Nope to all. I bought a Brother S500 new for $48K. Plain jane, 14 tool and 10k spindle, but it will out work all three of those machines no questions asked.
@@AudacityMicro you are correct. I specked a new s700 with cts probing and rotary and it was 120 k I did however purchase a used s700 with a nikken 5ax trunion for 76k a few weeks ago so their are deals
Yamazen sometimes imports base machines at a discount. But the optional features add up, a rotary or chip conveyor are going to be double the Haas equivalent.
To address your security point as an IT guy; It's somewhat of a moot point if you already think you can trust any other government or trust big companies on that point....
So the big concern is ITARs. They already banned all huawei products from any shop that is doing ITARS work, and it wouldn't be a stretch to include more Chinese products. This won't matter for most shops, but it could be a major risk for others.
@@AudacityMicro ah, but in that case you would need to be sure dat some point that not one of the parts that's used for the computer side of things is made in China. If it will come to that point get ready to throw out your iPhone as well. 😁
Watching these videos makes me glad I got my 20x20x20 Cincinnati VMC for $1,900 (plus like $500 for transport/rigging), that I then repaired for under $500
@AudacityMicro it's an old dinosaur but as a new machinist, it beats getting a $50-$100k loan to get a machine and establish electric/air infrastructure.
Glad to see Tormach come out with a new machine. I really wanted a mini mill but because I live in Alaska, I couldn't get the Canadian Haas distributor to give me the time of day.
I have 3 Haas TM 1P mills, one 2006 first gen paid 35,000.00, 20012 43,000.00, 2023 48,.000.00 all plain janes and still running everyday. The 2023 really runs smooth and quiet.
Hey, I just wanted to point out that I have a Syil X7-20 (2020 model) I’ve had it just over 3 years and it’s been perfect from day one. The customer service I’ve received here in the U.K. has been superb. I know of a couple of people who have had new spindles, and they arrive within a week from China!! Also, the US had fantastic service from Wesley and Paul the US importers, before Titan and co came along. I’d very highly recommend a Syil, it’s a great machine for its cost.
Titan quoted me right about 40k for a base X7 with the Sytech controller and probing which would need the phase converter too. The single phase machine is roughly the same specs as the Tormach, but would need the rigging you mentioned too. X7 is right at 4000lbs and the Tormach is 2800lbs. The 1500MX seems about the best "garage single phase" machine available.
They definitely each have their own use cases. I would be willing to bet that the Haas is the highest performance of all of these, but it's also not really in the same class. The Syil is still hands down the best value, but the Tormach is just more accessible and approachable. It just comes down to individual priorities and needs.
@@____________________ok Yep the T5 is extremely similar to the DC1, it's $46k base and in production now. The T7 has more travel and is only a couple grand more.
Not sure if I really get the hype for the 1500mx. It seems to my like it is DOA, is pretty much destroyed by the dc1 and definitely out valued by the syil x7. You are paying $45k for it once optioned with probeing, atc, and flood coolant, while the dc1 comes in at 50k and the syil comes in around 40k. Both the machines seem to me to be an entirely different class than the Tormach. The tormach weighs only 3k lbs, has only a 6hp spindle, and rapids to 1200ipm. The Hass weighs 7k lbs, has a 15 hp spindle, rapids to 1800ipm, has substantially bigger travels, has 5 more tool pockets and has chip to chip times of 2.5s!! The wild part is if you are financing the machine the Hass actually comes out to be $300 a month cheaper on a 36month term due to Hass's financing being much better. The 10k you save over the term of the loan should be enough to offset the price of a rotary phase converter and the additional rigging costs associated with the machine when combined with the additional productivity the machine will provide you over its life. I fail to understand how you consider the current price of the 1500mx to be reasonable considering the other options on the market.
In terms of specs, yeah, the other machines are better. I'm not going to argue that. But the Haas doesn't fit through my door, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who will have that issue. It'll also cost more to run and maintain. The Syil is definitely the best value of all of these machines, but one trade war, and suddenly you can't get any spare parts. There's a fair amount of risk to that. Plus support is questionable at best. The Tormach is simply the easiest option. US support, single phase, it fits through even small garage doors. It may not be for everyone, but for some people it will be the only good option.
I recently bought a used PCNC 1100 Series 3. My first CNC. I will use it for myself and my company. The machine wasn't used for production so pretty lightly used. I picked it up for 13,500 with a ton of other tooling etc... lots of material to practice on etc. I really like it so far. I feel I got a great starter CNC for as cheap as possible also it was 7 miles from my shop. So easy move. I figure if I need anything in the future it will probably be the 1500MX. I wasn't really in the market to by the CNC but it kind of just happened. I'll learn on this one and expand. Glad the 1500MX seems to be a good way to go. It will probably be my next.
We went with Tomach for footprint mainly and we liked putting it together, because then we knew how to work on it if it was required. The alternatives were pretty close on most other specifications.
The path pilot control is easily the fastest way to get into the game. Every time I use it I say a little thank you to the linux cnc developers.... I'm going to have to seriously look into the 1500 as we continue to grow.
I'm curious about their 'new' larger 4th axis that was shown in the Tormach promotional video about the 1500MX, and hoping it is not just a scaled up MicroArc. I'm sure the Micro Arc is a 'nice' unit, but the cost vs. utility (small size, no through hole) is absolutely absurd. In my opinion, Tormach needs to take a closer look at what the majority of other manufacturers produce (hint, features with a TON of uses: 5C or better yet, 16C collet capability, with through hole to match and spindle threads to mount a chuck or faceplate, etc.).
The microarc4 has a through hole and practically no rotary tables have a threaded nose (unless it's a dedicated 5C indexer), flat or T-slotted faceplates are industry standard. The microarc has a bolt pattern for whatever fixture you want to bolt to it.
Software can make or break a machine depending on your experience. Tormach seems to be a great piece of software to start learning on. But I do love the X7 for performance.
The 1500MX seems great, I can't afford it nor do I have a way to get it into and out of my basement shop sadly lol. I was on a call with Tormach about the 440 which fits in my space but at the end of the day, getting ATC and the fixings I want its a $12k machine with a tiny work area. Honestly I may end up building a DIY milling machine that is a lot lighter and less rigid, but totally suitable for milling aluminum, and with an estimated price range only $5-6k to have an ATC capable spindle. I need something small and light enough to move when my lease ends but rigid enough to cut metal and I wanted a 12x12x12 work volume, and that machine doesn't exist right now off the shelf. If I ever can afford a house with a garage or shed, and my business grown rapidly enough to justify it, I'd love to own a 1500MX.
I think there's another gap in the market for machines that are both capable, but small enough to get in and out of tight spots. I have a friend who is in the same boat. The 440 is out of date, and overpriced for what it is. There's obsidian machine, they have some neat machines. The MR1 also looks pretty cool.
@@AudacityMicro some machinist forums I saw had horror stories about the obsidian machines, the MR-1 would be pretty good for me but the Z travel is pretty limiting and it would be next to impossible to remove from my basement shop once the poured concrete base was finished and weighed 700lbs+
I have seen those too. But it seems like the company has grown up a lot. Personally I don't know much about them, and can't really have an educated opinion
There's lot's of business cases but I find it hard to believe there's any hobbyists dropping 30-50 grand on a CNC mill. I suppose it's no more than sports car but still.
I don't think there are too many hobbyists who buy the 1100MX, or a larger machine with the intent of keeping it a hobby. I think the 770 is about the most you would ever need for hobby work. But there's more than enough people who started something as a hobby, and then found themselves wanting to make it a job.
I think you underestimate what people are willing to spend on hobbies. I know of at least a couple of people who build their own CNC mills and spend at least 20k on components... I'd be willing to spend 30k on a machine if it would be small enough to fit my garage but big enough to do what I would want to use it for.
Yeah, the problem is machine size and work envelope. Obviously the two are inverse to each other. The same problem with plasma cutters, laser cutters, etc.
Absolutely! I didn't make it clear enough in the video, but I still think Syil is the best value. Best bang for the buck. It's just a little less user friendly.
Call me crazy, but I think the VF2SS is really the jumping off point if you are wanting to make money (probably why they are the most popular unit out there)...the SVM4100 by DN Solutions looks like a good unit as well...
That's fair! But that's a different class of machine. I know we never defined it, but we're really talking about small beginner machines, that can fit in just about anyone's workshop. A VF2 needs 3 phase, doesn't fit in as many places, needs a bigger compressor, etc. The machines were talking about here are quite a bit more compact, and more flexible. Plus by the time you option it out, a good VF2SS package is at least $70K, versus like 45 for a well outfitted Syil.
Syil with Heidenhain? I think only Siemens, no? HH would for sure would be possible but I have not seen it on their website yet. That would be killer and would really make me consider getting a X7
For $45K, I would get Haas Super Mini or Used VF2 older. I’d notch my garage door for this than getting another Tormach. It’s just not the same. BUT it really depends on what you are doing with it. For doing ones and twos, Tormach is perfect. You want to even tempted for business and production, go for Haas. Syil is interesting though. I need to see it in person. I’m so ready to move up from my S31100.
Good video. I’ve been in the business since 1976 and can tell you about so much in this industry. Key points are the machine’s availability’s at the time periods. When I purchased my CNC machines they were all from Japan. Everyone cringed and called them junk. Well truth be told today they are still some of the best machines out there. I have statistical proof of just how good they have been. Case in point my first lathe was a Miyano ENC 3BC. That thing made precision parts for nearly 30 years before we replaced it with a Miyano LS series. Now at that time there were simply were no US manufactures of machines in the small to mid range size. So you had little choice. Biggest problem was which one was best for your application. Then along came Hurco and Fadal in the milling area. Competition and market place drove the industry to companies such as Haas. I feel Haas machines are a good value over all. However they rape you on things they shouldn’t. It’s like putting a five dollar bill in your left pocket while taking a ten out of your right. Service in our area leaves much to be desired. And as you pointed out there is a lot going on with China. At the rate this country is headed China will own us. I’m glad I’m close to the end of my life cycle on this planet. That’s a pretty sad situation. Last agreement is NEVER, EVER, EVER purchase anything the first year it comes out. Do you honestly believe you did anything right the first time out? Ah that would be a big fat NO. Good video young man. Nice to see young ppl who are on the ball and interested in machining. 👍🏼👍🏼
Im biased, but my choice would be a hurco vm10. I hear alot of people in forums complain about service guys, but in the 6 years i ran a hurco most of the problems could be fixed by the operator. Also the conversational is just so nice to use for small runs and quick jigs
I like hurco, they are local to me here in Indiana, and a hurco was the first ever VMC I hit cycle start on. Buuuut they don't really play in the same class. They are generally larger and more expensive than the machines we are talking about here. For example, I don't think a single hurco fits through my shop door, the Syil and the new Tormach do.
@@AudacityMicro The Hurco VM ONE is the smallest Hurco and its just a few inches bigger than the SyilX7. But i dont know the priceing on that. Especially if you spec out the Software Options ( there is alot ) .
I bought my hurco vm10 in 2020 for £45k in a package with some software options. I used the conversational for 18 months or so, but not really since. Everything is from fusion now, even quick things. Very impressed with the machine and nothing has gone wrong apart from a faulty door switch that was replaced 6 months in. The vm5 is their smallest i believe. The vm1 is between the vm10 and vm5 i think. Theres a uk company calle xyz that do a machine called an op2 mill that is very small
Hass makes machines in China? I did not know that. Is it only this new DC-1 or other models too? We only have one Hass in the shop I work at the UMC750SS but I do like Hass especially the easy to use control, great for learning.
On the subject of upgrading, where do companies offload their used machines when they upgrade? I've been looking at a Haas for a while now, but as I pool capital, I'm wondering if I can get more capability for roughly the same price if I go with an older but serviceable unit versus a brand new one.
Honestly, Facebook marketplace, eBay, and through machine resellers is still the easiest way to find them. The cheapest way is to just be friends with local shops. Make sure they know you are looking for something. They will either have something they want to get rid of, or know someone who is.
There are industrial resellers like HGR inc, many sites. But as audacity says if you search around locally you might be better off getting it right from the source.
Can you link me to the place where you found the information that Haas is made in China? - I can't find anything about it. Yes they have a department down there, but officially they ensure that they make all components and assemblies of machines in USA.
Is that the VM one? Those aren't quite in the same class as the ones I'm talking about here, though are pretty sweet. With options they quickly get above 50K. DMG mori also has a similar machine that is really interesting. I'm not quite sure how to define the class or machines we're talking about, but the hurco feels a little too industrial for it. I would love one of those hurcos however. Hurco is local to me, so I've always had a soft spot for them.
Have you seen any of the Haas VF series clones from China? When I was visiting a factory my company setup there, I saw hundreds of them, they are virtually identical machines (software included) without any of the haas logos. On one side of the factory was what we setup with genuine machines, and then it’s like they just copied and pasted that 10 times with cloned machines. I had never seen anything like this and from what I could tell tinkering with them, it would’ve been hard to tell other than the different logos and really tearing one apart. Quality looked decent on them too and the parts they were producing were in tolerance. I’ve heard stories in my industry of Chinese factories cloning manufacturing lines but I never expected them to clone machines, and not to such a high quality standard!
Wrong type of machine for what we are comparing here. It's like recommending a used tractor on a video about the new Honda Civic. The people buying these machines are looking for something small that can easily fit in a garage so they can make pocket knives, they don't need or want the extra work envelope, power, and rigidity that comes with a large machine like that
Can you start a business with a 1500? I'm a engineer with 15 years of product development and manufacturing experience. I have always wanted to start my own manufacturing and Automation business. I have done some engineering work on the side of my full time job. But it hasn't been consistent.
I started a business on a Tormach 1100mx, which is a less capable machine, so it should also be possible on a 1500mx. It may or may not be the perfect machine depending on what your aim is, but it's certainly a viable option.
I started with a product, yes. Though I run a podcast, and my co-host started his jobshop on a 1100mx. The 1500 is seriously a giant leap up from the 1100, so I have no doubt it would be perfectly fine for starting a business. Tormach used to be the only option short of a used machine for someone just starting off, there's a few more options now, but I would still recommend it to someone who isn't already an experienced machinist.
lol jesus christ these prices are skyrocketing. Got my VF2 for 37000 USD with HSM brand new back in 2018. Buying chinese should be an absolute NOGO for everything.
I don't have anything against hurcos, but they are just a different class of machines. It would kinda be like talking about a Honda Civic in a video about motor cycles. Nothing wrong with the Civic, but it's not a direct comparison.
Supply chain not issues between US and China. American products so popular in China as myself drive Tesla. use iPhone. drink Starbucks…..also Tormach and HAAS both have Chinese supplied products…
So I absolutely agree, at the moment there aren't any problems with the supply chain. And I have zero issues buying an import machine. There are however some inherent risks to it, 1) political situations do change. If Trump gets re-elected next year, and decides to do something stupid, then we may start to see things like excessive tariffs. 2) many shops need to be ITARs certified. They completely banned the use of huawei products from any shop that is ITAR, it isn't a stretch for them to expand that to "all Chinese electronics". I understand better than most, that the US depends on trade with China, and even the most "American" machines have a large percentage of import components. And honestly that is a good thing, countries that trade with each other don't go to war. I know this wasn't clear in the video, but I do think the Syil machine is the best value of all of the machines I mentioned. You get picked on because you are the reigning champ. I think there's some fear and uncertainty that exists for many American customers around your machines, which is keeping you from selling more of them. If you had a really good RUclips channel, with good tutorials and maintenance/repair walkthroughs, you would be able to mitigate a lot of that. You also need to have a website where you sell spare parts, with the prices listed, and the ability to buy online. If you can put those things together, you will be the unquestioned champ. Shoot me an email if you want help with your RUclips channel. We can work something out. AJ@audacitymicro.com
100% on syil. If they had better customer service other than shitty Titan of CNC I would give them a chance. The syil is built way better than the other two. Period. We own 16 cnc machines here and the syil is built just like the real machines. The haas mini mill is 1/2 plate welded together frame.
So I don’t understand your HAAS statement about its Chinese manufacture. Are you saying all their machines are at least made there? Or is it just this one? What I don’t like is the rumors that they still sell to Russia after the embargo.
I am referring exclusively to the DC-1. To my knowledge all of their other machines are made and assembled in the US, with the possible exception of some jellybean parts.
The 1500mx has a lot of nice options and it’s way better than the smaller models, but the pricing is silly. Literally who is going to spend in the neighborhood of $50k (with options) for a machine with 4 hp and a non-industrial PC based control? For the same price you can get an X7 with almost 3x the power, a used Speedio or spend a little more and get a haas super mini. I feel like they’re trying to appeal to a market that doesn’t really exist, at least not at the prices they’re asking for. Installing a phase converter is really not that difficult.
You may not see the market, but it exists. I would put money on there being more 1500mxs in a year, than Syils and DC-1s combined. It's really just down to how fast Tormach can crank them out.
I got a syil x7 quoted with chip conveyer and tool probe. It came out to 50k including the 3k for shipping and the converter. I would still have to rent a forklift to get it off the truck and run power.. to me the tormach would be a better fit for me as a hobbyist making my own prototypes. I can move this machine easily with a pallet jack. Plus I am close to the tormach headquarters.
@@richgebhardt7960 You can pay $300-$500 more for delivery of a Tormach from a truck with a liftgate (unless you have a loading dock), or have it delivered with a 'regular' truck and rent the forklift. Either way, you'll likely be spending some money just to 'get it off the truck.' The forklift is also useful for lifting the machine onto the stand (at least on the 1100 models...not sure if that needs to be done with the 1500).
Tormachs are made in China as well, so any security concerns about China apply to both. And I do believe, since SYIL openly calls itself a Tormach competitor, SYIL is a result of a Tormach factory (direct supplier OR otherwise) building its own machines, using TITAN to do the "Authenticity Branding". Plus, being someone who really would like own a CNC VMC, amazingly everything about these machines is made in China + competition, but prices never come down to a level where you do not have to take out loan to buy these machines. What is this competition for then? Would love for someone to tell me why?
So you have some interesting points here. So firstly, yes I don't really think there is a security difference between the two machines. The Syil factories are completely separate from the Tormach ones. up until the 1500MX they were based on completely different kinematic structures, with different types of castings. The cost question is an interesting one, and the answer is, the cost of the machine doesn't really matter, it's the ability of the machine to make profit. If I can get a loan on the machine for $500 a month, and the machine can make me significantly more than $500 per month, then it is a good investment. The price of the machine is really determined by the value that a user can get out of the machines. Even if you CAN afford to buy a machine cash, its' generally not worth it. Why blow all of your cash on a machine that you could get a loan on? that cash could be invested in other things that can help the business grow. These economics don't apply to hobbyists, and I get that. But for a hobbyist it's all just scales of luxury anyway. cash strapped hobbyist could convert a manual machine for a fraction of the cost, and get more hours of entertainment out of it.
@@AudacityMicro appreciate the quick response. Okay so. 1. Thanks for letting me know the specifics. I stated that both the machines comes from the same factories or supplier based on my interactions with firm founder/owner. Plus, when someone calls themselves direct competitor, means they've found a way to replicate exactly what their competitors are selling and then undercut them in pricing. 2. I get your point about the value of machine being what it's output is. But by that logic a desktop 3d printer should be in 1000s and not 100s of dollars. You must have seen the output people are getting from their desktop Prusas and Enders, with the new Bambu X1S being a game changer. Profitable businesses with revenues in 10s of 1000s of dollars are being created. And many earn more than individual machine shops, or I should say profit margin way higher than machine shops. So, I ask, which one should change their prices, the CNC Mills or desktop printers? I know the parts to build a cnc milling are different than a 3d printer, but they aren't that expensive to make a bambu worth $1000 and simple VMC in 30,000s. Plus, these are all made in china. We can get cars for less than these machines. Definitely seems like the industry really does not want to let prices come down.
3D printers don't follow the same rules, because they are largely focused on hobby users, and it's much more difficult to make money on a 3D printer. Sure people can make money on them, but those businesses are more about the designs, and less about the printer. And I'm not sure you really understand the scale difference between a full sized VMC and a 3D printer. One ballscrew for a VMC probably has more raw materials in it than an entire 3D printer, not even taking precision manufacturing into account. Now there are small desktop mills (or routers really, but that's just a nomenclature thing, they are the same type of machine). There's the shapoko machines, the nomad, the Bantam machines, the Sherline mill, the Carvera, and tons of cheap import machines. A lot of those have basically gotten just about as cheap as they possibly can. If you want to get started, checkout the Sherline stuff. Those are surprisingly capable for their size. Find a used machine and convert it, or buy their "CNC ready" machine, you can easily get a small mill running for less than $500.
Syil is like 1 ton heavier than the Tormach. So the Tormach is not even in the same universe (than all other compared machines). I hate to say it but weight matters - alot.
Sure, assuming all the machines are equally well designed, the heavier one will cut better. But that doesn't mean we can't compare the machines. The 1500mx will take sales from Syil, and the X5 and X7 will take sales from tormach. They are in similar price ranges, and will be used by similar customers. For someone who is making aluminum keychains or something the weight won't matter. So it's fair to compare them.
So, I am operating off of rumors and other second hand information, but it's pretty well documented at this point, and Haas hasn't denied it. But it's literally a white labeled machine. It looks like the whole thing is made in China, and shipped to the US. There might be some minor assembly in the US, but Haas is getting a mostly complete machine from overseas.
So you're mainly referring to the DC1 machine? I've seen pretty recent videos of Haas machines being built in their Oxnard plant. My VF2 has documents stating it was made in Oxnard.
Oh I see. Wow thats not good. I hope they become more transparent about that. They're pretty clear about their tooling line not being made here. Hope this isn't the startof a new trend there when it comes to their machine builds. Keep up the good work 👍🏽. Your videos are cool!
Uuuuh, I'm going to be honest. The scope of "industry news" I can cover knowledgeably is rather limited. While I like these videos, I'm really familiar with Tormach and Syil, and have some inside information on those companies, but that's about it. Unless those companies do more interesting things more often, then there aren't going to be too many more news videos.
I mean, your content is just what I need right now. I was about to buy the Syil because, well... Mr. Titan fan, and your Haas video stopped me on my tracks. I was jumping back and forth on those machines and then you surpriseme again with the Tormach. Now I feel I have more leverage than ever as a buyer. I wouldn't know if is not for you.
im glad it was helpful! The syil is still the best bang for the buck, the Haas is the highest performance, and the tormach is the most approachable, it basically just comes down to your priorities!
I would prefer Tormach since they use LinuxCNC under the hood... in case Tormach is running into issues the machine can always be serviced somehow. Syil & Haas ... no way... However I'm on my crusade with a refurbished Mitsubishi which I'm working on converting to LinuxCNC.
Hmm what are your security issues? There is nothing in there talking home if they use siemens control or do you think they cheat a pice of software in?
Honestly, I don't think there are security issues. I just know it's a concern that some Americans have 🤷♂️. I can see a world where tensions heighten with China, and any import machine gets banned from ITARs. But that's really the only legitimate risk.
@@AudacityMicro Quite frankly you're fcuked when it comes to that. Almost everything contains something made in China. Even the 828 is partially made there.
As cool and well priced as Syil is..I've seen WAY too many issues regarding chatter, and overall rigidity. The frame is great, but the spindle seems to have a problem with anything other than extremely small woc cuts from what people are saying online. Can even hear it scream in the titans video where they made that toolseter piece.
To me, if my 2019 SMM2 from Haas can do a MUCH more heavy cut without screaming like a baby, my dreams to purchase a Syil to sit next to it will never really become a reality. It makes no sense.
The DM and DT are quite a bit more expensive (when new), require 3 phase, and don't fit in most garages. I would take a used DM/DT over any of these machines any day, but they aren't really in the same category. For example, I can fit a Syil or the new Tormach in my shop no problem, but the DM doesn't fit through my door.
@@AudacityMicro You make a fair point. However, a Sawzall will remedy the garage door situation. That and add a 3 phase converter from phase technologies and you’re good to go!
@@AudacityMicro To have the customer support of HAAS, the HAAS control, overall specs, and certain bells and whistles, honestly looks better than the Tormach and Syil. Wish there were more reviews, but it is still relatively new.
I don't understand you explained that parts are all made in Europe and Japan why would you have problem finding replacing parts yet you think a chinese made Haas is fine because it has name behind it? 😅
It's not the name, it's the supply chain. Haas has the best service and support for machines in the US. They have the best logistics to handle parts too. If something catastrophic happens (let's say an embargo) Haas has the resources to figure something out. Plus they will almost certainly be warehousing replacement parts.
Y for me i hate how price range of 5 to 15k. Does not have any good options that would still work with 2" face mill with at least low carbon steel. And i live in Finland where everything gets slapped with heavy tax when imported outside EU. And EU made machines are hell expensive. Because this uses machines are really used to the core like from early 90.
@@ewildgoose if i could get Continuous torque of 2.2kw on less than 600rpm. 0.07inch is possible on vc 370f/min. I use metric unit so i like to go 666 rpm feed 666mm/min😈. High speed spindles are bad with bigger diameter tools because they lose torque on low rpms. Most spindles only tell torque starting from 1500rpm.
Hey AJ, I am a little confused. Tormachs are produced in China are they not? I believe some of are its components are made in the US, but the machine are made in China.
It's a mix, which to my understanding, has changed back and forth over time. I believe the dovetail machines are mostly built in China, with some assembly happening in the US. But Tormach recently bought a company in Mexico, to my understanding this is their first machine coming out of that plant. They say the casting is American, but I'm sure there are still plenty of Chinese parts in it.
I remember when the Tormach 1100 machines first came out (2006 or so, if I remember correctly) I did a lot of searching around and found the exact same machine (same castings, colors, stand, etc.) available in China, with the only difference being that those machines had an option of a Siemens Sinumerik control, or what appeared to be a Chinese knockoff of Fanuc. My guess would be that those machines (at least the 1100 size models) have/had been produced in China before Tormach even existed.
@@Dyna78 That is correct. The dovetail series tormachs have always been whitelabled. I think tormach tweaked the design slowly over time, and added things like their own controller, but the bones have always been that same OEM import machine. The 1500mx is actually different, and their own design.
Uh, potential supply chain issues with China don't go away by buying US made. They all use electronic components out of China, it's literally impossible to build advanced circuit boards without (if you don't have a military budget).
True! Very valid point! Electronics will certainly be an issue. Anything machined/fabricated we can do over here, maybe not at a competitive price, but we have the infrastructure. But yeah, at the moment the US just doesn't have the ability to make electrical components.
That's kinda like going to someone who is shopping for a nice bicycle and telling them about you can get a motorcycle for just a bit more. Technically accomplishes the same thing, but not the same product. You may not be looking for one of these machines, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own time and place. Yes, I would take a speedio over any of these machines any day. I'm looking at an M200 for my next machine. But just to get that machine in my door is going to cost me $10K (rigging, plus I need to modify my shop for it to fit). Plus I'll need a phase converter, which is another few K. Plus I'll have to learn the controller, which will take me a few days. That 1500 could land on my floor today, and be up and running tomorrow without any additional costs and learning time. Suddenly the 1500 is like 1/4rd the cost of a low end speedio. I've out grown any of the machines I talked about here, so I'm not going to be buying those. I need more accuracy and 5 axis. But if I was just starting out, it would be hard to argue against a Syil or 1500.
A machines weight is the way to compare the only caveat being these damn zippy ways. The only thing that could be worse would be round ways. Would never own a machine tool that either had these rails or what I call zippy ways or round ways. Only caveat would be EDM machines. They will have zippy ways and that is fine.
Uhhhh modern rails are actually awesome. I'm sure you can get more rigidity out of box ways, and hydrostatic ways are super cool, but there's a reason everyone uses rails now. They are cheaper, more accurate, faster, smoother, and more rigid than older style machines.
It's not legitimacy. China does not make precision bearings anywhere close to Korean and Japanese levels of precision. Also their metallurgy isn't that good. if you are going to build precision machining tools you only have a short list of suppliers for these parts to begin with.
I'll second that opinion...spindle bearings in my 1100, with light/normal use and no crashes, trashed themselves in less than 50 hours. Luckily they are a common size that could be replaced with a higher quality/more reputable brand.
Maybe 🤷♂️. But I can't fit a speedio through my door. Plus gently used ones are still way more expensive than these, and they are way less beginner friendly. Most people also don't have three phase, or the ability to move a machine like that. Suddenly you are adding rigging and a phase converter, and your talking about $80K minimum for a lightly used speedio.
Syil is cheap epoxy concrete garbage. I'd rather take old retrofitted iron instead of that trash any day. Touch it bad once, during rigging or whatever and that junk breaks right apart. Or cheap out on foundation, leave it unleveled for some time and it crack, if you're unlucky.
Nope to all. I bought a Brother S500 new for $48K. Plain jane, 14 tool and 10k spindle, but it will out work all three of those machines no questions asked.
How long ago was that? I didn't know those came that cheap. I was under the impression they started around $75K
@@AudacityMicro you are correct. I specked a new s700 with cts probing and rotary and it was 120 k I did however purchase a used s700 with a nikken 5ax trunion for 76k a few weeks ago so their are deals
Yamazen sometimes imports base machines at a discount. But the optional features add up, a rotary or chip conveyor are going to be double the Haas equivalent.
As well, I got a vanilla spec S500 and spindle motor swapped to 16k at yama for next to nothing. Added renishaw probe from ebay
@@Foomanlol not sure if your talking to me but it's a 2016
To address your security point as an IT guy;
It's somewhat of a moot point if you already think you can trust any other government or trust big companies on that point....
So the big concern is ITARs. They already banned all huawei products from any shop that is doing ITARS work, and it wouldn't be a stretch to include more Chinese products. This won't matter for most shops, but it could be a major risk for others.
@@AudacityMicro ah, but in that case you would need to be sure dat some point that not one of the parts that's used for the computer side of things is made in China.
If it will come to that point get ready to throw out your iPhone as well. 😁
Watching these videos makes me glad I got my 20x20x20 Cincinnati VMC for $1,900 (plus like $500 for transport/rigging), that I then repaired for under $500
Sounds like a great deal!
@AudacityMicro it's an old dinosaur but as a new machinist, it beats getting a $50-$100k loan to get a machine and establish electric/air infrastructure.
Nice,I hope your making chips now.I got a mori seki sl-4 I'm retrofitting.
Which model did you get? Something like an Arrow 500?
@@Dyna78 yeah a 96 arrow 500
Glad to see Tormach come out with a new machine. I really wanted a mini mill but because I live in Alaska, I couldn't get the Canadian Haas distributor to give me the time of day.
I have 3 Haas TM 1P mills, one 2006 first gen paid 35,000.00, 20012 43,000.00, 2023 48,.000.00 all plain janes and still running everyday. The 2023 really runs smooth and quiet.
I have a 2022 tm1p, only thing I can complain about is the 10 tool I wish I would have gone with 20.
What kind of parts are you cranking out. My Fryer VB-50 milling machine has become my most expensive dust collector.Its a kick ass machine.
Hey, I just wanted to point out that I have a Syil X7-20 (2020 model) I’ve had it just over 3 years and it’s been perfect from day one. The customer service I’ve received here in the U.K. has been superb. I know of a couple of people who have had new spindles, and they arrive within a week from China!!
Also, the US had fantastic service from Wesley and Paul the US importers, before Titan and co came along.
I’d very highly recommend a Syil, it’s a great machine for its cost.
Titan quoted me right about 40k for a base X7 with the Sytech controller and probing which would need the phase converter too. The single phase machine is roughly the same specs as the Tormach, but would need the rigging you mentioned too. X7 is right at 4000lbs and the Tormach is 2800lbs. The 1500MX seems about the best "garage single phase" machine available.
They definitely each have their own use cases. I would be willing to bet that the Haas is the highest performance of all of these, but it's also not really in the same class. The Syil is still hands down the best value, but the Tormach is just more accessible and approachable. It just comes down to individual priorities and needs.
@@____________________ok Yep the T5 is extremely similar to the DC1, it's $46k base and in production now. The T7 has more travel and is only a couple grand more.
Nice analysis, great to see competition in this area
I'm thrilled to see Tormach get in on the game. I bet they sell a lot of those things
Dude I swear you do such a good job of explaining everything and how you feel about it
It's much easier when I can edit out all the dumb things I say 🤣. Put me in front of a live crowd, and it will not go as well.
Not sure if I really get the hype for the 1500mx. It seems to my like it is DOA, is pretty much destroyed by the dc1 and definitely out valued by the syil x7.
You are paying $45k for it once optioned with probeing, atc, and flood coolant, while the dc1 comes in at 50k and the syil comes in around 40k. Both the machines seem to me to be an entirely different class than the Tormach. The tormach weighs only 3k lbs, has only a 6hp spindle, and rapids to 1200ipm. The Hass weighs 7k lbs, has a 15 hp spindle, rapids to 1800ipm, has substantially bigger travels, has 5 more tool pockets and has chip to chip times of 2.5s!!
The wild part is if you are financing the machine the Hass actually comes out to be $300 a month cheaper on a 36month term due to Hass's financing being much better. The 10k you save over the term of the loan should be enough to offset the price of a rotary phase converter and the additional rigging costs associated with the machine when combined with the additional productivity the machine will provide you over its life. I fail to understand how you consider the current price of the 1500mx to be reasonable considering the other options on the market.
In terms of specs, yeah, the other machines are better. I'm not going to argue that. But the Haas doesn't fit through my door, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who will have that issue. It'll also cost more to run and maintain.
The Syil is definitely the best value of all of these machines, but one trade war, and suddenly you can't get any spare parts. There's a fair amount of risk to that. Plus support is questionable at best.
The Tormach is simply the easiest option. US support, single phase, it fits through even small garage doors. It may not be for everyone, but for some people it will be the only good option.
I recently bought a used PCNC 1100 Series 3. My first CNC. I will use it for myself and my company. The machine wasn't used for production so pretty lightly used. I picked it up for 13,500 with a ton of other tooling etc... lots of material to practice on etc. I really like it so far. I feel I got a great starter CNC for as cheap as possible also it was 7 miles from my shop. So easy move. I figure if I need anything in the future it will probably be the 1500MX. I wasn't really in the market to by the CNC but it kind of just happened. I'll learn on this one and expand. Glad the 1500MX seems to be a good way to go. It will probably be my next.
Mexican labor cost is actually considerably cheaper than Chinese not to mention shipping and tariffs so Tormach has an edge here
The Syil is appealing but it is hard to beat a used Brother, including the pre-Speedios.
True! That's definitely another option!
We went with Tomach for footprint mainly and we liked putting it together, because then we knew how to work on it if it was required. The alternatives were pretty close on most other specifications.
That absolutely makes sense, did you get a 1500?
Good explanation for someone not in the know.
Thanks! I hope it was helpful!
@@AudacityMicrohow I can talk with you by phone? Or messages..
@@AudacityMicro hey, they want to talk to you, lets see what they are thinking about 😮 maybe a co-op ?? , would be really cool
Send me an email, and we can go from there. AJ@audacitymicro.com
I like the way you described Haas is more Chinese than Chinese Syil hahahaha. Made me drop a big laugh. 😂
Haas is cast iron, at least, Syil is cheap epoxy concrete, where you have to pay big money to get it disposed of, once it cracks right apart.
The path pilot control is easily the fastest way to get into the game. Every time I use it I say a little thank you to the linux cnc developers.... I'm going to have to seriously look into the 1500 as we continue to grow.
Definitely, I can't imagine getting an old used fanuc machine, and trying to learn that controller, while also learning machining
@@AudacityMicro as someone who works in a small shop with mostly fanuc machines built back in the late 80s and early 90s, it is not fun...
Good video AJ. Thanks for the heads up on the new Tormach machine. I might just have to look into it more.
I'm glad you enjoyed!
I'm curious about their 'new' larger 4th axis that was shown in the Tormach promotional video about the 1500MX, and hoping it is not just a scaled up MicroArc. I'm sure the Micro Arc is a 'nice' unit, but the cost vs. utility (small size, no through hole) is absolutely absurd. In my opinion, Tormach needs to take a closer look at what the majority of other manufacturers produce (hint, features with a TON of uses: 5C or better yet, 16C collet capability, with through hole to match and spindle threads to mount a chuck or faceplate, etc.).
The microarc4 has a through hole and practically no rotary tables have a threaded nose (unless it's a dedicated 5C indexer), flat or T-slotted faceplates are industry standard. The microarc has a bolt pattern for whatever fixture you want to bolt to it.
Software can make or break a machine depending on your experience. Tormach seems to be a great piece of software to start learning on. But I do love the X7 for performance.
"Here in Minnesota" 😭😭😭
-Norman
Oh crap, you guys are Wisconsin aren't you
@@AudacityMicro Yep, proudly in the land of cheese curds and waterparks!
It's all just Midwest with shades of Canada to me!
@@AudacityMicro Them's fightin' words!
🤣
The 1500MX seems great, I can't afford it nor do I have a way to get it into and out of my basement shop sadly lol. I was on a call with Tormach about the 440 which fits in my space but at the end of the day, getting ATC and the fixings I want its a $12k machine with a tiny work area. Honestly I may end up building a DIY milling machine that is a lot lighter and less rigid, but totally suitable for milling aluminum, and with an estimated price range only $5-6k to have an ATC capable spindle.
I need something small and light enough to move when my lease ends but rigid enough to cut metal and I wanted a 12x12x12 work volume, and that machine doesn't exist right now off the shelf. If I ever can afford a house with a garage or shed, and my business grown rapidly enough to justify it, I'd love to own a 1500MX.
I think there's another gap in the market for machines that are both capable, but small enough to get in and out of tight spots. I have a friend who is in the same boat. The 440 is out of date, and overpriced for what it is. There's obsidian machine, they have some neat machines. The MR1 also looks pretty cool.
@@AudacityMicro some machinist forums I saw had horror stories about the obsidian machines, the MR-1 would be pretty good for me but the Z travel is pretty limiting and it would be next to impossible to remove from my basement shop once the poured concrete base was finished and weighed 700lbs+
I have seen those too. But it seems like the company has grown up a lot. Personally I don't know much about them, and can't really have an educated opinion
@@____________________ok that machine is 2400 pounds, it would be impossible to put in my basement or remove it when my lease ends
There's lot's of business cases but I find it hard to believe there's any hobbyists dropping 30-50 grand on a CNC mill. I suppose it's no more than sports car but still.
I don't think there are too many hobbyists who buy the 1100MX, or a larger machine with the intent of keeping it a hobby. I think the 770 is about the most you would ever need for hobby work. But there's more than enough people who started something as a hobby, and then found themselves wanting to make it a job.
I think you underestimate what people are willing to spend on hobbies.
I know of at least a couple of people who build their own CNC mills and spend at least 20k on components...
I'd be willing to spend 30k on a machine if it would be small enough to fit my garage but big enough to do what I would want to use it for.
Yeah, the problem is machine size and work envelope. Obviously the two are inverse to each other. The same problem with plasma cutters, laser cutters, etc.
I did. I did not even know what a G54 was when I placed my order for my Syil X7 three years ago.
I've been having a lot of fun with my Syil X7. Interface is not as polished as Haas or tormach, but still not a deal breaker.
Absolutely! I didn't make it clear enough in the video, but I still think Syil is the best value. Best bang for the buck. It's just a little less user friendly.
Really like this guy, I am watching with my headphones on but turned off btw
Call me crazy, but I think the VF2SS is really the jumping off point if you are wanting to make money (probably why they are the most popular unit out there)...the SVM4100 by DN Solutions looks like a good unit as well...
That's fair! But that's a different class of machine. I know we never defined it, but we're really talking about small beginner machines, that can fit in just about anyone's workshop. A VF2 needs 3 phase, doesn't fit in as many places, needs a bigger compressor, etc. The machines were talking about here are quite a bit more compact, and more flexible. Plus by the time you option it out, a good VF2SS package is at least $70K, versus like 45 for a well outfitted Syil.
Syil with Heidenhain? I think only Siemens, no?
HH would for sure would be possible but I have not seen it on their website yet. That would be killer and would really make me consider getting a X7
Yup, I definitely misspoke. I'll make a correction in the description, and pin a comment. Thanks!
Nice video of an interesting topic! Thanks
Thanks!
For $45K, I would get Haas Super Mini or Used VF2 older. I’d notch my garage door for this than getting another Tormach. It’s just not the same. BUT it really depends on what you are doing with it. For doing ones and twos, Tormach is perfect. You want to even tempted for business and production, go for Haas. Syil is interesting though. I need to see it in person. I’m so ready to move up from my S31100.
Smart just released an interesting machine too. It starts at $40K, and doesn't need a ton of options like the Haas does to be usable.
@@AudacityMicro Which one?
it's their new mini-mill. I just published a new video that shows it
Good video. I’ve been in the business since 1976 and can tell you about so much in this industry. Key points are the machine’s availability’s at the time periods. When I purchased my CNC machines they were all from Japan. Everyone cringed and called them junk. Well truth be told today they are still some of the best machines out there. I have statistical proof of just how good they have been. Case in point my first lathe was a Miyano ENC 3BC. That thing made precision parts for nearly 30 years before we replaced it with a Miyano LS series. Now at that time there were simply were no US manufactures of machines in the small to mid range size. So you had little choice. Biggest problem was which one was best for your application. Then along came Hurco and Fadal in the milling area. Competition and market place drove the industry to companies such as Haas. I feel Haas machines are a good value over all. However they rape you on things they shouldn’t. It’s like putting a five dollar bill in your left pocket while taking a ten out of your right. Service in our area leaves much to be desired. And as you pointed out there is a lot going on with China. At the rate this country is headed China will own us. I’m glad I’m close to the end of my life cycle on this planet. That’s a pretty sad situation. Last agreement is NEVER, EVER, EVER purchase anything the first year it comes out. Do you honestly believe you did anything right the first time out? Ah that would be a big fat NO. Good video young man. Nice to see young ppl who are on the ball and interested in machining. 👍🏼👍🏼
Great insight. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed!
A nicer lathe would be awesome. This is not half bad id be interested to see the doosan dem in the line up roo
Agreed on all points!
DarkAero inc uploaded a video showcasing the 1500MX, they seem to have gotten the first one out of the factory 😅 but it looks nice to see in action
Someone else just mentioned that! I'm going to check it out later today
Im biased, but my choice would be a hurco vm10. I hear alot of people in forums complain about service guys, but in the 6 years i ran a hurco most of the problems could be fixed by the operator. Also the conversational is just so nice to use for small runs and quick jigs
Well Conversational is good on the Hurco but you need all the software option. And thats alot of $$
I like hurco, they are local to me here in Indiana, and a hurco was the first ever VMC I hit cycle start on.
Buuuut they don't really play in the same class. They are generally larger and more expensive than the machines we are talking about here. For example, I don't think a single hurco fits through my shop door, the Syil and the new Tormach do.
@@AudacityMicro The Hurco VM ONE is the smallest Hurco and its just a few inches bigger than the SyilX7. But i dont know the priceing on that. Especially if you spec out the Software Options ( there is alot ) .
I believe it came out to like $60K. Buuuut, it's too tall to fit through my door. Even the Syil would have involved some disassembly.
I bought my hurco vm10 in 2020 for £45k in a package with some software options. I used the conversational for 18 months or so, but not really since. Everything is from fusion now, even quick things. Very impressed with the machine and nothing has gone wrong apart from a faulty door switch that was replaced 6 months in. The vm5 is their smallest i believe. The vm1 is between the vm10 and vm5 i think. Theres a uk company calle xyz that do a machine called an op2 mill that is very small
I'd much rather buy a second hand machine than a Tormach.
Hass makes machines in China? I did not know that. Is it only this new DC-1 or other models too? We only have one Hass in the shop I work at the UMC750SS but I do like Hass especially the easy to use control, great for learning.
Just the DC-1 and now the new DC-2. Everything else is made in the US to my knowledge.
I’m getting the redesign Mini mill!
Awesome! Those things are sweet! I would I could fit the SS in my shop, but the tool turret makes it too tall to fit through my freakishly small door.
@@AudacityMicro Yeah I had the same problem so I removed a wall to get the machines in. LOL fun day!
@AudacityMicro A chain saw and a few Natty lights would get the door opened up no problems. Just throwing ideas out there.
On the subject of upgrading, where do companies offload their used machines when they upgrade? I've been looking at a Haas for a while now, but as I pool capital, I'm wondering if I can get more capability for roughly the same price if I go with an older but serviceable unit versus a brand new one.
Honestly, Facebook marketplace, eBay, and through machine resellers is still the easiest way to find them. The cheapest way is to just be friends with local shops. Make sure they know you are looking for something. They will either have something they want to get rid of, or know someone who is.
There are industrial resellers like HGR inc, many sites. But as audacity says if you search around locally you might be better off getting it right from the source.
Can you link me to the place where you found the information that Haas is made in China?
- I can't find anything about it. Yes they have a department down there, but officially they ensure that they make all components and assemblies of machines in USA.
Just the DC-1 is an OEMd Chinese machine. Do some googling, you'll find the info. I have confirmation from a few inside sources too.
DC1 is straight off alibaba, just with Haas control.
Great explanation. 👌
Thanks!
So I just saw that Hurco has a 50k machine as well.
Is that the VM one? Those aren't quite in the same class as the ones I'm talking about here, though are pretty sweet. With options they quickly get above 50K. DMG mori also has a similar machine that is really interesting.
I'm not quite sure how to define the class or machines we're talking about, but the hurco feels a little too industrial for it. I would love one of those hurcos however. Hurco is local to me, so I've always had a soft spot for them.
@@AudacityMicrowhich DMG you meant ?
I want to say it's called the DMG One as well? But I may be remembering wrong. Don't quote me on that.
@@AudacityMicro I think is DMG M1 ?
That sounds right
Have you seen any of the Haas VF series clones from China? When I was visiting a factory my company setup there, I saw hundreds of them, they are virtually identical machines (software included) without any of the haas logos.
On one side of the factory was what we setup with genuine machines, and then it’s like they just copied and pasted that 10 times with cloned machines. I had never seen anything like this and from what I could tell tinkering with them, it would’ve been hard to tell other than the different logos and really tearing one apart. Quality looked decent on them too and the parts they were producing were in tolerance.
I’ve heard stories in my industry of Chinese factories cloning manufacturing lines but I never expected them to clone machines, and not to such a high quality standard!
Interesting! I haven't no. But I guess it isn't too surprising
I think I'm still going with the Milltronics because I'm that American
You could get a used vf4 for these prices. Which is wildly more machine...
Wrong type of machine for what we are comparing here. It's like recommending a used tractor on a video about the new Honda Civic. The people buying these machines are looking for something small that can easily fit in a garage so they can make pocket knives, they don't need or want the extra work envelope, power, and rigidity that comes with a large machine like that
Can you start a business with a 1500? I'm a engineer with 15 years of product development and manufacturing experience. I have always wanted to start my own manufacturing and Automation business. I have done some engineering work on the side of my full time job. But it hasn't been consistent.
I started a business on a Tormach 1100mx, which is a less capable machine, so it should also be possible on a 1500mx. It may or may not be the perfect machine depending on what your aim is, but it's certainly a viable option.
@@AudacityMicro did you have a product? Or did you start off with the mill and find work for it?
I started with a product, yes. Though I run a podcast, and my co-host started his jobshop on a 1100mx. The 1500 is seriously a giant leap up from the 1100, so I have no doubt it would be perfectly fine for starting a business.
Tormach used to be the only option short of a used machine for someone just starting off, there's a few more options now, but I would still recommend it to someone who isn't already an experienced machinist.
lol jesus christ these prices are skyrocketing. Got my VF2 for 37000 USD with HSM brand new back in 2018. Buying chinese should be an absolute NOGO for everything.
Yup, machines are expensive now. A bare bones VF2 is like 65K now.
still can't believe you aren't talking about Hurco, they are the best bang for buck when it comes to mills. end of ;-)
I don't have anything against hurcos, but they are just a different class of machines. It would kinda be like talking about a Honda Civic in a video about motor cycles. Nothing wrong with the Civic, but it's not a direct comparison.
the haas is an drill machine !
Doubled in price in the last few years?
Which one?
Supply chain not issues between US and China. American products so popular in China as myself drive Tesla. use iPhone. drink Starbucks…..also Tormach and HAAS both have Chinese supplied products…
So I absolutely agree, at the moment there aren't any problems with the supply chain. And I have zero issues buying an import machine. There are however some inherent risks to it, 1) political situations do change. If Trump gets re-elected next year, and decides to do something stupid, then we may start to see things like excessive tariffs. 2) many shops need to be ITARs certified. They completely banned the use of huawei products from any shop that is ITAR, it isn't a stretch for them to expand that to "all Chinese electronics".
I understand better than most, that the US depends on trade with China, and even the most "American" machines have a large percentage of import components. And honestly that is a good thing, countries that trade with each other don't go to war.
I know this wasn't clear in the video, but I do think the Syil machine is the best value of all of the machines I mentioned. You get picked on because you are the reigning champ. I think there's some fear and uncertainty that exists for many American customers around your machines, which is keeping you from selling more of them. If you had a really good RUclips channel, with good tutorials and maintenance/repair walkthroughs, you would be able to mitigate a lot of that. You also need to have a website where you sell spare parts, with the prices listed, and the ability to buy online. If you can put those things together, you will be the unquestioned champ.
Shoot me an email if you want help with your RUclips channel. We can work something out. AJ@audacitymicro.com
100% on syil. If they had better customer service other than shitty Titan of CNC I would give them a chance. The syil is built way better than the other two. Period. We own 16 cnc machines here and the syil is built just like the real machines. The haas mini mill is 1/2 plate welded together frame.
So I don’t understand your HAAS statement about its Chinese manufacture. Are you saying all their machines are at least made there? Or is it just this one? What I don’t like is the rumors that they still sell to Russia after the embargo.
I am referring exclusively to the DC-1. To my knowledge all of their other machines are made and assembled in the US, with the possible exception of some jellybean parts.
The 1500mx has a lot of nice options and it’s way better than the smaller models, but the pricing is silly. Literally who is going to spend in the neighborhood of $50k (with options) for a machine with 4 hp and a non-industrial PC based control? For the same price you can get an X7 with almost 3x the power, a used Speedio or spend a little more and get a haas super mini.
I feel like they’re trying to appeal to a market that doesn’t really exist, at least not at the prices they’re asking for. Installing a phase converter is really not that difficult.
You may not see the market, but it exists. I would put money on there being more 1500mxs in a year, than Syils and DC-1s combined. It's really just down to how fast Tormach can crank them out.
I got a syil x7 quoted with chip conveyer and tool probe. It came out to 50k including the 3k for shipping and the converter. I would still have to rent a forklift to get it off the truck and run power.. to me the tormach would be a better fit for me as a hobbyist making my own prototypes. I can move this machine easily with a pallet jack. Plus I am close to the tormach headquarters.
@@richgebhardt7960 You can easily transport the Syil with a pallet jack to. You'd need the Forklift only for unloading.
@@richgebhardt7960 You can pay $300-$500 more for delivery of a Tormach from a truck with a liftgate (unless you have a loading dock), or have it delivered with a 'regular' truck and rent the forklift. Either way, you'll likely be spending some money just to 'get it off the truck.' The forklift is also useful for lifting the machine onto the stand (at least on the 1100 models...not sure if that needs to be done with the 1500).
Tormachs are made in China as well, so any security concerns about China apply to both. And I do believe, since SYIL openly calls itself a Tormach competitor, SYIL is a result of a Tormach factory (direct supplier OR otherwise) building its own machines, using TITAN to do the "Authenticity Branding". Plus, being someone who really would like own a CNC VMC, amazingly everything about these machines is made in China + competition, but prices never come down to a level where you do not have to take out loan to buy these machines. What is this competition for then? Would love for someone to tell me why?
So you have some interesting points here. So firstly, yes I don't really think there is a security difference between the two machines. The Syil factories are completely separate from the Tormach ones. up until the 1500MX they were based on completely different kinematic structures, with different types of castings.
The cost question is an interesting one, and the answer is, the cost of the machine doesn't really matter, it's the ability of the machine to make profit. If I can get a loan on the machine for $500 a month, and the machine can make me significantly more than $500 per month, then it is a good investment. The price of the machine is really determined by the value that a user can get out of the machines.
Even if you CAN afford to buy a machine cash, its' generally not worth it. Why blow all of your cash on a machine that you could get a loan on? that cash could be invested in other things that can help the business grow.
These economics don't apply to hobbyists, and I get that. But for a hobbyist it's all just scales of luxury anyway. cash strapped hobbyist could convert a manual machine for a fraction of the cost, and get more hours of entertainment out of it.
@@AudacityMicro appreciate the quick response.
Okay so.
1. Thanks for letting me know the specifics. I stated that both the machines comes from the same factories or supplier based on my interactions with firm founder/owner. Plus, when someone calls themselves direct competitor, means they've found a way to replicate exactly what their competitors are selling and then undercut them in pricing.
2. I get your point about the value of machine being what it's output is. But by that logic a desktop 3d printer should be in 1000s and not 100s of dollars. You must have seen the output people are getting from their desktop Prusas and Enders, with the new Bambu X1S being a game changer. Profitable businesses with revenues in 10s of 1000s of dollars are being created. And many earn more than individual machine shops, or I should say profit margin way higher than machine shops. So, I ask, which one should change their prices, the CNC Mills or desktop printers?
I know the parts to build a cnc milling are different than a 3d printer, but they aren't that expensive to make a bambu worth $1000 and simple VMC in 30,000s. Plus, these are all made in china. We can get cars for less than these machines. Definitely seems like the industry really does not want to let prices come down.
Syil had been building machines way before they partnered with Titan.
@@loukola5353 what? Yeah, i know that. I've known them and spoke to them before they partnered with TITAN. What's your point?
3D printers don't follow the same rules, because they are largely focused on hobby users, and it's much more difficult to make money on a 3D printer. Sure people can make money on them, but those businesses are more about the designs, and less about the printer.
And I'm not sure you really understand the scale difference between a full sized VMC and a 3D printer. One ballscrew for a VMC probably has more raw materials in it than an entire 3D printer, not even taking precision manufacturing into account.
Now there are small desktop mills (or routers really, but that's just a nomenclature thing, they are the same type of machine). There's the shapoko machines, the nomad, the Bantam machines, the Sherline mill, the Carvera, and tons of cheap import machines. A lot of those have basically gotten just about as cheap as they possibly can. If you want to get started, checkout the Sherline stuff. Those are surprisingly capable for their size. Find a used machine and convert it, or buy their "CNC ready" machine, you can easily get a small mill running for less than $500.
Bro, you look like you need atleast 3 more hours of sleep each night... but your energy doesn't say that.
Syil is like 1 ton heavier than the Tormach. So the Tormach is not even in the same universe (than all other compared machines). I hate to say it but weight matters - alot.
Sure, assuming all the machines are equally well designed, the heavier one will cut better. But that doesn't mean we can't compare the machines. The 1500mx will take sales from Syil, and the X5 and X7 will take sales from tormach. They are in similar price ranges, and will be used by similar customers. For someone who is making aluminum keychains or something the weight won't matter. So it's fair to compare them.
Where did you hear that the Haas DC-1 is made in China? Are all components made there or just a few?
So, I am operating off of rumors and other second hand information, but it's pretty well documented at this point, and Haas hasn't denied it.
But it's literally a white labeled machine. It looks like the whole thing is made in China, and shipped to the US. There might be some minor assembly in the US, but Haas is getting a mostly complete machine from overseas.
So you're mainly referring to the DC1 machine? I've seen pretty recent videos of Haas machines being built in their Oxnard plant. My VF2 has documents stating it was made in Oxnard.
Oh, yeah. What I was saying exclusively applies to the DC1, to my understanding the other machines are almost exclusively made in the US.
Oh I see. Wow thats not good. I hope they become more transparent about that. They're pretty clear about their tooling line not being made here. Hope this isn't the startof a new trend there when it comes to their machine builds.
Keep up the good work 👍🏽. Your videos are cool!
Explain me please, how the fact that the SYIL is Chinese makes it a security risk.. 🧐
If you are going to keep doing this breaking news reviews, I better subscribe.
Uuuuh, I'm going to be honest. The scope of "industry news" I can cover knowledgeably is rather limited. While I like these videos, I'm really familiar with Tormach and Syil, and have some inside information on those companies, but that's about it. Unless those companies do more interesting things more often, then there aren't going to be too many more news videos.
I mean, your content is just what I need right now. I was about to buy the Syil because, well... Mr. Titan fan, and your Haas video stopped me on my tracks. I was jumping back and forth on those machines and then you surpriseme again with the Tormach. Now I feel I have more leverage than ever as a buyer.
I wouldn't know if is not for you.
im glad it was helpful! The syil is still the best bang for the buck, the Haas is the highest performance, and the tormach is the most approachable, it basically just comes down to your priorities!
I would prefer Tormach since they use LinuxCNC under the hood... in case Tormach is running into issues the machine can always be serviced somehow. Syil & Haas ... no way... However I'm on my crusade with a refurbished Mitsubishi which I'm working on converting to LinuxCNC.
There's definitely some nice flexibility to Linux CNC
For such an expensive piece of equipment, I'd rather just pay the 5k or whatever extra and get the haas.
Hmm what are your security issues? There is nothing in there talking home if they use siemens control or do you think they cheat a pice of software in?
Honestly, I don't think there are security issues. I just know it's a concern that some Americans have 🤷♂️. I can see a world where tensions heighten with China, and any import machine gets banned from ITARs. But that's really the only legitimate risk.
@@AudacityMicro Quite frankly you're fcuked when it comes to that. Almost everything contains something made in China. Even the 828 is partially made there.
Brother this Industry is kicking your butt cause those discolored bags under your eyes are telling take a vacation and relax and enjoy life a little
Eh, that's just how I look. Sometimes I work late, but most the time I'm fine.
Eh, that's just how I look. Sometimes I work late, but most the time I'm fine.
The haas DC-1 is built in china. But a big markup. The tormach is more $$ then the syil. The tormach is built in Mexico.
Speaking of big markups, let's not forget the $10,000 router from Haas (basically a 3020 router with a Haas control). :)
As cool and well priced as Syil is..I've seen WAY too many issues regarding chatter, and overall rigidity. The frame is great, but the spindle seems to have a problem with anything other than extremely small woc cuts from what people are saying online. Can even hear it scream in the titans video where they made that toolseter piece.
To me, if my 2019 SMM2 from Haas can do a MUCH more heavy cut without screaming like a baby, my dreams to purchase a Syil to sit next to it will never really become a reality. It makes no sense.
The Haas DM1 or 2 is a better option at these prices
The DM and DT are quite a bit more expensive (when new), require 3 phase, and don't fit in most garages. I would take a used DM/DT over any of these machines any day, but they aren't really in the same category. For example, I can fit a Syil or the new Tormach in my shop no problem, but the DM doesn't fit through my door.
@@AudacityMicro You make a fair point. However, a Sawzall will remedy the garage door situation. That and add a 3 phase converter from phase technologies and you’re good to go!
Has anyone even seen a dc-1 being used? Looks nice, but not sure about it.
I know of exactly one that is in operation, and that is at Gimbal Automation. They seem to like it, and gave it a pretty positive review.
@@AudacityMicro To have the customer support of HAAS, the HAAS control, overall specs, and certain bells and whistles, honestly looks better than the Tormach and Syil. Wish there were more reviews, but it is still relatively new.
I don't understand you explained that parts are all made in Europe and Japan why would you have problem finding replacing parts yet you think a chinese made Haas is fine because it has name behind it? 😅
It's not the name, it's the supply chain. Haas has the best service and support for machines in the US. They have the best logistics to handle parts too. If something catastrophic happens (let's say an embargo) Haas has the resources to figure something out. Plus they will almost certainly be warehousing replacement parts.
i love your videos
Thanks!
Y for me i hate how price range of 5 to 15k. Does not have any good options that would still work with 2" face mill with at least low carbon steel. And i live in Finland where everything gets slapped with heavy tax when imported outside EU. And EU made machines are hell expensive. Because this uses machines are really used to the core like from early 90.
2" facemill on steel?? I probably wouldn't do more than very light passes at that size with my Brother Speedio VMC!
@@ewildgoose if i could get
Continuous torque of 2.2kw on less than 600rpm. 0.07inch is possible on vc 370f/min. I use metric unit so i like to go 666 rpm feed 666mm/min😈. High speed spindles are bad with bigger diameter tools because they lose torque on low rpms. Most spindles only tell torque starting from 1500rpm.
Hey AJ, I am a little confused. Tormachs are produced in China are they not? I believe some of are its components are made in the US, but the machine are made in China.
It's a mix, which to my understanding, has changed back and forth over time. I believe the dovetail machines are mostly built in China, with some assembly happening in the US. But Tormach recently bought a company in Mexico, to my understanding this is their first machine coming out of that plant. They say the casting is American, but I'm sure there are still plenty of Chinese parts in it.
I remember when the Tormach 1100 machines first came out (2006 or so, if I remember correctly) I did a lot of searching around and found the exact same machine (same castings, colors, stand, etc.) available in China, with the only difference being that those machines had an option of a Siemens Sinumerik control, or what appeared to be a Chinese knockoff of Fanuc. My guess would be that those machines (at least the 1100 size models) have/had been produced in China before Tormach even existed.
@@Dyna78 That is correct. The dovetail series tormachs have always been whitelabled. I think tormach tweaked the design slowly over time, and added things like their own controller, but the bones have always been that same OEM import machine. The 1500mx is actually different, and their own design.
Uh, potential supply chain issues with China don't go away by buying US made. They all use electronic components out of China, it's literally impossible to build advanced circuit boards without (if you don't have a military budget).
True! Very valid point! Electronics will certainly be an issue. Anything machined/fabricated we can do over here, maybe not at a competitive price, but we have the infrastructure. But yeah, at the moment the US just doesn't have the ability to make electrical components.
At 45k then You might as well keep saving for a Brother. It's like 3 times the machine.
That's kinda like going to someone who is shopping for a nice bicycle and telling them about you can get a motorcycle for just a bit more. Technically accomplishes the same thing, but not the same product.
You may not be looking for one of these machines, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own time and place. Yes, I would take a speedio over any of these machines any day. I'm looking at an M200 for my next machine. But just to get that machine in my door is going to cost me $10K (rigging, plus I need to modify my shop for it to fit). Plus I'll need a phase converter, which is another few K. Plus I'll have to learn the controller, which will take me a few days.
That 1500 could land on my floor today, and be up and running tomorrow without any additional costs and learning time. Suddenly the 1500 is like 1/4rd the cost of a low end speedio. I've out grown any of the machines I talked about here, so I'm not going to be buying those. I need more accuracy and 5 axis. But if I was just starting out, it would be hard to argue against a Syil or 1500.
👍👍👍👍👍
🙂
A machines weight is the way to compare the only caveat being these damn zippy ways. The only thing that could be worse would be round ways.
Would never own a machine tool that either had these rails or what I call zippy ways or round ways.
Only caveat would be EDM machines.
They will have zippy ways and that is fine.
Uhhhh modern rails are actually awesome. I'm sure you can get more rigidity out of box ways, and hydrostatic ways are super cool, but there's a reason everyone uses rails now. They are cheaper, more accurate, faster, smoother, and more rigid than older style machines.
Unfortunate the the DC-1 is also a chinese machine :(
It's not legitimacy. China does not make precision bearings anywhere close to Korean and Japanese levels of precision. Also their metallurgy isn't that good. if you are going to build precision machining tools you only have a short list of suppliers for these parts to begin with.
I'll second that opinion...spindle bearings in my 1100, with light/normal use and no crashes, trashed themselves in less than 50 hours. Luckily they are a common size that could be replaced with a higher quality/more reputable brand.
I wouldn't touch any of these machines.
That's fine, you just aren't the target audience 🤷♂️.
@AudacityMicro maybe but everyone would be way better off with a gently used Japanese machine for the same price.
Maybe 🤷♂️. But I can't fit a speedio through my door. Plus gently used ones are still way more expensive than these, and they are way less beginner friendly. Most people also don't have three phase, or the ability to move a machine like that. Suddenly you are adding rigging and a phase converter, and your talking about $80K minimum for a lightly used speedio.
@@85CEKR Agreed. I'm in the market for a Brother.
just get a brother or a used Japanese machine
Syil is cheap epoxy concrete garbage.
I'd rather take old retrofitted iron instead of that trash any day.
Touch it bad once, during rigging or whatever and that junk breaks right apart.
Or cheap out on foundation, leave it unleveled for some time and it crack, if you're unlucky.
I mean, if you want a hobby, go for it. But for a real business, playing with retrofits is just irresponsible.
At only 4HP it's an under powered, overpriced turd.
Now tell us how you really feel 🤣
Yeah....no.