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Well, I had quite a hard crash about a year ago with a non-MIPS Helmet, where my head impacted the north-shore plateu that I failed to land on, after the gap. Had to go to the hospital for two days, no serious brain damage took place, but it hurt for about two weeks. If you guys give me 1 Million $ I will try it again with a MIPS Helmet and let you know, if it changed anything. Now that I think about it...maybe serious brain damage DID took place that day...
@@BlackWaterCyclist I suspect you have a PhD! These are exactly the kind of questions peer reviewers and editors would ask before a paper can be published in a journal. Testing two identical helmets, one with MIPS and another without and then comparing the results, is a question anyone should ask before accepting a hypothesis. And note that most crash-test humanoids do not have hair attached. This really should be a variable that is addressed in any test of a helmet.
@@guyreviewer105 To include hair, they'd have to bring in another panel of experts. To say a given wig does or does not sufficiently match the same characteristics and configuration of hair naturally grown from the scalp.
@@guyreviewer105Information isn’t quite correct. VT have tested a bontrager rally in mips and wave cell and the mips tested higher but not only that when bontrager mips results came out they removed from the market. How embarrassing for them
Bell started MIPS, they have been regarded as the best for years. I think they would not risk loss of reputation and lawsuits for something that’s doesn’t increase safety
on 24th Februar 2023, i had a crash going 48km/h, hit my shoulder and head into ground, collarbone snapped and on the helmet visor came off and mips engaged, the insert rotaded and saved my head. have had crashes with normal full face helmets, can say that the shock was way safer on a mips helmet.
cannot put a price on your own head can you? It's not like they are asking 2x the price, it is about £30 more. Spending thousands on bikes and cheaping out on a helmet does not make sense, might as well shell out the few extra quid mefinks
Yes that is a great point but with the traditional slip liner, I do not feel the lack of ventilation to be worth it but I'm also riding in 100 degree Fahrenheit temps during the summer. Now that they have the spherical MIPS and the POC Spin pads, I am good with it. I actually ride a POC ventral air now with Spin pads but it's because of the ventilation. I consider the Spin pads a little bonus.
You’re right, we should buy into a marketing ploys and give our money for the illusion of safety, just because someone is offering it. You realise that the sunk cost fallacy is a form of bias, and companies are actively exploiting it? This logic of „I should spend more because I already spent a lot” is what makes every hobby so damn expensive.
At 2:29 you can clearly see, that the helmet strap is very loose. But the Helmet still stays firmly on the head. I think you have to cinch down the rear wheel of the helmet very strong to achieve that. Not a very realistic scenario.
Thanks for the positive comment. Yeah I just really want to get more info out there for everyone. It's turning into one of those taboo things that you aren't allowed to question.
I agree with a lot of your points. Even when buckled my helmet has a fair amount of movement on my head, which seems like it would accomplish the same thing. I wanted a new helmet this year because my old one is hot and I care a little less about aero these days. I bought a poc because whether the spin pads do anything or not, they are comfortable, and they don't mess with ventilation at all.
Exactly! I am actually using a POC helmet now. I bought it more for ventilation than the SPIN tech. If the rotational tech can be added without obstructing from ventilation, I am fine with it being on a helmet.
I just did a warranty exchange on a wavecell helmet after the rider taht collided with the back of an suv. The outer portion of the helmet had a very very small dent on the impact zone while the inner wavecell portion was completely smashed in on the impact zone. I'm not sure what rotational impact the wavecell may of helped in but thinking that portion could of been the riders head made me appreciate the design and he was able to walk in and make an exchange for a new one is always better than a trip to the hospital.
I really like the idea behind the wave cell design. I wish it could be designed to have better ventilation but other than that, I like it. Great info here and I appreciate you taking the time.
@BlackWaterCyclist please explain how the bontrager rally MIPS tested higher than the bontrager rally wavecell? Don't you find it strange they removed the rally mips from the market after the VT results came in?
off-topic: you should not keep your house insulation in the bags - they get compressed and need to be fluffed up - it is the tiny air pockets created when fluffed up that are the air insulation between the inside and outside of the walls. For example, Inner-Safe batt insulation is compression-packed and will expand to its labeled thickness. nice helmet info tho!
Other factors you didn't consider that also can exist with real people wearing helmets. 1. We have a scalp that already rotates some amount around the cranium underneath it. 2. Also, especially during colder months, and for those who wear liners for sun protection in the summer, what do caps under our helmets also add in terms of slippage?
Best video of them all so far! Introduced me to the Virginia Tech testing and rating of bicycle helmets! It needs to be emphasized that the SNELL study needs to be completely discredited for what it is - an idiotic test design that would be valid if you were testing for construction hardhats but totally invalid for the injury mechanisms underlying most vehicular head injuries. The SNELL test basically drops a giant brick onto a stationary helmeted target and assesses only for the crush protection. The force of a sudden rotational acceleration of the head, the underlying mechanism of injury that causes the well known (if you are a neuroradiologist like I am) phenomen of Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI) is simply NOT a factor in the SNELL test. The VT tests drop a free form helmeted head at different angles onto various blocks. This simulates the underlying motion of the human head before it is suddenly stopped by a crash into something - the angle of the crash WILL CAUSE THE HUMAN HEAD TO SUDDENLY ROTATE, and it is this sharp sudden rotational acceleration that that causes the axonal fibers of the brain to sheer off from the neuron bodies at the gray-white junctures and in other white matter regions of the brain. This mechanism WILL PRODUCE multiple tiny microbleeds and other changes visible on high quality MRI studies, and are the underlying basis for a long lasting often devastating TBI. DAIs are totally real and the mechanism that causes them have been understood for decades. The SNELL test people simply have no clue what they are doing because their test DOES NOT SIMULATE the mechanism of action that causes DAIs.
But why did the MIPS bontrager rally test higher than the bontrager rally wavecell? Why did trek suddenly discontinue the rally MIPS after the VT results put the MIPS as safer over the wavecell same model?
@@chefgav1 No idea. You should ask Trek. My entire post was about what a completely IDIOTIC test the original SNELL test design was because it absolutely 100% DOES NOT TEST FOR ROTATIONAL HEAD INJURIES. Like I said, I am a neuroradiologist by profession. Diffuse axonal injury (DAI) and the rotational mechanism that caused it was first described back in 1982. I have seen many many cases of DAI on MRI brain scans. There is absolutely no excuse for anybody involved in the study of head injuries or helmet protection for head injuries to not know about this cause of traumatic brain injuries. BTW, this sudden rotational acceleration and deceleration of the head is also what is the major mechanism of injury in Shaken Baby Syndrome type of child abuse.
Back in the early 80s, when helmets started becoming a perceived necessity for biking in general, the helmet fit rule of thumb was that it was supposed to be tight enough to stay on but loose enough to slide slightly on your head. That is exactly what MIPS allows, 5-10% movement. MIPS isn't padding for impact. The helmet is "saving your life" or "preventing brain damage" or whatever, not the MIPS. Just a manufactured reason to buy a new helmet.
I agree with you now that MIPS has become so discreet and does not hinder airflow. At the time of this recording, MIPS was just a sleeve that went inside a previous helmet, making the helmet tighter, heavier, and less air flow. Now with MIPS Spherical and the MIPS pads, I am all for MIPS. I did want to mention that these tests do not simulate real life.
I'm from the Netherlands, lets call it the bike capital of the world. Bicycle helmets are usually NOT worn over here. But with the surge in electric bikes and the higher speeds involved and older people picking up cycling (as goes for me, I'm 64) more head injuries are occurring. I started looking into helmets and quickly saw that MIPS is hot. But is it better?? Now your videos is one of the few who is (at least) skeptical about it. Scientific research is the only way to go (only accident data will be maybe more clears, but that will take years to gather) So, the bottom line is: back to square one. I don't know what to pick, MIPS or not!!
Yeah I am just trying to be neutral in my analysis of things and I love that they are looking to make things safer but in reality, does it achieve what they claim. It has become taboo to say anything against a product labeled "safer". Most MIPS products are much better than what they were in the past so I am fine with having Mips in my helmet as long as it is not obstructing the airflow or compromising the fit of the helmet. I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it was in my helmet.
@@BlackWaterCyclistYour video and this comment really HELPED. I’m currently trying to find the perfect helmet and even just visited a lbs near my job. Good to know I don’t necessarily need to search for a MIPS helmet. Thank you!!🙏🏼
I just had my very 1st bike accident Monday head on crash I flew over my handlebars landed on my bike than hit my head I have a mips helmet I can honestly say my body hurts but the helmet took most of the impact I didn't have a headache, tight neck or anything but far as my chest, back, and legs is sore as ever from the falling. I believe it does work
I am sceptical about MIPS in this "first" (inside liner) version. I agree, for me, it also looks that you have to wear your helmet unrealisticaly tight for it to really work and make a difference. I tried on MIPS and non-MIPS helmets, and that's what I noticed. Otherwise both helmets slide on your hair similarily, but MIPS makes a helmet less comfortable and blocks some ventilation. I'd prefer this GIRO version, where the outer shell moves, Lazer Kineticore solution, or Bontrager Wavecel, those have more sense to me.
i watched several explanations and the whole GCN video where they go over it, and im still unclear how its actually supposed to help, because it turns so easy that there is zero dampening effect. Maybe im just dumb, but it doesnt make sense to me
Yeah it is all about the quick jerk of forces on the brain when the head hits the ground and it is supposed to dampen the effects of that. I still think your skin and hair already accomplish this. Also if the skin can do this already and you add another rotation to it, how much further rotation is needed until the helmet is not in the proper place to protect you.
I agree with you. Slippery plastic layers move very easy. I believe it could work if pull the head slightly from the beginning of the rotation, but not from the end. May be it decreases rotational impact because delayes rotation, absorbing linear hit firstly. So rotation happens with lower speed?
I never bought into the idea that such a thin liner that can move at most 1cm would make a helmet safer. I don't know if Wavecel is safer (like Mips, data for Wavecel is lacking) - but does make more sense to me. So if costing the same, I would choose Wavecel over Mips.
@virkelie2 it's the bontrager rally. Where have there MIPS model gone? Why did the MIPS rally test higher than the rally wavecell. It's the same helmet but different tech. Very suspect
Being that a human scalp moves over the skull along with the slippage provided by hair I don't see how mips adds much protection. Maybe for bald people it makes a difference but otherwise it just adds more discomfort and complexity. If you really want to be protected just wear a full face.
Great video. I wonder if it better protects the neck and spine as the rotation, if not absorbed by the helmet, should transfer to the spine. So perhaps even if the brain doesn’t see a reduction in angular acceleration, the neck might
well some brands like limar really take advantage of charge more for mips, over 99 euros for mips when specialized sell the align ll mips for $50 and these days more brands like trek offer wavecell (i own one) or mips
I'm kind of torn on this. I just got a non-mips Giro Scamp for my daughter who just transitioned from a 14" balance bike to a 16" pedal bike. She's been doing great with only a few minor falls in the month that she's been riding. She does a good job at catching herself when falling so hasn't even come close to hitting her head. She also doesn't go very fast so I'm wondering if I should get a mips helmet to replace it now or just wait until she grows out of it. I feel like at only 4 years of age that any helmet is better than none and that all impacts should be relatively minor before she transitions to a bigger bike and starts going faster. Maybe I'm just worrying too much but any suggestions would be appreciated.
I had my skull implanted with adamantium and a bio gel between it and my brain. Am I safe enough now? Just wear a helmet and don't worry about whether it slips and slides.
This is a good vid. Today I bought a abus Mercator mips helmet for $100. Am I sure it’s better? No. But it might be and I’ll spend the extra money. You can find a test that supports practically anything and duplicating a head impact in a bike crash appears challenging to me. Hope I never find out.
I would be more accepting of VT's ratings if they ranked more helmets and continued testing helmets. Why does the POC Ventral, and all its variants, not get listed at all? The octal spin got tested yet they couldn't for the ventral? where is the Abus helmets? etc. Its fine if a helmet doesn't get ranked if there is a slight change i.e. visor added but not when a brand new lineup is left untested. For me, after looking at the tech MIPs is the most understandable and marketable. You know and can see how it is going to react whereas the other tech it is harder to assess with all scoring highly on the scales. Its a shame most of other tech is limited to certain brands since brands having differing ways of doing things mainly in the straps adjustment department.
I recently came off my bike at speed & my head along with the rest of my body was hurled into a cattle grid af full force. My Giro MIPS helmet saved my life without a shadow of a doubt. If I had not been wearing my helmet the right side & temple region of my head would have impacted into the cattle grid. I was badly bruised around my ribs, arms & legs. They are now healed. Please guys, Always wear a MIPS helmet.
Firstly, I feel very bad reading about your crash. It's horrible that you or anyone else would have to experience something like that. I'm glad to hear that you've since healed. I hope you stay safe. Since we're dealing with a controversial topic (is it?) here, I'm going to be a little controversial too and despite the human factor of the incident, challenge the the point on how big of a role the MIPS played. Based on the comment you wrote, I can't come to a definitive conclusion that MIPS was the key saving feature. A helmet for sure but MIPS? I know it's horrible to speculate on a such thing and I'm sure you didn't intend your comment as a full description of the injuries but just arriving into a conclusion to wear a MIPS helmet specifically after the information you gave happened a bit too quickly. That being said, I too have a MIPS helmet and frankly bought the MIPS version (there was one without it available too) just to be on the safe side. Then again, if it really doesn't do *anything*, I could have as well bought myself a good luck charm. I wish we had more open comparisons of MIPS and non-MIPS versions of helmets on as many kinds of tests as possible. Again, most importantly, glad you're ok. And do wear MIPS if it makes you feel safer. I'm going to too!
I like mips idea and im a neuropsychologist in training, but im not sure i buy the idea. Because if it increases the chance your head Will slide out of the helmet you increase the chance of serious brain damage which is far worse. Also holes in helmets is stupid to me, Stones are sharp too. Id make one with fluid instead like the brain, d30 or something, that Will for sure reduce impact kinetic energy
You raise good questions, however VT does have a long history of helmet research. VT has researched and performed testing for the NFL and NCAA football as well as the NHL.
Yes I agree they have been doing research for awhile and I do appreciate them doing it. I believe SNELL has been doing it longer. It would be very interesting if they attached the head to a fixed structure that replicates the neck and redo the test with the same sensors. Maybe Mips would test to be even more beneficial. I would just like the test to replicate the real world as closely as possible. I appreciate the input.
Also bontrager rally have a mips and wavecell model and the mips tested higher at VT but not only that bontrager removed the mips from the market not long after VT results were released. This must have been a huge embarrassment for them
@@chefgav1 For me the fit from the Wavecell helmets was uncomfortable and somewhat heavy I felt. However, I have a friend with a Wavecell helmet and she has no complaints. On a side note, I had an issue with a Bontrager product. The Trek/Bontrager customer service team were most accommodating and for that reason I feel confident when purchasing their products.
Honestly any extra protection couldn't hurt. Not like they are asking $100s more, just a few extra bucks. I will try this helmet just for the little bit of extra protection. So is the MIPS just a gimmick ????
I think on snow or ice condition you have less friction force than bike helmet on asphalt surface. The ski helmet could easily "slide away" on ice or snow, so theoretically MIPS is not as important(if it was important) as on bike helmets.
Yeah I'm not as experienced with snow sports but any surface that can grip the helmet, Mips is supposed to help. Maybe a soft spot of powdered snow that the helmet grips when you make impact.
Informative video. I came off my bike yesterday and gave my helmet a good wallop, breaking it and leaving me with a thumping headache since , so was looking at a new (MIP ) helmet, but the prices are much more than normal helmets. then I came across this video and made me think again, probably MIP is useful under very strict lab conditions, but in practice - I don't wear my straps neck throttling tight, and when its cold, will wear a headliner, so it does seem a marketing gimmick for most.
We can't say if MIPS liners are worth it or not. The ONLY way to answer that question is to test helemets with and without MIPS. So I'd like to see such tests and the results and hear the testers analysis of the results. Please do a video on that.
Yeah, I don't believe the whole MIPs is better narrative. It simply doesn't make much common sense. If your helmet is so extremely tight and you have no hair, then maybe, maybe. In the real world, most people have hair and wear the helmet with a snug fit that still allows for movement.
But that movement is not as easy as with Mips, cos it is just friction between glossy plastic parts. And in case a quick impact, a tiny difference in friction can make a big difference in damage.
Re MIPS, This does not protect the brain..While the forces are mitigated, there is nothing in this presentation that accurately shows any benefit to brain protection and it’s not FDA cleared for any related purpose.. It might be able to provide some protection to the rider from skull fractures and lacerations but that appears to be the extent of its capabilities, at least to the extent of the presentation and research discussed.. Overall great presentation! Be safe!
Thank you for pointing out what I was saying for ages. I'm a bald chap therefore was able to inspect ma scalp movement very well (built in MIPS since birth). And that testing method is flawed on purpose to make money. Does MIPS does anything? Yes it makes millions in profits
Fact of the matter is MIPs provides more protection with not much added cost. Why not just get one with more protection? It doesnt make the helmet less comfortable. I think this video is too busy trying to justify why virgina techs tests are bad instead of just saying the only con to mips is a slightly higher cost.
The point of this video is not to disprove MIPS but just bring awareness to the claimed "best safety test". The newer Mips offerings and rotational options are much better than before and pretty much all helmets have some rotational protection now.
@@BlackWaterCyclist I'm usually sceptical of 'in house' safety systems and enhancements but I think the team of neurosurgeons behind MIPS and it being a stand alone entity gives it legitimacy that brands would struggle to achieve.
My humble opinion: get the cheaper helmet without Mips and use the money left to get decent gloves. Your head protection is important but if you crash and your bare hands reflexively catch the impact on the road surface you'll learn the hard way how often you use your hands every day. As an added bonus, gloves are light and small enough to fit in almost any pocket, really convenient. About Mips: bike crashes have strong enough impacts to basically fold your front wheel, and at surprisingly low speeds. I find it hard to believe that this little additional movement supported by Mips makes a difference compared to the forces involved. Truth is, helmets are just the most viable solution we could come up with given a pretty unfavorable anatomy, hitting your head in a crash is the worst that can happen either way and imho wearing a helmet at all in that situation is what matters. That said I'd be glad to be wrong about this, any progress in this area is worth a lot.
Yes I lean more towards the idea that a slip plain is really not going to make as much of a difference as many think it will due to other factors. Now that they are more integrated and the price doesnt seem to be too high anymore for lower end helmets with mips, it isnt as much of an issue.
I ordered a mips helmet, triple 8, it was $75 bucks vs 50 for another one. And got some good wrist guards. For an extra 20 dollars, even if it's just placebo, is worth it to me. I'm glad I didn't buy a $150+ mips helmet though
Xtra Protection is a Small Price to Pay when Your Brain is at Risk !!! Think about When you’re at Home & Hit your Head Accidentally on a Kitchen Cabinet door….OOUCH !!!! Now Picture falling off your E-Bike Going 20 MPH = Dead forever!!!😳🙏🚴🏻🚴🏻🚴🏻
But what if that 1 percent goes in favor of no MIPS like the SNELL workers experienced? I just wish the VT test could replicate real world scenarios better but if they changed it, all their previous test data is not comparable.
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I'm interested in helmets approved to meet the NTA-8776 standard. Are you familiar with that standard and what might be your opinion?
Well, I had quite a hard crash about a year ago with a non-MIPS Helmet, where my head impacted the north-shore plateu that I failed to land on, after the gap. Had to go to the hospital for two days, no serious brain damage took place, but it hurt for about two weeks.
If you guys give me 1 Million $ I will try it again with a MIPS Helmet and let you know, if it changed anything.
Now that I think about it...maybe serious brain damage DID took place that day...
🤣🤣🤣🤣
"If your head's shooting off, you have other things to worry about," made me literally LOL.
Great video. Good to see someone thinking beyond the publicity material and coming to a balanced view. Well done.
Thanks Peter, I appreciate the feedback and could not agree more.
@@BlackWaterCyclist I suspect you have a PhD! These are exactly the kind of questions peer reviewers and editors would ask before a paper can be published in a journal. Testing two identical helmets, one with MIPS and another without and then comparing the results, is a question anyone should ask before accepting a hypothesis. And note that most crash-test humanoids do not have hair attached. This really should be a variable that is addressed in any test of a helmet.
@@guyreviewer105 To include hair, they'd have to bring in another panel of experts. To say a given wig does or does not sufficiently match the same characteristics and configuration of hair naturally grown from the scalp.
@@guyreviewer105Information isn’t quite correct. VT have tested a bontrager rally in mips and wave cell and the mips tested higher but not only that when bontrager mips results came out they removed from the market. How embarrassing for them
Bell started MIPS, they have been regarded as the best for years. I think they would not risk loss of reputation and lawsuits for something that’s doesn’t increase safety
on 24th Februar 2023, i had a crash going 48km/h, hit my shoulder and head into ground, collarbone snapped and on the helmet visor came off and mips engaged, the insert rotaded and saved my head. have had crashes with normal full face helmets, can say that the shock was way safer on a mips helmet.
cannot put a price on your own head can you? It's not like they are asking 2x the price, it is about £30 more. Spending thousands on bikes and cheaping out on a helmet does not make sense, might as well shell out the few extra quid mefinks
Yes that is a great point but with the traditional slip liner, I do not feel the lack of ventilation to be worth it but I'm also riding in 100 degree Fahrenheit temps during the summer. Now that they have the spherical MIPS and the POC Spin pads, I am good with it. I actually ride a POC ventral air now with Spin pads but it's because of the ventilation. I consider the Spin pads a little bonus.
With climbing helmets, it's way more than a $30 difference (US here). Typical standard helmet is $60, MIPS is $150.
You’re right, we should buy into a marketing ploys and give our money for the illusion of safety, just because someone is offering it. You realise that the sunk cost fallacy is a form of bias, and companies are actively exploiting it? This logic of „I should spend more because I already spent a lot” is what makes every hobby so damn expensive.
At 2:29 you can clearly see, that the helmet strap is very loose. But the Helmet still stays firmly on the head. I think you have to cinch down the rear wheel of the helmet very strong to achieve that. Not a very realistic scenario.
Yes I agree with you there as well. To get the benefits of MIPS, your helmet has to be unrealistically tight.
I’m not sold on MIPS either. Your video does a great job in outlining the facts for people to decide.
Thanks for the positive comment. Yeah I just really want to get more info out there for everyone. It's turning into one of those taboo things that you aren't allowed to question.
Video is incorrect. MIPS has been proven to be superior in a crash.
@@BlackWaterCyclistyour incorrect. Trek has 2 mtb models one is mips one is wavecell and the mips tested higher
I agree with a lot of your points. Even when buckled my helmet has a fair amount of movement on my head, which seems like it would accomplish the same thing. I wanted a new helmet this year because my old one is hot and I care a little less about aero these days. I bought a poc because whether the spin pads do anything or not, they are comfortable, and they don't mess with ventilation at all.
Exactly! I am actually using a POC helmet now. I bought it more for ventilation than the SPIN tech. If the rotational tech can be added without obstructing from ventilation, I am fine with it being on a helmet.
I just did a warranty exchange on a wavecell helmet after the rider taht collided with the back of an suv. The outer portion of the helmet had a very very small dent on the impact zone while the inner wavecell portion was completely smashed in on the impact zone. I'm not sure what rotational impact the wavecell may of helped in but thinking that portion could of been the riders head made me appreciate the design and he was able to walk in and make an exchange for a new one is always better than a trip to the hospital.
I really like the idea behind the wave cell design. I wish it could be designed to have better ventilation but other than that, I like it. Great info here and I appreciate you taking the time.
@@BlackWaterCyclisthow do you explain how trek with mips tested higher than the exact same model with wavecell then?
@BlackWaterCyclist please explain how the bontrager rally MIPS tested higher than the bontrager rally wavecell? Don't you find it strange they removed the rally mips from the market after the VT results came in?
off-topic: you should not keep your house insulation in the bags - they get compressed and need to be fluffed up - it is the tiny air pockets created when fluffed up that are the air insulation between the inside and outside of the walls. For example, Inner-Safe batt insulation is compression-packed and will expand to its labeled thickness.
nice helmet info tho!
Other factors you didn't consider that also can exist with real people wearing helmets. 1. We have a scalp that already rotates some amount around the cranium underneath it. 2. Also, especially during colder months, and for those who wear liners for sun protection in the summer, what do caps under our helmets also add in terms of slippage?
Best video of them all so far! Introduced me to the Virginia Tech testing and rating of bicycle helmets! It needs to be emphasized that the SNELL study needs to be completely discredited for what it is - an idiotic test design that would be valid if you were testing for construction hardhats but totally invalid for the injury mechanisms underlying most vehicular head injuries. The SNELL test basically drops a giant brick onto a stationary helmeted target and assesses only for the crush protection. The force of a sudden rotational acceleration of the head, the underlying mechanism of injury that causes the well known (if you are a neuroradiologist like I am) phenomen of Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI) is simply NOT a factor in the SNELL test. The VT tests drop a free form helmeted head at different angles onto various blocks. This simulates the underlying motion of the human head before it is suddenly stopped by a crash into something - the angle of the crash WILL CAUSE THE HUMAN HEAD TO SUDDENLY ROTATE, and it is this sharp sudden rotational acceleration that that causes the axonal fibers of the brain to sheer off from the neuron bodies at the gray-white junctures and in other white matter regions of the brain. This mechanism WILL PRODUCE multiple tiny microbleeds and other changes visible on high quality MRI studies, and are the underlying basis for a long lasting often devastating TBI. DAIs are totally real and the mechanism that causes them have been understood for decades. The SNELL test people simply have no clue what they are doing because their test DOES NOT SIMULATE the mechanism of action that causes DAIs.
But why did the MIPS bontrager rally test higher than the bontrager rally wavecell? Why did trek suddenly discontinue the rally MIPS after the VT results put the MIPS as safer over the wavecell same model?
@@chefgav1 No idea. You should ask Trek.
My entire post was about what a completely IDIOTIC test the original SNELL test design was because it absolutely 100% DOES NOT TEST FOR ROTATIONAL HEAD INJURIES.
Like I said, I am a neuroradiologist by profession. Diffuse axonal injury (DAI) and the rotational mechanism that caused it was first described back in 1982. I have seen many many cases of DAI on MRI brain scans. There is absolutely no excuse for anybody involved in the study of head injuries or helmet protection for head injuries to not know about this cause of traumatic brain injuries.
BTW, this sudden rotational acceleration and deceleration of the head is also what is the major mechanism of injury in Shaken Baby Syndrome type of child abuse.
@@gandalfgreyhame3425 Thank for the information
Back in the early 80s, when helmets started becoming a perceived necessity for biking in general, the helmet fit rule of thumb was that it was supposed to be tight enough to stay on but loose enough to slide slightly on your head. That is exactly what MIPS allows, 5-10% movement. MIPS isn't padding for impact. The helmet is "saving your life" or "preventing brain damage" or whatever, not the MIPS. Just a manufactured reason to buy a new helmet.
I agree with you.
speculating is good but I think ill trust the testing over the speculating
I agree with you now that MIPS has become so discreet and does not hinder airflow. At the time of this recording, MIPS was just a sleeve that went inside a previous helmet, making the helmet tighter, heavier, and less air flow. Now with MIPS Spherical and the MIPS pads, I am all for MIPS. I did want to mention that these tests do not simulate real life.
I'm from the Netherlands, lets call it the bike capital of the world. Bicycle helmets are usually NOT worn over here. But with the surge in electric bikes and the higher speeds involved and older people picking up cycling (as goes for me, I'm 64) more head injuries are occurring. I started looking into helmets and quickly saw that MIPS is hot. But is it better?? Now your videos is one of the few who is (at least) skeptical about it. Scientific research is the only way to go (only accident data will be maybe more clears, but that will take years to gather) So, the bottom line is: back to square one. I don't know what to pick, MIPS or not!!
Yeah I am just trying to be neutral in my analysis of things and I love that they are looking to make things safer but in reality, does it achieve what they claim. It has become taboo to say anything against a product labeled "safer". Most MIPS products are much better than what they were in the past so I am fine with having Mips in my helmet as long as it is not obstructing the airflow or compromising the fit of the helmet. I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it was in my helmet.
@@BlackWaterCyclistYour video and this comment really HELPED. I’m currently trying to find the perfect helmet and even just visited a lbs near my job. Good to know I don’t necessarily need to search for a MIPS helmet. Thank you!!🙏🏼
I just had my very 1st bike accident Monday head on crash I flew over my handlebars landed on my bike than hit my head I have a mips helmet I can honestly say my body hurts but the helmet took most of the impact I didn't have a headache, tight neck or anything but far as my chest, back, and legs is sore as ever from the falling. I believe it does work
I am sceptical about MIPS in this "first" (inside liner) version. I agree, for me, it also looks that you have to wear your helmet unrealisticaly tight for it to really work and make a difference. I tried on MIPS and non-MIPS helmets, and that's what I noticed. Otherwise both helmets slide on your hair similarily, but MIPS makes a helmet less comfortable and blocks some ventilation.
I'd prefer this GIRO version, where the outer shell moves, Lazer Kineticore solution, or Bontrager Wavecel, those have more sense to me.
i watched several explanations and the whole GCN video where they go over it, and im still unclear how its actually supposed to help, because it turns so easy that there is zero dampening effect. Maybe im just dumb, but it doesnt make sense to me
Yeah it is all about the quick jerk of forces on the brain when the head hits the ground and it is supposed to dampen the effects of that. I still think your skin and hair already accomplish this. Also if the skin can do this already and you add another rotation to it, how much further rotation is needed until the helmet is not in the proper place to protect you.
I agree with you. Slippery plastic layers move very easy. I believe it could work if pull the head slightly from the beginning of the rotation, but not from the end. May be it decreases rotational impact because delayes rotation, absorbing linear hit firstly. So rotation happens with lower speed?
I never bought into the idea that such a thin liner that can move at most 1cm would make a helmet safer.
I don't know if Wavecel is safer (like Mips, data for Wavecel is lacking) - but does make more sense to me. So if costing the same, I would choose Wavecel over Mips.
So why did a trek helmet with mips test higher than the same model with wavecell then?
@@chefgav1 Reference please.
@virkelie2 it's the bontrager rally. Where have there MIPS model gone? Why did the MIPS rally test higher than the rally wavecell. It's the same helmet but different tech. Very suspect
Being that a human scalp moves over the skull along with the slippage provided by hair I don't see how mips adds much protection. Maybe for bald people it makes a difference but otherwise it just adds more discomfort and complexity. If you really want to be protected just wear a full face.
Great video. I wonder if it better protects the neck and spine as the rotation, if not absorbed by the helmet, should transfer to the spine. So perhaps even if the brain doesn’t see a reduction in angular acceleration, the neck might
Is there info that MIPS liners can be detrimental? I don’t mind spending more money to be safe, but only if it’s as safe as a regular helmet.
well some brands like limar really take advantage of charge more for mips, over 99 euros for mips when specialized sell the align ll mips for $50 and these days more brands like trek offer wavecell (i own one) or mips
While in doubt, I prefer using MIPS: if it doesn’t work it would be useless, but if it does work then it may protect us.
I put Vaseline on my outershell like boxers to help the ground's shots to slide off.
Lol love it!
What about the wavecell technology? At least it looks functional, but way heavier than mips ones!
"I dont know why the bottom bracket guys arent involved in this"
😂 that was amazing 👏
I just installed a new BB too. The pain is real my man.
I'm kind of torn on this. I just got a non-mips Giro Scamp for my daughter who just transitioned from a 14" balance bike to a 16" pedal bike. She's been doing great with only a few minor falls in the month that she's been riding. She does a good job at catching herself when falling so hasn't even come close to hitting her head. She also doesn't go very fast so I'm wondering if I should get a mips helmet to replace it now or just wait until she grows out of it.
I feel like at only 4 years of age that any helmet is better than none and that all impacts should be relatively minor before she transitions to a bigger bike and starts going faster.
Maybe I'm just worrying too much but any suggestions would be appreciated.
I had my skull implanted with adamantium and a bio gel between it and my brain. Am I safe enough now?
Just wear a helmet and don't worry about whether it slips and slides.
This is a good vid. Today I bought a abus Mercator mips helmet for $100. Am I sure it’s better? No. But it might be and I’ll spend the extra money. You can find a test that supports practically anything and duplicating a head impact in a bike crash appears challenging to me. Hope I never find out.
Thanks for the feedback and you have purchased a nice looking helmet!
Thanks mate, I'm going for the non-mips helmet
I would be more accepting of VT's ratings if they ranked more helmets and continued testing helmets.
Why does the POC Ventral, and all its variants, not get listed at all? The octal spin got tested yet they couldn't for the ventral? where is the Abus helmets? etc.
Its fine if a helmet doesn't get ranked if there is a slight change i.e. visor added but not when a brand new lineup is left untested.
For me, after looking at the tech MIPs is the most understandable and marketable. You know and can see how it is going to react whereas the other tech it is harder to assess with all scoring highly on the scales. Its a shame most of other tech is limited to certain brands since brands having differing ways of doing things mainly in the straps adjustment department.
Why does the bontrager rally MIPS perform better in the VT testing over the same helmet in wavecell?
I recently came off my bike at speed & my head along with the rest of my body was hurled into a cattle grid af full force. My Giro MIPS helmet saved my life without a shadow of a doubt. If I had not been wearing my helmet the right side & temple region of my head would have impacted into the cattle grid. I was badly bruised around my ribs, arms & legs. They are now healed. Please guys, Always wear a MIPS helmet.
Firstly, I feel very bad reading about your crash. It's horrible that you or anyone else would have to experience something like that. I'm glad to hear that you've since healed. I hope you stay safe.
Since we're dealing with a controversial topic (is it?) here, I'm going to be a little controversial too and despite the human factor of the incident, challenge the the point on how big of a role the MIPS played. Based on the comment you wrote, I can't come to a definitive conclusion that MIPS was the key saving feature. A helmet for sure but MIPS?
I know it's horrible to speculate on a such thing and I'm sure you didn't intend your comment as a full description of the injuries but just arriving into a conclusion to wear a MIPS helmet specifically after the information you gave happened a bit too quickly.
That being said, I too have a MIPS helmet and frankly bought the MIPS version (there was one without it available too) just to be on the safe side. Then again, if it really doesn't do *anything*, I could have as well bought myself a good luck charm. I wish we had more open comparisons of MIPS and non-MIPS versions of helmets on as many kinds of tests as possible.
Again, most importantly, glad you're ok. And do wear MIPS if it makes you feel safer. I'm going to too!
I like mips idea and im a neuropsychologist in training, but im not sure i buy the idea. Because if it increases the chance your head Will slide out of the helmet you increase the chance of serious brain damage which is far worse. Also holes in helmets is stupid to me, Stones are sharp too.
Id make one with fluid instead like the brain, d30 or something, that Will for sure reduce impact kinetic energy
Great input here and agreed with the chance of the helmet rotating so much that it lacks protection. Awesome profile name by the way!
@@BlackWaterCyclist;) Merry Christmas
D30 outside the helmet ✅
D30 inside a helmet? bruhhh
I mean, I grew up with a regular helmet, not sure why anything would be wrong with it now
You raise good questions, however VT does have a long history of helmet research. VT has researched and performed testing for the NFL and NCAA football as well as the NHL.
Yes I agree they have been doing research for awhile and I do appreciate them doing it. I believe SNELL has been doing it longer. It would be very interesting if they attached the head to a fixed structure that replicates the neck and redo the test with the same sensors. Maybe Mips would test to be even more beneficial. I would just like the test to replicate the real world as closely as possible. I appreciate the input.
Also bontrager rally have a mips and wavecell model and the mips tested higher at VT but not only that bontrager removed the mips from the market not long after VT results were released. This must have been a huge embarrassment for them
@@chefgav1 For me the fit from the Wavecell helmets was uncomfortable and somewhat heavy I felt. However, I have a friend with a Wavecell helmet and she has no complaints.
On a side note, I had an issue with a Bontrager product. The Trek/Bontrager customer service team were most accommodating and for that reason I feel confident when purchasing their products.
Honestly any extra protection couldn't hurt. Not like they are asking $100s more, just a few extra bucks. I will try this helmet just for the little bit of extra protection. So is the MIPS just a gimmick ????
Does this video also apply to ski helmets? Or is it different when falling in snow?
I think on snow or ice condition you have less friction force than bike helmet on asphalt surface. The ski helmet could easily "slide away" on ice or snow, so theoretically MIPS is not as important(if it was important) as on bike helmets.
Yeah I'm not as experienced with snow sports but any surface that can grip the helmet, Mips is supposed to help. Maybe a soft spot of powdered snow that the helmet grips when you make impact.
Informative video. I came off my bike yesterday and gave my helmet a good wallop, breaking it and leaving me with a thumping headache since , so was looking at a new (MIP ) helmet, but the prices are much more than normal helmets. then I came across this video and made me think again, probably MIP is useful under very strict lab conditions, but in practice - I don't wear my straps neck throttling tight, and when its cold, will wear a headliner, so it does seem a marketing gimmick for most.
We can't say if MIPS liners are worth it or not. The ONLY way to answer that question is to test helemets with and without MIPS. So I'd like to see such tests and the results and hear the testers analysis of the results. Please do a video on that.
If you're bald, I believe you should get one with the MIPS
Yeah, I don't believe the whole MIPs is better narrative. It simply doesn't make much common sense. If your helmet is so extremely tight and you have no hair, then maybe, maybe. In the real world, most people have hair and wear the helmet with a snug fit that still allows for movement.
But that movement is not as easy as with Mips, cos it is just friction between glossy plastic parts. And in case a quick impact, a tiny difference in friction can make a big difference in damage.
Re MIPS, This does not protect the brain..While the forces are mitigated, there is nothing in this presentation that accurately shows any benefit to brain protection and it’s not FDA cleared for any related purpose.. It might be able to provide some protection to the rider from skull fractures and lacerations but that appears to be the extent of its capabilities, at least to the extent of the presentation and research discussed.. Overall great presentation! Be safe!
Bald? get MIPS
Got hair? turn your hair into a MIPS
Only downside of this is that bald individuals have been slightly scalped by the MIPS liners. Now that they have pads, it's much better.
Wow useful information 👍🙏
This video got me thinking what to buy now 🤣
Yeah it is something many people to not stop to think about. They see the marketing charts and just instantly think its great.
mips is marketing shite. in motobikes the goal is to have helmet as tight as possible. look at motogp riders puting helmets on. good video!
Thank you for pointing out what I was saying for ages.
I'm a bald chap therefore was able to inspect ma scalp movement very well (built in MIPS since birth). And that testing method is flawed on purpose to make money.
Does MIPS does anything? Yes it makes millions in profits
I crashed head on into the road at 60kms an hour wearing a non mips MET and it destroyed the helmet! MIPs would not help.
Much of the studies showing benefits are ripe with conflicts of interest (aka funded by the helmet industry)
Great video. NFL put 1 billion dollars on concussions/helmet technology. I wish some would compare a football helmet to MIPS.
Fact of the matter is MIPs provides more protection with not much added cost. Why not just get one with more protection? It doesnt make the helmet less comfortable. I think this video is too busy trying to justify why virgina techs tests are bad instead of just saying the only con to mips is a slightly higher cost.
If you have a $5 head, buy a $5 helmet...
The point of this video is not to disprove MIPS but just bring awareness to the claimed "best safety test". The newer Mips offerings and rotational options are much better than before and pretty much all helmets have some rotational protection now.
@@BlackWaterCyclist I'm usually sceptical of 'in house' safety systems and enhancements but I think the team of neurosurgeons behind MIPS and it being a stand alone entity gives it legitimacy that brands would struggle to achieve.
@@iaincullen7646 Sounds like you're ready for your next booster..
My humble opinion: get the cheaper helmet without Mips and use the money left to get decent gloves. Your head protection is important but if you crash and your bare hands reflexively catch the impact on the road surface you'll learn the hard way how often you use your hands every day. As an added bonus, gloves are light and small enough to fit in almost any pocket, really convenient.
About Mips: bike crashes have strong enough impacts to basically fold your front wheel, and at surprisingly low speeds. I find it hard to believe that this little additional movement supported by Mips makes a difference compared to the forces involved. Truth is, helmets are just the most viable solution we could come up with given a pretty unfavorable anatomy, hitting your head in a crash is the worst that can happen either way and imho wearing a helmet at all in that situation is what matters.
That said I'd be glad to be wrong about this, any progress in this area is worth a lot.
Yes I lean more towards the idea that a slip plain is really not going to make as much of a difference as many think it will due to other factors. Now that they are more integrated and the price doesnt seem to be too high anymore for lower end helmets with mips, it isnt as much of an issue.
I ordered a mips helmet, triple 8, it was $75 bucks vs 50 for another one. And got some good wrist guards. For an extra 20 dollars, even if it's just placebo, is worth it to me. I'm glad I didn't buy a $150+ mips helmet though
Xtra Protection is a Small Price to Pay when Your Brain is at Risk !!! Think about When you’re at Home & Hit your Head Accidentally on a Kitchen Cabinet door….OOUCH !!!! Now Picture falling off your E-Bike Going 20 MPH = Dead forever!!!😳🙏🚴🏻🚴🏻🚴🏻
Good advise
Wilson William Garcia Richard Thomas Donna
Interesting view
Thank you, tired of explaining the MIPS nonsense to people, now can point to this video.
Glad you have found the video beneficial and that is exactly why I made it myself. I just send them the link.
If its 1% better its worth it
But what if that 1 percent goes in favor of no MIPS like the SNELL workers experienced? I just wish the VT test could replicate real world scenarios better but if they changed it, all their previous test data is not comparable.
Ronaldo Street
It's the same people who insist of MIPS are the same ones getting booster after booster.
I have no vax and still think that Mips is better - better friction results in lesser impact.
Wear a HELMET!!! ND BODY ARMOR IN THE CITY.🦾 AND KEEP YOUR EYES MOVING👀. Remember to stop for a smoothie 🍦or an ice cream🍨