most cis people have sex, like I don't have s*x with cis people unless they're kinky or involved in the kink community because I don't have sex in a way thats compatible with most cis people unless theyve expanded their idea of what sex looks like beyond the vanilla cishet standard. It's a lot easier/more inviting to navigate sexual wants and desires, and express discomfort with someone whos also marginalized due to their gender identity.
VERY real!! i didn’t want to talk too much abt sex in this vid bc of youtube’s guidelines but this is certainly a significant factor for a lot of people !
Yeah, same. Cis people kinda have sx to own each other, like their way of doing stuff is more utilitarian than an exploration of feelings. So hellraiser or nothing for me. Either we play with the cube or just go home because cis pp just be doing basic stuff.
This is def thing! I don’t know think it has to do with cis people specifically but most are this way because of conditioning and like… not questioning or exploring anything. My queer niece (who is married to a cis dude) and I had a convo about this: how everyone is apparently just a bunch of pillow princesses 😆 and expects fantastic sex to just… happen… and then complain about it. Foreplay is sex to me, penetration is not required, and sex is fun and freaky and weird and wonderful and should always be an adventure. But I guess that’s something that gets discovered when you’re used to doing the “unconventional”.
"T4T is fetishistic" is one of those opinions that r only developed by people who are chronically online and don't witness how the ideas they critique actually function in the real world. Like, I feel like if they actually had conversations with trans people in/seeking relationships with other trans people they'd find it painfully difficult to see it as dehumanizing
I can kinda sorta see how it's possible. Like, it's not impossible for trans people to have bad ideas. But the idea that it's somehow a serious concern that must be considered broadly to determine whether trans people only wanting to date other trans people is "problematic" is... Bizarre. And yeah, transphobic.
i personally just feel so much more comfortable around people who i know have similar experiences as me (like neurodivergent and/or queer people) so i feel like t4t is a completely understandable desire?? for a partner who shares such a integral experience with yourself???
I've been t4t for like 3-4 years now (half on purpose and half because that's just how it's gone, cis people's beauty standards are weird) and I don't know that I've dated chasers per se BUT there's just this like "oh..." feeling when you've been this newly-t4t transmasc's partner for like a month and they show you their twitter and nearly every single original post for MONTHS before they met you is just "i want girl dick i want girl dick girl dick's so hot i want girl dick." And then "Oh we're just together because I was the first transfem willing to sleep with you" In my experience, once someone actually KNOWS more trans people (specifically in real life), that particular objectification sort of goes away a lot (unless they're particularly obtuse, which I've also had to run-for-the-hills from a couple times). But it is something to consider, I guess? It probably also goes the other way, but most of the transfems I've dated have been lesbians or sapphic leaning, so I don't really see that side of things. And sidenote to the rest of that, but one of my friends has been organizing a t4t... festivities... and the planning around that has been just sort of fun and even a little silly in a way that my friends who date cis people just don't experience in their group-intimacy experiences.
I do absolutely know what you're talkin about, but I will say i have experienced it the other way quite a few times, i.e trans fems who fixate on trans mascs, especially pre-t ones.. I can just says its equally as off-putting and weird, especially when they hyperfocus on your typically "feminized" traits. Bu i think its like what ashton said, that it comes from a pretty different place? I feel like a lot of trans peple with fixations on other trans people, especially if that person is a different gender, is because they both covet how that person IS and how they exist in the world, and desire a closeness to transness and trans sex that makes them feel seen. Sometimes it just manifests in a super toxic way, unfortunately. There are also predators who target specific kinds of people, but theres predators in every community and that comes from an entirely different mindset and desire hoo boy
this video made me realize how as a two-spirit afro-indigenous dude i love that my white gf is non binary and a commie cause i don't gotta explain the way colonialization affected gender roles. it's also really cool to start dating someone at the start of their transition cause it feels like i'm watching her grow into the person she wants to be
i read freud’s essay the sexual aberrations for the first time in a sexuality class this year and i was really shocked to learn the etymology of the word fetish. idk if freud coined it himself but he explains that the sexual term is in reference to “savages” worshipping their “false idols” (called fetishes) instead of the “legitimate” christian god. i’m black so my first thought was just “not cool, dude” lol. but on a more serious note, i think that cultural context contributes to it feeling like such a dirty word
yeah, fetish is literally the anthropological term for a physical object that is viewed as having supernatural abilities or being embodied by a god or spirit and venerated as such. While it obviously started out as a horrendously racist term used to other non christian belief systems, the sacrament in church services fits the definition. And the varius relics and body parts of Catholic saints definitely do
I think most of Freud has been debunked by modern psychology, I feel he put alot of his own twisted ideas into his work, mainly stemming from his obsession with his mother .... don't Google that last bit for your own sanity
In regards to around 32:00 noting that people unfortunately aren’t always safe with a t4t relationship: I definitely glorified my first t4t relationship (while 15 and newly out) to a point where I didn’t enforce my own boundaries well. Basically I was with a trans girl(also newly out) who would often compliment my(trans guy) “feminine features” and how she envied them. That made me really dysphoric but I was young and thought “well that’s her own dysphoria she can’t help it”. - I just want to remind any young trans person that your boundaries should be respected no matter what and another trans persons dysphoria is no excuse for making you uncomfortable. On the flip side after that I had a relationship with another trans guy that made me be more at peace with my own transness. I saw so many of the features in him that I disliked in myself and found them both beautiful and masculine. That love and attraction allowed me to disengage with the socially normative way of viewing masculinity, gender and beauty in such a gentle sweet way. Also you’re completely on point with the power dynamic and marginalisation playing a huge role in why chasers are bad and fetish-y while t4t is not - from my experience t4t friendships and friend groups can especially feel comforting and liberating and I do seek out trans friends because of that shared connection and not having to do the “gender 101 talk” lol. Anyways great video and whoever is reading this I hope you have a great day :)
Yeah my transfem ex loved to try to feminize me and then call me gender goals. People who are in a bad headspace, and a lot of trans people unfortunately are, can sometimes really lack empathy. Sometimes the relatability of t4t can lead to being hurt and fucked up in a deeper way I think.
I've always believed that your own insecurities are no reason to make other people feel bad, even if they have something you want, well said. I agree w/ the whole comment, too--sometimes it's just easier, not to mention healing, to be around people who get it. And thanks for saying that abt boundaries. We all, especially the kids, need to remember that. It's kind of like how wlw relationships get glorified as automatically wonderful and that's just dangerous thinking :/ and a bit dehumanizing if you think about it. Also that's a lovely thing to hear about, your better relationship and how it helped you 😊 I've found it to be true that one of the best ways to feel better about yourself and rewire your thinking is by admiring other ppl :) And you have a great day too :)
Wanted to add my experience as a trans guy dating a trans woman who has sometimes commented about things that make me dysphoric in a positive way (oh your skin is so soft) bc they may be something that she envies. We have a great relationship with wonderful communication. She just stops mentioning it. It's that simple. Everyone should respect your boundaries, especially other trans people. Sometimes when we talk about our experiences, it's like looking into a mirror. There are things about feminity that i don't think i could have appreciated until she talks about how she relates to it. And vice versa. A positive T4T relationship can change your whole outlook on life. I'm sorry y'all had bad experiences
I am a trans guy and had some bad experiences with trans women (as friends or aquiaintances) doing stuff similar to what you mention, but I am also dating a trans woman and luckily I have completely no issues with them :) They never point out aspects that made me dysphoric but at the same time they don't make it seem like I have to be masculine either. It just doesn't matter, they like me for me and not for my body.
I’m in a t4t relationship (we’re both nonbinary lesbians) but neither of us were really searching for a trans partner. Personally, I wasn’t really looking for a relationship at all. That might have something to do with the fact that I’m asexual and arospec though. We kinda just ended up falling in love because we have been friends for so long. We met when we both thought we were straight girls and have been there for each other through basically our whole queer self discoveries or whatever. I don’t really know where I was going with this. Most of my friends are also trans, this wasn’t on purpose, we all just ended up together somehow. I think it’s nice.
I have literally the exact same story?? My partner and I met as cishet girls, were friends for years, and are now ace and arospec nonbinary lesbians celebrating our 8 year anniversary. And so many of our friends also came out as trans so we have a very trans group. So cool to hear someone else has had the same experience! 💜
I wish I had trans friends, all my friends are cis and it’s really difficult to find that relatability. I’ve dated cis girls as a cis lesbian, but since realising I’m non binary I haven’t dated anyone at all. Hearing about relationships like yours is really nice, and I hope in the future I could have a relationship like what you have with your partner. I wish the two of you the best, thank you for sharing your story :)
!!! I thought myself aroace until i realized my feelings for my best friend in discord were. not quite platonic. and part of us being so close was the fact that were both trans guys. dating him meant joining his polycule and by doing so i got two more partners out of it, plus a metamour - my bf is a gnc trans man, my datemate is transfem, my joyfriend is nonbinary and on T, and my metamour (joyfriend’s spouse) is genderfluid! none of us are cis, and im so happy i stumbled into such queer love. The hardest part is living so far away from them all 😭 I’ve visited joyfriend and metamour across the country, but bf and datemate live on the other side of the world :(
@@theamarsh4715 That's amazing! My QPR and I became friends 6 years ago when we both thought we were cis and I hadn't figured out I was arospecace and now we're over a year into a QPR. It's been really nice and so encouraging to hear of someone who's been in a relationship with a fellow arospecace for so long
How you can be nonbinary and a lesbian? "Lesbian" directly implies that there are 2 women in a relationship. So, calling yourself a lesbian, you de facto call yourself a woman. Doesn't it give you gender dysphoria? Please, don't appropriate term which doesn't belong to you at all. The term for nonbinary folks is "queer".
@@graveyardpansy I'm sure many others like myself thoroughly enjoy your content. I've never been the “I'm obsessed with celebrities” type, but I absolutely adore you. Also.. the username “graveyardpansy” is rad.
my take: t4t isn't inherently fetish-y. most of the time it isn't, actually. unfortunately i've met a lot of t4t trans people who are kinda creepy. who see my worth as a "boy with pussy"(which especially hurts as a bottom dysphoric trans guy), but that's just bad luck for me :(
Same, I've met T4T trans people that have definetley made me uncomfortable because it feels like all they see me as is trans as if thats my whole person.
@@ashleyashleym2969 yeah that too. i hate being boiled down to my transness, being treated like that's my most important part. if someone really loved me then it wouldn't matter if i was cis or trans y'know (obviously no hate for t4t people i just have baggage lol. and i know that most t4t people are normal and won't boil me down to one trait. just sucks when trans people *do* do that)
So my body is mostly shaped the way people expect for a woman (which I am...kind of, sometimes), but this issue speaks a lot to my experience as a fat person. I understand people wanting to be cautious, but at the same time the difference between a chaser and someone who just...likes big folks is pretty obvious. The latter will know or want to learn how being fat shapes my life and experience. They'll care about how their interaction with my body makes me feel. They’ll want me to see the beauty in myself that they see and enjoy their appreciation of my body. Chasers, on the other hand, won't care if they provoke shame or discomfort. They might even do it on purpose. They’ll act entitled to my body and my time and often act as if I should be grateful they even look at me. They often see their attraction to me as dirty and shameful and project that disgust onto me, considering me worthy of degradation and disrespect. Most of what I see in t4t discussions is very obviously not that.
I like that you pointed to fetishes not being an inherently bad thing. the difference between fetisihization that comes with chasers and other fetishes is that chasers fetishize a persons identity, and by doing so turns that persons identity into a comodity for themselves. which strips that person of their identity and personhood. in some ways t4t is about the opposite of this fetishization because for many t4t is a form of safeguarding from this fetishization by virtue of mutual understanding of gender and a shared experience moving through the world. that is not to say that individual people or relationships cannot have the same fetishization. it is possible for a trans person to fetishize another trans person the way chasers do, but I see that the same way that trans people can be transphobes: trans people are not immune to taking part in harmful societal standards and individual behaviours towards other trans people or the trans community. however while that is true trans people are less likely to do that. and saying t4t is fetishization would (in my opinion) be equivalent to saying the trans community is transphobic because there are transphobic trans people. a huge distinction between chasers view of trans people and t4t peoples view of trans people lies in the commodifying that happens. chasers seek a specific gratification from trans people as a commodity whereas t4t people (often) seek a relationship on an equal footing and understanding of eachothers humanity. thank you for this video!
I’ve had to deal with a lot of chasers but I also feel that a lot of ppl frame any desire for a trans person as inherently fetishistic. I often get the impression that if anyone were to desire my type of body it would make them a chaser. I don’t necessarily want to be wanted FOR my transness, but the thought of being wanted in SPITE of it sounds exhausting at this point. I’ve seen a lot of cis ppl accused of being chasers simply because when asked if they’d date a trans person they enthusiastically said they would. It does feel like it comes from a place of internalized transphobia or trauma at times. Earlier in my transition I hoped for ppl’s apathy. But more and more lately I’m wishing for other’s active interest in the type of body I have, and not sure where the exact lines between chaser & non-chaser are. I’m somewhat conflicted.
I mean I think one thing that needs to be said is that although often times T4T is NOT fetisihsation, it can be. And there are trans people who are T4T who do fetishise other trans people and go about that in the way that cis chasers do. These people are the minority of T4T for sure, they're not common at all, but they do exist. And dont get me wrong I love T4T content and T4T friendships, I have plenty of them and I enjoy it, but I think it's important to recognize that as a trans person we are not immune to transphobia and fetishizing other trans people.
absolutely - there's a few other comments about that too, and i talk abt it a bit at the end of the video. i do wish i'd put it further forward in the video bc i think it's such an important aspect of the discussion, thank you for emphasising it!!
As someone (transmasc Butch) who’s mostly been with other non binary/trans ppl, I’ve never encountered fetishization. I have encountered shitty ppl though- I feel it’s important to remember trans ppl can also be fucked up/toxic/abusive. While I do believe t4t is safer in most of cases, it doesn’t guarantee a Good relationship.
T4T can also encourage self love in my experience. Learning to allow myself to find other trans people hot and to love them has helped me do the same to myself. T4T has helped me explore my own gender fuckery and identity. I am not exclusively T4T, but i will say that my T4T experiences feel notably safer and fun than with cis people. With cis people it feels like they love or are attracted to me despite my transness. With trans people it feels like they recognize that part of me and love it just as much as any other part of me. Geing GNC and trans means that with cis people i am constantly explaining myself, in t4t relationships it's appreciated and i don't feel fetishized for being a trans guy in a dress. I feel like regardless of the way i present they still see me as who i am- like i don't have to perform and earn respect. If being t4t is a fetish, i don't think it's a harmful one
If I could print a comment on my forehead it'd be this one lol 💚 Trying to explain to cis ppl that wearing a skirt doesn't mean I'm declaring a change to my gender is the Least complicated part of the genderfkery and even with just that I get a lot of eyes glazing over. I don't even know how to begin to tell someone that they can love my transness with the rest of me at the same time as understanding that it does also cause me pain. But with most trans ppl, you can just say that and they know what you mean, it's kinda magical.
i don't think being t4t is inherently fetishy, especially when u hear to a lot of t4t ppls reasoning as to why they are. a lot of t4t ppl cite safety and things like that which i totally understand and respect. for me though most of the t4t ppl i've come across go about it. insensitively?? somewhere around there lol. being very blatantly uninterested in me until they find out i'm trans, which to me feels just as shallow as when a cis person is interested in me n then immediately drops me when they find out i'm trans. like i understand your dating pool is smaller but 💀 also them assuming we'd be comfortable with the same things in a sexual context just because we're both the same flavor of trans 😐 love my t4t homies i'm just saying to keep in mind not to do things like that, just bc we're both trans doesn't mean we feel the same way about our transness or that you can assume everything and not have to communicate!!
it does make sense to me. im cis but im autistic and i do tend to gravitate to other autistics and form friendships with them rather than neurotypicals. i imagine its similar. there's some things only people who have lived through the same experiences can understand and connect that way.
Thank you. I've been experiencing a lot of guilt and fear over the idea that I might be fetishizing other transgender people but honestly I just want to celebrate the different ways humans can be both in my life and in my art without shying away from the sexual parts of ourselves.
When I was a younger trans person, I really hated myself and I would get mad at other trans people if they didn't hate themselves. As I got older more of my friends also came out as trans and I gained a community of trans people like me and so I became more open to being around trans people. Now I'm in a t4t relationship and I've felt so much better. I find my and my girlfriends relationship beautiful and we can understand each other better than cis people could ever.
Just taking a moment to appreciate the fact that you added proper captions so deaf people (like me) can watch your videos. I feel like I get smarter every time I watch your essay style videos. I'm not trans or anything, but I think in 2023 everyone should at least know the basics of these things, especially since in the last year I've made some trans and non-binary friends. I don't think it's weird at all for transgender people to want to date people with similar experiences. It's like if you're someone who only speaks English, you might only want to date people who can speak English so you can understand each other. I think it's completely normal to want to have a partner who understands you whether that be language or major life experience. I don't even understand why that might be controversial because I think most people do that to some degree.
I think another reason some trans ppl think t4t is fetishizing is gender dysphoria. Like they get a bad reaction from seeing ppl say "boy pussy" or "girl dick" (even when those terms are not being unconsensually used on anyone) and they then confuse their disgust (from gender dysphoria) with genuinely thinking it's a bad thing.
i'm a nonbinary lesbian and i've been with both cis folx and trans folx, but my current partner is also nonbinary and i swear the t4t dynamic feels so liberating. after getting top surgery, they were there for me in a way i never expected anyone to be, they still admire my scars and take note at how well they're healing after almost 2 years post-op. tbh, our appreciation of each other's gender expressions and incongruent gender features is part of the reason we're so happy together. we feel so safe and loved in a way we never felt with our previous cis partners. anyway trans folx are so slay, have a wonderful day/night yall 🏳⚧💘
I definitely prefer t4t relationships and am in one now but none of them have really lived up to the ideal. It's a special from of rejection when your trans partner doesn't understand your gender identity.
The level of understanding in T4T is so beautiful, my enby partner sees me as the woman I am and I see them as the wonderfully not guy not girl all hottie they are
I think a major component of fetishization as I’ve experienced it is a projection of the person’s own desires and expectations onto another person and wanting them to be an avatar of those desires. And in that sense, for a chaser, I’m “interchangeable” with any other transfem person (or fat person or a nonwhite person). And this is something that’s felt even when you happen to be into the same type of encounter as chasers are, because they can’t help but let you know through their behavior and words. I’m gonna go in a bit deeper so CW for racial fetishization, trans fetishization, porn, very brief mention of consensual nonconsent To give an example, when I used to present as a man lots of white cis men assumed I’m a top because I’m middle eastern (I’m not), and obviously that’s distressing, especially due to my dysphoria. But talking to a Chinese friend who happens to be bottom and a sub, fitting those expectations can be just as alienating, because you just know you’re interchangeable with any other “Asian bottom”. So like, I think it’s not impossible to have that attitude towards others even if you’re in the same marginalized group. And there are trans people who kinda expected me to be *their* expectation of what a nonbinary/transfem person must be like. But there’s also the added layer of complexity, which is denial, and how “transness as a fetish” is a LOT of people’s first exposure to transness (bc of porn), and people sometimes feel “safer” psychologically to categorize their own transness and that of others as a “fetish” because it feels like it’s confined within the constraints of “something they do when they’re horny” and it doesn’t have broader implications about their social life. So they consider it a fetish, use the language of fetish to describe it, but it really is just denial lol. There’s actually a similar phenomenon with queer people (specifically cis queer men, and bi/pan men) where they see the non-hetero components of their sexuality as a “fetish” initially when they start exploring their sexuality. It’s why porn genres like “forced gay” exist (where a super hot girl “convinces” or “forces” a guy to do “gay” stuff), it’s kind of… an erotic expression of a real anxiety, while reassuring the person that “it’s okay it doesn’t have any deeper implications”. I’ve actually had conversations with guys like that, and it’s.. super easy to make them realize that this view of their own sexuality makes them extremely lonely. idk I’m rambling but I guess it’s all just complicated.
Specifically about finding gender incongruent features attractive and worthy of celebration I definitely find other trans fems bodies extremely attractive and in finding them attractive it’s really helped me find beauty in my own body. But even though I’m generally much more into femininity sexually, and as a transfem acquiring boobs has been one of the biggest joys of my life, I LOVE seeing top surgery scars. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy and happy. Because even though it’s an aspect of gender presentation I would never want for myself, or find particularly attractive in others, it’s such a clear and out there representation of someone affirming their gender and living in their truth that seeing someone display them proudly gives me big old snuggly second hand trans joy and makes me feel immensely happy for them
When I came out as transgender, it basically destroyed my marriage. You'd think that would be kind of a given, right?, you would assume that if I was married to a woman while presenting as a guy , then she would have likely have been straight, and her reason for leaving would have been that she's not attracted to women, or femininity in general. That's where it get's weird. My wife identified as pansexual, I've always been incredibly feminine in my presentation, and the subject of "getting a sex change" (i didn't know any better back then, okay?, it's part of the reason I never actually transitioned when I was younger) has come up from time to time as far back as when we were in college together. She always told me she would stay if I transitioned, because she's pan! she likes guys and girls!, this didn't come out of nowhere. She encouraged my cross dressing, and always heaped praise on my... less than masculine? personality. Turns out that the moment It became real- not just dressing up- the moment I started talking changing my name, using different pronouns, especially taking HRT, she had to drop the act. My wife had always had a hidden terf streak. She put on the front of an ally for all of our progressive queer friends- but in reality she "never really understood transgenderism" and *hated* trans women in particular. She found trans men attractive, but only in so far as they were (her words not mine) "basically the butchest lesbians you can find!". We tried to make it work, but every few weeks she would just go right back to square one, show she had learned nothing, and start actively being transphobic to me. I had an 11 year relationship burn to the ground, to the tune of my closest friend reeling off terf talking points at me, showing me clips from conservative figures *destroying transgenderism*, turning all of my friends against me, and telling me I was a freak the entire time. I'm never going to have a long term relationship ever again, but when I'm getting close to people from now on, not just hooking up- it's probably always going to be t4t. Because I just can't trust cis people to understand what I am, and not behave massively unpredictably in response to my transgender nature.
@@anothernerd6464 Yeah. For what it's worth I've been seeing other trans people, mostly other trans girls, since the separation, and it's been a really good time!
meeting my first trans friend opened up my whole life. i have never felt as comfortable in my gender and body as i did around him, and it was while spending time with him that i came to accept and even love being transmasc. it was the first time i felt like i was fully seen and understood in a way i didn’t know i’d been lacking for so many years. the joy and beauty of being trans is incomparable and i hope every trans person can experience it
thank you for this video! i haven't heard t4t used more broadly about community and art but i really like this usage. purity culture really does taint so many conversations. as an asexual person, it astonishes me how society will tell people sex and desire is gross and shameful, but as soon as I say yeah, i don't have these desires and am sex-repulsed, society wants to shame me for that too. it's truly about control and denying autonomy to try to force people into a normative role. people defying purity culture by understanding the range and types of desire they experience and embracing that with no shame can create friction when purity culture values are present.
I personally am at this point in my life where I would only do t4t. All my partners have been cis and they just don't get it, they don't understand why I'm not comfortable with certain things that are just so natural for them. Plus with the current climate of transphobia I feel like I need someone to be a hundred precent safe and who I know isn't gonna turn against me.
This reminds me of a few essays by Julia Serano where she challenges the idea that attraction to features associated with transness is inherently fetishizing. I don't think I completely agree with all her takes on the topic, but it did get me thinking a lot. I was definitely implicitly holding the assumption that it was gross for a person to be attracted to the features I have as a result of being trans, and I had never really investigated that idea before. One thing I thought about while mulling over that article was how I think our dysphoria contributes a lot to our vigilance surrounding fetishization. For example, I felt really revolted by the idea of a person enjoying the fact that I have a bonus hole, and I would have chalked that up to the fact that it felt fetishizing. But then I realized that I didn't have the same reaction to the thought of someone being into my t-dick. And it dawned on me that the difference was that the bonus hole gives me dysphoria, the t-dick feels affirming to my gender. And that, to me, is a confusing line to walk - because I don't necessarily mind the general idea of someone being attracted to my transness, I really don't want them to be in to any of the things that make me dysphoric. I wonder if some of the people who are criticizing t4t are experiencing the same thing. If you wish a particular part of your body was different, or maybe you wish you weren't trans altogether, the idea of someone being attracted to that part of you is reflexively revolting. And it feels dehumanizing, because to you it would be - it wouldn't be fun for you to take part in that dynamic, so another person would just be extracting pleasure from you while you're not enjoying it. No person who was respecting you as a human being could be turned on in that situation. Obviously, I know genuine chasers are all too common. I have been on Grindr. But I do think it's important for us to think about what it says if we tell people it's inherently "fetishizing" to be attracted to trans bodies. As you said, the issue is when people focus on the transness to the exclusion of all else, and don't respect the full humanity of the involved person. Idk, this is a lot of rambly thoughts but it's late and this was a really interesting video so I guess I just had a lot to say about it all lol.
i would consider myself to be t4t in that i desire relationships (platonic or otherwise) primarily with other trans people because i want to be understood in a way that cis people simply cannot understand me. when my cis friend says "omg congrats you're gonna come back to school with a deep voice and a beard lol" in response to me saying i started T, they don't understand that T doesn't work immediately, and their comment made me feel kinda weird because i *won't* have a deep voice or facial hair after 1 month and a half on T. with my cis friends, i always feel the risk of having to explain how trans identities or hormones or whatever work. even if a trans friend said the exact same thing, i wouldn't feel so awkward because they're way less likely to react with frantic apologies and i know that there is still some level of implicit understanding of my transness thanks for the video, i certainly learned some things about fetishization, especially with the difference between fetishizing something as a part of a whole person as opposed to with no regard to the person
this also was helpful for distinguishing between chasers wanting to get topped by a girl with dick versus actual trans people celebrating our bodies in defiance of cisheteronormativity
Re: chaser discourse - the 90s trans zine Gendertrash noted a difference between 'chasers' (cis people who fetishize trans people) and those who are 'gender oriented' (cis people who are open to loving and living in community with trans people). I personally find this distinction very useful and Gendertrash is an amazing t4t resource that I wish more trans people knew about. In general I find that late 80s/early 90s trans culture has many useful pieces of community knowledge that didnt get passed down (for obvious reasons)
Depending on who you ask I'm technically in a t4t relationship (going on 3 years now) and before i realized i was nonbinary my transfem partner was really bothered by the messaging in some more insular trans sapphic spaces that basically they could never have a fulfilling relationship with a cis women because they would never see them as women, even if they say they do. i remember my gf getting really pissed off at that because it went beyond cautioning about power imbalances to writing off a swathe of potential partners. i found out later that some holders of this view had a history of downplaying domestic violence between transfem partners to protect the perpetrators from cis ire. it was easy to turn an intracommunity conflict into an us vs them situation. so im glad you touched on the fact that it isnt healthy or practical to act like t4t relationships will always be safe, healthy, or free from power dynamics.
the chaser thing also kind of held off the start of my relationship because i could not process the fact that i thought i was a cis woman, that i felt an undeniable sexual attraction to and emotional interest in transfems, and that i saw a lot of messaging online that that made me a chaser. it helped later to learn that many ppl defined trans chasers as ppl who view trans ppl as sex objects first and use abusive tactics to isolate them and keep them manipulatable, for example by keeping their self esteem low or physically threatening them.
hearing u mention transmeds reminds me of one post i saw somewhere about a pair of trans men who both saw the other as women?? and were somehow still together. i cannot fathom the cognitive dissonance
I kept having the same thought when the whole "iS iT tRanSphObiC to not want to date trans people🤔🤔🤔" discourse was making it's rounds... Why do they assume we want to date them in the first place? Like if you're a transphobe who doesn't respect me or a fundamental part of my identity... why would I want to have sex with you? I think t4t kind of goes against that ethos of centering cis people and their attractions and comfort. Good video, it is an interesting conversation and topic in general
i adore your inclusion of the fact that sometimes t4t relationships are affected by other biases. that's a really great point to be made especially in a conversation like this. as a t4t person who has been in unhealthy t4t relationships, the acknowledgement of t4t relationships not being as much of a safe haven as they are sometimes presented is really important. your point about trans people possibly also having other biases is also important because as a fat transmasc, i have had multiple facets of my identity "fetishized" by other trans people. that all being said, being t4t isn't inherently "fetishistic" but t4t relationships aren't always perfect in every way. great video!
Kinda on the same point of the fetishization discussion I think a main thing with fetishization and sexualization of being trans is the aspect of how it’s non-consensual for those it’s directed at in alot of situations. That’s why I don’t think fetishization is a black and white issue of good or bad it’s more about if the person is acting on it in a safe and healthy way with whoever else is involved. like most things in kink consent is key. With chasers they definitely do it in a way that IS dehumanizing and the way people have been throwing around the term ‘chaser’ so loosely now is exhausting. You can like someone for being trans specifically cus they’re trans. I’m trans and other trans people are fucking hot man I love us
As someone who is trans, communication is just SO much easier with other trans people. Even if they aren't necessarily "good" relationships (ie hookups, friends with benefits) t4t is just so much smoother in terms of acceptance and communication. Especially when it's something I don't want to put a ton of effort in, as in hookups, t4t relationships make it easier for me and my partner to express our wants and needs. Once I'm ready for long term relationships, I think it'll change. The same can also be said for neurodivergent dating. I have a much easier time being in a relationship with someone who is neurodivergent, whether it is autism, ADHD, schizophrenia, or a depersonalization/derealization disorder. As corny as it sounds, trans people and neurodivergent people are on the same wavelength as me. I expend a lot less energy in a relationship and it's a lot less stressful to communicate with someone like me :]
I only dated cishet guys for years. It was ok, and the concept of a chaser is incredibly nebulous. But, I'm now in a relationship with another trans woman and it does seem more fulfilling because we're more on the same wavelength. There are still things I miss from those pain in the ass guys. It's complicated.
Im willing to bet a lot of the people upset aboit t4t are the same who get upset about tje idea that a trans person might ever be attractive to a cis person
I needed this video right now. I’ve been identifying as a cis lesbian for almost 6 years now, and for the past 3 years almost I’ve been thinking deeply about my gender. Videos like this make me feel safer, and I’ve been going by they/them for 2-ish years now. My friends are currently using those pronouns for me, although they struggle with using my preferred name. Right now I’m not fully confident in going by the identity I feel comfortable with, but videos like this assure me there will be a time where I will be. Thank you for sharing this
I’d be interested in exploring queer t4c relationships in a video. (While t4t is great and valid, don’t get me wrong, I have trouble forming them due to 1. Being gay, (homoflexible technically, but for all intents and purposes gay) and a lack of trans men in my area, let alone those who are my type, 2. Gender dysphoria that, uh, tends to internalize outward appearances (I.e. Sleeping with someone who has a bonus hole reminds me I have a bonus hole, which makes me feel bad, while sleeping with someone who doesn’t have it doesn’t make me feel bad), which 3. Leads to me having a genital preference. That said, it does seem cool.) I’m interested in the politics of queer t4c, considering a lot of it would have to deal with transphobic queer people, gatekeeping, and how queer relationships by trans people tend to be invisible. I know it’s not as “radical” as t4t, but it’s what I tend to be drawn to, personally.
I'm having a similar experience, it kinda feels nice to not feel alone. I also kinda have the same problem of gender dysphoria kinda being able to be triggered by other people, and some preferences that make it a little harder to find trans men who I'm attracted to.
that's really interesting, even though I personally feel the opposite. I think sometimes it's easy to forget how different everyone experiences life and gender, but I like seeing comments like this to remind me. Like for me, being with a cis person would just remind me that my body isn't what I want it to be and isn't considered "normal" in society, but being with another trans person makes me feel more validated and that it's okay for my body to exist the way it does. Anything can be a dysphoria trigger for some, and I also think t4c would also be a really interesting topic to cover because of that :)
this is a rly interesting thought!! i'm not sure i'm the best person to make that video - i've had quite a few partners in a handful of diff relationship styles and only one (1) has been cis. but! there is definitely a lot to explore there, i'll keep it in mind :) would definitely need a lot of community input like this video did lol
I've similarly found myself in primarily t4c queer relationships, but only because I don't know as many trans people as I know cis people, and I just haven't clicked with the trans guys or non-binary people I know romantically (I'm not attracted to women). It's interesting that you've had dysphoric experiences with people with similar bodies to you, as I think I've experienced it in the reverse (a trans guy feeling uncomfortable being with ME because my body reminded him of his body). Regardless of whether they're trans or cis, I hope you have someone you love and are feeling whole!
Yesss. As a T4T gay transmasc, T4T discourse has left me to question my sexuality and identity, and its been damaging. Whenever I find myself being attracted to another transmasc, I stop myself from pursuing it in fear that I will prove anti-T4T folks right, that I find other transmascs attractive. In reality, I feel safe around transmascs, where cis men scare me. Transmascs understand my identity in a way most cis men will never even attempt to. And it is still taking work for me to be confident in this, that I am not some pervert, but instead just looking for people who accept me.
As a nonbinary transfem, I dated cishet men for a long time. I've always been out as bi but there's always been the validation aspect of dating cishet men, a kind of comphet for trans people, that if I can fit into straight society, I'm valid and accepted. So letting go of that and going back to dating trans people has been liberating (I started off doing, my first real boyfriend in high school was trans and I dated a couple others after that). There's also the aspect that I can date another transfem and be a top and the more masculine and dominant partner in that relationship. Cishet men expect me to always be bottom, feminine, and submissive. If I ever dated a cis woman (I never have, I've hooked up with a few though), I'd worry that I was being pressured into that more traditionally masculine role *because* I'm trans. So t4t enables gender expression and sexual flexibility in a way that dating cis people may not. (Most) trans people get it. (I've similarly heard trans guys say they were able to explore their feminine side after they started passing. They didn't feel like they had that flexibility pre-transition.)
i love the trans hair dye lol. tbh the whole fit for this vid is a vibe you have great style. and i appreciate the vid ty for talking abt this, it was genuinely really heart warming awdjkna like ive heard abt t4t in passing but im really glad i learned more abt it, its really nice to feel like i can reach out to other trans ppl, its something ive been really wanting... anyway yeah great vid >:D
Personally, I find it really valuable when people I'm close with (platonic or otherwise) have seriously looked at (and often questioned) their gender identity. A lot of those people are cis, but most of them are trans. It helps them understand genderfuckery better, which helps them understand that gender is sometimes weird but in a good way, and my gender may sometimes seem weird but in a good way.
such a great video!!! u covered the power/systemic dynamics in t4t versus chaser4trans relationships so well and how they more often than not CANNOT be the same. like i said, some trans people r assholes (like any other person) and can do just as much harm as many people believe cis people can harm us, but it is so important to recognize the inherent power imbalance when its a cis chaser after a trans person (because they are zeroing in on one aspect of them and surrounding their attraction solely on that). also thanks for sharing my research!! i hope you enjoy reading the rest of it :D so many of my participants were t4t and spoke to me about the wonders of being in relationship with other trans people. it was so cathartic to hear. at the same time, there were so many participants who had great relationships with cis people as well, and there were some who had awful toxic relationships with cis AND trans people. all i can continue to say is that we all should be aware of the ways we are in relationship with each other. a relationship should inspire growth, intimacy, acknowledgement of the self, and built on mutual respect. being t4t may lead you to these relationships faster (because u will likely find someone who can inherently understand your body and experience), but its important for people to know that t4t are not inherently safe, which sucks to say because if you cannot find safety within your community, where do you go? community is built! build your community with the people who love and respect you as much as you them. anyway. i love you t4t and i hope all trans people find love and safety and community
I think there’s some dissonance between “fetish” and “fetishization” that we need to discuss. The two things are NOT the same. Fetishes are just specific things or actions that turn you on, like water play or big toys. It is just a thing. And object. Fetishization is when you take a person’s identity and boil it down TO a fetish. THAT is the issue with fetishization, that it is inherently dehumanizing to a person, objectifying them into a *thing* that turns you on.
It felt like “attraction to femininity” was the closest way of describing my sexuality as a lesbian that isn’t just “I like women” when that isn’t exclusively the case. But as I became more comfortable with my own trans identity and as I felt outcasted by patriarchal ideas of femininity, I no longer liked describing my sexuality in a binary. Now I prefer to describe my sexuality as being attracted to “queerness” which feels far more accurate, especially because I feel like queerness exists more freely while femininity still feels like a standard.
I personally do tend to lean towards t4t relationships. In my experience, it has been more about both of us understanding the same terms and other trans people are more likely to avoid terminology that would make each other dysphoric. I guess it feels like it makes me feel like we have some shared experiences and understand each other better in that way. I also tend to find it easier to talk about things that make me feel comfortable of uncomfortable in regards to my gender with a trans person than with a cis person because I know that they’ll likely understand those things or at least not push or question my insecurities in a way that make me dysphoric. I have no idea if that made any sense.
I’m trans and in a t4t relationship with my spouse and I couldn’t ever imagine being married to anyone who wasn’t trans, it’s just..easier to have a gender conversation and much more comfortable knowing that in my relationship I am seen how I want to be seen rather than how I look, especially considering I’m not physically transitioning, t4t is just… better as a whole in my opinion
T4T is something I generally only use on dating apps and I occasionally get people asking me what that means on some of those apps, except Grindr naturally. But god, fetishism of trans folk by actual chasers is something weird and I've definitely experienced even this past week.
my first relationship with another trans person was so welcoming that it led to me finding the world of t4t. i found it so beautiful that someone understood me so easily and loved me wholeheartedly. loving a trans person made me more comfortable with my own transness in a way and definitely helped me find my identity. the t4t community i’ve interacted with is very kind. i just gravitate toward and prefer queer groups.
all my experience with t4t has just been that its soo much easier to connect and feel comfortable with another trans person (regardless of what flavour be they transfem, transmasc, enby, agender whatever) than it is with the majority of cis folks. Even queer cis folks. I just find theres very often this barrier of "oh your trans, cool, whats that like?" "when did you start transitioning?" or other questions about that aspect of me. Thats not their fault, its mostly just that they've never known a trans person before and their interested. And it can be ok, when i have the energy for it. But with another trans person you not only don't have to get past that stage, you already have a connection of knowing what its like. Theres already a shared experience that you can either bond over chatting about or totally ignore because you both know they already get it. That goes for friendship just as much as sexual and romantic connections. Trans people also just inherently have much more of an understanding of how to interact with bodyparts. Like asking what parts if any are dysphoric and then just being totally fine with that without questions. For me using feminine complements for aspects of my body that might culturally be considered masculine, and even playfully sexualising aspects of my trans body i am comfortable with in a noncreepy way. These aren't behaviours that only trans people can have, ive met a few cis women who are super cool and awesome with it all. But its just soo much rarer around me. And so for someone who's still only a couple years into medical transition that just makes dating other trans and enby folks soo much easier and more comfortable. And as a transgirl who mostly dates girls in the UK, t4t significantly reduces the fear that the fem im sending a message to will turn out to be a raving turf. Luckily ive never gotten harassment like that from dating sites myself, but i know people who have, and it does add that element of anxiety. But i have had a very big difference in the number of replies i get from trans folks i message compared to cis. Maybe like one in 20 cis girls i message will reply, where its much more along the lines of one in three or four with other trans folks. And that just makes me feel unwelcome contacting cis girls. Anyway i have a wonderful girlfriend atm and she's part of a very trans polycule and im on a bunch of super trans discord servers now so i'm not in the dating app game any more thank goodness All that being said i do have cis friends and they're cool and lovely. But theres just soo much higher hit rate and smoother journey getting to that stage with trans folks ime
Funny thing when you brought up freckles…. Disabled trans ginger here. I realized being trans was something cis people had fetishes for, and disabled people sometimes were fetishized by ambled bodies people. Didn’t know how much this would feel amplified by having red hair? How many people I’ve seen who only dates like redheaded + (insert marginalization here) combo. Just weird to me. Once noticed this person I was with who only dated redheaded trans men and was like “this feels weird man”
I’m just starting to find irl community after years of mostly being online. It’s very helpful to me to see t4t as including friendship and camaraderie as well.
As a non-trans (but kinda genderfuck-y and bisexual) person, i recognize a lot of me and my partners (heterosexual but neurodiverse and kinda genderqueer) relationship and what i value about it in what you said about t4t dynamics. The willingness to see each other for who we are and appreciate each others idiosyncrasies. Being open and experimental with our roles and behavior both inside and outside the bedroom. Having this consciousness around being fluid, evolving people and trying to find and refine what works for us, individually and as a couple. To not see each other as a role with expectations attached but as People. As you said, t4t isn't a guarantee that a relationship is fulfilling and safe, and it is not a requirement for it either. But there are so many people and finding a compatible partner is very hard, especially on online platforms and dating sites. So it can be really helpful to at least have somewhere to start looking. And t4t can be just that. Like when i moved to a new region, i had a really hard time finding friends here and people i got along with until i started going to a queer and kink munch (which happened to have a considerable proportion of neurodivere people as well). And in that space, i felt like the baseline of compatibility and mutual understanding was just higher by default than in the more general populace. Is q4q or nd4nd a thing as well?
I appreciate that you touched on how t4t relationships aren't inherently good or better than other kinds of relationships. I see this idea alot in (almost always online) trans spaces but, in my experience, t4t just makes it more likely that you won't be with someone transphobic ( but not impossible, sadly). Currently I'm in a relationship with a cis women and it's by far the best I've ever had and where I feel more understood. Sure, she isn't as fluent in some of the language but she's queer and nd and our connection isn't any less deep than if I were with another transwoman.
I skipped a bit in the middle, but I'm dissapointed there was no mention of transmisogyny specifically, as it's one of the major aspects of privilege/oppression that can be at play in bad t4t outside of racism. And beyond that there's a general tendency among transmisogyny-exempt trans people to downplay the role of transmisogyny in intercommunity dynamics.
In my opinion when it comes to dating people of different backgrounds, preferences are fine, but when they turn into hard rules you start having to justify weird shit. I don't think T4T is fetishistic or anything, but I do suspect that some trans people who are T4T simply have deep, unresolved trauma around their gender expression that they should work out if for no other reason than to be more at peace with yourself and the world. To me T4T is less about liking or fetishizing trans people and a lot more about excluding cis people, typically on the grounds that a cis person could never understand you and love you in an intimate way like a trans person could. This is of course people projecting their own insecurity onto every single cis person, and retreating to the security of knowing that your partner is in the same sticky situation. If you're really into trans people because you have a lot in common and can talk about gender with each other fluently then that's great, but excluding all cis people because of power dynamics and projection seems short-sighted to me. There are cis people who understand and love us just as deeply as any trans person could. Just date who you're attracted to.
It seems wild to me that anyone would jump to thinking t4t is a fetish even some of the time. I think we've been so oppressed that we internalize the transphobia and don't believe that someone can be attracted to trans bodies without denying our full personhood, and assume anyone that likes trans people specifically (cis or trans) is a chaser. I don't necessarily want to be homogenized as "just another woman, no different than they'd view a cis woman" when dating. I don't want to be fetishized and dehumanized but I also love when people appreciate the trans body I have as a unique thing. I don't want someone to "not see transness" out of trying to avoid being a chaser.
Im not done with the video yet but I wanna say how accurate this is so far, I'm a trans man who lives with three other trans people and our lives are so incredibly t4t because we've had to weed out all the cis people in our lives for one reason or another. Its not just safe it's family, it's community deeper than I've ever felt because I know these people feel deeply about themselves as well
I still find it weird that people would choose one single aspect of their identify and then only date people who share that aspect. Like I'm so many different things all at once. When looking to date someone I want that person to be relatedable to me on a bunch of different levels. And most of the time ends of meaning cis people
T4T makes sense. I need more trans women in my personal life. It's lonely having only one transfem friend that lives across the state. All the men I grew up with support me but I don't feel like I can rely on them for some things.
As a trans girl quite early in her transition who is in a t4t relationship, i find the idea that anyone could call anything that happens between me and my partner fetishisation baffling. My experience has been one of feeling safe from judgement, of being appreciated for who I am and not despite it, and of being incredibly affirmed by my partner. I can only hope I've been able to make them feel as appreciated. It's been beautiful and I'm grateful for the experience
I am a transwoman, I Haven't dated a cis-person in 5 years, and am in a polycule with 4 trans-mascs/ enbies. I genuinely don't think I could ever have a healthy relationship with a cis-person
As a trans high school student, I often feel fetishized/belittled by other kids, both trans and cis, but all claiming the ally label. Anytime I do anything they bring it back to me being trans or a “smol boi”, rather than being recognized for my other traits and skills. I’m incredibly good at math, but my talent which has been furthered by hard work doesn’t matter because “you’re such a smart trans”. I would love to date a trans person who sees me as a person, not a gender, but it’s not as important to me as personality of a person. That’s just my two cents.
I appreciate how nuanced this video was, especially when talking about how fetish isn't inherently bad I've only accepted my own transness/ non-binaryness half a year ago and I'm still exploring and figuring out what this means for me exactly One thing I've been struggling with a lot, especially when I was still questioning, is the appreciation, and yes even attraction, I feel towards aspects of transness and gender nonconformity I've been feeling a lot of guilt and shame over it, because I didn't wanna fetishize other trans people Personally I think it's important to have discussions like this to help people navigate these feelings I know I would certainly like to have a supportive, non judgemental space where I don't have to be afraid to talk about stuff like this
Me personally I love being t4t because I agree with everything said this video. The understanding and love that comes from a trans person appreciating the body and the identity you're both a part of. Beautiful, almost spiritual for me. Not just romantically or sexually, platonically as well
I apologize if I ramble, but I have had soooo many thoughts and experiences related to this topic, so plz excuse me if i do. SO on the issue of why some trans people are against t4t relationships, I definitely agree with the reasons you gave, especially for younger and pre-transition trans people. In my experience at least, those kinds of folks tend to have some anti-trans feelings they havent unlearned, and many times sexual trauma (experienced or via anti-sex upbringing) that they havent/couldnt unpack that they end up projecting onto other trans people. There's so much dysphoria people project sometimes, espwcially when they see the features they are dysphoric about being appreciated. It's a very....self-harming mindset in a lot of ways, and can be self-reinforcing (especially in transmed and truscum circles oh my god). But another big group i see who are particularly vocal a out this are older, binary, assimilationist trans people. Not necessarily transmeds (tho theres a lot of overlap) but these are people who believe that the goal of transition should be to fit into cis society neatly, and dating other trans people by default makes that impossible. This is something I see with a lot of older, straight and binary folks in particular, and it just..makes me sad I guess? For a similar reason transmeds and truscum make me sad. It seems so miserable defining yourself by what your oppressors think, and they ACT miserable. I absolutrly get how someone can come to that, but it just feels deeply tragic to me. There are absolutely parallels in the black community ive seen and experience too, and it makes me feel the same way. Tho, like with t4t, people who get very isolationaist (while be very understandable) can get real toxic, real fast. Anyway, becoming this idealized version of what you think our oppressors will find acceptable is a losing game. You will always be too trans, too black, too disabled, etc. You're marked, and no manner of shuckin and jivin will do anything but make it easier to manipulate and hurt you. As a side note, when i see the whole amab4amab and afab4afab thing (which is very rare at least in the spaces ive been, thank god) reminds me a lot of cis gay men who are like "masc4masc no fems" or whatever, tho in a different way. It just makes me think of that lmao. Like my buddy what are you doin, knock it off.
never apologize for rambles i appreciate these thoughts so much !! thank you for sharing all this :)) the note on older binary assimilationists is so interesting bc i've gotten a couple comments on this video (and a couple DMs weirdly enough) from that exact category that are really vehemently anti-t4t and yeah, it does just feel tragic. also, ur SO correct about always being "too" (insert marginalised identity) for the ppl that oppress you. assimilation will never provide liberation !!
i know this is irrelevant but i love your look, it is the softer version of "goth-punk" i grew up with and it is so cool to see young people still finding value in dressing that way
Loved hearing this deep dive! Lots of thoughts incoming, apologies for how long this comment is lol I honestly consider t4t to be my orientation. I can label my sexuality in a few other ways (leather, bi, queer, etc), but ultimately I find t4t to be a more useful and meaningful label than any other. RE: Chasers, I think something to consider is the fact that chasers’ attraction to trans people is often based around assumptions about how trans people have sex specifically because we are trans. As a trans man who is a stone top, I have never had a cis partner be able to respect my ‘do not touch my genitals’ boundary, especially if they’ve made a habit of sleeping with trans guys. At this point, while I am attracted to individual cis people, I do not think I’ll ever be comfortable actually engaging in sexual relationships with them ever again. My type in people goes beyond ‘trans’, obviously, but because that’s now a fundamental necessity for me to be able to have a sexual relationship with somebody, it makes sense to me for me to classify that as my orientation. I also - as somebody who’s a trans guy/transmasc with a wobbly gender, and/but is mostly attracted to women - I feel really seen by trans women/transfems with wobbly genders who are mostly attracted to men, even more than other kinds of trans people. It’s a particular kind of straight queer butch/femme that I don’t get to experience in any other kind of dynamic. That said, I don’t think t4t is a panacea! I definitely feel somewhat alienated by some t4t communities and spaces (and trans spaces in general) as somebody who isn’t gay and is straight-leaning (as much as I can be with a funky gender) in orientation and prefers presenting very hard masc (I personally consider transmasculine masculinity gender non-conforming, but I’m aware this isn’t universal), but also has no interest in being acceptable to cis people, dating cis people, or being stealth. Also regarding your last section, I also can feel a particular kind of way as a fat trans man in t4t spaces.
I didn't realize T4T could be used as an ethos in addition to a relationship search term. I read so many T4straight books as a teenager trying to squeeze out a drop of feeling seen and understood 😂 (some that would more likely be classified as straight4straight ABOUT trans people lol). There's something so cathartic about talking to other trans people about similar experiences/feelings we've had. I love my cis friends but let's be real... they typically end up trans in the end anyway 😂😂 we're drawn to each other!
I feel like even outside of the specific T4T context, much of this rests on the idea of fetishism as necessarily objectification (in the sense of dehumanization). Fetishism as such is value neutral when objects or actions are involved (i.e. not humans, like a fetish for shoes). It gets murky when humans themselves become part of the fetish, because to what degree are we, in the fetishization, dehumanizing a person? Is there a difference when the fetish is part of a person's body (like a fetish for red hair), or of their identity (like a race fetish), or something that intertwines both? I'd argue it's possible to both fetishize an aspect of a person without dehumanizing the entire person, but are most of us capable of that? Especially when the person being fetishized is already commonly dehumanized in the broader culture we exist in? How much does it matter? This is such an interesting discussion on its own, could go on forever.
Alphabet soup : WAAAAHHHHH NOBODY WANTS ME NOBODY PAYS ATTENTION TO ME IM UNDATABLE Also Alphabet soup : WAAAAAHHHH SOMEONE LIKES MY FEATURES AND WANTS TO DATE ME ICK NASTY YUCK Mental disorder.
I just have more fun and feel more kinship with people who have a bit more "gender experience". For me, other nonbinary people understand some things more fully, like gendered restrooms and doing the math of your gender presentation that day + where it is (work, public, etc) + who else is there + dysphoria and confidence levels to pick which bathroom to use. It's freeing when I don't have to explain my feelings and thought processes so explicitly and translate them for a cis worldview, and there's a level of comfort and safety that comes with being with another trans person that makes it so much easier to be vunerable and intimate. I have less fear of judgement, i can have deeper conversations, i can say "I'm not that kind of girl" and rest assured knowing we both understand I'm using the word girl for fun, even though I'm not one! Edit: just saw a comment about beauty standards and t4t, and that is huge to me. Bodies have such different standards (both in beauty and just what is considered 'normal') in trans and cis spaces. Trans beauty is so different and expansive and creative and rooted in choices and growth, and trying to fit that into cis beauty standards is difficult without losing some of the depth. Similarly, trying to regulate how trans people love each other to one "right" way seems like it could cut out a lot of the beautiful ways that we care for & support each other.
For me, I think that trans people (especially radically queer trans people) speak the language of gender-fuckery natively, while even the best of cis allies are learning as they go. If someone tells me their pronouns, my brain is using those pronouns. Whereas for my mom, who is an absolute Ride or Die ally, still slips up. Because in her head, she conjures the sentence in Cis, then translates to Trans.
I'm into some fucky gender shit in sex. I would never tell a 100% cis person about it, because there's the inevitable subconscious idea that it has some deeper meaning about me faking my gender or something. There's the chance that that stuff spills into non-sex time, which is not okay. Whereas, if I told this to a queer partner, most would be cool and ask follow-up questions about who, what, when, where, and why this is ok for me.
thinking of gender-fuckery as a language is such !!! a good and interesting comparison, i rly appreciate that, thank you!!
I love how you put this and agree 100% wow
This is so well said. As a queer cis person, it took me a long time and many slip ups with pronouns - I was absolutely "translating to trans" in the same way I translate English to Spanish as a non-fluent speaker. At this point I've spent enough time around trans people (and watching trans creators) that I find it a lot easier to just automatically get pronouns right etc. While I'll obviously never fully understand what it's like to not be cis, I think the way you worded this makes so much sense and I really appreciate your comment! PS I'm so glad your mom is such an awesome ally!
I'm cis but I also notice how to a lot of cis people basic things like respecting pronouns is actually hard?? Like some of them will slip up and then go "oh I'm sorry 🥺🥺 it's just, this pronoun stuff is so hard 😩" or stuff like "is he like an actual boy? Sorry I mean like is he a boy that's a girl? A girl-boy?" (Bitch why can't u just say trans it's one word ffs) or theyd be talking abt a trans guy and go "he.. she.. I'm actually not sure how should I refer to her" and like SHUT. T.F. UP. this stuff is so easy and obvious to me I literally can't see how someone else could not get it????? And I used to get so furious about these situations which I absolutely shouldn't have (since I'm cis) but I really thought they're all doing it for attention cuz there's no wayyyy they don't get it, and well I still think some of them (most of them) are but apparently there are people that are actually genuinely confused but well-meaning (still kinda blows my mind) and I should prob encourage them to learn rather than get mad at them-
@@veryfancypigeon My high school cis friend who broke up with her boyfriend for not telling her he's trans until like a month in and then came into school and told everyone it was her "girlfriend"... and everytime I glared at her when she misgendered him she'd say "it's confusing, okay?!?!" T.T
As a cis person it seems natural to me that trans people might want to be in relationships with other trans people if for no other reason than to be with someone who emotionally understands what it was like to grow up as trans. Forgive my ignorance but I'm actually surprised to learn that there is enough concern that it could be seen as something potentially problematic that this needs to be specifically argued against
I think some people make the mistake of thinking that trans folks who seek out other trans folks romantically or sexually do so because of fetishising the other trans person's genitals or other gender incongruent traits (which is something that cis people who are chasers do, in a way where they hyperfixate on specific body parts of their partner which may cause dysphoria or in a way that may invalidate the other person's gender). They think that trans people who seek out other trans people do so for the same reasons that cis chasers do. In reality, a lot of us trans folks are just exhausted and frustrated at having to constantly educate cis people and want to date other trans people who would understand our experience and relate to us. So you're right, I think that is the main reason why some trans people prefer dating other trans people. Being T4T can mean supporting each other's transition goals, understanding each other's dysphoria, understanding each other's lived experience. A lot of the time trans people are more mindful of their partner's dysphoria triggers than cis people tend to be, and they tend to check up more on what is okay and what isn't. As a trans person, I tend to date other trans people, though it's never actually been intentional on my part, it's just that the people that tend to gravitate towards me happen to be trans too a lot of the time. I'm not opposed to dating cis people, but the majority of cis people I met were uneducated on trans issues.
Based
literally, it is such a unique and traumatizing experience in so many ways that cis-people often refuse to believe. and trans people often read trans people better, and respond in good ways. I have met cis-people who do but usually the majority of their friends are trans and that is why lol.
Yeah. For me, the idea of being in a t4t relationship really appeals, largely because then you don't have to teach your partner so much -- about being trans, and probably even undoing some biases under the surface along the way.
@@b4stard_sweet exactly, and the ones who still have bad beliefs tend to be easier to talk to and deradicalize
I don't think t4t is inherently fetish-y. In fact, fetishization is probably/definitely the vast minority. I like the idea of dating another trans guy, because I tend to feel infinitely more comfortable and validated around other trans people as opposed to cis people, and specifically cis guys. I wouldn't be opposed to dating a woman, cis or trans, or a non-binary person, but I definitely prefer guys, and cis men scare me a lot of the time. and I feel like most other t4t people would agree, if not for that exact reason but similar reasons. For me its the same reason I'd much rather date another autistic person, cause I feel like they'd understand me better and I wouldn't feel guilty for some of my "quirks." Unfortunately there's always gonna be fetish-y creepers in any community, just sucks that it's possible to find a chaser in your own community.
@@coleharding9439
Wrong place to bring that nonsense mate, trans men _are_ real men.
Holy shit I think I figured my romantic orientation after reading this comment like this is what I needed to hear and now everything makes so much sense
I'm a nonbinary lesbian and I naturally gravitate towards other trans people tbh. I'm currently in a t4t relationship with a trans girl and it just feels so much safer than any experiences with cis girls. She actually takes my dysphoria seriously and respects my name, pronouns, all of that. It's just so much more comfortable being with her for no reason other than we see eye to eye on very important things to me.
as a fellow nb lesbian this made me so happy to read, that sounds lovely
A person in my local community would always cough under her breath that I was a chaser whenever I described myself as t4t because she didn't see me as a trans person. Not being seen as a trans person by most people because I'm a femme nonbinary person who is afab is the main reason Im t4t. A lot of cis people simply will not see me as trans and I can't be in a relationship with someone who uses my pronouns to my face but views me as a girl in their head. Not that trans people will always accept me but it always feels safer and more understanding
I’m sorry, fam. That sucks, and you are never deserving of it.
Hey I’m sorry but I think I’m the kind of cis person you’re talking about. I just don’t know how to fix that though, do you have some advice?
@@IgnorantSeekerI'm not OP but my general advice is to spend time with trans people and consuming content (like Ashton's) that's made with trans people in mind. The way you get rid of the problem of "using the right pronouns to their face but seeing them as their assigned gender in your head" problem is to just see and interact with a large variety of gender presentations and identities. Eventually, you'll adjust. You start seeing gender as kind of arbitrary and the easiest thing to do is wait for people to tell you how they want you to see them, because your instinctive guess can be wrong, and if you spend a lot of time in queer spaces it can be wrong VERY OFTEN so you just... stop listening to it.
Don't beat yourself up about thoughts in the meantime though. Thoughts are something you have almost no control over and they don't mean you're a bad person or a bad ally. Your actions are what count. If you're consistently using the right pronouns, the trans people in your life will appreciate it regardless.
@@AngelOfTheLord67 thank you for this. I'm in the same situation and I'm trying to unlearn this mindset
i’ve definitely heard of more fem or more masc leaning non-binary people being like completely erased from the “trans label”. I’m a trans masc guy so i dont fully understand it because it’s not my experience but i feel like i can understand more than cis people yk? i hope you find someone who fully loves and cares about you because you deserve it :]
I've usually heard of t4t being due to safety and relatability reasons.
Yeah those are most of the reasons I've heard as well. At least T4T romantic/sexual relationships, he did specify that he was including content and platonic relationships as well.
Yeah that’s what I think of when I hear t4t
I think another important element is like sexual compatibility- a lot of trans people have s*x in ways that isn't really compatible with the way that most cis people have sex, like I don't have s*x with cis people unless they're kinky or involved in the kink community because I don't have sex in a way thats compatible with most cis people unless theyve expanded their idea of what sex looks like beyond the vanilla cishet standard. It's a lot easier/more inviting to navigate sexual wants and desires, and express discomfort with someone whos also marginalized due to their gender identity.
VERY real!! i didn’t want to talk too much abt sex in this vid bc of youtube’s guidelines but this is certainly a significant factor for a lot of people !
Yeah, same. Cis people kinda have sx to own each other, like their way of doing stuff is more utilitarian than an exploration of feelings. So hellraiser or nothing for me. Either we play with the cube or just go home because cis pp just be doing basic stuff.
This is def thing! I don’t know think it has to do with cis people specifically but most are this way because of conditioning and like… not questioning or exploring anything. My queer niece (who is married to a cis dude) and I had a convo about this: how everyone is apparently just a bunch of pillow princesses 😆 and expects fantastic sex to just… happen… and then complain about it. Foreplay is sex to me, penetration is not required, and sex is fun and freaky and weird and wonderful and should always be an adventure. But I guess that’s something that gets discovered when you’re used to doing the “unconventional”.
@@NinaGothMambaNegra cis people are a LARGE group. Like most of society. It would be incorrect to frame all cis people as if they're all the same
"T4T is fetishistic" is one of those opinions that r only developed by people who are chronically online and don't witness how the ideas they critique actually function in the real world. Like, I feel like if they actually had conversations with trans people in/seeking relationships with other trans people they'd find it painfully difficult to see it as dehumanizing
It's a terf talking point tbh
I can kinda sorta see how it's possible. Like, it's not impossible for trans people to have bad ideas. But the idea that it's somehow a serious concern that must be considered broadly to determine whether trans people only wanting to date other trans people is "problematic" is... Bizarre. And yeah, transphobic.
i personally just feel so much more comfortable around people who i know have similar experiences as me (like neurodivergent and/or queer people) so i feel like t4t is a completely understandable desire?? for a partner who shares such a integral experience with yourself???
I've been t4t for like 3-4 years now (half on purpose and half because that's just how it's gone, cis people's beauty standards are weird) and I don't know that I've dated chasers per se BUT there's just this like "oh..." feeling when you've been this newly-t4t transmasc's partner for like a month and they show you their twitter and nearly every single original post for MONTHS before they met you is just "i want girl dick i want girl dick girl dick's so hot i want girl dick." And then "Oh we're just together because I was the first transfem willing to sleep with you"
In my experience, once someone actually KNOWS more trans people (specifically in real life), that particular objectification sort of goes away a lot (unless they're particularly obtuse, which I've also had to run-for-the-hills from a couple times). But it is something to consider, I guess? It probably also goes the other way, but most of the transfems I've dated have been lesbians or sapphic leaning, so I don't really see that side of things.
And sidenote to the rest of that, but one of my friends has been organizing a t4t... festivities... and the planning around that has been just sort of fun and even a little silly in a way that my friends who date cis people just don't experience in their group-intimacy experiences.
I do absolutely know what you're talkin about, but I will say i have experienced it the other way quite a few times, i.e trans fems who fixate on trans mascs, especially pre-t ones.. I can just says its equally as off-putting and weird, especially when they hyperfocus on your typically "feminized" traits.
Bu i think its like what ashton said, that it comes from a pretty different place? I feel like a lot of trans peple with fixations on other trans people, especially if that person is a different gender, is because they both covet how that person IS and how they exist in the world, and desire a closeness to transness and trans sex that makes them feel seen. Sometimes it just manifests in a super toxic way, unfortunately.
There are also predators who target specific kinds of people, but theres predators in every community and that comes from an entirely different mindset and desire hoo boy
this video made me realize how as a two-spirit afro-indigenous dude i love that my white gf is non binary and a commie cause i don't gotta explain the way colonialization affected gender roles. it's also really cool to start dating someone at the start of their transition cause it feels like i'm watching her grow into the person she wants to be
lmfao dude i was reading this comment and i was like lol that sounds like riley and then i saw it WAS you
i read freud’s essay the sexual aberrations for the first time in a sexuality class this year and i was really shocked to learn the etymology of the word fetish. idk if freud coined it himself but he explains that the sexual term is in reference to “savages” worshipping their “false idols” (called fetishes) instead of the “legitimate” christian god. i’m black so my first thought was just “not cool, dude” lol. but on a more serious note, i think that cultural context contributes to it feeling like such a dirty word
yeah, fetish is literally the anthropological term for a physical object that is viewed as having supernatural abilities or being embodied by a god or spirit and venerated as such. While it obviously started out as a horrendously racist term used to other non christian belief systems, the sacrament in church services fits the definition. And the varius relics and body parts of Catholic saints definitely do
I always just took it to mean “imbued with a non-inherent meaning”
I think most of Freud has been debunked by modern psychology, I feel he put alot of his own twisted ideas into his work, mainly stemming from his obsession with his mother .... don't Google that last bit for your own sanity
In regards to around 32:00 noting that people unfortunately aren’t always safe with a t4t relationship: I definitely glorified my first t4t relationship (while 15 and newly out) to a point where I didn’t enforce my own boundaries well. Basically I was with a trans girl(also newly out) who would often compliment my(trans guy) “feminine features” and how she envied them. That made me really dysphoric but I was young and thought “well that’s her own dysphoria she can’t help it”.
- I just want to remind any young trans person that your boundaries should be respected no matter what and another trans persons dysphoria is no excuse for making you uncomfortable.
On the flip side after that I had a relationship with another trans guy that made me be more at peace with my own transness. I saw so many of the features in him that I disliked in myself and found them both beautiful and masculine. That love and attraction allowed me to disengage with the socially normative way of viewing masculinity, gender and beauty in such a gentle sweet way.
Also you’re completely on point with the power dynamic and marginalisation playing a huge role in why chasers are bad and fetish-y while t4t is not - from my experience t4t friendships and friend groups can especially feel comforting and liberating and I do seek out trans friends because of that shared connection and not having to do the “gender 101 talk” lol.
Anyways great video and whoever is reading this I hope you have a great day :)
Yeah my transfem ex loved to try to feminize me and then call me gender goals. People who are in a bad headspace, and a lot of trans people unfortunately are, can sometimes really lack empathy. Sometimes the relatability of t4t can lead to being hurt and fucked up in a deeper way I think.
I've always believed that your own insecurities are no reason to make other people feel bad, even if they have something you want, well said. I agree w/ the whole comment, too--sometimes it's just easier, not to mention healing, to be around people who get it.
And thanks for saying that abt boundaries. We all, especially the kids, need to remember that. It's kind of like how wlw relationships get glorified as automatically wonderful and that's just dangerous thinking :/ and a bit dehumanizing if you think about it.
Also that's a lovely thing to hear about, your better relationship and how it helped you 😊 I've found it to be true that one of the best ways to feel better about yourself and rewire your thinking is by admiring other ppl :)
And you have a great day too :)
I totally relate to how you described the love changing your perspective, in so little words. I hope you have a great day as well ❤
Wanted to add my experience as a trans guy dating a trans woman who has sometimes commented about things that make me dysphoric in a positive way (oh your skin is so soft) bc they may be something that she envies. We have a great relationship with wonderful communication. She just stops mentioning it. It's that simple. Everyone should respect your boundaries, especially other trans people. Sometimes when we talk about our experiences, it's like looking into a mirror. There are things about feminity that i don't think i could have appreciated until she talks about how she relates to it. And vice versa. A positive T4T relationship can change your whole outlook on life. I'm sorry y'all had bad experiences
I am a trans guy and had some bad experiences with trans women (as friends or aquiaintances) doing stuff similar to what you mention, but I am also dating a trans woman and luckily I have completely no issues with them :) They never point out aspects that made me dysphoric but at the same time they don't make it seem like I have to be masculine either. It just doesn't matter, they like me for me and not for my body.
I’m in a t4t relationship (we’re both nonbinary lesbians) but neither of us were really searching for a trans partner. Personally, I wasn’t really looking for a relationship at all. That might have something to do with the fact that I’m asexual and arospec though. We kinda just ended up falling in love because we have been friends for so long. We met when we both thought we were straight girls and have been there for each other through basically our whole queer self discoveries or whatever. I don’t really know where I was going with this. Most of my friends are also trans, this wasn’t on purpose, we all just ended up together somehow. I think it’s nice.
I have literally the exact same story?? My partner and I met as cishet girls, were friends for years, and are now ace and arospec nonbinary lesbians celebrating our 8 year anniversary. And so many of our friends also came out as trans so we have a very trans group. So cool to hear someone else has had the same experience! 💜
I wish I had trans friends, all my friends are cis and it’s really difficult to find that relatability. I’ve dated cis girls as a cis lesbian, but since realising I’m non binary I haven’t dated anyone at all. Hearing about relationships like yours is really nice, and I hope in the future I could have a relationship like what you have with your partner. I wish the two of you the best, thank you for sharing your story :)
!!! I thought myself aroace until i realized my feelings for my best friend in discord were. not quite platonic. and part of us being so close was the fact that were both trans guys. dating him meant joining his polycule and by doing so i got two more partners out of it, plus a metamour - my bf is a gnc trans man, my datemate is transfem, my joyfriend is nonbinary and on T, and my metamour (joyfriend’s spouse) is genderfluid! none of us are cis, and im so happy i stumbled into such queer love. The hardest part is living so far away from them all 😭 I’ve visited joyfriend and metamour across the country, but bf and datemate live on the other side of the world :(
@@theamarsh4715 That's amazing! My QPR and I became friends 6 years ago when we both thought we were cis and I hadn't figured out I was arospecace and now we're over a year into a QPR. It's been really nice and so encouraging to hear of someone who's been in a relationship with a fellow arospecace for so long
How you can be nonbinary and a lesbian? "Lesbian" directly implies that there are 2 women in a relationship. So, calling yourself a lesbian, you de facto call yourself a woman. Doesn't it give you gender dysphoria?
Please, don't appropriate term which doesn't belong to you at all. The term for nonbinary folks is "queer".
We are getting spoiled with all this new Ashton content. 😊
For real 🔥
u all are so nice to me
@@graveyardpansy I'm sure many others like myself thoroughly enjoy your content. I've never been the “I'm obsessed with celebrities” type, but I absolutely adore you. Also.. the username “graveyardpansy” is rad.
my take: t4t isn't inherently fetish-y. most of the time it isn't, actually. unfortunately i've met a lot of t4t trans people who are kinda creepy. who see my worth as a "boy with pussy"(which especially hurts as a bottom dysphoric trans guy), but that's just bad luck for me :(
Sorry to hear that pal, i hope you could find someone that isn't like that, and that you actually feel comfortable with 💙
@@best_of_ant thank you 💚
@@meowman69420❤
Same, I've met T4T trans people that have definetley made me uncomfortable because it feels like all they see me as is trans as if thats my whole person.
@@ashleyashleym2969 yeah that too. i hate being boiled down to my transness, being treated like that's my most important part. if someone really loved me then it wouldn't matter if i was cis or trans y'know
(obviously no hate for t4t people i just have baggage lol. and i know that most t4t people are normal and won't boil me down to one trait. just sucks when trans people *do* do that)
So my body is mostly shaped the way people expect for a woman (which I am...kind of, sometimes), but this issue speaks a lot to my experience as a fat person.
I understand people wanting to be cautious, but at the same time the difference between a chaser and someone who just...likes big folks is pretty obvious. The latter will know or want to learn how being fat shapes my life and experience. They'll care about how their interaction with my body makes me feel. They’ll want me to see the beauty in myself that they see and enjoy their appreciation of my body.
Chasers, on the other hand, won't care if they provoke shame or discomfort. They might even do it on purpose. They’ll act entitled to my body and my time and often act as if I should be grateful they even look at me. They often see their attraction to me as dirty and shameful and project that disgust onto me, considering me worthy of degradation and disrespect.
Most of what I see in t4t discussions is very obviously not that.
I like that you pointed to fetishes not being an inherently bad thing. the difference between fetisihization that comes with chasers and other fetishes is that chasers fetishize a persons identity, and by doing so turns that persons identity into a comodity for themselves. which strips that person of their identity and personhood. in some ways t4t is about the opposite of this fetishization because for many t4t is a form of safeguarding from this fetishization by virtue of mutual understanding of gender and a shared experience moving through the world. that is not to say that individual people or relationships cannot have the same fetishization. it is possible for a trans person to fetishize another trans person the way chasers do, but I see that the same way that trans people can be transphobes: trans people are not immune to taking part in harmful societal standards and individual behaviours towards other trans people or the trans community. however while that is true trans people are less likely to do that. and saying t4t is fetishization would (in my opinion) be equivalent to saying the trans community is transphobic because there are transphobic trans people.
a huge distinction between chasers view of trans people and t4t peoples view of trans people lies in the commodifying that happens. chasers seek a specific gratification from trans people as a commodity whereas t4t people (often) seek a relationship on an equal footing and understanding of eachothers humanity.
thank you for this video!
Me when the "deep dive" is not at least 3 hours long 3:
Honey you're wanting a graduation thesis
lmaooo, I just assume every deep dive vid I click on is 1+ hour and end up like “oh, gotta find another one then” when it ends sooner than expected xD
I’ve had to deal with a lot of chasers but I also feel that a lot of ppl frame any desire for a trans person as inherently fetishistic. I often get the impression that if anyone were to desire my type of body it would make them a chaser. I don’t necessarily want to be wanted FOR my transness, but the thought of being wanted in SPITE of it sounds exhausting at this point. I’ve seen a lot of cis ppl accused of being chasers simply because when asked if they’d date a trans person they enthusiastically said they would. It does feel like it comes from a place of internalized transphobia or trauma at times. Earlier in my transition I hoped for ppl’s apathy. But more and more lately I’m wishing for other’s active interest in the type of body I have, and not sure where the exact lines between chaser & non-chaser are. I’m somewhat conflicted.
Real
I mean I think one thing that needs to be said is that although often times T4T is NOT fetisihsation, it can be. And there are trans people who are T4T who do fetishise other trans people and go about that in the way that cis chasers do. These people are the minority of T4T for sure, they're not common at all, but they do exist.
And dont get me wrong I love T4T content and T4T friendships, I have plenty of them and I enjoy it, but I think it's important to recognize that as a trans person we are not immune to transphobia and fetishizing other trans people.
absolutely - there's a few other comments about that too, and i talk abt it a bit at the end of the video. i do wish i'd put it further forward in the video bc i think it's such an important aspect of the discussion, thank you for emphasising it!!
As someone (transmasc Butch) who’s mostly been with other non binary/trans ppl, I’ve never encountered fetishization. I have encountered shitty ppl though- I feel it’s important to remember trans ppl can also be fucked up/toxic/abusive. While I do believe t4t is safer in most of cases, it doesn’t guarantee a Good relationship.
T4T can also encourage self love in my experience. Learning to allow myself to find other trans people hot and to love them has helped me do the same to myself. T4T has helped me explore my own gender fuckery and identity. I am not exclusively T4T, but i will say that my T4T experiences feel notably safer and fun than with cis people. With cis people it feels like they love or are attracted to me despite my transness. With trans people it feels like they recognize that part of me and love it just as much as any other part of me. Geing GNC and trans means that with cis people i am constantly explaining myself, in t4t relationships it's appreciated and i don't feel fetishized for being a trans guy in a dress. I feel like regardless of the way i present they still see me as who i am- like i don't have to perform and earn respect. If being t4t is a fetish, i don't think it's a harmful one
If I could print a comment on my forehead it'd be this one lol 💚
Trying to explain to cis ppl that wearing a skirt doesn't mean I'm declaring a change to my gender is the Least complicated part of the genderfkery and even with just that I get a lot of eyes glazing over. I don't even know how to begin to tell someone that they can love my transness with the rest of me at the same time as understanding that it does also cause me pain. But with most trans ppl, you can just say that and they know what you mean, it's kinda magical.
Thanku for this comment ❤️ the line about cis people loving you despite being trans hit hard ❤️
i don't think being t4t is inherently fetishy, especially when u hear to a lot of t4t ppls reasoning as to why they are. a lot of t4t ppl cite safety and things like that which i totally understand and respect. for me though most of the t4t ppl i've come across go about it. insensitively?? somewhere around there lol. being very blatantly uninterested in me until they find out i'm trans, which to me feels just as shallow as when a cis person is interested in me n then immediately drops me when they find out i'm trans. like i understand your dating pool is smaller but 💀 also them assuming we'd be comfortable with the same things in a sexual context just because we're both the same flavor of trans 😐 love my t4t homies i'm just saying to keep in mind not to do things like that, just bc we're both trans doesn't mean we feel the same way about our transness or that you can assume everything and not have to communicate!!
it does make sense to me. im cis but im autistic and i do tend to gravitate to other autistics and form friendships with them rather than neurotypicals. i imagine its similar. there's some things only people who have lived through the same experiences can understand and connect that way.
Thank you. I've been experiencing a lot of guilt and fear over the idea that I might be fetishizing other transgender people but honestly I just want to celebrate the different ways humans can be both in my life and in my art without shying away from the sexual parts of ourselves.
When I was a younger trans person, I really hated myself and I would get mad at other trans people if they didn't hate themselves. As I got older more of my friends also came out as trans and I gained a community of trans people like me and so I became more open to being around trans people. Now I'm in a t4t relationship and I've felt so much better. I find my and my girlfriends relationship beautiful and we can understand each other better than cis people could ever.
Just taking a moment to appreciate the fact that you added proper captions so deaf people (like me) can watch your videos. I feel like I get smarter every time I watch your essay style videos.
I'm not trans or anything, but I think in 2023 everyone should at least know the basics of these things, especially since in the last year I've made some trans and non-binary friends.
I don't think it's weird at all for transgender people to want to date people with similar experiences. It's like if you're someone who only speaks English, you might only want to date people who can speak English so you can understand each other. I think it's completely normal to want to have a partner who understands you whether that be language or major life experience. I don't even understand why that might be controversial because I think most people do that to some degree.
u shouldn’t have to thank me for captions, they should be a given on every piece of audio content, but you’re welcome nonetheless!!
I think another reason some trans ppl think t4t is fetishizing is gender dysphoria. Like they get a bad reaction from seeing ppl say "boy pussy" or "girl dick" (even when those terms are not being unconsensually used on anyone) and they then confuse their disgust (from gender dysphoria) with genuinely thinking it's a bad thing.
i'm a nonbinary lesbian and i've been with both cis folx and trans folx, but my current partner is also nonbinary and i swear the t4t dynamic feels so liberating. after getting top surgery, they were there for me in a way i never expected anyone to be, they still admire my scars and take note at how well they're healing after almost 2 years post-op. tbh, our appreciation of each other's gender expressions and incongruent gender features is part of the reason we're so happy together. we feel so safe and loved in a way we never felt with our previous cis partners. anyway trans folx are so slay, have a wonderful day/night yall 🏳⚧💘
I definitely prefer t4t relationships and am in one now but none of them have really lived up to the ideal. It's a special from of rejection when your trans partner doesn't understand your gender identity.
The level of understanding in T4T is so beautiful, my enby partner sees me as the woman I am and I see them as the wonderfully not guy not girl all hottie they are
I think a major component of fetishization as I’ve experienced it is a projection of the person’s own desires and expectations onto another person and wanting them to be an avatar of those desires. And in that sense, for a chaser, I’m “interchangeable” with any other transfem person (or fat person or a nonwhite person). And this is something that’s felt even when you happen to be into the same type of encounter as chasers are, because they can’t help but let you know through their behavior and words.
I’m gonna go in a bit deeper so CW for racial fetishization, trans fetishization, porn, very brief mention of consensual nonconsent
To give an example, when I used to present as a man lots of white cis men assumed I’m a top because I’m middle eastern (I’m not), and obviously that’s distressing, especially due to my dysphoria. But talking to a Chinese friend who happens to be bottom and a sub, fitting those expectations can be just as alienating, because you just know you’re interchangeable with any other “Asian bottom”.
So like, I think it’s not impossible to have that attitude towards others even if you’re in the same marginalized group. And there are trans people who kinda expected me to be *their* expectation of what a nonbinary/transfem person must be like.
But there’s also the added layer of complexity, which is denial, and how “transness as a fetish” is a LOT of people’s first exposure to transness (bc of porn), and people sometimes feel “safer” psychologically to categorize their own transness and that of others as a “fetish” because it feels like it’s confined within the constraints of “something they do when they’re horny” and it doesn’t have broader implications about their social life. So they consider it a fetish, use the language of fetish to describe it, but it really is just denial lol.
There’s actually a similar phenomenon with queer people (specifically cis queer men, and bi/pan men) where they see the non-hetero components of their sexuality as a “fetish” initially when they start exploring their sexuality. It’s why porn genres like “forced gay” exist (where a super hot girl “convinces” or “forces” a guy to do “gay” stuff), it’s kind of… an erotic expression of a real anxiety, while reassuring the person that “it’s okay it doesn’t have any deeper implications”. I’ve actually had conversations with guys like that, and it’s.. super easy to make them realize that this view of their own sexuality makes them extremely lonely.
idk I’m rambling but I guess it’s all just complicated.
Specifically about finding gender incongruent features attractive and worthy of celebration I definitely find other trans fems bodies extremely attractive and in finding them attractive it’s really helped me find beauty in my own body. But even though I’m generally much more into femininity sexually, and as a transfem acquiring boobs has been one of the biggest joys of my life, I LOVE seeing top surgery scars. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy and happy. Because even though it’s an aspect of gender presentation I would never want for myself, or find particularly attractive in others, it’s such a clear and out there representation of someone affirming their gender and living in their truth that seeing someone display them proudly gives me big old snuggly second hand trans joy and makes me feel immensely happy for them
When I came out as transgender, it basically destroyed my marriage.
You'd think that would be kind of a given, right?, you would assume that if I was married to a woman while presenting as a guy , then she would have likely have been straight, and her reason for leaving would have been that she's not attracted to women, or femininity in general.
That's where it get's weird.
My wife identified as pansexual, I've always been incredibly feminine in my presentation, and the subject of "getting a sex change" (i didn't know any better back then, okay?, it's part of the reason I never actually transitioned when I was younger) has come up from time to time as far back as when we were in college together.
She always told me she would stay if I transitioned, because she's pan! she likes guys and girls!, this didn't come out of nowhere. She encouraged my cross dressing, and always heaped praise on my... less than masculine? personality.
Turns out that the moment It became real- not just dressing up- the moment I started talking changing my name, using different pronouns, especially taking HRT, she had to drop the act.
My wife had always had a hidden terf streak. She put on the front of an ally for all of our progressive queer friends- but in reality she "never really understood transgenderism" and *hated* trans women in particular. She found trans men attractive, but only in so far as they were (her words not mine) "basically the butchest lesbians you can find!".
We tried to make it work, but every few weeks she would just go right back to square one, show she had learned nothing, and start actively being transphobic to me.
I had an 11 year relationship burn to the ground, to the tune of my closest friend reeling off terf talking points at me, showing me clips from conservative figures *destroying transgenderism*, turning all of my friends against me, and telling me I was a freak the entire time.
I'm never going to have a long term relationship ever again, but when I'm getting close to people from now on, not just hooking up- it's probably always going to be t4t. Because I just can't trust cis people to understand what I am, and not behave massively unpredictably in response to my transgender nature.
That’s awful. No one deserves to go through that ever ❤
@@anothernerd6464 Yeah.
For what it's worth I've been seeing other trans people, mostly other trans girls, since the separation, and it's been a really good time!
meeting my first trans friend opened up my whole life. i have never felt as comfortable in my gender and body as i did around him, and it was while spending time with him that i came to accept and even love being transmasc. it was the first time i felt like i was fully seen and understood in a way i didn’t know i’d been lacking for so many years. the joy and beauty of being trans is incomparable and i hope every trans person can experience it
I class myself as T4T because I just feel more understood with other trans people. There's an unspoken thing there and it's as simple as that for me
thank you for this video! i haven't heard t4t used more broadly about community and art but i really like this usage. purity culture really does taint so many conversations. as an asexual person, it astonishes me how society will tell people sex and desire is gross and shameful, but as soon as I say yeah, i don't have these desires and am sex-repulsed, society wants to shame me for that too. it's truly about control and denying autonomy to try to force people into a normative role. people defying purity culture by understanding the range and types of desire they experience and embracing that with no shame can create friction when purity culture values are present.
I personally am at this point in my life where I would only do t4t. All my partners have been cis and they just don't get it, they don't understand why I'm not comfortable with certain things that are just so natural for them. Plus with the current climate of transphobia I feel like I need someone to be a hundred precent safe and who I know isn't gonna turn against me.
enby4enbies anyone
🙋🏻🙋🏻 me and my partner are both non binary 💞
Not in principle but in practice mostly yeah
❤ yes! enbies are great, and i love being one :)
This reminds me of a few essays by Julia Serano where she challenges the idea that attraction to features associated with transness is inherently fetishizing. I don't think I completely agree with all her takes on the topic, but it did get me thinking a lot. I was definitely implicitly holding the assumption that it was gross for a person to be attracted to the features I have as a result of being trans, and I had never really investigated that idea before.
One thing I thought about while mulling over that article was how I think our dysphoria contributes a lot to our vigilance surrounding fetishization. For example, I felt really revolted by the idea of a person enjoying the fact that I have a bonus hole, and I would have chalked that up to the fact that it felt fetishizing. But then I realized that I didn't have the same reaction to the thought of someone being into my t-dick. And it dawned on me that the difference was that the bonus hole gives me dysphoria, the t-dick feels affirming to my gender.
And that, to me, is a confusing line to walk - because I don't necessarily mind the general idea of someone being attracted to my transness, I really don't want them to be in to any of the things that make me dysphoric.
I wonder if some of the people who are criticizing t4t are experiencing the same thing. If you wish a particular part of your body was different, or maybe you wish you weren't trans altogether, the idea of someone being attracted to that part of you is reflexively revolting. And it feels dehumanizing, because to you it would be - it wouldn't be fun for you to take part in that dynamic, so another person would just be extracting pleasure from you while you're not enjoying it. No person who was respecting you as a human being could be turned on in that situation.
Obviously, I know genuine chasers are all too common. I have been on Grindr. But I do think it's important for us to think about what it says if we tell people it's inherently "fetishizing" to be attracted to trans bodies.
As you said, the issue is when people focus on the transness to the exclusion of all else, and don't respect the full humanity of the involved person.
Idk, this is a lot of rambly thoughts but it's late and this was a really interesting video so I guess I just had a lot to say about it all lol.
i would consider myself to be t4t in that i desire relationships (platonic or otherwise) primarily with other trans people because i want to be understood in a way that cis people simply cannot understand me. when my cis friend says "omg congrats you're gonna come back to school with a deep voice and a beard lol" in response to me saying i started T, they don't understand that T doesn't work immediately, and their comment made me feel kinda weird because i *won't* have a deep voice or facial hair after 1 month and a half on T. with my cis friends, i always feel the risk of having to explain how trans identities or hormones or whatever work. even if a trans friend said the exact same thing, i wouldn't feel so awkward because they're way less likely to react with frantic apologies and i know that there is still some level of implicit understanding of my transness
thanks for the video, i certainly learned some things about fetishization, especially with the difference between fetishizing something as a part of a whole person as opposed to with no regard to the person
this also was helpful for distinguishing between chasers wanting to get topped by a girl with dick versus actual trans people celebrating our bodies in defiance of cisheteronormativity
Re: chaser discourse - the 90s trans zine Gendertrash noted a difference between 'chasers' (cis people who fetishize trans people) and those who are 'gender oriented' (cis people who are open to loving and living in community with trans people). I personally find this distinction very useful and Gendertrash is an amazing t4t resource that I wish more trans people knew about. In general I find that late 80s/early 90s trans culture has many useful pieces of community knowledge that didnt get passed down (for obvious reasons)
i LOVE gendertrash, thank you for mentioning this! i believe most of gendertrash is available on QZAP for anything interested!
Depending on who you ask I'm technically in a t4t relationship (going on 3 years now) and before i realized i was nonbinary my transfem partner was really bothered by the messaging in some more insular trans sapphic spaces that basically they could never have a fulfilling relationship with a cis women because they would never see them as women, even if they say they do. i remember my gf getting really pissed off at that because it went beyond cautioning about power imbalances to writing off a swathe of potential partners. i found out later that some holders of this view had a history of downplaying domestic violence between transfem partners to protect the perpetrators from cis ire. it was easy to turn an intracommunity conflict into an us vs them situation. so im glad you touched on the fact that it isnt healthy or practical to act like t4t relationships will always be safe, healthy, or free from power dynamics.
the chaser thing also kind of held off the start of my relationship because i could not process the fact that i thought i was a cis woman, that i felt an undeniable sexual attraction to and emotional interest in transfems, and that i saw a lot of messaging online that that made me a chaser. it helped later to learn that many ppl defined trans chasers as ppl who view trans ppl as sex objects first and use abusive tactics to isolate them and keep them manipulatable, for example by keeping their self esteem low or physically threatening them.
hearing u mention transmeds reminds me of one post i saw somewhere about a pair of trans men who both saw the other as women?? and were somehow still together. i cannot fathom the cognitive dissonance
I kept having the same thought when the whole "iS iT tRanSphObiC to not want to date trans people🤔🤔🤔" discourse was making it's rounds... Why do they assume we want to date them in the first place? Like if you're a transphobe who doesn't respect me or a fundamental part of my identity... why would I want to have sex with you? I think t4t kind of goes against that ethos of centering cis people and their attractions and comfort. Good video, it is an interesting conversation and topic in general
i adore your inclusion of the fact that sometimes t4t relationships are affected by other biases. that's a really great point to be made especially in a conversation like this. as a t4t person who has been in unhealthy t4t relationships, the acknowledgement of t4t relationships not being as much of a safe haven as they are sometimes presented is really important. your point about trans people possibly also having other biases is also important because as a fat transmasc, i have had multiple facets of my identity "fetishized" by other trans people. that all being said, being t4t isn't inherently "fetishistic" but t4t relationships aren't always perfect in every way. great video!
Kinda on the same point of the fetishization discussion I think a main thing with fetishization and sexualization of being trans is the aspect of how it’s non-consensual for those it’s directed at in alot of situations. That’s why I don’t think fetishization is a black and white issue of good or bad it’s more about if the person is acting on it in a safe and healthy way with whoever else is involved. like most things in kink consent is key. With chasers they definitely do it in a way that IS dehumanizing and the way people have been throwing around the term ‘chaser’ so loosely now is exhausting. You can like someone for being trans specifically cus they’re trans. I’m trans and other trans people are fucking hot man I love us
As someone who is trans, communication is just SO much easier with other trans people. Even if they aren't necessarily "good" relationships (ie hookups, friends with benefits) t4t is just so much smoother in terms of acceptance and communication. Especially when it's something I don't want to put a ton of effort in, as in hookups, t4t relationships make it easier for me and my partner to express our wants and needs. Once I'm ready for long term relationships, I think it'll change. The same can also be said for neurodivergent dating. I have a much easier time being in a relationship with someone who is neurodivergent, whether it is autism, ADHD, schizophrenia, or a depersonalization/derealization disorder. As corny as it sounds, trans people and neurodivergent people are on the same wavelength as me. I expend a lot less energy in a relationship and it's a lot less stressful to communicate with someone like me :]
T4T love saved my life. ❤
I only dated cishet guys for years. It was ok, and the concept of a chaser is incredibly nebulous. But, I'm now in a relationship with another trans woman and it does seem more fulfilling because we're more on the same wavelength. There are still things I miss from those pain in the ass guys. It's complicated.
Im willing to bet a lot of the people upset aboit t4t are the same who get upset about tje idea that a trans person might ever be attractive to a cis person
I needed this video right now. I’ve been identifying as a cis lesbian for almost 6 years now, and for the past 3 years almost I’ve been thinking deeply about my gender. Videos like this make me feel safer, and I’ve been going by they/them for 2-ish years now. My friends are currently using those pronouns for me, although they struggle with using my preferred name. Right now I’m not fully confident in going by the identity I feel comfortable with, but videos like this assure me there will be a time where I will be. Thank you for sharing this
you’re far from alone and i’m glad you’re able to explore your gender! there’s nothing wrong with taking it at your own pace :)
@@graveyardpansythank you, I really needed to hear that :’))
I’d be interested in exploring queer t4c relationships in a video. (While t4t is great and valid, don’t get me wrong, I have trouble forming them due to 1. Being gay, (homoflexible technically, but for all intents and purposes gay) and a lack of trans men in my area, let alone those who are my type, 2. Gender dysphoria that, uh, tends to internalize outward appearances (I.e. Sleeping with someone who has a bonus hole reminds me I have a bonus hole, which makes me feel bad, while sleeping with someone who doesn’t have it doesn’t make me feel bad), which 3. Leads to me having a genital preference. That said, it does seem cool.) I’m interested in the politics of queer t4c, considering a lot of it would have to deal with transphobic queer people, gatekeeping, and how queer relationships by trans people tend to be invisible. I know it’s not as “radical” as t4t, but it’s what I tend to be drawn to, personally.
I'm having a similar experience, it kinda feels nice to not feel alone. I also kinda have the same problem of gender dysphoria kinda being able to be triggered by other people, and some preferences that make it a little harder to find trans men who I'm attracted to.
that's really interesting, even though I personally feel the opposite. I think sometimes it's easy to forget how different everyone experiences life and gender, but I like seeing comments like this to remind me. Like for me, being with a cis person would just remind me that my body isn't what I want it to be and isn't considered "normal" in society, but being with another trans person makes me feel more validated and that it's okay for my body to exist the way it does. Anything can be a dysphoria trigger for some, and I also think t4c would also be a really interesting topic to cover because of that :)
this is a rly interesting thought!! i'm not sure i'm the best person to make that video - i've had quite a few partners in a handful of diff relationship styles and only one (1) has been cis. but! there is definitely a lot to explore there, i'll keep it in mind :) would definitely need a lot of community input like this video did lol
I've similarly found myself in primarily t4c queer relationships, but only because I don't know as many trans people as I know cis people, and I just haven't clicked with the trans guys or non-binary people I know romantically (I'm not attracted to women). It's interesting that you've had dysphoric experiences with people with similar bodies to you, as I think I've experienced it in the reverse (a trans guy feeling uncomfortable being with ME because my body reminded him of his body). Regardless of whether they're trans or cis, I hope you have someone you love and are feeling whole!
when i think of t4c couples who are undeniably queer the musical duo Sateen comes to mind!
Yesss. As a T4T gay transmasc, T4T discourse has left me to question my sexuality and identity, and its been damaging. Whenever I find myself being attracted to another transmasc, I stop myself from pursuing it in fear that I will prove anti-T4T folks right, that I find other transmascs attractive. In reality, I feel safe around transmascs, where cis men scare me. Transmascs understand my identity in a way most cis men will never even attempt to. And it is still taking work for me to be confident in this, that I am not some pervert, but instead just looking for people who accept me.
Just a cis person here listening and commenting for the algorithm. Love from Germany ❤
Same on all points :)
As a nonbinary transfem, I dated cishet men for a long time. I've always been out as bi but there's always been the validation aspect of dating cishet men, a kind of comphet for trans people, that if I can fit into straight society, I'm valid and accepted.
So letting go of that and going back to dating trans people has been liberating (I started off doing, my first real boyfriend in high school was trans and I dated a couple others after that).
There's also the aspect that I can date another transfem and be a top and the more masculine and dominant partner in that relationship. Cishet men expect me to always be bottom, feminine, and submissive. If I ever dated a cis woman (I never have, I've hooked up with a few though), I'd worry that I was being pressured into that more traditionally masculine role *because* I'm trans. So t4t enables gender expression and sexual flexibility in a way that dating cis people may not. (Most) trans people get it.
(I've similarly heard trans guys say they were able to explore their feminine side after they started passing. They didn't feel like they had that flexibility pre-transition.)
I don't know if I'm t4t but I just can't really see myself with a cis person lasting.
i love the trans hair dye lol. tbh the whole fit for this vid is a vibe you have great style. and i appreciate the vid ty for talking abt this, it was genuinely really heart warming awdjkna like ive heard abt t4t in passing but im really glad i learned more abt it, its really nice to feel like i can reach out to other trans ppl, its something ive been really wanting... anyway yeah great vid >:D
Personally, I find it really valuable when people I'm close with (platonic or otherwise) have seriously looked at (and often questioned) their gender identity. A lot of those people are cis, but most of them are trans. It helps them understand genderfuckery better, which helps them understand that gender is sometimes weird but in a good way, and my gender may sometimes seem weird but in a good way.
such a great video!!! u covered the power/systemic dynamics in t4t versus chaser4trans relationships so well and how they more often than not CANNOT be the same. like i said, some trans people r assholes (like any other person) and can do just as much harm as many people believe cis people can harm us, but it is so important to recognize the inherent power imbalance when its a cis chaser after a trans person (because they are zeroing in on one aspect of them and surrounding their attraction solely on that). also thanks for sharing my research!! i hope you enjoy reading the rest of it :D so many of my participants were t4t and spoke to me about the wonders of being in relationship with other trans people. it was so cathartic to hear. at the same time, there were so many participants who had great relationships with cis people as well, and there were some who had awful toxic relationships with cis AND trans people. all i can continue to say is that we all should be aware of the ways we are in relationship with each other. a relationship should inspire growth, intimacy, acknowledgement of the self, and built on mutual respect. being t4t may lead you to these relationships faster (because u will likely find someone who can inherently understand your body and experience), but its important for people to know that t4t are not inherently safe, which sucks to say because if you cannot find safety within your community, where do you go? community is built! build your community with the people who love and respect you as much as you them. anyway. i love you t4t and i hope all trans people find love and safety and community
matteo this is such a thoughtful and well-worded addition !!!! thank u so much again for ur input ur an icon
I think there’s some dissonance between “fetish” and “fetishization” that we need to discuss. The two things are NOT the same. Fetishes are just specific things or actions that turn you on, like water play or big toys. It is just a thing. And object.
Fetishization is when you take a person’s identity and boil it down TO a fetish. THAT is the issue with fetishization, that it is inherently dehumanizing to a person, objectifying them into a *thing* that turns you on.
It felt like “attraction to femininity” was the closest way of describing my sexuality as a lesbian that isn’t just “I like women” when that isn’t exclusively the case. But as I became more comfortable with my own trans identity and as I felt outcasted by patriarchal ideas of femininity, I no longer liked describing my sexuality in a binary. Now I prefer to describe my sexuality as being attracted to “queerness” which feels far more accurate, especially because I feel like queerness exists more freely while femininity still feels like a standard.
this is off topic but NICE CHRONIKO PFP
I personally do tend to lean towards t4t relationships. In my experience, it has been more about both of us understanding the same terms and other trans people are more likely to avoid terminology that would make each other dysphoric. I guess it feels like it makes me feel like we have some shared experiences and understand each other better in that way. I also tend to find it easier to talk about things that make me feel comfortable of uncomfortable in regards to my gender with a trans person than with a cis person because I know that they’ll likely understand those things or at least not push or question my insecurities in a way that make me dysphoric. I have no idea if that made any sense.
I’m trans and in a t4t relationship with my spouse and I couldn’t ever imagine being married to anyone who wasn’t trans, it’s just..easier to have a gender conversation and much more comfortable knowing that in my relationship I am seen how I want to be seen rather than how I look, especially considering I’m not physically transitioning, t4t is just… better as a whole in my opinion
T4T is something I generally only use on dating apps and I occasionally get people asking me what that means on some of those apps, except Grindr naturally. But god, fetishism of trans folk by actual chasers is something weird and I've definitely experienced even this past week.
my first relationship with another trans person was so welcoming that it led to me finding the world of t4t. i found it so beautiful that someone understood me so easily and loved me wholeheartedly. loving a trans person made me more comfortable with my own transness in a way and definitely helped me find my identity. the t4t community i’ve interacted with is very kind. i just gravitate toward and prefer queer groups.
all my experience with t4t has just been that its soo much easier to connect and feel comfortable with another trans person (regardless of what flavour be they transfem, transmasc, enby, agender whatever) than it is with the majority of cis folks. Even queer cis folks. I just find theres very often this barrier of "oh your trans, cool, whats that like?" "when did you start transitioning?" or other questions about that aspect of me. Thats not their fault, its mostly just that they've never known a trans person before and their interested. And it can be ok, when i have the energy for it. But with another trans person you not only don't have to get past that stage, you already have a connection of knowing what its like. Theres already a shared experience that you can either bond over chatting about or totally ignore because you both know they already get it. That goes for friendship just as much as sexual and romantic connections. Trans people also just inherently have much more of an understanding of how to interact with bodyparts. Like asking what parts if any are dysphoric and then just being totally fine with that without questions. For me using feminine complements for aspects of my body that might culturally be considered masculine, and even playfully sexualising aspects of my trans body i am comfortable with in a noncreepy way. These aren't behaviours that only trans people can have, ive met a few cis women who are super cool and awesome with it all. But its just soo much rarer around me. And so for someone who's still only a couple years into medical transition that just makes dating other trans and enby folks soo much easier and more comfortable. And as a transgirl who mostly dates girls in the UK, t4t significantly reduces the fear that the fem im sending a message to will turn out to be a raving turf. Luckily ive never gotten harassment like that from dating sites myself, but i know people who have, and it does add that element of anxiety. But i have had a very big difference in the number of replies i get from trans folks i message compared to cis. Maybe like one in 20 cis girls i message will reply, where its much more along the lines of one in three or four with other trans folks. And that just makes me feel unwelcome contacting cis girls. Anyway i have a wonderful girlfriend atm and she's part of a very trans polycule and im on a bunch of super trans discord servers now so i'm not in the dating app game any more thank goodness
All that being said i do have cis friends and they're cool and lovely. But theres just soo much higher hit rate and smoother journey getting to that stage with trans folks ime
There's T4T discourse?!!??/gen
Funny thing when you brought up freckles…. Disabled trans ginger here. I realized being trans was something cis people had fetishes for, and disabled people sometimes were fetishized by ambled bodies people. Didn’t know how much this would feel amplified by having red hair? How many people I’ve seen who only dates like redheaded + (insert marginalization here) combo. Just weird to me. Once noticed this person I was with who only dated redheaded trans men and was like “this feels weird man”
I’m just starting to find irl community after years of mostly being online. It’s very helpful to me to see t4t as including friendship and camaraderie as well.
As a non-trans (but kinda genderfuck-y and bisexual) person, i recognize a lot of me and my partners (heterosexual but neurodiverse and kinda genderqueer) relationship and what i value about it in what you said about t4t dynamics.
The willingness to see each other for who we are and appreciate each others idiosyncrasies. Being open and experimental with our roles and behavior both inside and outside the bedroom. Having this consciousness around being fluid, evolving people and trying to find and refine what works for us, individually and as a couple.
To not see each other as a role with expectations attached but as People.
As you said, t4t isn't a guarantee that a relationship is fulfilling and safe, and it is not a requirement for it either.
But there are so many people and finding a compatible partner is very hard, especially on online platforms and dating sites.
So it can be really helpful to at least have somewhere to start looking. And t4t can be just that.
Like when i moved to a new region, i had a really hard time finding friends here and people i got along with until i started going to a queer and kink munch (which happened to have a considerable proportion of neurodivere people as well). And in that space, i felt like the baseline of compatibility and mutual understanding was just higher by default than in the more general populace.
Is q4q or nd4nd a thing as well?
I appreciate that you touched on how t4t relationships aren't inherently good or better than other kinds of relationships.
I see this idea alot in (almost always online) trans spaces but, in my experience, t4t just makes it more likely that you won't be with someone transphobic ( but not impossible, sadly).
Currently I'm in a relationship with a cis women and it's by far the best I've ever had and where I feel more understood.
Sure, she isn't as fluent in some of the language but she's queer and nd and our connection isn't any less deep than if I were with another transwoman.
I skipped a bit in the middle, but I'm dissapointed there was no mention of transmisogyny specifically, as it's one of the major aspects of privilege/oppression that can be at play in bad t4t outside of racism.
And beyond that there's a general tendency among transmisogyny-exempt trans people to downplay the role of transmisogyny in intercommunity dynamics.
In my opinion when it comes to dating people of different backgrounds, preferences are fine, but when they turn into hard rules you start having to justify weird shit. I don't think T4T is fetishistic or anything, but I do suspect that some trans people who are T4T simply have deep, unresolved trauma around their gender expression that they should work out if for no other reason than to be more at peace with yourself and the world. To me T4T is less about liking or fetishizing trans people and a lot more about excluding cis people, typically on the grounds that a cis person could never understand you and love you in an intimate way like a trans person could. This is of course people projecting their own insecurity onto every single cis person, and retreating to the security of knowing that your partner is in the same sticky situation.
If you're really into trans people because you have a lot in common and can talk about gender with each other fluently then that's great, but excluding all cis people because of power dynamics and projection seems short-sighted to me. There are cis people who understand and love us just as deeply as any trans person could. Just date who you're attracted to.
It seems wild to me that anyone would jump to thinking t4t is a fetish even some of the time. I think we've been so oppressed that we internalize the transphobia and don't believe that someone can be attracted to trans bodies without denying our full personhood, and assume anyone that likes trans people specifically (cis or trans) is a chaser.
I don't necessarily want to be homogenized as "just another woman, no different than they'd view a cis woman" when dating. I don't want to be fetishized and dehumanized but I also love when people appreciate the trans body I have as a unique thing. I don't want someone to "not see transness" out of trying to avoid being a chaser.
I'm realizing that I accidentally almost have a trans and neurodivergent only friend group😭
Im not done with the video yet but I wanna say how accurate this is so far, I'm a trans man who lives with three other trans people and our lives are so incredibly t4t because we've had to weed out all the cis people in our lives for one reason or another. Its not just safe it's family, it's community deeper than I've ever felt because I know these people feel deeply about themselves as well
I still find it weird that people would choose one single aspect of their identify and then only date people who share that aspect.
Like I'm so many different things all at once. When looking to date someone I want that person to be relatedable to me on a bunch of different levels. And most of the time ends of meaning cis people
I’m not t4t, but I could not be with a cis person, who has never questioned their gender a bit 😉
T4T makes sense. I need more trans women in my personal life. It's lonely having only one transfem friend that lives across the state. All the men I grew up with support me but I don't feel like I can rely on them for some things.
That being said I Am with him because I Love HIM as a person, also we understand one another
As a trans girl quite early in her transition who is in a t4t relationship, i find the idea that anyone could call anything that happens between me and my partner fetishisation baffling.
My experience has been one of feeling safe from judgement, of being appreciated for who I am and not despite it, and of being incredibly affirmed by my partner. I can only hope I've been able to make them feel as appreciated. It's been beautiful and I'm grateful for the experience
I am a transwoman, I Haven't dated a cis-person in 5 years, and am in a polycule with 4 trans-mascs/ enbies. I genuinely don't think I could ever have a healthy relationship with a cis-person
As a trans high school student, I often feel fetishized/belittled by other kids, both trans and cis, but all claiming the ally label. Anytime I do anything they bring it back to me being trans or a “smol boi”, rather than being recognized for my other traits and skills. I’m incredibly good at math, but my talent which has been furthered by hard work doesn’t matter because “you’re such a smart trans”. I would love to date a trans person who sees me as a person, not a gender, but it’s not as important to me as personality of a person. That’s just my two cents.
I appreciate how nuanced this video was, especially when talking about how fetish isn't inherently bad
I've only accepted my own transness/ non-binaryness half a year ago and I'm still exploring and figuring out what this means for me exactly
One thing I've been struggling with a lot, especially when I was still questioning, is the appreciation, and yes even attraction, I feel towards aspects of transness and gender nonconformity
I've been feeling a lot of guilt and shame over it, because I didn't wanna fetishize other trans people
Personally I think it's important to have discussions like this to help people navigate these feelings
I know I would certainly like to have a supportive, non judgemental space where I don't have to be afraid to talk about stuff like this
Me personally I love being t4t because I agree with everything said this video. The understanding and love that comes from a trans person appreciating the body and the identity you're both a part of. Beautiful, almost spiritual for me. Not just romantically or sexually, platonically as well
I apologize if I ramble, but I have had soooo many thoughts and experiences related to this topic, so plz excuse me if i do.
SO on the issue of why some trans people are against t4t relationships, I definitely agree with the reasons you gave, especially for younger and pre-transition trans people. In my experience at least, those kinds of folks tend to have some anti-trans feelings they havent unlearned, and many times sexual trauma (experienced or via anti-sex upbringing) that they havent/couldnt unpack that they end up projecting onto other trans people. There's so much dysphoria people project sometimes, espwcially when they see the features they are dysphoric about being appreciated. It's a very....self-harming mindset in a lot of ways, and can be self-reinforcing (especially in transmed and truscum circles oh my god).
But another big group i see who are particularly vocal a out this are older, binary, assimilationist trans people. Not necessarily transmeds (tho theres a lot of overlap) but these are people who believe that the goal of transition should be to fit into cis society neatly, and dating other trans people by default makes that impossible. This is something I see with a lot of older, straight and binary folks in particular, and it just..makes me sad I guess? For a similar reason transmeds and truscum make me sad. It seems so miserable defining yourself by what your oppressors think, and they ACT miserable. I absolutrly get how someone can come to that, but it just feels deeply tragic to me.
There are absolutely parallels in the black community ive seen and experience too, and it makes me feel the same way. Tho, like with t4t, people who get very isolationaist (while be very understandable) can get real toxic, real fast.
Anyway, becoming this idealized version of what you think our oppressors will find acceptable is a losing game. You will always be too trans, too black, too disabled, etc. You're marked, and no manner of shuckin and jivin will do anything but make it easier to manipulate and hurt you.
As a side note, when i see the whole amab4amab and afab4afab thing (which is very rare at least in the spaces ive been, thank god) reminds me a lot of cis gay men who are like "masc4masc no fems" or whatever, tho in a different way. It just makes me think of that lmao. Like my buddy what are you doin, knock it off.
never apologize for rambles i appreciate these thoughts so much !! thank you for sharing all this :)) the note on older binary assimilationists is so interesting bc i've gotten a couple comments on this video (and a couple DMs weirdly enough) from that exact category that are really vehemently anti-t4t and yeah, it does just feel tragic. also, ur SO correct about always being "too" (insert marginalised identity) for the ppl that oppress you. assimilation will never provide liberation !!
i couldnt imagine myself with a cis girl…. ever
Why hello there fellow queers
Hello!
Hiii
Oh good I can watch this while putting my weighted blanket cover back on
i know this is irrelevant but i love your look, it is the softer version of "goth-punk" i grew up with and it is so cool to see young people still finding value in dressing that way
I Am a Transgirl and my partner is a Transman
Loved hearing this deep dive! Lots of thoughts incoming, apologies for how long this comment is lol
I honestly consider t4t to be my orientation. I can label my sexuality in a few other ways (leather, bi, queer, etc), but ultimately I find t4t to be a more useful and meaningful label than any other.
RE: Chasers, I think something to consider is the fact that chasers’ attraction to trans people is often based around assumptions about how trans people have sex specifically because we are trans. As a trans man who is a stone top, I have never had a cis partner be able to respect my ‘do not touch my genitals’ boundary, especially if they’ve made a habit of sleeping with trans guys.
At this point, while I am attracted to individual cis people, I do not think I’ll ever be comfortable actually engaging in sexual relationships with them ever again. My type in people goes beyond ‘trans’, obviously, but because that’s now a fundamental necessity for me to be able to have a sexual relationship with somebody, it makes sense to me for me to classify that as my orientation.
I also - as somebody who’s a trans guy/transmasc with a wobbly gender, and/but is mostly attracted to women - I feel really seen by trans women/transfems with wobbly genders who are mostly attracted to men, even more than other kinds of trans people. It’s a particular kind of straight queer butch/femme that I don’t get to experience in any other kind of dynamic.
That said, I don’t think t4t is a panacea! I definitely feel somewhat alienated by some t4t communities and spaces (and trans spaces in general) as somebody who isn’t gay and is straight-leaning (as much as I can be with a funky gender) in orientation and prefers presenting very hard masc (I personally consider transmasculine masculinity gender non-conforming, but I’m aware this isn’t universal), but also has no interest in being acceptable to cis people, dating cis people, or being stealth. Also regarding your last section, I also can feel a particular kind of way as a fat trans man in t4t spaces.
I didn't realize T4T could be used as an ethos in addition to a relationship search term. I read so many T4straight books as a teenager trying to squeeze out a drop of feeling seen and understood 😂 (some that would more likely be classified as straight4straight ABOUT trans people lol). There's something so cathartic about talking to other trans people about similar experiences/feelings we've had. I love my cis friends but let's be real... they typically end up trans in the end anyway 😂😂 we're drawn to each other!
I feel like even outside of the specific T4T context, much of this rests on the idea of fetishism as necessarily objectification (in the sense of dehumanization). Fetishism as such is value neutral when objects or actions are involved (i.e. not humans, like a fetish for shoes). It gets murky when humans themselves become part of the fetish, because to what degree are we, in the fetishization, dehumanizing a person? Is there a difference when the fetish is part of a person's body (like a fetish for red hair), or of their identity (like a race fetish), or something that intertwines both? I'd argue it's possible to both fetishize an aspect of a person without dehumanizing the entire person, but are most of us capable of that? Especially when the person being fetishized is already commonly dehumanized in the broader culture we exist in? How much does it matter? This is such an interesting discussion on its own, could go on forever.
i completely agree!!
last time i watched you had a cis boyfriend, not anymore?
nope, you can watch my recent update video if you’re super curious lol
Alphabet soup : WAAAAHHHHH NOBODY WANTS ME NOBODY PAYS ATTENTION TO ME IM UNDATABLE
Also Alphabet soup : WAAAAAHHHH SOMEONE LIKES MY FEATURES AND WANTS TO DATE ME ICK NASTY YUCK
Mental disorder.
I just have more fun and feel more kinship with people who have a bit more "gender experience". For me, other nonbinary people understand some things more fully, like gendered restrooms and doing the math of your gender presentation that day + where it is (work, public, etc) + who else is there + dysphoria and confidence levels to pick which bathroom to use. It's freeing when I don't have to explain my feelings and thought processes so explicitly and translate them for a cis worldview, and there's a level of comfort and safety that comes with being with another trans person that makes it so much easier to be vunerable and intimate. I have less fear of judgement, i can have deeper conversations, i can say "I'm not that kind of girl" and rest assured knowing we both understand I'm using the word girl for fun, even though I'm not one!
Edit: just saw a comment about beauty standards and t4t, and that is huge to me. Bodies have such different standards (both in beauty and just what is considered 'normal') in trans and cis spaces. Trans beauty is so different and expansive and creative and rooted in choices and growth, and trying to fit that into cis beauty standards is difficult without losing some of the depth. Similarly, trying to regulate how trans people love each other to one "right" way seems like it could cut out a lot of the beautiful ways that we care for & support each other.