I think that you have to raise because it's such a small bet. If it was a larger bet like $500 or $600, I think it's best to just call. But against just $330, I think you have to raise it up a bit. I think he's betting larger with a full house, and 5-X isn't really a possible full house (unless it's quads), so I am not as worried about a full house. The smaller bet seems like a weaker hand betting for value. It's not that common that people block bet donk trying to induce a raise. A full house definitely wants a raise, but I don't think that they use block bet sizing. I think the caller has a good idea about min clicking it back.
Just call. A lesser hand is not going to call a jam (another $700) on this board, with the betting as it went. I think it was very well played by the hero, and even by the villain. Villain could also have had A5 suited or 8Xh, in which case the river bet could have been called a value bet.
Sometimes jam, sometimes call. Depends on the opponent and day I think. Really just wanted to say “sometimes people block bet and forget to fold” - had me rolling 🤣.
He's got 3 copies of JJ, right? Doubtful he has more than 3 flushes that will call jam in my opinion. The question is whether he's good enough to release A5. But I doubt just calling is too much worse than raising.
Excellent river analysis on why the villain has fewer flushes.. I think hero played this hand well, other than missing about 200 dollars of extra value on the flop and turn.
I say this is still a raise, even if you're expecting V to fold 90+% of the time. First of all, Nate's right; we're good 99%. Second, V can still find a lot of calls (maybe not with JcTc, but that's way at the bottom of range). AcJc can even find a curious call enough to be way +EV. Third, I think Bart undervalues the lack of showdown. If I jam here and get V to fold whatever, I'm getting credit for JJ and 55 a lot, and I can take that image into future hands. But if I just call and show that I missed thin value with the nut flush, then my image takes a hit, and I'll have to adjust more significantly going forward.
Agree with Nate. A lot of time was spent on how few worse hands would call the river jam, but almost no time on how unusual the line would be with 88 or JJ. Who would take the lead and block bet with the thickest value on that river? And in the case of 88, it's even more odd: it would have to come after check calling the turn with a monster. It's just not a line that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah certainly out of position it seems like this hand should be released vs hero's size on the flop. Very hard for hero to have a worse hand and JcTc has very little equity against our value range.
We're forgetting how "inelastic" most people actually "behave"... I personally like a clcik-back w/nut flu'sh..., just in my experience, V's/people tend to forget that their blockbet was primarily a block, and they'll convince themselves it was a "merge"... Nate & I agree here... Spots like this is where $ is to be made @ low to mid-tier... Against pure pros, less so.. If we don't exploit against the Leaks (block bet confusion leak) we're hurting our own win rate... **Block betting is so rarely utilized anymore,, average & avert+ players tend to not utilize them correctly when they do use them... = Leak. *We have to exploit other's leaks, because we have some leaks of our own to monetarily cover... When we don't improve our leveraging exploits, we haven't even bandaged our own leaks ... IMO
I agree that the small river bet screams a block bet, which you pointed out most likely isn't calling a raise. 88 and JJ are leading bigger - they wouldn't want hero to possibly check back KK or AA when flush completes
At 17:38 of the video rn. Is there an argument for min raising the river? My thought process is if it’s a block bet with QQ they would likely still call + Q10s still calls. I guess if somehow a 5 was played this way it would call as well. Is that too thin for value? Since I don’t really think if they jam with JJ you can fold.
I should have just listened for 2 more seconds before typing that comment 😂. Still don’t know if it makes sense to min click, seeing as you can’t fold to the jam.
I REALLY like the idea of min-clicking on the river. I thought about it about 20 seconds before the caller and think that's the only way to really get value. And if the villain jams, you knew that was an option but you have to call given the odds.
The point about it being the J of hearts at the end is a good one. It means he can’t have QJhh or JThh. And now he can have jacks full. With a 3h river this is a trivial raise.
Paused at 14:55. Some people play tighter when they first sit down, some people play looser. I keep thinking JACKS! I'm just calling. Back to the video...
If hero was going to bet $600 on river but only called the $330 donk, then the block bet saved villain $270. Maybe villain was willing to call $400 OTR with his top pair but would have folded to $600 AND thought his top pair would be good against AKo. So, villain did get called by better but it was a good use of the block bet. Is that reasoning viable?
Blocking for $330 is better than check-calling $600 IF hero is only betting the river with better hands for $600. But if hero would have a decent number of bluffs then check-calling the $600 might be better. And if hero doesn’t have any bluffs then check-folding might be best.
You say that the block bet by villain only makes sense if hero might call with worse. I think that hero would consider a call with TT, 99, and A8, and could have gotten here with any of those.
I call river. Sometimes an opponent's block bet is correct, serves its purpose, and cannot be exploited. It doesn't mean you've been outplayed, it just means you're out of exploits, unless you want to take a big risk of being exploited yourself, like if he knows what range you'd raise/fold, and 3-bet bluff shove. My second choice is to raise to what I would have bet. I'd do that all the time if sure the guy doesn't often induce with nutted hands, but at 5-5, it's very plausible the guy is going to induce if he has a boat. Just calling is cheap insurance against value owning yourself against an inducer. Combined with not many hands you beat paying a raise, just call. At some small size of block bet, raising to what you would have bet, becomes the better option. We all raise if he bets $5. Many raise if he bets $330. Some shove regardless of what he bets. If you feel the bet size is near the dividing line for you personally, it is just a sign that villain did a great job of sizing the bet specifically for you. When you aren't sure what to do, it increases the chance that you'll make a mistake and do what the villain wants you to do. Take it as a sign that they might even be better than you. Take the low-variance road against players better than you. Realize your equity.
Isn't this hand pretty good to have in the checkback range on the flop? This deep especially, we need some nut flush draws in all the lines. Hard to have a better one here, unblocking all opponent paired hands (he won't have AA or KK much after calling 3! pre), ahead of all his unpaired hands, and blocking him from having the second-nut flush draw to call with worse. We can easily call turn probe and then win money sometimes by checking back when opponent checks river on a brick. I see the logic of betting with such a strong draw but I think I'd be inclined to play this hand passively and barrel with my AhXh
This villain had no clue what he was doing. Check-calling out of position on flop with JTclubs and donking river? What is the purpose of a donkbet on the river here? You will never get called by worse and you will never fold out better. Live poker is so much fun.
I get the sense that the villain donked in hopes of avoiding having to call a larger bet, knowing he won’t be able to fold to anything but maybe a jam, but probably would end up calling jam thinking hero might be bluffing.
I put villain on pocket 10's or Jack's as I was listening from the beginning. Very interesting river bet sizing. Shocking to see Jc10c. What was villain calling with on the flop. I may have folded to a river jam as I felt villain had jacks but I would've had to think it over for a long while
There are people who block-bet and forget to fold. If he's one of them, then shoving is the play. If not, it seems like it's about 50/50. There are a handful of weaker hand that will call, and about the same number of stronger hands as well.
Hero played it great the River is tough jamming the block bet I really don’t think much worse is calling other than the queen high flush I honestly think hero got the most money out of this hand
I thought the bet on the end was fishy. Hero played his hand like a big pocket pair. I was starting to get the feeling this small river bet was meant to induce a raise. Obviously hard to get a feel for that when not at the table with the players. Knowing the result, a check/evaluate call seems like a smarter play for top pair. Hero lost some value, but not a bad call on the end I think.
@@italianwaterice9594If hero raises the bet, that means villain’s bet doesn’t have fold equity. He’s saying if his bet can’t get called by worse or get better to fold, it’s a bad bet.
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If you’re afraid to call a large bet, by block betting you’re at best getting zero value once your opponent folds, you’re getting called by better, or you’re getting bluff or value raised. If you’re not calling a raise, and you’re betting solely to get a worse hand to not put any more money in, it’s literally a losing bet.
Gut is to jam here. If caller thinks he has 90% equity you gotta jam. There were some reasons for calling - i listened to trhem, and you convinced me a little. Then when you reveal JTs this makes it a slam dunk jam.
It doesn’t matter if you’re beating 90% of villain’s hands if none of the 90% of hands you’re beating will call you still can’t raise. So, sure he showed up with JTs but would JTs really call a jam? Maybe if V is a station.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj might as well take the chance. you're scooping the pot whether you just call or you jam and he folds.. so go for the extra value. players talk themselves into crazy calls all the time.
QTs shouldn't even be opening UTG to begin with in a 9max game, let alone call a 3b. the low suiteds are supposed to always defend to 3bets but they also rarely open to begin with. bart said it perfectly, Jh is basically the worst draw complete card for hero. JJ is extremely feasible played this way and V has almost zero flushes that he would call jam with due to card removal.
A ton of people at these stakes DON'T have folds when they open and got 3 bets. I know 2/5 regulars who I've literally never seen fold to a 3 bet after they opened. Also, don't jam, just click it back to get a call out of a 5. Especially if you're capable of folding even getting an insane price if he 3 bets river cause you're definitely beat.
If I open raise with KJ off and I get 3 bet. I'm folding the great majority of the time. And at my local room, because 3 bets don't happen much preflop, a lot of players assume AA, KK or AK and players just fold.
@danielmeuler2877 KJo is an awful open UTG at a full ring 5/5 game. But also, I didn't say NO ONE folds, I said you can't assume a 5/5 player folds an appropriate amount of the range he opened after getting 3 bet.
I'm shoving here all day long. Bart is a good teacher, but he focuses too much on the range of hands the opponents could have by the end of the river. If you look at your OWN range of hands, you are weighted way more heavily to having over pairs to the board on the flop instead of a flush draw which got there on the river(you obviously could have some combos of that but it cancels out as those possible flush draw combos are in your opponents range as well judging from the way the hand's been played) and therefore, with the view of my OWN range of hands I could have and the opponents range of hands, I SHOVE all in to the bet on the river, with my hand that's almost at the top of my range
pure river call to me...its a pretty goofy bet by villian that makes no sense for his hand... i think he just was hoping the flush coming in was scary to you .... maybe... and so no you will fold to a 1/3 1/2 bet ? its a pretty stupid bet but i think he was attempting a semi bluff his sizing is all wrong.
Lots of mental m@sturb@tion in these vids 💯 (this one, included); the majority of these hands are simply not that complicated. Someone can talk for 20 minutes about how best to crack an egg, too... but, again... mostly mental w@nking.
So are you saying this will blow my mind because he DIDN'T jam? Or are you just a click baiting mfer because you made it sound like he shouldn't jam in this situation.
Would you raise or just call on this river? Let’s hear your reasoning below
Of course not, it's no brainer flat.
I think that you have to raise because it's such a small bet. If it was a larger bet like $500 or $600, I think it's best to just call. But against just $330, I think you have to raise it up a bit.
I think he's betting larger with a full house, and 5-X isn't really a possible full house (unless it's quads), so I am not as worried about a full house. The smaller bet seems like a weaker hand betting for value.
It's not that common that people block bet donk trying to induce a raise. A full house definitely wants a raise, but I don't think that they use block bet sizing.
I think the caller has a good idea about min clicking it back.
Just call. A lesser hand is not going to call a jam (another $700) on this board, with the betting as it went. I think it was very well played by the hero, and even by the villain. Villain could also have had A5 suited or 8Xh, in which case the river bet could have been called a value bet.
Sometimes jam, sometimes call. Depends on the opponent and day I think. Really just wanted to say “sometimes people block bet and forget to fold” - had me rolling 🤣.
He's got 3 copies of JJ, right? Doubtful he has more than 3 flushes that will call jam in my opinion. The question is whether he's good enough to release A5. But I doubt just calling is too much worse than raising.
Excellent river analysis on why the villain has fewer flushes.. I think hero played this hand well, other than missing about 200 dollars of extra value on the flop and turn.
I say this is still a raise, even if you're expecting V to fold 90+% of the time.
First of all, Nate's right; we're good 99%.
Second, V can still find a lot of calls (maybe not with JcTc, but that's way at the bottom of range). AcJc can even find a curious call enough to be way +EV.
Third, I think Bart undervalues the lack of showdown. If I jam here and get V to fold whatever, I'm getting credit for JJ and 55 a lot, and I can take that image into future hands. But if I just call and show that I missed thin value with the nut flush, then my image takes a hit, and I'll have to adjust more significantly going forward.
Most people undervalue lack of showdown, I agree.
Agree with Nate. A lot of time was spent on how few worse hands would call the river jam, but almost no time on how unusual the line would be with 88 or JJ. Who would take the lead and block bet with the thickest value on that river? And in the case of 88, it's even more odd: it would have to come after check calling the turn with a monster. It's just not a line that makes a lot of sense.
dink dink dink we have a winner. Finally someone saying it.
It's OK for JT to give up on the flop! Surely there are better spots to continue than two overs and a backdoor flush draw.
Yeah certainly out of position it seems like this hand should be released vs hero's size on the flop. Very hard for hero to have a worse hand and JcTc has very little equity against our value range.
@@RaulGroomalso tons of trouble continuing/reverse implied odds if hit j or t. Kinda wild actually live poker at its finest
Never fold chase chase chase
yeah especially given the fact board is paired and the size given
We're forgetting how "inelastic" most people actually "behave"... I personally like a clcik-back w/nut flu'sh..., just in my experience, V's/people tend to forget that their blockbet was primarily a block, and they'll convince themselves it was a "merge"...
Nate & I agree here... Spots like this is where $ is to be made @ low to mid-tier... Against pure pros, less so..
If we don't exploit against the Leaks (block bet confusion leak) we're hurting our own win rate... **Block betting is so rarely utilized anymore,, average & avert+ players tend to not utilize them correctly when they do use them...
= Leak.
*We have to exploit other's leaks, because we have some leaks of our own to monetarily cover... When we don't improve our leveraging exploits, we haven't even bandaged our own leaks ... IMO
Bart, getting a tad excessive with the video titles.
No shame 😂
glad I'm not the only one thinking this
Guy is playing the algorithm game. It gets his videos more clicks. Leave the man alone
This is a rare call, in that I have no problem with anything hero did!
I agree that the small river bet screams a block bet, which you pointed out most likely isn't calling a raise. 88 and JJ are leading bigger - they wouldn't want hero to possibly check back KK or AA when flush completes
At 17:38 of the video rn. Is there an argument for min raising the river? My thought process is if it’s a block bet with QQ they would likely still call + Q10s still calls. I guess if somehow a 5 was played this way it would call as well.
Is that too thin for value? Since I don’t really think if they jam with JJ you can fold.
I should have just listened for 2 more seconds before typing that comment 😂.
Still don’t know if it makes sense to min click, seeing as you can’t fold to the jam.
I REALLY like the idea of min-clicking on the river. I thought about it about 20 seconds before the caller and think that's the only way to really get value. And if the villain jams, you knew that was an option but you have to call given the odds.
The point about it being the J of hearts at the end is a good one.
It means he can’t have QJhh or JThh. And now he can have jacks full.
With a 3h river this is a trivial raise.
Paused at 14:55. Some people play tighter when they first sit down, some people play looser. I keep thinking JACKS! I'm just calling.
Back to the video...
If hero was going to bet $600 on river but only called the $330 donk, then the block bet saved villain $270. Maybe villain was willing to call $400 OTR with his top pair but would have folded to $600 AND thought his top pair would be good against AKo. So, villain did get called by better but it was a good use of the block bet. Is that reasoning viable?
Blocking for $330 is better than check-calling $600 IF hero is only betting the river with better hands for $600.
But if hero would have a decent number of bluffs then check-calling the $600 might be better. And if hero doesn’t have any bluffs then check-folding might be best.
Look at me, thinking to myself “What is this flop sizing? Hands like JT will fold and over pairs will continue”
You say that the block bet by villain only makes sense if hero might call with worse. I think that hero would consider a call with TT, 99, and A8, and could have gotten here with any of those.
Are you 3-betting a UTG open with those hands?
How cute is it to think at live low ish stakes poker that people are opening from early position and folding to a regular 3 bet. 😂😂
nice hand
I call river. Sometimes an opponent's block bet is correct, serves its purpose, and cannot be exploited. It doesn't mean you've been outplayed, it just means you're out of exploits, unless you want to take a big risk of being exploited yourself, like if he knows what range you'd raise/fold, and 3-bet bluff shove.
My second choice is to raise to what I would have bet. I'd do that all the time if sure the guy doesn't often induce with nutted hands, but at 5-5, it's very plausible the guy is going to induce if he has a boat. Just calling is cheap insurance against value owning yourself against an inducer. Combined with not many hands you beat paying a raise, just call. At some small size of block bet, raising to what you would have bet, becomes the better option.
We all raise if he bets $5. Many raise if he bets $330. Some shove regardless of what he bets. If you feel the bet size is near the dividing line for you personally, it is just a sign that villain did a great job of sizing the bet specifically for you. When you aren't sure what to do, it increases the chance that you'll make a mistake and do what the villain wants you to do. Take it as a sign that they might even be better than you. Take the low-variance road against players better than you. Realize your equity.
Show me the 5/5 player that’s actually folding 78s heads up vs a 3-bet
Isn't this hand pretty good to have in the checkback range on the flop? This deep especially, we need some nut flush draws in all the lines. Hard to have a better one here, unblocking all opponent paired hands (he won't have AA or KK much after calling 3! pre), ahead of all his unpaired hands, and blocking him from having the second-nut flush draw to call with worse. We can easily call turn probe and then win money sometimes by checking back when opponent checks river on a brick.
I see the logic of betting with such a strong draw but I think I'd be inclined to play this hand passively and barrel with my AhXh
Played just fine. Live life abundantly everyone.
This villain had no clue what he was doing.
Check-calling out of position on flop with JTclubs and donking river?
What is the purpose of a donkbet on the river here?
You will never get called by worse and you will never fold out better.
Live poker is so much fun.
I get the sense that the villain donked in hopes of avoiding having to call a larger bet, knowing he won’t be able to fold to anything but maybe a jam, but probably would end up calling jam thinking hero might be bluffing.
I put villain on pocket 10's or Jack's as I was listening from the beginning. Very interesting river bet sizing. Shocking to see Jc10c. What was villain calling with on the flop. I may have folded to a river jam as I felt villain had jacks but I would've had to think it over for a long while
There are people who block-bet and forget to fold. If he's one of them, then shoving is the play. If not, it seems like it's about 50/50. There are a handful of weaker hand that will call, and about the same number of stronger hands as well.
Hero played it great the River is tough jamming the block bet I really don’t think much worse is calling other than the queen high flush I honestly think hero got the most money out of this hand
I thought the bet on the end was fishy. Hero played his hand like a big pocket pair. I was starting to get the feeling this small river bet was meant to induce a raise. Obviously hard to get a feel for that when not at the table with the players. Knowing the result, a check/evaluate call seems like a smarter play for top pair. Hero lost some value, but not a bad call on the end I think.
the block bet works to prevent hero from bluffing him off of 2pair... doesnt need to be called by a lesser hand
Does it also have fold equity against QQ, KK, AA?
@@Trust_but_Verify if hero raises , yes obviously
@@italianwaterice9594If hero raises the bet, that means villain’s bet doesn’t have fold equity. He’s saying if his bet can’t get called by worse or get better to fold, it’s a bad bet.
@ 300 is the limit on what he wants to call,,, it blocks losing to a bluff,, or an overbet,,, ,this isnt online poker
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If you’re afraid to call a large bet, by block betting you’re at best getting zero value once your opponent folds, you’re getting called by better, or you’re getting bluff or value raised. If you’re not calling a raise, and you’re betting solely to get a worse hand to not put any more money in, it’s literally a losing bet.
Gut is to jam here. If caller thinks he has 90% equity you gotta jam. There were some reasons for calling - i listened to trhem, and you convinced me a little. Then when you reveal JTs this makes it a slam dunk jam.
It doesn’t matter if you’re beating 90% of villain’s hands if none of the 90% of hands you’re beating will call you still can’t raise.
So, sure he showed up with JTs but would JTs really call a jam? Maybe if V is a station.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj might as well take the chance. you're scooping the pot whether you just call or you jam and he folds.. so go for the extra value. players talk themselves into crazy calls all the time.
I love when bad players make horrendous flop peels and then can’t even play the hand out well. JT leading there is closer to a bluff than a value bet
QTs shouldn't even be opening UTG to begin with in a 9max game, let alone call a 3b. the low suiteds are supposed to always defend to 3bets but they also rarely open to begin with. bart said it perfectly, Jh is basically the worst draw complete card for hero. JJ is extremely feasible played this way and V has almost zero flushes that he would call jam with due to card removal.
A ton of people at these stakes DON'T have folds when they open and got 3 bets. I know 2/5 regulars who I've literally never seen fold to a 3 bet after they opened. Also, don't jam, just click it back to get a call out of a 5. Especially if you're capable of folding even getting an insane price if he 3 bets river cause you're definitely beat.
If I open raise with KJ off and I get 3 bet. I'm folding the great majority of the time. And at my local room, because 3 bets don't happen much preflop, a lot of players assume AA, KK or AK and players just fold.
@danielmeuler2877 KJo is an awful open UTG at a full ring 5/5 game. But also, I didn't say NO ONE folds, I said you can't assume a 5/5 player folds an appropriate amount of the range he opened after getting 3 bet.
@Jermo484 also, I have never played a 5-5 game. It's 2-5 or 1-3
@danielmeuler2877 5/5 and 2/5 aren't going to play different in any meaningful way.
@Jermo484 that was kind of what I figured.
All options are on the table.
If I am the villain here w/ Jc10c I would prolly reraise the turn for about 70-75% of the pot or even shove all in!😂
I'm shoving here all day long. Bart is a good teacher, but he focuses too much on the range of hands the opponents could have by the end of the river. If you look at your OWN range of hands, you are weighted way more heavily to having over pairs to the board on the flop instead of a flush draw which got there on the river(you obviously could have some combos of that but it cancels out as those possible flush draw combos are in your opponents range as well judging from the way the hand's been played) and therefore, with the view of my OWN range of hands I could have and the opponents range of hands, I SHOVE all in to the bet on the river, with my hand that's almost at the top of my range
Raise to 700 on river
You are getting very good at the clickbait image. 😂
This was an interesting hand imo
pure river call to me...its a pretty goofy bet by villian that makes no sense for his hand... i think he just was hoping the flush coming in was scary to you .... maybe... and so no you will fold to a 1/3 1/2 bet ? its a pretty stupid bet but i think he was attempting a semi bluff his sizing is all wrong.
1 of the worst just calls river that I ever saw in my life
Min click river
Lots of mental m@sturb@tion in these vids 💯 (this one, included); the majority of these hands are simply not that complicated. Someone can talk for 20 minutes about how best to crack an egg, too... but, again... mostly mental w@nking.
skip the river mania if he over bets turn we want the fold period. the river keeps bring kaos so much .
So are you saying this will blow my mind because he DIDN'T jam? Or are you just a click baiting mfer because you made it sound like he shouldn't jam in this situation.
Absolutely mind blowing flat by the caller!
$330 is an obvious blocker. correct move is to jam there since SPR is ~ 1.
if he had duces or 8s, i dont think hes leading out there
Min raise click is nonsense.