Pastor and Latter-day Saint HONESTLY Compare Doctrine
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Pastor Jeff and Latter-day Saint, Greg Matsen (CWIC Media), compare and contrast Latter-day Saint doctrines with mainstream Christian core doctrines.
Special thanks to Greg Matsen from CWIC Media for joining me: @CwicShow
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are Mormons Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this video, you might enjoy these videos I made exploring sacred Latter-day Saint locations: • Pastor Explores Mormon...
#LatterDaySaints #doctrine #mormonism
Really enjoyed this conversation with Greg! What other topics would be good for us to touch on in future conversations with each other?
Maybe something covering how LDS Christians (aka Mormons), Evangelicals and other Christian or even non-Christian sects like Muslims can work together to have a common goal, such as sustaining religious freedom. Might be cool if you can get an apostle or one of the 70 on your show. Or even the Presiding Bishop of the Church.
explore the doctrine and covenance. this is direct revelation from God to Joseph smith. on the establishment of the church. when he had questions, god gave him the answers.
How exactly Christ atoned for spiritual death in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Hi Pastor Jeff. Thanks for another great video! I enjoy your devotional videos and your reaction videos!
I would like to see a video about how someone can be saved.
Do we need to believe in sola scriptura to be saved? Do we need to have an accurate understanding of God's divine nature to be saved? Do we need to continue to choose Jesus for the rest of our lives or is once enough? Can we be saved if we believe that baptism is necessary for salvation? In short, can I as a believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be saved or would I have to renounce my covenants?
@@valeried7210 that is a wonderfull question. i hope i can answer this adaquately.
Christ atoned for our sins, when he took upon himself ALL the sins of EVERYONE those who ever lived upon this Earth or will be upon this earth.
He felt our sins, the affect it had upon him was great. to the point of Bleeding from every pore. this cause the greatest of all of Gods children to suffer. he accepted this because it was the will of the father. that there could be a righteous judgement. he did this so he could redeem us from our inperfections. that our sins could be washed clean through his blood. otherwise we were doomed to never see God or be in his presence. for God cannot abide any degree of sin.
but if we have faith in him unto repentence we might have forgiveness for them. and by Christ and his grace progress. untill we become clean and have the attrubutes required to remain spotless in this earth life. then inheriting the Glory of our Father in Heaven.
My father is a protestant. My mother is a mormon. There was a lot of tension and pain in my home over religion. I was then called to the Bible Belt on my mission. With every ounce of courage in me I sought to bring peace and understanding to every person that I met, believing that the greatest gift I could give was honor. After a long day, and a pastor shaming and condemning me, telling me I was going to Hell, (after I had peaceably listened to the sermon he gave at the old folks home we served in, ironically seeking to honor him), I asked God if He would someday send a pastor to my door, bringing an equal level of peaceable honor to me as I had brought to that pastor that day though he did not see it, and to many others there in florida for 18 months. It has been 10 years. Well Pastor Jeff, the saratoga springs temple is right up the street from me, and the building you attended church in in St. Louis was where my singles ward met when I was in St. Louis for work in 2016, while the fallout from Ferguson was still being discussed. St. Louis was my home away from home. I believe you are that pastor, bringing honor to my door. And I thank you for the gift. Know that none of the genuine respect you give is wasted, and that it means a lot.
Marisa, thank you for your wonderful testimony! 😇
Beautiful ❤
Love it!! Thank you for sharing this ❤️
Marisa, good description of your faith. Maybe the pastor who said you were going to hell should have had more understanding about your church's beliefs, so he could have calmly explained the differences.
You and I believe in different Gods. We believe in a different Jesus Christ. We agree somewhat about the Holy Spirit, but we would disagree on who he actually is.
So, if he had that understanding maybe he could have had more love and grace to present it to you differently.
@@johnwolfram2689 Just a fan of fighting criticism with curiosity, Sir. ❤
It’s refreshing to listen to an honest and civil conversation about differing views without bashing the others beliefs. Hard to find nowadays.
Loved it . I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint, and understand the cross slightly differently if I am understanding Gregg. It was all part of the atonement until the Saviour said it is finished, I believe he suffered for our sins on the cross as well because th father had to withdraw and let him complete the atonement alone
This is great. Thanks for the civil conversation. One question: In your description of the true Church of Christ, it seems Latter-day-Saints fit directly into that as well. Is that inaccurate?
Freemasonry & its indispensable role in shaping Mormon doctrine & practice.
Greg is a great representative of our faith. Thanks for having him on, Jeff. And thanks for promoting conversation over contention.
This is by far the BEST and most enjoyable conversation examining the differences between our two belief systems.. I was raised a Baptist and converted to the LDS at age 18 51 years ago. Over the years I’ve brought my understanding of mainstream Christian doctrine as I was taught and as I’ve discussed it over the years with Evangelical friends.
The two of you by far had the most revealing conversation that honestly discussed the very differences I’ve summed up in my years… and your respectful, dignified, loving manner that you guys exchanged the those items was very touching… I felt the Spirit with both of you as I’m sure everyone of us who love the Savior felt it.
You could not have chosen a more precise list to discuss… I think that you were able to do that because of your exhaustive efforts to understand the differences with love, devotion, and respect… My hat is off to both of you and to you Pastor Jeff for stepping forward with such courage to begin this journey… You have a lot of Latter-day Saints praying for you and your ministry… because we have faith you are a chosen bridge builder in a time that the Lord has need to martial all of His believers together for the events that are headed our way…
You have given substance to the belief that as follows of Jesus Christ, we are brothers and sisters in Jesus…. God bless your work.. And thanks for having chosen such a qualified representative of our faith…
Tom. You echo (more eloquently than I could ever express) my exact sentiments on this exchange of these two wonderful men.
You stated that Jeff has given substance to the belief that as followers of Jesus Christ, we are brothers and sisters in Jesus.
This is not a troll question, but if you and I believe in a different God, and a different Jesus, and a different atonement for sin (I reference paying for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane instead of on the cross), how is it that we can be brothers and sisters in Christ? Which Christ? The one LDS teaches or the one Isaiah 43:10 teaches?
John. There no LDS Christ. There is no Catholic Christ. There is no Protestant Christ. There is only Jesus Christ. There is a misnomer about Christ paying for our sins in Gethsemane. I frankly have only heard that from detractors from the LDS Church as a point of contention. As an active LDS member of several decades, I have never encountered what you claim as doctrine. The process of paying for our sins by Jesus Christ may have (or may not have) begun in the Garden of Gethsemane. Most certainly Christ paid for our sins on the cross of which Gethsemane was certainly part of. Does it really matter? Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior had the power to resurrect on the third day after His death and holds the power of atonement. Can we agree on that?
This is splitting hairs. You are getting your information from biased sources. You are picking unnecessary fights with those of us who are Christian. Just maybe not your flavor of Christian.
@@johnwolfram2689 Prefacing your comment with "this is not a troll question" is a lot like the classic preface "not to be racist but..." We all know that the next thing said after is going to be racist. That is indeed a troll question.
For that reason, I have to agree with Randy on this... you are certainly splitting hairs and hoping for confrontation. We believe in the same Christ and we love and respect all Christians regardless of variations in doctrine or scriptural interpretation. We would appreciate an equal amount of respect.
@@randylclark4665 answer this one question then. Isaiah 43:10. If there is no God formed before Christ, and no God formed after, do we serve the same Jesus according to LDS doctrine that Jesus has a Heavenly Father who himself is supposed to be an exalted man according to your prophet Joseph Smith?
Wow! Greg Matsen, A+ at articulating structured beliefs from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Yes, you are a great representative of Christ and members of His Church and I'm always impressed with how you explain our beliefs so well!!!
Pastor Jeff, you really live up to "fight criticism with curiosity." I love it, and thank you!
But it takes more than just curiosity if one is actively seeking truth.
If the world could communicate like the two of you, with less ego and less judgement we would be so much better off. So impressive. This makes me want to improve my communication and judgement.
This was the most beautiful display of love and support for both religious groups. As a strong LDS member I enjoyed watching this. Good job!
Thank you”PEACEMAKERS”…The world would be a better place to live, in and outside of religion if ALL conversations could be civil and clear as this.🙏🏼❤️🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
I enjoyed this dialogue. While I am not LDS, I like President Nelson's message of April 2023 "Peacemakers Needed".
27:21 it is important to note that when we say “true church”, we don’t believe all those Christians who were during the middle ages are just lost in hell. We believe they will be judged on their works as it says in the Bible, but knowing the truth in their spirit they can accept the truth after this life, and then ordinances who others do on behalf of them will count. HOW MERCIFUL IS OUR GOD! 💟🙏 Great are His mercies and plain are His ways!
As a Latter-day Saint....I love love love this exchange!!! Thank you, Pastor Jeff and Greg!! Much love and respect from Cleveland, Tennessee ❤
Wonderful discussion. I think that the one thing we as LDS don’t make clear enough is that we believe that it is only through what Christ did for us that we are saved. The ordinances and covenants are indications and commitments we must make to fully give our will to God. God, giving us our agency will always protect that gift and we must show it is us with our whole heart that desires to make those commitments.
Nothing we actually do saves us. That was done by Christ. But, if we don’t desire to live in the manner he exemplified, we can make that choice.
In my heart, I want to follow him because I know that is the only way I can feel happy and peaceful. I help others, not because I think I need to earn my salvation but because I love God and if service or good works need to be done that I can do, something inside me just feels compelled to take action. If I didn’t live that way, I would question my love of my Savior. I think people who love God try their best to follow his example. None of the things we do will save us though.
It is so inspiring to hear both Greg and Jeff. I love the simplicity of how they lay out the differences in our beliefs in a respectful way. Listening to Jeff's videos has given me so much respect for all Christian denominations and encourages me to seek Truth and become a better person. Thank you so much, Jeff and Greg!
This is one of the best explanations give by both sides videos I’ve ever seen! And I’m excited to share it when others ask me these questions . Thanks to both of you
For those who might want to review a particular topic without having to spend time hunting:
2:28 Bibliology (topic: the Bible)
5:50 Theology Proper (topic: God)
11:23 Anthropology (topic: mankind)
14:46 Christology (topic: Jesus Christ)
23:30 Ecclesiology (topic: the Church)
32:35 Eschatology (topic: end times)
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence. They were not able to have children. Eve realized they could not stay in that state and also fulfill the greater commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth". Her disobedience was a transgression (as opposed to a sin) because she was choosing to obey a higher law no matter the pain or discomfort. She still had to suffer the consequences of her choice by being cast out of God's presence and having to work by the swear of her face to eat bread. She still had to repent and accept Jesus as her Savior. But no one could come to earth until she stepped up and made that sacrifice.
Adam saw the importance of her logic, or he would not have joined her in disobeying by eating the fruit.
Thanks, time stamps make it easier to check topics.
I have been comparing it to the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers. Its clear that most LDS are unaware of them.
I have had some great conversations with missionaries. They did not know that the Apostolic Churches were taught much closer to Messianic Jewish/Evangelical core doctrine than any of the Restoration Christianity groups like the LDS, SDA, JW, or Christian Science churches.
From a historical perspective the restorationist faiths are strictly American and not based on the ancient land or faith.
I do not say this in a disrespectful way but simply in a historical evidentiary way. It is what reality dictates. But people are free to believe as they want.
Gor me evidence is more important than feeling a spiritual "witness" like Muslims or Latter Day Saints. I felt the same with the Quran, Baghavad Gita, and the Book of Mormon. Same spirit witness.
Unlike the Tanakh and the New Testament. They are by far superior and bear the literary, historical, DNA, and spiritual witness of authenticity.
@@Blue12Dawn I'm curious as to what difference it makes that Adam and Eve "transgressed" rather than "sinned." In Romans 5:12-21 Paul talks about how through Adam *sin* entered the world whereas through Jesus Christ the gift of grace abounded to many. Paul calls Adam’s action a sin (the word is mentioned 10 times in the passage), a transgression, and an offence. Also, 1 Timothy 2:14 says that Eve was deceived but Adam wasn’t, implying that he sinned with his eyes wide open. Finally, if what you are saying is true, then it seems God tempted them as much as Satan did (in that he gave them no path to righteousness), but the James 1:14 says that God never tempts any man. So maybe you can see that someone who tries to follow the Bible has a hard time with the LDS version of the Fall. So am I misunderstanding your position, or do you feel the Bible is wrong, or do you have a different interpretation of the Bible?
@@BellDavidE The Bible reads the same, but we believe that many precious truths have been removed, either by man’s fallible hand or on purpose to bend the Word of God for their own purpose
I love listening to Jeff talking to Greg and others about differences in belief. It really helps me to learn. Thank you so much guys👍💖💖
LDS are taught that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there is truth in the world it is part of our belief. We don't feel us vs them when thinking about the Gentile world.
When Jesus comes again, LDS and Evangelicals will run to him. Building this bridge feels right. Thanks Pastor Jeff.
... and Catholic and Orthodox
Right!
Sadly, LDS will not be running toward Him. No mainstream orthodox Christian, I know or heard of, would say LDS are a part of the body of Christ
@@CCiPencil I think if you spent significant time around, devout LDS people, your paradigm would radically change
@@johnfaris5376 or you could just read what the Bible says and compare it to what the LDS teaches.
I appreciated how civil and respectful this discussion was. I didn’t see any animosity towards each others beliefs or even trying to convince the other person or the viewer. Just a pleasant informative discussion comparing and contrasting the differences in tenets. Well done.
This conversation is amazing. I know some LDS church members, but none that could speak to the theology of the church (as I know many mainstream Christians who can’t either). Dennis Prager always talks about clarity when discussing differences rather than winning over the other person. This is a great example of this in practice. Oh if more of us could do this with each other even in matters other than religion.
The Cross is His public sacrifice for me, the Garden is His personal sacrifice WITH me.
Love this
Jesus being truly human and truly God at the same time mean "with" saved people as the only mediator, sacrifice, high priest, Savior, King, and more.
What beautiful dialogue. I’ve waited my whole life to link arms with my Christian brothers and sisters, putting our differences aside, in friendship and Christian love. As we await His return to earth we are coming together. Amazing thank you brothers great video
The statement of LDS belief is in The Articles of Faith. All inquirers should read it.
Jeff, this was a lot of fun! Dialogue is always the ideal approach. Looking forward to more!
@@thebenplatt there is a place for that and many take that path. I don’t focus on it.
@@thebenplatt Contending for the faith does not imply contention. Contention polarises and obscures truth, it drowns out the Spirit. The scriptures provide various examples of righteous contending for the faith. This is one example of respectfully seeking understanding, and it is wonderful.
@@thebenplatt Contention is of the adversary. It is not the way The Church of Jesus Christ does things.
@@thebenplatt I’m happy to contend for the faith. I do it everyday. But I try not to go after individuals, but truths and principles.
@@thebenplatt Christians should be inviting people to believe in Christ, not tear down those who already do.
I really enjoyed this. I see no contention or condemnation. Only mutual respect and even a mutual appreciation for each other. Two friends explaining and appreciating each others beliefs that don’t always align with a genuine interest.
What a beautiful job you are doing here, Jeff. Thank you for showing all of us that there is no need for contention when there are disagreements in beliefs and doctrine. I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I enjoyed this discussion a lot. I'll continue to watch your videos. God bless you in your efforts to bring Christians together in our common goal to become better disciples of our Savior Jesus Christ.
What an incredibly respectful conversation. It wouldn’t surprise me if before filming these two gentleman said something along the lines of “you are my friend. It doesn’t matter what you say, I will respect your opinion.” So refreshing to see.
I'm so happy that a RUclipsr teaches about us and doesn't insult or lie about us. Actually, You are the only one I could find.
I totally agree!!! As a member of the church I actually get curious about what other people have to say about us. This channel is the only one that I could find that says kind things about our religion.
I’m not Mormon and I don’t accept the Book of Mormon but I find myself agreeing with them on scripture alone which I find to be ridiculous. As if God is limited to one book.
It's great to see that not if our faith on here watching these! I've been a little surprised how few there seem to be considering the amount of fascination many outside the Church have with us.
The bible itself is a collection of books. 😊
I believe in scripture alone for leading the masses. In my own life I look to the Holy Spirit of course. But I also don't seek revelation for mysteries already revealed in scripture.
@@billmartin3561 Well, on that point you’ll find some disagreement. The word Bible means many books and the King James Version of the Bible HAS 66 books and most all Protestant churches and LDS church accept this version with it’s number of books. However, the Catholic’s version has 7 additional books totaling 73.
There are other Biblical or related writings (ie the 14 books of the Apocrypha)not forming the accepted canon of Biblical scripture. But, the Bible isn’t all that God has said and had recorded. The Bible is the word of God and the New Testament is a record of the Jews generally and the Book of Mormon is the word of God, generally of the tribe of Joesph with several exceptions but, it differs a lot with the fact it is based in Ancient America. I will end with that informing iteration worth noting.
@@Wasatch_Sasquatch why wasn't the Book of Mormon reviewed by scholars and academics? God has allowed all other ancient scriptural manuscripts to be reviewed by a community.. Why was the Book of Mormon only handled by Joseph Smith (and select witnesses)? I don't understand it it seems inconsistent with the framework by which we've received all other scripture.
Loved this! I’m a convert of 30 years to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. I was raised Catholic but we didn’t go often so I really had no knowledge or relationship with Jesus Christ. After an ex boyfriend committed suicide in my mid 20’ s I went on a several year quest to understand the meaning of life. My evangelical friends kept telling me my ex boyfriend was lost forever since he hadn’t been “saved” in Jesus Christ. That didn’t make sense to me. If that was true then I certainly wasn’t interested in their church or beliefs. I went to a couple of popular evangelical churches in Southern California for about 6 months. Everyone was nice and church was pretty fun but nothing clicked for me.
I came upon the LDS church by happenstance but I started discussions and delved into a year long deep dive of research and church attendance before deciding to join the LDS church. I had a couple of sacred spiritual experiences that confirmed my decision. It changed my life forever and I have never looked back. I have the strongest testimony of my faith and the true principles I’ve learned and lived of the gospel.
This was a really pleasant conversation to listen to. It’s not often you hear a mainstream Christian l, even a Pastor be so respectful and kind about the doctrine we believe in. I often hear contentious words and blasting of our beliefs but in 30 years I’ve never heard any LDS person I’ve been associated with blast other faiths let alone other Christian churches. It’s always baffled me. This was refreshing. ❤
Interesting educational conversation. It’s helping me understand the perspectives of my evangelical brothers and sisters better. Thank you!
Thank you for being respectful on both sides of the conversation. Respect is the key to unlocking doors to friendships.
This was a good conversation. Thank you, Greg, for representing the doctrines of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ so beautifully. And thank you, Jeff, for being a friend.
Perfect example of what it looks like to “agree to disagree”. Refreshing to see.
I think a big miss here is the distinction between salvation and exaltation. I would hate for any of our Protestant, Catholic or Evangelical brothers and sister to feel that we Latter-Day-Saints don’t believe they are “saved” unless they go through the LDS ordinances.
We believe all are Saved by the Grace of Christ regardless of denomination. “Exaltation” is a separate doctoring that focuses on the “progression” referenced in this video. Exaltation does require LDS ordinances.
Important distinction. Thank you for pointing that out.
such a healthy conversation to have. you are both class acts.
- Enjoyed the conversation.
- Appreciate Jeff for his kindness and respect towards Latter Day Saints.
- It strikes me in this video, how complicated Protestant Christianity is.
- So grateful for the simplicity of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
@@thebenplatt Is baptism essential to salvation?. Various Protestants will say yes, no, or maybe. One thing I notice is the heavy reliance on the teachings of Paul by many protestants to justify their doctrines. The Gospels teach a much plainer doctrine than Paul. Even Peter said many of Paul’s teachings were hard to understand. I agree with Peter on that. One of many examples is Godhead Vs Trinity. Godhead is easy while Trinity is unintelligible. The Book of Mormon writers deliberately make the gospel of Christ more plain than the writing of the Jews so it cannot be misunderstood. The Bible is super complicated and obviously very misunderstood. There is a reason why there are so many Protestant sects - the complexity and variety of Protestant interpretation of the Bible. By it’s nature the gospel is plain enough for a child to understand while also having endless depth. Whether Protestant or Latter Day Saint, the level or complexity we focus on is our choice.
The baptism point was a good example. He said that certain commandments were optional. The words “Commandments” and “Optional” looks like an oxymoron to me.
Jeff lumps all non Latter Day Saint Christians into one group and speaks on their behalf as though they are unified in their beliefs. I have met or know Protestants who’s beliefs are quite different than Jeff’s.
I think Jeff does a better job of explaining his beliefs than other Protestants that I know, but those are his beliefs and I struggle to find a unified core belief system within the group that he speaks for.
If all the churches teach different doctrines, then which one is right? Is it Jeff’s specific congregation that is right or some other one?
Hard for me to wrap my mind around.
I think that's why he chose the six main doctrines. They do unify the protestant religions. The splintering gets exponential once the denominations move past those cores. Until Pastor Jeff, I would have added an addional unifying doctrine: hating and distrusting mormons and their church.
This is fascinating… one of my best friends is nondenominational and we agree on so much that I have often wondered what differences are actually there with other types of Christians. Thanks for this video!
Thank you so much for this. This was so incredibly insightful and helpful! I have watched you both separately (I am LDS) and was super excited to see you discussing together!
I am so glad that you two are doing this interview!!!! I know with my whole heart that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s church and I’ve been watching Paster Jeff’s journey and I will continue to enjoy watching!
@Linda Grace Cox Thanks ... let's journey on!
Great conversation. Very helpful to many to hear the similarities and differences without getting into technical debate
When I was in my early twenties I had a roommate who was a born-again Christian. We were roommates for over two years. I loved him like a brother. Even though we had some different beliefs we both believed in our Savior Jesus Christ. Clyde used to go to the jail and minister to the people in jail. We prayed together, we commiserated with each other when we both had a hard day. Clyde is now a Pastor over a church in Florida. Just because our beliefs are a little different we still loved each other like brothers. Clyde was a person of color and I am Caucasian. Where we lived was a very hard place and there were some wicked people there who tried to persecute us.
I love that you can have a conversation and discuss beliefs without contention.
19:00 Hi Jeff! I would like to share these references from Church resources that speak on how the Garden of Eden and the cross of Calvary are important to Latter-day Saints. It seems to me that we as Latter-day Saints ought to believe that both places play integral parts on Christ’s atonement but an unintentional focus on what happened on the Garden of Eden has been made by some over the years which affected the understanding of the importance of both the Garden and the Cross. Latter-day prophets speak on both the importance of these places. Here are some quotations and resources that may help:
“Jesus’s atoning sacrifice TOOK PLACE IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE AND ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people…. The Savior continued to suffer for our sins when He allowed Himself to be crucified-“lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world” (1 Nephi 11:33). On the cross, He allowed Himself to die. His body was then laid in a tomb until He was resurrected and became “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). Through His death and Resurrection, He overcame physical death for us all.”
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/atonement-of-jesus-christ
“Some might assume, for example, that we believe Christ’s death on the cross covered only the effects of physical death and that his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane covered only the effects of spiritual death. But the scriptures make it clear that Christ’s agony in the garden and his suffering and death on the cross were all integral parts of the atoning sacrifice.”
- Gerald N. Lund www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1990/01/the-fall-of-man-and-his-redemption?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR1F-rdcJksvmohLekB2MVpmypFBo9ISjRixvJxMNjlNTAHlEFsjvg43_so
rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-second-nephi-doctrinal-structure/fall-man-and-his-redemption
open.spotify.com/episode/2xBo7y6gkWYkDI1drbweXq?si=Tm8ylSwXTniTn2zejDgbtw
Thanks for your comment. We discussed the Atonement last week that the Atonement was Gethsemane, Golgatha, and the Resurrection.
Great, my testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church in these latter-days is strong in these truths and I'm working to make it stronger every day. We are so blessed!
Great job Greg of representing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And thank you Jeff for being such a good and kind person.
nice to hear a discussion and not an argument. Thanks
With my limited knowledge and study of the scriptures about the atonement I originally thought that the most agonizing part of the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane. Elder Talmage said that the agony in Gethsemane returned and intensified upon the cross. Elder Gerald Lund said it is a doctrinal error to bifurcate the atonement. We cannot just talk about Gethsemane, or just the cross, but the whole event and everything in between including, as Isaiah said, the stripes that He bore is part and parcel of the complete and the eternal atonement of Jesus Christ. Elder Maxwell so eloquently referred to the whole process of the atonement of Jesus Christ, from Gethsemane to the cross, as the “awful arithmetic of the atonement.” So much to still learn and try to comprehend, in my finite mind, for such a glorious and infinite act of love; and how I love my Savior Jesus Christ for it.
Great video Greg and Jeff! Perfect kind of conversation to have 💟🙏 I would say that it is important to understand that our understanding of other religions is that they are all part of God’s design. By scattering seeds he gathered them in full again. Some people need truth presented a certain way before they can progress, so many religions have been inspired (though we do believe not all have authority) to help God’s children rise above the natural man. The important thing is that they do what the Spirit of the Lord prompts them to do.
And the rest of Christianity does not believe that the LDS church has no real authority
It sounds like you are a Latter-day Saint. Where do you find "other religions ... are all part of God’s design" as Church doctrine? This sounds like more of an opinion rather than a teaching of the Church.
I'm LDS, and while I believe that other churches are good & help people follow God in good ways, I wouldn't specifically say that it's the plan of God to have different churches. He knew we would have many churches because of the Apostasy & the choices people make. And there were great people that prepared the way for the Restoration who were inspired by God. But I don't think that's the same as saying it's his plan to have several disagreeing churches. God is able to use imperfect things, situations, & people to bring about good.
@@miriamrobarts Jesus Christ already established a Church and it's the Catholic Church. It's been in existence for 1,990 years. Founded by Jesus Christ.
@Miriam Robarts Excellent point. I don't think that it was ever part of God's plan to have many churches. Our Heavenly Father teaches the truth clearly and plainly. He always has. It is the enemy of us all who confuses and divides. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that there are, in truth, only 2 churches on the earth.
@@miriamrobarts Galatians 1:14 and James 1:27 are a few examples. Paul spoke of it profiting him to be a Jew above other religions. But also just personal experience with the stories in the scriptures. God takes people through a process and looks for His lost coin UNTIL He finds it.
Another example would be Adam and eve. God absolutely planned to put them in the garden because he knew they would mess up. We can only learn from our mistakes. That’s the only way we develop agency.
Perhaps it is not so much the plan, but just what was known before hand, what would happen . Jesus was always the plan. He would restore the things that got scattered. The house of Israel, reunited after thousands of years of struggles
If Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit, there would have been no mankind. Just Adam and Eve. They needed to grow and develop and have children. Eve partaking of the fruit was a blessing to all of us. :-)
Nice discussion between Jeff and Greg. I think you really do a good job of explaining and respecting each others position.
Thank you for doing these videos. It’s helped me learn so much and challenges me to consider my beliefs more deeply. These videos have strengthened my testimony and softened my heart in many ways. ❤
It’s nice to see someone listen instead of trying to figure out where to land the next blow.
Amen
Beautiful exchange of contrasting and shared beliefs. Articulate, thoughtful, and informative.
Pastor Jeff, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I have the deepest love and respect for your tender and kind approach to finding and celebrating the truths that we passionately share. I so hope that every person who calls themselves "Christian" can someday be filled with the Holy Spirit of truth that you have including me. You are more than just a "Christian", you are truly "Christ-like". These should be one and the same however, "we Christians" have made Christianity a competition rather than a loving conversation where we seek to understand and "come to a unity of the faith". Thank you sincerely for your effort and sacrifice.
What an amazing conversation that is intentionally focused on exploring differences solely for the purpose of understanding- not convincing- the other. Imagine a world where all dialogue happened this way!
You guys are doing great work! Ultimately I believe that we will all come to a unity of the faith and be one in the body of Christ as the events up to and including His return become closer and closer.
Im so grateful for the charitable listening rather than so many other conversations I've seen else where that get bogged down in semantics.
Jeff, this discussion is just the tip of the iceberg. More of these would be great. Am looking forward also on your take of the BoM series. More evangelicals should be here to learn.
God bless you both for your amazing understanding and simple explanations. As a Latter-day Saint who feels that I understand our beliefs well, I don't think I could have explained those core doctrines as well or simply or beautifully! Thank you!
Also, thank you pastor Jeff for your explanations of mainstream Christian understanding and belief. It is beautiful. So much of what we believe is the same or so similar.
I love how you both sat together and shared Jesus with us all. The important thing is John 3:16. We all believe that to be true.
Hi Juanita. Due to the marked difference that Latter-day Saints maintain between "everlasting life" and "eternal life," belief itself isn't even necessary (since ALL will receive everlasting life/resurrection). In turn, this otherwise-beloved verse becomes rather meaningless. I hope I'm making sense.
Greg is one of the few public figures I trust to represent my faith.
@Talmage Richardson Great to hear! I'm learning a lot from him. Great guy!
Great discussion! Where I live I am surronded by Evangelicals. This really helps me in understanding them.
I loved your conversation! Both of you are so well spoken. Thanks!
I really enjoyed this discussion of the similarities and differences between evangelical and latter-day saint doctrine. You both did a wonderful job. ❤️ I think that part of the reason why we don't consider the Bible to be the only necessary and all sufficient word of God is because every word should be established from two or three witnesses. Matthew 18:16 "but if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." It's like you stated, Pastor Jeff. If someone is in error, you said that you would show him/her how the Bible says that he/she is in error. However, what if he will not hear you? You need collaborating witnesses to strengthen your position. 2 Nephi 29:8 echoes this idea. "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together, the testimony of the two nations shall run together also."
Another Mormon misinterpretation. Matthew 18:16 is about a brother living in sin so it says to go talk to them and if they don’t listen take two or three witnesses with you. Mormons do not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Bible is infallible. Your soul is at stake. Repent and leave LDS corruption.
@Patrick Lyons thank you for the warning. I'm assuming that you do it out of love. I am very confident that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints is the Lord's church, and I do not fear for my soul.
@@gwengold8154 by your Scripture my church is the church of the devil and the whore of the earth. We shall see in the end Gwen. We shall see.
I look forward to other discussions you guys might have together, deeper in to those “secondary doctrines” as you call it, as long as it could remain respectful, civil, and reverent, like this was. Thank you both so much for doing this. This is a good thing for all followers of Christ.
The "secondary" doctrines are those that mainstream Christians differ on between themselves, yet without breaking fellowship (as compared with these primary doctrines on which they remain united).
Best part is when Jeff adds bits of LDS theology that he thinks Greg has missed and he's right on the mark. It's getting so that he knows our theology as well or better than we do! Respect man.
Can’t wait for the conversation about the garden!!
As Latter-day Saints, our understanding of the Savior's passion reveals the core of who we are as Christians.
You and I undoubtedly agree that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God"(1 Peter 3:18). More specifically, "he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows ... he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him ... and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all"(Isaiah 53:3-6). As Latter-day Saints, we believe that Jesus literally felt our every grief, our every sorrow, and our every iniquity. Isaiah's wording calls to mind the scapegoat ritual of the Mosaic law: "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat ... And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited"(Leviticus 16:21-22). I imagine Aaron spending a great deal of time on each Day of Atonement enumerating a very long and specific list of recent offenses from specific offenders in his prayer over the scapegoat. The scapegoat then bears these iniquities "unto a land not inhabited", just as the Savior carried our sins into death. As with the scapegoat, Jesus Christ atoned for each individual person, feeling the weight and enduring the consequences of each individual sin. In this context, we can more fully understand Isaiah's prophecy: "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed"(Isaiah 53:10). In other words, during the course of His final passion, Jesus Christ saw the face of every person, who would ever receive His grace.
Naturally, we might assume that this suffering for the sins and sorrows of each individual person began in the Garden of Gethsemane, where - as you described so eloquently - "Jesus is demonstrating ... the anguish that He, as 100% man, was experiencing in that moment"(21:05). Luke tells us that in this, His moment of anguish and doubt, "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground"(Luke 22:44). In The Book of Mormon, King Benjamin offers one detail that opens a world of insight into the symbolism of Christ's experience there: "for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people"(Mosiah 3:7). During Christ's experience in Gethsemane - literally "the olive-press" - He bled from every pore, as though the weight of our sins was crushing Him like an olive, forcing out the oil or blood. Perhaps, the visual from a distance would have more closely resembled the crushing of a grape, thus leading Isaiah to prophesy of Him, "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me ... and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment"(Isaiah 63:3). This prophecy, at least in part, found its literal fulfillment in the image of the blood-stained Son of God, as He pled with His sleeping disciples to watch with Him in His darkest hour. Moses offered us a powerful type of this seminal moment in the Savior's life, when he "lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river ... and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood"(Exodus 7:20). All of the waters of every river of Egypt turned to blood, just as the water of Christ's sweat turned to blood in Gethsemane, emanating from every pore. The Egyptians' experience with rivers of blood lasted for seven days (Exodus 7:25). Whenever I see "three days" in the Old Testament, I think of the Savior's body in the tomb between death and resurrection. Whenever I see "seven days" in the Old Testament, I think of God's seven-day process of creation. Likewise, the spiritual work of Christ's atoning sacrifice, beginning with water turned to blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, covered all of creation - or, in the words of Nephi's brother, Jacob, "he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam"(2 Nephi 9:21). Moses's type returns in Israel's final deliverance from Egypt, as the Red Sea closes upon every wicked soul, who sought to hold God's people in bondage, again effectively turning water into blood. Israel's deliverance from Egypt, in the context of King Benjamin's revelation that Christ bled from every pore, helps me understand how completely Christ has delivered me from the bondage of sin and death, beginning with His excruciating experience in Gethsemane, as He bore the weight of the sin and pain of every human soul, one by one.
While Latter-day Saints do believe that Christ's suffering for the sins of all mankind began in Gethsemane, His victory over spiritual death encompasses every aspect of His passion, from Gethsemane to Resurrection, most certainly including the cross. Significantly, Christ witnessed of His experience with one key mortal consequence of sin, as He exclaimed, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"(Mark 15:34). As you said of the Fall of Adam, Pastor Jeff, "mankind at that point could not be in Holy God's presence, because now sin and disobedience had entered in"(12:25). For this reason, the Father had to withdraw His presence from the Son, because the Son had voluntarily taken upon Himself the sinful state of mankind together with all of its penalties. Jesus was dying on the cross with the full weight of the sins of mankind upon His shoulders, thereby freeing us from the inevitable consequences of sin, including death and isolation from God. At least in that sense - if not in every sense - the Savior's experience "see[ing] his seed"(Isaiah 53:10) in Gethsemane continued to the end of His life.
When I think of Jesus Christ, I know that He has covered my every sin, my every pain, and my every flaw. When I feel that no one understands, I feel the Spirit bearing witness to me of the Savior's love, the perfect empathy He won in atoning for my sins, and I know that He has felt exactly what I am feeling, that He has faced my exact challenges and limitations, and that He has overcome them with the words, "not my will, but thine, be done"(Luke22:42). While you may not agree with the details of our understanding of Christ's experience in Gethsemane, I hope this explanation will help you see more parallels between your beliefs and my beliefs about Christ's Atonement. I hope you will be able to recognize more easily that our beliefs about Gethsemane are in no way an affront to your beliefs about the cross, but rather complementary and supportive of the significance of Christ's physical sacrifice and death. I hope you will see that my beliefs about Gethsemane expand my view every day of the infinite power of the infinite atoning grace of the Lamb of God and my complete and utter dependence upon Him. I love the Lord, and I rejoice in the victory of His sufferings, death, and resurrection, as I know you do as well.
Thank you both! I was very impressed by your calm, respectful and informative conversation! It was perfect! I'm going to listen again! God bless! 😊
It is wonderful to see what can be done when contention is absent.
This is a really good conversation about beliefs!! Thanks for sharing with us!
If you are a latter-day-saint, you are watching this to vibe with your truths on display, and your defences. If you are evangelical, you are watching it to feel good where you resonate and the strength you have on your side. Boy, all of our upbringing is, even in a context of love and safety like this wholesome channel where criticism is fought with curiosity, I still have to say, it is difficult to fight what we were brought up and polarized to see. Props to Jeff, who is putting up solid remarks in favor of an evangelical perspective, while also being capable of a genuine approach to a different perspective, full of love and not contention at all. I wish I could be curious enough, intelligent enough and loving enough to allow a different vibe into my heart, like some super difficult debate club but of the soul and mind and heart. It genuinely makes me want to call up a person not of my faith and truly seek to understand what they understand and vibe with it, with no defence, conversion attempt, contention or competition harbored by me whatsoever. You are the coolest Jeff!
@RockapellaFan Listening is where we learn ... thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Yes this was indeed refreshing. No debating, point-scoring, judging, condemning or trying to convert. Just sharing and clarifying with a view to understanding through a filter of Christ like love. Thank you
@@HelloSaints James 1:19
Great Conversation guys! 👍🏻 Agree to Disagree without yelling, screaming, and taking offense, to actually have a conversation of understanding both sides. 👍🏻
I am a member and all the doctrine I have been taught absolutely talks about the atonement of Christ starting in Gethsemane where he did begin his suffering, but that was just part and might even be considered minor to what would be coming. While in Gethsemane Christ indeed suffered, and had to go through the personal suffering, but he could curl up or lay down if he wanted. He had angels around him and no one else to mock or beat on him. At that time it was a personal suffering of body and spirit...and He still had some choice at that time. As soon as he was "captured" all of His options were taken away and now everything He suffered in Gethsemane was added upon. This time it was in public. Publicly humiliated, publicly betrayed and accused wrongfully and then He was at the mercy of receiving pain put on Him by others...those who would whip Him, torture Him, disrobe Him and nail Him to the cross in front of all. His pain was more intense than it was in Gethsemane and the only time he truly felt alone was when He cried out to God, His Father, asking why He had forsaken Him...God withdrew His spirit so Christ could experience what it felt like to be completely abandoned. The Atonement did start in Gethsemane, but it was not complete until Christ was on the cross and said "It is finished". True, I choose not to wear a cross, but it isn't because I don't recognize the suffering on the cross, it is because Christ overcame Sin AND Death. The two main things He came on earth to accomplish, and they weren't complete until His resurrection. The body and spirit reunited was what fulfilled Christ's purpose so it is the resurrected Lord I choose to have as my emblem.
Just pointing out that when you say "mainstream Christians" you are not actually referring to a majority of Christians, you are actually referring to a minority of Christians, specifically the part of Protestant Christians that agree with you.
I appreciate your content! Thank you for making it!
Just pointing out an example of where you are talking past the majority of your audience with a term that most people would not think is accurate.
For example, the first belief you mention (Sola Scriptura) is Not believed by Catholic or Orthodox Christians, who most people agree form the majority of Christianity.
You do this quite often in your videos, presenting your views as the majority/mainstream beliefs of Christianity, whereas they only are if you consider a majority of people believing in Christ to not be Christians.
If that's your belief, that's your belief, but please be clear with your viewers about it and not hide that.
Again, thank you so much for your videos!
All the best
This was a great conversation! Thanks for this.
What an awesome duo! Great conversation
I would humbly disagree that Sola Scriptura is a universal mainstream Christian belief. Catholics would disagree, as would several major Protestant denominations. Sola Scriptura I would say is a universal belief in Evangelical thought. I really do appreciate Jeff continuing this journey of conversation. Inside those of us in Trinitarian Christianity, this is a heart that is desperately needed.
You have me intrigued. I have fairly deep learning regarding religions in general but, I'd appreciate more depth in what you are talking on here. I am wanting to understand the wording and what is meant by what you've put out here. Thanks even before you respond.
Good point. For the vast majority of Christians (Roman Catholic and Orthodox) the biblical canon was determined long after the Church was founded and, while given precedence, is still to be understood through the creeds and councils of the Church which are just as binding as the Bible. When Luther broke with Rome he needed a basis from which to justify his position against the established Church-hence sola scriptura. As a side note, much of the early LDS opposition to the other churches was aimed at the various Protestant churches, especially the Calvinist ones. Catholicism wasn’t that big a player in upstate NY, NE Ohio, and Western Missouri.
Outstanding presentation from both sides. I just am enjoying this channel for the good hearted discourse and discussion of our sameness and our divergent thoughts. Nicely done!
LDS idea of living prophets actually makes entire sense. Having someone inspired by God to lead people and grow teachings to fit the changing world and how it affects positive change. As something translated 1000 years ago might’ve been given by God in a different worldly view to understand which can then be interpreted 1000 years later to be relevant for changes while still holding moral and ethical code
We really need more of this. Thanks Pastor Jeff.
Great conversation! Love when we can have respectful conversations and try to find common ground
I love this exchange. It really solidifies my beliefs and why I joined the Church. And reminds me why I left mainstream Christianity.
I was stunningly surprised in parts of how clearly I was witnessing the difference between the moon and the sun. I was gobsmacked with the clear difference between the ideas and authority of men compared to the power and authority of God.
Incredible.
I like this pastor Jeff. He’s a straight shooter even if he doesn’t agree. I like that a lot! Thanks pastor Jeff!
Great chat!!!!!!! Respectful
This was really helpful to me. Having grown up in the LDS church I never really heard what mainstream Christianity believes about the 2nd coming of Christ and the Resurrection. I just assumed, because it is what is shown in media, that they believed that when you died you went to heaven or hell for eternity. I hadn't heard anyone talk about a resurrection that would occur in there. It is great to see our beliefs are more in line with each other than I had initially believed.
@Kelsey Redford Good! The purpose was for both sides to provide clarity and context for both positions. Thx!
Excellent dialog. As a Latter-day saint, it better helps me understand my christian friends and some of their perspectives on gospel doctrine. Great job!
I think what Greg meant by ‘great decision’ on Eve’s part was that the fall was essentially all apart of God’s plan. Not meaning he wanted Adam and Eve to sin, but that he knew they would due to the setup (Satan being in the garden and both of them alone, it was a given).
Just like our kids need to know how to work through pain, loss and failure while they are growing up, what better way to teach us in our spiritual progression then through the fall. Adam was going to strictly follow the commandment and Eve, while yes tricked, made our progression possible. The Book of Mormon really helps us here because it says that if they remained in the garden they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no children. So Eve’s sin made our earthly journey possible. Adam understood that after Eve partook and so Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.
As a Christian with Mormon friends and family, I have to say I really appreciated this conversation on the differences and similarities between our beliefs. I, too, went to a Mormon temple welcome house (Cedar City) for the first time with my Mormon best friend, and it was so much more interesting to do with her to explain things. I have always viewed religion in general as an endlessly fascinating subject. And I always try to have conversations with a spirit of curiosity rather than contempt. I remember when we were talking about the mainstream belief in the Trinity vs. the mormon belief, how I explained it was with an analogy. I like the 3 states of matter analogy and using water. We have a solid form (ice), a liquid form (water), and a vapor form (steam). They are 3 different states, but ultimately, they are all still H2O. Similarly, that's how we view the triune G-d. You have G-d the father, G-d the Son & G-d the Holy Spirit, and like how you have 3 states of water, you have 3 "states" of G-d, but at the end of the day, they are all the same G-d, as ice, water, & steam are all H2O. She made a stink face at me, and said, No! Absolutely not! And thats where we left it.
I find its always better to let others tell me their beliefs and listen to them rather than for me to tell others their beliefs, i think that's what causes so much strife. And i so appreciate how you ask questions and let them tell you their beliefs. And dont argue with them about their beliefs.
Thank you for showing people of any faith that we can have love for each other while having difference's.
I honestly believe that you two are changing the world! I love love love this!!!
I wholeheartedly agree… The Spirit of Chris is strong with both of these noble servants of Christ.
Really good video. I'd love to see even longer videos unpacking some of these concepts. You were only able to scratch the surface on different views on the Godhead and the nature of Jesus Christ for instance.
God's blessing on both these Pastor leadership! Amazing!!!
I enjoyed the conversation… the more both of you talked the less differences I saw. People if they choose gain make the differences as big as the Mt. Everest or as small as an anthill. I selected the latter. When you consider the evil in the world honestly we are in the same page if one has perspective. Thank you both!
The fall of Adam and Eve in scripture is so interesting… not only were Adam and Eve going to sin because they are man, but the fact that life and joy needs contrast to understand them. For example, if you never knew of pain, you would not understand constant comfort being something good and wholesome. If you didn’t have sin or see sin then you would never know that the good things you did do in the garden were good other than the fact that someone told you it was. Can it really even be called righteous if you don’t even know or understand what evil and unholy is? They could do all good things without any intent to do good because they wouldn’t know what it is. The fall was necessary for our growth and progression. You need contrast. ❤
I truly appreciate what you are doing and especially sitting down with someone like Greg to get a clearer understanding. Y’all are basically doing (in my opinion) GOD’s will and work as the contention between sects or faith groups is from the adversary, discussion is good, but vitriol and hateful rhetoric is not constructive and not of Christ! I also appreciate your discussion of President Nelson’s recent talk on contention! You do a better job than almost anyone I have ever seen in showing ‘the fruits of your labor’ as a follower of Jesus, which (again in my opinion) is critically important as we approach HIS return.
Perhaps you are aware of this (20 ish y/o) book … (there was also a follow up … Bridging the Divide: The Continuing Conversation between a Mormon and an Evangelical)
“How Wide the Divide is a superb debate between BYU Professor Stephen Robinson, and Evangelical scholar Craig Blomberg concerning Scripture, God & Deification, Christ & the Trinity, and Salvation. Each of these four chapters contains initial statements of belief, comments upon each other's position, and a jointly written conclusion. ... How Wide the Divide" is a superb debate between BYU Professor Stephen Robinson, and Evangelical scholar Craig Blomberg concerning Scripture, God & Deification, Christ & the Trinity, and Salvation. Each of these four chapters contains initial statements of belief, comments upon each other's position, and a jointly written conclusion.” (copied and pasted)
The Doctrine and Covenant Christ reveals that in the garden of gethsemane he bled “at every pore”. That has always been such a visual representation of the extreme pain and weight of the sims of the world. Likened to olives and grapes in a press… It’s amazing that he was willing to do that…