@@גבריאל1994 Stimme absolut zu. Ich schätze der Unterschied ist aber, dass nur die FSSPX eine Revision des Konzils will bzw. deren Interpretation in mindestens 5 Punkten (Heilsuniversität, Ökumenismus, Religionsfreiheit, Liturgie, Bischofskollegialität anstatt absolutem Papstprimat). FSSP hingegen erkennt das Konzil grundsätzlich an und profitiert von einem rein pastoral begründeten Indult. Letztlich braucht es aber beide also FSSPX UND FSSP, weil beide nur getrennt die stärkste Schlagkraft entfalten. Insofern sind die Animositäten allerdings auch verständlich. Eine Vereinigung/Verschmelzung, d.h Fusion von FSSPX und FSSP wäre zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt eine große Gefahr, da so die Wahrscheinlichkeit eines wirklichen Abdriften der Kirche und eines veritablen Schismas vergrößert würde. Somit ist es ein Stück weit klar, weil FSSP und FSSPX unterschiedliche Strategien verfolgen, beide für die Alte Messe aber offene Kritik an den Ursachen der Krise ist nur in vollem Umfang der FSSPX möglich weil diese nicht von Rom gesteuert wird.
@@jeannebouwman1970 Yeah but without the bishops the SSPX would have died. Can't have new priests without bishops. And thus the FSSP would also not exist.
Agree. It's seem like all these traditional groups like to give people scruples about the other traditional groups. Each group seems to have something bad to say about the other. Except for fssp and ickp since they in full communion with each other. But at this point I dont listen to what people have to say. I just find a good perish with the latin mass and ignore the infighting. And if a group wants to send me away or refuse communion because I at times go to another group, then I'll just stay away from them.
The problem is that SSPV or CMRI are extremely rare in the USA. Even the SSPX is not available everywhere, So if the FSSP is available, people feel fortunate to have it. You take what you get and God will decide.
FSSP “Priests” are “ordained” by Novus Ordo “Bishops” whom don’t appear to be validly consecrated Catholic Bishops. The Mass only occurs with an actual Catholic Priest, no matter how reverent a layman may appear to be. Look for an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy with an actual Eastern Catholic Priest (i.e. not with one of these so-called Bi-Ritual Novus Ordo “Priests” who were “given faculties” to act as if they are an Eastern Catholic Priest, but aren’t because they weren’t validly ordained initially in the Novus Ordo) to attend.
@DoctorDewgong On 4 February 2022, two priests of the fraternity were received by Pope Francis in private audience, who subsequently issued a decree confirming that the FSSP could continue to celebrate the traditional liturgy publicly in their own churches or oratories, or anywhere else with the consent of the local ordinary.[9][10] The decree was dated 11 February 2022, the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes and coincidentally the same day that the FSSP consecrated themselves to the Immaculate Heart of Mary after a nine-day novena.[11][12] On 29 February 2024, the Superior General of the FSSP, Fr. Andrzej Komorowski, was received in private audience by Pope Francis, who assured them that the FSSP would continue to enjoy the right to celebrate the traditional liturgy.[13][14]
@DoctorDewgong the FSSP is a society of Apostolic life. Same with the Institute of Christ the King. And they are both growing. The NO is for dioceses, as it should be. Also, you are absolutely incorrect to say the TLM created every saint 🤣
I Disagree with Fr Jenkins (I believe that is his name) I am a FSSP attendee, and I don't share the concept of Ordinary and Extraordinary as it said by many. Pope Benedict XVl made that up. Our Pastor even slams the Novus Ordo Mass in so many words. And I see it just as my Missal says. (The Ordinary Of The Mass) So to me the Novus Ordo Mass is the Extraordinary form since it has only been around for 50+ years. Which is not even a lifetime. Just hardly a blink in history. Which is nothing in reality. I'm not going to allow the Modernist to change anything of the Faith. Not in my life in Christ Jesus.
@@Thoughtworld1984 I don't know anything about your Pastor of the Parish that you attend. But I can appreciate your sentiments. I am a straight up Traditional Catholic. For me it bothers me when JP2 is reference in a Homily. Because he kissed the Quran, allowed the Dalai Lama to place a Buddhist Statue on top of the Tabernacle in the Bacilica of Saint Peter. This is why I could never Reverence JP2 about any teaching of the Church. I just hope that he Repented and Confest these Sins. Since these Sins were done in public, I believe that he should have done a public repentance. But we are not the judge, Christ is the judge.
I am not a "Sede" or "SSPX" but this is our problem in the Novus Ordo Church. We are split into factions de Facto! Everything lies with the Pastor and the local ordinary. If he says it's ok for a Latin Mass than it is (maybe in just one church in the parish) But chaos and confusion run rampant in other parishes and dioceses. Why? The laity have too much control and are uneducated about catechesis, exegesis, liturgy and the importance of The Holy Eucharist. Watch next time you go Mass, how many receive in the hand? Do you see veils? People kneeling for communion? standing after the Angus Dei? It is ALL there mixed in on Sundays. Why too much laity involvement where the priests are getting lazy! Sorry but this I have seen first hand. The FSSP along with the SSPX can be quashed tomorrow with the stroke of the Dicastery's pen and The Popes blessing if they so desired. The "Rad-Trads", "Trad Cats", and "The Popesplainers: are sadly divided already! The average Joe in the pew does not know what is happening to The Roman Catholic Church. Like the Pharisees of old, they see not the Christ.
why do I get pharisee vibes from this discussion. The FSSP is the good seed in the church, promoting tradition. How is the action of celebrating the latin mass and its promotion going to bear bad fruit?
This seems to be a moot point. At any point, you're also agreeing to the fact that the Holy See has the authority to change/take away the NO as well, for those who attend that liturgy.
The Holy See has the authority to alter the form of the Mass. Just not its substance. Its very unfortunate the way traditionalists want to make an idol out of "little t" tradition, pretending that it's "big T" Tradition instead.
In my diocese they half too (any diocese or priest under the jurisdiction of the archdiocese of Chicago) they have to say the OF of the mass I think for a min of one Sunday Mass. for example, my local FSSP apostolate offers the NO on Saturday evenings
Ordinary means like the regular and the extraordinary is other, not the norm, I feel like this priest is using these terms in a different way. Idk is it just me? Also from my brief experience with the EF, it has helped me cherish the OF, and the OF, has helped me really appreciate the EF
Which was exactly what Benedict's goal was. No, it's not just you. This gentleman (I dont know if he's a legitimate priest or not) is using terms differently than the rest of the Church does. Ordinary and extraordinary, but also ecumenism. Ecumenism, properly defined, is striving to fully reunite the Church "organically", as it were, rather than by "decree." He needs to read the opening paragraph of Vatican II's document on Ecumenism. It'll give him a heart attack (for how orthodox it is).
To all Catholics: The SSPV and SSPX are not in communion with the Catholic Church. Because a bishop split off, yes they do have some valid sacraments but they are illicit. Meanwhile, the FSSP is completely valid and in union with Rome. The Latin Mass, in my opinion, is the most reverent and highest form of the mass. However, if one can not make it to an FSSP or ICKSP mass, go to a Novus Ordo mass. A mass at the SSPX, who chooses to remain outside the communion of the Church, will not suffice.
You can visit the SSPX if you don't have another TLM nearby and you find more spiritual benefit in the TLM. You run into problems if you do it because you think the NO is invalid or because you disapprove of Francis.
Not admitting to a lie in the least… it’s holding to the traditional mass as the church explores the century of novus ordo. If more TLM parishes fill up likes our locally the Church would pivot.
I'm an FSSP parishioner but what I don't agree with about the FSSP or ICKSP is that they're so enslaved to the dictator dead beat "dad" Bishops that they can't spread out to every diocese and city and small town in North America to Shepherd the flock. At least the FSSPX or Sedevacantist traditional Priests make more of an effort to serve The Roman Catholic Church and her children.
He doesn't have a problem with their consecration of bishops and therefore the ordination of priests performed by the bishops consecrated in the new rite?
the FSSP priests are simply novus ordo priests who do their thing in Latin, and their major flaw is inability or unwillingness to even slightly criticize the novus ordo or Vatican II
That is not an accurate statement. the stance of the FSSP is that the Novus Ordo is valid mass. of course, what would be invalidate a Novus Ordo mass would be an incorrect form. example: “shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven,”
One of the biggest problems is that they aren't validly ordained. Since 1968; no one is except the those independent priests who see whats going on and the sedevacantists.
@@Thoughtworld1984 we dont have the slightest authority to conclude they are invalid. Thats the problem with the sedevacantis is they turn people off by declaring things as if its dogma whe. The church hasnt authoritevly decided this.
You know what else we are part of? The actual Church.
Stimmt, aber ohne Lefebrve würde es FSSP nicht geben. Muss man auch sagen
@@karlheven8328Die FSSPX ist auch nicht schismatisch. Ich finde es ziemlich dämlich, dass sich die FSSPX und die FSSP bekämpfen.
@@גבריאל1994 Stimme absolut zu. Ich schätze der Unterschied ist aber, dass nur die FSSPX eine Revision des Konzils will bzw. deren Interpretation in mindestens 5 Punkten (Heilsuniversität, Ökumenismus, Religionsfreiheit, Liturgie, Bischofskollegialität anstatt absolutem Papstprimat). FSSP hingegen erkennt das Konzil grundsätzlich an und profitiert von einem rein pastoral begründeten Indult.
Letztlich braucht es aber beide also FSSPX UND FSSP, weil beide nur getrennt die stärkste Schlagkraft entfalten.
Insofern sind die Animositäten allerdings auch verständlich. Eine Vereinigung/Verschmelzung, d.h Fusion von FSSPX und FSSP wäre zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt eine große Gefahr, da so die Wahrscheinlichkeit eines wirklichen Abdriften der Kirche und eines veritablen Schismas vergrößert würde.
Somit ist es ein Stück weit klar, weil FSSP und FSSPX unterschiedliche Strategien verfolgen, beide für die Alte Messe aber offene Kritik an den Ursachen der Krise ist nur in vollem Umfang der FSSPX möglich weil diese nicht von Rom gesteuert wird.
@@karlheven8328In both ways, if Lefebvre didn't consecrate those bishops the fssp wouldn't exist because they'd still be part of the SSPX
@@jeannebouwman1970 Yeah but without the bishops the SSPX would have died. Can't have new priests without bishops. And thus the FSSP would also not exist.
Thank God for FSSP priests. They have proven to be true shepherds for their flocks. Thank you Father.
There IS no problem with FSSP.
Is there is!
Agree. It's seem like all these traditional groups like to give people scruples about the other traditional groups. Each group seems to have something bad to say about the other. Except for fssp and ickp since they in full communion with each other. But at this point I dont listen to what people have to say. I just find a good perish with the latin mass and ignore the infighting. And if a group wants to send me away or refuse communion because I at times go to another group, then I'll just stay away from them.
@@robertkolinsky1286there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the new mass. It’s perfectly valid and pleasing to God
Fssp cowards. Right cutis?
Fssp cowards priest
The is no problem at all with FSSP.
The problem is that SSPV or CMRI are extremely rare in the USA. Even the SSPX is not available everywhere, So if the FSSP is available, people feel fortunate to have it. You take what you get and God will decide.
FSSP “Priests” are “ordained” by Novus Ordo “Bishops” whom don’t appear to be validly consecrated Catholic Bishops. The Mass only occurs with an actual Catholic Priest, no matter how reverent a layman may appear to be. Look for an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy with an actual Eastern Catholic Priest (i.e. not with one of these so-called Bi-Ritual Novus
Ordo “Priests” who were “given faculties” to act as if they are an Eastern Catholic Priest, but aren’t because they weren’t validly ordained initially in the Novus Ordo) to attend.
@@RapidCycling07 problem is we dont have the authority to objectively say the fssp is invalid.
@@robertkolinsky1286exactly
Why would you be upset with a normal Catholic perish ? There’s absolutely nothing invalid with the new mass
@@RapidCycling07 There's no such thing as a "novus ordo" bishop. There are just bishops who trace their succession to the apostles.
Francis is willing to tolerate EVERYTHING...except the mass that created every saint
He affirms the Latin Mass
@@Thedisciplemike only in very very small doses and in confined areas
@DoctorDewgong On 4 February 2022, two priests of the fraternity were received by Pope Francis in private audience, who subsequently issued a decree confirming that the FSSP could continue to celebrate the traditional liturgy publicly in their own churches or oratories, or anywhere else with the consent of the local ordinary.[9][10] The decree was dated 11 February 2022, the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes and coincidentally the same day that the FSSP consecrated themselves to the Immaculate Heart of Mary after a nine-day novena.[11][12] On 29 February 2024, the Superior General of the FSSP, Fr. Andrzej Komorowski, was received in private audience by Pope Francis, who assured them that the FSSP would continue to enjoy the right to celebrate the traditional liturgy.[13][14]
@@Thedisciplemike that's great. The FSSP is tiny. He doesn't extend that same kindness to diocesan TLMs
@DoctorDewgong the FSSP is a society of Apostolic life. Same with the Institute of Christ the King. And they are both growing. The NO is for dioceses, as it should be.
Also, you are absolutely incorrect to say the TLM created every saint 🤣
He basically said everything that's right about the FSSP.
I Disagree with Fr Jenkins
(I believe that is his name)
I am a FSSP attendee, and I don't share the concept of
Ordinary and Extraordinary as it said by many. Pope Benedict XVl made that up.
Our Pastor even slams the Novus Ordo Mass in so many words. And I see it just as my Missal says. (The Ordinary Of The Mass) So to me the Novus Ordo Mass is the Extraordinary form since it has only been around for 50+ years. Which is not even a lifetime. Just hardly a blink in history. Which is nothing in reality. I'm not going to allow the Modernist to change anything of the Faith.
Not in my life in Christ Jesus.
Based
I go to FSSP, too. But it bugs me that we are cozy-ish with modernism.
@@Thoughtworld1984
I don't know anything about your Pastor of the Parish that you attend. But I can appreciate your sentiments. I am a straight up Traditional Catholic. For me it bothers me when JP2 is reference in a Homily. Because he kissed the Quran, allowed the Dalai Lama to place a Buddhist Statue on top of the Tabernacle in the Bacilica of Saint Peter. This is why I could never Reverence JP2 about any teaching of the Church. I just hope that he Repented and Confest these Sins.
Since these Sins were done in public, I believe that he should have done a public repentance. But we are not the judge, Christ is the judge.
I am not a "Sede" or "SSPX" but this is our problem in the Novus Ordo Church. We are split into factions de Facto! Everything lies with the Pastor and the local ordinary. If he says it's ok for a Latin Mass than it is (maybe in just one church in the parish) But chaos and confusion run rampant in other parishes and dioceses. Why? The laity have too much control and are uneducated about catechesis, exegesis, liturgy and the importance of The Holy Eucharist. Watch next time you go Mass, how many receive in the hand? Do you see veils? People kneeling for communion? standing after the Angus Dei? It is ALL there mixed in on Sundays. Why too much laity involvement where the priests are getting lazy! Sorry but this I have seen first hand. The FSSP along with the SSPX can be quashed tomorrow with the stroke of the Dicastery's pen and The Popes blessing if they so desired. The "Rad-Trads", "Trad Cats", and "The Popesplainers: are sadly divided already! The average Joe in the pew does not know what is happening to The Roman Catholic Church. Like the Pharisees of old, they see not the Christ.
Nothing wrong with the FSSP
the good thing about what he is saying is that it isn’t factual…i currently and proudly still attend the FSSP TLM🙏🏻🇻🇦
why do I get pharisee vibes from this discussion. The FSSP is the good seed in the church, promoting tradition. How is the action of celebrating the latin mass and its promotion going to bear bad fruit?
This seems to be a moot point. At any point, you're also agreeing to the fact that the Holy See has the authority to change/take away the NO as well, for those who attend that liturgy.
The Holy See has the authority to alter the form of the Mass. Just not its substance. Its very unfortunate the way traditionalists want to make an idol out of "little t" tradition, pretending that it's "big T" Tradition instead.
God bless the SSPV COMMUNITY!
Thank you Fr Jenkins
The SSPV is schismatic and heretic.
If you are starving to death, and you are offered food you do not like, although it will save your life... what do you do????
God bless the FSSP
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the FSSP priests can celebrate the Novus Ordo missal of 1970.
In my diocese they half too (any diocese or priest under the jurisdiction of the archdiocese of Chicago) they have to say the OF of the mass I think for a min of one Sunday Mass. for example, my local FSSP apostolate offers the NO on Saturday evenings
@@Tunafish262 "for a min of one Sunday Mass" ?
Ordinary means like the regular and the extraordinary is other, not the norm, I feel like this priest is using these terms in a different way. Idk is it just me? Also from my brief experience with the EF, it has helped me cherish the OF, and the OF, has helped me really appreciate the EF
Which was exactly what Benedict's goal was.
No, it's not just you. This gentleman (I dont know if he's a legitimate priest or not) is using terms differently than the rest of the Church does. Ordinary and extraordinary, but also ecumenism. Ecumenism, properly defined, is striving to fully reunite the Church "organically", as it were, rather than by "decree." He needs to read the opening paragraph of Vatican II's document on Ecumenism. It'll give him a heart attack (for how orthodox it is).
Thank you, Father, for the clear, logical and concise words. So true!
Thanks for watching!
What’s the logic? That he is a sedevacantist?
@@christophercortes1524 I'm a Sedevacantist. Got something you want to say?
To all Catholics:
The SSPV and SSPX are not in communion with the Catholic Church. Because a bishop split off, yes they do have some valid sacraments but they are illicit.
Meanwhile, the FSSP is completely valid and in union with Rome. The Latin Mass, in my opinion, is the most reverent and highest form of the mass. However, if one can not make it to an FSSP or ICKSP mass, go to a Novus Ordo mass. A mass at the SSPX, who chooses to remain outside the communion of the Church, will not suffice.
Wrong
You are incorrect as to the SSPX. Please do some research.
Wrong.
You can visit the SSPX if you don't have another TLM nearby and you find more spiritual benefit in the TLM. You run into problems if you do it because you think the NO is invalid or because you disapprove of Francis.
Brain wash. Fssp modernist 🤷♂️🙅🏻♂️🤝
This priest is 100% accurate with his charges
Not admitting to a lie in the least… it’s holding to the traditional mass as the church explores the century of novus ordo. If more TLM parishes fill up likes our locally the Church would pivot.
I'm an FSSP parishioner but what I don't agree with about the FSSP or ICKSP is that they're so enslaved to the dictator dead beat "dad" Bishops that they can't spread out to every diocese and city and small town in North America to Shepherd the flock. At least the FSSPX or Sedevacantist traditional Priests make more of an effort to serve The Roman Catholic Church and her children.
He doesn't have a problem with their consecration of bishops and therefore the ordination of priests performed by the bishops consecrated in the new rite?
the FSSP priests are simply novus ordo priests who do their thing in Latin, and their major flaw is inability or unwillingness to even slightly criticize the novus ordo or Vatican II
Thanks
The FSSP fully supports the Novus Ordo.
That is not an accurate statement.
the stance of the FSSP is that the Novus Ordo is valid mass.
of course, what would be invalidate a Novus Ordo mass would be an incorrect form.
example: “shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven,”
This helps😊
These are sedevacants that Bishop Lebfreve threw out of the SSPX
Right to left. She's right to have left.
I was going to Institute of Christ the King but I got over it.
You are mistaking.
One of the biggest problems is that they aren't validly ordained. Since 1968; no one is except the those independent priests who see whats going on and the sedevacantists.
Why aren't they?
@@Thoughtworld1984 we dont have the slightest authority to conclude they are invalid. Thats the problem with the sedevacantis is they turn people off by declaring things as if its dogma whe. The church hasnt authoritevly decided this.
Very wrong on that point. You are just blowing hot air.
@@haroldgaubert who me?
You are incorrect. Please do some real research.