Pre-vet student here, it can be extremely daunting to just get through the school aspect of this journey but the added worry of “Can I ACTUALLY earn a sustainable living?” only adds to the anxiety of things, your video helped so much in seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, seriously thank you!
Germany: as employed vet about 36k/year starting salary - 96k/year for specialized vets. Keep in mind: vet school is paid for by the government, so no student loans for most of us.
Nice informative video and great explanation of the ProSal model. I took a base salary only job out of school as a GP vet, and while I loved the clinic I was at, it got pretty frustrating knowing I was seeing about double the cases of my co-workers but making less money. Eventually took the leap to single doctor practice ownership (gotta learn to love that cortisol 24/7) and have quadrupled my previous salary within 4 years and feel so much more fulfilled as a doctor.
I got told by my professor that we will earn 57.000 euros before taxes (38.000 euros afterwards) as a starting veterinarian, but that an experienced specialist can earn up to 75.000 euros after taxes. Vets who own their own clinic normally make the most if their clinic does well (over 100.000), but it does come with risks obviously. For context, the average salary here is 60.000 before taxes. From a vet student in the Netherlands😊🇳🇱
I think vets should be paid through an insurance pool like canada, pet food and stuff gets taxed a bit more than before and it gets put into insurance for all vet offices
Wow US pays are so much higher. In Australia most experienced vets cap out at about 100-120k aud (70-80k USD). My new grad wage was 40k usd and that was considered high at the time. I know specialist surgeons only on 200-250k AUD. The fact that it’s not uncommon for vets to earn 200k USD without even being a specialist is kinda insane, let alone 300+, I didn’t know that was possible in the industry except major outliers. I also don’t think Prosal is common here, would be very clinic dependent. Everyone I know is just on a base salary. Some clinics will have you on a salary roughly 5% of your makings.
2021 grad in the UK. I make £40k salary. Would consider myself pretty broke 😅 I think majority if not all of us are paid salary. Minimum wage is around £20k a year here but I also don’t believe that to be a remotely livable wage.
Wow. Thank you for sharing! If I may add, some veterinarians also enjoy additional remuneration from external (sometimes undeclared) conflicts of interest. For example, in addition to other external conflicts of interest, one well-known DACVS "opinion leader" in Texas made millions after entering into silent ownership of a veterinary orthopedic implant company and selling its implants for years (by putting them into his patients, seeding them via continuing education "training" courses, presenting/publishing on them in veterinary congresses/journals, and eventually selling the company).
@@brendakauffman1647I don't think it's rare, except it may be declared on tax forms, just not to the clients. Flea and tick concoctions, heartworm prevention, foods and supplements, etc. , heavily discounted or free by the boxload. Then, wonder of wonders " recommended by Veterinarians" . Not to mention free sample and off label human psychiatric medications for "behavior issues".
That’s what vet med used to be about fifty years ago. I was one of them in Galveston, TX in the early ‘80’s. They still exist in some rural areas and poorer parts of cities. The problem is those one-vet practices require a 60-hour work week because it’s only them all day, all week, and taking emergency call. I wouldn’t do it again and I doubt most vets would. I could work a ten-hour day, get home in time to eat dinner, then have to go on a farm call for a horse with colic or a down cow, get home at midnight and start all over the next morning. It’s brutal. No vets are missing it.
Australian vet student here, I think our salaries are a lot lower than in America (I think a small animal GP makes between $60,000-$80,000 AUD, maybe $100,000 if they're a senior vet). As far as I know flat salary is the most common pay structure, but emergency/after hours work might have a production percentage component.
This is a great video and I appreciate the explanation of how most practices work! Can I have the link to the spreadsheet ? I’m really interested in zoo/exotic/lab animal (exploring different interests though) and have struggled on finding information on different specialties. That was helpful
Great video, I’m currently thinking of becoming a perfusionist and I was wondering if this also exists in veterinary medicine and if so how does one pursue it.
Glad to hear that incomes seem higher back in the early 90s when I was a vet tech, we had 5 vets working for a vet owned small animal clinic and the newest grad was barely surviving while trying to repay student loans
You should do a video on your thoughts about laser therapy. I know a lot of people I know, including myself have mixed feelings. But at the clinic I work at I’ve seen dogs do well on it, but I’m never sure if it’s the meds we give or the laser therapy, or both! Would love to hear your thoughts!
This was absolutely fascinating to watch!!! Thank you so much - I hope other vets around the world will follow up with surveys and videos like this so we get an absurd amount of data, which is always useful! Answering in the middle of the video, so idk if your survey is still open, but I'll check. If it is, I'll send the link to my vet.
This is a great resource. When i graduated in 2018 we were told in our business course that average in MI for new grad small animal was 85k. Amazing how quickly those numbers came up in the last 5 years.
This helps ease my worries about the amount of loans I’m going to have to take out for vet school. and the beginning about pay structure was So Helpful! I wouldn’t have expected it to work like that so thank you for explaining!! I feel way more knowledgeable.
Re the question of "padding" the bill with unnecessary things: I'm sorry but I still think this is a bad model in that regard. Entities policing themselves almost never works. Management isn't going to stop that sort of behavior if it's profitable, pure and simple. And your colleagues aren't going to call you out on it if they're doing the same 🙄. As for the potential "drawbacks" of a straight salary model that you mention, most sound like issues arising from poor management, not the compensation model. After all, the vast majority of people work for a straight salary or hourly rate and other industries seem to find ways to reward productivity and weed out deadbeats. And they do it without passing the burden along to their customers by having them effectively pay incentives to the practice's employees for doing their job. It would be interesting if there were some sort of incentive for doing more with less--what's known in other businesses as "efficiency"--without sacrifing patient care. But somehow no one's interested in that...
Respectfully, I think you are underestimating the ethical character of veterinarians. Veterinarians do not get into the profession to make money. If we wanted to make money, we would choose a more lucrative field and skip the 8-12 years of school, hard work and training that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have worked for 30 years in emergency/critical care/specialty and GP. I have seen mostly prosal compensation arrangements and it works fairly well. I have worked with a very few vets who it appears that they are padding the bill. In those circumstances you bet your as that we, the colleagues, called them out. Now, I am a practice owner and use the prosal model. But my veterinarians know that they have to have a good logical reason for running a test or performing a procedure. On the other hand, I have seen vets paid strictly salary and they will do the least possible to address a problem to the detriment of the patient. So, just as in all other professions, there a few lazy vets and a few unethical greedy ones. But by far, the majority of vets are hard working, compassionate and ethical.
It’s definitely variable and is less than in the states for sure! My first year out of practise I got 90000 with no production working at a hybrid er/gp. Definitely learned afterwards that they 100% low balled me and my colleagues all made more than me 😢 I then did an internship and when I came back to ER being 2 years out and internship trained I got $120000 plus production (22%) so I was clearing over $150000. And then I could pick up extra shifts for $100/hr. That’s working in Ontario. I did my internship in Alberta and I think they made a bit more and hourly was $150/hr during the summer months. I’m now in the states (Connecticut) specializing and the hospital where I am at the starting ER salary is $175000 USD plus production (22%). And extra pick up shifts here start at $250/hr and can be up to $500/hr. A lot of people just do relief work here because of it. So it is a noticeable difference between Canada and the US. And the exact location as well. I’ll be moving to NJ for residency next year and was told the relief pay is $80-100/hr USD
Im not a vet but ive heard that vets who work on livestock make the most and are also the most in demand because it usually requires you to live in the middle of nowhere. For awhile they were even offering to pay off a portion of student loans of vets that went into that specialty (atleast in rural BC they were).
I’m going to put this in non-vet language to make it super simple. • My former long time vet (corporate is what it is now) •Quoted: $2500+ for bladder stone removal New vet (non corporate) •Quoted: $800 for bladder stone removal, meds, X-rays, exam, bloodwork **Note**Both have been in the same line of work for about the same length of time. • One pushes clients to feel uncomfortable. The other is all about helping pet parents to stay calm, and keep them from having to give up their pets. You decide which one is better 😬
@@DVMCelliniYes, exactly. There's an expert snake specialist back East, but he's not a licensed Veterinarian. They tried to go after him for practicing medicine without a license, but there are literally no snake veterinary specialists within something like 1500 miles (not a good trip for a critically ill animal), so a local small animal practitioner volunteered to "supervise" his surgeries and treatments.
Whatever happened to veterinarians owning their own practice? Cast big business came in and show them what they could be making big money a lot of people cannot afford to take their pets to the vet any longer. 14:17
the baby boomers sold out. they took the high cash offers from the corporations. they got their bag and rode off into the sunset. As a result, the 10-20% that normally goes to the owner as profit now goes to corporations.
Thank you for raising such a valuable discussion..as vets we are always under the impression that we make a very high income ..in reality we make good not very good or excellent income compared to other professions ..thanks again
I understand that it's a medical procedure but what I don't understand is if a dog ate clothing and is getting it surgically removed, why is 2k more to take out the dead tissue? Legitimately I wanted an explanation but the vet ran away 😂
Vet tech here, short version is that GI surgery is extremely intensive. while any surgery is a to an extent there’s a lot of stuff that factors into anything GI related that make it way more complicated. for one, the success of a surgery depends heavily on how clean and sterile you keep things, and the inside of any part of the GI tract is absolutely filthy so the procedure requires more steps to make sure the pet doesn’t end up with raging peritonitis. there are also a lot of very important and very fragile blood vessels around the GI tract that make things tough. if you have to resect dead bowel tissue, it complicates things because the vet has to decide exactly what to take out and what to leave and then make a new junction from scratch. if you leave any necrotic tissue then you haven’t solved the problem, but removing too much will affect how the pet absorbs nutrients. i’m sorry the vet ran away though, i don’t have an explanation for that 😅
DVM here who has done a lot of these foreign body surgeries. Say you have a pair of panty hose (very common) stuck in the small intestine for several days. The pressure against the walls of the intestine cause a large portion of the intestine to die. When that happens, you have an abdomen full of rotting tissue that is well on its way to causing a septic abdomen, which is fatal pretty quickly. You have to remove the dead intestine, sew the healthy ends together, and clean out the abdomen. Then, you have to hope that the ends of intestine you sewed together don’t start to die, because then the animal is septic. It’s actually one of the more difficult soft tissue surgeries vets do.
Because that is a second procedure that also involves reattaching the viable parts of the intestine. Out of curiosity, how much do you think major abdominal surgery should cost?
Because it takes me 1.5x as long surgery and anesthesia. Along with a longer hospitalization/recovery. No good doctor will release the patient unless is eating, not regurgitation, vomiting and good pain control with oral pain meds.
As I look through your very few videos and very many shorts, you do a lot of complaining about other people other professions why don’t you just stick to being positive about what you do rather than tearing other people down
When I see animals get mistreated or charlatans selling their brands of quackery to an audience of millions, I will speak out against it through this and other mediums.
@@DVMCellini it seems like you’re upset because he didn’t go through a traditional school you make mention of him not having specific credentials, but based on a knowledge of canines and how effective he is without without abusing or harassing them, simply by guiding them and building confidence in him has nothing to do with credentials. Certainly, we all understand, many people with credentials have very poor delivery skills that would be affective in reform or transforming in this case the animals that they are working with It seems as though you need to post your techniques, and if they prove to be above and beyond what others are doing, you would gain the following as well Criticizing does not help show what you can do or what you do or what you do is more effective than some other person
I agree with the comment that this is a fair way for vets to be paid. The Munger comment of "show me the incentives and I'll tell you the outcome" is valid, but there isn't a more fair way to pay in any profession, IMO, than a percentage of value the employee brings. This is the standard salesperson pay model as well, with target earnings, kickers, and the commonly misunderstood "quota" system as knobs to dial things in.
Thank you so much for discussing such a difficult subject! First, I want to highlight that I absolutely love my vets and that I think that they should be paid fairly. However, I can’t help it being shocked by the high salaries these vets reported. It feels like I went into the wrong field. 😮 I agree with another viewer that this pay-per-service was the model that human physicians used to practice to bring home huge salaries. A lot of evidence shows that this model encouraged excessive testing and procedures. Human physicians reported the main need for such inflated salaries were to pay their student loans, lawsuits, and liability insurance. Do vets have similar expenses? Also, I would imagine that there are struggling veterinarians. Are there? Thanks again
A lot of veterinarians graduating in recent years have huge loan burden. You have to also consider that during the time we are in internship and residency, salaries are so low that you cannot contribute to retirement. I can give my numbers as an example. I graduated vet school in 2011 and maxed out my federal loan borrowing at $162k. While this is high, this is isn’t shockingly high for the field. Following graduation I did an equine internship living in one of the most expensive counties in the state making $24k a year. From there I went into equine private practice in a Chicago suburb for three years where I made a base salary of 60k and could never make more than 70k a year even with production and busting my ass because the winters were slower and production was annual - not quarterly or monthly. Also, in equine it not uncommon for your production to be based on the accounts receivable, not billable. This means if a client didn’t pay their bill by the time production was calculated, it’s like I never did the work. I was on call 50% of the time and also had to do a bit of small animal as part of my contract (for which my boss got paid), some months leaving me with one day off. No retirement benefits and only two weeks vacation. Thanks to the economic collapse in 2008 student loan interest rates were at 6.8%, meaning I accumulated more than 1k of interest a month. Income based repayment doesn’t allow you to put a dent in the principle. Finances aside, I didn’t enjoy a lot of equine general practice and decided to pursue imaging. I took a one year role at an equine and small imaging clinic to see if I was genuinely interested in this specialty for 35k a year. This role and my following two roles as a small imaging intern (44k in San Diego) and diagnostic imaging resident (30k annually) in Texas also had associated moving costs. As a radiologist I will be able to pay back my loans and can save for retirement. I would otherwise be relying on student loan forgiveness and investing money along the way to pay the taxes on the forgiveness amount. It’s easy to look at these salaries and think they’re inflated based solely on their dollar value. But you have to look at the whole picture - adequate compensation for education and skill level in addition to loan amount, accumulated interest, delayed retirement contribution, and missed income for years of post graduate training. And that’s just the financial side of things. The fact is this training requires an abundance of time and huge personal sacrifice that quite frankly, a lot of people aren’t willing to make or can’t hack. That might be more info than you wanted but I hope it exemplifies how nuanced our situation can be as I am not an outlier. Thanks for reading if you made it this far 😊
Not a vet, but close to my vets and techs across several companies, things in the Twin Cities have been really bad since the pandemic (exasperated by). I live in south of the TC rural MN and several clinics have shut down and everybody else lost vets and techs who have left the industry due to burn out.
Hi Dr Cellini thank you for your videos! My question is how an internal medicine specialist has the same base salary with a GP (130k) and in some occasions less ? I know that we have only one example of an IM specialist but from your experience is this true? Is the base salary of an IM specialist around 130k ?
I have applied to become a student this year and am awaiting confirmation (if in the unlikely situation it doesn't happen this year I'll retake some things and make it happen next year 99.9%) and honestly made a deliberate choice NOT to Google anything to do with money in advance and choose between humans and animals based on feelings alone and not let money sway my decision but I'm honestly surprised positively that I will probably not be worried about putting food on my plate and glad I chose animals over humans not being swayed by perceived notions and sticking to my feelings. In Europe by the way but may be tempted to move to the US after graduating I must admit, not that European vets seemed to be starving themselves to keep the lights on and a roof over their heads either, maybe not quite as good but still pretty decent. Edit: also for the record this is my second start at an entirely new career after already climbing up the ladder to the top of my current one and getting bored of it (hence why I may have to retake some courses since I never aimed for this and math/physics/engineering from 18 years ago struggles to compete with chem and bio from this or last year, I'm nearly 40 and did math/physics and am competing with 18/19 year olds that just did chem and bio) but even after more than 15 years to become an expert in a speciality the vet from the UK was not far off earning roughly the same ball-park despite not spending between 15 and 20 years climbing the ladder and specialising. To be clear it will be a step down, but not as much as I feared., unless I move to the US, then it will be a significant step up.
Thanks for the informative video. Now I know why veterinary care costs have skyrocketed over the last 15 to 20 years- corporations now own the practices. For most of my life, vets owned their own practices. So they might make a good living, but there was no one adding massive profits to the bill. There was also no incentive to order endless tests. So veterinary care has gone the way of the human US healthcare system.
Being a vet student in Brazil, this video has made the biggest goal of my life at the moment to validat my diploma in the us. Veterinarians here with 5 years or more of experience are making roughly 66K Reais per year in GP, which would be around 12k dollars a year. Honestly, I study too hard to graduate only to afford food afterward. Sadly, that's the reality here.
Hey Dr. Cellini! I’m American studying in Ireland. The salaries here in Europe and in the UK are lower. Typically I see around 35-50k starting salary, but keep in mind Irish vet students pay much less in tuition than the North American students do. My tuition is about 35k per year whereas the Irish students only pay a couple thousand euro per year and come out with no student loans.
Hi Dr. Cellini, love the videos! Keep it up! I had one detail about ProSal that I thought would be valuable for our fellow vets to consider as well. I am a vet in Canada but worked in the US for a few years around the pandemic for a corporate clinic paying prosal. Even though the best raise would be an increase in percent earned for sure, an increase in your base salary makes you more money still as well. My sign on bonus and any production bonuses were taxed as a bonus, which was about 40%, whereas my salary was probably closer to 30%. By increasing your base salary you are saving that 10% in taxes and giving it to the doctor instead. Really high tax brackets may affect this some, but I think it's overall true for the majority of salaries. Just worth noting that if your boss gives you a base raise it can still be worth celebrating!:)
Thanks for the insightful video Dr. Jim and explaining the ProSal model more clearly. Speaking as an Emergency vet from Ontario Canada, the US numbers are definitely higher but in the ER realm it’s pretty comparable to achieve those numbers. I would say that the hourly model seems more common on our side of the fence though. As I am sure you know ER can be somewhat seasonal and especially on the ER side people get more anxious about the idea of incentivizing pay - because our field already gets a lot of flack for high prices. Just being paid hourly takes that out of the equation and I actually tell clients on the regular that “I don’t get paid anything for recommending test XYZ, I’m just paid by the hour” and people appreciate that. Now on the flip side if you’re smart, and work for corporate, you’ll be able to negotiate solid bonuses, CE, time off etc as ER vets are in such high demand.
hey doc! 2022 grad here. How do you ask for a RAISE then?If you can’t just ask for an increase base. Is the only option to ask for more production percent? I’m currently 160k 22% prod. On average bring in 110k/month for the hospital (SA ER/Gp)
I've only ever experienced one time in my life where I felt like I was being coerced to do testing that was unnecessary. I had just moved states and had a cat with FIV who would occasionally get sick (of course), so I made an appointment with some random clinic across the street from my apartment. Without my consent, someone did a blood draw on him while we were literally just chatting in the exam room. They then charged me like $200 for a blood work I didn't ask for and didn't even know what it was for. A couple days later, they call me and say his blood work indicates he may have FIP, but it's hard to diagnose and an ultrasound will give them a better idea. They also told me FIP has no solid treatment and most cats pass within a few months of diagnosis. I loved this cat, but he was just some nasty little dude I literally took out of my mom's yard one day to get euthanized because I thought he was dying (he just had a bad URI he couldn't fight off himself). I had no interest in paying a few hundred for a meaningless test to confirm a diagnosis. They got really hostile with me and said they'd refuse to provide further service if I didn't consent to the ultrasound. Okay lol 🤷♀️
A diagnostic to rule something out is not useless. It served its purpose by ruling something in or out. That is how diagnostic testing works. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?
@@worrell3831 Because I was charged for a diagnostic I did not consent to and then was told I will be refused service if I don't agree to a second one for an incurable illness??? Did you not read my post? Edit: Like this was for some nasty street cat of unknown age that I really was not financially invested in. All I wanted was some meds for his URI he got every seasonal change due to his FIV lmao.
It sounds very much like corporate care - just like in human medicine. Not so many years ago, almost all vet and doctor offices were independent. Now you can't find an independent anything. Every doctor and vet could make lots more money on their own and one of the reasons either choses to work for a corporation is protection from lawsuits, another is it is easier to let a big corporation handle everything. Rural vets do not work for corporations either. That might be the reason for his income.
It is coroate, the billing is insane, one night of care for my dog, just fluids and anti- biotics was $2000 Canadian. The one positive is the availability of high tech if you want to pursue those options.
Vote for loan forgiveness so new grads can afford to own a practice. You can't expect someone with 200k+ in student loans to buy a practice when a corporate consolidator can come offer 3x market value for the same practice.
Ah, this is why the vet wants me to give my cat an ECG every year. $545. 😨 She does have a bit of a heart murmur that hasn't gotten worse in five years.
Additionally, it can be a CYA since NOT suggesting it, and then later finding your cat’s heart condition has suddenly become way worse. If for some reason this went to the state board, they would mention that it was a “gold standard” at least recommend the ECG. They may not knock the vet for that, but it may be mentioned. It’s really a double edged sword.
Plus if I’d would be a human or a pet with health insurance there would be no discussion so it’s obviously not excessive from a medical point of view, just financially and the financial decision are the owners responsibility not the vets. Since cats only get +/- 15yrs old it’s as if a human with a heart condition would get an ECG every 5 yrs, who calls that excessive?
It's not the vets. It's their corporate bosses. Big corporation invests in the facility, the machines, does the billing, hires the help, etc., and must increase their profits year after year to make more off of their investment. That's how capitalism works, if it's not growing, it's dying. Vets like it better because they don't have to work as many hours (witness thinking that 20 shifts a month is a lot of work, when most of us work at least that much at our first job, not counting our second jobs). We have sacrificed human health to our corporate overlords, and now they have come for our pets. Only rich people will be able to keep pets from now on. But hey, Americans LOVE capitalism and are terrified of any other economic alternative, so we get what we ask for.
@@DVMCellini nope, seems like if you are putting commentary about dogs, you should at least know how to make a dog heel while walking with a dog next to you. But doctors suck at life
Pre-vet student here, it can be extremely daunting to just get through the school aspect of this journey but the added worry of “Can I ACTUALLY earn a sustainable living?” only adds to the anxiety of things, your video helped so much in seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, seriously thank you!
As a current vet student, this video was super helpful. Thank you!
It was made with ya’ll in mind!
OK. Now, let's talk about work/life balance! That's a big issue with the company that I work for.
Germany: as employed vet about 36k/year starting salary - 96k/year for specialized vets. Keep in mind: vet school is paid for by the government, so no student loans for most of us.
decent trade off
Iam veterinarian from egypt, can you please find me ajob
I did study in Germany, but practice in US. No loans.
Nice informative video and great explanation of the ProSal model. I took a base salary only job out of school as a GP vet, and while I loved the clinic I was at, it got pretty frustrating knowing I was seeing about double the cases of my co-workers but making less money. Eventually took the leap to single doctor practice ownership (gotta learn to love that cortisol 24/7) and have quadrupled my previous salary within 4 years and feel so much more fulfilled as a doctor.
Good for you! Love that
I got told by my professor that we will earn 57.000 euros before taxes (38.000 euros afterwards) as a starting veterinarian, but that an experienced specialist can earn up to 75.000 euros after taxes. Vets who own their own clinic normally make the most if their clinic does well (over 100.000), but it does come with risks obviously. For context, the average salary here is 60.000 before taxes. From a vet student in the Netherlands😊🇳🇱
I think vets should be paid through an insurance pool like canada, pet food and stuff gets taxed a bit more than before and it gets put into insurance for all vet offices
Wow US pays are so much higher. In Australia most experienced vets cap out at about 100-120k aud (70-80k USD). My new grad wage was 40k usd and that was considered high at the time. I know specialist surgeons only on 200-250k AUD. The fact that it’s not uncommon for vets to earn 200k USD without even being a specialist is kinda insane, let alone 300+, I didn’t know that was possible in the industry except major outliers. I also don’t think Prosal is common here, would be very clinic dependent. Everyone I know is just on a base salary. Some clinics will have you on a salary roughly 5% of your makings.
Us vets are also drowning in debt from school.
2021 grad in the UK. I make £40k salary. Would consider myself pretty broke 😅 I think majority if not all of us are paid salary. Minimum wage is around £20k a year here but I also don’t believe that to be a remotely livable wage.
Wow. Thank you for sharing! If I may add, some veterinarians also enjoy additional remuneration from external (sometimes undeclared) conflicts of interest. For example, in addition to other external conflicts of interest, one well-known DACVS "opinion leader" in Texas made millions after entering into silent ownership of a veterinary orthopedic implant company and selling its implants for years (by putting them into his patients, seeding them via continuing education "training" courses, presenting/publishing on them in veterinary congresses/journals, and eventually selling the company).
This is rare
@@brendakauffman1647I don't think it's rare, except it may be declared on tax forms, just not to the clients. Flea and tick concoctions, heartworm prevention, foods and supplements, etc. , heavily discounted or free by the boxload. Then, wonder of wonders " recommended by Veterinarians" . Not to mention free sample and off label human psychiatric medications for "behavior issues".
What's missing is small private practice, one doctor with a staff of 2 or 3.
That’s what vet med used to be about fifty years ago. I was one of them in Galveston, TX in the early ‘80’s. They still exist in some rural areas and poorer parts of cities. The problem is those one-vet practices require a 60-hour work week because it’s only them all day, all week, and taking emergency call. I wouldn’t do it again and I doubt most vets would. I could work a ten-hour day, get home in time to eat dinner, then have to go on a farm call for a horse with colic or a down cow, get home at midnight and start all over the next morning. It’s brutal. No vets are missing it.
Thank you for making this video. So well done and helpful for graduating students!❤
You are so welcome!
Australian vet student here, I think our salaries are a lot lower than in America (I think a small animal GP makes between $60,000-$80,000 AUD, maybe $100,000 if they're a senior vet). As far as I know flat salary is the most common pay structure, but emergency/after hours work might have a production percentage component.
Thank you! Pay transparency is so important! Student loans are crushing us so we need a light at the end of the tunnel.
I wish I was Dr. Jim. 2007 grad, GP, I do not make that much money.
I wish I was Dr. Purina 😂
would love to have you do the same thing for Europe. The average wage in Norway is at $66k with the current exchange rate
This is a great video and I appreciate the explanation of how most practices work! Can I have the link to the spreadsheet ? I’m really interested in zoo/exotic/lab animal (exploring different interests though) and have struggled on finding information on different specialties. That was helpful
Great video, I’m currently thinking of becoming a perfusionist and I was wondering if this also exists in veterinary medicine and if so how does one pursue it.
Thank you for this video! On your next one can you add a section in your survey for their current student loan values/debt?
Glad to hear that incomes seem higher back in the early 90s when I was a vet tech, we had 5 vets working for a vet owned small animal clinic and the newest grad was barely surviving while trying to repay student loans
Hey im a vet from India but need some help from a vet from usa or Canada. So please reply if u can, it will be so kind of u
I'd love to know the range oncologists make
As a vet student in slovakia, thank you very much for the information
Glad it was helpful!
You should do a video on your thoughts about laser therapy. I know a lot of people I know, including myself have mixed feelings. But at the clinic I work at I’ve seen dogs do well on it, but I’m never sure if it’s the meds we give or the laser therapy, or both! Would love to hear your thoughts!
UK grad 2009 - no production
First year £25k
2-3yrs £26k
8 years £42k
12yrs £65k as clinic lead
This was absolutely fascinating to watch!!! Thank you so much - I hope other vets around the world will follow up with surveys and videos like this so we get an absurd amount of data, which is always useful!
Answering in the middle of the video, so idk if your survey is still open, but I'll check. If it is, I'll send the link to my vet.
This is a great resource. When i graduated in 2018 we were told in our business course that average in MI for new grad small animal was 85k. Amazing how quickly those numbers came up in the last 5 years.
We were told like 50k in 2009 and it was the most inaccurate advice ever 😂
Wonderful video. Chuckled at the “this video is for you” part
This helps ease my worries about the amount of loans I’m going to have to take out for vet school. and the beginning about pay structure was So Helpful! I wouldn’t have expected it to work like that so thank you for explaining!! I feel way more knowledgeable.
Glad it was helpful!
Re the question of "padding" the bill with unnecessary things: I'm sorry but I still think this is a bad model in that regard. Entities policing themselves almost never works. Management isn't going to stop that sort of behavior if it's profitable, pure and simple. And your colleagues aren't going to call you out on it if they're doing the same 🙄. As for the potential "drawbacks" of a straight salary model that you mention, most sound like issues arising from poor management, not the compensation model. After all, the vast majority of people work for a straight salary or hourly rate and other industries seem to find ways to reward productivity and weed out deadbeats. And they do it without passing the burden along to their customers by having them effectively pay incentives to the practice's employees for doing their job.
It would be interesting if there were some sort of incentive for doing more with less--what's known in other businesses as "efficiency"--without sacrifing patient care. But somehow no one's interested in that...
Respectfully, I think you are underestimating the ethical character of veterinarians. Veterinarians do not get into the profession to make money. If we wanted to make money, we would choose a more lucrative field and skip the 8-12 years of school, hard work and training that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have worked for 30 years in emergency/critical care/specialty and GP. I have seen mostly prosal compensation arrangements and it works fairly well. I have worked with a very few vets who it appears that they are padding the bill. In those circumstances you bet your as that we, the colleagues, called them out. Now, I am a practice owner and use the prosal model. But my veterinarians know that they have to have a good logical reason for running a test or performing a procedure. On the other hand, I have seen vets paid strictly salary and they will do the least possible to address a problem to the detriment of the patient. So, just as in all other professions, there a few lazy vets and a few unethical greedy ones. But by far, the majority of vets are hard working, compassionate and ethical.
And that is the problem.
vets in Czechia - around 1300$ per month
I’m curious if you know how these numbers differ for Canadian vets? I know it’s typically lower. - Canadian vet student interested in ER
Didn’t get any Canadian answers really so can’t say. Maybe next year!
It’s definitely variable and is less than in the states for sure!
My first year out of practise I got 90000 with no production working at a hybrid er/gp. Definitely learned afterwards that they 100% low balled me and my colleagues all made more than me 😢
I then did an internship and when I came back to ER being 2 years out and internship trained I got $120000 plus production (22%) so I was clearing over $150000. And then I could pick up extra shifts for $100/hr. That’s working in Ontario.
I did my internship in Alberta and I think they made a bit more and hourly was $150/hr during the summer months.
I’m now in the states (Connecticut) specializing and the hospital where I am at the starting ER salary is $175000 USD plus production (22%). And extra pick up shifts here start at $250/hr and can be up to $500/hr. A lot of people just do relief work here because of it.
So it is a noticeable difference between Canada and the US. And the exact location as well. I’ll be moving to NJ for residency next year and was told the relief pay is $80-100/hr USD
Im not a vet but ive heard that vets who work on livestock make the most and are also the most in demand because it usually requires you to live in the middle of nowhere. For awhile they were even offering to pay off a portion of student loans of vets that went into that specialty (atleast in rural BC they were).
Yep, that's how I get paid.
Yup..Well, I’m depressed now about my life choices
No wonder so many of our vets are going to America.
I’m going to put this in non-vet language to make it super simple.
•
My former long time vet (corporate is what it is now) •Quoted: $2500+ for bladder stone removal
New vet (non corporate)
•Quoted: $800 for bladder stone removal, meds, X-rays, exam, bloodwork
**Note**Both have been in the same line of work for about the same length of time.
•
One pushes clients to feel uncomfortable. The other is all about helping pet parents to stay calm, and keep them from having to give up their pets. You decide which one is better 😬
Where did you find a non-corporate vet? I think private equity has bought out every practice in my area.
interesting that some unique roles like exotics are on the lower end. maybe just lower volume of production?
Less high cost procedures. The animals you’re working with are just so hard to work on.
Volumes the same because while there are less exotic animals, there are basically 0 exotic vets out there I.e practically 0 supply
@@DVMCelliniYes, exactly. There's an expert snake specialist back East, but he's not a licensed Veterinarian. They tried to go after him for practicing medicine without a license, but there are literally no snake veterinary specialists within something like 1500 miles (not a good trip for a critically ill animal), so a local small animal practitioner volunteered to "supervise" his surgeries and treatments.
Whatever happened to veterinarians owning their own practice? Cast big business came in and show them what they could be making big money a lot of people cannot afford to take their pets to the vet any longer. 14:17
the baby boomers sold out. they took the high cash offers from the corporations. they got their bag and rode off into the sunset. As a result, the 10-20% that normally goes to the owner as profit now goes to corporations.
Thank you for raising such a valuable discussion..as vets we are always under the impression that we make a very high income ..in reality we make good not very good or excellent income compared to other professions ..thanks again
You’re very welcome
I understand that it's a medical procedure but what I don't understand is if a dog ate clothing and is getting it surgically removed, why is 2k more to take out the dead tissue? Legitimately I wanted an explanation but the vet ran away 😂
Vet tech here, short version is that GI surgery is extremely intensive. while any surgery is a to an extent there’s a lot of stuff that factors into anything GI related that make it way more complicated. for one, the success of a surgery depends heavily on how clean and sterile you keep things, and the inside of any part of the GI tract is absolutely filthy so the procedure requires more steps to make sure the pet doesn’t end up with raging peritonitis. there are also a lot of very important and very fragile blood vessels around the GI tract that make things tough. if you have to resect dead bowel tissue, it complicates things because the vet has to decide exactly what to take out and what to leave and then make a new junction from scratch. if you leave any necrotic tissue then you haven’t solved the problem, but removing too much will affect how the pet absorbs nutrients. i’m sorry the vet ran away though, i don’t have an explanation for that 😅
DVM here who has done a lot of these foreign body surgeries. Say you have a pair of panty hose (very common) stuck in the small intestine for several days. The pressure against the walls of the intestine cause a large portion of the intestine to die. When that happens, you have an abdomen full of rotting tissue that is well on its way to causing a septic abdomen, which is fatal pretty quickly. You have to remove the dead intestine, sew the healthy ends together, and clean out the abdomen. Then, you have to hope that the ends of intestine you sewed together don’t start to die, because then the animal is septic. It’s actually one of the more difficult soft tissue surgeries vets do.
Because that is a second procedure that also involves reattaching the viable parts of the intestine. Out of curiosity, how much do you think major abdominal surgery should cost?
Because it takes me 1.5x as long surgery and anesthesia. Along with a longer hospitalization/recovery.
No good doctor will release the patient unless is eating, not regurgitation, vomiting and good pain control with oral pain meds.
As I look through your very few videos and very many shorts, you do a lot of complaining about other people other professions why don’t you just stick to being positive about what you do rather than tearing other people down
When I see animals get mistreated or charlatans selling their brands of quackery to an audience of millions, I will speak out against it through this and other mediums.
@@DVMCellini it seems like you’re upset because he didn’t go through a traditional school you make mention of him not having specific credentials, but based on a knowledge of canines and how effective he is without without abusing or harassing them, simply by guiding them and building confidence in him has nothing to do with credentials. Certainly, we all understand, many people with credentials have very poor delivery skills that would be affective in reform or transforming in this case the animals that they are working with
It seems as though you need to post your techniques, and if they prove to be above and beyond what others are doing, you would gain the following as well
Criticizing does not help show what you can do or what you do or what you do is more effective than some other person
I would be curious to know how the salaries vary from each country (or region: UK, EU, CAN, US etc)
I agree with the comment that this is a fair way for vets to be paid. The Munger comment of "show me the incentives and I'll tell you the outcome" is valid, but there isn't a more fair way to pay in any profession, IMO, than a percentage of value the employee brings. This is the standard salesperson pay model as well, with target earnings, kickers, and the commonly misunderstood "quota" system as knobs to dial things in.
Thank you so much for discussing such a difficult subject! First, I want to highlight that I absolutely love my vets and that I think that they should be paid fairly. However, I can’t help it being shocked by the high salaries these vets reported. It feels like I went into the wrong field. 😮
I agree with another viewer that this pay-per-service was the model that human physicians used to practice to bring home huge salaries. A lot of evidence shows that this model encouraged excessive testing and procedures. Human physicians reported the main need for such inflated salaries were to pay their student loans, lawsuits, and liability insurance. Do vets have similar expenses?
Also, I would imagine that there are struggling veterinarians. Are there?
Thanks again
A lot of veterinarians graduating in recent years have huge loan burden. You have to also consider that during the time we are in internship and residency, salaries are so low that you cannot contribute to retirement. I can give my numbers as an example. I graduated vet school in 2011 and maxed out my federal loan borrowing at $162k. While this is high, this is isn’t shockingly high for the field. Following graduation I did an equine internship living in one of the most expensive counties in the state making $24k a year. From there I went into equine private practice in a Chicago suburb for three years where I made a base salary of 60k and could never make more than 70k a year even with production and busting my ass because the winters were slower and production was annual - not quarterly or monthly. Also, in equine it not uncommon for your production to be based on the accounts receivable, not billable. This means if a client didn’t pay their bill by the time production was calculated, it’s like I never did the work. I was on call 50% of the time and also had to do a bit of small animal as part of my contract (for which my boss got paid), some months leaving me with one day off. No retirement benefits and only two weeks vacation. Thanks to the economic collapse in 2008 student loan interest rates were at 6.8%, meaning I accumulated more than 1k of interest a month. Income based repayment doesn’t allow you to put a dent in the principle. Finances aside, I didn’t enjoy a lot of equine general practice and decided to pursue imaging. I took a one year role at an equine and small imaging clinic to see if I was genuinely interested in this specialty for 35k a year. This role and my following two roles as a small imaging intern (44k in San Diego) and diagnostic imaging resident (30k annually) in Texas also had associated moving costs. As a radiologist I will be able to pay back my loans and can save for retirement. I would otherwise be relying on student loan forgiveness and investing money along the way to pay the taxes on the forgiveness amount.
It’s easy to look at these salaries and think they’re inflated based solely on their dollar value. But you have to look at the whole picture - adequate compensation for education and skill level in addition to loan amount, accumulated interest, delayed retirement contribution, and missed income for years of post graduate training. And that’s just the financial side of things. The fact is this training requires an abundance of time and huge personal sacrifice that quite frankly, a lot of people aren’t willing to make or can’t hack.
That might be more info than you wanted but I hope it exemplifies how nuanced our situation can be as I am not an outlier. Thanks for reading if you made it this far 😊
Thank you so much for this thorough description of your situation as it explains better these salaries. Good luck with your student loan.
Hello sir ! I am fresh graduate and looking for job opportunity in foreign country.
I had no idea as a pet parent. Totally car salesman on % really pisses me off. Disagree they would be called out by staff!!!
Not a vet, but close to my vets and techs across several companies, things in the Twin Cities have been really bad since the pandemic (exasperated by). I live in south of the TC rural MN and several clinics have shut down and everybody else lost vets and techs who have left the industry due to burn out.
Hi Dr Cellini thank you for your videos! My question is how an internal medicine specialist has the same base salary with a GP (130k) and in some occasions less ? I know that we have only one example of an IM specialist but from your experience is this true? Is the base salary of an IM specialist around 130k ?
I have applied to become a student this year and am awaiting confirmation (if in the unlikely situation it doesn't happen this year I'll retake some things and make it happen next year 99.9%) and honestly made a deliberate choice NOT to Google anything to do with money in advance and choose between humans and animals based on feelings alone and not let money sway my decision but I'm honestly surprised positively that I will probably not be worried about putting food on my plate and glad I chose animals over humans not being swayed by perceived notions and sticking to my feelings. In Europe by the way but may be tempted to move to the US after graduating I must admit, not that European vets seemed to be starving themselves to keep the lights on and a roof over their heads either, maybe not quite as good but still pretty decent.
Edit: also for the record this is my second start at an entirely new career after already climbing up the ladder to the top of my current one and getting bored of it (hence why I may have to retake some courses since I never aimed for this and math/physics/engineering from 18 years ago struggles to compete with chem and bio from this or last year, I'm nearly 40 and did math/physics and am competing with 18/19 year olds that just did chem and bio) but even after more than 15 years to become an expert in a speciality the vet from the UK was not far off earning roughly the same ball-park despite not spending between 15 and 20 years climbing the ladder and specialising.
To be clear it will be a step down, but not as much as I feared., unless I move to the US, then it will be a significant step up.
Thanks for the informative video. Now I know why veterinary care costs have skyrocketed over the last 15 to 20 years- corporations now own the practices. For most of my life, vets owned their own practices. So they might make a good living, but there was no one adding massive profits to the bill. There was also no incentive to order endless tests. So veterinary care has gone the way of the human US healthcare system.
Being a vet student in Brazil, this video has made the biggest goal of my life at the moment to validat my diploma in the us. Veterinarians here with 5 years or more of experience are making roughly 66K Reais per year in GP, which would be around 12k dollars a year. Honestly, I study too hard to graduate only to afford food afterward. Sadly, that's the reality here.
Hey Dr. Cellini! I’m American studying in Ireland. The salaries here in Europe and in the UK are lower. Typically I see around 35-50k starting salary, but keep in mind Irish vet students pay much less in tuition than the North American students do. My tuition is about 35k per year whereas the Irish students only pay a couple thousand euro per year and come out with no student loans.
Hi Dr. Cellini, love the videos! Keep it up!
I had one detail about ProSal that I thought would be valuable for our fellow vets to consider as well. I am a vet in Canada but worked in the US for a few years around the pandemic for a corporate clinic paying prosal.
Even though the best raise would be an increase in percent earned for sure, an increase in your base salary makes you more money still as well. My sign on bonus and any production bonuses were taxed as a bonus, which was about 40%, whereas my salary was probably closer to 30%. By increasing your base salary you are saving that 10% in taxes and giving it to the doctor instead. Really high tax brackets may affect this some, but I think it's overall true for the majority of salaries. Just worth noting that if your boss gives you a base raise it can still be worth celebrating!:)
Hi Dr Cellini, Great video!
Do you have any idea about salary range of ophthalmologists ?
Thanks for the insightful video Dr. Jim and explaining the ProSal model more clearly. Speaking as an Emergency vet from Ontario Canada, the US numbers are definitely higher but in the ER realm it’s pretty comparable to achieve those numbers. I would say that the hourly model seems more common on our side of the fence though. As I am sure you know ER can be somewhat seasonal and especially on the ER side people get more anxious about the idea of incentivizing pay - because our field already gets a lot of flack for high prices. Just being paid hourly takes that out of the equation and I actually tell clients on the regular that “I don’t get paid anything for recommending test XYZ, I’m just paid by the hour” and people appreciate that. Now on the flip side if you’re smart, and work for corporate, you’ll be able to negotiate solid bonuses, CE, time off etc as ER vets are in such high demand.
Thankyou sooo much for this video. Im in australia and had no idea about the monthly bonus pays, but immediately lightbulb went off after you said it.
My vet bill is between $900.00 and 1100.00 every visit.
I gotta call you out for not including negative accrual.
hey doc! 2022 grad here. How do you ask for a RAISE then?If you can’t just ask for an increase base. Is the only option to ask for more production percent? I’m currently 160k 22% prod. On average bring in 110k/month for the hospital (SA ER/Gp)
Order more tests.
That 750 is me. Dumb not to do it.
The shade to the surgeons 😂😂😂
Amazing video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Lol. Big dog kibble 😂
I've only ever experienced one time in my life where I felt like I was being coerced to do testing that was unnecessary. I had just moved states and had a cat with FIV who would occasionally get sick (of course), so I made an appointment with some random clinic across the street from my apartment. Without my consent, someone did a blood draw on him while we were literally just chatting in the exam room. They then charged me like $200 for a blood work I didn't ask for and didn't even know what it was for.
A couple days later, they call me and say his blood work indicates he may have FIP, but it's hard to diagnose and an ultrasound will give them a better idea. They also told me FIP has no solid treatment and most cats pass within a few months of diagnosis. I loved this cat, but he was just some nasty little dude I literally took out of my mom's yard one day to get euthanized because I thought he was dying (he just had a bad URI he couldn't fight off himself). I had no interest in paying a few hundred for a meaningless test to confirm a diagnosis. They got really hostile with me and said they'd refuse to provide further service if I didn't consent to the ultrasound. Okay lol 🤷♀️
A diagnostic to rule something out is not useless. It served its purpose by ruling something in or out. That is how diagnostic testing works. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?
@@worrell3831 Because I was charged for a diagnostic I did not consent to and then was told I will be refused service if I don't agree to a second one for an incurable illness??? Did you not read my post?
Edit: Like this was for some nasty street cat of unknown age that I really was not financially invested in. All I wanted was some meds for his URI he got every seasonal change due to his FIV lmao.
Why does it cost 12 dollars to throw a used needle away?
It doesn’t
@@DVMCellini 🤣🤣🤣
I think our biohazard waste fee is $2 or so.
It sounds very much like corporate care - just like in human medicine. Not so many years ago, almost all vet and doctor offices were independent. Now you can't find an independent anything. Every doctor and vet could make lots more money on their own and one of the reasons either choses to work for a corporation is protection from lawsuits, another is it is easier to let a big corporation handle everything. Rural vets do not work for corporations either. That might be the reason for his income.
It is coroate, the billing is insane, one night of care for my dog, just fluids and anti- biotics was $2000 Canadian. The one positive is the availability of high tech if you want to pursue those options.
Vote for loan forgiveness so new grads can afford to own a practice. You can't expect someone with 200k+ in student loans to buy a practice when a corporate consolidator can come offer 3x market value for the same practice.
Ah, this is why the vet wants me to give my cat an ECG every year. $545. 😨 She does have a bit of a heart murmur that hasn't gotten worse in five years.
Sounds like it’s perhaps medically indicated?
@@DVMCellini Yeah, true. It just feels kinda excessive. But on the other hand, she is now a senior (12-13) so I kinda want the peace of mind.
Additionally, it can be a CYA since NOT suggesting it, and then later finding your cat’s heart condition has suddenly become way worse. If for some reason this went to the state board, they would mention that it was a “gold standard” at least recommend the ECG. They may not knock the vet for that, but it may be mentioned. It’s really a double edged sword.
Plus the vet isn’t in charge of the cost of the testing…
Plus if I’d would be a human or a pet with health insurance there would be no discussion so it’s obviously not excessive from a medical point of view, just financially and the financial decision are the owners responsibility not the vets. Since cats only get +/- 15yrs old it’s as if a human with a heart condition would get an ECG every 5 yrs, who calls that excessive?
All you all overcharge for everything. So many pets are being dumped because of you vets nobody can afford to get vet work done due your greed.
Thanks
It's not the vets. It's their corporate bosses. Big corporation invests in the facility, the machines, does the billing, hires the help, etc., and must increase their profits year after year to make more off of their investment. That's how capitalism works, if it's not growing, it's dying.
Vets like it better because they don't have to work as many hours (witness thinking that 20 shifts a month is a lot of work, when most of us work at least that much at our first job, not counting our second jobs). We have sacrificed human health to our corporate overlords, and now they have come for our pets. Only rich people will be able to keep pets from now on. But hey, Americans LOVE capitalism and are terrified of any other economic alternative, so we get what we ask for.
How many dogs have you trained? Seems to me like 0, because you have no idea how dogs work.
Wrong video
@@DVMCellini nope, seems like if you are putting commentary about dogs, you should at least know how to make a dog heel while walking with a dog next to you. But doctors suck at life