How a Tiny Airline Solved Aviation's Hardest Problem
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- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2024
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The Truth About the 10-Abreast A350:
• The Truth About the Ne...
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Chapters:
Intro - 0:00
History of Low Cost Travel - 0:51
Challenges of Long-Haul, Low Cost - 2:59
A New Market Entrant - 4:42
Frenchbee's Innovative Approach - 5:35
But...how bad is 10-Abreast? - 8:40
Outro - 12:03
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The world of commercial aviation has never been more crowded. Over 5,000 airlines operate globally, filling pretty much every conceivable niche. But while airlines have mastered dozens of business models, one segment has remained largely untouched: long-haul, low-cost travel. Breaking into this market has proven difficult, and one might even say it's the final frontier of commercial aviation. But against all odds, one airline has found a legitimate foothold in this segment. So, who are they, and how exactly are they doing it? Let me explain…
#Airbus #A350 #Frenchbee #Aviation 
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Source:
Aviation Week & Space Technology.
Jens Flottau
Airbus may have to ask itself some questions. In particular, industry sources have been worried about the changing commercial strategy of its engine provider, RollsRoyce, which has adopted a tougher stance with a stronger focus on profitability versus market share. Disagreements over premature engine removals for maintenance and engine service cotracts frequently slow aircraft deals, but RR's new position may have a negative impact on A350 sales. If the A350 continues to lose more ground to the better selling Boeing 787, then Airbus will be compelled to act with regards to another engine provider such as GE.
Airlines operating the A350 only use the Rolls Royce Trent XWB engines currently and have no competitive engine such as General Electric.The XWB engines struggle to go 4 years before they need to be removed for overhaul because of premature wear to engine blades in the Intermediate Pressure Compressors. The EP3 build standard for these engines which RR refuses to improve needs an overhaul every 4 to 5 years, or about 3,500 cycles which ends up costing operators of A350s more. GE engines of equivalent thrust have much more life time on wing and Airbus needs to either switch engine providers or at least have a competitive engine such as GE on the A350.
As long as it's not cheap flights for 50p.
ruclips.net/video/HPyl2tOaKxM/видео.html
I'm a very over weight(21Kg)! And I would seriously see no problem to pay for two seats. if it's realy just 199 € more for a transatlantic flight... also double the luggage capacity...
Yet I currently fit even in small seats! But I have been overwheight more than 60Kg in times of my live basically wheighung as much as two people. So doubling the cost would be totally understandable and logic at this point. The problem is, assuming that this police would be in place, currently paying for two seats would not get you a mor ecomfortable seat as a overwheight guy would basicall sit on the edge of two seats and would have two backrest edges pressed into his back...
for this model to work , It had to be possible to remove a seat and slide one seat in the center of two seat wide gap so that you can enjoy the personal space and still can seat in a regular seat. without bothering anyone. I wonder if First class seats would basically solve the "two small seat" problem. I never flew 1.st class, but I Imagine airlines design 1st class seats in a way that they never have to tell rich people that they should have booked two seats. So maybe overwheight people could just book a 1st. class ticket. I don't know.
Also what realy sucks flying in economy is not the seat with! it's the people tilting their backrest into your face and the ellbows your neighbours place on the shared ellbow rest.
I think a slight offset in the seats could solve that ellbow intimacy problem...It's like the intirior designers have a cultural blindspot for strangers beeing forced to rob their bodies at each other.
France having a lower obesity rate than most G20 countries probably makes this model more viable.
I'm not obese, 190 cm and 94 kilos, I'm just larger than average.
@@davidsasse40you would be fine in frenchbee a350
And if you're naturally muscular with broad shoulders?
@@saumyacow4435 I'm a pretty big guy, 6'3" - not obese, but not skinny either. If you stay out of the front row, and hopefully sit next to someone small, you'll do ok on French Bee. If you're sitting next to other broad shouldered people, it's an issue. If you choose the front row though, the tray tables and screens for those seats are in the armrests making the seats even narrower - I could fit into that seat, but just barely, but I would've been sore for a month afterwards doing that for 8 hours. I had to switch to a non-front-row seat on both directions, and it was ok, but noticeably tight.
@@saumyacow4435I agree, what about guys like me who are super vascular and be chiseled due to my remarkably low body fat percentage, which really helps to highlight my thick V which points downwards toward my dense and tastefully-sized wiener. Would I fit comfortably?
I've flown French Bee 5 times to and from Paris and San Francisco. Discovered them by accident when looking for a cheap return flight from Crete. Eva Air from Heraklion to Orly, and French Bee direct from Orly to SFO. That first trip impressed me so much that I booked 2 subsequent return flights from SFO to Paris. Each was a surprisingly good experience considering the lower price. The only disappointment was the last return flight from Paris where I was sharing a row of 3 seats with two other very wide-shouldered men. Poor guy in the middle had a very uncomfortable 10-hour flight... But service has always been very good. I would definitely consider flying with them again at the right price.
Well sorry. I am one of those men and why seat width and not leg room is my #1 consideration.
Been there, done that. That's one reason why I always choose an aisle seat.
As a 6'3" guy who's flown French Bee from SFO to PPT (and back), the seat width AND leg room are important to me. The width was noticeably smaller than most, but the slightly extra leg room was appreciated - there's nothing like your knees bashing into the aluminum bar for the tray table for 8 hours. I had an isle seat which helped a lot, but I chose bulkhead seats thinking the extra leg room would be great, but those seats are crazy narrow because the tray tables and screens for that front row is in the armrest, making the seats EVEN NARROWER YET. I had to switch out of that front row on both flights, but the flight attendants were very nice and it wasn't a big deal. As a tall person, I'm really tired of being crammed into less and less space all the time.
@@gorak9000 I suppose you'll have to work on your carreer so you can afford business class in the future. Joking my man but business models can't accomodate everybody.
Low cost long haul is a tough business. I flew for *two* such companies which went broke, while my die hard colleagues went to a third low cost / long hail airline, which also went bankrupt. The efficiency factors you mentioned were used all three.
I wish all the best to FrenchBee. Hang tough, and stay focused on yield.
Using new aircraft may be essential. The B787 and A350 are efficient and reliable. The struggling companies of my experience leased L-1011s 767s, which were mx nightmares as they aged.
Delays and cancellations can hurt an otherwise good company's reputation and finances.
@@philipcollier7805 Yeah, French Bee uses exclusively A350s. (as mentioned around ~6:00)
@@philipcollier7805 which raises the sustainability question of whether A-350 depreciation is sufficiently reflected in ticket price.
another metric thats always different between low-cost and full service is that the seats tend to be less padded and cushioned. This can make or break a flight and is often overlooked compared to other factors such as legroom, pitch and width. I guess its very hard to measure
@ollie2074 Considering the cost of airplane seats, it is surprising that most are extremely uncomfortable. It has been years since I flew Frontier, but they had the worst seats on the planet.
@@vizzini2510Frontier & Spirit are the air taxis. Their seats are not comfortable & engineered for weight reduction. Best for short routes, as your body can determine what that is. BTW, loading at the end of the line helps me shave off time on those padded boulders LOL
I’m wondering the same thing. I had the opportunity to fly Frontier with extra leg room but the same padded boulders for seats. I’d pay more for quality seats but not for leg room (5’6”) as it’s not valuable for me.
I must be odd, but those highly padded seats are horrible for me.
Recline?
Ive flown FrenchBee twice from LAX to Orly. We’re a family of 4 and we have had nothing but a great experience flying FB. The entertainment selection is great, the food was good, and we were very comfortable, plus arriving at Orly is so much better than arriving at CDG. We’ll be flying FB again most likely next summer on our way to Europe.
By then, the newer driverless metro Line 14 will be open, making the connection between Orly airport and the city centre a lot smoother (and cheaper)
@@Desi365 Paris metro tickets stay 2.1€ and during the Olympics it will be 4€. So no Line 14 will unfortunately make cheaper to go go in the center of Paris.
I think that the slightly narrower seats are likely more acceptable to French Bee's French customers (likely the majority) because France's average Body Mass Index is a 25.3 (ranked 124 out of 196 countries), compared to 28.8 for the USA (ranked 20th), 27.5 (ranked 33rd) for Ireland, and 27.4 (ranked 40th) for the UK. While BMI has its limitations, it was primarily designed to measure the average body mass of populations, which indicates that ranking countries this way is a reasonable thing to do. So if most of French Bee's customers are residents of the Ile de France (the region around Paris) then, they are likely more comfortable in the narrower seats than Southwest's US based customers or Ryan Air's Ireland and UK based customers would be if those airlines had the same width seats.
Not to mention that a French man weighs about 77kg, a French woman 62kg. This compares to 91kg and 77kg for American men and women. This is a lot less weight to carry, and as a result they need less fuel, which is less weight again. So they can carry more passengers at higher density, with fewer disadvantages.
Also Cebu and Scoot carry smaller passengers so can go higher density.
@matthewbohun-aponte6028 I would be curious to see some statistics on the average size of passengers from various countries, particularly on international flights. Clearly, the average American is larger than the average Frenchie, but the "average" American is not necessarily who is flying, especially on international flights. Since there is an inverse relationship between income levels and obesity, it makes sense that flying Americans are smaller than the average American. A NY Post article reported that 40% of Americans have never left the USA. I would guess that those 40% would be concentrated among the poorer Americans, and therefore more prone to obesity. Personally, seat width is far more important than leg room. I only fly first or business class, but on those occasions when I am forced to fly a single class Barbie jet for a short connection, I have never had problems fully extending my legs (5'10"). Width is another issue. While I could stand to lose a few pounds in my hips, there is nothing I can do to reduce my 21" shoulders, which clearly cannot be contained in a 16.5" seat.
@@Secretlyanothername Some years ago, a budget carrier trialled seat price based on body weight. It never really took off due to passengers seeing it as a stigma and the inability of airports to weigh the passengers. Child prices also created a problem.
Don't forget that an A350 10 abreast, the seats will be hardly more narrow that standard layout on the Dreamliner which was designed as a 2-3-2 but the airlines put 3-3-3 in them anyway. Maybe people shouldn't get fat
People who book flights on French Bee, only care about the low price and the destination they’re going to. They might not even be aware what aircraft they’re flying on. Only us avgeeks care about seat widths, pitches, etc. heck we even care about lavatories now lol. So not surprised. Good video man 👍
You are wrong !
I fly from Tahiti to Paris round trip every two month (PPT/ORY/PPT)
The one way is 21h00 in the seat…..
On the same route, UNITED-AIR FRANCE-AIR TAHITI NUI.
FRENCHBEE is not only the best price on this route but the best seat too !!!!
Next trip on Oct 9th, will be FRENCH BEE of course 😂
I think long haul, folks care, because you're on the plane for so long and probably want to get some sleep.
You may not be able to quantify why your flight was miserable but you'll know it was miserable.
Y’all are forgetting the travellers don’t care about the journey even if it feels miserable. They care for their destination and they spend for their experiences on the destination. Yes they suffer from that tight space but guess what? They book again. Cuz the plane is not the place they wanna have fun on.
@@keisuke5468Exactly. I'm minimum wage starting out, but I want to see sights and have experiences now not when I can afford a comfortable seat and included meals.
Did FrenchBee pay for this 😂?
Myheritage certainly did
😂
Sounds like it lol.
U sound like a jealous competitor , what airline u work for?
@@JohanRfrlhs yeah didn't you know MyHeritage owns FrenchBee? lol jk
I had a wonderful time aboard French Bee from Ory to SFO! I would do it again in a heartbeat. The service was phenomenal
Just an observation:
There has always been a second or third French-registered carrier on the Paris to Tahiti route (which involves a stopover, usually on the west coast
of North America). Air France and Air Tahiti Nui are the main carriers but there have been other carriers in the past including UTA, Corsair and AOM.
It's not a low-cost carrier, but I've been flying to Iceland quite a bit recently and was reading about Icelandair: their business model is kind of interesting too. All flights (I think) run through Keflavik, and they use exclusively narrow-body jets even on their longest-haul routes (KEF US west coast). They currently use 757-200s and 300s on the long routes, but will be upgrading to the A321XLR in the next few years (slight range increase, big fuel efficiency gain). A look into airlines doing intercontinental service with narrowbodies could be interesting-- it sounds like it offers some benefits in terms of fuel efficiency and enabling airlines to serve lower-demand routes (although not necessarily ones that translate into lower fares, at least in the case of Icelandair).
I was in their premium economy on french bee and it was still cheaper than economy on a mainline carrier. I would much rather take a premium seat on a lcc than a narrow seat on a proven carrier. Hopefully I'll be able to fly on frenchbee again in the future.
I was in economy (SFO -> PPT) and premium economy (PPT -> SFO) and there's literally no difference. Even switching seats when I checked in on the return flight didn't cost anything. They were going to charge my gf to switch seats too, but the check in agent moved hers for free when we checked in. If you're a bigger person, just stay out of the bulkhead row - the tray tables and screens in the armrests make those seats EXTRA NARROW.
@@gorak9000 Not saying you are wrong but that's incredible hard to believe...what's the price increase for Premium Economy buying you?
I just flew French Bee between LAX and ORY in late September, and was lucky to to get accepted for an upgrade to Premium Blue on the flight to ORY (after I placed a low bid!)
In Premium Blue, I got a wide seat with lots of leg room. While I had nobody on the seat next to me, I couldn’t take advantage of that space for sleeping because the separation between the seats is unmovable. I also got two free meals with a wide choice of drinks, including champagne and wine at no extra cost.
In economy, seats are very narrow, making a 12-hour flight a bit tiring. You only get one free meal, with water. Any other drink will cost you.
All in all, the video is spot on and I’ll likely fly French Bee again.
Note: French Bee accepted my upgrade bid on the way over because the Premium Blue section was not full (a Monday flight). Since they had empty seats, it was a win-win decision for them to accept my bid. On the way back, no upgrade as the plane was 100% full (a Friday flight). Morale: if you want good chances for upgrades, do not fly Fridays or Sundays.
The A350 looks stunning when viewed from certain angle.
Thanks for another great, informative video. The fact that you flew the airline yourself lends tremendous credit to this report. I LOVE your videos, keep up the good work my friend. Looking forward to many more in the future.
Japan airlines 787's at 8 abreast in economy versus everyone else.....
They win hands down.
and Japanese people are pretty small too, other that Sumo wrestlers... wtf do they need all that room for?
I love that you actually flew French Bee and made this video. Nice!
Recently did a R/T with French Bee from SFO- PPT in their premium class. Meals are were good and may have been the same as in economy but at no charge, just not sure if it was the same or not. You do pay extra for the amenity kit which I almost never even open when I got one in Premium of First class. Premium on the A350-900 was lovely, comparable to Premium on any other international airline. The sub $2000 r/t flight from SFO-PPT is well worth the extra cost, I'll do it again!
@ak1ranger I did not know they had PE, but I am happy to see the proliferation of PE seating on international flights. That is a long overdue compromise between cattle class and business class. Unfortunately, I have never flown PE, because all my international travel is free with miles, and airlines often charge more miles for PE than Business, so the choice is clear. As for amenity kits, I always chuckle when Business Class reviews focus heavily on the amenity kit. When you are talking about a $4-8K ticket, who cares about the $10 amenity kit? They are extremely wasteful, and most get left on the seat, or tossed in the trash in the terminal. I would prefer if the contents were simply stocked in the galley, so I could request a toothbrush or lip balm if I want that, without also getting face spray, lotion, eyeshades, pen, socks, and all the other crap that I neither need nor want.
I did SFO to PPT on french bee about a month ago. The meal was included in both economy and whatever the middle tier was. There was zero difference between the economy seats and middle tier seats - I switched into the middle class on the way back (didn't cost anything), and it was exactly the same. I certainly noticed the narrow seats, especially if you pick the front bulkhead row where the screens and tray tables are in the armrests. I had to switch seats to get out of the front row in both economy and the middle tier to not be in pain. In a regular (non bulkhead row seat), if you're sitting with other broad shouldered people, it's pretty tight...
@@vizzini2510 I loved PE when if first came out: pay 30-40% for significantly more comfort. Not so impressed now with the price so much higher. But, hey, I don't blame them for pricing it right for the market - they're businesses, meant to make best profit not there to make it cheap for li'l ol' me.
Good point -- I feel tightness at my knees much more intensely than width of the seat -- excellent info!
What’s impressive about French Bee is that unlike other long-haul LCCs, they have no larger, more profitable parent airline to support them. However, I think one real breakthrough in the long haul, low cost segment is Japan’s ZIPAIR. I just used them last month and they have a lot of things going for them. The price wasn’t a bargain, but it was still 20-25% less than legacy airlines at the time I booked. Their economy seats are the same ones used by the likes of EVA Air, Singapore Airlines, British Airways, on their newest aircraft. Qantas is set to use them for their Project Sunrise economy class too I think. Long story short, they’re seats designed for long haul flying, not budget airline ones with little to no features. I had a tablet holder, personal USB and power outlet, with QR codes on the seat back to access the buy-on-board menu, whose prices of those weren’t bad at all either. I also purchased a package bundle that included seat reservation and 12kg of carry-on baggage, perfect for my short trip to Japan, meaning I didn’t need to pay for checked luggage. The crews were nice enough and professional as you’d expect from Japanese airlines. I’d personally stick to legacy carriers to earn miles, but ZIPAIR provided an all-in-all very satisfactory service, that I’d recommend to budget travellers.
French bee is in fact a company owned by the Dubreuil Group, the same owner as Air Caraïbes (an older and well established conventional French Airline that serves overseas territories). They know their business and share a lot of things that can help them grow as a pair :) This might also be a key factor in French Bee’s success
Did the same last month and I was really impressed by zipair
Air Asia X, and the Original Scoot followed the same pvilosophy
Scoot is another alternate to Frenchbee before they got merged with TigerAir. Cebu Pacific also offers long haul to Dubai and Sydney. I recall the larger seat pitch is an IATA requirement for long haul flights (what the crew told me). I always made a point to fly the 5J A330 over the A320s because of this even if the route was 1 hour domestic or 3 hours international only.
That's actually an interesting point because Cebu is one of the only other airlines that operates high density and they're seen a lot of success. But their average mission is quite a bit shorter than FrenchBee's - they do more mid-haul than long haul
scoot wasn't merged with silkair tbh 🤓
@@cobyexplanes Air Asia X is also a good example too, despite the fact that they experienced some financial troubles, they have bounced back and is now profitable. BTW Excellent Video as always.
Scoot is not merged with SilkAir. Singapore Airlines merged with Silkair
@@jerricklim sorry, I meant TigerAir. Thanks for the call out.
Since you're Latvian you should do an in-depth about the flag carrier airBaltic: all-A220 fleet, going through certification Starlink (free & no-registration service will be offered soon), NTFs integrated with their loyalty program, etc.
I'd actually really like to - they're a super interesting airline
I had an amazing experience with AirBaltic flying from/To Riga, the planes were very silent, clean and large leg room and comfy
I didn't know what to think of your channel when you first started but...... nowadays I look forward to your content! Keep 'em comin'!
I fly from Tahiti to Paris round trip every two month (PPT/ORY/PPT)
The one way is 21h00 in the seat…..
On the same route, UNITED-AIR FRANCE-AIR TAHITI NUI.
FRENCHBEE is not only the best price on this route but the best seat too !!!!
Next trip on Oct 9th, will be FRENCH BEE of course 😂
Coby video is 10/10
Calling Southwest a "low cost carrier" is a complete fallacy...American, United, and Delta always match their fares, and more often than not in my rather extensive experience, one or two of them are cheaper to the point that any added fees are offset. I worked for a major carrier for decades, and I can see right through the smoke and mirrors.
It's true that BF has a good cabin layout, in noticed the legroom was bigger than AF or AA and didn't realize the seat was thinner.
However the schedule was horrible during Xmas with close to 3h delay both ways which was a real killer.
True, legroom is more important. But as a big guy, i was flying JetBlue almost exclusively for years as the Airbus and Embraer planes because of their superior seat width over Boeing narrow bodies. If i could sit in an exit row or a seat with fixed sides, rather then armrests, that could work...
Great video! Here's another cost-saving measure that I'd (somewhat jokingly) add.
As someone who speaks both French and English, I've noticed that the ads I've gotten from them are abominable.
1. They're translated literally (word-for-word) from French to English (save on a translator)
2. They used a free voiceover software from 2016 (save on a voice actor)
3. They use stock footage (save on photographer, videographer, and editor costs)
Jokes aside, I am curious to check them out. Thanks again Coby!
Haha maybe they should hire me for their marketing 😂
Hey, I did fly with them to Réunion. Indeed the seat width is the smallest, I am 1m70 and believe me if the passenger next to you is bigger than you, he/she will take over your space... totally agree on leg room though. Food and service is ok . Screen for entertainment on board very responsive, but choice of movie was rather limited to old movies, nothing very recent. Often also French bee ticket price (at least to Réunion) is not really that cheaper to the other non low cost airlines, so it is always worth to compare. but definitely worth if you get a good price for your flight
I flew them from san francisco to tahiti recently - the price was a little better, but I noticed the narrower seat... it sure wasn't $199 one way that's for sure!
Back in April I traveled from DFW to LHR on BA a380 economy which is 10 across, that was the longest 10 hours of my life. Extremely uncomfortable for me and I'm 6'1 220lbs. Last month I traveled from Atlanta to Cape Town South Africa, a 15hrs flight on Delta a350, economy seats 9 across. I know a350 and a380 are different aircrafts, but the 15hrs on a350 was a million times more comfortable than the 10hrs on the a380. Space make a big difference in long distance traveling.
yes, I lost all interest when I learnt it's 3-4-3. At that density standing is more comfortable.
Space for legs , I agree
I had the opportunity to fly with Frenchbee on the Paris-Reunion route, covering over 10,000km with an 11-hour flight duration. Compared to previous Air France flights I've taken on the same route, Frenchbee was decidedly superior, by a factor of ten. The modern amenities of the aircraft, its pressurization, and most notably, the extra legroom, significantly enhanced my comfort. Not to mention their highly competitive pricing.
I always fly French Bee from LAX to Orly and its the best service out of LAX! I have flown all of them and FRENCH BEE is the best of them all. GREAT VIDEO.
I gotta say- the FrenchBee 🇫🇷🐝 livery looks really cool, especially at night.
Fuel burn doesn't increase exponentially with distance, in fact, the it's high at the beginning due to take off, and then it decreases rapidly with distance until it hits the sweet spot (the most efficient range) before it's slowly starts to increase again, for example, the most efficient range for 777 is around 5000 km, (sweet spot)
You’re right for the takeoff. But, the further you want to fly, the more fuel you have to take because you burn fuel to carry the extra fuel you need, so the exponential cost is due to this inevitable fact.
But, you could also say that if you fly farther away you can climb higher for your cruise altitude, which can make a big difference in reducing your fuel consumption. So, as you said, there is a sweet spot for each type of airplanes.
I'll certainly consider them if I ever need to fly to France.
Love your videos. Would be cool to learn more about the A220!
He has done several, just search the channel :)
@@joec1774 I know, I just love to see videos about it so I want more 😂
Great video Coby! Loved it! Also at 0:57 is that a Lufthansa 🇩🇪 747-400! SO LUCKY AND COOL! I will be flying on a 747 400 this winter to Germany and making some behind-the-scenes video there too and I hope your video there comes out very soon. I’m very much looking forward to that! Also regarding today’s video and the main point, is it just the French that are good at long-haul low cost airlines? I say this because you have FrenchBee, Corsair, Air Austral, Transavia and TUI Airlines?? (The French Subsidiary that is) 😂😂 I think that the French have truly mastered this space in aviation, considering what I mentioned above, also have you ever flown with any of those carriers, including FrenchBee? I have yet to fly any French carrier or low-cost French airline, but I hope to do so very soon!
Thanks again for such an excellent video and cheers 🥂 🎉
Your friend
Caleb’s Aviation 😊
Sure is! Got to visit it during a recent trip to Lufthansa. Stay tuned for that video
I would fly this as my size suits legroom over seat width - I wish FrenchBee success as it looks like a nice setup and they operate what I think is the best new WB aircraft around.
Used French Bee this week for 11-hour flight and connected in Paris Orly to Transavia. After the 350-1000, that 737-800 (not fitted with slim seats)'s pitch felt so cramped!!
Great video! Keep them coming; would consume 2-3x more if you could produce the same quality more often! Always look forward to when I see you dropped a new video
If I could pump em out that quick I would - it takes anywhere from 7-14 days to finish one video though. Glad you're enjoying though!
@@cobyexplanesgreat video and also play airlines is a low cost airline and do low cost long haul flights
Would definitely do a video on Play - need to do some digging on what they're doing different that WOW that makes them successful @@jeanetteryan6571
9:35 of course there's hardly any difference when the row is empty
You should test it with 3 men of average size sitting next to each other. Even 10abreast on a380 will cause arm and elbow rubbing. 10abreast on a350 would make your shoulders touch and give you minimal arm movement. People will still be willing to pay less for this though
I concur with you about noticing the seat width differences. I have not flown in a number of years. I took the spouse on a cruise from Hawaii to the French Polynesia. We flew to Hawaii on a 777 and left Tahiti on a French Bee A350. Over time my width has expanded and airlines seats width has retracted. Both planes the seats were a little cramp but I manage both long flights with little discomfort. Now I am surprise to hear that the A350 was designed for 9 row seating and they crammed an extra seat in there. I didn't catch the difference because the 777 had 10 seats per row.
I did the SFO-PPT (and back) on french bee recently. I noticed the narrower seats, especially if you end up sitting by some other "broad shouldered" people. And if width is an issue DO NOT go for the bulkhead seats - the screens and tray tables in the armrests make those EXTRA NARROW!
I've flown FrenchBee from Paris to LA, it was a great airline and smooth ride. Although a budget airline, I felt comfortable in the seat and as you mentioned the service was great too. I would definitely recommend this airline.
Smooth ride ahaha! I'm not sure this could be airline related! Maybe smooth as in no hiccups in your travelling tho :)
@@tenns Sure enough it's not a smooth ride anymore if, say, a cabin door pops out mid flight.
Flew them from SFO to Tahiti, and they are a great airline.
Seat width over legroom any day of the week. Better to knock joints against airline furniture than against another human being
I think they have A330-200 & A330-300 from their older fleet also. But they maintain their A330 fleet really well. You’re right people are getting bigger, maybe they should eat healthier and exercise more to fit in a normal cabin seat so the rest of us don’t have to suffer because someone has no self control with eating.
Yes, I guess Frenchbee is worth it if you are making very long haul flights (eg: Paris-Tahiti or Paris-Reunion) because these 2 routes are not very competitive (like Paris-NYC or Paris-LAX/SFO) and served by few airlines.
Important to note that the parent company of French Bee also owns Air Caraibes which also uses the 3/4/3 seat configuration.
I use to fly on their old A330s and after trying the A350 configuration, I just stopped flying with them. The difference felt huge (while I’m not).
Costwise, there might be an important point missed in the video by not mentioning the affiliation with a non-low cost carrier such as Air Caraibes.
Most long haul low-cost airlines fail when they try to expand too much too fast. French Bee may be doing alright now with their small route network, but if they start thinking they can leverage economies of scale, they could easily join the ranks of Wow and Norwegian.
I was on a French Bee Flight 3 years ago and it was quite good. Sleeping was difficult for me but even in Business Class I cannot sleepe for sure.
Love your work . Very informative . Can u do a review of Australias low cost airline Jet star ? Very few heard of it.
I flew french bee with my family in July 2023. The seats were small but everything else was great. Round trip Newark to Orly$700 in peak travel season.
That is not very cheap
JetBlue is also starting the long haul flight, to London or Amsterdam for example, but they do it with their narrow body A321-Neo's.
Laker Airways were about the first British cut-price no-frills long distance airline from 1977, flying DC10s from London Gatwick to New York Kennedy, marketed as 'Skytrain' for £32.50 one-way in winter and £37.50 in summer. (£180/£207 adjusted for 2023) Wiki has a good article on this service, which sadly only lasted a few years until the Recession of the early 80s.
What it did do was kick the other transatlantic carriers into full competition mode, notably cheap standby fares. My first flight to San Francisco in 1980 was a turn up to the airport, queue, pay and fly fare, and was remarkably good value!
Great job on this one. Love the comparisons👍👍
FrenchBee has another advantage compared to other airlines, it has a sister airline Air Caraïbes, so when there is a grounded airplane or crew, they can exchange their crew/airplane, we are the only one in the world to do that. And that helps reducing delay or even flight cancelation.
Also they employ international pilot rather than French pilot, who have higher salary expectation, also reducing crew costs.
Frenchbee will receive a new A35K in the near future, maybe opening a new route.
Air Transat, a Canadian holiday carrier did the same seat strategy with their A330s. They put 9 abreast instead of the usual 8. The seats were also crammed upon each other and it made for an uncomfortable trip.
Wow, I thought the Hardest problem was the last mile ... or in this case the last 200 miles. It's hard to find flights to the upper part of Michigan like into Pelliton airport ... most just fly into Flint or Detroit ... and it's hard to get to Mammouth CA direct during the slow season or summer ... you always have to go through L.A.
hopefully they can keep going the more low cost competition the better
17.1" and 17.3" width seats are tight enough, never mind 16.7", and this is coming from a tall and slim person. On a long distance journey, I'm more apt to opt for more comfort, not less.
very interesting video. good to understand their value proposition. Nice job understanding the market.
I’ve only been ryanair/easyjet a few times, and found the staff to be good tbh. It’s the kind of passengers they can attract that’s the problem…. !
and of course they are strict on allowances, but they are very clear. Ryanair is extra mean with checkin process too.. so dodgy there!
That’s why A321XLR will be a game changer for what this video is about.
Completely agree that 10 abreast at 32 pitch is totally acceptable
The whole industry is a variation of the sardine can😂 the sardines have no say.
How about Scoot or Jetstar. They seem successful enough with their long haul?
Came here to say the same.
Or German leisure carrier Condor. They've also been perfecting long haul low cost travel flying from Frankfurt to nieche destinations with little to no competition.
or Air Asia or even the new Japanese airline Zipair
Scoot and Jetstar are subsidiaries of Singapore and Qantas - two of the largest and most profitable airlines on Earth. Both are supported up by parent airlines which helps tremendously. FrenchBee doesn't have this type of support
@@cobyexplaneswell FrenchBee is a subsidiary of Air Caraibes actually ! Or rather part of the same group as them (Groupe Dubreuil)
I can give 2 extra ways to reduce cost right there:
1) Fly slower. Modern turbopropeller engines can go to a high enough altitude to be above the weather and to enjoy reduced drag of a thinner air while being much more efficient than jet engines. At abit less than half the speed of a normal jet it is still plenty fast.
2) Do not carry along too much fuel. Land and refuel as often as it is economically reasonable. Having 2 or 3 stops while crossing a whole ocean is understandable acceptable. You can even provide 8 hours of hotel accomodation for the night in an airport hotel on some island. This way you also don't need to carry any food on board. Shipping it all by sea is so much cheaper and the taste is going to be better.
I believe there are other welcome ways to trade time for money as well.
I think you forget something really important with FrenchBee. FrenchBee depend of Dubreuil Group. They are sister-ship with Air Caraïbes. In fact that’s doesn’t change a lot with other low cost like Level belonging to IAG for example.
But because of that French bee use Orly Air Caraïbes workers, and because air Caraïbes also use A350 they share maintenance. Also, and in both way, when plane is Out of use they can use Aircaraibes spare aircraft.
Also they struggle to survive during COVID but hopefully France have territory all around the world they still flew during the worwild curfew.
In fact when you look closely, Air Caraïbes use the Caribbean routes (obviously) but with better quality of services and FrenchBee the others French territories (Reunion and Tahiti) and all the niches.
Going into Orly was a beeeze. Less crowded easy baggage and customs. Easy train to Paris proper. Closer than CDG.
I think there's probably another thing that wasn't mentioned that French Bee has going for it that most don't: The city of Paris itself. Widebodied jets are HUGE, so you need to fill them up to make a profit. The smallest widebody now in production is the 787-8, has an exit limit of 381. By comparison, Southwest's workhorse 737-700s have an exit limit of 149, less than half that of the 787-8.
Fortunately for French Bee, Paris is ALSO huge, with a population of over 2.1 MILLION people, so there's plenty of potential customers for it. I don't think French Bee can charge lower prices had it been based out of a smaller hub to operate from.
I think what REALLY is needed for low-cost long-haul airlines to uh... "Take off", pun partially intended, is a small widebody, like A310 or 767-200-sized. I believe the failure of these two planes was because they were built when hub-and-spoke travel was still rather commonplace. These days, though, point-to-point travel is commonplace, so I think a 787-7, A330-700neo or A350-800 (Probably not, but something like that), would be the right tool for airlines such as French Bee, so they won't have to worry about filling as much seats to make a profit, and therefore can serve more destinations profitably.
You call 2.1 million population huge? 🤔
@@hakanevin8545 That's 3% of France's population, so yes. Though that's just the city itself. If we're talking the entire commune, then that figure is more like 10.9 million, or 16%. Only 27 more cities in the world have larger numbers than that.
Some only have a few hundred thousand people, like Atlanta, for instance, only has not even half a million people, yet it's the hub for Delta. So, for cities, Paris is quite sizeable. Not the biggest, that title goes to Tokyo, but still quite sizeable nonetheless.
@@AutismTakesOn Population of France is 68 million. How come 2.1 million is 19% of 68 million?
If you meant 10.9 million from the beginning, then that is OK. But you should edit your original comment accordingly.
@@hakanevin8545 Okay, point taken, though while I admit that the information I presented wasn't entirely accurate, and I have edited it, 2.1 million people is STILL not a small number. That's basically the entire population of Slovenia in just ONE city.
Your second argument is valid, and I admit that I should've researched further before typing, but I really do not see how you think 2.1 million people is by any means is not a large number of people. That's also still 3% of France's population in just ONE spot.
@@AutismTakesOn The city itself is also among the top most visited cities in the world, only beaten in Europe by London (in some lists). There's no shortage of people looking for a cheap way to come visit.
Fuel burn doesn’t grow exponentially with distance. Actually total burn is concave ascending curve because you burn so much more on take off. The longer you fly, the less your fuel burn by km flown. This is why long haul can be very profitable
The curve is not about the actual fuel burn, but the weight of the aircraft at the start of the flight. More fuel, more weight -> more weight, more induced drag -> more drag, higher fuel burn.
You burn fuel to carry fuel. The further you go, the more fuel you need, then you need more fuel to carry the extra fuel. That’s the reason why it’s exponential!
You burn more fuel for the takeoff compare to cruise, but on descent you burn less.
The further you want to fly, the more fuel you have to take because you burn fuel to carry the extra fuel you need and your lose performances for a longer period of time because of the extra weight due to the fuel, so the exponential cost is due to this inevitable fact.
But, you could also say that if you fly farther away you can climb higher for your cruise altitude, which can make a big difference in reducing your fuel consumption with jet engines.
So, there is always a sweet spot for each type and make of airplanes for best fuel consumption per distance flown.
One of the ways I think any long haul budget airline can make more money, is to charge a little extra for passenger window seats and for wider seats. Passengers love window seats and over weight passengers will at last appreciate airlines that take their concerns seriously in economy class. They will not mind paying a little bit more for that and such airlines will make a pretty sum of money.😊
They already do that in the form of pre-select seats.
Pre-selected seats already exist. Most overweight passengers also don't have concerns. Clearly they don't care that much and have no problem making you uncomfortable squeezed in next to them.
Cebu Pacific long haul (eg: MNL to SYD) is pretty interesting. A330-900 neo with 9-abreast, 459 seats. Super light-weight "pre-reclined" seats mean that the officially measured seat-pitch is an underestimate, the bulk of the seat in front is minimal leg room remains comfortable.
No in-flight entertainment system at all means the whole cabin just goes to sleep on the overnight flight. And of course, the plane was full but comfotable.
Cabin crew are friendly and efficient - the relaxed attitude comes through in a uniform consisting of a simply a company yellow polo shirt and just jeans or whatever.
The lack of cabin dividers means a single cabin crew member can see half the plane.
Boarding is very fast - no checking of boarding passes at the plane door - get on, sit down, they will count you once the door closes. The lack of dividers gives more space for crossing from one corridor to the other if one blocks up while boarding.
9 abreast A330 has wider seats than a normal 787
The days of Southwest being a low-cost carrier are long past.
Would it be more expensive or cheaper if French Bee and Air Caraibes used the NPS version?
More expensive simply because they'd have to offload their old aircraft and buy new ones. I know at least one plane in each of FrenchBee's and Air Caraibe's fleet were flight test vehicles during A350 certification, which I'm sure they got a good deal on. Didn't mention it in the video but that also helps keep costs down
All it takes is to get seated next to someone who is a wide body to realize how miserable you can be with narrow seats
Have you heard of Air Asia? They do similar work in medium haul. Air Asia X is their low cost long haul offshoot for the last 15 years or so.
For most French Bee routes I’d rather fly with transit choosing regular carrier like KLM. SAS on routes to LAX is even cheaper and for most regular carriers you won’t pay significantly more and will get food and luggage in basic tariff.
Yeah, especially for flights from/to the US, the competition is so strong, that there's almost always some kind of offer over the Atlantic. Often it's even cheaper to fly OneWorld, SkyTeam or *Alliance - even including a connecting flight from/to your final destination in Europe.
I flew French Bee from Paris to Miami in April and I had a great experience. The seat wasn't that snug, it was fine especially for $209 one way!! The service was great, the crew was great. I highly recommend them
The USA seriously needs a carrier like this ❤
There is a slight issue with French Bee and IROPS. In the event that BF has to rebook passengers, they have a very limited number of partner airlines with which they interline with. For example, from SFO to PAR (ORY/CDG), if BF has a disruption to their service, they would most likely have to rebook passengers on another airline. Air France also flies SFO-PAR but BF can not ticket passengers to AF since they do not have an agreement to ticket each other. BF would have to use a flight interruption manifest or request another airline which can ticket onto AF to rebook passengers from BF to AF.
PS. This is also valid for most small/budget airlines when it comes to IROPS.
I love your videos! Please post more🎉
Whether the business model can scale will be interesting. Connecting a single hub that both has lots of demand in both directions to a small number of high demand destinations can certainly work, but is this a very specific service that a couple dozen big cities get to enjoy, or can it expand successfully to mid-size cities.
BIG BEE GOT DAT SASS BABY!! BIG BEE GOT DAT SASS!!!
Love FrenchBee, their MIA to ORLY route is convenient and only $400!
As a French, I think Frenchbee is almost working on the same model as Air Caraïbe, because they are both serving french territories, and proposing cheaper prices compare to Air France, Corsair or Air Austral ( + modern aircrafts), so they will always get french passengers who want to go back in "France".
Someone in another comment said they're both owned by the same parent company - so it is the same, just different branding
I've heard that zip air is also really good low-cost long haul.
Ran a few comparisons on different random dates with British Airways (from London to LAX) vs French Bee (from Paris) and BA were either the same or £10 cheaper - and that includes free drinks and food which you pay extra for on French Bee. And remember, with legacy carriers, even without status you get miles in some form or another which, after not as many flights as you think, adds up to a free reward flight along the way. Something that doesn't generally come with the budget carriers.
You also forgot to, factor into the cost total. The extra expense of ground transportation, using a secondary airport, like Newark or Orlay! 😮
Paris is further than London, hence higher costs for everything, from fuel to maintenance to crew.
how does aisle width compare? how many times did people in the aisle run into you?
The CEO of FrenchBee has no need for toilet paper. Coby’s got them covered 😂
I didn't know of this
Going and return for 330€ in November
That's amazing
Me To Will Choose More leg Room.Thanks For Great INFO
Hi Coby, just wondering if you know the name of the intro music you use at the start of the video? I hear this every time and I haven't been able to find it on Shazam or Spotify with voice search, thank you!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Frenchbee is doing a good job. I think it's important to define what is a long haul flight. NYC to London or Paris is not a long haul but rather a medium haul flight.
In general:
short haul -- less than 5 hours
medium haul -- 5 to 9 hours
long haul -- 9 to 14 hours
ultra long haul -- more than 14 hours
On a good day the average NYC to Paris flight time per Flight Aware is like 6h 50m. Not really a long haul.
Thanks for the warning about crammed planes, particularly on long haul flights. If there is one thing I cannot stand then it is exactly this nuisance.
Very good initiative. and legroom is significantly more important than seat width. I envision a more segregated aviation world, where there is a lot of room for this concept. And how other airlines can collaborate with them to transport their economy class passengers across continents.
Just remember, when an airline uses secondary-airports, yes, you end up with a lower ticket fare, but with one disadvantage:
you have to pay more in airport transport fees (e.g. a bus or taxi to the city centre).
I see two other factors at play: France still has remnants of an empire so we predictably need to travel to Guadeloupe, Martinique, Reunion Island, New Caledonia etc just to visit friends and family and also for business. Also, Orly airport is more convenient to get to from most areas of Paris than CDG or BVA.
French Bee is an example of why low cost, long haul airlines will succeed in a competitive industry - common fleet, simple network, and an ultra dense configuration. However, they're not the only one succeed - TUI, Condor, and Jetstar also buckled that trend, but how they became profitable are much different than what French Bee is doing. Makes me wonder if they really are the best airline for that segment.
*FACT:* _French Bee was originally called French Blue but changed its name because of a trademark dispute?_
Yes the trade mark dispute was with JetBlue…
Not necessarily a trademark dispute, since JetBlue doesn't "own" the word "Blue", but JetBlue argued that people would assume the companies were related based on the name if both airlines were in the US travel market. This is because when French Blue applied to fly to the US as part of launching the Tahiti route, the USDOT informs all US airlines of the application, and JetBlue responded with their protest.
Ultimately French Blue decided it would be less work to rebrand than to have a court battle, and JetBlue would later launch its own flights to Paris some years later anyway. Somehow I imagine if French Blue never rebranded, it would not have stopped JetBlue from launching Paris, and French Blue probably wouldn't have felt the need to protest as JetBlue did.
TUI is basically vacation airline. You suffer, and then lie on a beach recovering, not go to a meeting having to visit chiropractor first to remain sharp
I am going to book French Bee right now. Nice vacation coming up.