"cutting off the BS is one of my primary motivations in making this video series." You are an absolute legend, man. I have never clicked on one of your videos and thought "I wish I watched something else instead."
I really appreciate how you supply cultural background and historical context to give a better understanding of why and how things are in the internal arts. My practice has felt stagnant over the past few years and you have been inspiring me in new ways with your videos and opening new doors for me. Thank you very much.
Thanks Master Yang, this is one of my favorite videos up to now! It provides clear insights about the nature of movements in Xing Yi, Bagua and Tai Ji, and provide potential answers for many questions that were not clear to me before. It was very stimulating. I was always curious why different martial arts use different principles, and what made them evolve in different directions. For instance, in muay thai (even wing chun), instructors tell you to keep your shoulders up, whereas in xing yi we have to sink our shoulders. In boxing/muay thai, when waiting before engaging they bounce around to generate momentum, whereas xing yi/tai ji aim for stability and don't bounce around. I guess the weaponswork origin of internal martial arts can at least partially provide an explanation for many of such differences; for instance, bouncing around with shoulders up with a heavy weapon wouldn't make sense at all; you'd just get really tired. Thus, I think looking at Xing Yi through the lense of a weapons handling structure is therefore very telling to explain why movements are structured as they are. The more I think about it, the more I realize weapons handling is a true beauty of Xing Yi and the other Chinese internal martial arts. Although people have multiple possibilities nowadays when choosing a martial art to learn, there really aren't many of them (at least those popular in the western culture) which provide such in-depth and refined handling of weapons. After chatting with a few people from other styles, I feel many other martial arts treat weapons as miscellaneous additions to the training rather than being a core part of the training. I feel this could be a key point to mention to a potential young person who wants to get into martial arts, but is trying to pick one among the many available. Finally, I was also curious about short ranged weapons (e.g. judge pens, deer horn knives). Were these developed in a more "urban/civilian" context to circumvent restrictions about weapons? For instance, I guess on a battlefield it is not as easy to use weapons with a shorter range than longer range ones such as spear? Thanks a lot again for all this! Fred
Hello Fred, you see, a feedback from a university professor is just outstanding:) In the ancient battle field in China, normally, there were team-fighting approaches not the individual fighting, for the most of time. So, weapons were used as a collaborative team-fighting equipment... With Jin Wu Ling, people really had to develop the bare-hand training, this is why I introduced it in my video. Thanks,
Hai, Thanks for another great installment in your contrast series. Once more your use of history has helped me clarify some misunderstandings about the use of weapons in martial arts training. After laying the foundation in earlier videos about the role of aesthetic conception and the importance of grasping the spirit of movements rather than precise imitation this lecture that links weapons with bare hands forms is definitely helping me sharpen my understanding of movements and body mechanics within the three styles. Your generosity in sharing all this information is greatly appreciated.
Thank you, Howard, I hope you are doing well. Like we talked in emails that the reason I am applying some aesthetic principles to explain martial art practice is that I believe, by taking this method, it can really give people a conceptual framework in analyzing and appreciating these arts. For a very long time, our community did not pay any attention to it, which I think is a wrong direction. Again, thank you for your understanding and comment.
Thank you so much for this detailed and very informative video. I have been enjoying this whole series. I'm so pleased you are demystifying and removing the B.S. As do I with my own teaching and practice. Its much more interesting without it anyway. The history of how and why, I truly appreciate and find fascinating. Finally, your humbleness at the beginning was refreshing, honest and more importantly shows why you should keep going with future videos. I for one shall be watching. Thank you
So having trained in Fu Style Baguazhang, the thumbnail of this video of a man holding a Saber nearly the size of him, is Fu Zhensong. He actually was gifted this saber by General Zhang Zuolin after a performance Fu did during a 1921 martial arts exhibition, held by the General, in Tian Jin. It became his signature weapon since, however, it was lost when the Japanese came to Guangdong Province in the 1930s because he buried it in fear that it would be confiscated if found on him. When he and his son Fu Wing Fei returned later it was gone. This is also recorded in the book, "Fu Zhensong's Dragon Baguazhang" by Lin Chao Zhen (one of his few deciples)
Master Hai Yang thank you for fascinating and inspirational lecture on the history , evolution and purpose of bare hand weapon training. I hope to start to be mindful of these ideas in my training.
Very interesting, my first thought is to contrast the internal styles different uses of balance to accommodate their iconic weapon: Xing Yi transfers the balance point or dantian force to the spear tip, Tai Chi keeps the weapon/dantian relationship in equilibrium, Bagua uses the dantian to follow the blade. Thank you for the fascinating video, there is much a great deal to learn from it, I am sorry if I misunderstand the weapon imagery relationships; I personally like Yin Fu's Bagua pen, I don't have any weapons training, but the Yin Yang pen is a cool stealthy weapon.
I have always misunderstood the saber or sword relationship in bagua I alway believed the hands were the blades such as in lion holds ball or three piercings. But it is clearly evident in removing helmet that the hand is holding handle. Very enlightening
In Yin Style Bagua, under the lineage of He JinBao of Beijing (Yin fu-Men Baozheng-Xie Peiqi-He JinBao) there are eight animals systems for hand technique. The large saber (da dao) is said to most closely resembles the Ch’ien trigram lion systems (three solid lines) of pure yang, where as the straight sword (jian) represents the pure yin of the kun trigram (three broken lines). However, the dao does have postures for all of the eight animal systems each of which closely resemble the empty hand postures. I’m not familiar enough with the jian to say there is similar connections unfortunately. I do know that Yin Fu was said to favor a weapon called the scholar pens or needles. He also was said to be skilled with the kan trigram snake system, which favors point striking and has a concealed and poisonous nature. This reinforces the relevance of the smaller more concealable weapons. I’m not certain that in yin style there was a particular weapon associated with each animal system but I have heard rumors that is the case.
Thank you so much for this video. My experience with weapons training has been limited to learning a couple of staff and broadsword forms, or pieces of forms, and I do wish I'd had more opportunity and space to explore this side of Ba Gua more deeply. The idea that Ba Gua's main weapon imagery revolves around the Chinese broadsword is, IMO, very evident in many traditional movements from several different styles. Is there any chance you might want to discuss the different staff/pole styles and movements that can be distinguished among the Chinese martial arts? I appreciate you continuing this series very much, Sifu Yang. I hope you and yours are well.
Great video! Could I also ask regarding the role of the moon knives or 鸳鸯钺 in the bagua lineage and if it had an influence, or was it mainly the dao that later branched out to other weapons? Thanks!
. Wow, thats very suprising to hear that guan dao is the actual ti chi weapon, i want to learn it now haha. I wonder why the jian is considered to be the 'weapon of tai chi'? (also can the bagua dao be used for martial application, or is it Only for strength training?) Thank you for the videos, they are very valuable to me :)
Very interesting and well presented. Thank you. Guan dao does seem to be a very popular in Chen taiji, but much less popular with Yang and Wu stylists. I wonder if later styles moved to another weapon image?
Very clear explanation, Lǎoshī! When shown in such clear fashion, it’s hard not to see it now. I need to get back on the spear! Lǎoshī, from this dissection it would seem that military training methods was kept separate from civilian training methods. Do you believe they influenced one another? Or would you say they were kept on parallel tracks? There’s always someone claiming that this army or that guard corps were practicing such and such styles. Sometimes it sounds like they are only boosting the appeal for the style they’re selling. Are there any examples in history where it can be clearly said that the military used or influenced one of the internal styles? Another thing, I just finished reading an abridged version of the Three Kingdoms novel. I really enjoyed it. I have to say I’m really disappointed about the Lord Guan Lore. He was a hero in my eyes for such a long time. But, I learned through the historical notes on the novel that his role was much lesser that the novel presents it. And now, you tell me that his Green Dragon didn’t even exist!!! I’m really sad! ;) Edit: I forgot to say, I really enjoy when you present these elements in their cultural context. It may be because Chinese history interest me!
Sure military and civilian influence each other. Army did not only practice certain style, only take some contents from some styles more or less than others. hahah ,Gua is a figure... Also, without the historical background, it is very hard to see a clear picture:) Thanks.
Superb content and demonstrations! I would like to know more about why the original bagua practitioners chose such a heavy weapon given that the essence of their style was fluidity in movement? I would have guessed a much lighter sword would be appropriate to the speed required in their stepping/pivoting strategies.
Well, in one of his earlier videos Master Hai Yang revealed a secret of ba gua, which was that in that art the hands lead the power. Some might find this quality hard to achieve! Holding a large, heavy sword forces a student to adopt the correct principle, because that kind of weapon is just too heavy to swing with pure strength. You have to cooperate with the weight, so to speak. Then, when you put the sword down, hopefully your movements keep the same attitude. Historically of course I have no idea. Just to look at the movements, though, it certainly seems like the giant sword handled this way would deliver some formidable blows! Perhaps to counter some kind of armor, or to cleave through other weapons? It's just a thought.
MMA is great. Xu Xiaodong works on different way for different purposes. Traditional Chinese martial arts needs to return to its old way of training if for competition purposes.
Cannot comment Xingyi. But for Bagua, my personal opinion is different. We've been taught to use palm route as a framework to create weapon route "以掌为母悟刀剑”，you might invert cause and effect. Take cheng bagua as an example (Sun Zhijun style). All the weapon routes were originated from 64 palm.
My Xing Yi lineage supposedly through western students under the tutelage of Hung I Hsiang (sp?) of Taiwan, Tang Shou Tou school. I was taught the two hand saber form but they called the weapon "Muslim Sword". I understand there's a Muslim Xing Yi branch in China. But, why wasn't the form simply called the Da Dao form? Why "Muslim Sword" form? Does this imply that the form came from a student of that Muslim Xing Yi branch and injected itself into the new lineage? Interesting stuff.
Could you share a link of the form (demonstration)? Then I will be able to answer your question. Only a name as Muslim Sword does not mean anything:). Yes, I heard about Hong Yi Xiang after moving to Canada.
This concept, that the bare hand and weapons forms work to reinforce each other, very much is my way of thinking, As for the reference to Chen style being oldest, there is a dissenting opinion from a contemporary historian, which makes more sense to me. The podcast speaks about how TaiChi and Bagua may be the first commercial/McDojo martial arts, and how Chen style relates to Yang style. Well worth a listen. www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/51-the-tai-chi-myth-part-1
Thank you for your input. However, what I was trying to emphasize in my video is to introduce that bare-hand's training was rooted in weapons' training in the first place. Of course anything can reinforce each other, but weapons' training can reinforce our bare-hand's training more.
I don't agree with the weapon imagery concerning Ba Gua : the other hand, the "bare -hand" is not, in fact, bare. This hand hold another weapon, for example a knife. A warrior never fight with a bare - hand, a warrior always fight with two hands, he uses both !
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"cutting off the BS is one of my primary motivations in making this video series." You are an absolute legend, man. I have never clicked on one of your videos and thought "I wish I watched something else instead."
I appreciate your encouragement. Thanks,
I really appreciate how you supply cultural background and historical context to give a better understanding of why and how things are in the internal arts. My practice has felt stagnant over the past few years and you have been inspiring me in new ways with your videos and opening new doors for me. Thank you very much.
You are very welcome. I am very happy to know that my video can provide a bit help to others.
I’ve only just discovered your channel and immediately subscribed. I’ve been binge watching your videos. I’m very impressed with your knowledge.
Welcome aboard!
Thanks Master Yang, this is one of my favorite videos up to now! It provides clear insights about the nature of movements in Xing Yi, Bagua and Tai Ji, and provide potential answers for many questions that were not clear to me before. It was very stimulating.
I was always curious why different martial arts use different principles, and what made them evolve in different directions. For instance, in muay thai (even wing chun), instructors tell you to keep your shoulders up, whereas in xing yi we have to sink our shoulders. In boxing/muay thai, when waiting before engaging they bounce around to generate momentum, whereas xing yi/tai ji aim for stability and don't bounce around. I guess the weaponswork origin of internal martial arts can at least partially provide an explanation for many of such differences; for instance, bouncing around with shoulders up with a heavy weapon wouldn't make sense at all; you'd just get really tired. Thus, I think looking at Xing Yi through the lense of a weapons handling structure is therefore very telling to explain why movements are structured as they are.
The more I think about it, the more I realize weapons handling is a true beauty of Xing Yi and the other Chinese internal martial arts. Although people have multiple possibilities nowadays when choosing a martial art to learn, there really aren't many of them (at least those popular in the western culture) which provide such in-depth and refined handling of weapons. After chatting with a few people from other styles, I feel many other martial arts treat weapons as miscellaneous additions to the training rather than being a core part of the training. I feel this could be a key point to mention to a potential young person who wants to get into martial arts, but is trying to pick one among the many available.
Finally, I was also curious about short ranged weapons (e.g. judge pens, deer horn knives). Were these developed in a more "urban/civilian" context to circumvent restrictions about weapons? For instance, I guess on a battlefield it is not as easy to use weapons with a shorter range than longer range ones such as spear?
Thanks a lot again for all this!
Fred
Hello Fred, you see, a feedback from a university professor is just outstanding:) In the ancient battle field in China, normally, there were team-fighting approaches not the individual fighting, for the most of time. So, weapons were used as a collaborative team-fighting equipment... With Jin Wu Ling, people really had to develop the bare-hand training, this is why I introduced it in my video.
Thanks,
Hai Yang Interesting, I never thought about that (i.e. teamwork fighting). Everyday we learn something :)
Hai, Thanks for another great installment in your contrast series. Once more your use of history has helped me clarify some misunderstandings about the use of weapons in martial arts training. After laying the foundation in earlier videos about the role of aesthetic conception and the importance of grasping the spirit of movements rather than precise imitation this lecture that links weapons with bare hands forms is definitely helping me sharpen my understanding of movements and body mechanics within the three styles. Your generosity in sharing all this information is greatly appreciated.
Thank you, Howard, I hope you are doing well. Like we talked in emails that the reason I am applying some aesthetic principles to explain martial art practice is that I believe, by taking this method, it can really give people a conceptual framework in analyzing and appreciating these arts. For a very long time, our community did not pay any attention to it, which I think is a wrong direction. Again, thank you for your understanding and comment.
Thank you so much for this detailed and very informative video. I have been enjoying this whole series. I'm so pleased you are demystifying and removing the B.S. As do I with my own teaching and practice. Its much more interesting without it anyway.
The history of how and why, I truly appreciate and find fascinating.
Finally, your humbleness at the beginning was refreshing, honest and more importantly shows why you should keep going with future videos. I for one shall be watching.
Thank you
Thank you for your comment and it is my great pleasure to see that my video can provide some helps to others!
So having trained in Fu Style Baguazhang, the thumbnail of this video of a man holding a Saber nearly the size of him, is Fu Zhensong. He actually was gifted this saber by General Zhang Zuolin after a performance Fu did during a 1921 martial arts exhibition, held by the General, in Tian Jin. It became his signature weapon since, however, it was lost when the Japanese came to Guangdong Province in the 1930s because he buried it in fear that it would be confiscated if found on him. When he and his son Fu Wing Fei returned later it was gone.
This is also recorded in the book, "Fu Zhensong's Dragon Baguazhang" by Lin Chao Zhen (one of his few deciples)
Thank you for your input. Apprecated.
Thank you very much for detailing this subject. It is very interesting and useful for visualisation and training.
You are welcome! and thank you.
Master Hai Yang thank you for fascinating and inspirational lecture on the history , evolution and purpose of bare hand weapon training. I hope to start to be mindful of these ideas in my training.
Glad it is helpful. Thank you.
Very interesting, my first thought is to contrast the internal styles different uses of balance to accommodate their iconic weapon: Xing Yi transfers the balance point or dantian force to the spear tip, Tai Chi keeps the weapon/dantian relationship in equilibrium, Bagua uses the dantian to follow the blade. Thank you for the fascinating video, there is much a great deal to learn from it, I am sorry if I misunderstand the weapon imagery relationships; I personally like Yin Fu's Bagua pen, I don't have any weapons training, but the Yin Yang pen is a cool stealthy weapon.
sure. any weapon training is nice.
John Wick's style
Thank you, this is really interesting and so well researched!
You are welcome and thank you too.
Master thank you so much for all your information and knowledge I really appreciate it
You are very welcome and thank you too.
I have always misunderstood the saber or sword relationship in bagua I alway believed the hands were the blades such as in lion holds ball or three piercings. But it is clearly evident in removing helmet that the hand is holding handle. Very enlightening
Thank you.
In Yin Style Bagua, under the lineage of He JinBao of Beijing (Yin fu-Men Baozheng-Xie Peiqi-He JinBao) there are eight animals systems for hand technique.
The large saber (da dao) is said to most closely resembles the Ch’ien trigram lion systems (three solid lines) of pure yang, where as the straight sword (jian) represents the pure yin of the kun trigram (three broken lines). However, the dao does have postures for all of the eight animal systems each of which closely resemble the empty hand postures. I’m not familiar enough with the jian to say there is similar connections unfortunately. I do know that Yin Fu was said to favor a weapon called the scholar pens or needles. He also was said to be skilled with the kan trigram snake system, which favors point striking and has a concealed and poisonous nature. This reinforces the relevance of the smaller more concealable weapons. I’m not certain that in yin style there was a particular weapon associated with each animal system but I have heard rumors that is the case.
Interesting, I will read your comment again so that I will understand it better.
Very educational, thanks for posting this video. D
My pleasure! and thank you.
Excellent as usual!!
Thanks again!
Thank you so much for this video. My experience with weapons training has been limited to learning a couple of staff and broadsword forms, or pieces of forms, and I do wish I'd had more opportunity and space to explore this side of Ba Gua more deeply. The idea that Ba Gua's main weapon imagery revolves around the Chinese broadsword is, IMO, very evident in many traditional movements from several different styles. Is there any chance you might want to discuss the different staff/pole styles and movements that can be distinguished among the Chinese martial arts? I appreciate you continuing this series very much, Sifu Yang. I hope you and yours are well.
I did a lot of research and study about different weapons. But it is very hard to introduce them in a such short video...Thank,s
Thank you for another interesting video!
My pleasure!
Great video! Could I also ask regarding the role of the moon knives or 鸳鸯钺 in the bagua lineage and if it had an influence, or was it mainly the dao that later branched out to other weapons? Thanks!
Yes. That is a good question. This short weapon is unique but does not have that influence on the style so development. Thanks.
Very helpful. Thank you!!
You are welcome and thank you.
.
Wow, thats very suprising to hear that guan dao is the actual ti chi weapon, i want to learn it now haha. I wonder why the jian is considered to be the 'weapon of tai chi'?
(also can the bagua dao be used for martial application, or is it Only for strength training?)
Thank you for the videos, they are very valuable to me :)
Jian or sword is considered a popular Tai Chi weapon only. Big Bagua saber is for training.
.
@@HaiYangChannel Ohhh. Thanks :)
Very interesting and well presented. Thank you. Guan dao does seem to be a very popular in Chen taiji, but much less popular with Yang and Wu stylists. I wonder if later styles moved to another weapon image?
I am not sure about other style. Sorry.
very interesting, thanks for posting!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very clear explanation, Lǎoshī! When shown in such clear fashion, it’s hard not to see it now. I need to get back on the spear!
Lǎoshī, from this dissection it would seem that military training methods was kept separate from civilian training methods. Do you believe they influenced one another? Or would you say they were kept on parallel tracks?
There’s always someone claiming that this army or that guard corps were practicing such and such styles. Sometimes it sounds like they are only boosting the appeal for the style they’re selling. Are there any examples in history where it can be clearly said that the military used or influenced one of the internal styles?
Another thing, I just finished reading an abridged version of the Three Kingdoms novel. I really enjoyed it. I have to say I’m really disappointed about the Lord Guan Lore. He was a hero in my eyes for such a long time. But, I learned through the historical notes on the novel that his role was much lesser that the novel presents it. And now, you tell me that his Green Dragon didn’t even exist!!! I’m really sad! ;)
Edit: I forgot to say, I really enjoy when you present these elements in their cultural context. It may be because Chinese history interest me!
Sure military and civilian influence each other. Army did not only practice certain style, only take some contents from some styles more or less than others.
hahah ,Gua is a figure...
Also, without the historical background, it is very hard to see a clear picture:)
Thanks.
Superb content and demonstrations!
I would like to know more about why the original bagua practitioners chose such a heavy weapon given that the essence of their style was fluidity in movement? I would have guessed a much lighter sword would be appropriate to the speed required in their stepping/pivoting strategies.
Well, in one of his earlier videos Master Hai Yang revealed a secret of ba gua, which was that in that art the hands lead the power. Some might find this quality hard to achieve! Holding a large, heavy sword forces a student to adopt the correct principle, because that kind of weapon is just too heavy to swing with pure strength. You have to cooperate with the weight, so to speak. Then, when you put the sword down, hopefully your movements keep the same attitude.
Historically of course I have no idea. Just to look at the movements, though, it certainly seems like the giant sword handled this way would deliver some formidable blows! Perhaps to counter some kind of armor, or to cleave through other weapons? It's just a thought.
For training purpose. Body follows the weapon is the important principle in Bagua's weapon training. So a heavy one will have a better result. Thank,s
@8palms5fists My mistake. I must review more.
what do you think of mma and xu xiaodong? do you think traditional chinese martial arts are obsoleted?
MMA is great. Xu Xiaodong works on different way for different purposes. Traditional Chinese martial arts needs to return to its old way of training if for competition purposes.
Cannot comment Xingyi. But for Bagua, my personal opinion is different. We've been taught to use palm route as a framework to create weapon route "以掌为母悟刀剑”，you might invert cause and effect. Take cheng bagua as an example (Sun Zhijun style). All the weapon routes were originated from 64 palm.
Well, 以掌为母悟刀剑 does not say that Palm comes first. Thanks,
I play with a hoe ... and put hoe route to bring a stronger punch
This is the type of teaching that was lacking in kung fu schools in the US. Shame it took a pandemic for this to happen...
hahaha, pandemic brings some positive outcome:) Thanks.
My Xing Yi lineage supposedly through western students under the tutelage of Hung I Hsiang (sp?) of Taiwan, Tang Shou Tou school. I was taught the two hand saber form but they called the weapon "Muslim Sword". I understand there's a Muslim Xing Yi branch in China. But, why wasn't the form simply called the Da Dao form? Why "Muslim Sword" form? Does this imply that the form came from a student of that Muslim Xing Yi branch and injected itself into the new lineage? Interesting stuff.
Could you share a link of the form (demonstration)? Then I will be able to answer your question. Only a name as Muslim Sword does not mean anything:). Yes, I heard about Hong Yi Xiang after moving to Canada.
This concept, that the bare hand and weapons forms work to reinforce each other, very much is my way of thinking,
As for the reference to Chen style being oldest, there is a dissenting opinion from a contemporary historian, which makes more sense to me.
The podcast speaks about how TaiChi and Bagua may be the first commercial/McDojo martial arts, and how Chen style relates to Yang style. Well worth a listen.
www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/51-the-tai-chi-myth-part-1
Thank you for your input. However, what I was trying to emphasize in my video is to introduce that bare-hand's training was rooted in weapons' training in the first place. Of course anything can reinforce each other, but weapons' training can reinforce our bare-hand's training more.
I don't agree with the weapon imagery concerning Ba Gua : the other hand, the "bare -hand" is not, in fact, bare. This hand hold another weapon, for example a knife. A warrior never fight with a bare - hand, a warrior always fight with two hands, he uses both !
Well, no problem at all. Thank you for your input anyway.