It is now imperative that those that allowed the worst case of a miscarriage of Justice in British history now be arrested under caution, charged and imprisoned. There can be no excuses.
You could argue that it is exactly the job of mass media to expose scandals. Let's face it there are dozens that could be exposed. Sadly this is a rare example of them doing their job.
Indeed, but that's the British public for you! More interested in celebs and trash TV than in the numerous serious newspapers, journals, radio and TV news investigations and documentaries that have covered this repeatedly over the last decade.
@@Denali1600I don't disagree about your view of the tv audiences but my point was more that every voice that was raised about this matter was ignored and/or silenced, because big corporations were able to railroad them, and nobody in power took up the cudgels in defence of the "little people" who were so wrongly branded criminals.
@RaymondWilliams-uu1ns willingly. I remember when this hit the headlines years ago, and at the time I couldn't believe so many spm staff were crooked, but as nothing happened loudly enough to refute the accusations, it was allowed to drop below the radar.
She may've been advised to hand back her 'honour' in order to staisfy public outcry and potentially lessen her complicity in the scandal......but I agree with you, and think that her offering to hand it back in no way excuses her behaviour overall.
Does anyone else realise? Enacting legislation to 'pardon' (not overturn the convictions) will sweep it under the carpet fast, with minimum so called compensation? A retired Head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV today stating that legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted. They haven't been, even though it would have only taken months (instead of the years so far) for the commission and Court of Appeal to overturn the convictions. It could have been done long ago. No doubt they could also award a much higher level of compensation to surviving victims. As well as properly investigate the roles and liability arising from the legal Duty of Care of those at the very top. It must go the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Highest Court for it to be properly overturned, better compensation and for the culprits to be banged to rights.
I remember when it was first mentioned on MSM news many years ago. Must be going on two decades. It was hardly more than a mention then, and a far smaller number of victims known about them. I didn't believe it at the time and never believed it since.
I have read the private eye coverage over many years. I feel the rush to exonerate those accused is being used as a smoke screen for those responsible. Ed Davy being one such person
Blatant contempt of court, fraud, perjury, false accounting - prison time must be the outcome for all involved. Post office should be prosecuted for blackmail…
Can you imagine how each SPM felt in the dock, with that perverse commentary. Looking into the eyes of a judge with crocodile tears and an alligator smile.
@@brianlopez8855 Why? if the Post Office were willing to lie to their barristers they would also have been willing to lie to their solicitors. Solicitors advise barristers and are well aware that they would be breaking the law if what they told them wasn't the truth and the resulting consequences so they won't do it.
This is shocking. Apart from the software system, failing isn't enough. Now we find the post office has withheld evidence in regards to the misery they've caused sub post masters. Surely, that's a crime in itself? Peoples lives have been ruined
But its worse, whenever there has been any appeal the Post Office has defended it to the max even after having full knowledge of the failings. They have also acted to prevent the aggrieved from receiving proper compensation.
How can they prosecute over 700 people without even finding the money they allegedly stole.... if 700 people stole from the post office most of the money would have been found, from cash being stored at houses, bank records, change of lifestyle etc... it's insane that they were found guilty when they have no evidence of the alleged theif having the money in their possesion.
@@TheLinkedList Indeed, pressured them to plead guilty to false accounting. Technically we don't have plea bargaining and as you can see they are a means for the prosecution to escape scrutiny.
I'm sure there was plenty of barristers explaining why it was perfectly reasonable to prosecute them without that vital information at the time and when normal people pointed out that it was ridiculous and the justice system was broken, they were ridiculed because they weren't experts
The Government is Considering giving out Pardons? But these people did not commit a crime! they should be publicly exonerated and compensated. the Real criminals like Paula Vennels and other CEO's should face jail time.
They should be repayed all the cash the PO stole from them + interest and a few £million each in compensation. The gov can afford it.Just means Belendsky,Israel etc get less. 👍🇮🇪🇯🇴🇨🇳🇷🇺
Private Eye were covering this for years but the Government ignored it, and the Eye even had a whistleblower from within Fujitsu who said the firm knew the software was faulty but covered it up. As usual, it took a television programme to stir up public outrage that has finally forced action. Some of the people involved at the Post Office (apart from Vennels) already had 'form' when it came to this kind of thing as well. We have just got over the public face of the debanking scandal (there is more to come), we have the sewage scandal ongoing, and here we see no one at all exercising even the most basic common sense. On and on it goes. The utter disconnect of Parliament (and Whitehall) from what is going on in the lives of ordinary people is sickening
The most sickening thing is that the post office wasn't just criminally negligent, but consciously malicious in it actions. They deliberately ruined 'little people' to protect the brand image. We cannot live in a society where the people responsible for this, escape justice. It cannot be that only the little people get sent to prison. Wealth and status cannot ever mean immunity from justice.
"They deliberately ruined 'little people' to protect the brand image."Lots of companies/organisations/hospitals, you name it, do that. And the irony is that when it all comes out, and in these internet days with much easier information spreading, it generally will come out, the damage to the 'brand' is far and away worse. But if we actually want this sort of evil doing to stop, we need far tougher laws and penalties for those who cover things up. And we need the law to go after every one of them, every time. And we all need to take a much harder line on lying. It's got far too socially and politically acceptable.
well said - Royal Mail was allowed to carry out a venal witch-hunt with the full force of the criminal law. The criminal law now needs to be applied to them. There is an argument for shutting the post office down completely.
This is precisely how our Government act and numerous other organisations. It's horrifying that I am not more surprised by this, this is what happens when they get caught out. But, this goes on all the time and that isn't right.
@@alisonwilson9749absolutely, lots of companies and some people in our government are like this, and this is why they need to imprison and empty the bank accounts of immoral earnings of the guilty, no matter who they are, or their status in life, no person should be above the law. And they need to know this.
It appears, that glitches (or some) were initiated by power outages and bad Internet or T1-T2 connections which affects rural areas more than towns and cities. As a retired IT specialist in this field, I can say the entire Horizon system was not and is not fit for purpose.
Not only a good point but an accurate point!! Speaking from experience as an ex sub-postmaster who’s own post office was closed even though it made a significant profit each and every week!!
@@peterw4338 it seems to the the system a) did not store transactions locally on at least two hard drives b) did not have even a small UPS to ensure the system continued to work throughout a small power interruption And that's before we even mention the shady covert operations department (their shiftiness was very well acted).
I knew a couple who was caught up in this, they lived in my street only 25 houses so everybody knew everybody, when they got taken to court etc we all stood behind them, they were told to plead guilty, we all knew they were not, but the shame made them sell their house and move, I can only hope they are still alive and take The Post office for everything, I will never forget one of them in tears leaving the street behind, they were so ashamed they never kept in contact with us, I hope the get millions!!! and accusers get prison time!
This power of the Post Office was granted when it was Royal Mail. Why does the PO still have this extraordinary power. I really cannot imagine that even the Tories think other companies like Marks & Spencer or Tesco should have such powers.
Absolutely 💯. No organisation should be able to prosecute behind closed doors and limit the evidence. It's the last remnants of an archaic system not far removed from fifedoms where local leaders made their own laws...
Surely these 'lies and deceit' amount to perverting the cause of justice? Surely there are individuals within the Post Office who will be liable for criminal prosecution for this?
Is contaminating our waterways with sewage a criminal offence? Answer; It is if you are a farmer. If you are a large Water company obviously not, otherwise there would have been prosecutions from our ever vigilant regulatory authorities! Is taking a 60 million pound cut for arranging substandard ppe while getting preferential treatment as a supplier of same (ahead of, say British firms already producing ppe, whose offers were ignored by government) at all corrupt. Of course not. What about the guy who arranged shipping for the government while not owning a single boat? Anyone even remember that one? And now that old institution the Post Office,; whose officials knew damn well there was a ghost in the machine , but decided to sacrifice the lives of thousands of hardworking people for the sake of their salaries/ knighthoods/ whatever. Perverting the course of British Justice is probably just another part of the job description if you want to stay in a good job nowadays. If we dont wake up and look at who we a being governed by ; we may end up with a populist nasty piece of work like Trump ,pointing out the deficiencies of our governing classes. It's already happened in America. Time, more than time to get rid of the psychos and sociopaths that put their public careers above the good of the public.
I was asked to look into this problem in 2000 and was told to jog on by the Post Office. I was a forensic accountant tasked to investigate a shortfall - and I proposed a logical and simple solution. Post Office would not let me look at Horizon or any of the outputs from the system. They shut us down completely. My proposition was to compare the transactions as per the postmistress with Horizon’ transactions to identify the differences. But Post Office would not let us do this. As an accounting exercise it was not difficult and we could have solved the problem. But no - Post Office we’re not interested.
Also, as an accountant, I've been wondering why this did not happen. Who audits what and how? Without that data, surely no responsible auditor would sign off the accounts.
@@LesD9 Not only the accounts, but without proper evidentiary logs of the transactions as input by the SPMs and the calculations done by Horizon to get to the results there should have been no prosecutions. "Beyond reasonable doubt" seems to have been swapped for "because the post office say so" as an evidentiary standard. POL should have been made to show step-by-step how the SPMs defrauded them. Each value they input, each calculation made. Without those logs, it's impossible to prove fraud. Also more tellingly, without those logs being made available to the defence, it's impossible to prove innocence as well.
As I said before, transaction logs that were sent to post office hq were not saved locally, so postmasters or their accountants could not access them readily for accounting/auditing purposes.
@@markphillips2076 Exactly the judges should have been ruling the evidence presented by the Post Office as inadmissible and throwing the cases out. The rot runs deep.
My village sub-postmaster frequently dipped into his own pocket to correct errors in the system. I wonder how many others were in this position. These never went to court of course. So the problem was much wider I would assume.
The Minister for PO affairs says that 3,500 were accused! Surely the SPM's contracts were invalidated when Fujitsu became able to change the data remotely? The contracts were based on manual records produced exclusively by the SPM's themselves.
@@robertsprigge5535 And many probably stumped up the balance and never got accused- but, in effect, their money was taken by the PO under false pretences, as they didn't owe it. It's a truly massive scandal.
There is a phenomenon called “institutional psychopaths” which would seem to cover the culture that has emerged within organisations over the last generation. Really rather alarming and it runs very deep.
Ask why there is no right of Consent in the Human Rights Act. Ask why so many MPs end up in the dock for a particular class of offences. Its a subcategory of those Institutional Psychopaths.
They won't be. As BBB said in previous video, barristers are legally bound to treat each case individually on the available evidence. Any misgivings they may have don't come into it.
@@davidspear9790 I fully accept that a barrister has to do their best to defend their client, however much they may dislike their client, or even suspect their client may be guilty. It's the jury's job to decide on that. And everyone is entitled to legal representation. And I also accept that if a barrister is lied to by their client, or a client conceals evidence from them, then they aren't magically able to know that. But...what if a barrister is a knowing party to concealing evidence from the defence? Is there no penalty for that either?
Someone needs to make a Class Complaint to the SRA Solicitors Regulation Authority against ALL solicitors employed or engaged by the post office during this period. They all need to be investigated and if required disciplined by their professional body.
There are clearly criminal charges to come for Post Office employees, but we should not overlook the fact that the courts themselves failed. So many false convictions is unacceptable. Judicial heads need to roll.
@@davidblyth5495 No. The issue here is one of disclosure of the evidence. The judge doesn't perform that role. It's down to the barristers for both the prosecution and the defence. That is where it has gone wrong. And also possibly any lies told by the Post Office to their barristers representing them. All they needed to do was demand to see a copy of the defect register for the Horizon system. *EVERY* IT supplier developing a system maintains a defect register for the system they are developing, testing and in operation. But barristers are not IT experts and probably did not know to ask for the defect register, let alone know what it is, what its purpose is and how it could be useful to them.
It is disgusting how people were treated through all of this as well as some who didn't make it through, their poor families. People need to be locked up for this and the right people not innocent ones.
Why didn’t it occur to any official, judge or lawyer that it was rather strange that such a large number of Postmasters were being accused of fiddling the accounts?
Even in the official inquiry, the Post Office is trying to obstruct it by refusing to present certain documents, so much so, last summer, the judge has had to tell them off and warn them about their conduct. Their behaviour is absolutely appalling.
@@markevans2294 Because the police don't interfere in inquiries being run by judges, unless the judge believes a crime has been committed and needs police involvement. Judges can issue contempt of court proceedings (which can only occur if an offence has been committed) without police involvement. Reading the directions made by the judge, he clearly informed the Post Office he has the means to take action to ensure the post office comply with their obligations. Accordingly, police involvement is not necessary.
Surely those in the Post Office and Fujitsu who sort to prevent the truth about being presented in court should be prosecuted for fraud or perverting the course of justice.
The scale of this is terrible. Some went to prison, some were made bankrupt and their names tarred in their own communities as thieves. Four of them took their own lives. There's a hell of a lot to answer for.
Not to even mention that ignoring everything else, that even being cleared, there are many who'd still be suspicious of them, for some reason or another...
We hear all the time that the POST OFFICE won’t do this or the POST OFFICE can’t do that. Who are these people in the POST OFFICE that are un -named and not being investigated. The constant failure of the POST OFFICE, again who was failing.
CEO Paula Vennels, CEO Tim Parker, Angela van den Bogard who was supposed to handle any complaints about Horizon, heavily critisied by the Judge during the first big case ....
if you are an officer of the company, e.g.a director, when you speak it is the company speaking. This is important in a case like this as it makes the Post Office liable for their actions civilly while they have to answer criminally.
I am concerned about the possibility that if the Post Office were deceptive enough to hide evidence, what guarantees do we have that Fujitsu hasn't engaged in similar behaviour or has already done so? Considering that Fujitsu conveniently misplaced the visitor's book containing proof of Michael Rudkin's visit to their offices, where he discovered that Fujitsu had remote access to the Horizon system and was manipulating subpostmasters' figures, it suggests a capability for underhanded tactics.
You have not been following closely. Fujitsu has also been lying to and misleading the courts. Initially, the Post Office was being lied to by Fujitsu, it took a while before the Post Office cottoned on that they were being lied to but at that point rather than blowing the whistle they joined in.
@@robertsprigge5535 Absolutely, what baffles me if we can see the coincidence, how come the courts didn't question anything when the same convictions against hundreds of postmasters kept coming through the door, I can't help but believe we are only just seeing the tip of the iceberg here, and this miscarriage of justice goes far deeper than is being brought to our attention. I heard somewhere that the Post Office are still challenging the quashing of convictions, I don't know if that is true.
Isn't it odd that so many people behind this truly awful injustice have titles and honours? Even IF i had a knighthood which I deserved, or had earned, I would hand it back. I have no wish to be to be in the same 'club' as the disgusting creatures that allowed this horror to happen, let alone sat on it for so many years while ordinary decent people suffered.
Try to prosecute any Royal and see where it gets you. When your King receives Harrods carrier bags stuffed with cash to launder through his charities, and a simple wave of a hand makes it all disappear. What price to join the "club" then.
@@jonwyatt3694 Andy's mummy paid off Virginia Giuffre. It's sad that she took the hush money which made me think she was only after the cash? 👍🇮🇪🇯🇴🇨🇳🇷🇺
@@grissom2023 2001 when incriminating pictures taken. Andrew's denials regarding her span a quarter of a century. So after nearly 25 years, NO I don't think it was about cash.
@@jonwyatt3694But the US is not going to request extradition. They only extradited autistic children who hack their dodgy military programs and help to ruin the life of Julian Assange. As for Andy Pandy they will do nothing. They asked to interview him once but were told to piss off and being good boys, that is what they did.
I am totally and utterly appalled at this situation. How on earth can this happen today when we have so many checks and balances in all our systems. There must be consequences.
Well, the Vennells woman has decided to hand back her CBE. What enrages me is that this woman was an ordained priest. Justin Welby wanted her to be Bishop of London. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing. To paraphrase Elizabeth I's alleged words "God may forgive you, but no right-minded human being ever will".
Only the King can remove an honour on the advice of the PM after a report by the forfeiture committee, ( it will happen)she can't hand it back, and even if she tried it would get lost in the post.
"Ordained Priest"! She must have been the only one who met the that thing in so-called heaven drabbed with long beard !Maybe she met the Devil on her way down to Earth!
I remember all these post masters hitting the press for being thieves. They were being labelled before any court cases. There were so many cases that even to a non techi lay person (myself), you knew it was the software and not the people. One or two crooks in the business are understandable but this many was fantasy built on denial. I'm so glad they've finally been listened to and those responsible are beginning to be held to task.
The Government controls the press, trial by jury is a myth if the agenda is in the government's interest. Think back to how anything that was controversial was striken from the press over the decades and how all of it was in benefit to the banks, government and the bbc (government controlled news service funded publicly.)
Ditto. They didn't care people's lives were ruined, while they covered their own wrongdoings. Now been brought forward to distract from even worse wrongdoings. I don't think this has been re-investigated because they care, its to divert eyes from more crimes against the nation from within.
I hate that throughout all of this "the Post Office" is being blamed as if it were a legally culpable being. Individuals made decisions to commit this crime against the SPM's. Thos individuals need to be identified, charged, tried, jailed and have their names published to ensure they don't get to weasel back into positions of power over anything more significant than a single broom.
If the selection process for vetting & selecting sub-postmasters was so robust, yet all these 'untrustworthy' people were getting through, then surely they can evidence what they were doing to improve the process. If the problem wasn't with Horizon then it was with the people. No evidence of how they were trying to stop the wrong people being selected is evidence that they knew where the actual problem was.
@@peterpheasey7352 Completely let off with perhaps a small rap over the knuckles and then with the usual message of "Lessons have been learned and as such these things will never happen again"...oh yes, just like air disasters, they will never happen again?
@@GlennPowell-ls3lg An here lies one of the many issue with the legal system! Solicitors are there to protect the BAR not the client. Shame on those Solicitors, I hope they get sued and dismissed as well!
@@Farweasel I suspect they had no access to legal aid because that is paid for by the government.The government are hardly likely to pay for a solicitor that is attacking them.
It happened to me a number of times, when I worked as a Post Office counter clerk. Both the Postmistress and myself would have to put our salaries in, to cover ‘shortfalls’ . I left after 8 years, it just wasn’t with the stress and worry, for a minimum wage. This whole shambolic and appalling situation is devastating.
I’ll be honest, I want nothing more to do with that organisation. My wonderful Postmistress also left less than a year after myself. We lost our money, but we fared better than many, many others. The whole thing sickens me.
This goes beyond a miscarriage into the order of known & mischievous prosecution to hide the failings of Fujitsu & the Post Office. It is appalling, yet this is modern day law in Britain where the rich get justice & the poor get law. So many are responsible in both companies & on the legal side. How many solicitors & barristers prosecuted cases & never questioned or knew that this was wrong? How many judges took the side of the PO & Fujitsu against SPMs without ever questioning the rights & wrongs? This is what the country has become, it was never good but now it's broken & corrupt & will not, without a seismic shift ever change.
With 6727 members of the NFSP (a number largely unchanged during the '00 to '15 period) and with 736 prosecutions, this was the post office saying that 10.9% of the staff they vetted and recruited were dishonest. Didn't anyone think to question these statistical aberrations at the time.
I've been watching what has been going on, even the Government talk today in Parliament. I feel so sorry for those people and even more for those who committed suicide due to what was going on. Some of these people who accused these postmasters need jail time sometime down the line.
Worst thing about this, I worked with a lady who was arrested and sentenced to 7 years for theft. Her life then fell apart she was on drugs and homeless. I have tried to find her again but no luck. I believe 100% she didn’t do anything wrong. More complex than this but her life would of been different if it wasn’t for this!
Nobody who was prosecuted for theft by The Post Office received a sentence as long as seven years - most of the sentences meted out were several months, not years - so pretty sure your anecdote doesn't relate to a prosecution by The Post Office. Posting it here is misleading.
@@auntiegc7880 please provide a link to your claim of lengths of prison sentences. Note! There were other accusations and charges aside the one of 'theft' that you mention.
@@auntiegc7880 I was a manager of a newsagent at the time with a post office within it. All I can do is tell you is what happened. She worked there for 15 years and in 2000 we had plain clothed police officers came in and arrested her she always claimed there must be something wrong with the system. We were told she had been stealing for months but what didn’t make sense is why after working there for 15 years why start. Maybe help she worked at Sir Harry’s Road post office Edgbaston, Birmingham her name is Kathrine ( I really can’t remember her last name for the life of me now!) if it comes to me I will add it. I am not trying to deceive anyone.
The whole of the board of directors of the Post Office, during the last 20 years, need to be investigated and held to account for their actions in perverting the course of justice and being the cause of the suicides of a number of falsely accused former Post Masters. The former Chairman and CEO who were directly involved in both hiding documentation from the court and frustrating ongoing investigations.
This whole thing is awful. I have worked on implementing and supporting accounting software all my working life, did it not occur to The Post Office that there was no point in a sub-post master stealing money they knew they would have to pay back at the end of each day! Therefore the first thing any half-decent person would do would be to question the system integrity.
I just don't understand how alarm bells started ringing in the Post Office when so many people were convicted/being accused of stealing money? Did they honestly think there was a conspiracy amongst the sub-postmasters to defraud them? Did nobody think surely not this many people could be stealing from them? This is why I think there's an element of malice in this whole case. But the question is...why?
The fact that some appellants sought disclosure of ARQ data, albeit unsuccessfully, surely means that prosecuting barristers and the judges in those trials were aware of its existence. Why wouldn't that be enough for them to conclude that any conviction would be unsafe?
In the TV program after the case did the prosecution question the judge's findings to delay the outcome? With what we now know this is disgraceful as they would have known the true evidence?
My local postmaster recently quit, he had paid POL 'back' considerable shortfalls, this inquiry may have caused him PTS, I hope he can get some redress to salve the memory of his distress.
It's unbelievable to me that they didn't just check all the transactions to see if the computer had entered the same amount twice or something. You would think a good forensic accountant could have proved their innocence in a day or so of analysis of the financial data.
Yes but part of what BBB has covered in this video, is that that very actual evidence DID exist, and even though PostOfficeLiars were legally obligated to hand that information to defence counsel, they did not, and further they actually claimed in court that it did not exist at all. In some cases at least, it seems that PostOfficeLiars actually mis-led and lied to their own prosecuting Barristers, initially at least.
@@KiwiCatherineJemma We can't know what their Barristers said because of legal privilege but I find it hard to believe that every one of them didn't know the Post Office was lying to them. The Barristers can't say anything but I suspect the Post Office will try to pass the buck to some of them.
A forensic accountant did investigate just as you say. That report was hidden and the forensic accountant was then taken off the job by the PO before they could investigate any further.
They did do that. That is what 3rd line support who had unrestricted and unaudited access to SPM accounts did. The problem was that if there was a further transaction at the PO before communications was re-established then the amounts would not match and the duplicate would be missed and the hapless SPM would be left with a false shortfall
No wonder Vennels handed back her CBE so quick , she knew she had been rumbled . Yet before that she and others knew the devastation they had caused including the 4 who sadly committed suicide . Could be the end of the Post office as we know it .
Not enough; don’t know what she could be charged with, but she (and all the people who were pushing this - including politicians) need serious prison time.
She should have handed it back when the 93 convictions were overturned. I think this decision is more to do with her forthcoming evidence to the public enquiry than anything else.
Did she ? Last I heard there was a petition going around demanding she be stripped of her CBE. But being the giant kokk that she is, she wasn't giving anything up voluntarily. (Maybe she's had a change of heart, that I haven't heard about?)
"Pursue the interests of the Post Office" the managers made a fatal error, the post masters and local corner shop post office is the Real Post Office! What the company wanted to protect was Post office management!!
Courts and legal system must also be accountable and some blame must lie with the judges who didnt ask simple questions that a blithering moran could clearly see issues with these original prosecutions and procedures. Qed the establishment was in on this....
My God, between the grooming gang coverup and the Post office scandal, this country is not covering itself in glory. The greed, rot and corruption runs deep.
All this prosecution happened in the courts. How did such unsafe prosecutions get through in such large numbers? Why should the public have any confidence in the justice system?
After watching the series on this awful miscarriage of justice, I felt compelled to sign the petition Ms Vennels to forfeit her CBE. If it wasn’t for the doggedness of Mr Bates and the others depicted in the drama, the Post office and Fujitsu would have gotten away with their lies and other trickery to evade the truth. I sincerely hope they are bought to task, and if possible prosecuted should the law allow it.
Para's 14,15,16,17,18, are damning indictments of the Post Office and Fujitsu 's complicity in this disgraceful fiasco there must be serious legal repercussions.
Surely those dealing with the Post Office Year-end accounts found ALL the extra money the subpostmasters were forced to pay. How was that accounted for? Was that buried aswell?
All large institutions have what are called suspense accounts which are used to allow unexplained surpluses or loses to be included in accounts. Once included into a suspense account origins of the shortfalls or surpluses are effectively lost forever.
@@daezeechayne462 At all places once "paid back" the accounts balanced.. due to the errors - it's fictional money effectively generated by Horizon in it's mistakes
@@annoyingbstard9407 And IIRC from the inquiry, those suspense accounts went up by what was it- a factor of 4x or 5x? I can't remember exactly. And nobody thought, 'hey, there is something awfully bad wrong here, we simply must get to the bottom of it'?
This is such a huge, convoluted story. Would it be possible to collaborate with your learned friend Alan and work together on an in-depth analysis of the legal shennanigans that went on? I couldn't watch the ITV drama because I knew I'd get too upset and angry, but a legal analysis of it all would be invaluable.
@@hairyairey I couldn't. I've been following the saga for quite some time and the stories are absolutely heartbreaking. The magnitude of imcompetence, dishonesty and deliberate cover up by the PO is astounding. Criminal prosecutions should follow this saga, be it perjury, perverting the course of justice, fraud, false accounting... the list seems endless. I hope BBB does a vid on the potential criminal charges that could in theory be brought against those in the PO who knew what was going on and covered it up.
People saying there should be people locked up because of this. Let's get it right. NO ONE, the prosecution, those at the Post Office with authority are going down. They should but they won't. Apologies and CBE's sent back is as much justice and those poor innocents will get
Yep absolutely correct, knowing how the system works for the elite as in Chairmans, Directors, ect, they will more likely get away with it because of there status protects them against the law. All we will probably see is one of them parliamentary select committee meetings where they bring people in and question them and then say you were naughty and then nothing else happens.
It think the simple question needs to be asked "who knew about this". Someone needs to take the fall for this. Like the postmasters on TV are saying they were suspended without pay until it was resolved.
Having dealt with ICL, later acquired by Fujitsu, I would be surprised to hear of any other of their customers describing their software as "robust and reliable". In my experience, much of ICL's software was riddled with "undocumented features". That it seems the Post Office may not have adhered fully to the rules of disclosure is absolutely appalling and, if found to be the case, appropriate action must follow against any individual responsible.
There were three reports that exposed the flaws with the Horizon system and concluded that it was unreliable and not fit for purpose. These reports were actively suppressed and hidden, and were not disclosed to the defence. They also trained staff in their SPM support unit to tell accused postmasters that they were the only one to be experiencing this issue, knowing that this was a lie.
@@robertsprigge5535 Hopefully they will go for the officers, and not for the footsoldiers. It's the people who ordered them to lie who should bear the main responsibility. But it's disturbing that none of the support staff had the integrity to go to their Union or their MP or to go public when they saw what was happening. Literally dozens of people were in on aspects of this conspiracy - makes you despair for the human race...
It’s to very upsetting that they refused to consider software error at any stage. This goes completely against what we know of the errors in technology.
Dishonesty is the core of British society. When I was younger I believed the lies of government officials. Nowadays confronting a liar in a government position usually causes problems as they refuse to perform their duty.
I assume only sub post offices were involved in this scandal. In each town, there is what I have understood to be a main post office. Did these have the same Horizon system? If they did, why no prosecution. If they didn't, what system did they use?
I can't see anybody being held accountable for this. They'll all just continue after this wealthy and consequence free while the damage has already been done to the victims
The CEO of the Post Office BEFORE Paula Venells is the one that that needs to be held more accountable as they were part of the group that actually knew and did allow it continue for whatever real reason that “they” wanted to go through all of this. All Mrs Venells really did is “carry on the torch” from her PREDECESSORS.
@chrissonnenschein6634 "Carry on the torch" is hardly appropriate... Her employers offered the role, she accepted the role, trousered the cash and bonuses. She portrayed herself as a Christian. Justin Welby is obviously a poor judge of character too... I always thought, and was taught as a child at Sunday School, that Christian people were caring, morally upright, always looked out for others... The Good Samaritan, turning the other cheek... a more appropriate last sentence would be: All Ms Venells really did is "extinguish the flames of righteousness and truth" started by her PREDECESSORS. She has already proved, herself, that reverence to a deity cannot change or influence someone's morality, their behaviour to others. She is morally bankrupt and as we have seen, a proven LIAR, obfuscator and one of the most prodigious selective amnesiacs ever employed by the Post Office; and they did employ a lot of them as Senior Management!!
It was evil not to inform subpostmasters that there was a problem with the system. It seems like they were hoping to get money from innocent postmasters.
Dear Sir, I think we shall discover that the Post Office knew of the problems with Horizon from the start, and yet prosecuted nonetheless, as your video makes clear. How could it be worse? Thank you for your videos and commentaries. I have known about this scandal about 12-13 years. How does it take so long, and how come those who were responsible for this deliberate injustice seem to be beyond examination and seeking immunity before testimony for the inquiry? It should be most interesting to know the full truth. Will we ever get it? In our world, I doubt it. I understood many years ago the software developers warned that the software was not yet ready but the Post Office adopted it nonetheless. This stinks. David.
It was mr blairs government that instigated the installation of the software into the post office system. Would not be surprised to see if there were a few bulky pockets . after this contract was delivered
What a mess. Who is liable? Post Office sign the project off and accepts the Fujitsu system after testing. To what extent is liability transferred after acceptance? System support organisations liable and at what stage of an issue being identifed to resolved? An can see layers of counter claims coming in the next few years. 😢
It is now imperative that those that allowed the worst case of a miscarriage of Justice in British history now be arrested under caution, charged and imprisoned. There can be no excuses.
As a number of postmasters were imprisoned, if the persons actually responsible are not imprisoned it will be such a miscarriage of justice !
But friends of this government, especially if they are donors are exempt from any investigation/prosecution.
I think perhaps there should be a trial in between them being charged and imprisoned?
They’re not legally exempt matthew
Don't forget Hillsborough, whose victims and families have still not received as much justice or compensation as possible.
The saddest aspect of this is that it took a tv dramatisation to give it the prominence it deserves.
You could argue that it is exactly the job of mass media to expose scandals. Let's face it there are dozens that could be exposed. Sadly this is a rare example of them doing their job.
Indeed, but that's the British public for you! More interested in celebs and trash TV than in the numerous serious newspapers, journals, radio and TV news investigations and documentaries that have covered this repeatedly over the last decade.
@@Denali1600I don't disagree about your view of the tv audiences but my point was more that every voice that was raised about this matter was ignored and/or silenced, because big corporations were able to railroad them, and nobody in power took up the cudgels in defence of the "little people" who were so wrongly branded criminals.
That is true but let’s give praise to the television production company for doing such a great job. Telling a harrowing story so clearly.
@RaymondWilliams-uu1ns willingly. I remember when this hit the headlines years ago, and at the time I couldn't believe so many spm staff were crooked, but as nothing happened loudly enough to refute the accusations, it was allowed to drop below the radar.
Paula Vennels and other CEO's should be held to account and taken to court for fraud and Blackmail, Extortion and misleading the court system.
She may've been advised to hand back her 'honour' in order to staisfy public outcry and potentially lessen her complicity in the scandal......but I agree with you, and think that her offering to hand it back in no way excuses her behaviour overall.
Could probably add murder. As it sounds like some may have committed suicide over this.
@@greyfriars6540 you don't think it's anything to do with her forthcoming evidence to the public enquiry then?
@@greyfriars6540 Exactly just look at Saville.
Does anyone else realise? Enacting legislation to 'pardon' (not overturn the convictions) will sweep it under the carpet fast, with minimum so called compensation? A retired Head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV today stating that legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted. They haven't been, even though it would have only taken months (instead of the years so far) for the commission and Court of Appeal to overturn the convictions. It could have been done long ago. No doubt they could also award a much higher level of compensation to surviving victims. As well as properly investigate the roles and liability arising from the legal Duty of Care of those at the very top.
It must go the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Highest Court for it to be properly overturned, better compensation and for the culprits to be banged to rights.
Private Eye needs to be given the credit for continuing their investigation, when other legacy media did not.
Indeed, though Private Eye frequently acknowledge that Computer Weekly broke the story first, and ran with it for some time before PE.
I read about this story first in Computer Weekly
I remember when it was first mentioned on MSM news many years ago. Must be going on two decades. It was hardly more than a mention then, and a far smaller number of victims known about them. I didn't believe it at the time and never believed it since.
I have read the private eye coverage over many years. I feel the rush to exonerate those accused is being used as a smoke screen for those responsible. Ed Davy being one such person
I heard the BBC radio series on this scandal some time ago. It seems that only a TV dramatisation really catches the attention of the general public.
Blatant contempt of court, fraud, perjury, false accounting - prison time must be the outcome for all involved. Post office should be prosecuted for blackmail…
Don't forget perverting the course of justice.
Publish a list of ALL Solicitors who worked at the Post Office Legal Team for the duration.
Can you imagine how each SPM felt in the dock, with that perverse commentary. Looking into the eyes of a judge with crocodile tears and an alligator smile.
@@brianlopez8855
ABSOLUTELY.
@@brianlopez8855 Why? if the Post Office were willing to lie to their barristers they would also have been willing to lie to their solicitors. Solicitors advise barristers and are well aware that they would be breaking the law if what they told them wasn't the truth and the resulting consequences so they won't do it.
This is shocking. Apart from the software system, failing isn't enough. Now we find the post office has withheld evidence in regards to the misery they've caused sub post masters.
Surely, that's a crime in itself?
Peoples lives have been ruined
Didn't one or two of the victims of this scandal commit suicide?
yes@@tulyar1043
@@tulyar1043At least four 😢
But its worse, whenever there has been any appeal the Post Office has defended it to the max even after having full knowledge of the failings. They have also acted to prevent the aggrieved from receiving proper compensation.
@@tulyar1043I believe 4 took their own lives as a result of this injustice
It makes me feel sick to my stomach that innocent workers have been deliberately lied to & taken to court, etc by PO. It's beyond evil.
How can they prosecute over 700 people without even finding the money they allegedly stole.... if 700 people stole from the post office most of the money would have been found, from cash being stored at houses, bank records, change of lifestyle etc... it's insane that they were found guilty when they have no evidence of the alleged theif having the money in their possesion.
You do have to wonder why this question was never asked in court? Locard's principle, every contact leaves a trace.
It's probably because they made each case plead guilty to avoid trial or something similar.
@@TheLinkedList Indeed, pressured them to plead guilty to false accounting. Technically we don't have plea bargaining and as you can see they are a means for the prosecution to escape scrutiny.
I'm sure there was plenty of barristers explaining why it was perfectly reasonable to prosecute them without that vital information at the time and when normal people pointed out that it was ridiculous and the justice system was broken, they were ridiculed because they weren't experts
Human rights abuse
The Government is Considering giving out Pardons? But these people did not commit a crime! they should be publicly exonerated and compensated. the Real criminals like Paula Vennels and other CEO's should face jail time.
Pardons? Worse than I thought. Not the same as an overturned conviction.
It should be those responsible along with the Post Office and Fujitsu who should pay the compensation.
Indeed pardoned implies you committed a crime to be pardoned of. These people committed no crime.
They should be repayed all the cash the PO stole from them + interest and a few £million each in compensation.
The gov can afford it.Just means Belendsky,Israel etc get less.
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the BBC says the convictions will be overturned.
People need jailed over this. Those poor people What an absolute nightmare to go through.
The perpetrators are going to be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
Yup, its psycho level cruelty.
JAIL THE TOP PEOPLE 10 years Min.
Private Eye were covering this for years but the Government ignored it, and the Eye even had a whistleblower from within Fujitsu who said the firm knew the software was faulty but covered it up. As usual, it took a television programme to stir up public outrage that has finally forced action. Some of the people involved at the Post Office (apart from Vennels) already had 'form' when it came to this kind of thing as well. We have just got over the public face of the debanking scandal (there is more to come), we have the sewage scandal ongoing, and here we see no one at all exercising even the most basic common sense. On and on it goes. The utter disconnect of Parliament (and Whitehall) from what is going on in the lives of ordinary people is sickening
The first to challenge Fujitsu was Computer Weekly, who rightly classed Horizon as "rubbish" and "done on the cheap".
Fujitsu have a huge responsibility in this as well. They seem to be getting scant criticism.
The most sickening thing is that the post office wasn't just criminally negligent, but consciously malicious in it actions. They deliberately ruined 'little people' to protect the brand image. We cannot live in a society where the people responsible for this, escape justice. It cannot be that only the little people get sent to prison. Wealth and status cannot ever mean immunity from justice.
"They deliberately ruined 'little people' to protect the brand image."Lots of companies/organisations/hospitals, you name it, do that. And the irony is that when it all comes out, and in these internet days with much easier information spreading, it generally will come out, the damage to the 'brand' is far and away worse. But if we actually want this sort of evil doing to stop, we need far tougher laws and penalties for those who cover things up. And we need the law to go after every one of them, every time. And we all need to take a much harder line on lying. It's got far too socially and politically acceptable.
well said - Royal Mail was allowed to carry out a venal witch-hunt with the full force of the criminal law. The criminal law now needs to be applied to them. There is an argument for shutting the post office down completely.
And in so doing, damaged the brand, and their own personal reputations, far more than would otherwise have been the case.
This is precisely how our Government act and numerous other organisations. It's horrifying that I am not more surprised by this, this is what happens when they get caught out. But, this goes on all the time and that isn't right.
@@alisonwilson9749absolutely, lots of companies and some people in our government are like this, and this is why they need to imprison and empty the bank accounts of immoral earnings of the guilty, no matter who they are, or their status in life, no person should be above the law. And they need to know this.
Seems that computer glitch was awfully selective and only effected the little post offices they wanted to shut down.
How far does this corruption go?
That's a very good point.
It appears, that glitches (or some) were initiated by power outages and bad Internet or T1-T2 connections which affects rural areas more than towns and cities. As a retired IT specialist in this field, I can say the entire Horizon system was not and is not fit for purpose.
Not only a good point but an accurate point!! Speaking from experience as an ex sub-postmaster who’s own post office was closed even though it made a significant profit each and every week!!
@@peterw4338 it seems to the the system
a) did not store transactions locally on at least two hard drives
b) did not have even a small UPS to ensure the system continued to work throughout a small power interruption
And that's before we even mention the shady covert operations department (their shiftiness was very well acted).
I reckon the larger post offices were able to prove the issue was with the software, but it was covered up as well by POL.
I knew a couple who was caught up in this, they lived in my street only 25 houses so everybody knew everybody, when they got taken to court etc we all stood behind them, they were told to plead guilty, we all knew they were not, but the shame made them sell their house and move, I can only hope they are still alive and take The Post office for everything, I will never forget one of them in tears leaving the street behind, they were so ashamed they never kept in contact with us, I hope the get millions!!! and accusers get prison time!
Isn't it about time that the Post Office was stripped of its investigatory powers so the Police and CPS can decided if a prosecution can proceed?
This power of the Post Office was granted when it was Royal Mail. Why does the PO still have this extraordinary power. I really cannot imagine that even the Tories think other companies like Marks & Spencer or Tesco should have such powers.
@VulcanDriver1... Very valid point.
Agree that changes have to be made, but I highly doubt that Police have the resources required to investigate Post Office branch losses.
Absolutely 💯. No organisation should be able to prosecute behind closed doors and limit the evidence. It's the last remnants of an archaic system not far removed from fifedoms where local leaders made their own laws...
@@auntiegc7880 Another . . . irrelevant comment!
Surely these 'lies and deceit' amount to perverting the cause of justice? Surely there are individuals within the Post Office who will be liable for criminal prosecution for this?
Is contaminating our waterways with sewage a criminal offence? Answer; It is if you are a farmer. If you are a large Water company obviously not, otherwise there would have been prosecutions from our ever vigilant regulatory authorities! Is taking a 60 million pound cut for arranging substandard ppe while getting preferential treatment as a supplier of same (ahead of, say British firms already producing ppe, whose offers were ignored by government) at all corrupt. Of course not. What about the guy who arranged shipping for the government while not owning a single boat? Anyone even remember that one? And now that old institution the Post Office,; whose officials knew damn well there was a ghost in the machine , but decided to sacrifice the lives of thousands of hardworking people for the sake of their salaries/ knighthoods/ whatever. Perverting the course of British Justice is probably just another part of the job description if you want to stay in a good job nowadays. If we dont wake up and look at who we a being governed by ; we may end up with a populist nasty piece of work like Trump ,pointing out the deficiencies of our governing classes. It's already happened in America. Time, more than time to get rid of the psychos and sociopaths that put their public careers above the good of the public.
I was asked to look into this problem in 2000 and was told to jog on by the Post Office. I was a forensic accountant tasked to investigate a shortfall - and I proposed a logical and simple solution. Post Office would not let me look at Horizon or any of the outputs from the system. They shut us down completely. My proposition was to compare the transactions as per the postmistress with Horizon’ transactions to identify the differences. But Post Office would not let us do this. As an accounting exercise it was not difficult and we could have solved the problem. But no - Post Office we’re not interested.
Also, as an accountant, I've been wondering why this did not happen.
Who audits what and how?
Without that data, surely no responsible auditor would sign off the accounts.
@@LesD9 Not only the accounts, but without proper evidentiary logs of the transactions as input by the SPMs and the calculations done by Horizon to get to the results there should have been no prosecutions. "Beyond reasonable doubt" seems to have been swapped for "because the post office say so" as an evidentiary standard. POL should have been made to show step-by-step how the SPMs defrauded them. Each value they input, each calculation made. Without those logs, it's impossible to prove fraud. Also more tellingly, without those logs being made available to the defence, it's impossible to prove innocence as well.
@@markphillips2076 Good point. Think we can get the judiciary into court?
As I said before, transaction logs that were sent to post office hq were not saved locally, so postmasters or their accountants could not access them readily for accounting/auditing purposes.
@@markphillips2076 Exactly the judges should have been ruling the evidence presented by the Post Office as inadmissible and throwing the cases out. The rot runs deep.
My village sub-postmaster frequently dipped into his own pocket to correct errors in the system.
I wonder how many others were in this position. These never went to court of course.
So the problem was much wider I would assume.
The Minister for PO affairs says that 3,500 were accused!
Surely the SPM's contracts were invalidated when Fujitsu became able to change the data remotely? The contracts were based on manual records produced exclusively by the SPM's themselves.
@@robertsprigge5535 And many probably stumped up the balance and never got accused- but, in effect, their money was taken by the PO under false pretences, as they didn't owe it. It's a truly massive scandal.
There is a phenomenon called “institutional psychopaths” which would seem to cover the culture that has emerged within organisations over the last generation. Really rather alarming and it runs very deep.
"Weaponised Incompetence" goes hand in hand with that.
Include the civil service.
Ask why there is no right of Consent in the Human Rights Act. Ask why so many MPs end up in the dock for a particular class of offences. Its a subcategory of those Institutional Psychopaths.
@@zebra3519 Include some hospitals.
Met police and beyond
I hope the lawyers who represented the Post Office in this farce are named and shamed!
They won't be. As BBB said in previous video, barristers are legally bound to treat each case individually on the available evidence. Any misgivings they may have don't come into it.
File your complaint about specific Members who handled these cases for the PO with the Solicitors Regulation Authority, the SRA.
@@davidspear9790 I fully accept that a barrister has to do their best to defend their client, however much they may dislike their client, or even suspect their client may be guilty. It's the jury's job to decide on that. And everyone is entitled to legal representation. And I also accept that if a barrister is lied to by their client, or a client conceals evidence from them, then they aren't magically able to know that. But...what if a barrister is a knowing party to concealing evidence from the defence? Is there no penalty for that either?
Ed Davey took a 275 grand bung from them to dismiss the claims as a govt minister.
Someone needs to make a Class Complaint to the SRA Solicitors Regulation Authority against ALL solicitors employed or engaged by the post office during this period. They all need to be investigated and if required disciplined by their professional body.
There are clearly criminal charges to come for Post Office employees, but we should not overlook the fact that the courts themselves failed. So many false convictions is unacceptable. Judicial heads need to roll.
Good point!
Judicial heads need to roll.
Into prison
Wasn't the Post Office Judge and jury?
@@AnyFuleKnoThat No, the P.O. was the prosecutor (instead of the CPS.)
@@davidblyth5495 No.
The issue here is one of disclosure of the evidence. The judge doesn't perform that role.
It's down to the barristers for both the prosecution and the defence. That is where it has gone wrong.
And also possibly any lies told by the Post Office to their barristers representing them.
All they needed to do was demand to see a copy of the defect register for the Horizon system. *EVERY* IT supplier developing a system maintains a defect register for the system they are developing, testing and in operation.
But barristers are not IT experts and probably did not know to ask for the defect register, let alone know what it is, what its purpose is and how it could be useful to them.
@@_Mentat ah ok thank you :)
It is disgusting how people were treated through all of this as well as some who didn't make it through, their poor families. People need to be locked up for this and the right people not innocent ones.
Jail for Vennels and her lackies!
And Fujitsu.
Why didn’t it occur to any official, judge or lawyer that it was rather strange that such a large number of Postmasters were being accused of fiddling the accounts?
Maybe, just maybe the main criteria to be a sub-poster is to have "itchy fingers"!
Even in the official inquiry, the Post Office is trying to obstruct it by refusing to present certain documents, so much so, last summer, the judge has had to tell them off and warn them about their conduct.
Their behaviour is absolutely appalling.
In which case, why has the Post Office not been raided by police, HMRC, bailiffs, etc?
@@markevans2294 Because the police don't interfere in inquiries being run by judges, unless the judge believes a crime has been committed and needs police involvement.
Judges can issue contempt of court proceedings (which can only occur if an offence has been committed) without police involvement.
Reading the directions made by the judge, he clearly informed the Post Office he has the means to take action to ensure the post office comply with their obligations. Accordingly, police involvement is not necessary.
Those responsible should be facing far longer prison sentances than the postmasters who were wrongly prosecuted
So they still made them GIVE them money even though they KNEW they didnt owe it WOW
Utterly, utterly appalling behaviour from the PO. I hope the senior leadership face charges of perverting the course of justice.
Surely those in the Post Office and Fujitsu who sort to prevent the truth about being presented in court should be prosecuted for fraud or perverting the course of justice.
..and in some cases, perjury.
Manslaughter.
The scale of this is terrible. Some went to prison, some were made bankrupt and their names tarred in their own communities as thieves. Four of them took their own lives.
There's a hell of a lot to answer for.
Not to even mention that ignoring everything else, that even being cleared, there are many who'd still be suspicious of them, for some reason or another...
Perverting the course of justice, fraud, perjury..... jail time.
And for the seven suicides... manslaughter charges.
We hear all the time that the POST OFFICE won’t do this or the POST OFFICE can’t do that. Who are these people in the POST OFFICE that are un -named and not being investigated. The constant failure of the POST OFFICE, again who was failing.
CEO Paula Vennels, CEO Tim Parker, Angela van den Bogard who was supposed to handle any complaints about Horizon, heavily critisied by the Judge during the first big case ....
COMPLAINTS must be lodged at the SRA concerning all Members who worked at the Post Office Legal Team for the duration. Investigate and punish.
if you are an officer of the company, e.g.a director, when you speak it is the company speaking. This is important in a case like this as it makes the Post Office liable for their actions civilly while they have to answer criminally.
This is perverting the course of justice, a criminal offence.
I am concerned about the possibility that if the Post Office were deceptive enough to hide evidence, what guarantees do we have that Fujitsu hasn't engaged in similar behaviour or has already done so? Considering that Fujitsu conveniently misplaced the visitor's book containing proof of Michael Rudkin's visit to their offices, where he discovered that Fujitsu had remote access to the Horizon system and was manipulating subpostmasters' figures, it suggests a capability for underhanded tactics.
Must have been a pure coincidence that, the next day, the PO Investigators turned up and accused him of stealing £44,000.
You have not been following closely. Fujitsu has also been lying to and misleading the courts. Initially, the Post Office was being lied to by Fujitsu, it took a while before the Post Office cottoned on that they were being lied to but at that point rather than blowing the whistle they joined in.
@@robertsprigge5535 Absolutely, what baffles me if we can see the coincidence, how come the courts didn't question anything when the same convictions against hundreds of postmasters kept coming through the door, I can't help but believe we are only just seeing the tip of the iceberg here, and this miscarriage of justice goes far deeper than is being brought to our attention. I heard somewhere that the Post Office are still challenging the quashing of convictions, I don't know if that is true.
@@robertsprigge5535 And given we now know Fujitsu had remote access ( which they denied)........
Worse, they have contracts with the NHS, the MoD, and others.....
Isn't it odd that so many people behind this truly awful injustice have titles and honours? Even IF i had a knighthood which I deserved, or had earned, I would hand it back. I have no wish to be to be in the same 'club' as the disgusting creatures that allowed this horror to happen, let alone sat on it for so many years while ordinary decent people suffered.
Try to prosecute any Royal and see where it gets you. When your King receives Harrods carrier bags stuffed with cash to launder through his charities, and a simple wave of a hand makes it all disappear. What price to join the "club" then.
@@mrsillywalk One member of royal family dare not travel to the USA, because the FBI would like a word about trafficking under-age girls.
@@jonwyatt3694
Andy's mummy paid off Virginia Giuffre.
It's sad that she took the hush money which made me think she was only after the cash?
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@@grissom2023 2001 when incriminating pictures taken.
Andrew's denials regarding her span a quarter of a century.
So after nearly 25 years, NO I don't think it was about cash.
@@jonwyatt3694But the US is not going to request extradition. They only extradited autistic children who hack their dodgy military programs and help to ruin the life of Julian Assange. As for Andy Pandy they will do nothing. They asked to interview him once but were told to piss off and being good boys, that is what they did.
I am totally and utterly appalled at this situation. How on earth can this happen today when we have so many checks and balances in all our systems. There must be consequences.
Well, the Vennells woman has decided to hand back her CBE. What enrages me is that this woman was an ordained priest. Justin Welby wanted her to be Bishop of London. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing. To paraphrase Elizabeth I's alleged words "God may forgive you, but no right-minded human being ever will".
Only the King can remove an honour on the advice of the PM after a report by the forfeiture committee, ( it will happen)she can't hand it back, and even if she tried it would get lost in the post.
After this Paula Vennels was stripped of her CBE by the forfeiture committee for "bringing the honours system into disrepute".
"Ordained Priest"! She must have been the only one who met the that thing in so-called heaven drabbed with long beard !Maybe she met the Devil on her way down to Earth!
I remember all these post masters hitting the press for being thieves. They were being labelled before any court cases. There were so many cases that even to a non techi lay person (myself), you knew it was the software and not the people. One or two crooks in the business are understandable but this many was fantasy built on denial.
I'm so glad they've finally been listened to and those responsible are beginning to be held to task.
The Government controls the press, trial by jury is a myth if the agenda is in the government's interest. Think back to how anything that was controversial was striken from the press over the decades and how all of it was in benefit to the banks, government and the bbc (government controlled news service funded publicly.)
Ditto. They didn't care people's lives were ruined, while they covered their own wrongdoings. Now been brought forward to distract from even worse wrongdoings. I don't think this has been re-investigated because they care, its to divert eyes from more crimes against the nation from within.
I hate that throughout all of this "the Post Office" is being blamed as if it were a legally culpable being. Individuals made decisions to commit this crime against the SPM's. Thos individuals need to be identified, charged, tried, jailed and have their names published to ensure they don't get to weasel back into positions of power over anything more significant than a single broom.
Exactly. Beautifully said. The individuals need to be identified, tried and punished. Not hide behind "the post office" label.
If the selection process for vetting & selecting sub-postmasters was so robust, yet all these 'untrustworthy' people were getting through, then surely they can evidence what they were doing to improve the process. If the problem wasn't with Horizon then it was with the people. No evidence of how they were trying to stop the wrong people being selected is evidence that they knew where the actual problem was.
This is what happens when the authorities become unanswerable!
and dwp are thinking of trying to grab the same powers as the postoffice have atm.
Thalidomide, BSE, Hillsborough, the blood scandal! What could possibly go wrong?@@blackbearish
I feel so ashamed and guilty for all the wrong being done here, but worried that many guilty Post Office management will get away without any penalty.
They would be extremely negligible to the scale of mass prosecutions that happened here.
That's the problem.there is no accountability anymore. All the senior management walk away with honours and gold plated pensions.
@@peterpheasey7352 Completely let off with perhaps a small rap over the knuckles and then with the usual message of "Lessons have been learned and as such these things will never happen again"...oh yes, just like air disasters, they will never happen again?
Imagine being a Solicitor and advising your client to plead guilty!! Our legal system is broken!!
Because said solicitor probably thinks your guilty and making a plea of not guilt and still found guilty gives you a tougher ride.
@@GlennPowell-ls3lg An here lies one of the many issue with the legal system! Solicitors are there to protect the BAR not the client. Shame on those Solicitors, I hope they get sued and dismissed as well!
@@Nunn_the_wiser Exactly.
*You assume those Sub-Postmasters has ACCESS to a Solicitor*
Many were bankrupted by this and couldn't afford one.
@@Farweasel I suspect they had no access to legal aid because that is paid for by the government.The government are hardly likely to pay for a solicitor that is attacking them.
Its amazing that no one thought that 900 people must be a mistake, it blows my mind
It happened to me a number of times, when I worked as a Post Office counter clerk. Both the Postmistress and myself would have to put our salaries in, to cover ‘shortfalls’ . I left after 8 years, it just wasn’t with the stress and worry, for a minimum wage. This whole shambolic and appalling situation is devastating.
That's terrible. Could you not join in? You should at the very least get your money back.
I’ll be honest, I want nothing more to do with that organisation. My wonderful Postmistress also left less than a year after myself. We lost our money, but we fared better than many, many others. The whole thing sickens me.
Are the Executives criminally liable? If found to obscure undermine disclosure leading to criminl convictions and financial censure?
This goes beyond a miscarriage into the order of known & mischievous prosecution to hide the failings of Fujitsu & the Post Office. It is appalling, yet this is modern day law in Britain where the rich get justice & the poor get law. So many are responsible in both companies & on the legal side. How many solicitors & barristers prosecuted cases & never questioned or knew that this was wrong? How many judges took the side of the PO & Fujitsu against SPMs without ever questioning the rights & wrongs? This is what the country has become, it was never good but now it's broken & corrupt & will not, without a seismic shift ever change.
To be fair to judges, if prosecution witnesses are lying in their teeth about computer software, and concealing evidence, how can a judge know?
With 6727 members of the NFSP (a number largely unchanged during the '00 to '15 period) and with 736 prosecutions, this was the post office saying that 10.9% of the staff they vetted and recruited were dishonest. Didn't anyone think to question these statistical aberrations at the time.
I've been watching what has been going on, even the Government talk today in Parliament. I feel so sorry for those people and even more for those who committed suicide due to what was going on. Some of these people who accused these postmasters need jail time sometime down the line.
Thanks to you and your colleague for reading the judgement and getting to lies and deceit
Worst thing about this, I worked with a lady who was arrested and sentenced to 7 years for theft. Her life then fell apart she was on drugs and homeless. I have tried to find her again but no luck. I believe 100% she didn’t do anything wrong. More complex than this but her life would of been different if it wasn’t for this!
How sad that poor woman
Nobody who was prosecuted for theft by The Post Office received a sentence as long as seven years - most of the sentences meted out were several months, not years - so pretty sure your anecdote doesn't relate to a prosecution by The Post Office. Posting it here is misleading.
@@auntiegc7880 please provide a link to your claim of lengths of prison sentences.
Note! There were other accusations and charges aside the one of 'theft' that you mention.
@@auntiegc7880
The comment didn't say the woman worked for the PO.
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@@auntiegc7880 I was a manager of a newsagent at the time with a post office within it. All I can do is tell you is what happened. She worked there for 15 years and in 2000 we had plain clothed police officers came in and arrested her she always claimed there must be something wrong with the system. We were told she had been stealing for months but what didn’t make sense is why after working there for 15 years why start. Maybe help she worked at Sir Harry’s Road post office Edgbaston, Birmingham her name is Kathrine ( I really can’t remember her last name for the life of me now!) if it comes to me I will add it. I am not trying to deceive anyone.
Speaking of lies and deceit: wait until you use their guaranteed next day delivery.
Remember the next time a big company or any government body big or small say 'trust me' tell them to sod off.
And I know what you are talking about here 😉😉
So who is still trying to cover things up. Guess they seem to think it can't get any worst !!
The whole of the board of directors of the Post Office, during the last 20 years, need to be investigated and held to account for their actions in perverting the course of justice and being the cause of the suicides of a number of falsely accused former Post Masters.
The former Chairman and CEO who were directly involved in both hiding documentation from the court and frustrating ongoing investigations.
So is anyone going to prison for all this?
This whole thing is awful. I have worked on implementing and supporting accounting software all my working life, did it not occur to The Post Office that there was no point in a sub-post master stealing money they knew they would have to pay back at the end of each day! Therefore the first thing any half-decent person would do would be to question the system integrity.
I just don't understand how alarm bells started ringing in the Post Office when so many people were convicted/being accused of stealing money? Did they honestly think there was a conspiracy amongst the sub-postmasters to defraud them? Did nobody think surely not this many people could be stealing from them?
This is why I think there's an element of malice in this whole case. But the question is...why?
75k compensation I heard is absolutely disgusting!
The fact that some appellants sought disclosure of ARQ data, albeit unsuccessfully, surely means that prosecuting barristers and the judges in those trials were aware of its existence. Why wouldn't that be enough for them to conclude that any conviction would be unsafe?
In the TV program after the case did the prosecution question the judge's findings to delay the outcome?
With what we now know this is disgraceful as they would have known the true evidence?
They need to cease to allow the PO to effectively run its own police and prosecutor powers.
Same for BBC who also runs its own police and prosecution for alleged TV licence offences
They might want to do a Dr David Kelly instead...
That should have stopped when they were made private.
My local postmaster recently quit, he had paid POL 'back' considerable shortfalls, this inquiry may have caused him PTS, I hope he can get some redress to salve the memory of his distress.
It's unbelievable to me that they didn't just check all the transactions to see if the computer had entered the same amount twice or something. You would think a good forensic accountant could have proved their innocence in a day or so of analysis of the financial data.
Yes but part of what BBB has covered in this video, is that that very actual evidence DID exist, and even though PostOfficeLiars were legally obligated to hand that information to defence counsel, they did not, and further they actually claimed in court that it did not exist at all. In some cases at least, it seems that PostOfficeLiars actually mis-led and lied to their own prosecuting Barristers, initially at least.
@@KiwiCatherineJemma We can't know what their Barristers said because of legal privilege but I find it hard to believe that every one of them didn't know the Post Office was lying to them. The Barristers can't say anything but I suspect the Post Office will try to pass the buck to some of them.
@@hairyaireyKnowing and proving are two different things.
A forensic accountant did investigate just as you say. That report was hidden and the forensic accountant was then taken off the job by the PO before they could investigate any further.
They did do that. That is what 3rd line support who had unrestricted and unaudited access to SPM accounts did. The problem was that if there was a further transaction at the PO before communications was re-established then the amounts would not match and the duplicate would be missed and the hapless SPM would be left with a false shortfall
Someone told me government are supposed to raise the compensation to £75,000 but people lost their houses, so how are they supposed to get them back🤔
No wonder Vennels handed back her CBE so quick , she knew she had been rumbled . Yet before that she and others knew the devastation they had caused including the 4 who sadly committed suicide . Could be the end of the Post office as we know it .
Not enough; don’t know what she could be charged with, but she (and all the people who were pushing this - including politicians) need serious prison time.
Yeah, only took her 4 years....
Understandable if it was sent by Royal Fail.
She should have handed it back when the 93 convictions were overturned. I think this decision is more to do with her forthcoming evidence to the public enquiry than anything else.
Did she ? Last I heard there was a petition going around demanding she be stripped of her CBE. But being the giant kokk that she is, she wasn't giving anything up voluntarily. (Maybe she's had a change of heart, that I haven't heard about?)
She can’t ’hand it back’. The only person who can do this (accept her CBE back from her) is the King.
Perjury, and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. Normally punished by prison sentences but it will be a miracle if that happens in this case.
"Pursue the interests of the Post Office" the managers made a fatal error, the post masters and local corner shop post office is the Real Post Office! What the company wanted to protect was Post office management!!
How many workers contacted their own local MP's to no avail? If any did, who were those MP's?
Fujitsu needs to have ALL British Government contracts cancelled and should never be able to bid for a British Government contract again.
I read Fujitsu warned Royal Mail as it was when this started, that the system wouldn't work if there was more than one terminal.
I like how people with no idea call for decent companies to be destroyed, seems smart. 🙄
Courts and legal system must also be accountable and some blame must lie with the judges who didnt ask simple questions that a blithering moran could clearly see issues with these original prosecutions and procedures. Qed the establishment was in on this....
My God, between the grooming gang coverup and the Post office scandal, this country is not covering itself in glory. The greed, rot and corruption runs deep.
All this prosecution happened in the courts. How did such unsafe prosecutions get through in such large numbers? Why should the public have any confidence in the justice system?
After watching the series on this awful miscarriage of justice, I felt compelled to sign the petition Ms Vennels to forfeit her CBE.
If it wasn’t for the doggedness of Mr Bates and the others depicted in the drama, the Post office and Fujitsu would have gotten away with their lies and other trickery to evade the truth.
I sincerely hope they are bought to task, and if possible prosecuted should the law allow it.
These people at the top of the post office have to be charged and locked up.
The judiciary will do almost anything not to admit it got things wrong - seen it time and time again!
Para's 14,15,16,17,18, are damning indictments of the Post Office and Fujitsu 's complicity in this disgraceful fiasco there must be serious legal repercussions.
Surely those dealing with the Post Office Year-end accounts found ALL the extra money the subpostmasters were forced to pay. How was that accounted for? Was that buried aswell?
Computer says it's been taken by the Sub Post master, they paid it back - accounts balance ...
All large institutions have what are called suspense accounts which are used to allow unexplained surpluses or loses to be included in accounts. Once included into a suspense account origins of the shortfalls or surpluses are effectively lost forever.
@@davidioanhedges accounts would balance but the bank rec will be out as there will be duplicate payments - the money went somewhere
@@daezeechayne462 At all places once "paid back" the accounts balanced.. due to the errors - it's fictional money effectively generated by Horizon in it's mistakes
@@annoyingbstard9407 And IIRC from the inquiry, those suspense accounts went up by what was it- a factor of 4x or 5x? I can't remember exactly. And nobody thought, 'hey, there is something awfully bad wrong here, we simply must get to the bottom of it'?
They should have their Royal Warrant removed and thus the protection of the crown!
This is such a huge, convoluted story. Would it be possible to collaborate with your learned friend Alan and work together on an in-depth analysis of the legal shennanigans that went on? I couldn't watch the ITV drama because I knew I'd get too upset and angry, but a legal analysis of it all would be invaluable.
I think it's possible to watch in small doses. I don't think anyone could sit through all that in one go.
@@hairyairey I couldn't. I've been following the saga for quite some time and the stories are absolutely heartbreaking. The magnitude of imcompetence, dishonesty and deliberate cover up by the PO is astounding. Criminal prosecutions should follow this saga, be it perjury, perverting the course of justice, fraud, false accounting... the list seems endless. I hope BBB does a vid on the potential criminal charges that could in theory be brought against those in the PO who knew what was going on and covered it up.
Who at the post office is going to serve time for this no lessons to be learned this time !!!
People saying there should be people locked up because of this. Let's get it right. NO ONE, the prosecution, those at the Post Office with authority are going down. They should but they won't. Apologies and CBE's sent back is as much justice and those poor innocents will get
Yep absolutely correct, knowing how the system works for the elite as in Chairmans, Directors, ect, they will more likely get away with it because of there status protects them against the law.
All we will probably see is one of them parliamentary select committee meetings where they bring people in and question them and then say you were naughty and then nothing else happens.
One of the evils of granting a body such as the Post Office authority to institute criminal proceedings.
British Justice is the best that money can buy, and if you haven’t the money, you get no Justice.
It think the simple question needs to be asked "who knew about this". Someone needs to take the fall for this. Like the postmasters on TV are saying they were suspended without pay until it was resolved.
Having dealt with ICL, later acquired by Fujitsu, I would be surprised to hear of any other of their customers describing their software as "robust and reliable". In my experience, much of ICL's software was riddled with "undocumented features".
That it seems the Post Office may not have adhered fully to the rules of disclosure is absolutely appalling and, if found to be the case, appropriate action must follow against any individual responsible.
This is just too shocking.
There were three reports that exposed the flaws with the Horizon system and concluded that it was unreliable and not fit for purpose. These reports were actively suppressed and hidden, and were not disclosed to the defence. They also trained staff in their SPM support unit to tell accused postmasters that they were the only one to be experiencing this issue, knowing that this was a lie.
Given that these support staff knew they were telling a lie, could they be procecuted?
@@robertsprigge5535 Hopefully they will go for the officers, and not for the footsoldiers. It's the people who ordered them to lie who should bear the main responsibility. But it's disturbing that none of the support staff had the integrity to go to their Union or their MP or to go public when they saw what was happening. Literally dozens of people were in on aspects of this conspiracy - makes you despair for the human race...
@@tullochgorum6323 I think one or two did tell on the quiet, but it's really tricky to be a whistleblower in public.
There's got to be some extreamly serious criminal wrongdoing here. What are the chences of the culprits being charged?
It’s to very upsetting that they refused to consider software error at any stage. This goes completely against what we know of the errors in technology.
They didn't refuse to consider it, they knew it was faulty. They just covered up the information, and then lied about it.
Dishonesty is the core of British society. When I was younger I believed the lies of government officials. Nowadays confronting a liar in a government position usually causes problems as they refuse to perform their duty.
A reasonable person could form the opinion that PO Lawyer Jarnail Singh is as slippery as a greased eel.
I don’t have any confidence that anyone will be held accountable for this
I assume only sub post offices were involved in this scandal. In each town, there is what I have understood to be a main post office. Did these have the same Horizon system? If they did, why no prosecution. If they didn't, what system did they use?
Apparently, glitches were caused by bad Internet connection, therefore less likely in town
I can't see anybody being held accountable for this. They'll all just continue after this wealthy and consequence free while the damage has already been done to the victims
The CEO of the Post Office BEFORE Paula Venells is the one that that needs to be held more accountable as they were part of the group that actually knew and did allow it continue for whatever real reason that “they” wanted to go through all of this. All Mrs Venells really did is “carry on the torch” from her PREDECESSORS.
And as the “Government” is/was the SOLE SHAREHOLDER then whomever is/was in the government for the oversight is also of need to be held accountable.
Adam Crozier !
Adam crozier now in charge at itv...who made the programme without naming the boss.How convinient.
Chairman at BT since December 2021@@christopherspick5111
@chrissonnenschein6634
"Carry on the torch" is hardly appropriate... Her employers offered the role, she accepted the role, trousered the cash and bonuses. She portrayed herself as a Christian. Justin Welby is obviously a poor judge of character too...
I always thought, and was taught as a child at Sunday School, that Christian people were caring, morally upright, always looked out for others... The Good Samaritan, turning the other cheek... a more appropriate last sentence would be:
All Ms Venells really did is "extinguish the flames of righteousness and truth" started by her PREDECESSORS.
She has already proved, herself, that reverence to a deity cannot change or influence someone's morality, their behaviour to others. She is morally bankrupt and as we have seen, a proven LIAR, obfuscator and one of the most prodigious selective amnesiacs ever employed by the Post Office; and they did employ a lot of them as Senior Management!!
Thank you Daniel for explaining the mess of the royal mail and Fujitsu .....
It was evil not to inform subpostmasters that there was a problem with the system. It seems like they were hoping to get money from innocent postmasters.
Why no one from the Post Office or Fujitsu is serving time is a disgrace!!
Dear Sir,
I think we shall discover that the Post Office knew of the problems with Horizon from the start, and yet prosecuted nonetheless, as your video makes clear. How could it be worse? Thank you for your videos and commentaries. I have known about this scandal about 12-13 years. How does it take so long, and how come those who were responsible for this deliberate injustice seem to be beyond examination and seeking immunity before testimony for the inquiry? It should be most interesting to know the full truth. Will we ever get it? In our world, I doubt it. I understood many years ago the software developers warned that the software was not yet ready but the Post Office adopted it nonetheless. This stinks.
David.
It was mr blairs government that instigated the installation of the software into the post office system. Would not be surprised to see if there were a few bulky pockets . after this contract was delivered
What a mess. Who is liable?
Post Office sign the project off and accepts the Fujitsu system after testing. To what extent is liability transferred after acceptance?
System support organisations liable and at what stage of an issue being identifed to resolved?
An can see layers of counter claims coming in the next few years. 😢