Bad Deck Advice | Commander | Magic: the Gathering
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- Опубликовано: 5 мар 2024
- What do you do when you get unhelpful advice for your EDH deck?
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Игры
Cut a land. Source: Trust me bro you’ll draw one.
Some of the BEST advice I’ve ever gotten was to build your deck as normal, and then cut the 2 least essential cards and swap them for lands. Idk what the actual data is but all of my decks “feel” so much better when I play them after implementing that advice. I almost never miss land drops now and flooding isn’t really an issue with the style of decks I’m playing
@@jaredbobier2844a funny comment a pro made was that you can take any 60 card deck online and improve it just by running 2 more lands. Your friend's advice might come from that?
With london mulligan + a free mulligan? Yeah, kinda. For some decks that is absolutely true.
Haha maybe if you replace it with draw source.
@@altromonte15ive mulliganed 4 times in a row with 7 cards each time (cause thats how me and my ex played) got 0 lands in hand each time and there was 39 lands in the deck.
Worst advice was that my commander was just unplayable. Best advice was " make sure you actually have fun playing your deck"
I play Reveka, Wizard Savant to helm my monoblue deck.
Sure I have like three cards to help the commander “do her thing” but really it stemmed from wanting to make a monoblue commander deck, looking for any blue legend I owned, and seeing she had the lowest mana value.
Reveka in the command zone and on the battlefield conveys what I want: it is a slow blue deck without good creatures. It gains control of other people’s creatures and uses counterspells, but that is the surprise for later. Arcanis the Omnipotent is clearly a superior commander and is in the 99. Obviously Talrand would be a better choice, but you can see the value on those cards. Reveka, not so much, and so the “unplayable” nature of the commander actually helps the rest of that deck by lowering people’s expectations and guard.
I also run a 4 color Ur-Dragon deck, so the commander is actually 99% unplayable (and the final 1% is by my personal play restriction), but that has eminence, so does that count?
It heavy Depends what you expect from the Command/ Deck.
Some Commanders are Not good at yx
which commander was it?
No Commander is unplayable!
Having fun is the most important! ❤️
Honestly, you could remove the EDH context and this video is just A+ life skills advice.
👏👏👏
Best advice.. I remember you said "don't optimize the fun" out of your deck.. it's so tru.. one of the best podcasts on RUclips for mtg.. I usually ask advice to see creative gameplays..
"Don't optimize the fun out of your deck" is the best advice a casual player like myself can get behind!
My favorite move is "that's a good idea, I'll consider that" when really I have no intention of doing so lol
Just grow a pair of nuts and say "no thank you"
that's a good idea, I'll consider that@@aklepatzky
@@seanwatson1724 youre welcome
@@aklepatzky No thank you.
*Walks away confused*
@@seanwatson1724 youre welcome
I remember one time a friend couldn't afford a Cyclonic Rift in her deck, so I suggested she play River's Rebuke instead. I even demonstrated how good River's Rebuke can be in game (ended up winning).
Rivers rebuke is so good!
River's Rebuke and also Aether Gale@@jaredbobier2844
Hmm.... Y'know, I'm starting to think this might be about more than just deck advice.
Great video
Joey showing why he's one of my favorite commentators in the Commander Content Creator community by being reasonable, helpful, and not taking a controversial position just for the clicks.
Legitimately good advice on how to both give and receive constructive criticism in deck building.
*Edited for spelling*
I've given bad advice before but that's ok. The deck owner pointed out where I went wrong and I learned something.
right? Just have a conversation about what your trying to do. Not that hard, or eehhhhh just trying to have fun and thats why i am playing it.
The "change the commander" comment always drives me nuts, as I always build my decks with the commander in mind, not select the commander based on the gameplay
I went to my LGS with my Kozilek deck, which I had spent hours on tailoring the mana values of cards to maximize his counter ability while still having other synergies. I was really proud and excited to try it. First game, some guy hits me with “You should switch your commander to Selvala, Heart of the Wild, it’s way better.”
Some people have no tact.
@@Skyfyshthose two commanders literally do not share a single synergy I can think of. Not only was that a rude way to give you a suggestion (and an out of pocket one at that), it’s just not even close to the same thing.
@user-pq8on8bx9g recently some content creators have started championing building decks that don't rely as much on the commander, mostly because of how much more prevalent removal has become.
I'm more of the opinion of slotting in more protection if your deck is very commander focused
@user-pq8on8bx9g I've had to build decks for my son that run well without his commander. He seems to rarely play them. 😂 he is 14 now. Plays Aesi most of the time, with big sea monsters as the theme. And he rarely drops his commander on curve.
@@user-pq8on8bx9gI’ve been brewing a lot of decks around themes that either aren’t supported well by any commander. One example is a curse deck which uses Garth One-Eyed as the commander instead of Lynde, because I like the access to all 5 colors of curses and I don’t like Lynde’s play patterns.
All I've learned from 13 years of Edh is that most people who play this game are socially inept, have all the tact of a Jehova Witness, and spend most of their time judging what other people enjoy or do.
Ah, so they're "Humans"?
@@michaelsparks1571They are more like Thrulls.
Micheal I don't know what kind of humans you surround yourself with but you need better humans. Starting with yourself because no honest person would reply as you did, I could use your same logic to say "oh he killed 25 people? So he's just human?!" come on, be better.
I've gotten into the habit of asking something along the lines of "what do you find the deck struggles with" when someone asks for advice with a deck. It lets me get on the same wavelength as the other person I'm trying to help & lets me know what I should be looking at with the deck. Like you were saying, it keep me from suggesting ways to deal with artifacts when they want to find ways to keep their commander on the field
The best advice I have every gotten was from my boyfriend for my Veyran, Voice of Duality deck. It was my first ever deck and I love it. I used EDHRec and included many burn and shock payoffs for casting spells. My boyfriend suggested to build him more focused around combat since I never really made use of the +2/+2 they get for every cast and copy of instants and sorceries which I was already doing. Now I regularly hit him for 30+ damage in one single combat and he and I love it :D
the worst advice i was ever given was that i'm dumb for not wanting to play rhystic study and smothering tithe because the value is just too good to ignore and that i need to just get over it and use them either way because not using them because they are unfun is dumb and i can't win without them
Yikes.
I hate stupid "advice" like this. I actively take Sol ring out of my decks because it's too strong and I'm trying to have fun here. Winning isn't the only goal, especially at the expense of friendships.
@@Proudfootzorz yea, i'm all for winning, but i'de rather lose but have a fun game than win while everyone is misserable. Some people just dont understand that
@@jaredbobier2844 yea, it only got worse when i told them that i couldn't play them if i wanted because i can't afford them and i sold the copies i had long ago to pay bills lol
I've won countless of games without those. I really just don't enjoy asking "pay the 1?".
Unsubscribed and re-subscribed so I can avoid mana flood next Tuesday when I get together with the boys for kitchen table EDH!
I had no idea, thanks Joey! 🙏
You should have run Sol Ring in this video.
😂
Sol Ring should be banned
"Subscribe because its a proven fact that subscribing prevents mana flood" 🤣😂
Came here to make that point lol
It's science!
My first interaction with the “I know everything” guy at my LGS, happened the first day I entered this LGS when I moved into the city I currently live in. I was at the counter chatting with the store clerk about a few cards I need for a build I was excited about. This guy hears me across the store and asks “What are you gonna do with that card?” I said “I’m building Tivit.” He went “Don’t build Tivit.” in an attitude. (Right when New Capenna had newly released.)
I didn’t know this guy. Was new at that store. Excited about my new deck to be, but he had decided that I shouldn’t do what I wanted to do.
Two years in, I now organize game nights at that LGS, with 30 or so people in a local discord I’ve created and run. I still play Tivit and see this guy act as if he is above everybody else every EDH night and cringe.
I don’t play with him because it genuinely is a bad experience. Did once for two games. He talked over everyone. Nonstop giving unsolicited “advice”. First game took too long and he didn’t shut up, so I took him out first the second game we played.
He doesn’t like me either because he knows how I feel about him, which is ok, lol.
Sounds like that guy doesn't know anything, I was excited to build Tivit too, and seeing Tivit in random cEDH lists, means that guy probably doesn't know as much as he says
Sounds like this guy needs to stop giving bad advice and learn how to be a person other people want to co-exist around instead.
@@Vertrie He wasn't advising that I don't build because he thought Tivit wasn't powerful, it was rather because it was a commander he didn't like, or I guess wouldn't build. So, y'know, naturally others can't feel any other way about a commander.
I was building Tivit for casual when he first came out. Was going the voting route but then went clones/blink instead. Was pretty upset when Ian put it on a ton of people's radar and then it became meta lol. Nowadays people give me a stank eye when I pull him up. I don't run Time Sieve in the casual list either. I play him in cEDH every now and then when I get bored of Kinnan lol.
@@jaredbobier2844 but don't you know? Everybody wants to be around this guy, how dare you even suggest otherwise? He knows anything and everything, and you should be praising him. Non-stop.
@@lokumo13 lol no way, I built Tivit around voting and politics too, and it definitely has gotten a lot more difficult for him at tables now, I ended up incorporating flicker effects for protection, but, still trying to keep the voting in
I thought I was subbed along time ago! No wonder I was getting mana Flooded all this time 😢 fixed! Subscribed! You're awesome Joey!
From reading some of the other comments, I think people are conflating criticism with advice.
If someone is just asking whether I have ever thought of including a particular card, I would just briefly explain why I do not (or in some cases, maybe I take their advice because it was very helpful). If it was an online comment, I may just not respond…
That’s very different from someone telling me they think a particular card I’m using sucks and that I shouldn’t play it…
Yeah, I honestly wonder whether Joey's framing of someone asking "hey, have you ever considered this cool card?" and him ultimately not deciding to play the card as "bad advice" comes more from the fact that, as a content creator, he gets a ton of messages all the time, so even suggestions that are friendly but not super useful are annoying and unwanted. For someone who's *not* famous online, such as myself, another player politely asking if I've heard of X card is less "bad advice" and more "an opportunity for friendly conversation".
I think the key element for giving good deck advice is the approach. Saying "You should play this", "remove this X card" "why don't you have X in your deck" feel in my opinion intrusive and hurt the creativity of the deck builder meanwhile asking for instance "What do you think of this card" or "In this kind of decks I really like this card because XYZ" or "did you know about this synergy" feels more open minded leads to more healthy conversations
That's usually how I approach people after a game with advice if I do give any. Mentioning or show cards that fit the deck or strategy they have Goin that I find fun and they might not know of.
As an example I often mention the cards like fissure to people playing mono red or red plus another color decks as a decent creature removal spell with the additional utility of being able to snipe cards like cabal coffers.
I personally like the wording "Have you considered X because of Y?" To me, it makes it sound less like you're telling someone what to do and more like you're sharing thoughts without making it sound like you think you know better than them.
Because the answer always is “this card is a nickel and the card you’re suggesting is $10 and if I took all of your suggestions to buy singles this deck would be $500 instead of $5” I will take any excuse to run my decree of savagery no matter how awful the card is.
Joe bringing emotional intelligence and wisdom to the table as always ❤
I always get the okay to give advice, or if it's a new card I'll say "have you seen x? Might be good in there" or "have you considered x" because if they have, then great no advice needed. And it allows them to give their reasons on it. Saying "you should...." or "you're not running x....?" Is definitely not the way to go about it
Hard disagree
@@aklepatzkywhy? Seems reasonable.
Just letting Joey know that one of his decks (Baby Lasagna) will be in Eurovision this year.
What? How? Is it the name of a band?
Yes, Croatia sent a performer called Baby Lasagna@@jjvh500
A performer is named Baby Lasagna. @@jjvh500
@@jjvh500Yep. Representing Croatia.
Joey sass is real in this video. Loving it!
When you said "sometimes they suggest a card and it's 40-50 dollars" I immediately thought of my friend who keeps doing the opposite. He'll say "are you playing X?" And I'll say no, I don't have one, and he'll say "why not, they're down to like 1 or 2 dollars." And it's funny, because he understands that I'm a budget player, but not that the way I stay budget is by not buying cards. A card being cheap does not mean it is in my hands, and I'm not the type of person to just buy stuff online every time I think of something. I'll happily trade one off of him but if he doesn't have one and I don't and no one in our playgroup does then it might as well not exist for me. And I'm okay with that!
Plus, if you're really taking a liking to a card and genuinely want a copy, proxies are quite budget friendly. Either that or trading into your LGS are much better options than online anyway.
Interesting to hear the "Why no ×?" included. I sometimes ask to try to learn someone's opinion on a certain card because they may know something I don't
Here is some unsolicited advice! The kind that people always take to heart. When you use the word why it triggers defensiveness, try rephrasing the question using how or what. “What role does x play in the deck” “how does x play out in game?” Not only do you end up with a more thoughtful and precise question, you will surely get a more thoughtful answer. People love to share their assumed “knowledge” if given the opportunity instead of being asked to defend themselves.
See I shared my assumed knowledge and nobody even asked!
@@andrewneubauer3378 Lol, yeah that is probably better than just "May I ask why you don't run ×?"
@@andrewneubauer3378youre too soft
Joey giving people advice on how to be social. Love it, probably needed more then most of us would like to admit. ))
The way Joey can see everything in the more positive light is admirable.
Joey out here giving good life advice wrapped in a magic shell:). Awesome vid.
Great topic Joey. I always appreciate how you blend being a better person with being better at magic. I think in our communities we can be a little sensitive. It comes from pouring so much of ourselves into the game, but leads to something akin to walking with all your muscles flexed. When giving and taking advice, really being relaxed about it goes a long way and I like that in your examples both the uptight and relaxed energy shone through. I find the well intentioned advice from the person who doesn't play the archetype is the toughest to receive for exactly the reason you outlined, and am totally going to try what you suggested the next time it comes up. Thanks! Funnily enough, the worst advice I've ever heard is one I've given sarcastically to just add more lifegain and they'll be fine, in an attempt to get people to relax and laugh, and sure enough that's what happened. The best advice I've ever heard is play more basics; advice doesn't always have to be surgically perfectly suited to exactly one thing to be good advice, the umbrella of good advice has room for general rules tooo and honestly when I'm deciding between my last two cards slots often cutting both cards and adding two basics leads to a net of more fun. For the more specialized advice the best I got was when I gave my deck to a friend for a week and asked him to upgrade it keeping the soul of the deck intact. That's worked well everytime I've done it
Fantastic advice! It's a lot of similar advice that I've read about for providing feedback in writing workshops - looks like I should apply it to both spaces!
I don't run a lot of staples in my decks, specifically when it comes to ramp and removal. I run things that synergize with my Commander. So people often suggest that stuff and I love to see their face when I tell them I don't run Kodama's Reach or Cultivate in any of my decks with green.
“Just run more removal” is my favorite unwanted advice ever 😂
I mean, if someone just complains about card X, then you look at their deck and it refuses to interact, maybe, some interaction might maybe mitigate that?
To be fair if ya complain about a hate piece then yeah you should add removal and not get salty about it
I mostly play Boros jank and always wait for someone to ask "why don't you play Winota?", before I cast Soul of Eternity and Fling it towards them. Always kill the mouthy one.
2:35 I love unintentional puns. You were talking about people coming in hot, but their advice was pretty cold… because snow lands. 😂
There is no shortage of influencers showing players how to up their Magic. Joey's out here showing us how to up The Gathering.
Honestly some of the best deck advice I've ever gotten was using your mana base as a tool, not a required checklist of "the good lands." I put a good amount of utility in my manabase and it's been very helpful
The worst advice is telling people to get salty about unsolicited advices. An advice is a suggestion, not mandatory by any mean. Everybody just chill out a little.
I love how a lot of these advice tips also are right on point to real life work scenarios.
Its advice like this that's made me become more specific about what kind of help I'm looking for in my deckbuilding. Like "whats the best option out of these four cuts/additions", or "I have too many boardwipes, which are the best three I should keep". Focusing peoples' perspectives has helped me downsize this problem a little but. It can still happen, but I feel better knowing I'm moving the needle in the right direction.
I really like the point about specifying where your deck is struggling at the outset. It gives the other person a pointed thing to look for & solve for, and gets away from broad "good" cards. Also gives you a better way to decline some options, since you led with a rationale.
Love me some Joey content before bedtime
I feel like the worst advice I received is in relation to my Ojer Pakpatiq Deck.
I don't enjoy winning with Lab Maniac, Oracle or The Jace that want you to deck out. I enjoy highly interactive games that require a lot of interplay between players and every time I've tried to run to one of those cards it feels like trying to be interactive is detrimental to the strategy. The problem is that when I show people might ask that draw a lot of cards these three are some of the first cards they recommend, and when I say I don't want to use those cards, I have had multiple times people say that they don't know how to help me then.
People just give up after I politely say "no, can we try something else."
Conversely the best advice with somebody who did respond by looking with me further into carpools to find options I did like. Notably Psychosis Crawler and Alandra, Sky Dreamer, which still makes drawing a wincon but not drawing out.
Look for advice together even after the person says no to your first option.
When Shivan asked on Twitter for help with his Mardu treasures deck I made sure to ask him exactly what he was looking for first. Any suggestion for cutting/adding was backed up with the reasoning behind it.
One suggestion he didn’t take was swapping Vandalblast for Shattering Spree. The deck was already heavy in red, makes treasures, is more political, and at the time was cheaper. He still wanted to stick with Vandalblast and I was fine with it.
I did, begrudgingly, suggest swapping out Nadier for Armix, but it wasn’t because Nadier is bad or anything. He made many changes to the deck that I and others suggested. At one point towards the final cuts, Armix seemed to be more in line with what the deck was doing. It’s not a suggestion that I made lightly and he still stuck with Nadier. He seems to be happy with it, so I’m happy for him.
I have a decklist with over 1000 comments... I feel this topic on a spiritual level. Mostly they are trying their best to give genuine advice, so I try to give a good answer to why it doesn't work.
Generally before I try to give advice is to ask what restrictions/caveats/budget/game plan to the deck, if they haven't stated it already.
Hey Joey man, cringe is a perfectly descriptive word that accurately describes the thing/situation. I'm personally proud of you for using the word for its actual definition, instead of as a social bitcoin. =D
I think the episode about not playing Sol Ring in some decks was the best “advice” I’ve ever received. What it really said was: question the “staples”. I still use plenty of staples, but now I typically start my lists with “Cards I Want to Try”, rather than “These 30 Cards Must Be in Every Green Deck”. Later I’ll figure out which must-haves really fit the deck and I’ll add them.
Losely related, I recently replaced commander Eesha in my mono white auras deck with light paws.
It felt bad, and I felt like I was firing a friend who had worked for me for decades.
Giving deck advise is like telling what clothes you should wear. Asking for it is a complete different thing
Lately I've been helping some people who post deck advice threads in a discord group I'm part of. Sometimes I see a deck that has a similar game plan or commander to one of my own decks and I jump into the thread to offer some suggestions based on my own experience. I'll admit, I run into an issue that this video mentions where a card I suggest to cut is part of a synergy I didn't immediately see, is a particular budget option, or it happens to be a pet card. However, those replies help me understand what the deck creator is going for when it wasn't obvious to me. I still enjoy the process of helping out with deck suggestions and I would say participating in the process occasionally helps me find cards to put in my own deck too!
This video got me thinking about how to better approach questions and concerns with deck advice, so thanks Joey!
To be fair there is really no way to tell what someone's pet card is unless you see their deck lists so suggesting to cut that is the least offensive thing as you had no way of knowing it was their pet card. Now i honestly think Sol Ring is just a pet card to most commander players as to me it is not that good of a card even if it is strong as decks don't really need it if they have a proper mana base, to me the card Sol Ring just looks like a filler card as they could not think of something else to put in instead
Sure Sol Ring is strong in 60 card formats that are not singleton and such but EDH not that much
I think another part to consider is "local meta". Different playgroups play differently. I recently built an artifact deck where I could have put in cards like Boros Charm to protect my permanents, but I didn't. The deck is incredibly weak to things like Vandalblast, a turn 5 or 6 Vandalblast is likely to delete every single non-land permanent I've played that game. But that doesn't matter in my playgroup, because I have *never* seen a Vandalblast cast in a game I was in. My playgroup tends to care more about spot removal and creature control, so I put in more creature protection instead.
Whenever people ask me for help, I always try to ask "hey, what are you trying to do here?" Recent example was a customer with a Vohar deck, and I wanted to know if it was a "death by a thousand cuts, drain you little by little" sort of deck or a straight up reanimator with a looter in the command zone. With that in mind, we found out wich cards didn't work well in the list and found some bulk big beaters to get the deck closer to the shape it wanted to be in.
There can be a time when suggesting a new commander is appropriate. When someone is trying out a precon that deliberately comes with a 2nd or 3rd commander in there and a good little chunk of the deck already synergises with it.
Or if someone is running a secret/hidden commander and it's more vital to their plan than the one in their command zone and they complain that it's not working how they anticipated.
Either way the most important thing for giving advice is that it's genuine and wanted. If the person doesn't ask you for advice and you still want to offer it, you should always ask the person first.
A little late to the party, but my main deck Osgir, the Reconstructor became what it is today, thanks to the fact I was told to "just build a Nekusar deck if you want to do damage by drawing cards." And this is a situation I was looking for advice.
I wanted to brew it with Osgir, and he kept saying that I couldn't make a wheels and hurt with it in red-white without the support that comes in blue.
Not only was I able to make it and now have a more Tremors theme as a companion to it, but it made me able to find so many of my favorite artifacts to play with because it got me to find some unique cards I didn't see people ever playing.
Yeah i hate it when people just go out of their way to just not be helpful instead of just ignoring you altogether or just say they don't know how they could help if you actually asked a individual directly
LOVE hearing you talk about Baba! Always talk about Baba!! haha.
I recently put together a deck helmed by sliver gravemother, my purpose for the deck wasnt to do a “sliver” deck but instead it uses slivers as a support for individually threatening cards through maskwood nexus and similar effect, in particular using gravemothers effect to encore out dragons as a 3 for 1, after laying all this out and asking for feedback on my initial unrefined list the first piece of advice i was given was
“Focus more on slivers”
I do not believe they read my deck concept
Best advice I’ve ever been given is: stop shuffling like an idiot, riffle shuffle, then pile shuffle in piles of five. That magically fixed so many things and even today I don’t even know why
I can't remember if I set the deck to 'needs help' or not, but I once got crazy good feedback from some guy on tapped out. I had a cool idea to use live wire lash in an infect Deck, but was having trouble getting it to hook up very well. Dude had a ton of great card ideas that really helped get things in the pocket. His line of thinking stuck with me so much that I eventually just gave up on livewire lash and just crammed in a bunch buffs that I almost never have to pay for. That deck is bumping now. So aggro
I think that a lot of people get too competitive and min/max the fun out of a deck, I recently de-tuned a deck of mine by taking some tutors out and while I haven't won with it as much since but I've had way more fun 👍
Also, bad advice. "How much ramp and draw you got in there?" I give numbers. "Oh well you need more of that." Look back at Rakdos deck. "Errr, thanks man."
Wait, I think I don't get it. Rakdos has lots and lots of options for card advantage and ramp.
@@avall0nNn1992RB ramp outside of colorless is cards nagative single use for the vast majority. Red aweful at card advantage too.
Some red ramp is insane (ogres and dockside) and some black advantage (ad-naus) but that’s not a lot
@@breyor1 thinking outside of colorless is already a huge exception since colorless has the best ramp in the game and every color has access to it. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, fellwar stone, the Talismans and Arcane Signet will always be good. Then there are less good but still playable options in the Signets and other 2 cmc rocks that come in untapped. Red and black have the best rituals in the game and it is not even a contest, look at a card like Jeska's Will. Red can ramp via treasures like hell, Ragavan, Professional Face Breaker, Dockside, Magda. Then there are powerhouses like Birgi that let you cast insane amounts of cheap spells. Black has Coffers, Crypt Ghast, Grim Hireling and so many Options to cheat mana costs.
Draw in red is often impulse draw, that is true but they do it with such little regulation and combined with such huge amounts of explosive mana that it doesnt even matter. Black is the second best color at drawing cards in the game. Ad Naus, Necropotence, dark confidant, black market connections, Vilis, Yawgmoth, all the lose X life and draw X cards stuff.
I can see that this could become an issue in lower powered games because the decks are not as good at finishing games but at higher powerlevels it really is no issue. If we Look at the Most popular Rakdos Commanders we also find a good amount of draw in the command zone Prosper, Ob Nixilis, Anje.
I definitely appreciate this subject. I sometimes get comments on decks I never asked for feedback on. I think my favorite was somebody suggesting Armageddon in my Thalia and The Gitrog Monster lands deck. Like yeah mass land destruction is very powerful in a lands deck, but I would much rather keep my friends
I have a shorikai reanimator/polymorph list that i built when i started playing magic and when i built that deck i felt pressured to add some very powerful cards that were hitting well above the power level of what i was wanting to do with my list. The best advice i ever received was to just play what i want and ever since its gone from a list i rarely played to my favourite list i own even though i made it significantly weaker dropping cards like blightsteel collussus for cards like patron of the moon has increased my enjoyment of the list substantially
Most deck 'advice', like most life advice, is not given with the intent to benefit its receiver but to talk up its giver. If the first step of someone giving advice is not them asking a question but making a statement, they don't care if you listen but just want to be heard speaking. People who start with 'why do you have X in your deck, what is it for?' instead of 'get rid of X' and 'have you considered how well Y would work in your curve' instead of 'you should run Y' are usually worth at least considering, as long as they are prepared to take 'I know, I don't want to' as an answer.
That said, the best piece of deck advice I have received and now give is technically bad advice for optimising - always include one card in your deck that is not particularly good, but that is thematically excellent or very fun, and that is not eligible to be cut. Sandwurm Convergence in a Hazezon deck, or the Cookie creatures in a Goose Mother deck. Designating one card as an inclusion only for fun breaks the seal on optimising, giving you permission to include other cards that are there to make fun moments instead of win slightly more, and mean you can no longer truly optimise the fun out of the deck.
Yes, never manaflat anymore!
I look to EDH/ Commander for a lighthearted, fun social experience. I don’t win often, but I do enjoy watching other players go off.
I sorta have an example of the "change ur commander". I just built the 1st draft of a Niv-Mizzet combo deck. N when I had my friend print a proxy of Parun he asked if I was switching The Firem8nd for Parun as my commander. N i had to give a definitive "no!" n then explained y Parun is only a backup commander if I happen to play against a blue deck that I know will have lots of counterspells. Cuz the best I can combo with Parun is to play him on turn 8 for UUURRR, then use a U for Curiosity, n then at least 1 more coloured mana for an instant or sorcery to start the ball rolling n I wouldnt have any mana left to protect the Curiosity from a counterspell or from removal if I only had a sorcery to start the infinite loop, or protect Parun himself from removal while Curiosity is on the stack. Whereas with The Firemind, I can play cards like Sol Ring, Palladium Myr, or Worn Powerstone to ramp 2 mana, or Dragonspeaker Shaman for a 2 mana reduction of my commander, meaning I can play it on turn 4, or with Ancient Tomb or Temple of the False God on turn 5. N if it does happen to get countered or removed, then it goes back to the command zone n the more important card of Curiosity is still safe in my hand. N then on turn 5 or 6, I can play Curiosity with 5 or 6 mana to back it up with my own counterspells in case my opponents drew 1 since last turn or had a counter specifically for noncreature spells. So the best case with Parun is to win on turn 8, while The Firemind can win on turn 5 or 6. So only in 1 niche case does Parun outclass The Firemind. I might not even keep Parun in the 99 by the time the deck is done, TBH. My 2nd draft has alrdy cut 21 or 22 cards to make room for other things (the 22nd card is Imperial Recruiter which I'm looking into 2 or less power creatures that could fit in thise now open slots that would make it worth it to keep the Recruiter. But as u also said, sometimes it is not even the mechanics that r important, i have a foil of The Firemind that I got yrs ago in the Dragons Vs Knights duel decks. N personally I've always loved the flavour text on the original Niv-Mizzet since the weird equation actually spells out his name when u turn the card sideways (like when u tap him for his ability), n that piece of flavour alone is 10% of the reason I'd choose him over his future version. So it wasn't a bad question but as a newer player he saw a more powerful card n thought I was leaning to replace my commander when power level wasn't the most valuable part of evaluating the 2 cards, synergy was.
N an example of people not getting the decks synergies would be when people suggest great token producing creatures for my Rhys, the Redeemed deck... my deck is built so that none of my creatures care about dying. My 1st draft had 9+ board wipes n the deck focuses on creatures who die in order to create tokens or get off powerful abilities. So if a creature needs to stick on the field to improve my gameplan, then it is a win more card instead of a comback card n thus doesnt fit in the deck. The commander himself is 2 colours but thx to hybrid mana pnly costs 1 n that itself is key cuz it means i don't care most of the time qhen he dies cuz I can replay him more times than people have removal in their decks. I've never been in a spot where I didnt have enough mana to cast him even after he has died 10+ times, whereas I see others in my playgroup that get butthurt about removal cuz now they have to wait at least 2 more turns to play their commander n then it gets removed again, n again, n they r basically skipping multiple turns to recast it. The best removal cards r Path to Exile n Swords to Plowshares... so at the very least on that first use I'm mana neutral n up in card advantage, n I'm either up a man or up some life. Or someone uses an Assassin's Trophy in which case they spent more mana than me n again im up on mana n card advantage. By that 2nd cast even a Beast Within or Generous Gift is mana neutral but also drops their card advantage n gives me a 3/3 tokan that my devk could make so many copies of. The deck is themed on evolution n extinction, n it feels that way when I play it. It isn't about swatming the field, but about inheriting the field after a after a board wipe. "The meak shall inherit the Earth." It is the EDH deck that I've had the longest n I believe was the 3rd one I ever built. Oona, Queen of the Fae was 1st cuz milling in EDH makes me laugh, n the 2nd was me tweaking n redesigning Kaalia of yhe Vast cuz dragons r awesome. But Oona now sits in a janky 60 card I have n Kaalia helps support my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck (tho it needs some heavy redesign, n no, i don't do the phyrexian mana infect combo, in cEDH that would work but in a multiplayer game that is just mean cuz it only kills 1 player n then they sit there for 2 hrs while everyone else plays)
My general takeaway from getting advice, is that a lot of people just suck at it, because they don't know the difference between 'constructive criticism' and 'destructive criticism'.
I usually don't take advice for all the reasons you mentioned.
However sometimes you'll see opponents play some cool tech that is just a perfect fit for one of your decks. Often these cards are used by budget brewers too, who tend to have cards that most people overlooked.
The most recent example for me was Aboleth Spawn before people started picking it up.
Came for the deck tech, stayed for the social emotional learning!
Worst advice was being told to overly optimize a deck because they thought I wouldn't get be able to stand up against a Krenko deck. Best advice was being reminded to keep decks fun to play against.
"Change the Commander." I will keep playing Tergrid, thank you.
I always enjoy your videos like this, Joey. Keep up the great work, as always.
Only time you should EVER recommend a different commander is when someone explicitly explains that they really want to build a theme, but they don't think their commander is contributing to the theme well enough
Usually after a game if a person's deck got my interest ill ask if they have seen/use x or y cards or if i saw that they were struggling in a certain area with there deck during a game. Like ramp or color fixing. Its rare if i ask someon why they use a specific commander unless its one that has nothing to do with the overall deck strategy then i might ask why or suggest a different one saying it fits what there build does. Cause not every magic player knows of every card that exists so besides the obvious "staples" i often mention niche cards people might not of known of.
I try not to meta people's decks like what often people try. like for example in my super friends deck i specifically dont run doubling season in it mainly cause it tends to take a lot of the fun of playing the deck out by just turning each game into finding it and ulting walkers rapidly. So instead i run a lot of cards that add additional counters like pir so not only do my opponents have a chance to respond to the walkers but it gives me more of an incentive to use walkers with good early plus and minus ablities instead of big flashy ults.
So often the criticism i get of the deck is why i dont run doubling season or other cards that allow for faster wins and its solely for the reason of having fun back and forth games with the table.
had this happen when I was building my Tetzin, Gnome Champion artifact combo deck, I asked a few people at my locals for help and one of then suggested I take out all the bad dual faced artifacts for things like underworld breach brain freeze combos and the walking balista heliod combo and I looked at him like, did you read the commander? after he read the commander he understood why all the dual faced artifacts were in the deck.
Another "bad advice" I'd say to avoid giving out is recommending well-known combos that are actually massive nonbos for that deck.
For example, when I show my Tayam, Luminous Engine deck to others, I'll often get asked why I'm running Devoted Druid, but NOT running things like Swift Configuration or Vizier of Remedies as infinite-G combos. Well because I WANT the counters on my creature, and if I make Druid "not a creature", I can't remove the counters (Tayam specifically says "from creatures"). The deck can do much more with repeatable chunks of 3mana+3counters instance than it can do with infinite-mana. Heck, the only "infinite mana" combo actually in the deck I can still win with all that extra mana just floating because I don't have or need anything to spend it on.
The good news about my favorite deck is that I never need deck advice on it EVER because the win cons and the strategy are so overly simplistic that every time a new set comes out I know exactly what would make it better or worse and then just look to see if any cards contribute to that strategy. It's Azorius soldiers (almost all human soldiers really) and things that allow my soldiers to get in for dmg evasively, create lots of soldier tokens quickly or efficiently, and then things which produce good card draw in Blue and White which either are soldier based or are otherwise synergistic with aggression or pillowforting are pretty much it. Then, the only other thing is just cards which may phase out all or selected creatures or permanents or grant indestructible, hexproof and so on to protect my go wide strategy. At this point I feel like I've perused every single card possible within that framework so when Suppressor Skyguard came out and when Trouble in Pairs came out I felt like I hit the lottery for synergy with my deck! Haha
I was playing a tatyova landfall deck and was running 40 or so lands due to high value of having regular lands and high amount of ramp. I was running almost no mana rocks becuase of this though (Sol ring, arcane signet and thought vessel). It was suggested I cut down to about 30 lands and include about 5-6 mana rocks and a ton of X spells to make use of the big mana I had. The suggestions turned it away from landfall to just big mana big spells which was not what the deck was about
I've been trying to make a good Jhoira of the Ghitu since I can remember. I always get told what to include but, whenever I mention the reason behind the cards that are already in the deck they go like ... 🤔 "In that case just use Extra turn cards". And to me I find using Extra turn cards JUST to move the turn clock on the suspens feels bad😅. Like those cards purpose should be to overwhelm my opponents once I already have the Giant Monsters out, not to draw again and move the clock by one. Like, yeah, it helps. But what I found I actually need is cards that help me do something WHILE I'm waiting. And I've included stuff like Feldon and Braids who help me shape the game in an engaging way and they help me maintain the focuse off the Suspension mechanic. Card Draw is also vital because Jhoira makes you work 😂
I like that you called out changing the commander. I have a mistform ultimus deck that ive had forever, Wotc printed Orvar which is strictly better costing the same having the same p/t being a changelling and it has the extra ability to make copies of cards when i target, i could easily just swap it to occasionally get triggers but to actually use Orvar fully i would need to rebuild a lot of the deck, ironically i did rebuild a lot of it with Kaldheim for Maskwood Nexus, but I've had misty forever, it will feel wrong to swap him out even if he is strictly worse
Have you made an episode about anecdotal adds/cuts?
I like when people give me unsolicited advice and can respond with "I've tried that card/idea, but it does/doesn't work for me because..."
When I was stating my edh adventure, so just over two years ago, I was asked why I played certain cards a lot by one guy in particular. My answers were always the same, "why not?", "I like it", or the new standard, "because I want to". He means well, but we just approach the games in two very different ways, he plays to win, I play to have a good time
Out of all the players in my group, I objectively play the worst decks. Be it too slow, not enough removal, or whatnot. As a result, I often get left alone and allowed to just do my thing, maybe one day I'll try a more serious deck
The best advice that I've learned is that mana is king. If you're deck is having issues, first look at your lands, ramp, mana colors, and your curve, as odds are one of those things is limiting your deck from its full potential.
The worst advice I've heard? One on one removal isn't worth it in commander, as there is always another threat. Instead you should run 6+ boardwipes as your main interaction, since they clear any issue and you can easily prepare for them.
I’ve seen the thumbnail no less than ten times.
Only when I clicked the video did I realize it was “deck” advice.
Deck building advice I get is usually good, technically speaking, but changes the feel of the deck or just doesn't mesh with my play-style. I would rather build a separate deck that helps me adapt to the change more, before changing my main deck. This is especially true when the deck I'm trying to build comes with card pool limitations AND flavor goals.
When making a casual list with shorikai. I tried my best to run as much inefficient spell and when specifically stating on how to make my list more laid back I keep getting cards like Swords to Plowshares, esper Sentinel, force of will, etc...
When asking for feedback, I try to mention if this is for a casual or competitive build but I guess people have their own interpretation.
Worst advice? My budget enchantments deck had a rough time dealing with a hydra deck one night so I was tuning my removal and had a list of cards to add, but was having a hard time finding cuts. I posted the deck list with the list of additions asking specifically for help finding good cards to cut. Only commenter suggested I upgrade my mediocre ramp with Three Visits, "if I could pick it up cheap" which they helpfully followed by posting images of a mixture of some of the cards I was adding and some similar higher budget cards, stating they knew I already had most of them on the list but they were "putting them here for collection purposes" 😵💫
It wasn't for a commander deck, or a magic deck for that matter, but a Yu-Gi-Oh deck. The person in question suggested I take out one of the key cards in the deck because it didn't fit into a different build that was meta at the time. I found it rather offensive and wasn't shy about that either. I didn't get anymore advice on that deck. However, I didn't post another deck list online for about 20 years.
If it is someone I want to become better at the game, I give real feedback. If I don't care, I just smile and pretend to take the bad advice.
For me it was a little bit different and not sure it fits. But I was playing against a guy who played Top like turn 2. Then he proceeded to pay (1) to spin the Top, then tap it to draw the card then passed. then for the next few turns he proceeded to do the same thing: Draw for turn (which is Top), cast top, spin top, tap to draw. Then he started to say "damn I'm one mana short" on the next three turns. So:
I: you know that each turn you are using one extra mana to cast Top? you could leave it in play and spin before your next draw step and save the 1 mana to recast Top? and you would still draw your best card in your next 3?
Him: yeah but right now I'm drawing two cards a turn (Mind you he didn't have a draw multiple card a turn synergy, this was a "value" top)
I: Sure, but one of those cards is always Top, and it cost you one mana to recast each time which slows you down as you just been saying that you are one mana short.
Him: Yeah but you don't get that I'm drawing two cards a turn
it was at that time I realized that I wouldn't be able to help that guy and let him play as he wanted while he continue to complain that he was always one mana short... and had to continue hearing him constantly complain about it...
Most of the advise I get on the decks I share on my channel falls into two broad categories, either someone mentions a new card I didn't know about (which is welcome) or someone offers well-meaning advise on how to further tune a deck that I cannot really push any further (usually welcome as it makes me reconsider and re-verify my choices).
It sounds counter-intuitive but certain commanders I play require me to run less than fully optimised, else the lads I play with won't want me to run that deck. As they are Edgar Markov and Sharuum the Hegemon are right on the edge, and lately I've been weakening / refocusing Sharuum.
My unsolicited critique( 😉) is you called it when you say people just look at decklists from different perspectives, perspectives heavily influenced by where and whom they usually play. For example I've been playing with the same bunch of lads for awhile now, we know each other's styles, most of each other's decks and most importantly what the collective will tolerate in a game.
The worst advice I ever saw was at my lgs. A friend and I were talking and they said the wanted to build a nicol bolas dragon deck as they loved the character and dragons. A third person over heard and interrupted with “you should play the scion of the ur dragon, as it’s the only good dragon commander”. My friend replied “nah I really want to play bolas as the commander”, then this person proceeded to tell my friend their deck would be bad as scion had access to lots of combos. Completely missing the point of why my friend wanted to build a dragon deck
Saying that your mono-green Landfall deck is too slow and should add Blue or Red in it... No thanks, I'm good. I built the deck with it being mono-green in mind, and I rather keep it that way. For context, the commander in this deck is Ashaya, Soul of the Wild, one of the best Land Commanders in both Green and EDH. Yet one of the dudes I was playing with thought it was too slow despite it having mana dorks and rocks, an Emerald Medallion, Caged Sun, Nissa, Who Shakes the World, and Leyline of Abundance. I know Simic and Gruul can be faster, and the guy meant well, however, I prefer the simple joy of using one color for at least one of my decks.
People's champ
Starscream is fantastic and made me very happy to play a mono black commander that’s not aristocrats or graveyard deck. Don’t get me wrong I love the playstyle, but I wanted a deck to feel and play different
when I ask (…for deck advice), I accept ANY answer
I play a Thryx "Big Blue" it's big splashy blue spells, a lot of ramp, and a decent chunk of cost reduction. I was told to swap out Mystic Confluence for Counterspell because it's a "more efficient counterspell, mana wise". I refrained from telling him that mystic confluence usually costs 3 mana and is uncounterable because of my commander. NTY.
As a new player ive definitely seen my fair share of bad and unsolicited advice. There's one guy in particular that was really hardcore and competitive so with me being the complete opposite we bumped heads frequently and he was frequently gatekeeping and basically telling me what HE wants in the deck rather than what I was asking for and wanting. Even when i told him i was strictly casual and that i was really only looking for what i had asked he refused and always had an attitude with me. I ended up having to block him.
I think what helps most with advice is keeping in mind what the person is after maybe giving your own friendly reminder but assuring them it's their choice then offer advice on what they're asking. Ultimately that player will choose to take the advice or not but will be more likely to appreciate the advice given and return for more later as they learn. I've got a friend in particular thats great on only giving advice when asked and if you want him to look through your deck to take something out he will always tell you WHY. Otherwise you're not learning at all.
Another thing i hate along these same lines is the low effort obvious answers usually begining with "JUST". I could be asking how to better afford the mana for cards in a 5 color deck and I'll get "just add lands, bro!" It's unproductive and irratating and borderline insults my intelligence. How about instead you recommend some cards that make all lands tap for any color for example.
Chromatic lantern does that AND it can tap for any mana. It's pretty much great and probably a staple artifact for 5 color decks as i don't know of any better mana fixer since it is also 3 cmc colorless and about $3 USD a card. You could also go with The World Tree as it is a non basic land that as long as you have 6 or more lands then all of your lands you control can tap for any mana, you also don't need to worry about it's double wubrg effect as pretty much you are playing it for the passive.
I would suggest running both as The World Tree would get shut down by something like Blood Moon even though The World Tree costs more around $6 USD the last i checked than Chromatic Lantern which is around again $3 USD
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena it was just a example but that is some good advice actually. Ever since I added a chromatic lantern to my dragon deck it's preforming so much harder better and is consistently playing well.
@@tylerrassi4148 Honestly Chromatic Lantern should be a staple in a lot of 3+ color decks as it is just really great color fixing and it's not too fast. Reason why i point out the not too fast bit is because people for some reason care about that, however it will speed up the game a bit as it does help with bad deck building skills with the mana base
I always say “do you run X?”
If it’s yes, cool. If it’s no, I tell them what it is and leave it at that. It’s fun to talk about different cards that can help in different ways. And my favorite cards to suggest are the crazier ones. Like yeah you won’t put that in the deck but if you did you could do this funny thing.