The algorithm brought me to you and boy am I glad it did. You are very clear and I learned a ton by watching stuff and you inspired me to want to make my own speakers as my next project.
In the last video I criticized you because it was incomplete. Now I have to praise you because everything that was left out the previous time is clearer. I owe you an apology and I can only say, - well done boy!!
Hi, I purchased the Epic plan, it includes the crossover that gives it the sound you wanted, I need to finish the the box driver I started for the GRS 12 subwoofer
I stopped to check and there are indeed the ingredients for a crossover, for a moment I realized that you are professional and will do everything to complete the projects you are doing,Sorry if there was any doubt about you 🙂
Plans are in hand and components are on order. As others have mentioned the PRs and a few of the crossover components are back ordered but I need to finish a couple of other projects so I can wait. Hope these sound as good as expected. At $1000 I could have ordered the popular and beautiful Wharfedale Evo 4.2s.
Great follow up! Would love to see a collaboration with Erin so he could measure them with his klippel and give his personal opinion on the sound of these speakers. I'm guessing he would be impressed and it might give your channel some more exposure.
Planning a similar build! Designing a TMM Tower with their bigger cousins, the e180HE. Going to use dual Dayton reference 10 passive radiators to really juice up the power handling and output potential. Hoping to tune it into the low 20s. Planning on staying in brand with the fabric reference tweeter too from Dayton :)
That sounds like a really great build. Please share it with me when you're finished. I would really love to see it. If you want to put it on the forum, I'm sure a lot of other people would enjoy seeing it as well.
The suspension of those don't seem to be linear enaugh as most pr's those are an after thought so you can guess the PR Xmax is more similar to what the woofer of that PR has. Probably would use a seas roy one as it's suspension linearity seems to be great. Maybe a Transmission line?
Great video. What would be awesome is a video on how to choose upgrade woofers for speakers boxes we already have. If that is possible, without straying so much from an optimal box for the upgrade drivers. Hope that makes sense
I have XBL^2 woofers on my Chane speakers and I've not seen/heard a cleaner sounding speaker yet. What I mean by that is even playing down well below tuning. Like 30Hz. There's zero distortion until you push it to its limits. And only when it's at its limits does it start to distort. I plan on getting CSS subwoofers to replace my Ultimax 12s soon. Only because the Ultimax 12s show signs of distortion due to BL loss above tuning at louder levels nowhere near rated power. Though for the price the Ultimax 12s handle 16Hz+ fantasticly. Easily doing 110dB+ from 16Hz+ with minimal to no distortion using two of them.
High excursion drivers are usually not my cup of tea, but interesting build for sure. Dayton claims 83dB nominal, but in the datasheet it's more like 80 in the midrange. That's still not bad for a long throw speaker of just 5" and looking at it, it's a wonder there's any useful output beyond 1kHz at all, wow. I still wonder though, how much Doppler effect distortion will there be, with that enormous cone travel yet (I presume) quite high LPF frequency...
Nice project, utilizing some interesting drivers. One correction though, which someone may have already mentioned somewhere upthread. Paralleling woofers doesn’t result in a 3dB increase in SPL, it results in a 6dB increase. So, even better. It’s correct that you obtain +3dB from dual woofers because they draw and convert twice the total power of a single woofer. You obtain an additional +3dB, however, from what is called Acoustic Coupling, for a total of +6dB. An array of four paralleled woofers would product +12dB over a single woofer, and so on. Which is why large arrays can produce such dramatic increases in output. Acoustic Coupling is a highly localized air pressure phenomena that occurs because dual woofers each see an increased radiation impedance over that of a single woofer. Increasing the radiation impedance makes for a more efficient transfer of acoustic power. The increase is not, excuse the pun, out of thin air, it’s from an increased efficiency. That makes sense because each woofer in a dual woofer configuration creates a local increased air pressure zone for its partner.
Your a genius when it comes to building speakers but PLEASE monitor your website forum. There are questions that I have asked that are still not answered. I'm on the verge of building three Cinema 10 speakers but I need answers! Thanks and keep up the great work.
I appreciate this follow up video on this speaker build. It was great to hear you talk about efficiency and distortion of your woofers and also see where your crossover point was. When I look up the frequency response of that tweeter it shows it only goes down to 2kHz. For a $200 tweeter (after tax) It would be a risky move for most trying to use it that low. I am thinking there would be some excursion limits for the tweeter being used at 1.6KHz? I am subscribed to your channel and appreciate the things I have learned from your videos but there is no way I can afford to pay for a patronage on all of my favorite RUclips channels.
I completely understand and respect that. It's not possible. And I really appreciate everyone that helps support me in any way they can. Whether that be just buying plans occasionally or clicking on affiliate links or just watching the videos. It's all very helpful and I appreciate all of it. And especially enjoy reading comments from you. I know you comment quite often and I really do appreciate that. It's a good thing to remember as well that when a manufacturer of the Tweeter recommends a certain crossover point, they are typically recommending it with a second order crossover. And so you can cross it over lower by using a higher order crossover. I've done this quite often then builds where I need to get just a little bit more juice out of a particular driver.
I think Morel wouldn't recommend me crossing the CAT378 at 1,35khz yet it deals with it pretty damn well. The distortion doesn't rise in the crossover region. Like he already said. He is using a rather steep crossover so no problem.
7:00 What about using a dual channel amp per box, where you use 1 channel per each Epique speaker, keeping it at 4ohms? Wouldn't that have a similar gain in sensitivity?
Great question. However if you used a dual channel amp, you would need the amplifier to be capable of 2ohm. Let's do the fact that the epique drivers are dual 4 ohm voice coils so they can either be wired to 2 ohm or 8 ohm. But you could get lower sensitivity by doing that as long as you can find an amplifier capable of it.
@@Toid oh yes, I see what you mean, but it seems you are considering still 2 Epiques per box. My idea with the dual channel amp per side was to avoid using 2 subs and instead just 1, with the hope that driving each coil at 4ohms would improve its sensitivity.
@@ralmslb having wiring each amp channel to one coil would definitely help, but there's only so much bass you can get from a 5 1/4 driver. Even one with as much throw as the epique.
Very interesting. I'm in the planning stage of building my new speakers, and i have been looking a lot at open baffle . But seeing the amazing quality of Daton Audio elements, i'm considering building a pair , using 4xEpique E150HE-44 5-1/2" in each, with a passive radiator sidemounted, 1xDayton Audio RS100-8 4" Reference Full-Range Driver for the mids and 1xDayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter for the highs. Ofc the biggest problem here is the wiring and getting a crossover that maximizes the performance while keeping the Ohm around 8 while also trying to get the sensetivity up... 83db is really really low and my current speakers are sitting at 96...
I noticed Dayton Audio just released the OPAL1's using this same mid woofer. But they only used one mid-woofer per speaker. I think your design of using two per speaker is much better and If only for the increased sensitivity.
They did. And I agree I think that you really should have two per speaker. The cool thing about this design is it really doesn’t cost that much more than the Opal1’s. So if you’re willing to put the work in, this would seem to be a much better value.
Is it a 2 way or a 2,5 way? A 2 way MMT design will have the acoustic center a bit far so I would cross the bottom woofer at 250-350 somewhere. Otherwise a really nice design and good job!
There's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
what an incredible explination for people just learning. while im an advanced builder i still love the way you present things and wath for enjoyment. I have to ask, since you tried both these and the Karteisan mini subs, if you were going for a 3 way compact build, would you use these sealed or the kartesian, i have tried neither and would love your take between both
@@Toid i was trying to make it super narrow with 4 inch coaxial and 2 small drivers. i was comparing between the epic 5 and karteisan and curious how much better the epic is mostly. for small home environment. well technically these would be 4 way, since the coaxial is mtm with matching 4 inch woofers. the SB PAC series. Just a fun project. My main concern was power handeling with a coax, and 2 mid bass, with 2 more drivers for sub base
@@djfirestormx oh okay. You wouldn't go wrong with either. However, I'd probably still go with the Epique, if you are doing it sealed. With us higher excursion, it should give you more than enough bass while allowing some DSP if necessary.
Quick question, when you take the speaker kHz reading to figure out crossover point do you break in the tweeter first? I only ask because the Dayton reference tweeter I used was really bright for the first few hours until it breaks in. It was very very noticeable.
Hi Nick! I built the speakers this winter and I really enjoy them! 💫 I'm using rePhase to do phase correction and I was hoping you could help me out: - Tweeter crossover; "LR 12 dB/oct" @ 1600 Hz (third order, 18 dB/oct, not an option in rePhase) - Box; "vented low Q" @ 45 Hz Are these the correct settings to use? "Inverted polarity" turned on. I see the PR's tops out at 125 W, do I damage the PR's if I hypothetically feed the full 480 RMS to each speaker?
The answer is yes and no depends on what you mean in terms of sound yes in terms of cost no especially bookshelf speakers I make an 8 inch two way bookshelf speaker for about 300$ a pair (my cost) sounds great I have sold a few My 8 inch 3 way bookshelf I can make for about 450 a pair (my cost) People love them I've sold many The real cost savings in diy speakers are the big boys My floor standing speakers are each one has 2 8 inch woofers two 8 inch planar mid range speakers and four 3.5 inch planar tweeters I built these for around 1100$ on cherry live edge slabs 1.5 inches thick they are open baffles on the top woofers in a box If you have a passion for music and a little carpentry skills then read up about crossover design and try a small cheap set first and go from there My first three way was built of nominal pine wood (cheap at home Depot) with cheap drivers that matched in spl. So crossover would be easy to design and ohms 🙂 First try no good 😊 second try on crossover much better And they were built with a circular saw and drill only power tools I used So if you have passion give it a go if not buy yourself some good ones and be happy with them My floor standing speakers are probably in the 3-4 thousand dollars range but I'll never sell them I love them Best of luck to you
It is not, I never built a MTM. Having said that, there's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
I was wondering about logging issues. I been reading that some designs are 2.5 . I was trying to design a tmm and I been reading about that so I was wondering how you dealt with combing issues. Thanks
That is a great question. A lot of this has to do with the crossover point and the size of the drivers used. When used in a 2-way these two drivers act like one driver. And as such you can minimize most of the issues by crossing over low enough. Think of it as a typical two way just using a larger woofer. I went over this in more detail in my latest build The Rule Breaker. Also Jeff Bagby talks about it in more detail here: techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way I would highly suggest you watch the Rule Breaker, as it is a very unique design that shows the power of how the crossover point can have a dramatic impact on speaker performance.
@@Toid thanks I appreciate the response. I was going to try to design a tmm or mtm but I was reading about that issue and I want to make sure I don't have that problem.Thanks again.
Good info after watching the build. One issue you can have with a design like this is phase issues in the vertical off axis because the centre to centre distance from the tweeter is mid way between the two woofers. Danny Richie always corrects for this by converting to two and a half way, crossing he tweeter to only the upper woofer and let the lower woofer handle the lower mid and bass. But this might be problematic with these dual voice coil drivers. But it looks like you got a good crossover design here. Did you measure vertical off axis ?
Great point! I watched this because I’m designing a 2 woofer 3 way and am trying to figure out if I need to do a 3.5 way. I’ll be crossing them at around 1000hz.
@@alexw890 watch the various upgrade videos of (mostly Klipsch) speakers on GR-Research channel to see the effect of not doing the 3.,5 way. makes a big impact
After adjusting the wiring of the woofers to make them 4ohm and with the tweeter being 8 ohm, will these work with a vintage amp that is rated at 8 ohm output?
Hi. Can a port ie dia and lengthy size make up (correct) for a woofer enclosure that should be 66 Litres as per the spec recommendation but is only 56 litres ? Cheers
great info thanks I want to build some speakers along the line of a ADS speaker 780 or similar, is it best going with new drivers or starting with used ADS drivers ...?
ok thanks . I have a set of Klipsch kg4 , I like them but don't LOVE them ...( I have limited experience with high end speakers) want to build something nicer maybe softer..? I'm a cabinet maker by trade so I know I can build a nicer box :) @@Toid
Any chance of re-doing the PR Voxel with the 5" Epique? It seems like it would be an amazing '2.0'. Would it be just a drop-in, or would the box size have to change? I've tried to WinISD this myself, and I just can't wrap my head around everything. 😕
I second this, I saw parts-express has them now. Would be great to update your epic design to support them. Also, What kind of power would be ideal for these? Saw your video about the upstream plate amp and that if it had enough power for these would be great to utilize if it’s ample power for these?
I thought that different drivers are supposed to be in separate chambers for good sound quality. But it seems like it's ok to mix and match in the same enclosure? Like your tweeters sharing the same air as your woofers. Could you maybe explain how you decide the size of the enclosure in this kind of system? WinISD only seems capable of 1 type of driver at a time. I am struggling to find good info on how you design this type of arrangement.
That’s a great question. You are absolutely correct. However, a Tweeter, like this is already in its own sealed enclosure. A.k.a. the Tweeter itself is sealed. In general, most tweeters are sealed. Since the woofers are being crossed over together, they act as one woofer meaning they can share the same cavity. If I was doing a three-way with a Tweeter, mid range and woofer, than the tweeter can share the same cavity as either the mid range, or the woofer. since it’s already sealed. However, the woofer and mid range need to be in their own separate cavities. I’m WinISD, you would measure each one separately. These are good questions, and if you have more like it, you should join the forum at www.toidsdiyaudio.com/forums
from what i heard it doesnt matter if you wire in parralel or serries, the speaker efficiency doesn't change, only the amplifier load changes, since the coils are still the same, 8 ohm coils less sensitive, than 4 ohms, just by rewiring them in parralel only makes the amplifier receive 4 ohm load, but the speakers individual sensitivity should still be the same, or am I wrong ?
I think you’re getting a little confused. There’s some basic principles that can help you with this math. Just by adding one woofer you get +3 dB in sensitivity. However, adding that particular woofer will either increase or decrease the impedance. If our impedance increases (as in the number goes up), we will lose 3 dB in sensitivity. If our impedance decreases, we will gain an additional 3 dB in sensitivity. So if we took two 4ohm drivers and added them in series, we would get +3 dB for adding an additional woofer and -3 dB for now getting in an 8ohm load. For a net of 0 dB increase. However, if we were to wire them in parallel, we would get +3 dB for adding an additional woofer and an additional +3 dB for lowering our impedance to two ohm for an increase of +6 dB. So you’re partially correct in the essence that you have to take into account the added woofer plus the impedance change to know if you’re getting any sensitivity increase.
hi , i love your videos man . i learned a lot from you . can you tell me whats the differences in the MTM crossover and TMM crossover or make a video about that ? thanks for the video .
Thank you. There is no difference in the crossover themselves, assuming the TMM is a 2 way like this versus a 2.5 way. In the case of a two way a the signal of an MTM and TMM would both be spilt between the woofers and the tweeter. However, that doesn’t mean they use the same crossover. Once you start rearranging the drivers, you can change the phase relationship. So you need to take that into account when you design a custom crossover. So, although they will be the same type of crossover, they won’t necessarily be the same crossover.
As a hifi noob these videos are a lot to take in but incredibly helpful so thank you so much! I do have a question and that is about impedance. When using 2 woofers and 1 tweeter does the impedance have to match or not? Can the crossover take care of the difference? And what difference do you get in sound when they are different? For instance, an 8 ohm tweeter and 2x 4 ohm woofer in parallel making the 8 ohm... Or what if you only have an 8 ohm tweeter and 2x 8 ohm woofer available? Can you still make this work?
That’s a great question. I actually did a video on that explaining it here: ruclips.net/video/MMTGDiLjsZ0/видео.html The short answer is yes. But it’s a little more complex than that
@@Toid Thank you! I understood some of that video haha. I always thought impedance of the drivers should match and not only between the complete speaker and the amp. Is it possible to have a 3-way crossover but then have 2 outputs doing tge same thing? So then basically you separate the woofers but they each receive the same signal.. Sorry if it's a dumb question
Thanks for the explainer! If the box size and tuning weights were properly adapted, would the 7" drivers work well in this application, or would the high-end of the woofer suffer, needing a different crossover design?
The 7-inch would probably work fine, however your main issue with the 7 inches it already has a baffle step compensation built into it. I think if I remember correctly I should do very well on something like a 10-in baffle. Anyway, by adding a second 7" Epique you will get a rise on your low end down to your baffle step.
@@Toid thanks for your reply. I keep coming back to this great video as I read and learn more. Do you think the Puntkilde tweeter would work well for this application as well w/r/t linearity and power delivery or would you worry that the 30W limit wouldn't be enough for home theater HiFi?
It does have the crossover diagram in the plans as well as links to the parts. If you have any issues with it you are always welcome to email me if you need.
Yeah the passive radiator was kind of a compromised on this build. Honestly it gets louder than I needed to so I don't need more power. The major issue was once you go to a different passive radiator that works with full power tell me you're spending a significant more amount of money. However when the epique passive radiators come in, I'm sure tha I'll try them in it. According to Zarbo audio projects latest , they should be relatively similar price to these. If that is the case, that should be an easy swap out.
Nice video, have watched a few of yours. Question...is there any better programs than WinISD for box design? I can't seem to get WinISD to work no matter what I do. It "red lights" every driver, even the ones that come standard with it.
I believe you are mistaken claiming that "theoretical" gain is 6dB. 3dB gain is by double the cone area maintaining the power. Also 3dB by double the power. You add another speaker so cone area x2 but the profits of lowering the resonence by half gave you nothing cause you have to split it to two speakers now. So each 4ohm driver have the same amount of power that one driver on 8 ohm. Your gain now is just by cone area and thats "theoretical" 3dB. Sorry for my English. Love your show in Poland!
So you get the three decibel gain like you said by putting the second driver in. You also get the three decibels because you're basically doubling the power. The reason why you're doubling the power is previously the speaker was an 8 ohm impedance and now it's a 4ohm impedance. halving the impedance gives you a theoretical three decibel boost with the same voltage. Just gives you a total of a theoretical six decibel boost.
Well let's do the math I'll bring specs to something that gives us simple results ok? Dayton is 8ohm total so 8Ohm = 100w power for 1 speaker =90dB Now let's add another speaker and you end up with total 4Ohm impedance so 4Ohm = 200w power for 2 speakers = 200w divide by 2 is 2 x 100w so 90dB + 90dB = only 3dB. And that's it. Nothing more you can add to this. If You would double the speakers and than double the powet for EACH one of them, than; 2 x 200w = 2 x 93dB = 96dB but that's not your case. You did double the power but than split it on two... No gain here.
@@danielczajkowski7702 we measure sensitivity at 2.83v since amplifiers have a constant load. Both woofers are going to be receiving the same voltage. Since this is the case you follow the formula 20 log(2) which is a little over 6db theoretical boost in sensitivity. You appear to be talking about efficiency which is a different concept than sensitivity.
@@Toid it has more to do with the crossover right? It's not about real efficiency but more about crossover integration if i see it right? But i have come to this video because i was curious about the midrange, how does it sound compared to other woofers?? Nice build!!!
@@Toid Have you measured vertical off-axis frequency response? Usually such designs demonstrate very large dip around crossover frequency at 30, 45 and 60 degrees above the axis. As I recall, Vance Dickason also suggested either 2-way MTM or 2-1/2-way TMM.
@@IliyaOsnovikov Yes and it is a common misunderstanding that has led to treating this s as a rule. Instead of explaining it myself, I’ll steer you to Jeff Bagby who, is believed to be the creator of the cascaded 2.5 way crossover. Look at post 5 by Jeff to get a better understanding; techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
The best thing to do is buy some measurement equipment and get on the forum. From there we can help you once you have your measurements. Without your measurements, we’re just making some educated guesses that may or may not work out in your favor. www.toidsdiyaudio.com
@@Divyesh_Sinha ok, thanks, why don't you use a bigger passive? You can use 2 each side? There are even higher xmax PR i think. Sundown audio, jlaudio ..al those extreme subwoofer brands!
Have you considered doing a mass loaded transmission line design? They are more involved than a sealed or ported design, but programs like Hornresp do all the heavy lifting, as it were. I find that not only the bass quality and extension are top notch - but also the midrange sounds completely "unboxy". So soundstage is fantastic.
The main issue with mltls is that they're massive. And you can generally get better results from using a larger woofer in a ported or even sealed box that's the same size. Tho there are definitely applications where it's the best option, it's fairly niche
@@blakebrockhaus347 I have designed several and no, they are not massive. As I said they have the best bass extension and quality that I have heard. My latest design called MLTL-6 uses a 6" paper cone woofer from SB Acoustics, and is essentially flat in room to ~32Hz. It is 21.5"H x 9"W x 16"D, so not small certainly, but not huge. I have a tower version, that should extend to ~28Hz (flat in room) which is 1 meter (39.375") tall x 8"W x 14" D - which is pretty slim, actually. Getting more extension from a smaller woofer has a big advantage - a smaller driver has lower Mms (the driver I use is
@@Toid That would be great. I think that mass loaded transmission lines are *much* better than they used to be; because we now have programs to design them. The placement of the woofer inside the TL, plus the right taper extends the bass lower for a given woofer. If you're interested, I would be happy to share my plans for the MLTL-6 with you. It is a 21.5" high stand mount 2-way design; with a 6" paper cone woofer & 1" soft dome tweeter. Total cost of drivers is ~$150. It has 3 internal baffles plus a brace. The woofer I am using has an Fs of 35Hz, while the fundamental frequency of the speaker is 32Hz. The driver is 89.5dB sensitive, and I haven't measured it, I think the speaker is possibly more sensitive than that; because the output from the back of the driver is utilized.
Hi. I bought you build plans and was trying to assemble parts. Would it be possible to use 6-1/2” passive radiators rather than the 8” you have spec’s? If so, would it affect the crossover at all, and how? The Dayton DAS 215 PR 8” passives are back ordered for 3 months. Looking for another option that isn’t too expensive. Thx. Jim
HELP..! on finding 3 way crossovers...my local RadioShack went out of business in 09. they had a going out of business sale, so i got a set of Bose 10'' 3 way (mid-twit) speakers. they didn't have 3 way crossovers in stock. them Bose have been setting in my attic since 09. i want to DYI a set of floor speakers, ole skool style. agian, help?
Go to parts express. I turned some crappy technics into really good speakers with some new new replacement woofers and tweeters and crossovers and some reinforcement
I wanted to ask about the difference between Ported and enclosed speakers. I have been reading sealed speakers tend to sound more accurate and not "boomy". If a ported speaker that is designed with a flat response. and a similar speaker but designed with a sealed enclosure with the same low frequency response at 3db down (obviously with a larger enclosure). Is the sealed speaker going to sound more accurate as compared to the ported speaker described? Or is the ported speakers that are described as boomy simply just made incorrectly to sound that way?
That’s a tricky question to answer. In general if designed correct then, yes…maybe. A sealed speaker will still have lower group delay than a ported, which is often interpreted as tighter bass. How audible group delay is at lower frequencies is still very much a contested debate. So depending on what your beliefs are on group delay and at what delay it makes an audible difference would depend on the answer to this question. Unfortunately this is not as easy to answer.
I'm just going to copy and paste my comment from up above. Here you go: There's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
Very intriguing build. But I am a little frustrated by the fact the crossover never made an appearance in either video. You talked about tuning the passive radiator and doing a cut off on the tweeter at the point of distortion. Why not just flash a image of these proecesses. I know you intentionally held a little back as a teaser for patreon but I think the crossover was such a primary part of the speaker build that you could have at least showed it being wired up . Oh yeah and what about the sound demo?
I was very interested in building these but I was wondering if I can drive them with my pioneer Vsx avr 80 watts rms and are they good for music. They look awesome!!!
@@BostonMike68 there’s a link in the description to the forum on the specific speakers. Otherwise, the main forum address is www.toidsdiyaudio.com/forums
Nice video, Question. Have you ever made something using the best parts available? That is, scanspeak or SEAS drivers or something equivalent? All I see are ‘ cheaper’ drivers in most DIY builds with the exception of some Troels Gravesen builds. I would like to see something like that. It seems like DYI speakers only are for cheaper builds. Thanks , love your videos and explanation !
what are the non-linear distortion figures at 90db spl on 500hz? 100hz? 1Khz? This high excursion low efficiency driver is all about low dynamics heavy cone, with a lot of intermodulation distortion (bass guitar modulating singers voice as an example). I doubt this will do a clean 30hz without having 60hz and 120hz clearly apparent where your ears are far more sensitive, a clean 20Hz is just pressure on your ears, you should hear nothing, I'll bet you will have tons of 40 and 80hz harmonics which you will clearly hear. another one trying to dey the laws of physics
The algorithm brought me to you and boy am I glad it did. You are very clear and I learned a ton by watching stuff and you inspired me to want to make my own speakers as my next project.
In the last video I criticized you because it was incomplete. Now I have to praise you because everything that was left out the previous time is clearer. I owe you an apology and I can only say, - well done boy!!
No worries. I’m glad you found it helpful.
Boy? It's disrespectful to call a man boy.
You promised and you made the video, Thank you I really appreciate.
I have no interest in building these speakers, but I really enjoyed your talk on them. Shop Talk, Bench Rap, what ever you call it, well done.
Hi, I purchased the Epic plan, it includes the crossover that gives it the sound you wanted, I need to finish the the box driver I started for the GRS 12 subwoofer
I stopped to check and there are indeed the ingredients for a crossover, for a moment I realized that you are professional and will do everything to complete the projects you are doing,Sorry if there was any doubt about you 🙂
Plans are in hand and components are on order. As others have mentioned the PRs and a few of the crossover components are back ordered but I need to finish a couple of other projects so I can wait.
Hope these sound as good as expected. At $1000 I could have ordered the popular and beautiful Wharfedale Evo 4.2s.
Great follow up! Would love to see a collaboration with Erin so he could measure them with his klippel and give his personal opinion on the sound of these speakers. I'm guessing he would be impressed and it might give your channel some more exposure.
Yeah I need to talk to Aaron about doing some collaboration sometime. I would love to do some with him. I know that we both been very busy.
Thanks!
amazing videos. so much knowledge. thanks for sharing. very interesting stuff.
Planning a similar build! Designing a TMM Tower with their bigger cousins, the e180HE. Going to use dual Dayton reference 10 passive radiators to really juice up the power handling and output potential. Hoping to tune it into the low 20s.
Planning on staying in brand with the fabric reference tweeter too from Dayton :)
That sounds like a really great build. Please share it with me when you're finished. I would really love to see it. If you want to put it on the forum, I'm sure a lot of other people would enjoy seeing it as well.
The suspension of those don't seem to be linear enaugh as most pr's those are an after thought so you can guess the PR Xmax is more similar to what the woofer of that PR has. Probably would use a seas roy one as it's suspension linearity seems to be great.
Maybe a Transmission line?
Did you do the e180 build?
Great Video Nick. I always learn something new by watching one of your vids.
You talk about home theater use. I would love to see a matching center channel for this set.
Great video. What would be awesome is a video on how to choose upgrade woofers for speakers boxes we already have. If that is possible, without straying so much from an optimal box for the upgrade drivers.
Hope that makes sense
I have XBL^2 woofers on my Chane speakers and I've not seen/heard a cleaner sounding speaker yet. What I mean by that is even playing down well below tuning. Like 30Hz. There's zero distortion until you push it to its limits. And only when it's at its limits does it start to distort.
I plan on getting CSS subwoofers to replace my Ultimax 12s soon. Only because the Ultimax 12s show signs of distortion due to BL loss above tuning at louder levels nowhere near rated power. Though for the price the Ultimax 12s handle 16Hz+ fantasticly. Easily doing 110dB+ from 16Hz+ with minimal to no distortion using two of them.
That CSS sdx12 is the cleanest sounding 12 I've heard. I think you will be very happy with that choice.
Amazing video Nick! You really have these summaries down to a fine art! 👍
Thanks Elliot. I really appreciate hearing that.
High excursion drivers are usually not my cup of tea, but interesting build for sure. Dayton claims 83dB nominal, but in the datasheet it's more like 80 in the midrange.
That's still not bad for a long throw speaker of just 5" and looking at it, it's a wonder there's any useful output beyond 1kHz at all, wow.
I still wonder though, how much Doppler effect distortion will there be, with that enormous cone travel yet (I presume) quite high LPF frequency...
Great discussion! And definitely see the uglies in the orientation now that you showed it.
Thanks AJC
Nice project, utilizing some interesting drivers. One correction though, which someone may have already mentioned somewhere upthread. Paralleling woofers doesn’t result in a 3dB increase in SPL, it results in a 6dB increase. So, even better. It’s correct that you obtain +3dB from dual woofers because they draw and convert twice the total power of a single woofer. You obtain an additional +3dB, however, from what is called Acoustic Coupling, for a total of +6dB. An array of four paralleled woofers would product +12dB over a single woofer, and so on. Which is why large arrays can produce such dramatic increases in output.
Acoustic Coupling is a highly localized air pressure phenomena that occurs because dual woofers each see an increased radiation impedance over that of a single woofer. Increasing the radiation impedance makes for a more efficient transfer of acoustic power. The increase is not, excuse the pun, out of thin air, it’s from an increased efficiency. That makes sense because each woofer in a dual woofer configuration creates a local increased air pressure zone for its partner.
Thank you. I actually mentioned the +6dB increase in the 7 minute mark. I appreciate the reminder for those that are unaware.
Your a genius when it comes to building speakers but PLEASE monitor your website forum. There are questions that I have asked that are still not answered. I'm on the verge of building three Cinema 10 speakers but I need answers! Thanks and keep up the great work.
Love it! Nice one Toid
I appreciate this follow up video on this speaker build. It was great to hear you talk about efficiency and distortion of your woofers and also see where your crossover point was. When I look up the frequency response of that tweeter it shows it only goes down to 2kHz. For a $200 tweeter (after tax) It would be a risky move for most trying to use it that low. I am thinking there would be some excursion limits for the tweeter being used at 1.6KHz? I am subscribed to your channel and appreciate the things I have learned from your videos but there is no way I can afford to pay for a patronage on all of my favorite RUclips channels.
I completely understand and respect that. It's not possible. And I really appreciate everyone that helps support me in any way they can. Whether that be just buying plans occasionally or clicking on affiliate links or just watching the videos. It's all very helpful and I appreciate all of it. And especially enjoy reading comments from you. I know you comment quite often and I really do appreciate that. It's a good thing to remember as well that when a manufacturer of the Tweeter recommends a certain crossover point, they are typically recommending it with a second order crossover. And so you can cross it over lower by using a higher order crossover. I've done this quite often then builds where I need to get just a little bit more juice out of a particular driver.
I think Morel wouldn't recommend me crossing the CAT378 at 1,35khz yet it deals with it pretty damn well. The distortion doesn't rise in the crossover region. Like he already said. He is using a rather steep crossover so no problem.
@@Toid Thank you, I will keep that in mind in future builds on potentially using a tweeter a little lower by simply using a higher order crossover.
Waiting to see how the matching passive radiators look like.
I completely agree. Those I'm really interested in. I'll try to get some when they come out and see if I can do a mini review on them.
7:00 What about using a dual channel amp per box, where you use 1 channel per each Epique speaker, keeping it at 4ohms? Wouldn't that have a similar gain in sensitivity?
Great question. However if you used a dual channel amp, you would need the amplifier to be capable of 2ohm. Let's do the fact that the epique drivers are dual 4 ohm voice coils so they can either be wired to 2 ohm or 8 ohm. But you could get lower sensitivity by doing that as long as you can find an amplifier capable of it.
@@Toid oh yes, I see what you mean, but it seems you are considering still 2 Epiques per box. My idea with the dual channel amp per side was to avoid using 2 subs and instead just 1, with the hope that driving each coil at 4ohms would improve its sensitivity.
@@ralmslb having wiring each amp channel to one coil would definitely help, but there's only so much bass you can get from a 5 1/4 driver. Even one with as much throw as the epique.
Very interesting. I'm in the planning stage of building my new speakers, and i have been looking a lot at open baffle .
But seeing the amazing quality of Daton Audio elements, i'm considering building a pair , using 4xEpique E150HE-44 5-1/2" in each, with a passive radiator sidemounted, 1xDayton Audio RS100-8 4" Reference Full-Range Driver for the mids and 1xDayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter for the highs.
Ofc the biggest problem here is the wiring and getting a crossover that maximizes the performance while keeping the Ohm around 8 while also trying to get the sensetivity up... 83db is really really low and my current speakers are sitting at 96...
I need a pair of those now!
I noticed Dayton Audio just released the OPAL1's using this same mid woofer. But they only used one mid-woofer per speaker. I think your design of using two per speaker is much better and If only for the increased sensitivity.
They did. And I agree I think that you really should have two per speaker. The cool thing about this design is it really doesn’t cost that much more than the Opal1’s. So if you’re willing to put the work in, this would seem to be a much better value.
Is it a 2 way or a 2,5 way? A 2 way MMT design will have the acoustic center a bit far so I would cross the bottom woofer at 250-350 somewhere. Otherwise a really nice design and good job!
There's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
7:30 Where did you get such a nice cables? Even if they are diy I havent seen nice colorful cables that look quality
I like listening to you and Danny at Gr reach. You guy’s give us the facts. Thank you 4 that.
PS: any thoughts on Gr Reach?
Really interested to see how these perform with a midrange/tweeter planar like grs/bg
what an incredible explination for people just learning. while im an advanced builder i still love the way you present things and wath for enjoyment. I have to ask, since you tried both these and the Karteisan mini subs, if you were going for a 3 way compact build, would you use these sealed or the kartesian, i have tried neither and would love your take between both
If I was doing a three-way I would use probably the 7" Epique. The Kartesian is really too small for a three way (4").
@@Toid i was trying to make it super narrow with 4 inch coaxial and 2 small drivers. i was comparing between the epic 5 and karteisan and curious how much better the epic is mostly. for small home environment. well technically these would be 4 way, since the coaxial is mtm with matching 4 inch woofers. the SB PAC series. Just a fun project. My main concern was power handeling with a coax, and 2 mid bass, with 2 more drivers for sub base
@@djfirestormx oh okay. You wouldn't go wrong with either. However, I'd probably still go with the Epique, if you are doing it sealed. With us higher excursion, it should give you more than enough bass while allowing some DSP if necessary.
Excellent💯👍👍👍
Quick question, when you take the speaker kHz reading to figure out crossover point do you break in the tweeter first? I only ask because the Dayton reference tweeter I used was really bright for the first few hours until it breaks in. It was very very noticeable.
That's a good question. I had the same problem with the tweeter is sounded wild but it tamed down and the woofers just got better sounding.
What did you learn to reach that level? Like topics highlight....soooo greaaaat
Hi Nick! I built the speakers this winter and I really enjoy them! 💫
I'm using rePhase to do phase correction and I was hoping you could help me out:
- Tweeter crossover; "LR 12 dB/oct" @ 1600 Hz (third order, 18 dB/oct, not an option in rePhase)
- Box; "vented low Q" @ 45 Hz
Are these the correct settings to use? "Inverted polarity" turned on.
I see the PR's tops out at 125 W, do I damage the PR's if I hypothetically feed the full 480 RMS to each speaker?
I've never build DIY speakers, so how would these speakers compare to something off the self? Can they compete with elacs, kef, wharfedale etc..?
The answer is yes and no depends on what you mean in terms of sound yes in terms of cost no especially bookshelf speakers
I make an 8 inch two way bookshelf speaker for about 300$ a pair (my cost) sounds great I have sold a few
My 8 inch 3 way bookshelf I can make for about 450 a pair (my cost)
People love them I've sold many
The real cost savings in diy speakers are the big boys
My floor standing speakers are each one has 2 8 inch woofers
two 8 inch planar mid range speakers and four 3.5 inch planar tweeters I built these for around 1100$ on cherry live edge slabs 1.5 inches thick they are open baffles on the top woofers in a box
If you have a passion for music and a little carpentry skills then read up about crossover design and try a small cheap set first and go from there
My first three way was built of nominal pine wood (cheap at home Depot) with cheap drivers that matched in spl. So crossover would be easy to design and ohms 🙂
First try no good 😊 second try on crossover much better
And they were built with a circular saw and drill only power tools I used
So if you have passion give it a go if not buy yourself some good ones and be happy with them
My floor standing speakers are probably in the 3-4 thousand dollars range but I'll never sell them I love them
Best of luck to you
Is the crossover for the MTM configuration included in the plans?
It is not, I never built a MTM. Having said that, there's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
I was wondering about logging issues. I been reading that some designs are 2.5 . I was trying to design a tmm and I been reading about that so I was wondering how you dealt with combing issues. Thanks
That is a great question. A lot of this has to do with the crossover point and the size of the drivers used. When used in a 2-way these two drivers act like one driver. And as such you can minimize most of the issues by crossing over low enough. Think of it as a typical two way just using a larger woofer. I went over this in more detail in my latest build The Rule Breaker. Also Jeff Bagby talks about it in more detail here: techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way I would highly suggest you watch the Rule Breaker, as it is a very unique design that shows the power of how the crossover point can have a dramatic impact on speaker performance.
@@Toid thanks I appreciate the response. I was going to try to design a tmm or mtm but I was reading about that issue and I want to make sure I don't have that problem.Thanks again.
Hi tod, Is it possible to make the port part of the stand so you can skip on the passive radiator without losing soundquality?
Good info after watching the build. One issue you can have with a design like this is phase issues in the vertical off axis because the centre to centre distance from the tweeter is mid way between the two woofers. Danny Richie always corrects for this by converting to two and a half way, crossing he tweeter to only the upper woofer and let the lower woofer handle the lower mid and bass. But this might be problematic with these dual voice coil drivers. But it looks like you got a good crossover design here. Did you measure vertical off axis ?
Great point! I watched this because I’m designing a 2 woofer 3 way and am trying to figure out if I need to do a 3.5 way. I’ll be crossing them at around 1000hz.
@@alexw890 watch the various upgrade videos of (mostly Klipsch) speakers on GR-Research channel to see the effect of not doing the 3.,5 way. makes a big impact
After adjusting the wiring of the woofers to make them 4ohm and with the tweeter being 8 ohm, will these work with a vintage amp that is rated at 8 ohm output?
Hi. Can a port ie dia and lengthy size make up (correct) for a woofer enclosure that should be 66 Litres as per the spec recommendation but is only 56 litres ? Cheers
great info thanks I want to build some speakers along the line of a ADS speaker 780 or similar, is it best going with new drivers or starting with used ADS drivers ...?
With speakers that old, you would be better off starting with new drivers. Most likely the old drivers would need to be repaired.
ok thanks . I have a set of Klipsch kg4 , I like them but don't LOVE them ...( I have limited experience with high end speakers) want to build something nicer maybe softer..? I'm a cabinet maker by trade so I know I can build a nicer box :) @@Toid
Any chance of re-doing the PR Voxel with the 5" Epique? It seems like it would be an amazing '2.0'. Would it be just a drop-in, or would the box size have to change? I've tried to WinISD this myself, and I just can't wrap my head around everything. 😕
Probably when the new passive radiators come out for it.
I second this, I saw parts-express has them now. Would be great to update your epic design to support them. Also,
What kind of power would be ideal for these? Saw your video about the upstream plate amp and that if it had enough power for these would be great to utilize if it’s ample power for these?
I thought that different drivers are supposed to be in separate chambers for good sound quality. But it seems like it's ok to mix and match in the same enclosure? Like your tweeters sharing the same air as your woofers. Could you maybe explain how you decide the size of the enclosure in this kind of system? WinISD only seems capable of 1 type of driver at a time. I am struggling to find good info on how you design this type of arrangement.
That’s a great question. You are absolutely correct. However, a Tweeter, like this is already in its own sealed enclosure. A.k.a. the Tweeter itself is sealed. In general, most tweeters are sealed. Since the woofers are being crossed over together, they act as one woofer meaning they can share the same cavity. If I was doing a three-way with a Tweeter, mid range and woofer, than the tweeter can share the same cavity as either the mid range, or the woofer. since it’s already sealed. However, the woofer and mid range need to be in their own separate cavities. I’m WinISD, you would measure each one separately. These are good questions, and if you have more like it, you should join the forum at www.toidsdiyaudio.com/forums
@@Toid Awesome thanks for the clarification on that! That makes much more sense to me now.
u should do studio monitors and there caparison by budget ...example building budget yamaha hs8 to adam x7 barefoot etc etc
@telegram me 👉@MrToidsDiyAudio stop trying to scam people ! This is not me!
from what i heard it doesnt matter if you wire in parralel or serries, the speaker efficiency doesn't change, only the amplifier load changes, since the coils are still the same, 8 ohm coils less sensitive, than 4 ohms, just by rewiring them in parralel only makes the amplifier receive 4 ohm load, but the speakers individual sensitivity should still be the same, or am I wrong ?
I think you’re getting a little confused. There’s some basic principles that can help you with this math. Just by adding one woofer you get +3 dB in sensitivity. However, adding that particular woofer will either increase or decrease the impedance. If our impedance increases (as in the number goes up), we will lose 3 dB in sensitivity. If our impedance decreases, we will gain an additional 3 dB in sensitivity. So if we took two 4ohm drivers and added them in series, we would get +3 dB for adding an additional woofer and -3 dB for now getting in an 8ohm load. For a net of 0 dB increase. However, if we were to wire them in parallel, we would get +3 dB for adding an additional woofer and an additional +3 dB for lowering our impedance to two ohm for an increase of +6 dB. So you’re partially correct in the essence that you have to take into account the added woofer plus the impedance change to know if you’re getting any sensitivity increase.
Have you done anything applicable to 2 or 3 way near field studio monitor?
hi , i love your videos man . i learned a lot from you . can you tell me whats the differences in the MTM crossover and TMM crossover or make a video about that ? thanks for the video .
Thank you. There is no difference in the crossover themselves, assuming the TMM is a 2 way like this versus a 2.5 way. In the case of a two way a the signal of an MTM and TMM would both be spilt between the woofers and the tweeter. However, that doesn’t mean they use the same crossover. Once you start rearranging the drivers, you can change the phase relationship. So you need to take that into account when you design a custom crossover. So, although they will be the same type of crossover, they won’t necessarily be the same crossover.
As a hifi noob these videos are a lot to take in but incredibly helpful so thank you so much!
I do have a question and that is about impedance. When using 2 woofers and 1 tweeter does the impedance have to match or not? Can the crossover take care of the difference? And what difference do you get in sound when they are different?
For instance, an 8 ohm tweeter and 2x 4 ohm woofer in parallel making the 8 ohm... Or what if you only have an 8 ohm tweeter and 2x 8 ohm woofer available? Can you still make this work?
That’s a great question. I actually did a video on that explaining it here: ruclips.net/video/MMTGDiLjsZ0/видео.html The short answer is yes. But it’s a little more complex than that
@@Toid Thank you! I understood some of that video haha. I always thought impedance of the drivers should match and not only between the complete speaker and the amp.
Is it possible to have a 3-way crossover but then have 2 outputs doing tge same thing? So then basically you separate the woofers but they each receive the same signal.. Sorry if it's a dumb question
Thanks for the explainer! If the box size and tuning weights were properly adapted, would the 7" drivers work well in this application, or would the high-end of the woofer suffer, needing a different crossover design?
The 7-inch would probably work fine, however your main issue with the 7 inches it already has a baffle step compensation built into it. I think if I remember correctly I should do very well on something like a 10-in baffle. Anyway, by adding a second 7" Epique you will get a rise on your low end down to your baffle step.
@@Toid thanks for your reply. I keep coming back to this great video as I read and learn more. Do you think the Puntkilde tweeter would work well for this application as well w/r/t linearity and power delivery or would you worry that the 30W limit wouldn't be enough for home theater HiFi?
I have no idea what you said, but somwhat understand it. Is there a parts list for these speaker and or drawings?
Very cool accept odd choice to not do mirror symmetry w the side port type speakers 😢 that would make way more sense for diy especially.
There’s a passive radiator on both sides. So a total of four passive radiators.
@@Toidyeah but I mean would look and sound better (?) if they were mirrored
I am interested on building this. Just curious if it has xo or included in the plans.
It does have the crossover diagram in the plans as well as links to the parts. If you have any issues with it you are always welcome to email me if you need.
Sick build as always! Just woulda choosen a different PR as it's limiting the speaker.
Yeah the passive radiator was kind of a compromised on this build. Honestly it gets louder than I needed to so I don't need more power. The major issue was once you go to a different passive radiator that works with full power tell me you're spending a significant more amount of money. However when the epique passive radiators come in, I'm sure tha I'll try them in it. According to Zarbo audio projects latest , they should be relatively similar price to these. If that is the case, that should be an easy swap out.
@@Toid Yea sadly PR's are super overpriced. It's absolutely insane how they are always priced.
Where's the video for the Epic HiFi crossover design?
Could I substitute a single Dayton Audio RSS265-PR 10" Reference Series Aluminum Cone Passive Radiator in place of the (2) 8 in passive radiators?
No, 2 opposites PR cancel vibration
thanks you 🙏
If you visit Thailand please let me know ❤
Are these going to replace your Jtr 212 Fronts in your theater?
They are not
Nice video, have watched a few of yours. Question...is there any better programs than WinISD for box design? I can't seem to get WinISD to work no matter what I do. It "red lights" every driver, even the ones that come standard with it.
I believe you are mistaken claiming that "theoretical" gain is 6dB. 3dB gain is by double the cone area maintaining the power. Also 3dB by double the power. You add another speaker so cone area x2 but the profits of lowering the resonence by half gave you nothing cause you have to split it to two speakers now. So each 4ohm driver have the same amount of power that one driver on 8 ohm. Your gain now is just by cone area and thats "theoretical" 3dB.
Sorry for my English. Love your show in Poland!
So you get the three decibel gain like you said by putting the second driver in. You also get the three decibels because you're basically doubling the power. The reason why you're doubling the power is previously the speaker was an 8 ohm impedance and now it's a 4ohm impedance. halving the impedance gives you a theoretical three decibel boost with the same voltage. Just gives you a total of a theoretical six decibel boost.
Well let's do the math
I'll bring specs to something that gives us simple results ok? Dayton is 8ohm total so
8Ohm = 100w power for 1 speaker =90dB
Now let's add another speaker and you end up with total 4Ohm impedance so
4Ohm = 200w power for 2 speakers =
200w divide by 2 is 2 x 100w so 90dB + 90dB = only 3dB.
And that's it. Nothing more you can add to this.
If You would double the speakers and than double the powet for EACH one of them, than;
2 x 200w = 2 x 93dB = 96dB but that's not your case. You did double the power but than split it on two... No gain here.
@@danielczajkowski7702 we measure sensitivity at 2.83v since amplifiers have a constant load. Both woofers are going to be receiving the same voltage. Since this is the case you follow the formula 20 log(2) which is a little over 6db theoretical boost in sensitivity. You appear to be talking about efficiency which is a different concept than sensitivity.
@@Toid it has more to do with the crossover right? It's not about real efficiency but more about crossover integration if i see it right? But i have come to this video because i was curious about the midrange, how does it sound compared to other woofers?? Nice build!!!
Don't you have to make that TMM configuration 2-1/2 way design?
No. That’s a very common misconception
@@Toid Have you measured vertical off-axis frequency response? Usually such designs demonstrate very large dip around crossover frequency at 30, 45 and 60 degrees above the axis. As I recall, Vance Dickason also suggested either 2-way MTM or 2-1/2-way TMM.
@@IliyaOsnovikov Yes and it is a common misunderstanding that has led to treating this s as a rule. Instead of explaining it myself, I’ll steer you to Jeff Bagby who, is believed to be the creator of the cascaded 2.5 way crossover. Look at post 5 by Jeff to get a better understanding; techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
@@Toid Thanks! I'll check it out.
Time to re-do the Uglies with the E180HE
That would be pretty Epique 🤣😂🤣
Find myself wondering if you have ever thought of designing an active crossover speaker?
I been building some speakers and I am interested in building these but I want to know if they sound good for music
I want to build a set using the 7 inch epique drivers but I can't find any decent apps for design. Any ideas?
The best thing to do is buy some measurement equipment and get on the forum. From there we can help you once you have your measurements. Without your measurements, we’re just making some educated guesses that may or may not work out in your favor. www.toidsdiyaudio.com
link broken Amazon Loudspeaker Design Cookbook...page not found
Thank you! Here is the update link: amzn.to/3UiWEcI
Are they for sale (either the cabinets or the final product)? Thanks!
How do I configure the enclosure if I wanna run both with 250w amps each
Cause the passive radiator can only handle 125w each
A passive radiator don't use power
@@roygriend5143 every passive radiator has a limit with what wattage speaker its paired with
a rough way to know its max limits
@@Divyesh_Sinha ok, thanks, why don't you use a bigger passive? You can use 2 each side? There are even higher xmax PR i think. Sundown audio, jlaudio ..al those extreme subwoofer brands!
Have you considered doing a mass loaded transmission line design? They are more involved than a sealed or ported design, but programs like Hornresp do all the heavy lifting, as it were. I find that not only the bass quality and extension are top notch - but also the midrange sounds completely "unboxy". So soundstage is fantastic.
The main issue with mltls is that they're massive. And you can generally get better results from using a larger woofer in a ported or even sealed box that's the same size. Tho there are definitely applications where it's the best option, it's fairly niche
@@blakebrockhaus347 I have designed several and no, they are not massive. As I said they have the best bass extension and quality that I have heard.
My latest design called MLTL-6 uses a 6" paper cone woofer from SB Acoustics, and is essentially flat in room to ~32Hz. It is 21.5"H x 9"W x 16"D, so not small certainly, but not huge. I have a tower version, that should extend to ~28Hz (flat in room) which is 1 meter (39.375") tall x 8"W x 14" D - which is pretty slim, actually.
Getting more extension from a smaller woofer has a big advantage - a smaller driver has lower Mms (the driver I use is
Elliott designs and I talked about doing one. But we haven't yet.
@@Toid That would be great. I think that mass loaded transmission lines are *much* better than they used to be; because we now have programs to design them. The placement of the woofer inside the TL, plus the right taper extends the bass lower for a given woofer.
If you're interested, I would be happy to share my plans for the MLTL-6 with you. It is a 21.5" high stand mount 2-way design; with a 6" paper cone woofer & 1" soft dome tweeter. Total cost of drivers is ~$150. It has 3 internal baffles plus a brace.
The woofer I am using has an Fs of 35Hz, while the fundamental frequency of the speaker is 32Hz. The driver is 89.5dB sensitive, and I haven't measured it, I think the speaker is possibly more sensitive than that; because the output from the back of the driver is utilized.
Hi. I bought you build plans and was trying to assemble parts. Would it be possible to use 6-1/2” passive radiators rather than the 8” you have spec’s? If so, would it affect the crossover at all, and how? The Dayton DAS 215 PR 8” passives are back ordered for 3 months. Looking for another option that isn’t too expensive. Thx. Jim
You can’t use the 6.5” but you can use the paper 8” DS215-Pr. It is a perfect replacement. No changes needed.
Thanks for the reply. I was finally able to find the aluminum cone versions.
HELP..! on finding 3 way crossovers...my local RadioShack went out of business in 09. they had a going out of business sale, so i got a set of Bose 10'' 3 way (mid-twit) speakers. they didn't have 3 way crossovers in stock. them Bose have been setting in my attic since 09. i want to DYI a set of floor speakers, ole skool style. agian, help?
Go to parts express. I turned some crappy technics into really good speakers with some new new replacement woofers and tweeters and crossovers and some reinforcement
Sound Demo!
I wanted to ask about the difference between Ported and enclosed speakers. I have been reading sealed speakers tend to sound more accurate and not "boomy". If a ported speaker that is designed with a flat response. and a similar speaker but designed with a sealed enclosure with the same low frequency response at 3db down (obviously with a larger enclosure). Is the sealed speaker going to sound more accurate as compared to the ported speaker described? Or is the ported speakers that are described as boomy simply just made incorrectly to sound that way?
That’s a tricky question to answer. In general if designed correct then, yes…maybe. A sealed speaker will still have lower group delay than a ported, which is often interpreted as tighter bass. How audible group delay is at lower frequencies is still very much a contested debate. So depending on what your beliefs are on group delay and at what delay it makes an audible difference would depend on the answer to this question. Unfortunately this is not as easy to answer.
Why did you go with a 2 way and not a 2.5 way design?
I'm just going to copy and paste my comment from up above. Here you go: There's a lot of confusion on the TMM using smaller drivers like this. Maybe I should have spent a little bit more time on that. However you can read a really great explanation of it here by Jeff bagby. Should be about the fifth comment down. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/64889-isn-t-a-tmm-supposed-to-be-2-5-way
When making a network, do not solder but use wago.
Very intriguing build. But I am a little frustrated by the fact the crossover never made an appearance in either video. You talked about tuning the passive radiator and doing a cut off on the tweeter at the point of distortion. Why not just flash a image of these proecesses. I know you intentionally held a little back as a teaser for patreon but I think the crossover was such a primary part of the speaker build that you could have at least showed it being wired up . Oh yeah and what about the sound demo?
Your patreon isn’t in the description fyi. Not easy to find
Thank you. I'll have to fix that
When is the next project to Open baffle.
Honestly an open baffle is on my list. It's definitely something I'm really interested in doing.
I was very interested in building these but I was wondering if I can drive them with my pioneer Vsx avr 80 watts rms and are they good for music. They look awesome!!!
You can run them off your receiver with no issues. Add yes they sound great with music. Feel free to ask more questions on the forum as well.
@@Toid Thank you I appreciate it and your channel. I definitely going buying those plans . I'm not sure how to find your forum. Thanks
@@BostonMike68 there’s a link in the description to the forum on the specific speakers. Otherwise, the main forum address is www.toidsdiyaudio.com/forums
@@Toid thank you I appreciate it.
Nice video,
Question.
Have you ever made something using the best parts available?
That is, scanspeak or SEAS drivers or something equivalent?
All I see are ‘ cheaper’ drivers in most DIY builds with the exception of some Troels Gravesen builds.
I would like to see something like that.
It seems like DYI speakers only are for cheaper builds.
Thanks , love your videos and explanation !
those drivers are very nice, but they are power hungry! 83db sensitivity, OUCH
wheres the sound test?
A giant patreon ad for a crossover circuit video
That speakers should be used in a acrylic glass with led blue lights.
what are the non-linear distortion figures at 90db spl on 500hz? 100hz? 1Khz?
This high excursion low efficiency driver is all about low dynamics heavy cone, with a lot of intermodulation distortion
(bass guitar modulating singers voice as an example).
I doubt this will do a clean 30hz without having 60hz and 120hz clearly apparent where your ears are far more sensitive,
a clean 20Hz is just pressure on your ears, you should hear nothing, I'll bet you will have tons of 40 and 80hz harmonics which you will clearly hear.
another one trying to dey the laws of physics
Really wish you would rep the ugly design