Did the 737 MAX Just Become Dangerous AGAIN?
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
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Chapters:
Intro - 0:00
The MCAS Problem - 1:05
EICAS & Split Certification - 2:17
Calhoun’s Threat - 3:42
Challenges of Cancellation - 4:51
Justification #1 - 7:59
Justification #2 - 8:41
Justification #3 - 9:32
Opposing Views - 10:52
Outro - 11:46
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Boeing's kind of on a roll. After years of turmoil, the company closed 2022 strong. Just a few months, Boeing scored a pair of multi billion dollar deals from United and Delta. Meanwhile, its flagship 787 program resumed deliveries after more than a year on pause.
But just last week, Boeing earned its biggest win yet. Congress will exempt the 737 from new regulation that requires its cockpit to be updated with new safety features. This rule would have cost Boeing millions, but it would also improve the safety of the troubled jet. So why did Congress give the MAX a pass? And more importantly, did congress make the MAX more dangerous in the process? Let me explain…
#Boeing #737MAX #aviation 
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You said the MCAS was not well understood by pilots because it was new, the reality is it was not well understood because the pilots were not told about it. It was intentionally kept secret to avoid the costs of having to retrain pilots.
I think Cory should re explain that item. It's conflicting.
The purpose of MCAS is to be transparent to the pilot and make the MAX fly like the previous “Next Generation” vintage.
@@lymancopps5957 It was a work-around to obtain certification...nothing more - nothing less...
It also wasn't a safe system in general, it was one computer running off of one sensor. Its crazy how they got away with it
@@lymancopps5957 not at all. The purpose of MCAS is to let the pilots FEEL like they can fly MAX like older "Next Generation"
Because of the new engine, MAX has higher risk of stalling if pilot fly like NG. However Boeing still told pilots that they can fly MAX like NG (to avoid 2 hours training)
The only functionality of MCAS is to secretly void pilot's operation if nose pitch is too high
Im disappointed you didnt mention the fact that before the Lion Air crash, Boeing never even informed airlines and pilots about the Existance of Mcas, its a major fact that should be delivered
Only the american pilots knew
Why didn't they crash in Europe and North America
Me too. I'm so disappointed.
@@tsebomoloi3410
No, all qualified pilot's know what runaway trim is.
They all knew. It was in the operators manual. They also knew what runaway trim is and how to react to it. MCAS was designed to work in the background. There is so much disinformation about what it does and why it it is there.
I work underground in a mine. When we change to a new area or machine will sit down for entire days to go through changes and upgrades.
Meanwhile with airlines and Boeing deem a 2hr training course for the Max upgrades unsatisfactory.
Unbelievable!
The think is that Inside the cockpit everything is the same so you have to do the exact same thinks but if they needed a redesign the would be very different, also I think that a mine is a lot more dangerous that a plane
It's way more than a two hour course. They'd be completely different machines. All the points he brings up about model confusion under stress are valid. He should do a video on actual retraining regimen and costs including simulator and maintaining currency so that information is more accessible to people.
Exactly what I think, especially if you think about that it is a safety upgrade that can help pilots in emergency! If pilots don't want to use it is there decision, with it the pilots can decide to use it or not. But if you don't give it to them when they they need it the pilots just can hope luck is on there side. Hopefully EU or Asia side kicks in and force them to Change the mistake
I agree. If I was Boeing trying to sell the max7, max10 I would offer free training for 2 pilots for every planes they buy. The orders are billions of dollars so $100 million in training costs are a drop in the bucket.
Most updated aircraft come with a simple slideshow walking pilots through differences. Boeing did that with the MAX and got flamed for it because of the accidents, but it's pretty common practice when the changes are minor. Airbus did it with the NEO, and Embraer with the E2 family. There really aren't many differences between the MAX and NG, especially now that MCAS' capabilities have been significantly hampered
Coby: "Losing the MAX7 could cripple the airline"
Southwest: "Hold our beer, we can cripple ourselves."
Mega oof
lol
The 2 Max crashes weren't famous. They were infamous.
This seems more like Airbus Fanboys are spewing allot of hate because of Boeing new huge sale plus the launch of the the Boeing 797. However if you want the truth just look and read all about the Airbus Crashes that out number Boeing with three crashes for every plane. However leads aviations in crashes and remember the Airbus crashed were Airboobs were caught changing the Black Boxes and how about the A330 that crashed halfway to Europe and the pilots no idea there where in flat spin. List of accidents and incidents involving the Airbus A320 family
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. For the entire A320 family, 160 aviation accidents and incidents have occurred (the latest accident with fatalities being Pakistan International Airlines Flight 8303 on 22 May 2020),[1] including 37 hull loss accidents,[2] and a total of 1505 fatalities in 17 fatal accidents.
@@kimberlywilliams7543 they're both very safe manufacturers (except 737MAX before the grounding). a320 and 737ng crash statistics are extremely similar. claiming anything otherwise is denying reality to support a manufacturer that (probably) doesn't even pay you
@@kimberlywilliams7543 you look like hurted dont you? you just cant handle the truth
@@kimberlywilliams7543 found the Boeing employee.
@@kimberlywilliams7543 does it really matter who's company (Boeing/Airbus) is better than others the main focus should be to improve there aircraft so these crashes don't occur in the future
As a retired aircraft maintenance technician, I can say this does boil down to money. The airlines don't want to hire more pilots, they want to cross train as many as possible. At the company I worked for, we could go to school on as many of the 5-6 aircraft types/models that we had, HOWEVER we were also expected to be proficient in those types! It can be very confusing and stressful trying to keep that much knowledge and differences training in your head. So in my opinion, this will come back to bite the airlines and government in the tail, it may take awhile since they will be new, but it will happen, just like it did with the Max when it came out, it's a bad design and Boeing knows it.
100% .... On the money, Sir.
No you're not
its always about $$$ :)
How the heck can they put something that controls a plane & NOT tell the pilots is totally beyond me.
There are a lot of systems that run autonomously that the pilots don't know about. And that's not the problem either. The problem is that Boeing has kept a lot of details about MCAS from the FAA. For example, it was not stated how much the system intervenes in active flight operations.
pilots didn't know about MCAS because they didn't receive training about it. Training that Boeing decided to hide away to not hinder sales of the plane because they promised it will operate the same as the previous variant with no new training required.
You do realize it's the airline customers that insist on training commonality, and not Boeing, right? Boeing would happily sell training time/services.
The ghost of Jacob van Zanten haunts Boeing to this day
It is in the interest of Boeing to make that happen, though. Otherwise what is the incentive to not say buy an airbus instead, when intensive retraining and different pilot pools are required anyways.
Imagine building an aircraft where the new bigger engines couldn't fit under the wings so had to be hung further forward, unbalancing the aircraft and making it unstable. MCAS was a 'band aid' solution as the new owners were too busy moving the headquarters to Chicago and didn't want to approve the expense of building a new plane to replace the 1960s designed 737. Greed will be the death of the human species.
@@TheOreamnos55 you do realize that airlines are penny pinchers and want to spend as little as possible right?
After once again having to fly the 737-800 for 5 hours on a flagship carrier it once again reminded me of how uncomfortable plane it is. The extra couple of inches A320 series cabins are wider, really make a difference. Legroom you can alter but seat width is much harder, and the generally 0,5-1 inch per seat in width makes Airbus so much more comforable to travel in..
Yep. I traveled transatlantic(!) - from Shannon Ireland to Boston Massachusetts - in an Airbus A321 Neo LR. And although I am extremely tall 6' 5 it was a pleasant experience. 4 kudos to Aer Lingus!
We all prefer to sit on a 787 when it comes to Boeing haha. Otherwise it might as well be an airbus
Flew 5 hours to Tenerife in both airbus winning this one
@@narrowistheway77 Ever been on an A350? You wouldn't want to go back to the 787... 😉
The legroom is the airline not the plane. The 737 is still the best plane in the medium haul market from my experience.
doing youtube full time is a big thing, i give you respect and hope things work out.
Yes!
A friend of mine is a 737 captain and flies the -8 MAX with some regularity. His comment is that the plane needs a little coaxing to start a descent, compared to the -800NG, the 757, and the 767. He attributes that to wing design, which generates a lot of lift.
I fly them too, and I don’t find that to be the case.. however, the newer engines have more residual thrust at idle, and that’s probably what your friend meant. Residual thrust means the idle speed is still producing thrust, and you have to be aware of that as it doesn’t descend as steeply, but there are speed brakes that you could use, or just manage your descent by starting down a few miles sooner. It’s not a big deal. Very easy plane to fly, and handles very nice.. it’s controls seem balanced and more stable than earlier versions.
Most of them are what are called short field performance, very hard to slow them down. But I’m not sure that’s all MAX variants, I only know first hand for the 8200.
It has a laminar flow wing which the airframe was never intended to have, the difference in engine size and weight compounds the C of G and C of L problems, hence all the ridiculous systems to make the damn thing flyable.
Best turned into razor blades asap.
@@rorykeegan1895 I’ve not seen anything to suggest the wing design is different.
@@rorykeegan1895 If you drive a crossover vehicle, there are computers forcing the suspension to make the vehicle behave like a sedan or coupe. If FWD trucks with limited off-road capabilities rolled like crazy on hard, fast turns, people would still buy coupes and sedans like they did 20 years ago.
Personally, I have no problem flying on a MAX. My friend thinks that the MAX is still superior to any Airbus, because all Airbuses are over-automated.
Nice job Coby. I was so intrigued by your sponsor that I used your link and purchased a wallet. Thanks!
Toby your channel deserves more attention by anyone. You are awesome man, I appreciate you. And I learned something new now!
Yep, dollars over safety, that's Boeing, Congress, and the FAA. Sigh.
Plus Southwest's "We must have a single fleet" policy, which of course was a major factor in the original failure to actually install MCAS safely and train the pilots on the pre-crash MAX.
Take the train then
Nothing wrong with the smash to pass recall system we have on the 73. Many operators will fly the NG and MAX fleets. Going from EICAS back to the old school master caution will create issues. I flew two different jets with EICAS prior to the 73 and while they’re very helpful they’re not a save all alerting system the general public think they are.
@@sncy5303 no you clearly don’t understand how this works. You can’t just force Boeing to retrofit every aircraft with EICAS thus requiring every new pilot on the aircraft to learn the system. 73 pilots don’t really care either way. What is the significance of EICAS in this situation? What do you think EICAS gives us? How has the NG’s exemplary safety record in the past now come into question when this new buzzword most people don’t understand now is brought up? I’m truly puzzled what the general public think EICAS is capable of. It’s a great system but by no means is the 73 fleet any less safe without it. You couldn’t be more wrong in that opinion.
@@sncy5303 but the electronic checklist isn’t necessarily EICAS. EICAS is just engines instrumentation and crew alerting. Aka you will have the status, fault, caution, or warning message displayed on a DU. This will then direct you to the QRH. (For example EICAS typically gives a specific aural to alert of a caution and one to a warning. Similar to how the system works now with the exception of it being light.) EICAS will say “FADEC 2 FAULT” which only directs you to the QRH to respond and clear the message. ECAM is something airbus popularized that implemented an EICAS and electronic checklist/QRH in one allowing you to follow the checklist directly from the screen. This was then copied and implemented on the B777 and B787 fleets with EICAS and an electronic checklist. The B757/767 fleets have EICAS but do not posses the electronic checklist capability.
@@sncy5303 also, what kills people in emergencies is acting too fast and going straight into the checklist without stabilizing the airplane. Fly the jet and get it into a situation you can safely work the checklist. If the electric trim isn’t doing what you want or responding turn it off, same with any automation. I won’t get into the crashes but the response items for a runaway stab is the same on the NG and MAX and both times were done incorrectly and not in line with the memory items prescribed by Boeing.
When I am planning a flight the first thing I do is to make sure that the plane is not a 737 Max.
Imagine compromising safety for securing a company :D
No way, the economical elites won't allow to do that 😂😂😂😂😂
Safety is compromised at all times, unless you’re flitting through life like the president. However, the video makes a logical case that it was the opposite of what you remark about.
Almost Every regulation upgrade has exceptions for cases where the upgrade is unworkable (including cost ).
In this case, keeping familiar might be safer.
@@ED-es2qv Well the experiences we had especially with the 737 max and Boeing in general prove otherwise.
USA™
The American way!
"Why did Congress give the MAX a pass?"
Because the USA is inherently protectionist when its businesses and corporations are threatened. I don't see the US doing the same sort of exemption if the A321 had some issues like MCAS.
Yep there's definitely leniency with their own. But I'm not surprised when it's a huge business that generates huge amounts of money. Every country does it to an extent
@@oNovoRapido The FAA is tougher on Boeing than EASA is on Airbus. And for good reason.
@@danharold3087 Pretty sure those were on the 737NG
@@danharold3087 That's obviously not true, Airbuses aren't falling out of the sky.
Well you are making assumptions, and this situation has never happened to airbus so who know what the faa will do.
Another win for safety is that the waiver came with strings attached. Congress gave Boeing this waiver but in exchange Boeing will have to implement the 3rd AOA sensor and the stickshaker cut-out switch in all factory-new MAXs, and retrofit it at their own cost in all the fleet of US-registered MAX of every version. That was a condition that EASA imposed on Boeing for Europe when they re-certified the MAX, and now the same condition will apply to the US.
It's not another win for safety. They built a plane without redundancy. They are just doing the right thing now... After they literally said the pilots caused the plane to crash.
Granting any kind of waiver whatsoever tells me not one lesson has been learned by the US Government, the FAA, and Boeing.
What it tells me is that profits come first, nothing else.
Boeing has been utterly trashed to make Wall Street happy, it deserves to go broke and disappear.
That's no win.
The AOA sensor should be considered entirely separate and required without strings attached at all.
The EICAS should be evaluated completely separately on its own.
Yeah, what he said.
@@tonysu8860 they need to be evaluated separately and then together for the aircraft functions where the are both involved.
Congratulations! You have earned yourself a new subscriber that is interested the flight industry.
Interesting analysis and content ! Thanks and good luck for the full time YT life!
Congrats on going full-time Coby. I will do my best to support you going forward.
Congrats on doing RUclips full time, keep it up man, love the videos :)
I'd rather cancel or change my departure schedule than I have to fly on this plane.
I've had three round trips on Southwest MAX-7's. Imagine that -- three round trips. How do you suppose I'm still alive? The days I flew Southwest, they also flew hundreds of flights with the MAX along with American and United. NONE of those airplanes crashed. How do you suppose that happened? As a passenger I cannot tell any difference between the NG and the MAX -- there's still not enough leg room.
its actually quiet comfortable to fly on. Very quiet compared to NG. I like it
@@Gabrocol i don't think anyone inside that particular Lion Air flight would agree
@@thewaywardwind548 southwest doesn’t fly the max 7 yet
@@maxsaviation9512 it does and has been. Flew one last night, super smooth
congrats on youtube full time! good luck!
Actually, the quality control standard ISO9001 states that any change brings with it both opportunities, AND new risks as well. So it is paramount to make a risk analysis that come with the new changes in the cockpit... There are new bennefits, but also things could go wrong as well from all new reasons. So these free discussions are quite useful, they are in fact making a necessary risk analysis , absolutely useful for improvement. If new risks surpass the beneffits, better not to make the change at all
Airbus had that issue once of their planes.
One A330 crasched in the woods due to such an issue during a flyby on an airshow.
This is something that has to be tested to the limit before implementing it in the fleet.
ISO9000 isn't a "quality control standard", it's about quality _management systems_ . Huuuuge difference. QC is about reactively finding errors (and it doesn't get more reactive than waiting for a plane to crash) whereas a QMS (which incorporates Quality _Assurance_ as well as Quality _Control_ ) is about preventing errors in the first place. Interestingly, the current incarnation of ISO9000, 2015, is the first to embrace the notions of what they term "risk-based thinking"
@@obelic71 except that that's BS, first off it was an A320 not an A330, second off, the pilot didn't study the terrain properly to prepare for the maneuver, as well as completely ignoring all the Airbus and Airline imposed safety regulations on the maneuver and minimums. He sunk way below 100 feet, afaik pitched up too far and then, as evidenced by the black box data, failed to power up the engines quick enough to do a terrain escape maneuver (which was also because he failed to follow procedure and instructions to actually study the surrounding terrain). He crashed the plane into the mountain through sheet incompetence and his disregard of the rules
@@jimbrownza Yes! How does anyone make that mistake??
@@HandmadeDarcy ~~ poor training - or sheer arrogance (along with ignorance) - or all of the above ..
I feel like Delta should just order more of the A321 Neo’s lol
Yeah, Airbus is actually focusing on innovation just like Boeing back in the day, Boeing is all about maintaining profit margins now.
Although I like the 737's aggressive design a lot better.
I have flown in 737 max some times and to me it is an increadibly good plane as a passenger
@@SulixD Thats because of the interior, not the avionics or safety.
If Airbus added the max internals to the NEO, you'd never bat an eye XD
The problem with ordering more A321s is that Airbus's delivery schedule is full and it would take several more years to get those planes than for Boeing Max aircraft to be delivered. Boeing needs to replace its aging 700-NGs ASAP.
A Happy 2023 New Year Guys I'm watching this Video Topic on Boeing 737 Max Family of Jets which I'm watching right now Awesome Video Coby Explains nuff respect to all your Videos on Aviation man keep going man Dream Big on Aviation 100%
Great video! Very insightful! Thanks.
Flew the 737-200 as a FO . Wow solid aircraft, durable, and safe. That standard is gone down today, despite avionics that can virtually do everything, in auto land. Flying now as a old timer, I just get the feeling that my composite aircraft I fly is an experiment for the engineers, and all about money and saving a buck. Safe enough, but … Just my thoughts as a 20k hour guy . Level Wings crew , CAVOK .
The 737-200 has nowhere been near safe. Under the circumstances of its time it was at most average regarding the safety. According to Wikipedia accident list:
B737-100/200: approx. 2900 deaths
B737-300/400/500/700/800/Max: approx. 2350 deaths.
Regarding the numbers build, number of flights and accidents you can still claim that the B732 is not much unsafer than the 737Max at the current time.
@@andreasfDE the pre-max 737 is also the most flown airliner of all time, by a wide margin. If you look at hull losses per flight hour, you will see it near the bottom.
There are some planes that have never had a crash at all, 747-8, 787, A380, A340. If you fly thousands of those for 50 years, you are going to start seeing a loss rate. Obviously the -100 and -200 have more accidents than the newer 737s. Also, flying generally has become safer for all aircraft types with better ATC control and upgrades.
Also, how is it useful to count number of deaths? When a cargo plane crashes is that somehow different than a passenger plane because only 2 or 3 people die? Does the 2 crashed planes that killed 550 people in Tenerife somehow outweigh a dozen smaller planes? Do we rate the 747 as a dangerous plane even though the communications screwup could have happened to any plane that day?
Good job Coby, very well explained. It all boils down to money & politics.
And not looking out for safety. They just wanna be the best when they can actually compete against the a350. The 777x tried so hard to be a350XII and yet it’s always so far
@@RAVIOLIdS Clarify your nonsensical babble, please!
Congratulations on going full-time with RUclips coby
I was on a southwest 737 700 last night... It was awesome too.... late flight from Vegas, only 60 people onboard.. got my own whole aisle
A system somewhat similar to MCAS, the stick nudger, had been installed on the B707-400 due to a tendency to pitch up while approaching a stall in Flaps 1 config. Also this system had inputs into the elevator and not the stabilizer, it’s function is similar to MCAS: When active it pushes the control column forward and also reduces the load on the column.
The "stick nudger" on the 707 was nothing at all like MCAS, not even close. Without MCAS the 737 Max "Unflyable Pig Series" is a complete death trap. Ask Lion and Ethiopian.
@@rorykeegan1895 Talkin chit again as the first crashed max had been recovered the previous day by a pilot that knew how to fly a plane, and EASA certified the plane without the MCAS system !!! Know what you are babbling about !!!
Even the A-10 has a system similar to MCAS. It's called SAS for Stability Augmentation System. It's purpose is to compensate for the tendency of the A-10's nose to come up when the gun is fired. Without SAS during a long burst only the first few shots would hit the target. Then as the burst continues the subsequent shots will go higher and higher over the target. SAS senses that the nose is going up and then it flutters the elevator to hold the nose down to keep the gun on target throughout the entire burst. Unlike MCAS SAS uses a gyro to sense the pitch changes instead of using an AOA sensor.
@@rorykeegan1895
Um, Greg Fieth is world's apart on intelligence from you Hoss.
Maybe you should hear what he has to say about who crashed these two aircraft.
@@wilburfinnigan2142
100% correct Wilbur. 👍
Recently i flew from Bergamo to Valencia as a passenger with this airplane and it was a very turbulent and quick descend to the Valencia Airport.Somehow Ive thought that pilots have more problems to controll this aircraft as it does what it wants at some Point .
Very honest and accurate take on Max situation atm. I agree with Southwest pilots having a common cockpit is way more important to safety than EICAS 😉.
I operate an ice cream bicycle and whenever I get an equipment upgrade I spend the afternoon reading the manual and learning the differences, which is far more then what Boeing offers 😂
Well … get some rest !
Then or Than?
@@CougarCat21 who cares I’m dyslexic. Would you yell at deaf people for being deaf?
So who cares about your story too then! Don't want to admit own mistake yet finding fault with me.
@@CougarCat21 when you are dyslexic they’re are know spelleding mistakes, which is my point, you don’t know who is English as a Second Language or who has Dyslexia just the same as you don’t know that someone is deaf, going around correcting people was your mistake from the beginning and not a productive way to live your life. I will defend being Dyslexic and proud of it
Congrats on doing youtube full time Coby. Your videos are the best
Your video is well done on many levels! Congrats on your venture into full time RUclips. I hope you do well :)
NO IT IS NOT WELL DONE … THIS YOU TUBE PERSON IS EXTREMELY UNINFORMED !!!!
@@ChasOnErie Don’t tell me, tell someone who gives a shit what you say!
Excellent work brother
Excellent video!
I hope the FAA is requiring triple redundancy of the attitude indicators for certification
There was no surprise, they were always supposed to get an exemption. The original expectation was that they wouldn't need an extension and all the planes would be certified by then. There is next to no way they would have forced a second cockpit and a type split, that creates to many street issues of it's own
Thanks Mate 👍
I have a flight tomorrow from Miami on 737 Max 8 AA. I love watching these videos but will keep you guys updated on flight experience 😅
Let's make it short: money counts more than safety. 😵💫
EICAS in all four MAX variants should be the safest option? More training of course, but it would keep matching cockpit designs and you have the system everywhere.
I don't trust anyone wearing a mask.
Interesting video and perspective. In the end “The answer to all your questions, is money.” 💰💰💰
First vid I've seen of yours, great vid. Are you Canadian?! Saw a lot of Canadian airlines in this video.
Last plane I enjoyed flying on was the Electra. Which was called a killer when it was knew, but wonderful when it matured.
And maybe the MD80, before started stretching it and jamming in more seats.
The Electra was a fabulous aircraft! Bloody rocket ship ...
You forgot to mention that once the max10 is certified Boeing has a window to update all Max aircraft with the cockpit warning system.. That way they will still have the same commonality!
The amendment allows Boeing three years to retrofit its safety enhancements to all models of the MAX aircraft after the MAX 10 receives certification. From that date, any MAX that is not retrofitted with the improvements will not be able to fly (safely).
They won’t though, they don’t want to do it at all coz it will cost to much money and it’s not a simple plug and play system
@@deanwood1338 They won't have a choice if they want the Max flying in Europe or Canada.
@@YYZatcboy I like to think so dude, but this is Boeing so they will probably weasel out it some how
Still doesn't maintain commonality with the non maxes
I don't think it is possible to do, I remember when 737max was made, they can only make 30% change from 737ng, and they already used that 30%, so if they make more changes, than it will be a brand new type of aircraft, so the pilot will have to study the whole course, not the difference course.
Great Boeing 737 Max information !
“Captain Scully” made me laugh the most I have in months💀
I'm not one to comment on a sponsor, but I was given an Ekster wallet for Christmas maybe 5 years ago. It's still in excellent shape and the card pop-up still works like new. It's a legitimately quality product.
Seems your code is only giving me 5% off. I know you said up to 40% but I am not getting that on anything I want. What product is 40% off? Maybe be more specific about your available discounts.
Yep. Mine too. It's been around the world in and out of my pocket for years.
MCAS has appeared on another Boeing Jet prior to the MAX. It was put on the KC46 (767 tanker) first. It also had built in redundancy and two sensor verification on that application.
There's nothing wrong with MCAS; Boeing just didn't implement it properly on the MAX in a stupid attempt to circumvent pilots needing extra instruction. The unforgivable thing is that Boeing ruthlessly deleted redundancy to be able to circumvent that extra instruction, knowing that they broke the rules with that and therefore just as knowingly put crews and passengers in danger.
@TJ Roelsma the plane doesn't NEED MCAS at all. It was put there to make it perform like thr NGs initially with a g meter reading and AOA. But as you said Boeing pulled a Boeing and the rest is history. The plane can fly perfectly safe without MCAS! As Cobey pointed out the additional training costs associated with the MAX not flying exactly like the NG as Boeing promised is what ultimately drove its inclusion.
@@tjroelsma Having to have MCAS to make a plane flyable in the first place tells you the basic design is a pigs ear.
@@NovejSpeed3 It does use two AoA sensors now, and an artificial calculated horizon. This gives majority logic to calculate elevator trim to then offset the CG. The center of gravity is no longer neutral due to longer pylons and forward placement of engines. So yes the max does need constant trim.
@@rorykeegan1895 I would have put it a bit more subtle, but yeah, it's far from optimal. Boeing tried one time too many to breathe new life into the old airframe that is the 737 and it backfired on them.
As a mechanic EICAS is unbelievably helpful. I think every plane should have one
Have you thought about joining a site like Nebula? I really see you doing well on there and would love to support you in that way!
"Did the 737 Max just become dangerous again?"
I don't see a lot of correlation (if any) between that title and the content in the video. I think you should change the title because in a big part of your video you haven't explained anything dangerous about Congress giving the Max 7 and 10 a waiver but instead you've actually praised Congress for exempting the two Max models.
I'd like to correct a fallacy presented here. I've been a travel agent for 50+ years and once airlines raise fares, even if the reason for that increase (say, fuel cost) ceases to exist I've never seen any airline anywhere to lower their fares other than temporary fare sales.
Actually MCAS was not introduced with the 737-MAX, as it was already installed on the KC-46 (a military 767 variant). The difference is that on the KC-46 it was installed properly with redundancy at data from independent sources.
Well analyzed.
The piece that has really always been missing in flight automation is the ability for flight systems to self diagnose conflicting flight data to pinpoint and highlight exact system malfunction throughout. So this is a money decision that is just another step backward.
Well, here in Australia our flagship carrier is Qantas (who have been recently awarded the safest airline in the world). What's their position on the 737 MAX? They've opted not to purchase the 737 MAX but instead, they're going with the Airbus’ A320neo and A220.
That pretty-much sums up how safe Qantas thinks the MAX is.
I doubt that decision is made on safety grounds for it would not be possible to introduce an aircraft with known safety flaws. Quantas' decision was likely owing to the backlog of orders and questioning realistic deliveries of new aircraft. But, let's be real, the A320neo is far superior. Not sure about the A220 compared with Boeing.
Greedy decision makers go behind money.
Qantas doesn’t have the 737 MAX.
@@radhakrishnannair2143 "Greedy decision makers go behind money"
- You must be referring to Boeing and their decision not to tell anyone about the problems with the MAX, in order to make money
@@Cal90208 Correct. And they never will.
I love how well they are selling 😄
I still think that having several different versions of the 737 cockpit in the fleet would be a bad thing. When you realize that Southwest pilots can fly several different versions of 737 in A SINGLE DAY, having several different versions of cockpit annunciators could make the situation MORE DANGEROUS.
As long as they have the extra AOA sensors and the neutered MCAS, I think they will be fine.
Flew the 737max and so far so good.
obviously, unless you can type from the grave
@@ant2312 blah, blah, blah
@@ant2312 why so much hate?
Thanks
👍🏻
Watching this on a max 8 really puts my mind at ease
This aged amazingly!!!!!
Actually MCAS existed because of the KC46 which is a Boeing 767-200 fuel tanker. It was meant to help the aircraft cope with shifts in CG as it fueled other aircraft on mission.
Ah but on the Max they depended on a single sensor where on the KC's they had multiple inputs. Also they are not even based on the same architecture, the KC46 is a modified wide body 767 while the Max is a narrow body 757. The KC46 being a military craft did not have the energy savings requirements the commercial airlines demanded, and do not have to meet the same certification standards the FAA requires for passenger jets, so the engines are different. Where the new energy efficient engines on the Max passenger jets are much larger and had to be mounted almost entirely forward of the wings and higher to avoid dragging them on the runway, thus changing the aerodynamics entirely to a more unstable configuration that required dependency on MCAS. This is comparing apples to oranges.
@@MAtildaMortuaryserver your all over the place on that. The max is a 737 not a 757. My comment is in response to Coby saying that no other Boeing aircraft used or uses MCAS. The 737 MAX requires MCAS because of the larger heavier engines p
Being placed more forward and higher on the main wing due to low ground clearance on the 737. The KC46 needs it due to shifting fuel loads as it does its mission. The 737 max needs it because of the different location of the engines on the max which makes it fly different to the 737NG. MCAS was installed on the 737 Max to make it exhibit the same Flight characteristics as the 737NG.
@@antonyh37 Sorry about that, meant 737, but the bottom line is the configuration of the Max is inherently unstable which is why the MCAS was required. It was just really poor judgement on the part of Boeing to not use redundant sensors, to not require better training for pilots, thought that really was the FAA bowing to pressure to exceed to demands from Boeing and the airlines, as well as certain political entities. Funny what the profit motive can make people do. About the time Boeing shifted it's headquarters to Chicago from Seattle the bean counters took over and profit became the highest priority. Now they are moving to Arlington in Virginia presumably because that is the nexus of corporate/government rule in the US now. It is a sad state when profit takes precedent over people's lives. Sadder when government allows it. I have not flown on a Max and never will. Boeing deserves to go the way of Chrysler.
I feel like “it might confuse pilots” was used on safety equipment for automobiles at some point.
I'm not a pilot.. i only work on and operate large equipment from a 100,000 lbs to 2 million lbs and anything that makes trouble shooting easier and simpler to explain is a plus.. having one master caution light for 20 different faults or fault codes than an actual fault display showing up in words what it actually is when time is of the essence is way easier..
This is correct. It does not make sense to put new features in two variants of a type. All variants of a type should work the same way.
Use to love Boeing and currently in the process of getting my CPL and I have decided I will be going to the Airbus A320 for my type rating. I just can’t trust Boeing anymore with how dodgy they seem to have gone.
Quite an inflamed sense of self importance eh? We’re waiting for you to fly us around.
@@sumerdatta1476 not quite.. it’s called a valid opinion on a video about a company which is putting pilots like myself and passengers at risk. how is it self importance because I said my feelings on a matter? Not very bright are you?
Why are Boeing putting you and pilots at risk just because of how Doggy they have become? why should that question you? you should do that to Airbus as well with how dodgy they have also become
With everyone being dodgy might as well travel to places via ships
Boeing has been captured by Wall Street and is being squeezed like a cash cow. It is no longer a company where quality conscious employees made sure the work was done properly. These days poor quality is the norm and their jets are becoming too dangerous to ride for my taste. I make sure that I choose airlines accordingly.
My takeaway is to continue choosing A321 flights vs Max. I find the cabins to be nicer anyway. JetBlue's new 321Neos are wonderful. I'd fly a MAX but only when necessary. On a recent trip I did MAX8, 320Neo, 320Neo, 321Neo. The MAX flight was easily the noisiest and least pleasant although only 47 minutes long.
Agree. The 737 is just from a different generation
MAX was noisy? I thought it was very quiet as a passenger. Noisy would be the 707. If the MAX is too noisy, idk how you're gonna survive the Boeing 757...
@@SSAviation737 Compared to an A320neo, it is noisy.
@@SSAviation737 The A350 vs 777 debate is the same. Tiple is a nice plane, but louder. So if i plan on longhaul, i'll try to book tickets with flying on a 350.
@@opalrx7 fair. imo i'd fly the louder plane.
That’s so funny you said that thing how southwest pilots may get confused what plane they fly. Back in 2017 when southwest just got the max I had flown on one for the first leg of my trip after I got off and on my connecting flight the 737-800 looked the exact same and the pilot I asked looked around for a minute before he said no not a max LOL.
Yes it could be confusing. Since December someone got a Tesla 3. Then he was offered to drive his wife Dodge SUV few days ago, and the ball game changed. Specifically the different ways you use the break between gas and Tesla cars. So I go alone with Boeing and the carriers on how training or the use of different cockpits would not only increase training and all sorts of costs, but it’s a risk for errors and confusion too.
Do you think that Southwest's point to point system was a big part of the problem with the holiday disaster? I've heard that due to the cascading cancellations, pilots and planes were often not where they needed to be and this caused Southwest to have to cancel flights. Were airlines that use the hub and spoke system at an advantage?
Southwest has an old software system that performs rescheduling and it couldn't handle the increased number of reschedulings needed due to the storm and so many employees unable to get to work or get there on time so it crashed. They couldn't do it manually so they shut down totally to reset everything.
Were airlines that use the hub and spoke system at an advantage? Yes! The cascading cancellations were a direct result of the Southwest's point to point scheduling system. Given that we are going to see more frequent and more severe disrutions caused by climate degradation, Sothwest's system will break down more frequently and will cause much more damage than we have seen this time. Improving the scheduling system will never overcome this fundamental flaw.
No. I work in the operations center of a US airline, and I believe this is overrated. Planes don't shuttle back and forth nearly as much as they used to, among any carrier. More importantly to this particular meltdown, CREW don't shuttle back and forth all that much. Southwest's operation collapsing would have happened regardless of whether they operated point-to-point. Their tech stack is completely obsolete and that's the fundamental cause. Plenty of point-to-point operations recovered easily from that storm, and plenty of hub-and-spoke operations had serious issues with it. It all comes down to pre-planning, and then flexibility on the day of. Southwest had neither and paid the price. Some others only had one, and took more time than needed to recover. Others had both and were recovered as soon as the weather was good.
@@davemiller6055 Well, maybe the rescheduling problem did not have a solution
@@j11994466s Stop!
We're having super progress! Now were talking about safety. Not doing anything about it, but we're talking! Amazing. That silver lining is such a cope. The 737MAX is still as flawed today as the day it was launched, the main difference is that pilots are now aware of the MCAS and the optional extra vane is comes pre-installed. MCAS can still activate right after take-off, which is a terrible, terrible design. But hey. It's a "win for consumers". Good grief.
RUclips recommends me this video the same day I'm doing my recurrent 737 max - ng differences CBT training with my company..
thank you, I am flying today with a beoing 737 max from munich to copenhagen 🤪
Wouldn't trust Boeing. Seems to me their way of ensuring safety is putting passengers at risk first. Remember the 737 Rudder hardover issues that brought down 2 planes and almost the third, kept saying no problem until the problem is found by investigators and the 2 MAX crashes.
Not to mention the issue with the number 3 engine detaching and bringing down number 4 engine along with it (Happened with 707s and 747, the latter flight 1862)
Airbus doesn’t seem trustworthy either if they also have safety issues and overlook possible flaws in things such as their landing gears.
@user-rv3mq4no9j The rudder hardover issue was super hard to catch though, it boggled the investigators for ages until they managed to catch it with a cold switch/hot hydraulic fluid test and then the switch reversing was discovered.. Mind you, I completely agree on Boeing, when they absorbed McDonnell Douglas they really took on their crummy safety culture and the whole penny-wise-pound-foolish pinching attitude that they and so many other companies have embraced does nothing for my confidence. Then again, neither does the self-created pilot shortage or the airlines lobbying for single pilot crews. Brr.
Having flown both airplanes with EICAS and without, I believe EICAS does increases safety and simplicity. On the other hand the change would have to come to ALL MAX aircraft both in the line and new ones, otherwise it would be detrimental to safety and increase workloads and training.
Before I flew the 737 I was flying Embraer Aircraft, which has EICAS, and it’s philosophy is very straight forward and easy to use, I haven’t flown Airbus, but it seems like it’s pretty much the same; everybody in the industry mocks Boeing Pilots for the rudimentary cockpit and 1960’s philosophy, back then EICAS wasn’t a thing, but the arrangement in the cockpit to make everything have a logic is pretty ingenious, and every Boeing pilot is trained to use it that way since the 60s, and everyone is pretty much used to fly those airplanes that way.
I think you should have explained what the EICAS is about; parto of it is essentially a computer representation of every system malfunction in one screen, or at least, that’s what the 737 lacks in comparison to other “more modern” Aircraft, and not in everything, because the newer models already have the “EI” part of “EICAS” (engine-indicating), it’s the CAS that is not represented on a screen (Crew-Alerting System), but it is represented in two separate panels called the “RECALL” panels/switch.
EICAS has the added ability to show any malfunction in a list of items in one screen, where the philosophy on the 737 fleet uses two panels on the glareshield (one for each pilot) with lights that point to a system whether it is malfunctioning or in an abnormal configuration, but it is pretty straight forward to use.
Now, in my own experience, I was reluctant when I made the switch from the Embraer more modern cockpit to the 737 cockpit, and I made the switch to the classics (300-500 variant), but the way the 737 cockpit is laid out is very intuitive, so I can see why it could actually be a risk for safety to have different philosophies for flying the same aircraft, they would have to redesign the whole cockpit for something that is not worth it, because the current system works perfectly, it’s not just about placing another screen.
Possibly the biggest flaw I see on the 737 MAX is the fact that they use pretty much the same airframe for more powerful and bigger engines, and it relies a lot on computers to calibrate its aerodynamics to make it reliable, which is what went wrong with the whole MCAS fiasco, and the fact that they fixed the system and trained the pilots on it doesn’t make up for the fact that that airframe is old, and relies too much on computers, but nowadays which aircraft is not.
Cheers!
the main problem was the new tech that they added to this new plane " MCAS " and not informing or not included on the their training and manual.
I have always avoided flying on the 737 max, even if I have to buy a more expensive ticket on an alternate airline.
I flew in one this past summer.
It’s was the smoothest, quietist, most gentle flight from Seattle to Alaska.
I was terrified at first, but it went well. 🤷♀️ I had a pilot friend I was messaging the whole time who was sharing safety information and tracking the flight on radar.
Actually worse is how they solved the MCAS problem by just letting it deactivate for the rest of the flight after it has been overwritten twice...
This software was installed due to the aerodynamic issues it has because of the bigger engine that sits further forward acting with a huge arm when applied full thrust at low speeds.
Tip: it’s not aerodynamically unstable nor does it act like a huge arm
You realize a lot of other aircraft have engines that far forward - even with the ground clearance?
To misquote JFK, you can't software your way out of a problem you hardwared yourself into.
It's not the thrust, it's the aerodynamic lift by engine nacelle, And still, it's not unstable, it only reduce the force increment (not reduce the force itself) pilot need to pull back to increase AOA, which is required by part25. But even without MCAS, it would only occurs after AOA already above still warning line.
That’s not why the system was installed. It was installed to meet certification requirements to do with stick force. Btw, the placement of the engines had zero bearing on the max crashes
@@ingulari3977 the system was installed because it pitches up *more*, not that it is aerodynamically unstable in a stall, by that logic, NG would be unstable
2:06 MCAS was on other Boeing aircraft before the Max. There was also an earlier system that was similar to MCAS on the 707 si ce the 60s. 🤷♂️ just... thought youd like to know. great video!
One key factor that was a key factor for the Max MCAS troubles. That was South West part in twisting the arms of Boeing to hide the MCAS and allow for no extra pilot training. South West are walking the same mined path as airlines like Valuejet, who worship the low cost model above all else, including safety. It lead directly into the question, what kind of skills set do you need to be CEO of SW? Other than being a miser. and a zeal for short term gains.
Flew it on a Christmas trip with Ryanair (EI HEY) to Carcassone, France. It was one of the craft originally off the line in 2019, but parked up all that time since at Boeing. Even allowing for the fleecing mentality of the carrier, it was the most cramped plane I've ever been on. As for the centrally placed double toilet at the rear of the plane, it was a complete joke. I'm a biggish guy but I've never had to squeeze myself into a loo so badly just to have a pee. The toilet at the front was just as constricted.
But, as user-ib2vi8ge9g points out, it's a 1960s fuselage and a design that's coming up to sixty years old which, if you'll pardon the pun, is a ridiculous stretch of time in which to keep a mach going. Thinking back, actually, I realise I've not flown a 737 in years.
Speaking of fleecing, I hope Boeing get taken to the cleaners big time and that the families of the victims get all the compensation they deserve.
What this once great company got up to was simply criminal, in my opinion.
Criminal indeed. Please view the following documentaries on Boeing's malpractices.
Assembled with faulty parts: ruclips.net/video/rvkEpstd9os/видео.html ruclips.net/video/IaWdEtANi-0/видео.html
GREAT OBSERVATIONS
The real answer would be dangerous STILL. The underlying issue is never addressed. MCAS should just have been taken out and pilots should simply have gone in for retraining.
Wasn't MCAS introduced because of the unavoidable changes in handling resulting from attaching new, more fuel-efficient but also bigger engines onto an airframe that was originally designed with a small ground clearance for ease of maintenance? If I'm right then MCAS has to be in place on the MAXes.
Plus, because of pressure from certain airlines, Boeing were determined that extra simulator training would not be proposed under any circumstances. It's all about money saving measures, not technology. Which ultimately, of course, is aabout how much the public are prepared to pay for what degree of safety.
watch full video,, this is just a thumbnail bait for airbus fanbois,,,in this video he didnt talk about safty/deficiency of max rather he talked about certification issues due to cockpit system…thesedays evry aviation channel just using thumbnail bait to attract airbus fanbois😅😅😅
@@michaelg3855 Boeing did screw up big time, they messed up , but saving on pilot training costs is not a bad thing itself, even airbus makes sure little/ no added training is required when moving from the 320ceo to the NEO.
@@michaelg3855 A "Wheelie warning" would have done the same thing, alerting the pilots and allowing them to put the nose down a bit if they felt it was necessary. It's not necessary to ignore pilot input and dive into the ground.
@@michaelg3855 yeah, due to the bigger more fuel efficient engines the plane would pitch up higher than usual because the 737’s where originally not designed with this large engines in mind. So to combat that without airlines needing to train there pilots boeing fitted them with mcas that was supposed to pitch the aircraft down, which it in 2 instances did very effectively. but i agree with you, the pilots should just have gotten thier training instead of boeing claiming it’s not needed.
Support coby guys like and share his videos
I already said that boeing and airbus have a duopoly in the aviation market and they certainly make it impossible for new players to enter and can do anything to prevent losses . Now safety and consumer is not the biggest priority for boeing .
Not that pilots not well understood MCAS, but the fact that boeing tried to hid it from everyone in order to market MAX to airlines as perfectly the same to older 737 and assured them there's no need to retrain pilots
Not going to sell many of the 7 and 10 versions in Europe as they won't be allowed over here without the Ecas system as I understand it.
Do you know any different 😏
@@ingulari3977 did you wear your depends? These planes are extremely safe. The problem with the two crashes were really crews that were not experienced enough to fly these advanced airplanes. The carriers get cheap on purchasing training for the new airplanes and and their crews don't have enough flight hours. Yes, Boeing could have done better. However, does Tesla offer training for their advanced cars? Plenty of crashes there.
@@ingulari3977 I have worked in the aviation industry for over 40 years. It's not BS.
@@usnchief1339 This guy comparing cars to planes ... smh. These broken planes were advertised for needing minimum to no additional training to operate it, so Boeing did not mention the new MCAS system. You can't "train" what's not being mentioned. And your so called "extremely safe" planes did not cross-check the faulty sensor data nor had any redundancy, that's some shitty design. And lastly corrupt Boeing overworked their employees which resulted in installing faulty sensors in the first place.
@@SquawkHub ok...lol. 1.3 million die in vehicles annually. Less than 1000 die in aviation accidents. Flying, even in Russian airplanes, is safer than driving.
@@usnchief1339 and why is that car to aviation comparison relevant?
Back to aviation: In the last 3 years we had 3 major accidents of bigger commercial aircrafts (> 100 killed) with a technical issue as the main reason for the crash: 1x 737-89P, 2x 737 MAX8
And the 2nd 737 MAX crash was the most tragic accidents of the aviation industry in the last decade. Boeing knew that the MCAS in combination with a missing training/information for the pilots was the reason for the first accident and they did nothing to prevent it from happening again. :(
"MCAS is designed to automatically pitch the nose of the plane down when it's in danger of stalling"
Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS)
The system was primarily implemented to make the aircraft feel and preform similar enough to a standard 737 as to avoid procuring a different "Type Rating Certificate" which would cause substantial additional expense to airlines in pilot training.
This is cause by the fact that the MAX8 uses larger engines which required them to be mounter mor forward and up higher to make ground clearance. This change in engine size and position caused a "pitch up" moment during heavy thrust too far out of character with the regular 737 hence MCAS was born.
Great video. Greetings from a 737 pilot.
Instead of EICAS (pronounced eye-kas), the 737 uses 56 year old backlit stencil technology! It's old, but it works.
Ah yes......the old six-packs. Dating all the way back to the beginning of the 737.
Although I appreciate the info, the lack of tribal knowledge on how EICAS is actually pronounced is off-putting. It’s like we’re having an outsider tell us our news. But again, good industry info.
@@clevelandaeromotive i guess for the beginners perhaps, new people are introduced to aviation each day..............the newer community will need a thorough up ig, or else they may go on butchering names of aviation terms
True statement
@@clevelandaeromotive I don't understand. Your lack of knowledge is off-putting? I guess it can be for anyone. No idea what the outsider comment is about. Best thing for lack of knowledge is education. You're welcome!
You left out one major reason for not requiring the new system on the -7 and -10. The law was never intended to impact these aircraft. The implementation deadline was originally set to 12/27/22 because those MAX aircraft were scheduled to be certified by that date. Covid and supply chain issues extended the development and certification process beyond the laws original deadline.
Correct, it only needs to affect other planes because they are the ones that flew into the ground... Not the Max. 😂
@gojitmal1978 it was intended to affect all aircraft developed after the Max series.
@@terrycampbell4387 right, because it was Airbus that crashed those 2 planes... Not Booing... We need to fix what's not broken but not what's broken.
They gifted a lot of money to Congress. Don't let that fool you.
True, but Boeing has made a series of attempts to use politics to save chump change while opening up the risk of seriously harming Boeing. The Military MCAS already had redundancy and manual override, Bombardier was pushed into Airbus by Boeing abusing the trade commission. Canada is pissed and bought f35s and the list goes on. Much of these issues end up being about public confidence, which makes a critical difference. Security is at the core of the airline industry and you don't want a reputation of bucks before safety. Perception will not favour Boeing if a couple more MAXs fall for any reason whatsoever.
At the end, the decision is still to save cost at boeing and not to implement the safety measures derived from their failure. Hopefully the congress has an agreement with to somehow bring the safety feature into the cockpit in the future ... something like retrofit or whatsoever ...
Well, this video aged well after the Alaska Airlines case